A Little Bit Culty x WTF is on my Mind?! - Kicked Out of Our Own Book Launch (Part 2)

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[00:02:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Nippy Ames.

[00:02:30] And this is A Little Bit Culty, the podcast where we unpack cults, control, and coercion. We woke up from a cult. The whole wild ride ended up in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now after eight seasons of hearing every kind of culty story imaginable, we've bottled up everything we've learned into a book, also called A Little Bit Kulti. It's available now in all formats on Amazon, Audible, and where fine books are sold. Or get a signed personalized copy on our website.

[00:02:56] Better yet, ask your local bookstore or library to order it and encourage them to get on that cult awareness bandwagon. On the show, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations about how everyday groups can slide into the cultiverse. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to talk red flags, resilience, and recovery. And yes, we still make time to laugh. Sometimes you have to, or you'll cry.

[00:03:21] Want early ad-free episodes, live Q&As, and exclusive extras? Join us on Patreon at patreon.com slash alittlebitkulti. Welcome to Season 9 of A Little Bit Kulti. Taking down, taking down to the ocean.

[00:03:46] Hey everybody, welcome back. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, please go do that first, because this one won't make any sense at all. In Part 1, Nippy and I sat down with Mark Vicente and walked through what happened on July 21st at Massey Books. And today, we're not summarizing it anymore. We're playing you the last stretch of the night, straight from the tape. No cuts, so you can just listen and decide for yourself. Please let us know how you were affected by this episode.

[00:04:14] Again, staying out of the content and sticking with the process. Welcome to Part 2 with Mark Vicente.

[00:04:56] I totally feel you. This is such a complicated thing for me as well. Well, it's complicated for me as somebody who's raised Jewish, spent time in Israel, was in a cult. Wait, wait, hold on. You don't know my perspective yet. You don't know my perspective yet. Doesn't like Netanyahu. Believes that Israel should exist. Doesn't like what they've done in Palestine. thinks that fundamentalist Islam is a death cult. Thinks that fundamentalist Judaism is culty. Zionism can be culty.

[00:05:25] It's not one or the other. This is what I encourage people to think. It's not black and white. It's so complicated. It's so nuanced. What is it? What is it complicated that 72,000 children have been? Absolutely. Actually, that's not complicated. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't know any single Jewish person in my community, left or right wing and along the spectrum, that wants that or likes that. A hundred percent.

[00:05:51] What is also a problem at the same time is a group of people who believe that all Jews should die and it is in their doctrine. So there's two conflicting cultish belief systems at war. That belief that Palestine should be free does not have to be in relation to... Patricia. Patricia. I'm going to interrupt you for a second. This is exactly what I did not want to do in this environment. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:23] I was actually warned by some people in the Jewish community that I'm going... I a hundred percent understand that. You don't even know... You don't even know what I'm... You want me to take a stand. You want me to take a stand because of where I am and you haven't even heard what my stance is. And we actually could be very much in agreement, but that's not my point right now. I don't know. Like, do you believe there's a genocide? Yeah. I believe there's awful, awful things happening in Israel that most people that I know... Yes.

[00:06:53] And Israel. Hold on a second. Hold on. Hold on. This is exactly... The very point I brought up like 10 minutes ago is exactly what I didn't want to do here. Because when we get into this type of debate, it's... You're putting me in a box. You haven't even heard what I believe yet. And you... Well, hold on. That's not my... My point is right now. My point is that there's a division of you going left and right, black and white, Palestine versus Gaza. And I'm talking about something that is not as black and white as you think. And so that's...

[00:07:23] For you, there's not a debate. That's fine. You can have that stance. I'm not disagreeing. You can have that stance. Who actually believes that? To stand up and say something. Patricia, I'm not disagreeing with you about that. That's the part that makes me upset is that you are... Have really beautiful beliefs that you and I probably agree on 99% of the things. Okay. I want you to just start there. Okay.

[00:07:49] From that point, the insurgence of the community and the... The cause and all of things, those things around it have us and them, which is part of the book, us and them, right and wrong. You went into that immediately with me before you even heard what my beliefs were. And that's what I'm talking about is the problem. That's the problem. Because we're making it seem like there's a debate. There's no...

[00:08:15] What is a debate for me that I think gets lost by perhaps people in your community around this is that there is a force on the other side, the fundamentalist Islamic force that does not want the West to exist, has to also be looked at at the same time. Not one or the other.

[00:08:38] We're here to talk about a book about extremism and not have you hijack our thing about your political beliefs, if you don't mind. I can leave. I can actually... If you want me to leave, I'm happy to leave, Patricia, but I think that defeats the purpose. And... I think you should stay. Well, I don't think Patricia wants us here, so...

[00:09:04] I don't want to provide a space and a place for people to situate the situation. The issue with Palestine and Gaza is debatable. It is not... Patricia, can you dial it back for a second to hear me out for a minute before my... Just wait a second. Patricia. Hold on. Nippy, can you wait one second? Okay. Okay. Okay, great. I'm going to share your thoughts. Can I say something?

[00:09:31] I lived in Israel and spent time with the Muslim people and worked with them about the two-state exclusion. I have been there. Have you lived in Israel? Have you spent time there? I have a family and I... From over there, yes. I didn't know about the issues. And it's such about that. It's about the ICC. It's about all these other places. I don't disagree. That's what I'm talking about. You think that I'm against you and I'm actually with you about a lot of those things. I find that the way you're talking about the genocide is very problematic.

[00:10:00] What part of what I'm saying is problematic? You're saying that it's debatable. I never said the genocide was debatable. I said the whole situation has more nuance than what some people understand, including... I'm not talking about the genocide. The genocide is a component of it. And I agree with you about that. And I said that I hate it and it makes me cry at night and it keeps me up. I'm not talking about that. You're not hearing me, Patricia. I'm not disagreeing with you.

[00:10:27] I'm talking about something in addition to that that gets overlooked. In addition to... Yes. Can I ask a very deep question? Yeah. And there's so many beautiful philosophical questions. But I moved here after FD Acappelin and the Valve had come out. And I'm just interested in so much of what it sounds about for the Vancouver Centre was so different. Like you were saying before, there was a real separation between those, the really inner level of NXIVM and what was happening with Vancouver.

[00:10:55] Just interested in your kind of like what the experience was of that centre. I want to answer that question, but I'm kind of in fight or flight from this last conversation. And Patricia, I came to this space to have a conversation. Somebody actually saw that I was doing a thing here and said, just so you know, you're going into left woke territory. And I go, I don't give a shit. I'm here to talk about something that pertains to everybody. And I don't actually think that that is in that category.

[00:11:25] I think that there's extreme thinking on left and the right. And we have to talk about it. And just the fact that you don't even know what I think before you told me I should go is... Well, the position... I don't... Can you say anything? Can you say anything? Yes. Can you say that? I said, put your chicken here. I didn't hear her say anything either way.

[00:11:53] Honestly, for me personally, it's such a struggle to have an opinion about anything that I can't do anything about. I just, in my own way, pray because I have been in a Christian cult growing up. So I'm kind of... I believe something, but I don't know how to pray. But I still believe something.

[00:12:19] And when I just pray for peace and to not offend. But number one, do no harm. And there's so much harm going on on both sides. I just throw my hands up and just... I don't think I have the right to an opinion. And I think you have the right to an opinion because of your family and your background.

[00:12:47] And I didn't hear an actual stance being said before the triggering that happened for you. And I'm so sorry that you got triggered. I think we all are sensitive. It's like some of those children in Palestine don't have an opinion. They don't get to have an opinion. Well, why do you think I don't care about that? Do you know that I did a play about peace in the Middle East? Just... Christina, do you want to say that?

[00:13:16] I'm just happy to see Sarah. She doesn't live a great career. She's had an amazing career. She's come through so much. This is her night. This is her chance to just share the insights that she and her husband have gained and fought for. And that's what this night is about. And I appreciate the passion and the righteousness that you have. And that the act is, you know, that that is happening daily.

[00:13:43] That's necessary to stop the madness that is happening over there. Absolutely. I think we could all agree on that. Yeah. What I'm getting triggered by is that I'm good friends. And I love my friends. And, you know, there is no reason to place that on individual people. This isn't Sarah. Sarah has nothing to do with the conflict. It's like whatever. You have to suspend some of that right now for a moment that actually honors Bruce Deitch.

[00:14:12] That honors our Jewish sisters are, you know, nothing. I'm the most left-wing Jewish person you've ever met. Okay. So, and there's lots of us out there. And so you don't, again, you don't know my stance. Thank you. Yeah. We're here to learn. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:35] That's why we have interviewed people on both sides of the issue so we can create a bridge. That is my goal. That is my goal is for peace in the Middle East, for children to not be killed. That is my goal. So that's, hold on, hold on, Patricia. Patricia. Why are we closing your idea of what different paths is? We have different paths. What I'm saying to you, this has never happened to me before for the record. Okay.

[00:15:04] I'm doing my best to, thank you. Thank you. And I almost canceled the event because I was warned this might happen. And I said, you know what? I want to have a conversation with people. It's the space bar. Yeah. Is there a $100? Yeah. We can go somewhere else. Would that be better? If you don't, if you don't want me here, I'm happy to go. I did not know. It's going to be this way. I did not know your position.

[00:15:33] You haven't even heard my position yet. The shit. Yeah. The shit. I don't know your shit. I don't know your shit. I don't know your shit. If you're listening. Yeah. If you're not listening, it's not a thing over. I don't care about selling books. I don't care about selling books. I care about bridging division. And to me, this is part of the problem. The fact that you've othered me and put me in a box without even hurt. It's time to leave. Thank you for proving my point.

[00:16:03] Goodbye, everybody. We'll go meet outside. Let's play that. I want to have you play that because when I contrasted what I heard in the recording to what she said, I thought it was really interesting because she seemed to frame herself as the aggrieved party. Yeah. That was the noble one, I thought. Yeah. That's her self-identity. What is this business with blocking people as well, by the way? She blocked us before she posted it. She blocked you before she posted it.

[00:16:32] Why would she do that? Because she knew that we could add more truth to it. And people that came and stuck up for us, she deleted their post. Okay. I'm going to play it. It was a shiqshu. Unfortunately, at tonight's event for the book launch of A Little Bit Culti, about 20 minutes into the event, a conversation came up about Israel and Palestine.

[00:16:56] And the author, one of the authors decided to reference Islam as some sort of death culti. Not what you said, right? Nope. Fundamentals. And a conversation didn't come up. She brought it up. She brought the conversation up. Okay. I'm going to keep on going. Fundamentalist group. And at which point, you know, I piped up and said, you know, yo, that's Islamophobic. She never said that. And we just started to get into an argument.

[00:17:26] And I basically said that Massey will not be a place or a space where you can come in here and try to persuade audience members that it's, you know, there's good people on both sides and that there's a debate. You know, there's a genocide. And there's no room for debate on that. And so I asked the authors to leave. I stopped the event, asked them to go down the street in the park and finish their little culti conversation.

[00:17:55] Yeah, it's really unfortunate that this event happened in Massey. I'm not sure why they came here, knowing our position. I did ask them, you know, why they decided to come here, knowing our position. But, you know, she said she was warned that we were a woke store and that she should be, you know, just cautious. So, yeah, it was unfortunate that half the room was yelling at me and I had to ask them to leave.

[00:18:25] And I'm really sorry to everyone that was here who witnessed that and who came out for a good night. It's unfortunate. Yeah. Next time I will make sure to research who is coming into the space. Yeah, I apologize to everyone that attended. Yeah. So I find it interesting. I don't know Patricia at all. I find given the recording that I've listened to and her statement, that is a noble statement. Wasn't it moving? Really.

[00:18:55] It's very noble. I changed my beliefs too. Given what you went through and listening to the recording, which we will play parts of, how does it feel when you see a statement like that, which basically in essence vilifies you completely actually? It undermines us. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I feel myself like disassociating right now because if I really settle into how upsetting it was to hear that,

[00:19:21] the night of, by the way, as I was trying to decompress in the bath after all that, and then to see that, it's just like my dear sister-in-law, Stephanie, was consoling me for the 48 hours afterwards and like trying to help me get back on track was like, you just have to keep reminding yourself you're a good person. You're a good person. And this person is saying I'm not a good person. Mm-hmm. To say I'm not a good person.

[00:19:50] And the, like I know I'm a good person. I know Nippy's a good person. I know who I am. It's just really, it's very difficult to, to, to A, be called out on something that I'm not and then have no place to correct it. And I will say like that in and of itself, I think would be upsetting for anybody. Like anybody who has a conflict like that in public would, it would be upsetting. I think.

[00:20:18] I mean, even Nippy walked out and he was less frazzled by it than I was for sure. And I think there's another level of upset. This is just left over from NXIVM. Like to be cut off from somebody and some people, in our case a community, who were reframing the narrative that we were the bad guys in the scenario. And to not be able to like talk about it and heal that rupture. And by the way, with many people we still haven't.

[00:20:48] Yeah. And that's, like for me, interpersonal challenges are very difficult. And like I don't need her to like me. I don't need her to, I don't need to be friends with her. But it does bother me that she put out something into the world. And however many people, thousands of people saw that and have an opinion about us. And piled on. And piled on. And took time out of their day to message me and say things like, shame on you.

[00:21:16] Shame on you for supporting the genocide. I saw that. I saw in the comments. I saw the comments were overwhelmingly positive towards her and negative towards you guys. Well, she deleted the ones that came on. We had a lot of people comment on it and she just went straight and deleted. There was at least 15 to 20 comments of people that were there and friends of ours that had our back afterwards that went in to let her know. And not in an inflammatory way. Just like, actually, that's not what happened.

[00:21:42] One of the guests who was in the front row specifically went in and said, actually, can I just read you real quick what he said? Because he sent this. He sent me a screenshot. Yeah. Afterwards, he's like, can I help? I'm like, well, we can't comment if you want to help. And he wrote, hey, Mel, they aren't. I think the owner of Massey Books misinterpreted the whole conversation. It was shocking and made me sad how little this person was present in the conversation. Sarah was very clear when she mentioned that religious extremism on all sides are bad.

[00:22:10] And she 100% agreed with the owner that genocide is bad. And then somebody wrote, lots of people in the comments who were at the event say otherwise. Defending Zionist Islamophobes is not a good look for anyone. So I think for that reason, it's important to put the recording out so people can actually hear what happened. And I do want to just let everybody know, I was the one that asked Nippy and Sarah for this interview.

[00:22:38] You know, they weren't trying to come out and do any kind of a big statement. I was the one who wanted to talk to them. And as you guys can see, they're having enormous difficulty, like, you know, with this conversation because of how painful it is. The thing I keep coming back to is what she's reporting about what happened versus what happened. I mean, it's a lie. It's not true. It's all a lie. So here's the thing, Mark.

[00:23:04] I think what we're talking about too, in a lot of ways, is the cancel culture. And the cancel culture using this cloak of altruism to do malevolent behaviors. And she knows the power of cancel culture. You're being kicked out of the tribe on a primal level. That's what cancel culture is. You're out alone. You have to fend for yourself. So she's controlling the narrative, right? And this is why I got out of the room because I knew that it was going to be reframed this way. And this is what she does. And she has a history of it.

[00:23:32] If you go online, you can tell that she had other events. Yeah. Yeah. I have the forensics for that. You can show you. She's got a bunch of different scandals in her bookstore. And she's always the victim. She's always the victim. Oh, okay. And she was handing out a purity test that clearly she doesn't pass herself, which makes her even more dangerous to me. So for me, I think it's just important to get away from those people as quickly as possible and not let the grenade go off near you.

[00:24:01] Yes, but I see- Mark, when I see it, I get away from it. The best fight is the one you don't fight. And I saw her. That's what she wanted. I get it. But I see also that this has affected you guys deeply. It's the injustice of it, Mark. It's the fact that I have clarity. She doesn't. My clarity is going to be used as some sort of evidence of my guilt. And so for me, my hands are tied.

[00:24:31] Especially me. I'm white male, 6'2", 210. Like, I can't go do anything in that situation without being painted as the villain. Loving the podcast? Now you can listen to the book, too. A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control, and Coercion is now out on Audible. Yes, it is narrated by us. So you get the stories, the hard-won wisdom, and even a few tangents that didn't make it into the paperback. The book takes what we've learned from our own experience inside NXIVM and from hundreds

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[00:30:47] I have a certain takeaway from this, but what's your guys' takeaway? And if you pull back a little bit, and I know that's hard because you guys are feeling a lot of stuff. And Sarah, I think that I was texting you when you were in the bath trying to recover from that whole thing. And you messaged me about what happened, which is what really got me thinking about this. What's your takeaway? Given what you guys stand for and you guys do stand for something, and everything you talk about, and that we all talk about, what's your takeaway about what happened there?

[00:31:16] And what was the missed opportunity that is potentially quite sad? If I try to step back a little bit from it, Mark, I feel like, and I need to just say one more thing that happened because we didn't really get to this. Somebody who saw the video or Patricia's video or somebody who was there, which is unlikely because most of the people who were there were supportive of us, contacted our next

[00:31:43] venue, the church that I met, that we had planned to have our event in three days later. So Tuesday was Massey. Wednesday night, we got an email from the Reverend. Anyway, we had this conversation with the Reverend a couple weeks after the event because he canceled it and was very apologetic. But I wrote him and said, listen, given the information you had, I understand why you had to cancel the event. I wish that we'd had a conversation or I could have played you the audio, which we have, miraculously.

[00:32:09] And you would have known that not only are we not Islamophobes, but just the absurdity of that. She missed an opportunity. She missed an opportunity. And now they're canceling the church's out 800 bucks, which is what I was going to pay to rent it. Anyway, we had a great conversation after the dust had settled a bit. And he was like, we had a conversation about generational trauma. And, you know, of course, like I know I bring not only my generational trauma of the issue

[00:32:36] itself, but like my own trauma around conflict and, you know, the interpersonal challenges I mentioned. I'm sure I can give her the benefit of the doubt. This is clearly a hot topic for her. And she doesn't have the tools to, this is like my generous side, right? Like I could walk up one side of her and down the other in terms of like how I feel about how she treated me. But if I try to like take a step back, you know, she doesn't have the tools to humanize. It was just that this is the part, by the way, that I find so amazingly ironic.

[00:33:06] Right. This is a bookstore that has, you know, a pride flag and is pro-inclusivity and which, of course, we are pro as well, just to be clear, if anybody wants us to take a stand on that. And cannot be inclusive enough to have a conversation with somebody who may or may not think differently than her, which she didn't even really get to. I didn't even get to lay out my full perspective because she cut me off and put words in my mouth and pushed it to a place. But you're right.

[00:33:35] She did frame it in a way that like I could only answer in a way like I was damned no matter what. There is no way to, to, yeah. Which is, again, the reason why we haven't put out a statement. And the people who listen to this and side with her about that and about the issue itself are missing the point here. See, the thing that I find interesting about what you're saying as well is the dehumanization. Like if I just go back, let's take my metaphor. Like I care about children being trafficked, right? And I think there's millions being trafficked.

[00:34:05] It's terrible. But if I'm willing to go, let's say you guys are in a parenting group and I come in and I start like laying my shit on you guys. If I start dehumanizing you, because I'm so busy humanizing these, these child victims. If I start dehumanizing you as well for not giving me the answer I want, then like I've lost. Well, also you're a hypocrite. I've lost my story. But you're not who you say you are as well. Right. Because you're not human. Morally. Consistency.

[00:34:34] That means I'm not pro-humanity. You're pro being right. Well, Mark, the people that have all these empathy for these causes and all, do you really think they believe that? That's a good question. Do you really think their day-to-day is just like, oh my God, what's going on over there? And they can't demonstrate it in their own life? I think you're being optimistic. I think people leverage social causes for their own social equity. Okay. Because you don't have to do the work. Two things.

[00:35:03] I think there's two things. The one is I could really care about this thing and be so fervent and get so lost in my feelings that I don't give a shit about you. And I just want you to open your mouth and say what I want you to say. And then the other is, and that's why I made Narcissist Playbook, there are malignant pathologies, people with malignant pathologies that work their way to the top of things like this because there's so much power that they can get.

[00:35:30] I'm not making a statement about Patricia, by the way, if anybody, lawyers are like, did he just say? No, he didn't. I don't think this is Patricia. I don't think she's like the malignant. But I do think that if you're going to stand for something, then I feel like you need to be fairly consistent if you're pro certain things. If you're pro being open, then I think you also need to be pro being open-minded. I thought there was an amazing opportunity there, and I know that was impossible, for

[00:35:57] really understanding the difference between a specific thing and the pattern of a thing. And I commend you, Sarah, although you were fighting a losing battle that you never could have won, but I commend you for staying there and trying. You never would have won. But I commend you because that's wonderful. Thank you. I think I said, I never said that. I never said that. That's not what I said multiple times.

[00:36:25] And I did ask the audience when I came out, like, what could I have done differently? How could I have reached her? How could I have not ended it in that way? So let me ask you that. The answer was nothing. Not to put you more on the spot, but what could you have done differently? I mean, Nippy, you made your decision. Is there anything you regret? Yeah. There's a couple of things I regret. I wish that I had not taken the bait because I did take the bait in the end and said, okay. We basically was like, okay, fine. You want to get into it?

[00:36:54] This is why it's not black and white for me and tried to explain my position. I should never have done that. I should have said, I'm not going to do this with you. If you want to have a political conversation, we can do that elsewhere. Tonight, we're talking about cults. Do you want to talk about it or not? That's what I wish I'd said. Sorry. No, I'm not going to do that. I see this as a very hot topic for you. There's lots of podcasts dedicated to geopolitics. Not going to do it. It would have been the perfect. Yeah. That would have been much better. Right.

[00:37:23] And then I think you also shared with me, I don't remember, it was a message or what you said. But woke. Yeah. Yes. Tell me about that. So, yeah. I mean, it's just such a loaded word. And when we were warned about coming, that's what the word the person used. And I made the mistake of telling her, you know, this is your reputation. And that was a little bit. You're human. Yeah. I mean, I just, I shouldn't have done it. What I wish I had said is, you know, we were warned if it got this far, which I wish it hadn't.

[00:37:52] But we were warned that you were indoctrinated into a way of thinking and you wouldn't be able to have a civil discourse. That's what I wish I had said. I used the word woke, which was then used against me because now I'm racist for calling her woke. Oh, I see. Okay. She would have made something else up. That's what she was doing. Yeah. Listen. She wrote us an email. You want to tell me about the email? What was the email? Wait, she wrote an email. We wrote an email. When we were squaring up whatever book deal we had, we sold a book or two there.

[00:38:20] She wrote back, you don't have permission to use my name or likeness. Oh, okay. Because she knew we had the recording. Well, she didn't agree to the recording of the event, which to me was- Well, we told her we were recording in her room. In her room. You said you were recording because I remember you saying that. Yes. She said she didn't agree to it in the email. To me, it would be an opportunity to clear it up and prove my point. Well, that's what I'm thinking.

[00:38:44] If she was right, then the recording would be good. I would request it. I don't understand. If it was right, I would request it. Great. Let me have it. Right. So then does she maybe think that there's something that happened there that- I'm very confused. Why would she not want the video to be- Yeah.

[00:39:09] That is the actual data of what occurred to be heard that would then give her position more power? I'm not clear on that. You're asking the right questions, Mark. That is a good question. You're asking the right questions. I don't have the answer, but I really want the audience to fucking dig deep and fucking think about that question. That doesn't make sense to me at all. Well, I had another question for you. Yes.

[00:39:39] This other thing that I'm thinking is so interesting that I'd love to talk about is the idea that any disagreement is seen as somehow harmful. Because I hear a lot of people wanting to shut down discourse if somebody disagrees as somehow being harmful. And I'm really trying to understand what it is that's so harmful about disagreement. And I think you guys both have this position, which is like, okay, we have disagreement. Great. Let's hash it out. Let's talk about it.

[00:40:09] We'll learn things. I think that's your position, right? Yeah. I mean, I think that's the horrible collateral damage of the, not necessarily cancel culture, but just the division that's currently occurring right now about not just this topic, but so many other topics. People that hear that somebody is the opposite, especially in the U.S., of whatever they voted for, then they can't communicate with the person.

[00:40:36] I mean, for sure, there's extremes where there's, you know, it's not maybe not safe to, but like, just like neighbors, like, oh, this or that. They were like, well, when did it get this way? Time to pump the brakes on the culty talk for a minute. Let's hear about our sponsors. This message is sponsored by Raycon.

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[00:45:21] work that we're doing is, and the work I'm doing is not exactly the same as yours, but it's very adjacent. I think the work we're doing is so important because we can take a number of different things and look at it and say, oh, these are the elements. These are the strategies. These are the patterns at play. Like one of the things people have asked me to do all the time with Norse's Playbook is like, oh, this is all about Trump. And I go, well, it's actually all about any political leader that uses these things. And they want me to go like hard on Trump. And I say things like, okay, look, you want to talk about grandiose narcissism?

[00:45:51] Okay, there. But what about all the other kinds of narcissism that's even sneakier that you can't see because you're so busy focusing on... It's distracting, right? I want to propose to our audiences that they would have listened to a good deal of the recording. They've heard some of your thoughts. They've probably seen and felt some of your emotions. They've seen what Patricia posted publicly. They've heard the eyewitness account.

[00:46:19] I think it would be great for the audience to be able to say, look, what are the patterns they see at play? Not the specifics, not getting into the trenches of like this political thing and that movement and this army and these people. And like, what are the patterns that the audience sees that we may not have discussed? I think that would be an amazing thing to get the audience to like share like what they're you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. Like that.

[00:46:46] And I want to stay within the framework of like the things that we talk about in the book in terms of right versus wrong, us versus them, righteous thinking, extremism. Identity politics. Thinking that you have the... Can you define identity politics? So when you... What's basically when you have identity politics, you identify with the belief system and then when it's challenged, you feel attacked rather than it's the belief being attacked.

[00:47:13] You've handed over kind of your morality or your cues to this identity. Right? So you confuse yourself with your politics. You confuse yourself with it. And when it's... When the idea... And you need criticism to evolve, right? You need to find the weak spots of whatever it is you're doing. If you can't take a criticism and not feel attacked by it, then you're never going to really be able to grow. And so you're kind of stuck. And I think... Yeah. Patricia has a little bit of that. I think that's a good definition.

[00:47:42] I'm also thinking about when you get so stuck in the ideology. Like I keep thinking about, you know, people who are stuck in an issue like let's say a political party and you believe so much that political party has to win, but you don't care what the political party does. Like you basically abandon your own morality and you think that your political party can do whatever it wants to because it has to win and you're confusing yourself with your party, with your ideology.

[00:48:08] And literally what people in your party are wanting or your side are wanting are actually horrific and reprehensible. But you're so stuck on, well, I'm, you know, I'm this party or I'm this group or I'm this whatever. So I think that's also a huge issue. You know, it's funny. I think it's not sexy to talk about the pattern, but like I literally think if we don't, we're screwed because I also believe that there are people, forces, whatever that are triangulating us against each other. Yeah, for sure.

[00:48:37] Like there are certain issues in the news, but there's all these other issues that are not only news that are just as terrible, just as horrible. And there's no airtime whatsoever. And I go, well, why is that getting no airtime? Let's go back to my favorite thing, which is sex trafficking. Why is there so little about that? And for instance, when people make movies about it, they call it like right-wing propaganda. And like I told you guys, I've spoken to some of the people in law enforcement, like

[00:49:04] they're struggling with what to do because there's no money being allowed for them to put these people away because maybe some of the people are the people who write the laws. So why are certain issues being pushed and certain are not? And I believe that we're being triangulated. We're being turned against each other. And it's sad to me that what happened in the bookstore was like people are ideologically infected to attack other human beings if they don't share their thinking. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:34] Yes. That is exactly the problem. Yes. She was attacked me for not sharing her exact thinking, which ironically, I didn't even get to fully explain. Yeah. Because I know you and there's a lot of stuff. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that you are very disturbed about, you know, with the stuff. I know that. That's very sad. I don't think we're going to solve this today, are we? No, we're not going to solve it. Can I just tangent for a second and again, cut it if you think it's irrelevant, but you said we're being pitted against each other.

[00:50:04] I took a break, what I thought was going to be a break from cult content last week and saw a screening of a film here in Atlanta that a friend of mine organized about motherhood in America. And it was called No Country for Mothers. And it's a really good documentary. And I, again, thought I was taking a break. But really what I left with was going, oh my goodness, even within motherhood and whether or not you work or don't work, mothers are being pitted against each other.

[00:50:30] We judge whatever you decide to do, the other side is wrong. And not only that, it's been politicized, which I didn't know as a Canadian. I mean, in general, as the right wing trad wife movie movement becomes more of a thing, then it's better to stay at home with the kids. And this is a total generalization. The more left working mothers believe that it should be covered by the government.

[00:50:56] And there's a right versus right, wrong, left, right, working, non-working division within mothers. And we don't support each other and we judge each other. And I was like, oh my God, there's culty. I mean, it's not a cult, obviously, but the same patterns. That's pretty culty. That's so interesting. You know, and I want to just say for the audience, because they'll resonate with this, Ranieri was pitting everybody against each other. Yes. We were constantly being pitted against each other. Yeah.

[00:51:22] And I wish people could see what if it happens at a larger scale too? Like, I'm really interested when a story breaks about whatever in the world, when all the media gets on that one story, I'm like, sigh out. Like, we're being played. Like, why that and not this? You know, why is that important and not this? Before the episode. Sorry. I think that this, and as I said at the very beginning, like, I think what happened with you guys is the most amazing case study ever.

[00:51:52] And I know it's very painful and I'm really sorry about that. I know I tried to drag a bunch of answers out of you, but it's such an amazing case study of trying to go in to sit, to explain something and talk about something. And then the response is people playing out the exact pattern of what's in your book. That is mind-blowing to me as a case study. Mind-blowing. Literally what happened is everything in the book you warned everybody against. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:21] And do you think it would be fair to say that if the comments from this episode get into what is right or wrong about what is happening in the Middle East, we are not going to respond because that's not what this episode is about. I wouldn't. I would inspire people to try to look at the pattern of things. There are terrible things happening all over the world. All the time. All the time.

[00:52:46] If I need to vilify you, my friends, because you don't want to say what I want you to say about child trafficking, then what do I stand for? And you guys said, well, you stand for being right. Okay, well, that's a shitty stance. So I would just encourage people in the comments to consider in this desire to have a fight about things, what are your principles? Like, what are you actually fighting for?

[00:53:13] You know, I know that there's a story that you're going to say you're fighting for, but what are you actually fighting for? Because why aren't you fighting for this thing? Why aren't you fighting for that thing? Why aren't you fighting for this thing? Do you believe that Nippy and Sarah should be attacked and shamed? Should they be tarred and feathered and walk down the main street, you know, tarred and feathered? What should happen to them for not using your words and not believing in the construct you have in your mind?

[00:53:43] What should happen to them? Because if you allow yourself to go to the full extent of your passion and rage, you might find yourself thinking some very, very dark thoughts. And if you think some very dark thoughts about what you think should happen to Nippy and Sarah, my friend, you have fucking lost your humanity and you need to take a deep fucking look in the mirror and go touch some grass. Or smoke? Yes. Amen. Amen. And for the record, my stance is I'm pro-peace. That's what I want.

[00:54:12] That's why this whole thing was so hard. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're welcome. If you're finding this podcast helpful, please do us a solid.

[00:54:41] Drop a rating, leave a review and hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling extra culty, join our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for early ad free episodes and all the bonus content. Even better, pass this episode along to someone who might need it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit suggestible or maybe they just can't resist a good cult story. Oh, if you want the full download of everything we've learned over eight seasons, grab our new book, A Little Bit Culty.

[00:55:10] It's out now on Amazon, Audible and anywhere you can get books. By the way, we narrated the Audible. It's super fun. Your local bookstore or library can order it too. Share the love and spread the culty wisdom. Thanks for listening and catch you next time on season nine. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy and our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsmore.

[00:55:38] Writing and admin by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Skrasinski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. Have you left a cult or are you trying to help someone who has?

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