The Redeemer: Cathrine Moestue on Shame & Radical Identity Change

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[00:00:47] You're a douchebag. Yeah. We're not doctor, psychologist, therapist, license counselors, or shamans. Even though you kind of think you are sometimes. I'm like an urban shaman. Okay? Good talk. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:08] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:20] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story. We met and fell in love in a cult. And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:33] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:40] Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait. This does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that that's separate.

[00:01:53] So it's two days? We got to hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey. And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:05] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level marketing.

[00:02:16] This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com Welcome back everybody.

[00:02:51] Welcome back to A Little Bit Cultie. What do you remember about 1984, 1985? Well, I was seven and I remember Cindy Lauper and I remember Big Bangs and I remember the wave in my hair. How about Live Aid? Does that ring a bell?

[00:03:13] It does. We are the world. Springsteen with the born to USA, Van Halen. There are some key elements of that era as a child growing up. And Reagan's voice. What? Ronald Reagan's voice was like the soundtrack to my youth. Yeah, I was Canadian. I mean, I am Canadian.

[00:03:28] You still are Canadian. You could say that Live Aid though was the Gen X's first consciousness shifting media event. It's like, you know, we are the world and the star-studded spectacle of all these mega legends

[00:03:42] and it was all put together in service of a higher mission of saving children's lives. Live Aid didn't just give us an iconic pop culture moment. It also did real good. It did some real, real good.

[00:03:51] Raised millions of dollars for famine relief in Ethiopia and drew around 1.5 billion television viewers. That's a lot of people Sarah. And it so happens that one of these people that tune into the star-studded broadcast is our guest today. So what does it all have to do with cults?

[00:04:05] Or in Tina Turner mode since everyone loved my Dolly Parton rendition. What's cults got to do? Got to do with it? What's Live Aid got to do with your podcast? Wow. Sorry. I just secretly want to be a rock star. Okay, is it just a tangent?

[00:04:22] We swear here's what it's got to do with it. Catherine Mostu, our honored guest today was 19 years old at the time of Live Aid and she'd recently moved away from home to study at a theater school in Sweden.

[00:04:31] There in Stockholm is where Catherine met a teacher of English and moral philosophy coursework who claimed to have a program to save the hungry children. That's a quote. Slowly but surely Catherine was seduced by the teacher's rhetoric, recruited and ultimately radicalized into the totalitarian group he led.

[00:04:46] She even changed her name to Roxy and became fanatically concerned with saving the world. Sound familiar Sarah? Yeah, I mean I didn't change my name but so far it's sounding all too familiar. Wait a second, I did change my name.

[00:04:57] I was Proctor Edmondson, Senior Proctor Edmondson as I became a Green Sash bar for Rama. Catherine became isolated from family and society for nearly seven years before she finally managed to escape in 1992. Today she's a clinical psychologist who specializes in emotional focus therapy

[00:05:14] and she's an expert on social influence. She's also a collaborator for the hashtag I Got Out movement and here's some cult academia street grid for you. By the time you hear this episode, she'll have recently brought the house down at the International Cultic Studies Association mental health series

[00:05:29] where she presented a lecture on the topic of shame in cult recovery. That'll be in the show notes. But you don't get from Stockholm in 1985 to being featured at the International Cultic Studies Association's events without going through some serious bice. That's Swedish for poop by the way. Maybe.

[00:05:45] We don't have a great fact checking system but we're working on it. Catherine is actually currently writing her autobiography Who Was Roxy? Can't wait to read that and we're chatting with her today about her journey from live aid to Stockholm to Roxy and back

[00:05:57] and what she wants you to know about shame in cult recovery, the six principles of influence, and the pluses and minuses of radical identity change. We've got lots to talk about it so let's get to it. A little bit culty listeners. Here's our chat with Catherine Mastu.

[00:06:11] Welcome Catherine, finally to a little bit culty. Finally. Thank you. Thank you. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for coming. So nice to have you here. Such a pleasure. We've been in touch for a while now but your story

[00:06:36] is just recently been on the cover of Norway's biggest, is that a magazine or a newspaper? Both. Yeah. On Saturdays there is a magazine attached to the newspaper. You were on the cover of this with your story. What is that like and how are you doing right now?

[00:06:53] Oh, that's a big question. Well I think I'm doing really good. I mean just having the story publicly is really a loaded loads of shame. I can really feel that and so that's one thing that I feel very good about it.

[00:07:11] And none of my fears have come to life. And also like you keep saying that these comments from strangers are so nourishing, so calming and this has happened to me as well. There's been, and especially I've got messages from psychiatrists, doctors,

[00:07:30] there is like mostly women and one man, people who have high positions in society that are so ashamed about their abusive relationships or experience from previously. And what they tell me is that they lend strength from reading that article

[00:07:48] and my God I can't tell you how much that gives me goosebumps. Yeah, sorry my English is a bit. No it's great. Your message was clear though. I think we got it. Okay. Yeah. Yes, like Nipi and I were just saying reading your story before this that like

[00:08:04] the content's so different, the time you know this happened to you in the 80s and we'll get into that. But the process and the language and the way that your abuser manipulated you

[00:08:16] is just so, I mean it's, we see it like every time it just blows our mind and this is a particular. This one's particularly with parallels. It's very similar or at least how you put language to it.

[00:08:27] You know some people don't necessarily put language to it as well as you have. I don't think sometimes it's still vague but the way you articulate was very similar to what we experienced. You know it's so nice to hear you say that because that's how I feel with

[00:08:41] especially with the philosophy because when we learn about cults and really you can see the dynamic that's similar but if the people are wearing funny clothes or you know if there's some other religious thing then

[00:08:55] that makes it a little bit different and so learning about Maxim also for me that there was a sort of philosopher or he posed as a philosopher. I don't know which one is the right one to say because in our group

[00:09:08] there was this wanting to create an ethical world you know and to be, yeah that similarity. The similarities and tell me if you relate to this or not. I notice a lot of these things start with complaining about the world

[00:09:22] and complaining about the structures and a lot of those movements are able to get I think younger people because we can all go yeah these don't work and I don't see a place where I can fit in or something like that.

[00:09:35] And normally an effective movement at least historically starts with an idea or a premise and they're not really enrolling you into an idea they're enrolling to you how bad everything is and I think a lot of

[00:09:45] people are just like I know I was I mean that was you know I resonated with your story because I looked at the world and had a problem with it. Yeah that's right. Yeah as opposed to there's some things that you can go in and you can enter

[00:09:55] an ecosystem and maybe improve and here's an idea to get behind so that one to me is what really jumped off the page and reading yours. Right and so they they misuse you know the suffering in the world

[00:10:06] and then they pose as morally superior and they have a great confidence and that kind of moral narcissism. Yeah moral narcissism. New word for a little bit culty. Let's start there let's start there let's go let's paint the scene

[00:10:20] because maybe I know the story but our audience does not paint the scene for us in the 80s and the age that you are and what was going on in your life you know I'd like to hear your story but I also do want to focus also at

[00:10:30] the end on your healing and your activism now and what and your therapeutic work but paint the picture where were you when this guy and do we call him Jack or Cornell because I see two names.

[00:10:40] I'd like to call him Cornell we did that in the in Charlotte's book and it's okay by me but in the newspaper in Norway we called him Jack because they're to protect children and some children have his surnames. Gotcha. Those poor children.

[00:10:55] Okay so tell us your story set the scene. Yeah right so this is in 1984 which is symbolic I think I'm 19 years old and I'm leaving home for the first time I want to be an actress

[00:11:08] but I'm a little bit shy so I don't want to go straight to audition because I'm a school here in Oslo so there is a fame school in Sweden and I sign up for this fame school you know they want to teach me to dance

[00:11:23] and sing and all that and I thought great you know I'm going to gain my confidence for the audition and forgive my laughing but you know that's just part of my personality. No you laugh as much as you want to. Thanks.

[00:11:37] So the thing is was the newspaper there was a famine in Ethiopia a bit like the war in Syria a couple years back this famine was exposed in the media it's actually the most exposed hunger crisis. I remember it yeah that was only we are the world.

[00:11:57] Wait is that 1984 one two three four six seven at the time but I totally remember it we actually had like an Ethiopian person that we sponsored named Awad that I wrote letters to

[00:12:06] and my mom sent money to like I remember it was he was a big part of the backdrop. Yeah right and the whole world came together to save the world so to speak. Yeah and you had the Bob Geldof and do they know his Christmas

[00:12:17] and we are the world song and so just I think most people remember this crisis but the thing was being in 19 being at this transition in my life being idealistic and naive I mean let's not deny that because I think

[00:12:33] that's normal to be naive when you are 19 so I travel alone I come to a city outside Stockholm called Eskilstuna it's a very small city we are only about 10 students at this fame school and of course my dreams are big of these images from

[00:12:48] I guess you've seen the fame movie. Of course another backdrop to the 80s I could totally picture that. Yeah so you have to really go into that and then I'm cheering on two of my classmates in a shopping center

[00:13:01] because they're dancing and yeah I'm going into how I met the teacher now so there is a man coming over to me and whispering in my ear in English I can need someone like you for my team and my whole body reacts in a very strong way

[00:13:19] I get goosebumps and you know my stomach tightens and the guy disappears and so it was like almost like I've experienced something similar when a man was hitting on me do you know what I mean it's like something totally unexpected something eerie is happening

[00:13:34] and then my classmates said oh no that's just the teacher you know it's our English teacher and the eerie thing was that I knew immediately he'd been observing me Right. And how did that make you feel? My body froze actually

[00:13:47] and so what happened was that my body was very smart it's telling me that something is dangerous something is not as it should be and later when this particular teacher Cornell his name is he was married to a woman I'm not going to say her name

[00:14:02] a very beautiful teacher too and when this couple invited all our students to go back to their place I was the only one who didn't want to go but I went because all my classmates were going and I was new in town

[00:14:17] I'm not gonna sit home on a Saturday alone and so it was that kind of pressure it really did affect me that comment but when we came to his place or their place he wasn't even there you know only his wife was there

[00:14:30] and then he later came in because he'd been running like I don't know but he's gone for a long run you could see he was extremely sweaty and he went into the shower and he came out with only a towel around his waist

[00:14:43] and all that and when I look back it's drama you know he's creating this exotic and he was an Indian looking man very handsome at that and so you know the whole setting of this you see things that you've never seen in your entire life

[00:14:59] and he creates this aura around himself and then that same evening he started with the philosophical starting to question reality How did he hook you there? What was the thing that he said to you that you felt seen finally? Yeah I love that question I remember

[00:15:15] and the question is can you think clearly Catherine can you think clearly so what does a 19 year old say to a question like that? Yes Of course you know of course I can think clearly and so he started then to show me

[00:15:31] you know so how do you know we're not dreaming how do you know that the candle on the table is really there I can't remember exactly what I said but I tried and I just quickly realized that I couldn't defend my reality Breaking down your reality

[00:15:44] that was mind blowing because creating a dependency and also like channeling your reality and he now becomes the holder of reality You know that those exact questions were asked in Eixiom? Yeah and our modules How do you know you're not dreaming? What is reality?

[00:15:57] How do you know you're not a brain in the vat? Hard to answer The philosophical They had an answer We had an answer So we thought Yeah But you know what in reading the chapters in Far Out which we'll put the link in our show notes

[00:16:13] because your story is told as a chapter in Far Out a book about radicalization which we read to research this it really struck me how you painted your childhood in a way that I think a lot of people will relate to in terms of feeling not understood

[00:16:27] and feeling very alone and feeling like you didn't have the full attention I mean obviously your parents loved you but they weren't deep in your world in the way that you wanted it seemed like Right? And then here comes this person who's really seeing you and validating you

[00:16:42] and giving you a purpose and a meaning which God knows I totally get and like I see it so clearly I have goosebumps Not an eerie way but just to see the pattern in a good way In a good way Absolutely And Doctor

[00:16:58] Is it Doctor Ramani you had on the show? She said that quite beautiful when you meet somebody who validates you for the first time and that is so nice I mean that feeling of being seen is such a basic human need and it's filled right there and then

[00:17:16] and somebody asking you questions about how you feel and what's been going on and in a family with five kids we were five kids in my family lots are going on and you know just to have somebody interested in your emotional reactions to stuff it was wonderful

[00:17:33] Interesting, Nipi is also from a family of five Yeah We'll psychoanalyze him later I think he's just dead Sorry about that Just you know I'm trying for a little I think that we clearly see the hook and what brings you in Yeah, the ecosystem of what's going on

[00:17:54] in the world combated with the ecosystem there's a lot of parallels that are pretty common in all these And the tapestry of your childhood and then what he's offering but let's just like paint the picture for the audience What was the group's mission?

[00:18:07] I couldn't really tell by the articles what did the group do like what was the day to day Right, so I think that we first have to talk about how he changed his identity you know because that's really that hook is really just inviting me to become friends

[00:18:22] and you know and that wasn't for six months or it took actually one and a half years to create this radical Roxy Establishing trust I think is what he's trying to do Right, building rapport is another way grooming is another word for it But the trick

[00:18:39] it's really becoming some extraordinary authority after all the suffering after we did that in class so he was actually our teacher in class and he also created an extra on moral philosophy that we attended the five of us and he also empowered me because he said

[00:18:57] you know you're so good in theatre why don't you create a theatre school for children and so I was only yes and I had two jobs and I was running you know like these are all important behaviour changes that I stopped smoking I was running

[00:19:14] I was feeling more and more empowered by this person parallel to discussing the issues of the world and so I felt wow this was really meaningful which it was you know if it had been true That's so cute It's so cute what you just said it was meaningful

[00:19:32] which it was had it been true like that's just such a great sound bite it's if it was true it would be very meaningful and yet it was not true I love what you wrote meeting once a week and I was like I'm going to do other students

[00:19:45] to listen to Cornell's moral puzzles and that's like another way of saying like I felt like in our curriculum it was always sitting to have a moral puzzle like about whether it was about abortion or I can't think of the other hot topics right now euthanasia

[00:19:58] it was any domain really any domain yeah I've called it proactive daydreaming you're just in there talking about things but you're not really coming up with solutions you're just having like stoned conversations right but like no we so weren't we in that same boat

[00:20:13] I know but I'm just bringing back to Katherine for the revolution I want to say something about those philosophical cases also but let's first do the identity change when he after having built this rapport he has a confession to make

[00:20:28] you know but he's not sure if he can trust me to give it to me you know the drill and I'm going of course you can trust me please tell me the secrets you know and so I'm literally begging for it

[00:20:40] and he says I'm not really who you think I am you know so he said you know he was actually living undercover in Sweden and that his name was Raul Sandic which is not a real person surprise and he actually came from Paraguay

[00:20:57] and that he was a leader of the revolution and of course this doesn't make sense to everybody but it makes emotional sense you know to a 19 year old where you don't only have your best friend and a new life but you have a really good man

[00:21:13] you know wow and because he answers all my dreams about the world there had to be somebody who cared about the children because all we were reading was catastrophe, catastrophe, catastrophe and nobody was coming up with any solutions other than sending food or money

[00:21:29] which really didn't help the famine at all but this good man you know he was you know it's a Jesus moment when he reveals his identity and then he says you know he's so scared he told me this and he because children could die if other people knew

[00:21:46] and if I would write the contract with him He's holding you hostage with your morality Right What does writing in the contract mean? is that I would never tell the secret of his true identity That's a former collateral not so aggressive way right?

[00:22:02] Well the collateral he held on Catherine was her secrets that she'd shared with him for so long as his friend and like you know sharing her struggles as a young woman and with her parents that seemed like then he used that and flipped it on you

[00:22:15] can you tell us about the first moment that you felt humiliated and how that happened publicly? Right So it was in philosophy class and so we were doing one of those experiments where we're traveling to the moon you know imagine you're traveling to the moon

[00:22:29] or there's gonna be a nuclear war and you know only a few people can go into the rocket that takes you to the moon you know so only like 10 people can survive and so who do you choose? and what do you bring?

[00:22:43] and so one of the things that I crossed out was that I wanted to bring a gun and he just blew up in the class you know a gun you know how could you be so stupid were you gonna shoot the Martians

[00:22:58] you know like it was so humiliating I'm laughing now but it was just so devastating that I made the wrong choice I didn't know what the fuck to bring You've never packed for the moon I've never packed for the moon What did he want you to bring?

[00:23:14] Green juice? I bring some green juice and some I brought a gun too to be honest with you That's so validating Yeah You're welcome You never know about the Martians right? Yeah it's true or who are you going with? Hey hey that's a good one

[00:23:29] So he humiliated you and how did that affect you with him moving forward like did it, you tell me what was that like? Yeah so I work harder of course but then the first time I was gaslit that I can really remember being gaslit

[00:23:43] is when he went to Copenhagen with one of the other students and his wife called me and said do you know where Cornell is and I was stuck with this dilemma do I tell her or do I I don't say it

[00:23:59] and it was one of my best friends that he'd gone there with who later became his wife as well and so I ended up telling the wife that I thought they were in Copenhagen and so when he came back he was furious with me

[00:24:12] and made it out that I told his wife because I was so jealous with my friend and my friend is she was a really really beautiful she still is very beautiful really beautiful woman who was also a film actress

[00:24:27] and of course I mean there is some truth to my jealousy you know who wouldn't be jealous of somebody who looks perfect but and also the time that he was spending with her I think was also something you were jealous of right which I totally get

[00:24:40] it could be, yeah it could be but it also was appalling to me to my own morals you know I just couldn't understand what's going on and so instead of him saying you know that was something wrong with taking a student to Copenhagen leaving his wife

[00:24:54] but you know which was obviously the moral transgression in this case it became all about me and it was so painful and so disturbing that after that actually went home I actually left school and went home to Oslo and so that affected me

[00:25:10] in the sense that you know I really didn't want to have anything more to do with him after that So after that happened were you aware that it was gaslighting or are you just aware that you were right in your stance and that he was off

[00:25:20] or did you make what he was saying to you true at all that's a very good question it was just extremely uncomfortable because it was the first sort of long speech if you recognize, I don't know if you recognize these long speeches

[00:25:33] there's a moral speech about you know because this is also after his identity is disclosed and I would have to understand that he cannot tell me everything and he cannot tell me the reasons why he's doing things and blah blah blah blah

[00:25:46] and so that feeling yeah probably felt I just felt so much shame the good feelings were sort of gone and I just wanted to stay away from him and so I bought flowers and I go into the classroom and I left it on the desk

[00:25:59] and took the train or my car back to Oslo This is the golden age of cult recovery The more we speak up and share our stories the more we realize we are not alone Your voice and your story can empower others This is Sarah

[00:26:14] and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement Learn more at I got out dot org This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga

[00:26:35] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep That's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables Like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature Hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it Nature is a non-negotiable

[00:26:51] Not enough time in the fresh air I'm in the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better

[00:27:02] all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need

[00:27:12] Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people You know what I mean? Thanks therapy Thanks for helping me see that And if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible

[00:27:25] and suited to your schedule Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge Look, even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it

[00:27:36] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp Visit BetterHelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty

[00:27:51] The Frankies were a picture-perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for help He's emaciated He's got tape around his legs Ruby Frankie is his mom's name Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie the world of Mormonism

[00:28:13] and a secret therapy group that ruined lives Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts H-E-L-P So as you know in a little bit culty we always ask people like what are the red flags along the way We've mentioned a few You know, the humiliation and the gaslighting

[00:28:32] and him turning his transgression his infidelity as a problem that you have What were the other things I mean now you're an expert in this area What are the other red flags that you missed as like key points? Well, I think the most important red flag

[00:28:47] is that stomach feeling I had the very first time I met him, my body knew and even before I had any therapy before I read anything about narcissism just after I came out there was a question if I died, what was there a wisdom

[00:29:02] that you would leave the world and at that stage I was 26 when I left so around 27 years old I would have said trust your guts So even then I knew that my body knew It's very common It's the most common What do you say Sarah?

[00:29:19] That's the most common response people were like initially my body was like, nope Yeah A couple other things that stuck out to me was the moment and this is also something that was said to me in Xium in a slightly different way

[00:29:31] but do you really want to be an actress in a world where children are starving I specifically remember choosing between it was like a Hallmark movie and some training and it was like Do you really want to do Hallmark movies when we're changing the world

[00:29:45] or something like that is this exact same thing and you just made to feel so awful and shameful about your career choices Your dreams get crushed Crushing of the dreams under the guise of Nobility Nobility Yeah, I just want to say something because we've not spoken about

[00:30:01] the principles of influence yet but what we are talking about right now is both the principle of scarcity and the principle of consistency which is really a way to guide our feeling good about ourselves and so we have a basic human need to feel good about ourselves

[00:30:19] and those two principles are tapped into that so we want to be consistent with what we say and do and so now that you're doing so much good in the world Sarah how could you want to do that kind of movie or it becomes sort of self radicalize

[00:30:34] because of the principle of consistency because we want to have we need to see ourselves in a good light We don't remember why we were so engaged in saving the world but we were and so that becomes the place we become consistent to rather than the old dreams

[00:30:52] and the old identity Right, it starts to serve our identity more than it does the actual thing that we set out to serve And the moral superiority or as Eckhart told which was a very controversial episode that we had but one nugget I got from that

[00:31:04] was that there's the collective ego of the group which Nipi and I had to totally eat that shit sandwich that we did that and that was a quote I pulled from the book was Catherine's friend seemed bewildered by her air of moral superiority

[00:31:19] like that's such a red flag when people around you are like who is this person who thinks they know better than everybody else and that's part of the us versus them like you're the only ones who have the path this is a path you've chosen

[00:31:31] I was also really struck by how he isolated you from your parents and had you call them and tell them that they were Nazis I mean how horrific that he would cut you off from them in that way and also so beautiful that they stayed loving towards you

[00:31:44] and never cut you off, right? That's so beautiful So beautiful I think to clear it up a little bit maybe in my head maybe for the audience too is when you talk about identifying with the group oftentimes at least for me is it became aware to me

[00:31:58] I couldn't identify with anything that the actual organization or what I was achieving in the real world so consequently had to go more inside and go well here's what we're doing inside do the group or whatever thing so it became more insular

[00:32:11] and Sarah I think I speak for you when I say this because we had one foot out kind of in the external world we could make those distinctions about like we're not actually doing anything in this world but we think we're doing something over here

[00:32:23] and that became something that Sarah I don't know if I speak for you in this but it became like that's what I could hang my hat on at least to my own mind and I became protective of that, right?

[00:32:32] And then I looked at the rest of the world as like well I'm doing the proverbial Lord's work right I don't know if that's in line with what you experienced or not In feeling superior? Yeah, I think that's what feeds it You have to keep fortifying that perspective

[00:32:46] Yeah, I think part of feeling definitely did as Roxy I definitely did feel superior definitely and it was also because of this we became vegetarians Some people did, it was a lot of our organization vegetarian Right, so and also I think that

[00:33:02] the health part was also a criticism against society that became more dominating after a while he stopped talking about the starving children and sort of the health measure you know we were looking really good I have to say to this day that I think we did

[00:33:18] and the feeling of endorphins when I was a a sloppy teenager and just getting all that endorphins they're running the feeling good, I sort of praised him for giving me those feelings not my own body and so I think that's what was also part of feeling superior

[00:33:38] but how I justified it I think it was a constant day-to-day justification whenever there was a doubt I looked around and my friends were there and they all seemed to be okay with what was going on It reinforces the choice I know there's a lot of details

[00:33:54] with your eventual escape but maybe you could give us the cliff notes of the first wake up and then the suck back in and then the eventual escape Yeah, and that's also something I really like to talk about because I'm so proud of escaping Yes, me too

[00:34:10] that you're proud of it Thanks, so we had a mobile phone one of the first, you know, the Motorola really heavy shits that you carry around and he was always experimenting with control behaviors and so he gave me this mobile phone

[00:34:26] and so that he could call me anytime and I was alone in the city with this mobile phone and I go into the shop in Orhus, actually, Denmark and this beautiful Palestinian boy is working there and when I come inside he said

[00:34:42] oh, I'd really like to have coffee with you and I'm just looking at him and I'm thinking yeah, I'd really like to have coffee with you too but I can't it was a dilemma I just can't and I couldn't explain why oh shit, that's

[00:34:58] I was wanting to be rebellious against this and so I go back and I said I can have coffee but we have to do it here you know, we have to have coffee in this particular shop and he said, okay, I'm closing in one hour

[00:35:10] and you come back and so if Cornell had called me in that hour, the escape would have been off but I was very lucky and so I go into the shop and we have coffee and we kiss and that's extremely rebellious

[00:35:24] and I don't have time for kissing, as you know and so the fact that he did not notice that I had been so rebellious because before I felt that he could see my every thought, my every emotion you know, I thought that he had soldiers everywhere

[00:35:40] so I felt really hyper-vigilant and surveilled all the time but I had done something really really naughty or rebellious, healthy rebellion you might say and then I come back to the group and they don't notice me and I have bills on the string

[00:35:54] and so it's like Catherine is awaking inside and so I forget that I'm Roxy I forget which group I'm in because I've got this so much new energy and I wake up and I'm going to deliver the mobile phone because it's too expensive for us to have it

[00:36:10] and we all agreed we should give it back but it was a Sunday and so I actually wake up early and I just go to do the job and I can't imagine when Cornell wakes up and I'm not there you see how forgetful I was completely

[00:36:26] in my own, in love universe and so I come back and it's not very funny what's happening because he sends everybody out and then he just throws me on the floor and sits on top of me with this big knife and he wants to cut up my eyes

[00:36:42] and he wants me to watch is this moment where I'm just so sure certain that I'm going to die and I've seen him so angry he's never been that violent and he's again mumbling and mumbling on that nobody will miss me when I die

[00:36:58] which I know is sort of true well nobody will look for me because I guess my parents had given up by then and so it's a strange thing that dying makes you come alive because something happened in my brain when

[00:37:12] I thought that I was actually going to die that all the red flags that I'd seen over the years became like one story in my mind like a flash and I just knew he was a charlatan in that moment on the floor and lucky for me

[00:37:28] he did the same thing he got up from my body sat on the sofa said you have to stop scaring me in this way blah blah blah blah that it's my fault that he's acting out you know this usual kind of story and I'm just going sure

[00:37:42] I'll never do this again you know and I'm just playing along for a few more hours with the group before when we're going to bed I just realized I just rehearsed my escape and so when everybody falls asleep I do the same thing I just sneak out

[00:38:00] even though my heart is beating really fast I'm so scared I felt the knife in my back as I open the door but I just couldn't believe nobody woke up and this is an old building and lots of sound and so I just open the door

[00:38:14] and I just ran and I ran from this flat that we were in to the central station and I took train back to that city of Orhus because we were actually based in Copenhagen at that time the guy in the shop, his whole family they are Palestinian refugees

[00:38:30] and they welcome me into their family which is and I stay there for six months and it's such a beautiful memory that I have with this very very loving family I love the image that you wrote in your book how you were drinking Tuberg beer

[00:38:42] which I remember drinking when I lived over there briefly drinking Tuberg beer and smoking a cigarette and Guns and Roses was playing November Rain on the stereo, like the image of that with this family I was like freedom, like of course of course

[00:39:00] little guns and roses to free you up yes, yeah nothing like it and yes I think that's such a beautiful moment to reclaim your life and I just have such a like OCD stupid question when you left did you bring anything with you?

[00:39:14] did you pack a bag to leave it all behind these are the things I think about I think it's a good thing to think about because I left everything behind actually everything but I didn't take the money and so what I'm thinking is so weird

[00:39:30] that I still am pleasing as I leave the group I'm just trying to make sure they are not getting into any trouble it's so weird no I get it, it's not weird not weird at all I'm gonna really encourage people to read the book

[00:39:44] for the whole story just to backtrack before you got out and I thought it was interesting that you were part of a trial and testified and he got sent away and you were out and you were clear this is before you got out

[00:39:56] so like just backtracking for a second just because I think it's important to note that you got out and there was no witness protection like the authorities did this is a different time this is the 80s it's very different now no one knew what they were looking at

[00:40:08] no and they didn't know to protect you to keep the other women from like scooping because you were out but then you got scooped back in for another four years before that freedom story just happened so we don't have to get too into it

[00:40:20] but I do think it's important to note that things have really changed has it changed over there as well? it's definitely changed here yeah so glad you bring this point up because if you're going to ask me later whatchaps my ass well tell us now

[00:40:34] there's no rules on chat my ass you can come right out with it it emerges when it emerges it's natural cool and so I was reading about the rules for prison systems just yesterday because I was preparing for today because and I also saw

[00:40:50] Keith Reneary he was he's allowed to have a mobile phone he's not allowed they were snuck in he snuck in the mobile phone but he was allowed to have conversations with people for a long time he's not even convincing this chaps my ass

[00:41:04] and it also chaps my ass because even during the trial they knew that he the power this Cornell had over me and so I was allowed to testify without him in the room interesting yeah so they didn't know but there is no system in place

[00:41:22] like when he later is in prison the prison and asks to call they give him permission to call and he hooks you right away back in ugh yeah that part of the story is really infuriating chaps my ass also it's not allowed today

[00:41:38] they have rules in place today to make sure that mafia bosses or cult leaders or manipulators cannot just call anybody at any time and this is a really good thing for me to read and learn the missed opportunity to save my sorry ass so what year was that

[00:41:58] when you're drinking to berg and listening to November rain and you get free well it had to be 1991 because November rain didn't come out till 1992 yeah there you go I ran away in 92 hey there hope you're enjoying this a little bit culty episode

[00:42:16] if you're interested in more long form culty content check out my memoir it's called scarred the true story of how I escaped nexium the cult I found my life you can get it on Amazon or listen to it on audible or

[00:42:28] find it in most bookstores in the quote total badass woman in nonfiction section which is new thanks babe I appreciate you and now here's a message from our sponsors this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip

[00:42:46] leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside in nature hashtag cold pools hashtag

[00:43:02] crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to

[00:43:12] not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I

[00:43:22] can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting

[00:43:32] therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge look even when we know

[00:43:46] what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with better help visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get

[00:43:58] 10% off your first month that's better help H ELP dot com slash culty meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in Macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds

[00:44:14] go toward local food banks and families now sir January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together

[00:44:28] we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's so tell us about your healing journey like how did you become a therapist tells about the six principles of influence give us a download of like what you're doing now and how you got to where you are

[00:44:43] love this yeah so first of all healing my family you mentioned before I just need to to say that because my family has been so loving and so because luckily they're so conservative also they they stayed in the same house they were still married and

[00:44:57] I feel that that part of my healing journey has been very important even though I didn't get any therapy at the time you know it got me back mobilized you know for for work and so healing is a long journey as you know

[00:45:11] but meeting I went to an x a conference in 2005 and Robert Cheldini is a professor in psychology he's written a book called influence that is I guess the most cited book on social influence he was giving a keynote talk and this was in Madrid in

[00:45:29] 2005 and so I write an email asking if I can do an interview because at the time I'm psychology student I wanted to write for the magazine and he in his email he says to me wow you have escaped a cult how on earth did you

[00:45:45] manage to do that in my research I learned that it's so hard to leave cults and so I'm just flabbergasted you know because it's such a respectful question to somebody with so much shame and everybody else asks different questions or why didn't you leave you know

[00:46:03] but here is a professor he's an authority and he asked me this really respectful question so I guess that was the one part of my healing journey and then learning about how the principles of influence learning he gave a talk that was called you

[00:46:23] don't have to be a fool to be fooled oh that sounds good it is and so instantly also part of my hurt was healed in that's just the name of the talk and so learning about how these three basic human needs that we have

[00:46:41] that we need to make good decisions and that we need to have a good self image and that we need to belong somewhere and how these three needs are exploited by charlatans and cult leaders and when he's laying out you know you use the tech in your

[00:46:59] cult you use the tech word I was just thinking that the principles they come from 70 years of research and Geldini's contribution is that he actually went to observe salespeople and stuff like that to see you know what exactly are they doing and so

[00:47:17] this is sort of like tech I'm thinking like this 100% yes and I think that learning about them is a huge part of resilience because in his book because how to resist unethical influence is just so important and learning about the mechanisms that are universal

[00:47:39] they are natural they are in play as we speak their principle of liking the principle of reciprocity the need to belong to someone or the need to have meaning so we like people who are like us right and that is activated and amplified by

[00:47:55] people who are like me and so when I watch next year I like to immediately and that sort of is that good or bad right so we can start to think critically is that good or bad and so in training for influence you learn to ask ethical questions

[00:48:11] you ask is it true is it natural in the situation and is this a win-win situation and those three questions I practice on almost everything even in the shopping in the store and they are from I think the four way test I think there is some other

[00:48:29] business man who actually made these questions but I learnt them from Chaldeany so is it true that I like you you know is it true that our stories are similar I mean yeah we have evidence we have the data is it natural in the situation

[00:48:47] and I think definitely there is not that many people who speak out about their cult stories and it's definitely natural for me and I'm so honoured to be here with you today is this a win-win that do you benefit and do I benefit from the talk

[00:49:01] and I can only answer for myself I think we do for sure I have a question when you look out into the world you personally what do you think is the most pressing thing people need to know with the way they are being bombarded

[00:49:15] with information based on your experience like what are you most sensitive to I think you don't have to be a fool to be fooled meaning that in a world where adults believe in QAnon and believe that Democrats are eating children or something like that

[00:49:29] we certainly don't have to be shameful that we were fooled you know by conspiracy theory I think that insecurity that if we knew that when we are insecure we look outside ourselves for guidance and that some people are really good at fear of mongering

[00:49:47] but they're mongering in security and so whenever you know oh my god COVID the kind of insecurity that we just had that's a ripe ground for manipulators to influence us and if we know about the principles of influence and prepared before next situation arise

[00:50:07] we will operate inside our backs in our spine two questions is this a true authority and what does he or she have to gain by telling me this to always remember that our feelings are not mine it's a great answer because it addresses extremes

[00:50:25] extreme but we haven't used the word that much and I'm going to put a link to an interview with the author of the book Far Out about radicalism and some of the things that she put together from her extensive interviews

[00:50:35] the thing that really stuck out to me was just the pervasive nature of loneliness feeling alone and one feeling powerlessness over being able to affect one's life and one's life in society and I think so many of us felt that in COVID no matter what you believed

[00:50:49] was happening we were all alone and so isolated thank God I had a family I don't know what I would have done even though this is the golden age of cults and people are waking up there's also so many people joining new groups similar to yours

[00:51:01] and became extremely radicalized on both sides of the political spectrum and we had people writing to us about are you going to do a cult about anti-vaxxers and other people saying are you going to do the cult about the people who want to vaccinate everybody like every

[00:51:15] side is the extreme and it started to merge too with the back stuff and the political stuff and it was just so extreme everything got criticized pretty quickly and the worst part about it is if you wanted to have a civil discourse in the extreme cases

[00:51:31] and you presented things that were challenging a certain narrative people would persecute you for having not just what they perceived a different belief system but there didn't seem to be an ecosystem for good faith conversations in civil discourse and people were immediately setting

[00:51:45] you into a binary kind of way of being which happened relatively quickly one answer is because we don't have all that time but to read the book influence because in every chapter there is way to how to say no in different situations and if we all knew

[00:52:03] if people really know that it's not just that everybody is vulnerable to ethical influence and I think that's so important that we know that and that our minds are so busy now that it's so easy to be influenced by one of these shortcuts

[00:52:17] that we really have to set a time to take a mental step back and think and breathe before we make decisions our education is adopting to the new ecosystem now I think this is what it looks like we're having to learn that we have to have information overload

[00:52:35] our brains weren't processing information like this as quickly until the last 10-15 years and it's a lot to take in and figure that out and there needs to be a totally new education system to understand the new world in a lot of ways

[00:52:47] or we'll have a lot of this I think what you're saying is also one way to feel good about all the pain and all the bad stuff that we had to go through is that actually being an occult is like an extreme but

[00:53:01] the knowledge that we have to have to survive and to heal coming out is actually something that the world needs right now Sarah and I have said this is the lane that's opened up to us so if we don't turn our story into wisdom

[00:53:15] we actually are helping people and this is a part of the new way to take your story Wait, are we saving the children? No You're making lemonade of your We're saving people We're giving people more information to make more informed decisions Yes, well that's such good advice

[00:53:33] it's such good advice and this is like such good nuggets. A lot of our listeners are survivors and so this is helpful and for the listeners who are survivors can you give us some nuggets about how to increase self-compassion after moral injury and betrayal trauma? I can

[00:53:47] First of all, you know, shame. The shame has been the harsh inner critic, the shame has many faces and it tells me that I'm a bad person that I'm bad, something bad happened to me because I'm a bad person That's what the shame says

[00:54:01] And so Roxy as I was called in the group and has a lot of exiled. She was exiled I was so ashamed of her I don't want to talk to her and remember her or anything So I think that healing for me is really, you know

[00:54:15] meeting Roxy, going back to my 19 year old, creating a safe space where I can listen to her inside my body And I couldn't do any of these things without the help of my therapist and so the most important thing that we do is to get a beautiful therapist

[00:54:31] and mine has this beautiful brown eyes and it's just the most loving presence that has been so healing that she has been an empathic witness holding my hand as I go back and remember what happened And so that's one part of healing but the other part is in

[00:54:49] everyday life where the shame attacks me you know, for instance before I'm coming on this podcast it's there, you know every time I'm exposed myself fear comes and what I do is I sit down, take a deep breath and I stay with the pain

[00:55:07] for a bit and I just know that there is some wisdom there and often I use my hands when I listen into my body and I listen to the message and it's usually the same old same old stuff that you are inadequate you're still everybody else

[00:55:25] you don't have anything to contribute you know like and I know that story so well now and before I used to hate myself because I had this criticism and fear but now I see them as protectors and that's been so helpful that yeah, because

[00:55:39] you know these voices helped me survive the cult it was a very smart thing to do to subjugate of course it would have been smarter to run away earlier but because in my mind there was no way to fight or to flee and so the brain actually makes

[00:55:55] this decision to subjugate to the situation and I became Roxy a very pleasing you know to the authoritarian leader that I had and to understand that they are protected parts helps me create a distance to what's going on and that kind of distance helps me to regulate

[00:56:15] down those difficult emotions it's basically that if I'm driving the car my protector parts especially shame and fear is in the backseat and I'm always driving with them they are here with me they're probably never but I just make sure that I'm saying okay, you see you back

[00:56:35] but mom is driving and it's gonna be okay it's safe to talk with a little bit culty, I'm not going to be shamed or ridiculed on that podcast so you know it's okay that you are warning me but this is not dangerous

[00:56:51] it's like a conversation with an inner child or a part of yourself that's there but not really you it's also extracting positives out of those voices like you know, mine is embarrassment sometimes, shame embarrassment sometimes that you know I quote fell for it and all that stuff

[00:57:07] there's something to that and you have to figure out what that message is I think you've done that I learned from a psychologist called Janina Fisher that the belief on worthiness is not a feeling it's a belief to understand that

[00:57:23] what would have happened if I had said to Cornell you are hurting me I don't want to be treated that way you know, what would have happened actually I could have been killed absolutely and so it was so smart to feel unworthy

[00:57:37] it was so smart to subject you self protective and I did survive and so learning about trauma responses in the body really helps us normalize and to see that it was a smart thing that it's not and I think the principles does the same

[00:57:53] you know, it normalizes those shortcut thinking that when you look around the room and you see everybody else doing something and you automatically do the same even though it's not a smart thing it would have been smart if there was a burning building

[00:58:07] and you see everybody running so our brains are designed to run when everybody else is running which is given that it's true a very smart thing to do right it's such a good nugget I think every episode we do gives us another little tool like that

[00:58:25] certainly for Nipi and I in this whole journey of recovery and coming out, that's what drove it I was like what the fuck just happened to me how did I let this happen how did I ask for you know

[00:58:37] now we know I was told to ask for it so it wouldn't appear coerced but you know that drive to understand is what yields these conversations and I'm so glad that you decided to do it with us and share your wisdom right now I'm just thinking about

[00:58:51] recovery and a very powerful question and that is how did that help you survive if you have a lot of self criticism and self doubts ask yourself how did that help you survive and framing it reframing it as a survival response is really taking the shame away or

[00:59:11] turning down the volume of that shame voice and seeing also how shame is helped us survive for sure making notes of that and you're here now telling it yeah it's safe now it's safe you survive I should get high five and you'll have you work or cheers

[00:59:31] what's the bear again two burq two burq did you live in Copenhagen no I lived in Israel we had two burq there all right I've never been to Copenhagen I've never been to Norway there's so many places I haven't been to

[00:59:43] I was in a cult for 12 years is my excuse but I'm coming to visit you there's a famous jazz fest in Denmark every July correct right yeah I've heard about that someone's telling me about that and in Norway as well Norway okay

[00:59:57] we're gonna come visit you actually I have a Norwegian roots Edmondson is British and Norwegian all right so cool there we go stay with the Edmondson's I don't know if it's too late to ask these questions but I'm thinking about the branding and my name change

[01:00:11] as something psychologically similar something that really brands your identity and takes away your privacy in a way like your true identity is really harm well let me ask you let me ask you whose idea was it to change your name a million dollar question

[01:00:29] a million dollar question yeah right and that's definitely been a through line we've seen with a lot of groups people change their names I was thinking I wasn't gonna mention this to the outro but I didn't have a name change but in

[01:00:39] next year as you go up the straight path as Proctor Edmondson and then senior Proctor Edmondson which is similar to a name change but it's you know it's an identity it's an identity and then and then later it really identified as a DOS slave under master

[01:00:55] Ranieri but anyway what's next for you Catherine what are you working on now tell us about where people can find you and all those things right so I'm going to give that what's next for me now is this I'm going to give it a

[01:01:03] talk on chain with Ixa and this is on this coming Sunday so I'm not sure when this pod is coming out but it's going to be on YouTube later great well this will be at least three or four

[01:01:13] weeks so we'll make sure we put that link in the show notes right and so because of this article I also got a book deal surprise I was gonna ask you I'm sure I'm sure somebody snap that up yeah and so I'm very happy about that so

[01:01:27] my book will be coming in next year I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure that so my book will be coming in a year amazing thank you and then then I have a private there's practice here in Norway and I can do

[01:01:41] Skype or I can do therapy online if somebody wants to do that we'd love to support you will totally promote the book when it's out I'm going to put myself up there to audition to read your book unless you're gonna read it yourself if you need

[01:01:53] an English audible I would love to do it great great I did Yanya Lalich's my book yeah that was beautiful I heard you do I love that this is a great book and are you on Instagram and social media or yes I'm on Instagram and social media

[01:02:07] and I still need to learn so I'm I'm very happy to receive feedback on what how to become more social media savvy it's a process it's a process and it's always changing to we can barely keep up all the apps kids these days

[01:02:23] yeah but it keeps us on the ball I just also want to say just thank you for a little bit called the podcast and just the next season two you know it's so interesting is so educational and fulfilling to listen to your reflections

[01:02:39] it really is so meaningful to me it changes to I'm so happy yeah and I can't believe I haven't mentioned this sooner but Catherine I connected because of the hashtag I got out movement so that's another thing that we're both doing and

[01:02:53] there anything you want to say about that and how that's helped you yeah yeah I would never be able to tell my story if it wasn't for knowing that it's not my story yes it's my story but it's not my story meaning that it's also your

[01:03:07] story and it's everybody's story that these similarities talking about abuses are so important to create a trauma informed society and to create resilience against extremism which which is very similar recruitment tactics to cult tactics but we are on the same page we're part of the hashtag

[01:03:27] you have a friend and a supporters in us I'm so glad that we were able to spend this time and your story is remarkable it's brave your whole arc is such a journey of compassion and resilience like you just said so thank you thank you Catherine thank you

[01:03:43] Sarah I think we could have spoken with her for a long long time do anything we say that with a lot of our podcast guest but specifically Catherine I just feel such a closeness and camaraderie with her it was identical identical but that's the thing when I first

[01:04:12] heard about this like when she was introduced to us I was like okay a cult in you know Norway in the 80s this is going to be a real departure but it totally wasn't I mean I mean it's crazy it's like the exact same profile

[01:04:26] the same tactics the same it got me thinking of like how could that be so similar in two different eras two different countries it's like they're all friends it's like they have a private signal group and they're like okay they just pump out these psychopaths

[01:04:42] and they all have the same like fuck it's crazy and the thing that I was thinking about after she spoke about it and this is I'm sure this will be in her book in more detail the moment where she woke up

[01:04:50] and how she says she saw his anger and she like all the red flags made sense it's like when we realized okay Keith is a charlatan he's not who he says he is everything all the things that never lined up over

[01:05:00] and then when we realized that he was suddenly we're clear it's like you know we talked about with the sixth sense and you find out that Bruce Willis is dead spoiler alert sorry you're like oh that's why he wasn't talking to her she wasn't talking to him

[01:05:14] because she couldn't see him it's like okay that all made sense so that wake up moment was so well articulated and I'm sure we'll learn more about that in the book and maybe one day the movie also she's great because she has pretty precise language to the abuse

[01:05:28] it's good to know there's another person out there that's doing that and we mentioned a lot of links we'll put them in the show notes please check those out please come join us on Patreon please like and subscribe write a review Patrion as my friend Caroline

[01:05:42] thought it was an alcoholic beverage it is an application you can download and get bonus content bonus photos Patreon lite we actually just posted some curriculum than no one's seen before and I think if you're not following us there you're going to enjoy it so

[01:05:58] see you there and have a great week everybody see you next time bye music hope you liked this episode let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week

[01:06:30] and we'll be back with more episodes just for Patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of the VAL and if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch

[01:06:42] or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources visit our website at a littlebitculti.com and for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called Scarred the true story of how I escaped Maxim, the cult that found my life

[01:06:56] it's available on Amazon, Audible, Narrated by My Life and at most bookstores A Little Bit Culty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nipy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy

[01:07:12] we're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound and our amazing theme song, Cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening