Cult of One: The Manipulation of Munchausen by Proxy (Part 2)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Cult's are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

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[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome back, everyone. Today we're wrapping up our interview with Andrea Dunlop, a writer, podcaster, and expert on Munchausen by proxy abuse.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_04]: If you missed last week's episode, please go back and listen now.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_04]: We talked with Andrea about the rise of Munchausen by proxy in culture with the Kowalski case and the story of Gypsy Rose.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_08]: This week, we dive deeper into the culty nature of the disorder, where it's a challenge for anyone to question the caretakers perpetrating this abuse.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Plus, we'll talk about Andrea's soon-to-be-released book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by proxy, which she wrote with Detective Mike Weber, a law enforcement veteran with over a decade of investigating crimes against children.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_08]: And before you hit play, a quick reminder. This episode will discuss themes of child abuse. So as always, listen with care.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So do you think that things are changing now that it's more of a common term since you've been involved?

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to sort of read the tea leaves on where this is going because on the one hand, and you know, because I've been at this for a little while now, you know, my book came out five years ago.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was really the beginning of me getting involved in this as an issue and sort of, you know, talking to other professionals.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I connected with that APSAC committee pretty soon after my book came out.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've really been trying to, you know, hack this for the last several years.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've seen movement, right?

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And certainly, like, the podcast, I did not start making the podcast because I thought this was going to be a big career pivot for me.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, oh, yes, like, this podcast about this horrific form of child abuse, like, this is going to be a commercial hit for sure.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, no, I did not think that I started as a passion project.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly it finding as big of an audience as it has is very encouraging because I think, like, I kind of get the sense, like, people are ready to have this conversation in a way that they weren't a few years ago even.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And certainly when I talk to my colleagues that have been at this for decades, they're ready to have a conversation in a way they definitely weren't, like, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think there is a better understanding of child abuse, you know, because we've had these revelations like the ones that we've had around child sex abuse, right, within the Catholic Church.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And the amazing reporting that was done by the Boston Globe in that case and the many, many brave survivors from, you know, that were part of these sort of systematic things like the Boy Scouts.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, those survivors coming forward has really moved our cultural understanding of that abuse forward.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think in some ways that sort of sets the stage for us being able to talk about this form of abuse.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And then at the same time, and certainly like the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case, that was a case that captured a lot of people's imaginations.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a mixed bag in terms of, like, what people learned from that story.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly, like, people having heard of it at all, that certainly helped with that awareness.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The Kowalski case is troubling because many people, many millions of people watch that Netflix film.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And the Netflix film was an unmitigated disaster.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It was developed in partnership with the lawyer for Jack Kowalski.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that was the impetus for that film.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: The producer, that was her first call.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the producer for the film, Caitlin Keating, has said this in an interview.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She was working for People Magazine at a time.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: She came across a local news story about the case.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And she called Gregory Anderson, who is the lead attorney for Jack Kowalski.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was how she got involved.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, that all makes sense because this is really and essentially a PR vehicle for their lawsuit.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It came out before that went to trial.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And, I mean, it's just, it's a disaster.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know how, I mean, I presumably they have seen the same documentation that I've seen.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how they sleep at night.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I really don't.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it seems so obvious to me.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, and it's also like it's colliding with some other things that are really interesting, I think, and troublesome.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, I think we have a different relationship.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: People have a different relationship with the medical community than they did before COVID, right?

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a huge mistrust of the medical community that was sown during COVID.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And so this sort of anti-vax movement has gotten really supercharged because of that.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of crossover with the anti-vax because that's sort of a similar, like, conspiratorial doctors are out to get us, big medicine.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: No, listen, people have every reason to be suspicious of, like, big pharma, right?

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I'm talking about.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But this sort of, like, doctors are out to get us that really kind of took hold during COVID and this just mistrust and politicization.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we're just going to pretend I said that right.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_08]: To your point, they're in the crossfire right now of, like, disinformation.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 100%.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, the way that this crosses over, and this really came to the fore in the Kowalski case, especially because it happened in Florida, which, like, many lovely things about Florida.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But Florida is kind of Florida, and this is the most Florida case that ever Florida-ed.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this has really gotten attached to the parents' rights movement.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is right along that continuum of the, like, the don't say gay bills, the book banning, the moms for liberty.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these are really the same people, and they're getting support from, you know, that faction of people, right?

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the parents.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I believe what underlies the Kowalski case and this whole sort of medical kidnapping panic that's being sown where you have all these.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's no data to support that false accusations of child abuse are happening, period, let alone going to court and ending up with separations.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I had a close colleague, Bea Yorker, who just did a mandated reporter training in California, and she shared this statistic with me that was just staggering.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So in California, and of course this will vary state by state, but I think this is, from what I've seen, pretty representative.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: In abuse cases, in confirmed cases of abuse, so not suspected, not reported, confirmed cases of abuse, 93% of children are sent back to their parents.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So only 7% of children in confirmed abuse cases are removed from their parents permanently.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: What?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's a lot of nuance here because there are cases where, like, CPS as a whole and DCF have a mandate for reunification, right?

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: To keep families together where possible.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the right thing.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are so many, you know, when we've talked about these things on the show, I had a wonderful expert called Dr. Jessica Price, who we kind of broke some of this stuff down with.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the vast majority of child removals happen for reasons that are filed under neglect, right?

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of those, you know, some cases those are, you know, really severe, but a lot of those are cases where the parents need help.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they either need help with their addiction issues or they need help because, you know, of reasons having to do with poverty.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are kids that are being removed because there's not enough food in the fridge or they're living in too small of a space or like those kinds of reasons.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You see those cases all the time.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And those, of course, hit black and brown families especially hard.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They hit poor families especially hard.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So that accounts for the vast majority of child removals.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: There's already a much smaller section of removals, like even initial removals, that happen because of abuse, period.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So really all the data suggests that we are not taking kids out of those situations enough, if anything.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So this idea that there's just this rampant false accusations coming from child abuse pediatricians and like child abuse pediatricians in places like Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania,

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: are getting drummed out of their jobs because, I mean, this is really picking up steam.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And it really goes to the sort of parents rights question.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I've come to really believe, like the quiet part that they're not quite saying out loud is that I think that there are people who believe that the state should not be able to intervene, period, end of sentence.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So they want parents to just be able to bring their child to the hospital, whether they beat them up or they're medically abusing them or whatever, and the doctors to treat those children and send them on home.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they don't believe that there should be intervention by those doctors and then on behalf of the state.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's the other thing that gets very muddled up.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Doctors don't remove children.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't make that choice.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have that.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they have influence with the courts.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: In my opinion, the courts don't listen to them enough.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But they make a report and then DCF has to do an investigation and then a judge will have to make that call to do a removal.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And even if you're doing an emergency removal where the child's thought to be in imminent danger, you still have to have a judge sign off on it.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So it is not it's not coming from the doctors alone.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, I mean, it's really I do think that there are people that just want to take us back to, you know, sort of pre 1960s, how things were where corporal punishment was accepted and people really didn't.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a sort of there was a landmark paper called the Battered Child Syndrome that came out in the 60s where it was like our first recognition kind of as a culture.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, like maybe people shouldn't beat their kids up.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like maybe if you're beating your kid up bad enough that they end up in the hospital, like maybe that should be against the law.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Like maybe we just shouldn't do that.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So I think there are people that just want to take us back there, much like there are people that want to take us back to where we used to be on, you know, like reproductive health care for women.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is sort of part of this like backwards momentum that we're seeing in this country in some groups where it's just like, no, children should be seen as the property of their parents, not as individuals with human rights of their own.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And sure enough, if this Kowalski case stands up, that's it's going to take us there.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's this kind of like slow slide in the way that we saw Roe v. Wade get chipped at over years and years and years.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And sort of we like didn't realize it was happening.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was kind of these lower court decisions and there was precedent set here and there.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And and that's sort of how these things go.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, unfortunately, we are heading in that direction.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that is not just a Munchausen by proxy thing.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That is the majority of these cases of sort of like, quote, heavy air quotes, like the false accusations are people that just bring their kids in with a whole bunch of fractures.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And they do an MRI and they see evidence of other, you know, healed fractures and just like medical evidence of abuse.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And then those parents say, oh, well, no, my my kid just fell out of their chair or something.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And their story doesn't make any sense.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And when you read the police reports, you're like, oh, this makes no sense.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like as a parent, you're like, you do not need to be even a medical.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You like you read what the parents said happened to the kid.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, oh, well, we brought her in because she had a bruise on her face.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't even know she had these six other broken bones.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, that doesn't make any sense.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And Take Care of Maya featured four of these other parents who also said they were falsely accused.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I read their police reports and they were horrifying.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So it really it's really scary.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really scary.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Kulti listeners.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_04]: As you probably know, because we talk about it all the time, Nippy and I are working together on our manuscript for our first book together.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So romantic.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: My first book, Scarred, has sold tens of thousands of copies worldwide and prompted fascinating conversations with people in very similar culty situations.

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[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, don't hand over all your power to corporate goliaths.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, traditional publishers, you're a little bit culty.

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[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Enjoy.

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[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_08]: How are you sleeping, Sarah?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, like a baby.

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[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Nowhere near that.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And by the way, I think we could just riff without a script about the gummies.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_09]: No thanks, chat GPT.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_10]: If that's your real name anyway.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_10]: Mmm, well played.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone knows that Nippy and I love our gummies.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_10]: Loving them gummies.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Gummies for really every occasion.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_10]: Every occasion.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_10]: Which is your favorite, Sarah?

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[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm glad it's discreet because I wouldn't want my neighbors to know that I do enjoy partaking in gummies.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your favorite, Nip?

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_08]: My favorite is Cloud9 for relief and Revive for relief.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_08]: And I actually like to do it before I go work out.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Relief from what?

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_08]: From you?

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: The stress of life?

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The stress of just being a dad in the world?

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I like to do it before I work out.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so the Revive has CBD, CBG, L-theanine, which is so good for you, reishi mushrooms.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I personally like the focus because we're writing this book and I can barely stay on track.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Squirrel, what are we going to do now?

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we're writing a book.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Focus makes me just hone in.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_04]: It's partly, I think, the Lion's Mane and the B12 that just is like, I don't know, I've never done Adderall,

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_04]: but I feel like it's a natural form to keep me in the zone.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_08]: They have some for some hanky-panky too.

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[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess we're going to save that for our date night.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

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[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm little, so I like to microdose.

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[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Now let's get back to a little bit CULTI, shall we?

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't imagine this would, like, you know, I've obviously been doing this podcast for three years now.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't imagine this would overlap into the space that we've been focusing a lot on,

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_04]: which is evangelical, you know, sort of, I don't even know the word for it,

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_04]: but the Christian, not all Christians, not all Christians, not all Christians,

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_04]: saying that five times for my Christian followers,

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: but, like, everyone gets all up in arms talking about the, I don't have a word for it,

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_04]: the fundamentalists.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm trying to figure out the extreme right.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_08]: The extreme right, yeah.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: The scary Christians.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I, yeah, I feel like I have the same, right, when this has come up,

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and we had a very, you know, we had a very religious family, the Weyburns,

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: who he's also the sheriff of Tarrant County, Bill Weyburn.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, did I have on my bingo card that I would absolutely adore,

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, a Republican sheriff of Tarrant County?

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, I did not, but I love his family.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And he has been so strong on this form of abuse and so supportive of Detective Mike Weber's work,

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and he is the adopted father of a Munchausen by proxy victim.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, so, like, we talk to them a lot about their church and their faith,

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and, like, I think we all recognize that, like, these can kind of fall into, like,

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: when you say Christian, I think a lot of us kind of lean in and you're like,

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: okay, which type are we talking about?

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Are we talking about the—

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_08]: There's 30,000 factions.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, right.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, like, do as Jesus would do, love thy neighbor type of Christian?

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, or are we talking about, like, the scary we hate trans people, children?

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And beating your wives because they're the property of the man.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, and I just got off the phone with God, by the way, and he said—

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he said I should sleep with you.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Those are the extremes that you don't care.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though she's 12.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Christian nationalists, right?

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that's the other, like, extreme that we're talking about of people that want to make us, like, a Christian nation in that way.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that is a very different thing than—yes.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, to your point.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Those people leave little room for civil discourse on their ideas.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and we've covered a lot of that in our podcast, and I've certainly learned a lot.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't see this overlap.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But the other thing I didn't put together until reading your book and researching is, you know, and people ask, like, why are these all mothers?

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And the sort of conclusion I've come to, and I want to know if you agree, is this, like, you know, there's not a lot of places—okay, let me back up for a second.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_04]: This podcast is about abuses of power, right?

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, we've seen, thanks to the boy scouts and the lights that's been shown there and all these different areas where men are not, you know, creepy dude in the corner.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_04]: They're the coach and the cub leader where these men have the power.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the area where women have power.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_04]: The very sort of one area where they don't get—like, if Nippy questions me about my mom's stuff, I'm very mad, right?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, this is my domain.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's certain things that I feel very protective of.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_04]: This is true, so I can imagine out in the world that this is—I don't know.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_04]: This is your area of expertise.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Is this—am I on the right track here?

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You are right on the money.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we do make that parallel in the book, right, where we had to come to that revelation about child sex abuse where it's like, no, no, it's not a scary stranger.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's far, far more likely to be a priest, a coach, a boy scout leader, someone in the family, someone who is in a trusted position.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I agree with you that I think, like, we do give women, by and large, a very limited sort of sphere of influence.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think motherhood is the one place where women are not questioned.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that is on sort of both sides of the political spectrum.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's really interesting to me, my collaborator on the book, Detective Mike Weber, he and I have quite different politics.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's so interesting to see, like, how aligned we are because we're like, yep, both sides are real bad on this sort of for their own reasons.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think on the one side of the spectrum, you have, like, the sort of, like, don't question women, right?

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't undermine women.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't—and sort of that's where this falls in of, like, oh, you're attacking this mother.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a—like, people will say this to me, and I got in a big, like, beef with a podcaster when I was doing the Kowalski season.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But sort of like, oh, this is a sexist accusation, right?

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: This is pathologizing female behavior to say that this is abuse that is predominantly women.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I see where people are coming from with that, right?

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, like, the medicine and women, I mean, it doesn't have a good relationship.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to tell at least Sarah that because, like, every woman has had bad experiences with the doctor where they were sort of, like, questioned about their own experience, where they were talked down to, where they were condescended to.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: There's, like, basically, like, we didn't start studying female bodies until, like, the 90s, you know, which is when women were officially included in clinical trials.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, when you go through pregnancy, it's like, okay, this is something, like, roughly half the population does and has been doing since the beginning of time.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it's such a mystery.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We just don't know why that happens.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like, yeah, there's, like, reasons to think that.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not what's happening, right?

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the data that we have is that it's primarily female.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's for those cultural reasons, Sarah, that you're pointing to.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we just, this is the area where we give women the power to abuse.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think, this is my feminism.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Women, I think, inherently can be just as evil as men, right?

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, women are not benevolent.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, that's where we see the sexism on sort of the other side of the political aisle playing in, right?

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Where it's like, you get onto this sort of, like, more conservative sort of right-leaning people.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's sort of this belief of, like, motherhood is this sort of sacred calling.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And all mothers are good.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, motherhood makes people good, right?

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's actually kind of a cultural belief that we all have to some level of, like, oh, we have Mother Mary.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, yeah, and it's like you aren't necessarily benevolent if you are a mother.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, one of the things I hear from people the most about, I hear from a lot of Munchausen by proxy survivors,

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: but I hear from a lot of other people who just had abusive moms, who had, you know, moms that were narcissistic,

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: or moms that had borderline, or, you know, for whatever other reason were, like, emotionally abusive.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And they said it's just what these people are describing, you know, what these survivors are describing just resonates so much with me.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we just don't recognize that women can be abusive because we have, like, a much more narrow vision of, like, what women are, especially what mothers are.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And so perpetrators really exploit that.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, yeah, I agree.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think if we lived in an equal society where women had as much access to power as men,

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: then I think you would see women abusing it in more similar ways that men abuse it.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you would see more female cult leaders.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you would see more of these other sort of types of abuse playing out.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think this is where we give women power, and so this is where they abuse that power.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unchecked.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unchecked.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Totally unchecked.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_08]: It goes to my line, hate is colorblind and gender neutral, right?

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_08]: So it would look probably malevolent more in emotional realms, I would think, since they don't really dominate the physical realm.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that's kind of what Munchausen is.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_08]: It's an emotional abuse strung out over a long period of time.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Niffy, I think you're on point there that the emotional abuse and the psychological abuse, I mean, that's the other thing that where when you look at the experiences specifically of survivors,

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think everyone around a perpetrator gets caught in somewhat of a cult-like dynamic.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But for the survivors of it, for the children, you know, it is an intense cult-like dynamic.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_09]: That's me.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_09]: I was just saying, it's awful.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and if you guys are parents, like, who would it be easier to manipulate than your own child, right?

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, I mean, we all do this to a degree, right?

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you're like, oh, don't do that.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, I mean, that's what sort of, like, fables and fairy tales are about, right?

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like about, like, trying to get kids in it.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And most of the time, we're trying to get kids to not do things that are, like, dangerous, right?

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, don't go into the woods.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Meanwhile, we're lying.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_08]: We're like, no, your iPad's broken.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, nope.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not charged.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, it's broken.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not charged.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, right.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So we all do.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We all do.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't know where it is.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_12]: A little bit of this.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, to our kids.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, if you were inclined to, you know, you really, like, especially, again, with young kids,

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you really shape their entire reality.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, everything your kids believe about the world when they're little primarily comes from you

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: because you are the biggest influence on them.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're the biggest influence on them for quite a long time.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is why, again, you see as these kids get older, they're giving them IEPs, the individual

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: education plans, and they're separating them from their peers.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And they are often pulling them out of school and homeschooling them.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They are not letting them participate in activities that they normally would do.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's all those things to sort of cut them off and maintain that control because,

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously, that does get harder as the kids get older.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's easier when they're younger.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But they're controlling everything that they're – you're already controlling what your kids see, hear, who they interact with.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like you're just perfectly positioned to be a cult leader to your child if you were so inclined.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And so these kids really, like – I mean, one of the saddest things, and we went in depth in season four in a –

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: following a survivor's journey of just really trying to, like, unpack this and figure out.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like they end up – and a lot of times people don't realize that they were victimized until they're in their, like, 20s, 30s, 40s, beyond.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they have some, like, revelatory moment.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they go back and try and get their medical records.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And often they'll find out that their parent was reported or doctors did try to intervene or, you know, there were people that tried to help.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's tough.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, they've believed all their life that, like, they would die young, that they had this horrible belief, that they couldn't do yoga, that they couldn't run, that they couldn't do –

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just like that you can't do this, you can't do that, you'll die if you do that.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're often told, right, it becomes, like – it becomes really complicated when kids get a little bit older.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was, like, really sad to see in the Maya Kowalski case that, like, I don't know why she's 18 now.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what she truly believes.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think she probably – you know, obviously you don't want to believe.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think if you – it was hard enough for me to accept that, like, my sister was doing this.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: To believe that your own mother did that to you and the person who's supposed to love you and protect you more than anyone on the earth – no shade to dads, but, like, moms obviously are in a very, you know, special role.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that they could not care about your well-being, not care about your life and just sort of use you for their own gains.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a horrible thing to come to terms with.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And so people will often really resist it.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And you see people that just, like – again, there are survivors that no matter what evidence they're presented with will not accept what has happened to them because it's just too horrible.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, you see them really – they're really disconnected from their own bodies in this really heartbreaking way where, like, they were told over and over again, you're sick.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You really have these symptoms.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to cough when we're at the doctor.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to say you do this.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to say – you know, you have to make sure that they know that you're in pain because otherwise they won't believe you and then you'll die.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is what survivors are often being coached at home.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I was wondering how they got them to do – how, like, yeah.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And so then, you know, when they do break out from the dynamic, then they have no idea what's going on with their own body.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And so – and, like, the brain-body connection is very complicated and very strong.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if your brain has developed these neuropathways of thinking that you're sick and believing you're sick, you might feel sick.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You might feel pain because your brain's telling you to.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's extremely complicated.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And for someone to pathologically mess with that from the day you are born, it really wires people to not be able to, like, be in touch with their own bodies.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That's so cool.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Very heartbreaking.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_04]: For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I narrate the audio version, and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Cult-y sponsors.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Need a break from the crowded stores and endless gift lists?

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Not really.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Nope.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Haven't even started shopping.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Nothing.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Nowhere near that.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And by the way, I think we could just riff without a script about the gummies.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_10]: No thanks, chat.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_10]: GPT.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_10]: If that's your real name anyway.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_10]: Mmm, well played.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone knows that Nippy and I love our gummies.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_10]: Loving them gummies.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Gummies for really every occasion.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Every occasion.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Which is your favorite, Sarah?

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[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm glad it's discreet because I wouldn't want my neighbors to know that I do enjoy partaking in gummies.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your favorite, Nip?

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_08]: My favorite is Cloud9 for relief and Revive for relief.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_08]: And I actually like to do it before I go work out.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Relief from what?

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_08]: From you?

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: The stress of life?

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: The stress of just being a dad in the world?

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I like to do it before I work out.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so the Revive has CBD, CBG, L-theanine, which is so good for you, reishi mushrooms.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I personally like the focus because we're writing this book and I can barely stay on track.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Squirrel, what are we going to do now?

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we're writing a book.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Focus makes me just hone in.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It's partly, I think, the Lion's Mane and the B12 that just is like, I don't know, I've never done Adderall,

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_04]: but I feel like it's a natural form to keep me in the zone.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_08]: They have some for some hanky-panky too.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_08]: It's called High Love.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Gets you in the mood.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess we're going to save that for our date night.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're 21 plus, treat yourself to 15% off with our exclusive code CULTI at viahemp.com.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_04]: That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_08]: We are both huge fans of Viagummies, whether it be a microdose of THC for pain relief and relaxation

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[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm little, so I like to microdose.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And Nippy's a big man, so he needs a lot more.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Double dose that.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_04]: This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_04]: If you're 21 plus, head to viahemp.com and use code CULTI to receive 15% off.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_04]: That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com and use code CULTI at checkout.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_08]: This holiday season enhance your everyday with Viagum.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Enjoy.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_08]: How are you sleeping, Sarah?

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, like a baby.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I noticed.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I got my magnesium from Bioptimizers.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for asking.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_08]: You like free stuff, do you?

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Duh.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I love free stuff.

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[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Night, night.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Sweet dreams.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Break time's over, people.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a good one.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, one of the things I love about your podcast and your book is that you really seek

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_04]: to humanize the perpetrators as well, and not to make it okay, but just to understand,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, human fallibility and where these things come from.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And especially was struck by your interview with Hope Ibarra and what seemed to be her

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_04]: recognizing that she was looking for attention and love and didn't feel it.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And she got it when her daughter was in NICU and people were all around her and supporting

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_04]: her.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And she was like, oh, this is where I can get it.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to keep doing it.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, which is really hard to imagine as a mother, but it's, I had to go there to try

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_04]: to understand it.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it's helpful.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so a couple of things.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think with the conversation with Hope certainly remains the strangest conversation

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I've ever had in my life.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was, it was intense.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It was very intense to sit down with her.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And as to how she explained it, I think in that interview, Hope is not someone who has

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: taken full accountability for her actions.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: She's doing a pretty good performance of taking some accountability, but she isn't.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the sort of dead giveaways was she talked about, oh, I was in the NICU and then

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I realized I think that kicked it off.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, okay, but what about like the fake pregnancy that preceded that?

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And what about this?

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, do you have any idea why you did those things?

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fake cancers before that.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: The fake cancer.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like in the fake cancer.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And she was just like, you know, it just kind of didn't answer, just kind of like deferred.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I sort of thought, okay, well, so that isn't where it started.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we know that's not where it started.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You were already full steam ahead by the time, like, you know, and probably the likelihood,

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, again, with the, the, another, when you're talking about sort of warning signs,

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and again, I, this, I never want to frame this as putting any onus on people who have

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: premature babies or making them feel any type of way because premature birth is quite common.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And fortunately, you know, most premature babies who are born premature do just fine.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've had friends that have had, but it's incredibly common, right?

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: To have a baby that's born premature.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: However, it is also ubiquitous in these cases.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely ubiquitous is usually where it starts.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a big red flag.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are perpetrators who have spoken to my colleague and friend, Dr. Mark Feldman,

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: who have told him exactly how they induced early labor, right?

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's definitely my belief that like, it's not a coincidence.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it's what kicks it off.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that where you see it in cases of child abuse, again, not in the rest of cases.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason to like, there's no reason to be suspicious of someone who has a premature baby

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: unless it fits into this overall pattern, right?

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: As an isolated thing.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's a part of a pattern.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not subtle.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not small.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not one time.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_04]: How about all five of her children are on GI tubes?

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: All five of her children, they have all three children have a mitochondrial disorder.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, that doesn't show up like any other mitochondrial disorder.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And then again, babies being born increasingly premature.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That happened in my sister's case.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That happened in Hopey Bar's case.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That's happened in so many cases I've looked at where it's escalating over time, right?

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like you have a baby born at 35 weeks and then you have a baby born at 24 weeks,

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: which is like extremely premature because then that gives them legitimate issues to begin with, right?

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So any baby that's born really early.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It legitimizes anything else after that.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Is going to have some breathing issues and developmental delays, some gastrointestinal issues,

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: which again, absolutely ubiquitous with the gastrointestinal issues in these cases.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, Hopey Bar, that was not where it started.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We know that's not where it started in her case.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_04]: But you still tried to humanize her there, which was-

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, no, and I am.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I also think she said some things that were pretty insightful.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was what like, I think sometimes, you know, I got such interesting feedback about that

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: interview.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Like some people are like, oh, you didn't go hard enough on her.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, okay, I wasn't going to get the truth out of this woman.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that would be a fool's errand.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And if I'd gone in there and been like, hope, you got to like, you know, own up to like,

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: no, please.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She would have shut down.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't have gotten anything.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I was going in there to see if there was any insight I could get.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's just like, this is a live wire coming in with a lot of barriers to question.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Like, why would I question a mom who's coming to me for help with her child?

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Even if I do suspect something, I still have to go against the premise that this woman's

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_08]: coming in with bad intent around her child.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_08]: That's kind of a hard thing to breach.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And then to keep going with it, you know, the incentives have to be from the medical

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_08]: community, I think.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_08]: And I imagine they might have those incentives now after a court case.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_08]: So I imagine they're going back to go, hey, we have to protect ourself from this, not just

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_08]: for the child's sake, but for financial reasons.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_08]: So it seems like incentives might be lined up at this point to be more.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, unfortunately, I think it's the opposite.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think what you're seeing right now with the Kowalski case is that it's disincentivizing

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: people to report or people to follow up.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think what's likely to happen in these cases is, and this already happens to some

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: degree, but if a doctor is getting vibes, if they're getting red flags for this abuse,

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they're just going to try and get rid of that patient.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just going to try and get that person out of their practice so that they don't

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: have to have that on their plate.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_09]: That makes sense.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I mean, as you said, like it's already like, it's already just so antithetical to

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: doctors training.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And doctors are aware of this abuse, but they're not to varying degrees.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they don't get a ton of training on it.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: CPS in most states doesn't get any training on it.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just like that even within the systems that are supposed to be catching it, there's

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: not a huge awareness of it.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not trying to.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Judges don't necessarily have any familiarity with it.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's just a lot of confusion, even when these things come to court of like,

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, well, so the question I see all the time is like, oh, from judges, I've seen this

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like, well, so isn't that the doctor's fault?

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, wasn't she just doing what the doctors were telling her to do?

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, well, yes, but the doctors were telling her that based on a lie.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So like that based on false information.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're giving a doctor a completely false report of your child's health and your

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: child's symptoms, if you're saying that they tested positive for something they tested

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: negative from, if you're saying they have a condition, you know, if they walk in the

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: door, it's like doctors don't retest every single little thing that's in a child's

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: medical history.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And those reports end up getting written down.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like these lies can get really perpetuated throughout.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, you know, there's just confusion on every level.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, basic awareness is a good first step.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think unfortunately right now with this threat of, and that there's been, there are

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: some copycat lawsuits in the works from this Kowalski case that are really springing up.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: There's one right here in my backyard where someone is suing hospital and the police department

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and DCF and CASA, you know, for, for quote, falsely accusing her of Munchausen by proxy.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so right now I think doctors don't know what to do.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're really scared because the hospitals often end up with kids under shelter orders,

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: right?

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the Kowalski case.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She was in that hospital.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She ended up in that hospital for, I think, 93 days or something like that because they

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: couldn't figure out where to place her.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, so hospitals are considered a safe place, right?

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So if a child is in the hospital when an abuse report is called in and there has to be a

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: separation, then the state considers a children's hospital a safe spot for a kid.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're okay leaving a kid in the hospital if that is where they are when this goes down.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And so now hospitals are facing this massive liability if they keep a kid there under shelter

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: order, you know, regardless of the form of abuse that they're there for.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's also hugely problematic.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So it really, and while this all plays out in court, which is going to take a while,

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, these doctors really don't know what position they're in.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's very scary.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I loved your book.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I loved is a hard word to say.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It was hard to read, but I appreciated your book very much.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a better way of saying it.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I understand.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: People say that to me all the time when they're like, oh my gosh, I love your podcast.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't love it because I love, you know, I'm like, I understand.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand what you're saying.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I know you're not being creepy.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I understand.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And this comes out in February?

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So February 5th.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is my The Mother Next Door, which I co-wrote with Detective, co-authored with

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Mike Weber.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are covering three of his cases and really kind of just the trajectory of his

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: career.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: He has such an interesting backstory.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when I met him, he was like, oh, you're an author.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, oh, shucks.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_00]: People are always telling me I should write a book.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, no, you should.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so then eventually I ended up helping him do that.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's had such an interesting career.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a long history in crimes against children when he came to his first Munchausen by proxy

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: case.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he just really realized, which is, you know, what brought a lot of us to the

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: topic of like, oh, well, no one else is going to do this.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I'm going to do it.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you guys can probably really relate to that feeling.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, you know, like, well, this is something that needs to be done and I'm in

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: a position to do it.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's how he really has approached his work.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are not a small number of kids walking this earth because of Detective Mike

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Weber and his incredible work.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I agree with you.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: He is a hero.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: He gets mad every time someone says that.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's too bad, Mike.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Too bad, Mike.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Too bad.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Please give him a high five for us.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Real heroes respond to that that way.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It would be like, quite right.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I am.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it would be suspicious.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Your response is you're guilty of being a hero.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I felt like I was just cheering him on at so many points and then also just like so

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_04]: devastated for him at certain points where, you know, the system failed him and failed

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_04]: certain kids.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And in some places they didn't.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, I guess it's case by case.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_04]: But hopefully this type of book and this type of changes in the zeitgeist will change

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_04]: things for the better and not for the worse, like you are suspecting.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Time will tell.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm hopeful in the overall because I kind of think if you look back through the

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: history of how society moves forward and how we how progress is attained.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a straight line.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think things get real messy right before we're about to turn a corner.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm hoping that what we're seeing right now with medical kidnapping and all

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_00]: this Kowalski stuff is like maybe this is the piece where we're just like we're the very

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_00]: messy beginning of a conversation about this form of abuse.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's also like really expands into just like people from my perspective.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems so strange to me that people are able to just walk around thinking that child

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_00]: abuse, just any form of child abuse is so vanishingly rare that if someone's accused of it, they

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: probably didn't do it.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That seems hopelessly naive to me.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think like those people just haven't seen what I and a lot of my colleagues have

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: seen.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think like what anybody who's a school teacher or anybody who's a pediatric doctor,

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like I think anyone who really has any experience with these systems, like understands that

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately child abuse is just a it's just a societal phenomenon that's always been with

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_00]: us and always will be with us.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And so denying its existence is not helpful.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_09]: That's well put.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_13]: Well put.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_13]: Is there anything that you want our listeners to know?

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_13]: Where can they find you?

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_13]: Where's the podcast?

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_13]: All that stuff.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, thank you both so much for having me on.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would be game to come back anytime.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for the work that you're doing.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You guys are doing incredible work just really.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And listening to your podcast has really helped me, you know, have some framework for understanding

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_00]: some of the experiences that I've had.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Great.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So my show, Nobody Should Believe Me, we just wrapped up our fourth season and we are an

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_00]: always on podcast.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can catch our case files episodes in between seasons, which are where we talk about

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: a variety of cases and kind of issues related to Munchausen by proxy.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's called Nobody Should Believe Me.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We are also on YouTube.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We are making the YouTube pivot.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, yes, I have my, this is my fifth book, but it's my first nonfiction book,

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00]: The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_00]: again with Detective Mike Weber.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And that comes out from St. Martin's in February.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you, it's available for pre-order wherever books are sold.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's in all formats.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I am going to be reading the audio book.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Good for you.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm doing that.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you are a listener and you like my voice, just know that I will be with you on

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that journey as well.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, pre-orders are my love language.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So please, authors, we love them.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They help us out quite a bit.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_00]: They tell our publisher there's lots of excitement.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you are so inclined, ordering it early will really help me out.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Awesome.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_08]: That's great.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_08]: We are for sure on parallel missions.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, very parallel missions.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm really glad that we connected.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm glad to know you're out there.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And let's support each other in this parallel missions.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Andrea.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You're awesome.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You are also a hero.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you probably won't want to say that, but I do think it's true.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would probably push back on that, but I won't argue with you on your own podcast.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Until next time.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_08]: If you like the show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review, and subscribe

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_08]: on iTunes.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Cults are commonplace now, and we're looking at them all, and every little bit helps.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_08]: A huge thank you to Andrea for joining us on this podcast.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_08]: We learned a ton about the psychology and manipulation behind Munchausen by proxy abuse.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually did not expect the culty overlap between Munchausen by proxy abuse and the rise

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_04]: of Christian nationalism.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's almost a culty bingo card.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_08]: If you play bingo, yes.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_04]: But seriously, it's crazy.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Check out Andrea's podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me, and pre-order The Mother Next Door,

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I said it earlier.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I love the book, which sounds weird given the topic, but Andrea is truly an amazing

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_04]: writer.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you want more ways to help, Andrea is the founder of a nonprofit that deals with

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_08]: this issue.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_08]: If you want to learn more or donate, go to munchausensupport.com.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_04]: See you next time.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_04]: A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production, executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy, audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios, and our writing

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.