Desperately Seeking Soulmate: Alice Hines on Twin Flames Universe

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass, North. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go North to Snow Basin. Now on the Icon Pass.

[00:00:27] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast

[00:00:37] and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:02] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:13] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. Oops, you better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:44] You're going to have to spit out your gum. Really? Yes. This is not off to a good start. I'm pretty sure for the record that Nippy is not my twin flame. Wow. He's my soulmate. Oh my God. Kind of walked into that one.

[00:01:59] I'm never going to call my twin flame because you know what? That whole concept just chaps my ass. Doesn't work. Doesn't work. And if you don't know what we're talking about. Talking about what can put up. What can put up and all the wrong places.

[00:02:11] What can put up. And if you don't know what that reference is. That's for the people who know what that reference is. Yeah, that definitely ages us though.

[00:02:20] We would have been too old for this cult but our hearts go out to everyone who's been a victim of the twin flames universe. This is a real scammy shit show everybody. And we encourage you to go back and listen to our episode with Keely from season three.

[00:02:33] And we also encourage you to get up to speed with desperately seeking soulmate on Prime Video. I think it's worth the watch for sure. It's different. The playbooks are same. They're not the same but they rhyme.

[00:02:44] And I guess it's just going to be different iterations of the same thing. We're just happy that these groups are being exposed for what they are. You're not sure and you're like, oh maybe listen.

[00:02:55] The people I want to reach the most with this series and with this podcast, this particular episode is somebody who's like debating whether or not to join twin flames universe or whether to stay in it if you're on the fence. Please listen. Please watch the whole docu series.

[00:03:08] If you have questions talk to somebody outside of the group. Don't go to Jeff and Shahela because you're going to be seriously mind fucked. Also you see what they do to people who question them. The fact is you can't and you probably feel afraid.

[00:03:21] Here we hope that you don't feel afraid and you can enjoy this episode because we're looking at the playbook. And guess what? The playbook's the same. The stuff is everywhere. You know this, culty listeners. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[00:03:33] Speaking of which, have you watched my TED Talk on YouTube? It dropped last week. Do you think Jeff and Shahela have listened to it? I do hope someone sends it to them. We can have a dueling YouTube content. But more on that later.

[00:03:45] Back to the task at hand. We do have a great episode for you. It's a juicy juicy episode. Oh, that was so gross. Anyway, as you all know over the seasons here on ALBC, we're asking what hook do you use?

[00:03:56] Normally the first question that Sarah kicks things off. There's always a hook. Yeah. What were you looking for? Exactly. What's the promise? What carrot is being dangled? Because no one's looking to join a cult. And this is the Woken Panab episode. This is the Woken Panab.

[00:04:08] But many of us are lonely especially in this day and age during the pandemic, post-pandemic. And many of our guests have reminded us that sometimes they're looking for love and that search can land you in treacherous places.

[00:04:21] And even if you aren't looking for love, if it falls in your lap, like with Evan Rachel Wood or you've just recovered from a breakup and you're looking for some extra TLC, like with Sarma Mangelis from The Bad Vegan.

[00:04:31] Like Evan and Sarma Keeley's story has stuck with us right there. She was young, idealistic person looking for a connection. And then what? Jeff and how do you say the name? I don't care. Shalala.

[00:04:42] Jeff and Shalala, the founders and slash leaders of TFU, Twin Flames Universe, abused her. In a, a pouring way. And listen, people did give me shit about not pronouncing Shalala's name right in the episode that we do with Keeley, but I did that on purpose.

[00:04:54] It was on purpose because it was kind of my personal little fuck you to all these leaders who'd give themselves a new totally, what's the word? I don't know, but I'm sure she was mortified. What's the word?

[00:05:08] Like her name was Megan and she changed your name to Shalala. I don't know. It just rubs me the wrong way. Sorry, Shalala. Shalala, I liked you better before when you were Megan.

[00:05:18] As a result of all this, the Twin Flames Universe has stayed on our radar because even though it has been blown up and explosive reports by Vice and Vanity Fair, it's kind of chugging along and still getting that kind of no fucks given force field around them.

[00:05:31] Yeah, it was 40,000 Instagram followers of this week. It's called a narc bubble maybe. Dude, how does that happen? It turns out we're not alone in wanting to take a blowtorch to this whole shiny veneer of Twin Flames stick.

[00:05:42] I like what she did there with the blowtorch and the flames. It's kind of cool writing isn't it? Our guest today is Alice Heinz, an investigative journalist and the executive producer of a new streaming series from Prime called Desperately Seeking Soulmate, Escaping Twin Flames Universe.

[00:05:54] She sounded the cult alarm back on TFU back in 2020 in a Vanity Fair expose that is bone-chilling. The new docu-series chronicles the two founders. Jeff, he's kind of like a keto Keith Ranieri and his partner Shalala as they go from

[00:06:09] run-of-the-mill influencers to building what Vice is called a cult empire. This creepy charismatic couple promises to match members with their perfect partner, but not so fast lovers. There's a catch. The docu-series features a legion of former participants who describe tactics that are nothing short of toxic.

[00:06:24] Like looking for love? How about we coach you on the things like rapidly pursuing your axis in ways that looks like stalking? Or how about we shame you into changing your gender identity and sexual orientation? Care for a side of gaslighting and all kinds of pricey narcissistic mindfuckery?

[00:06:40] Great. That'll be $8,888 for the ultimate VIP package. Fuck that. You don't need that shit. So buckle up, ALBC babies. Here's our combo with Alice Heinz on the culty nightmare factory called Keto Keith Ranieri, aka Jeff Shalaya and the Twin Flames Universe University.

[00:06:57] By the time you hear this episode, it will be already up and running on Prime Video. Enjoy. Hello, Alice, and welcome to A Little Bit Cultie. Hey there. Thanks so much for having me. First one together in the back room. You don't know this is a big moment.

[00:07:24] We've always been in separate rooms and we're finally in the same room with our signs. So you are the inaugural official. We finally got our shit together in our podcast room podcast. That's awesome. I love it. It's fun to see you together.

[00:07:36] Yeah, well, we thought it would be appropriate for the Twin Flame episode. Twin Flame in it over here. Oh, definitely. I'm not sure if Nipi's my Twin Flame. I don't know if I believe in it, but we're going to talk about that.

[00:07:46] That was going to be my question. Let me start from the beginning for those who are just catching up with this story. First of all, welcome. So Alice, you are a journalist. You somehow came across Twin Flames. Can we start at the beginning of what hooked you?

[00:08:01] Because normally we talk to survivors and the question is like, how did you get in? What was the hook? But what hooked you to start writing about this in the first place?

[00:08:08] Well, I've been interested in internet culture and kind of what the repercussions of the internet culture are on relationships for a long time. Like I've written about online dating and I've written about polyamory.

[00:08:21] I've written about a lot of different kind of just like new ways that intimacy is evolving in our present day. And so when I found Twin Flames Universe, I read about it on a Reddit thread. You know, and some people were saying that it was a cult.

[00:08:35] And then, you know, when I Googled it, a lot of other people were saying that this is actually the way to find your one true love. And that, you know, they had found love romance, even professional success through this organization.

[00:08:46] So there was just a lot of kind of conflicting opinions about this and everyone was really worked up about it. And I was like, what is going on here? So I just was inherently curious and I started researching it. Great.

[00:09:00] And it seems like you've taken a real journey from like curiosity to being pretty certain that this is a cult or operates like one. Let's go on that journey with you. It starts with the first article.

[00:09:13] So I wrote an article in 2020 for Vanity Fair about Twin Flames Universe. And so I spent around a year reporting that article and I interviewed lots of former members. I also interviewed current members and I extensively interviewed Jeff and Shalia both on Zoom,

[00:09:31] like where they basically operate their business and recruit most of their followers through YouTube, Zoom and other social media platforms as well as in person. So I was, I think I'm the only journalist to have ever met them in person.

[00:09:44] And I actually spent a weekend at their house in like the height of COVID panic in June 2020. So that was pretty interesting. We could talk about that. What was that like? And they know that the audience when they watch it on Amazon,

[00:09:56] once it's dropped, which will have already happened by the time this drops, they'll get to go in the house with you. But what was that like for you to be writing about them and then to be in their home?

[00:10:05] It was really strange because I think I had the experience that a lot of followers have because I had watched so many of their videos online. Basically, I was binging their content and like they have such a big personality

[00:10:17] and people are so like drawn to them and kind of hanging on their every word of advice about like very intimate aspects of followers lives. And so I was, you know, watching all of this, they sell this content as kind of like a, you know,

[00:10:30] that's how they make their money and it's kind of like a therapeutic reality show. And so, you know, I had subscribed to this, I was watching it and I kind of had developed a bit of a parasocial relationship with Jeff and Shalee O'Ware.

[00:10:41] It's almost like if you watch that much content of someone, you feel like you know them, right? But you've never met them in person. So it's kind of weird. So then when I finally got to their house, like when I first got there, I was honestly,

[00:10:53] and I'm okay, I'm a pro at this. Like I've been a journalist for 10 years. Like I've interviewed politicians. I've interviewed like incels. Like I've done from like the 4chan internet to like mainstream politics. I've interviewed so many different people and I don't really get nervous.

[00:11:07] But when I first showed up at their house, there was a bit of like nervousness and I had to hide it because I was like, okay, you just got to be casual, like build the relationship, basically get them comfortable around you, a stranger being there.

[00:11:21] But yeah, there was something really weird about it. Just having these figures who you see, who you've watched so much just come to life and then having them try to get information out of me. Because that was something that was a big theme of my visit there,

[00:11:35] was they were trying to get to the bottom of what I thought about Twin Flames and what my article was going to say. I was interviewing them but they also tried to kind of interview me. Was that the nervous feeling?

[00:11:47] Is that the red flag or whatever it was that got you nervous or was it just being out there isolated? Yeah, I was nervous because I was there alone and a lot of people think they're co-leaders. Like I didn't know what they were capable of.

[00:11:59] That's a bit of a scary situation. I actually did a location share on WhatsApp with my editor and with my fiance because I was like, I just want someone to know where I am. And I was like, going to do regular check-ins with those people,

[00:12:14] my editor and my fiance, so that there wasn't a question of where is Alice or what's happening. So yeah, I was on their turf. I was in their house. That made me nervous too. They certainly have that feel. I wouldn't be scared of them personally,

[00:12:28] but they have that kind of creepy feel where like, if you're not obedient to their narrative, they might do something extreme. Yeah, I mean, look, like I went there. Journalism is about evaluating risk and assignments and there's plenty of security protocol that you do

[00:12:42] if you cover a dangerous protest or things that I've also done. So there's always a risk, but I thought it was worth it in this case because they only communicate with most of their followers online. This is an alleged cult that exists almost purely on the internet.

[00:12:59] So who are they behind the curtain? Like, who are they behind their online personas? That was a really important thing as a reporter to try to find out. So it was totally worth it. That's great. Was there a lock in your room?

[00:13:12] I was thinking, I hope she could lock the door. I stayed in a hotel. Oh, you stayed in a hotel? Okay, you didn't stay there. A few. So at this point, do you think they are a cult? Do you leave there thinking they're a cult?

[00:13:23] Like, where are you in your process of evaluating them? So I had definitely talked to a lot of followers who said it was a cult. So I was aware that it could be a cult. I think the main question that I really wanted to answer

[00:13:36] when I was at their house was how much they believed what they were selling. I think that was the thing that interested me the most because when you watch a lot of videos online, you know, it's hard to tell how much people really believe in this stuff sometimes.

[00:13:49] And that's unfortunately true of a lot of spiritual teachers, whether they're cults or not. It's like when spirituality becomes a business and people are making a lot of money on it and they're flaunting that, you know, you wonder, well, do they really believe this?

[00:14:01] And they had said some wild things on their Facebook forum that I had come across. Like early on, I came across a post in their Facebook group, which, you know, it's a private group, but anyone can just request to join. And that's what I did.

[00:14:13] You know, and they're talking about how they're the master Christ. Like, and they use this phrase master Christ. And it's a long post about how if the second coming happened today, wouldn't it be on the internet? Right.

[00:14:25] And people in the group are commenting saying like, yeah, like, yeah, master Christ. Like so happy to be following you, Jeffishly, as I was like, wait, what? This is really wild. So I knew about all of this when I showed up at their home.

[00:14:38] But, you know, you never really know again how much they believe it. But I think I came out with the impression that they're fully in it. They believe that about themselves, I think. That's the impression that we got,

[00:14:49] even when we had interviewed Keely a couple years ago or whenever that was. And then even reinforced by this documentary was that it seems like they believe it. And at least my impression was that he,

[00:15:02] and this is one of the things I think is really great about the doc. It shows quite clearly how Jeff is just looking for a quick fix to get rich. Yeah. The lack of self-awareness was staggering on that. He was overt with my poor business.

[00:15:18] And I was like, you guys support my business. Like he was saying the quiet part out loud. Yeah. To the point where it was uncomfortable. It's really weird because I feel like having spent a lot of time with Jeff.

[00:15:29] I think he oscillates between a weird amount of self-awareness. He watches all of the critics videos. Really? Yes. He reads all of the negative stuff that's said about him online. And he thinks about it.

[00:15:42] And he even did a video at one point where he is rehashing all of his critics' accusations that he's a cult leader and saying, well maybe they're right about this and maybe they're right about this.

[00:15:51] But he does it in this kind of faux ironic like online trolley way. Yeah. Where you kind of don't know whether he's like kidding or not. And at the end of the video, he says,

[00:16:02] well, okay, even if hypothetically I were to acknowledge that all of that is true, the one thing that I'm sure about is that twin flames are real. And if twin flames are real, then everything else I teach is also real.

[00:16:15] So I think Jeff really, I think he's an intelligent person. I actually think he has more self-awareness than I thought he would. But he gets himself into these logical roller coasters where he's kind of doing hamster wheels to explain to himself why he's not a cult leader.

[00:16:33] And interestingly, he watches all of the cult docu-series. He was talking to me about them when I was hanging out with him. So he's a student of it and he's telling himself that he's watching all these videos

[00:16:45] to be aware of the differences between what he's doing and what others have done in the past. But I think in reality, he's probably watching them and getting tips on how to be a more effective cult leader. And how to defend the narrative.

[00:16:58] It's like a lawyer prepping his case. He needs to know who to cross-examine and it's going to come at him with. And then he needs to preempt his audience. Like this is what they're going to say. Yeah. And he looks more omniscient in the process, right? Yeah.

[00:17:11] But he straight up lied to your face. I mean that was on camera. How did that feel when you had seen the video of him pressuring and to change her name to Dan and become a man? And then he said that he never did it.

[00:17:24] That was so interesting. So I had all of this video footage and if you watch the documentary series on Prime Video, you'll see a lot of really abusive stuff that Jeff and Shalila were doing to their followers and they were actually filming it, right?

[00:17:39] And they were selling this as part of their video package, which is just next to it. Mind-blowing. Yeah, mind-blowing. So as a journalist when I first found all of this, I was like, wow, these people are literally documenting all of their worst,

[00:17:52] all of the things that other people would think are crimes, right? So that was really interesting to me. And yeah, so in one of the videos that is of a lesbian couple named Ann and Katrina who were targeted by Jeff and Shalila, perhaps because of their sexuality,

[00:18:07] one of them was told that, you know, because she was the quote unquote divine masculine in the couple, which is a term that Jeff and Shalila kind of came up with and used as part of their abuse, you know,

[00:18:18] that she needed to change her pronouns, change her name, her kids needed to call her dad, and all of this is taped. And so, you know, when I asked Jeff about that in our interview, he had a whole crazy spin on it. He said, yeah, he denied it.

[00:18:34] He said it didn't happen even though I had the footage and I said, well, no, Jeff, like I have the footage. Like I watched the tapes and he said, well, there's what you say loud and then there's a spiritual reality behind what you say loud, right?

[00:18:47] And so I understand how if you watch the tapes, you would come away with the conclusion that I'm an abuser. I'm paraphrasing here, but it's something like that. But, you know, really what I was doing was I was giving

[00:18:58] and the power to destroy me because with these incriminating videos because I am a humble servant of God. Yeah, he had an argument like that. You get the logical twists and turns and what I was referring to before. I think that's a prime example of it.

[00:19:13] A lot of word salad out of Jeff these days. Yeah. And so because these packages and videos could be bought, is that how you were able to access all this footage? That was one of the questions I had.

[00:19:23] How did you and the team procure all of this footage? Was it because you were able to buy it? I wrote this story for Vanity Fair. Yeah. The story came out in 2020. Later on, I teamed up with Dorothy Street Pictures and Prime Video and Marina Zenevich

[00:19:37] and who's the director. Right. And we made this docu-series and so I'm up here in the docu-series as a journalist talking about my reporting process and kind of explaining my experience reporting on this. I'm also an executive producer on the project. Gotcha.

[00:19:51] So to answer your question about the footage, I bought the footage when I was reporting my story for Vanity Fair. So yes, basically they were selling this and so this was something that, you know, it was quite expensive. I think it was over $4,000

[00:20:06] for me to access this video library. It's called the Twin Flame Ascension School of Classes. Is there any concern that they will try to sue you for putting it in the documentary or no worry about that or what do you think they're going to do?

[00:20:19] I mean, you know, we're journalists and we're reporting on something that, you know, is currently happening and I think there's an absolute newsworthy element of this. Absolutely. So I think as long history of journalism speaks to, you know, this is something

[00:20:33] that I absolutely needed to be reported on. So we stand behind our reporting. Great. I stand behind it also. As you may have heard, we actually, I just listened to our last episode on Twin Flames. This morning just to like remind me of what we covered

[00:20:47] because it's so long ago. I was pretty riled up. I was pretty pissed off that this is going on because it just reminds me so much of Nextium. Well, it's more abrasive too. It's pretty brazen. Like he's saying, I school you, you don't school me.

[00:20:59] Like we didn't have that. There was a faux humbleness that went on with the people that had power in our organization that Keith demonstrated. But this guy is just flat out, I'm Jesus and I school you, which is pretty brazen and overtly abusive. Oh yeah.

[00:21:15] It's interesting how brazen they are, right? In terms of filming themselves, abusing people and then putting it online. Right. Yeah. This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons. Are you with us? Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com

[00:21:32] slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes, exclusive content and the occasional zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes. It's a lot of fun over there, people. The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family, but everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:21:53] I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism, and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

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[00:22:52] now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we? What was the decision like in regarding to who to blur and not blur? How are those decisions made? Yeah, so it's a complicated decision that takes into account the law

[00:23:05] as well as our desire to be ethical filmmakers and protect privacy while also needing to tell the story and having some of this footage be really integral in terms of showing what Jeff and Shalia were doing and how they were manipulating people and how their organization operated.

[00:23:20] One aspect of our decision to blur was to not use pre-transition images of some current members who did transition under the guidance of Jeff and Shalia just because we don't really know what their journey was and even though we know that Jeff and Shalia's methods

[00:23:38] to encourage transition are abusive, it seemed potentially disrespectful to the trans community to show unblurred image of someone before they had transitioned. So we did make that decision out of respect. And now there's proof of this pressure to... Well, maybe you could summarize it better.

[00:23:58] How would you describe what you saw in multiple videos as the ramping up of the gender changing pressure? Yeah. So I mean, though there is proof of it and we have extensive video footage of Jeff pressuring a member to change her gender identity.

[00:24:13] And so we can see their exact methods and how they manipulate people. And if you watch our series, you'll see that. I do think that the way it ramped up was that they started doing it to more people. So there were a bunch of people who were selected

[00:24:28] by Jeff and Shalia to become in these twin flame couples that were paired. So people hadn't found their twin flame, they had been paying all this money to the organization and they were frustrated that they still hadn't found love. An organization that promises and even guarantees

[00:24:44] that it will help you find your one true love. But people weren't finding it. And so what the organization did potentially as a way to keep people locked in was they said, oh, we channeled this. God told us that, you know, this person's your twin flame now.

[00:24:59] And what they did during that was unfortunately a lot of the people who were paired up, those pairings were not respectful of those individuals' sexual orientations or gender identities, right? Because part of the pairing was one of the people in the couple would be told,

[00:25:13] well, you're actually a different gender and you need to transition. And so I would say that the majority of people that I'm aware of, that did not work. The vast majority of people who were targeted in this way with this type of coercion left the organization.

[00:25:27] Right. I'm sure the few that maybe it did work for, those are now the poster children. Yeah, and it's hard to say for those people that you said, well, maybe it worked for them. It's just really hard to know what was actually the origin

[00:25:40] of someone's decision to transition. It is such a complex decision and it is a personal decision. Obviously that's why the coercion and Jeff and Shalia kind of telling people that they are the arbiters of what gender they should be, right? I mean, that's why that's so problematic.

[00:25:56] But at the same time, you can't know whether there weren't other factors at play as well for the people that are currently in the organization and identify as trans and went through this coercive process. Sure. And to be clear, when I said it worked,

[00:26:11] I mean, like they're saying that, oh, I'm happy now. That's the thing, the coercion muddies the waters. Yeah, that's right. It's just the same thing as people who stayed in XCM after we left going, no, these tools work. I'm happy. Like, okay, let me know in five years.

[00:26:25] Like they're still waking up. Also it was a business motivated, wasn't it? It was business motivated. They wanted to hit numbers, right? Well, I do think they wanted to prove that you could find love because their whole organization is about people being in quote unquote harmonious union

[00:26:41] with their twin flame and nobody was getting it. Right? I mean, there are people who had been in the organization fighting, doing all this inner work during all of these bogus therapy techniques to try to improve themselves to magnetically attract their twin flame.

[00:26:55] And then when that didn't work, Jeff and Shalia were then encouraging people to rabidly pursue their twin flames and kind of, you know, that's where all the stocking came in. Right. And then, you know, then that didn't work. So then what next?

[00:27:08] Then they started to pair people up within the organization and say, oh, actually just kidding. That was a false twin flame and this is your new twin flame. The doctor such a great job at showing how they glommed on to what appears to be

[00:27:22] a really wonderful, beautiful relationship between Katrina and Anne. Whether you call it a twin flame or soul mate or like they're compatible, they clearly have something that's special and then they use them so clearly. That's right. They sabotaged the calling card to their organization.

[00:27:38] I mean, those two people were all in and then they just went rogue on. That was so horrible too. It was awful. What was it like for you to watch them treat Katrina and Anne that way when Anne refused to change her name to Dan?

[00:27:49] I mean, that was so upsetting to me because Anne and Katrina had such a beautiful love story. Like they had known each other for years. They had both been in other relationships. They made this huge decision to finally come out and be together, you know,

[00:28:03] and after having been in heterosexual relationships for many decades and you know, they took this huge leap and they live in a conservative state and they thought that twin flames universe was the community that they were looking for was the family that would affirm their relationship.

[00:28:17] And in the end, exactly what you said, they tried to destroy their relationship. I mean, that's effectively what happened. But I love though is just that Anne and Katrina actually did make it out and they are still together today. And I think that's such a beautiful testament

[00:28:32] to love outside of coercion, right outside of this kind of culty influence. So I'm so happy we were able to capture that. I'm so glad you did. And we cheered for them and we saw they live in Atlanta, Georgia where we live.

[00:28:46] So sidebar, we want to take them for brunch or something. Well, and I also loved how the doc captured like in case people weren't certain whenever I see these types of docu-series I'm always looking at it like, you know, how are the survivors treated

[00:29:01] and how is this story told? Do they look dumb? Are they supported? All that stuff. And then I'm also looking at it from the perspective of somebody who's not been in a cult going, are they going to get it?

[00:29:11] And they're going to walk away being sure or unsure. Like there's other docu-series like, I don't know if you saw Bad Vegan on Netflix. I just didn't appreciate how the filmmakers were like, they left it up to the audience to decide if she'd been victimized or not.

[00:29:25] And it was like, I wasn't cool with that, right? So I just really appreciated how you use the text messages to really firmly show what dicks, I mean this is my words, not yours, what dicks there being. And specifically I took a screenshot

[00:29:39] about Jeff regarding Katrina and Anne saying, you guys look dumb as fuck hiding behind the lie still because you haven't changed your name. Everyone thinks you're weak, unable to change or in stark disagreement with me. So it's gaslighting and also so clearly saying you can't question the leader.

[00:29:55] And they even blackmailed them. They say that if Anne won't change her name and pronouns that they're going to take away their position within the organization as VP of sales. They ended up kicking them out of the organization altogether and they lost their entire source

[00:30:07] of income because at that point they were probably the highest earning coaches within Twin Flims Universe and the couple's entire family and income depended on them. So when they were expelled for refusing to comply with this absurd and abusive request, it was a huge thing.

[00:30:23] It was really difficult to deal with. Right. And the other lens we look at these things with is what will this look like for people watching who might still be in or on the fence? And I hope that this text from Shalia to,

[00:30:36] I believe it was Katrina and Anne saying, I hope you continue to humble your arrogance as it burns you and is leading you to your next lifetime with severe down syndrome. That's such a harmful text. Yeah. They sent text messages like that,

[00:30:48] they would post stuff like that in the open forum. Wow. Do you know how many people have left since all of this? Like do you know if this is having an effect? That's a great question. And unfortunately it's really hard to say

[00:31:00] like exact numbers because I do know that a lot of inner members have left partially because some have reached out to me, partially because you know some have since posted on their, they post online about how they're no longer part of the organization.

[00:31:13] But then also it's so hard to tell because if you go in the open forum, there's all these new people. So it's kind of hard to track membership and I would say a good number of inner members have since left with all of the negative media attention,

[00:31:28] including my article as well as the Wondery podcast and some of the other attention on the group. But then also new people are joining. And also today I would say that Jeff and Shalia are more careful about what they post online in their digital footprint.

[00:31:42] They of course are still influencers, right? They may need to post some stuff and they do, but they're not really, they're not doing the kind of intensive promotion that they were doing when I was reporting my article,

[00:31:54] which is maybe one of the reasons why they decided to talk to me. So I do think that from my perspective, it seems like they're much more focused on kind of clamping down control and proximity to the people who are already very much in the inner circle,

[00:32:09] keeping the people that are there. The playbook is always the same in terms of reactivity, what their tactics are when they get accused, how they clamped down. Was there ever a point during this where you recognize it was a cult or and considered getting a cult expert involved

[00:32:24] and getting their take on it? Yeah, I spoke to multiple cult experts. I think Yanya Lalik, I'm so sorry if I'm mispronouncing her. Yanya Lalik. Yanya Lalik, there we go. I interviewed her for the Vanity Fair article and I also interviewed Neil Glazer,

[00:32:39] who I'm sure you all know. He's our lawyer. Exactly. Yeah, no, we interviewed multiple cult experts in both the writing of the article and the making of the docu-series. So that was definitely important to us and important to me just to understand the research

[00:32:55] behind this and the typical experience and what people go through. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the knowledge is great. I mean we were fortunate enough to have people interviewing us who knew what they were looking at in the red flags.

[00:33:05] You know one of our directors had taken our training so it was really good to feel like we were in a safe place so the questions followed suit in that regard. Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's a different approach for different people

[00:33:17] but we definitely took well-being of all the participants in the series very seriously and you know in some cases helped arrange therapy for people with where that was you know something that they wanted and so we definitely very aware of that

[00:33:31] and tried to do our very best to be conscious of just how difficult it is to come forward and tell a story like this. It's also for the family members to like Shaliyah, her father that interview was heartbreaking and his take on it was so firm

[00:33:45] but it felt integrous with everything. It was really like, it was a really intelligent take on it and felt like this is my line and it was interesting that you know he treats her like his daughter's dead. It's a harsh thing to say. It's actually reality-based.

[00:33:59] It's a reality kind of integrous thing and I thought it was really emotionally brave of him to share and even you know his take on it was just hard. It was hard for me to see and felt this pain. Yeah, no, I agree.

[00:34:10] That was a super, that was just so heartbreaking for me. It was surprising too because it felt like you had a good understanding. And since you spent time with Shaliyah do you think that something like that if she were to watch it

[00:34:21] since they watched the docu series that are out there, do you think that's something like that might snap her out or is she too far gone? The thing that I've learned just interviewing people about what kind of snaps them out as you put it

[00:34:32] it's just so different every time. People's exit stories don't follow a formula and I think that's one of the things that is so difficult for family members of people in organizations like this is that they really want there to be a specific thing that they could do

[00:34:47] that will lead to this outcome but it's so personal and sometimes it'll just be something that Jeff said that you start to question for whatever reason and it's a tiny thing but then that unleashes this broader questioning and so it's just really hard to say

[00:35:02] but I do think, you know, unfortunately Jeff and Shaliyah make such a thing about being estranged from their families they talk about that on their channel and in their classes and they encourage their members as well to separate themselves from their families

[00:35:16] so unfortunately I don't know that seeing her dad mourn the loss of the Shaliyah that he, the Megan that's what her name was previously you know she changed it to Shaliyah seeing her dad mourn the loss of Megan I don't know that it will affect her.

[00:35:32] I think you nailed it and Sarah and I have this experience too some of the people that we thought would for sure be like peace out when they saw what they saw haven't and some of the people that have dug in

[00:35:42] the most and you think would never leave just all of a sudden doing about face and the rhyme or reason to it has no sort of like diagnostics of predictability whereas the abuse of power and all the things that get people in is like yep, yep, yep, yep

[00:35:57] but the leaving is case by case and it's often things that you think okay if they see this they're definitely going to leave and they just double down on something like that and then it's the craziest thing so I don't know, I mean I think the question really

[00:36:10] is how gone is their conscience at this point and how sensitive are they to their conscience if they recognize pain they inflict I think once you start to recognize that you might participate in other people's pain that is kind of the regaining of your consciousness a little bit.

[00:36:26] That maybe works for followers but do you think it works for the leaders of these organizations? I don't know. Do these people ever sincerely apologize? I mean can we really, even if they do say that they regret what happened can we really believe them?

[00:36:39] What do you guys think? I think it depends one of the conclusions we've come to is that there's people like Keith who, what they call it, took the fall became a sociopath or whatever a long time ago and planned this out and then there's people who

[00:36:52] maybe were greedy and narcissistic but believed their own whatever they're selling and then that eventually goes to their head and then they become more diabolical so I think there's two types in that way and I feel like Jeff at least Jeff and Shalila appear to be the second

[00:37:07] that has gone to their head and I feel like at this point for them to admit fault or go oh shit maybe this is wrong I actually think they're too far past that and they've got- Well something has to crash first for them to at least get sensitive

[00:37:21] and consider it. They have to get out of their butt this thing is I've really noticed and I thought the doc did a really good job at showing how much in a bubble they are if you cut everyone out of your life

[00:37:28] who's gonna say no that's not a good idea including your family including any volunteers and never mind the forced labor we should talk about in a minute but like everyone around you if you dissent if you have any dissent you're out so there's nobody saying

[00:37:40] that's not a good idea and then he's really gonna believe his own bullshit I don't know if he's a full blown Keith Minnery narcissist sociopath but he's definitely really committed to this image of himself. Yeah no I would agree with that. Yeah. Us first them is really like

[00:37:55] really what they double down on a lot If people aren't part of the community they just don't get it so it's just easy to go like well of course they're of course they don't understand like they're not taking the training like just cut them out.

[00:38:05] It's so interesting too how they responded to me because Jeff kept saying like I've never met anyone like you before like this is like I don't spend a lot of time with journalists like are all journalists like you like he was like trying to understand me

[00:38:19] and I would come into his love bombing Oh he loved on me in a huge way he channeled my past lives I was famous yeah he said I was actually I think this maybe Shalia's idea but then they ran with it like he said I was the reincarnation

[00:38:34] of Virginia Wool. Oh my God. That's so textbook like I'm going to make you feel so special you're like Alice is like me Virginia well right and they were like I think they just really thought that that was going to work on me because they are around people

[00:38:49] who that always works on right like that's who they surround themselves with so when an outsider comes in and you know I wasn't I didn't set out to write a hit piece I was trying to be objective but also there's a lot of objective evidence

[00:39:01] that they're abusing people right so I was going to put that you know I was I was not going to ignore that and it was just interesting how they just didn't really see it that way and they just treated me as if I was one of their followers

[00:39:12] like I was a potentially going to be the mouthpiece of Dwendly's Universe right and so interesting that when you wrote the article their response which is in the documentary I wish I'd love to see the whole letter if you're okay with sharing it but that was wild

[00:39:28] what was it like to be gaslit in a seven page essay or what was 7000 word essay well I think that one's still online so if you could maybe Google it the blog post they wrote in response to my article if it's not it's maybe on like archive.org

[00:39:42] or something like that but yeah I mean I guess I wasn't surprised to be honest because Jeff while I was writing the article kept telling me like you know all presses good press basically or like button dislike button it's all the same right he seemed to honestly revel

[00:39:58] in the presence of his haters like he made videos about them like he was like he made a video called like am I I forget the exact title but it had the word twin flame cult in it and not like denying it

[00:40:10] just like what's a twin flame cult or is this a twin flame cult question mark something like that and it's like okay he was really kind of trying to capitalize on the drama and the controversy and so when my article came out like it's that same playbook

[00:40:24] he's like gonna do a giant and try to capitalize and make it the biggest possible controversy ever when it's very predictable that they would respond in with a deranged nonsensical like very upset blog post yeah and we'll put

[00:40:40] that link in our show notes so people can read it for more background on what brought us here check out my page turning memoir it's called scarred the true story of how I escaped next year and the cult that bound my life it's available

[00:40:52] on Amazon audible and at most bookstores and if you want to see that story in streaming form you can watch both seasons of the vow on HBO this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga

[00:41:11] maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside in nature hashtag cold pools

[00:41:25] and I'm just a little bit of a chag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks

[00:41:35] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:41:47] so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient

[00:42:01] flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it

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[00:42:33] you can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:42:49] a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's break time's over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one I think one thing that you showed really wonderfully

[00:43:05] and was very emotional to watch was how Brianna's mother stayed strong as a lifeline to Brianna and never gave up that contact and gave Brianna a safe place to land without judgment and without like, you know, told you so or anything like that which is

[00:43:23] I think without spelling it out for people, you know, beating them overhead with it I think was a really great lesson for any parent who's lost somebody Yeah, I had a ton of respect and admiration for Brianna's mom as well and I think that you're exactly right

[00:43:37] Do you know how she's doing now because I'm sure our audience will want to know Yeah, I mean Brianna Brianna is home, she's with her family you know, kind of in this in-between phase of not being fully removed from Twin Flames Universe but starting to question some things

[00:43:53] and so I think it's just really important to know that that can last a long time It's very difficult to exit an organization that controls so many aspects of your life I mean, your whole reality is dominated by Jeff and Shalia if you're in that organization

[00:44:09] so it's a long process After the documentary drops, like what are your hopes and what do you think is going to happen? I know the fate of all these things their fate isn't positive One of the things that we've found in

[00:44:21] all our travels is that the playbooks are the same and from the get they have a built-in mechanism to fail, it's just a matter of time So that's just been our experience What do you think and what's your forecast and what do you hope the documentary achieves and

[00:44:35] what do you hope to see in the future? Yeah, I mean I hope that there could be some repercussions on Jeff and Shalia I hope that there could be something that makes them stop recruiting people I mean, I want the organization to end, right? I don't want anyone

[00:44:49] else to get caught up in this So as you know, it's just the legal playbook for holding an organization like this accountable is very difficult and the United States doesn't have laws to kind of speak to things like coercion. They don't have as many as other places

[00:45:07] And so it's just difficult to say if someone is on paper agreeing to all of these things or they see themselves as a volunteer, well then what is forced labor? There's a lot that goes into kind of proving that type of distinction and it also takes a lot

[00:45:23] of resources to let it be a case like that. So we'll see I don't know how much you know that there's so many people in their neighborhood that are very unhappy that they're there many of whom are in contact with us if we could somehow do something

[00:45:37] other than do what we're doing now. But I feel like there's a real sense of outrage that these people are in their neighborhood and taking advantage of people and driving around in their yellow Porsche. Beginning of the end is started so the wheels are in motion

[00:45:51] for them to fall. It's just a matter of how long they can delay the inevitable This is kind of what we've seen Unless they're protected legally, one of the loopholes a lot of the organizations get as they find a legal loophole to protect them and they don't

[00:46:03] have that. So I think it's only a matter of time before awareness is built and they're going to have to do something. That's interesting. Well, I guess kind of remains to be seen. Yeah. Well, if anyone from the government is listening or FBI, I would

[00:46:15] say you could probably get them on forced labor and tax evasion. My means is journalism. That's my toolkit. So I'm trying to do the best I can to just expose what's happening and again give hard documentation of this evidence that we have

[00:46:29] of them, you know, and we have a lot of evidence, right? So I think just putting that out into the world and having that not be hidden anymore is that's my contribution. That's a great contribution. That's a punch you can throw. And this is the call

[00:46:43] out to the next Moira Penza to watch this documentary and then take it upon themselves to make a case and investigate these two. And the loyal people are always going to have to reconcile from here on out the accusations and then the lies that are met

[00:46:57] with those accusations because that's one of the things that, you know, once we start to expose stuff, everything that the organization did from there on point only proved what we were saying was true. And so what's going to happen with people, you know, that have

[00:47:11] met you and met the people that have left, they're going to have to reconcile that's not who those people were and that these people are lying. That way it becomes harder to walk around with, I think. So it takes time and it's case by case.

[00:47:23] But good work. Yeah, good work. Here's a question. Did you ever try the mirror exercise? Did you ever do it? Oh my gosh. Yeah, for sure. Because when I was reporting about it, everyone was so we'll just explain to listeners what the mirror exercise is. So this is

[00:47:37] Jeff Finchley's quote unquote therapeutic teaching which teaches you to anytime there's an issue in your life, like whether it's someone maybe broke up with you or you're not finding love or maybe you don't have the job you want or maybe you're broke and you can't pay your rent.

[00:47:53] They say any problem that you have you're supposed to do the mirror exercise. So instead of saying like why does this problem exist, you say I caused this problem. What did I do to provoke this problem that I'm dealing with? And you basically mirror it back on

[00:48:07] yourself and look at your own role in it. And they teach that if you successfully do this and kind of analyze the reasons for your own responsibility in your problems that your problems will disappear. Which is an interesting concept. I mean of course introspection

[00:48:23] can be a very powerful tool. Used in traditional psychotherapy to say oh well you know let me be self aware and kind of think about how my actions may have provoked certain realities. But the problem is you can't just apply that to every situation. It's not

[00:48:37] our fault always. Especially in situations where this is a group that teaches their teachings are around love and relationships. Well relationships can be abusive. What if you're with somebody who is an abuser and they're beating you? I mean that's not your fault. And that's something

[00:48:55] that should not be taught. People should not be thinking about what they did to provoke their own abuse. And that is exactly what Twin Flames Universe would tell people. You know I tried it to see if I could kind of empathize with the mentality of people

[00:49:09] within the organization and my conclusions are what I just said. Right I think those are great conclusions. We did talk about it in the first episode we did that there's times when that is helpful to go oh well this is something that

[00:49:21] can be very self and that can be very healing, blah blah blah. But totally true when you're being abused this is a tool to protect an abuser. Right. Oh yeah and it's a tool to get people to question their reality and not trust their own instincts

[00:49:33] and that is valuable to Twin Flames Universe because if that's the case then people are going to be more easily manipulated. They're just going to be more vulnerable and kind of malleable to suggestion. And I think that's what the mere exercise is about

[00:49:47] as a business tool. Absolutely. Well that is something that I thought was very humanizing and an empathetic approach to the survivors is this through line of especially in the pandemic, post-pandemic people are lonely. And people are looking and searching and that doesn't make them weak and vulnerable

[00:50:05] in the negative sense it just opens them up to be susceptible to somebody coming in saying let me give you this let me promise you something that you want so badly. That's what traps my ass about this whole situation is that it's just tapping into that vulnerability

[00:50:19] and capitalizing on it in a way that is so grotesque and overt and so it's an obvious scam from the outside. Well I think it's an obvious scam once you know everything we know but I think when people are first getting into this they don't know any of

[00:50:33] that. No of course. Just to clarify I didn't mean that they should know it's an obvious scam. I'm saying I like that the documentary the way that it shows it shows the scam I don't ever mean to say that anyone because

[00:50:45] it should have been obvious from the beginning. No it's very clear how it starts as an online core it amps up it doesn't go into like hey join this and I'm the father Christ and come work for free because nobody would do that. No way and I

[00:50:57] love that that's a big message that you guys kind of have put out ever since exiting and I think that's really important for people to know that yeah that it does amp up. Never underestimate the power of the buy-in right so

[00:51:09] once you buy in you have to make that purchase work right it's the cognitive distance to that so that's part of the coercion as well. Oh for sure. It's a large part of the coercion I think you know. And also if you have parents going don't do that

[00:51:21] that's bad and you're like I'm gonna do this and I'm my own person like if you're individuating at the same time. And also the community seems kind of cool at first like there's people from all over the world like people have all these different jobs

[00:51:33] everyone is interested in self-improvement and spirituality the community of people into Inflame's universe are cool and seem interesting like I think a lot of people also are like well why wouldn't I hang out with these people right it's also it's not just about the leaders it's like

[00:51:47] also at the beginning it's about finding a community of like-minded people. What do you all think about cults and the internet like is the internet the new breeding ground for cults because I feel like I've been hearing more and more about Twin Flames universe is the first

[00:52:01] one I heard about that it was called the cult of the algorithm. Yeah it's you know they run this they don't need to have everybody in person they can influence you online and I just it's just fascinating to me that the power of that that you can actually

[00:52:17] have so much power over someone you've never met what do you all think about that I definitely think it got worse during the pandemic when people had more time to go down the YouTube rabbit hole and explore in that way and they were

[00:52:29] lonely and wanting to connect which is so normal at the same time you know all these docu-series were coming out and educating people and people were like I don't know what's going on with me but I think it's like the Mormon church

[00:52:41] and the FLDS and Jova's witness because of things like the vow and holy hell and going clear and leaving Scientology so I don't know when really has the numbers it's like people were leaving on mass and people were joining things on mass but I do think it's

[00:52:55] it's a trend and one of my questions for you is I'm not sure how much you followed Teal Swan but like what do you think who would win in a debate between Teal Swan and Jeff if we could get them out of the room that's terrifying

[00:53:07] let's please never do that Alice I can answer that question in this way I think you know to take it out of just like cults and stuff like that if you look at the cult of the algorithm and that you are being monitored

[00:53:19] and you go check a website out it's then going to inform you about what your interest might be and with that in conjunction with people use the internet to validate their belief systems rather than challenge them to just going down rabbit hole

[00:53:35] so like you know if you go check something out about Donald Trump you're gonna start getting stuff on Trump I'm just using politics because I think this is where it goes on a lot or you get something on Biden you're gonna go down that and whatever

[00:53:47] you're susceptible to beliefs on either side you might find yourself going more down a rabbit hole and then that rabbit hole becomes more detached from what might be going on in reality because it's hard to ascertain so and then you're in an echo chamber

[00:54:01] and the way that that becomes kind of threatening to you yourself image and all that and I think that's where it gets dangerous and if you don't see that happening or don't have an awareness and you're online a lot and you go online to soothe yourself

[00:54:13] or whatever I think all those variables are cocktail for people going down these rabbit holes until they recognize they're not. I love that the internet echo chamber is a breeding ground for potential cults. It really is, especially with the things you've learned about

[00:54:27] we've all learned about like the cruelty whether it's a cult or not isolation if you're in the echo chamber and you have the us versus them and our way whatever it is right or left black or white blue or red doesn't matter

[00:54:41] that way is the only way and there's no other way to think about it. It's super polarizing and next thing you know you're I'm not even gonna say what what happens to your interest like I'll give an example there's something I've dabbled in

[00:54:53] and don't really have a real profound interest in is cryptocurrency I just kind of looked on some stuff that I follow on Twitter and they get dogmatic about their cryptocurrency the behavior around just a cryptocurrency or even your football team or sports team. I was gonna say sports

[00:55:09] yoga studio. I mean you used to be able to dismiss it as tongue in cheek now I just don't know like when I go into twitter and it get twitter I mean I've always said twitter is the bathroom wall of social media

[00:55:19] it's just like maybe reddit is that as well but it's volatile it's mean and it's like you know it's somehow an us first them and it's easier to do when you're online because you don't have to be in the same room with with the person you can't

[00:55:31] see them as a human being I doubt you would do that if you're sitting in the same room with them so anyway I think those are all things that I agree with everything you all just said I think that like the like kind of dynamics

[00:55:41] of interactions online do make it easier to start a cult so I think there's that and then I think there's something really specifically interesting with twin flames universe because people become more lonely online a lot of the time right like if you are spending all of

[00:55:55] your time on digital platforms and you don't have as much time for IRL relationships like there are things that you miss like you miss that kind of I mean just physical touch right or you know being able to be in the same room as someone that you care

[00:56:07] about and I think that there's a loneliness that comes with that and that's also kind of like a double that's a double advantage for a place like universe which is promising a cure for loneliness so I've heard this described I saw a video on ironically online I

[00:56:23] was similar curiosity that you had and it's people go to these machines these sites whatever to get a dopamine hit right or get a hit of some sort of connection and with another human being that loop closes when you connect with another person

[00:56:39] you're actually in a kind of a feedback loop of connection it doesn't actually ever get satiated by the machine or the interaction with the machine so you go for the dopamine hit it doesn't get the loop doesn't get closed if you will that's the term they used

[00:56:53] so you're constantly going to get the hit but you want to go back for more it's kind of like eating sugar you know it deprives of nutrients and you want to go back and you keep getting a feedback loop of eating bad food so that's kind

[00:57:03] of the dynamic we have right now and we're in the age right now we're interacting with the internet for the last 10 years in a way that we haven't educated ourselves and understand the ramifications of it as much and I think this is what we're reporting on it's why

[00:57:17] we have a podcast it's why you did a documentary because this is these are the downsides of the times that we're in I think well we loved it and we think it's really yeah really important that it's out there and I think we all have the same mission

[00:57:29] to you know get this business say that in air quotes shut down anything that we didn't cover anything you want people to know about the doc or anything we missed no I think I'm just really excited to watch it and I'm really excited for you to watch

[00:57:43] it rather and then I guess you know I'm always open to tips so if any of the listeners want me to look into an organization or just flag something that's on my radar that should be on my radar let's talk Alice yeah let's talk you have a couple

[00:57:57] yeah because I just think I honestly I just think that this is a problem that like I'm so glad that there has been more attention on it you know with your work with other people's work with you know across different media whether it's docuseries or otherwise and

[00:58:11] I think that that's really good but then I also think these like culty organizations keep changing like they keep morphing and they keep kind of like that yes there's a play book but the way that they recruit people I mean unfortunately they continue to innovate

[00:58:23] so I think it's really important to stay on this and yeah send me tips we have three we also have a spreadsheet of like over a hundred suggestions from our audience that we're still working through so oh my gosh wait content for days fear not unfortunately

[00:58:45] unfortunately it's like the docuseries will already be out by the 10th episodes of drop they can watch on Amazon prime and find you where so you can find me on Instagram I'm Alice Heinz underscore that's also my handle on tick talk

[00:59:01] and I have a newsletter where I send out new work and you can sign up for that on my website which is Alice Heinz calm great and you can also find my contact information on my website perfect well we hope that the audience loves this

[00:59:15] docuseries as much as we did and we hope it gets the right people and if there's anyone listening to this including Jeff and Shalia yes I said her name right the first episode or refused to pronounce it because I was mad I'm not mad now more focused

[00:59:29] if you're listening to this and I'm going to say that you know you've you've hurt people and you're scamming people and I hope you take a little break and focus on your daughter and that's the most important thing just be parents and move on man solicited so much

[00:59:45] you like what you hear please do give us a rating and review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you know what to do well thank you everybody we hope that you

[01:00:01] enjoy this episode and that you make some comments over on our Instagram we'll be chatting more about it on Patreon I feel like the cult busting team just grew one person yes I really appreciate and appreciate her having the same mission as us I also wanted

[01:00:17] to remind people that we do have a newsletter now which you can sign up through the links the link tree in our Instagram bio and life is good football season is almost over I feel like it might have my life back

[01:00:29] I know me too we need to recovery book for this I know we're in another cult till then bye thanks everybody singing down to the depths of the ocean I'm hanging on to the way to my love if I let go of it all I could leave

[01:00:47] but I know I want a little bit culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nipi Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator Jess Temple Tardy research is by Holly Zadra and Matthias

[01:01:07] Rosenzweig and our theme song cultivated is by the artist John Bryant and Nigel Aslan