Dancing for the Devil: Andrea Marks on the 7M TikTok Cult

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[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Music

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You might even already be in a cult.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Oops, you better keep listening to find out.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Music

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome back to ALBC everybody.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a very special person to thank for this episode.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: As you know, we are constantly telling you about all the fun things happening on Patreon, which is really how we keep this podcast going.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And someone reached out to us and said, you know, I'm not really a Patreon person, which is fair.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I get that.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But they wanted to support the podcast and they ended up donating through our website and basically donated enough money, 500 bucks, to produce an episode.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So this episode is dedicated to our new friend, Joe Metz.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Joe Metz, this is your episode.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Your thumbprints are on it.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And we also sent you a little care package with a book and a hat and all the fun things you would have gotten had you been in the Patreon inner circle.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But we feel like you earned it and we would give you a sash if we could, but we burned those.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for the support and an episode I think is good enough for everything.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The pseudo producer credit.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a very important episode.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We've been-

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: It is.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: People have been sliding into our DMs and messaging us about this particular alleged cult since-

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_04]: The documentary.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, even before that, since there was a live stream from a concerned family member.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Guess what it is?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If you are a cult nerd like we are, you will know that we are finally talking about the 7M TikTok cult.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So you've been asking for this episode on this cult for a long time.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And while internet sleuths can watch these TikTokers in real time, members and ex-members have been reluctant to speak out about their experiences due to ongoing litigation, among other things, like shame.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Since we don't have an actual survival whistleblower yet, we have the next best thing.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_06]: A journalist who has actually written on Robert Shin and the TikTok cult, Andrea Marks.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: She's an investigative journalist, one of the first to uncover the TikTok cult.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Her work can be found in The Atlantic and the New York Times.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: She's freelance now and we're speaking to her today about some of the incredible reporting she did for Rolling Stone that broke the story.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_06]: You might recognize Andrea from the Netflix documentary Dancing for the Devil.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_06]: That one's about Robert Shin, who started a management company for TikTok dancers.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_06]: That and his management company 7M Films sound harmless enough, but it is culty.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: People have been worried about the TikTokers for years.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Shin allegedly separates the dancers slowly over time, sound familiar, from their families, encouraging them to live on his compound and produce social media content.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: He's been accused of financial abuse and sexual abuse.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Some say he uses religion to manipulate his clients.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_06]: All of this is alleged, by the way.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And this isn't his first rodeo. In the 90s, Shin founded the church Shekinah.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It's still in operation and has been sued for culty practices.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Former members have accused Shin of intimidation, coercing money from them and making them work without pay.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: There's also been allegations of sexual assault, so trigger warning.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Andrea has been covering this topic for a while.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_06]: She's here to tell us about how Shin uses religion to abuse his clients and how a cult centered on social media can still isolate its members.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll also get into his sketchy business practices and lawsuits.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So here it is. Enjoy our convo with Andrea Marks.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, Andrea to Little Bit Culty.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We're really excited because, as you know, a lot of people in this group aren't willing to speak out.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And we've been looking for a survivor or somebody who's an ex-member wanting to talk to us.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But it seems like everybody has kind of run for the hills since this has been exposed.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And you were the first to talk about it.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so. I think Rolling Stone broke the story in the mainstream media.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was the one who wrote that piece in 2022.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing. And how did it come to your attention?

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Why are we here today?

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It was the Wilking family going live on Instagram.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That was in February 2022, when the family of Miranda Wilking, who had actually married and become Miranda Derrick,

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: went live on Instagram saying that their daughter, slash sister, because it was her mom, dad and sister, Melanie,

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: was in a religious group that was preventing her from being in touch with them.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They said that pretty plainly, and that it had been about a year since they'd heard from her.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So that really caught our attention.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. I don't know if you know this, Nippy, but that's when it came to my attention too,

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: because I guess many followers of hers who know what we do sent us that livestream.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And we watched it. She reached out to her and said, you know, if I can help in any way,

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: if you need help, resources or support, please let me know.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So we DM'd a little bit. But after that...

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I wish they had taken our help.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like we could have.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It could have gone differently, maybe.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Did she answer you?

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah, she answered.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And I sent our resource page and recommended a couple of experts that I thought might be able to help reach her sister.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sorry. It was Melanie who answered you. I thought you reached out to Miranda.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, wait, she spoke to you?

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: No, sorry.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Not the sister who's in the group.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no. Yeah. We'll go back to the beginning.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So what have you uncovered about this? Do we call it a church? Do we call it a management company? Is it all of the above?

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, a question to be clear was the first thing that was alarming to you was the separation from the family.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And that was your red flag moment.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That was my way in. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, someone with a large social media presence and then their family drawing a lot of attention on social media saying this influencer essentially...

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Not essentially. She and her sister were, you know, well-known TikTok dance influencers.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That one of the two sisters was in a group of some sort and not communicating with her family.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty alarming.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Normally we go through the survivor's eyes. Let's take us through the journalist's eyes.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: How did you uncover this and how did you put the pieces together?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. This, you know, started with good old fashioned social media snooping because they're influencers.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: They have a public profile and everyone in this group has a public profile.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It turns out I started by trying to figure out what group Miranda's family was referring to because they are, you know,

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think intentionally oblique in that initial 2022 live video.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They say she's in a group. She's not talking to us and they don't name names.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So I went to try to figure out what the group was fairly obviously, you know, on her social media bio.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It said that she was represented by 7M Films.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I started looking at who she's in videos with since she's not making videos with her sister anymore.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We could give more context on that if necessary.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: She used to make a ton of videos with her sister.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think she had 2 million TikTok followers as the Wilking sisters.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And then that account had fallen off and this new account had emerged in late 2020 or early 21

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or a new image of the account had emerged where she's dancing with different people

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and she repeatedly appears with the same people in videos.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I started looking at all of those people and just creating a roster of everyone who had 7M Films

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: as the contact in their social media bios.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm searching mostly on Instagram now that I think about it just because that's where the live started.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of where I started branching off from.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But all the dancers who were affiliated with 7M Films had it right in their bios on TikTok as well.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're mostly on Instagram and TikTok.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I started by DMing all of them and none of them answered.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: None of them read my DMs at all.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was not a useful entry point.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I started reading comments and looking for people.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I know it was comments that led me to people that sounded like they were concerned about people.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure if it was directly to them.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there were people who would comment saying like my friends in that group.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'd hit them up and be like, who's your friend? Why are you concerned?

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Enough for you to have an impression that something's going on.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I know there were comments on the Wilkings video as well because once that went live saying we're concerned,

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: other people said I'm concerned too.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't heard from my friend.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously established that Miranda's husband was in the group as well

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and just started trying to find people who would speak to me basically from the same point of view as the Wilking family.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: People who are on the outside concerned about those who are on the inside.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That's largely what powered that first article.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That along with digging into the head of the group, Robert Shin.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Although, it's funny, trying to tell that story initially.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually did delve into Robert Shin's background,

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's been so much more that's come out about him since my reporting.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We were like, who is this guy? Has he been sued?

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were like, yes, he has.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: A former church member sued him in 2009 unsuccessfully,

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: but alleged all sorts of controlling behavior called tactics that he'd extorted.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to use that word.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That he had conned her out of millions of dollars.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was maybe $4 million.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So something didn't sit right about this guy.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed like he'd been accused of controlling behavior in the past.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: This is probably where I should note that this man runs a church as well as a management company.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Also runs Shekinah Church.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: In that early article, I went as far as to establish that it was the same man who owned both entities.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: When we went out for comment to 7M,

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they may have actually explicitly said there was no link between the two,

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: but they certainly didn't confirm that they were affiliated.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe they said that they were run totally separately.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, couldn't definitively assert that that wasn't true.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But it did seem suspicious that someone being accused of controlling behavior

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: was running both a church where someone had sued him for controlling behavior

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and was running a management company where a dancer's family was concerned

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that she was being controlled by a religious organization.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_06]: You're catching some through lines.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_06]: At this point, are you educated or did you experience coercive control

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_06]: before you started looking into this to understand it?

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And where were you in that timeline and did you know what you were looking at per se

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_06]: when these red flags started to show up?

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had done some other reporting on cults for Rolling Stone.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I've always been interested in cults.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think just how someone can gain control over a group of people,

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes a very large group of people, is just sort of disturbing

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and fascinating behavior.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I wound up sort of on the, not sort of,

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I wound up on the crime beat for Rolling Stone,

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: which at Rolling Stone includes cults and con artists

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and also straightforward crime reporting on national crime stories.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You'd also written about Alison Mack, if I recall.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I had. Yes, I had covered.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't deeply cover the NXIVM case, but I went to court for Alison Mack's sentencing

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and I covered her release.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I had a few times been sent out on these reporting assignments

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: looking at cult behavior.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to totally derail this conversation for just a second

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: because our listeners will hate me if I don't ask you,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: what was Alison Mack's sentencing like since we weren't there?

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I would, and I'm happy to check.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: There was one survivor whose testimony was particularly memorable.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the NXIVM survivors gave a victim impact statement

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and stood up and called her a monster, among other things.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I know who that is.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I respectfully disagree, but that's okay.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We're all entitled to our own opinions, which is such a great part

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: about not being a judge anymore. Exactly, isn't it?

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So, and it was a pretty impactful sentencing because one survivor spoke out

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: very vehemently against Alison Mack.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, if I recall correctly, Alison Mack also gave a statement

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and she was crying and was very remorseful for her part

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: in recruiting people to NXIVM and perpetuating Keith Ranieri's abuse.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was an intense scene to witness because there were these

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: conflicting viewpoints, both of which seemed valid.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure. I believe it was valid for that person.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's our personal opinion that, yeah, I think when people wake up

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: when Alison has appeared to be legitimate and authentic,

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't call that a monster anymore. You know what I mean?

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like for me, calling someone a monster is like painting their whole character

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a certain way, whereas we believe that... It's a little hyperbolic.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, people can be drawn into these things and indoctrinated

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: with coercive control and maybe do monster-type behavior,

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but I don't believe she is one. Anyway, I've finished derailing.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, where were we? We were talking about...

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Nipi had asked if you knew what you were looking at in terms of

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: coercive control and cults, and now you're putting all these things together.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You're researching.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_06]: She has a filter for what she's looking at.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I mean, for us as well, when it broke and recently

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: when the documentary came out, people would ask us,

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was just... It seems classic.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's a great textbook.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_06]: A little nuanced, actually.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And even down to the responses of the people who were being accused

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: of being in a cult, which is exactly what we said when we were in a cult

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: when people were questioning us. I'd say,

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Look, I'm happy. I have a new home. I'm married.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I have everything I want. What's the bad thing?

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is what we were trained to say.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And that seems to be pretty consistent with the people still in it.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember...

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Were you able to talk to anyone who was still involved?

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: At the time, no one who was involved, but they were putting out videos

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: responding to the Wilkings Live, so a couple members, other dancers,

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: were joking about, like, Oh, they say we're in a cult, but we're really happy.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And Miranda put out some pretty memorable videos.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember she was doing something Monday.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she was reading Bible verses on a live, I think.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was saying... She was responding to users reaching out,

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and she was saying in a very calm, quiet voice,

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not in a cult. I'm in a house, but I'm not in a cult.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think she might have said something else,

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like, I'm in something else, but not a cult.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And just sort of this very gentle presentation in front of a camera

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that not surprisingly, there was just a social media frenzy around this.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In addition to me trying to get some reporting done on it,

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone was freaking out, because it's hard to ignore

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that sort of public access to what's going on.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's got amateur sleuth all over it.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to find out...

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's reality TV.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: People were like, Oh, someone might be holding a gun to her head,

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: which of course speaks exactly against what coercive control is.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all speculative, what was happening on a video like that.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But there were commenters saying,

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she must be being held against her will.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone might be pointing a gun at her.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, people who know about coercive control

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and the way high control groups work would say

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that's usually not how that works.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably not a gun, but that doesn't mean

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that she's not in an unsafe situation

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: or that she isn't being coerced in some other way,

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: which all points to why it's so hard

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to get people out of those situations,

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: why it's hard to prosecute cult leaders, et cetera.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_06]: The gun is metaphorical and hard to nail.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_06]: It's hard to identify.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, unless you're an expert or you've gone through it

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: or watched a million cult documentaries,

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hard to really understand how that metaphorical gun works

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and how the pressure is slowly introduced over time.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But one thing I hadn't fully wrapped my head around,

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and I see this with the TikTok cult

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and also with, I don't know if you followed Bethany Joy Lenz.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be doing an interview with her

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: about her time in One Tree Hill.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's recently written a memoir

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: about her time in a Bible study cult

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: called The Big House Family.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But her story is so similar in that

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in the moments where the people around you are being like,

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: um, is this a good idea?

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, are you sure?

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: When you're young, there's this element of like,

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: as you're individuating, I know what I'm doing.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an adult.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: How dare you question my intelligence,

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: which is sort of fair.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Which needs questioning.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But also needs questioning.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that I certainly did that.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And when I'm reading Joy's book,

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: people around her are saying, is that a good idea?

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you sure you want to give that much money

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: from your earnings to this church

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to buy a used motel for their congregation?

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, are you sure about that?

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: She's like, of course.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know what's best.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But really, when you're in your early 20s,

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: you kind of don't, unfortunately,

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: unless you're, I don't know,

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: been out on your own for a while.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you may be intelligent,

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but you're not worldly yet.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Or I don't know.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think?

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you can be intelligent

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_06]: and make bad decisions on a false premise.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Right?

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, that goes on all the time.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I also remember talking to a cult expert

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time when I was reporting this story

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to ask about like convincing,

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and I know you know all about this,

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: convincing someone to leave

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and telling them that they're wrong,

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that that's all, very insidiously,

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that that's all stuff they've already been versed on

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: how to handle.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if someone asks you this,

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: then you know they're wrong

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to tell them that.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_06]: When I was watching the documentary

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_06]: about the TikTok thing,

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_06]: the one thing I wish I could have been there

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_06]: with the parents has been like,

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_06]: just give them pause.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, this is kind of a waiting game.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And if you give them anything to resist,

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_06]: they're going to do it.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And I felt like their move was a little aggressive.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_06]: No shade.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't, I can't.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I'd do if my kids were here.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's the whole thing.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you never know how you're going to handle a situation

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_06]: until you're in it.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And if someone was doing that with my kid,

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't say I wouldn't be at the door

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_06]: with a baseball bat the next day.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you know what I mean?

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's not a criticism.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I certainly do that.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_06]: But I just know that the results of that

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_06]: normally don't go well

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and delays any sort of awareness

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_06]: that they're going to have potentially.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so scary for people to realize

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can physically go to the place

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and that you still can't, quote unquote,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: get them out.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, surely you can go pick them up,

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: tell them they have to go.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not the first example

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that I've heard since doing this reporting.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard from other people

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that my loved one is trapped in this group

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and they'll go to the group

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: where they think that they could be located.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean that you can separate them

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: from the beliefs they've been indoctrinated into.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very scary.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: This podcast certainly would not be happening

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you with us?

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: slash a littlebitculty for bonus episodes,

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: ad-free and exclusive content,

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and the occasional Zoom

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: with fan favorites from our past episodes,

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Q&As, and all sorts of goodies.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's fun over there, people.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Reality check.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: School is back in session

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'd be lying if I said

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't feeling the pressure.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: From new pickup schedules

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: to football season for both kids picking up again,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: keeping track of everyone's location and schedule

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is a full-time job.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_06]: But you know what's keeping me calm in the chaos?

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Life 360.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Life 360 is a family connection and safety app

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that lets you track your family members' locations

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: in real time.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It helps me coordinate, communicate,

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and create peace of mind.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Forget the constant where are you

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_06]: and did you make it text.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_06]: With Life 360,

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_06]: our family can share our locations seamlessly.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: When I flew back from New York the other day,

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Nippy used Life 360's landing notification

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: which sent him an alert

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the second my plane touched down.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I had to know.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I also love linking it with Tile

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to keep track of my car keys.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: No more searching.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I just ring it from the app

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and find them within seconds.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Life 360 gives me peace of mind

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_06]: in the palm of my hand

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_06]: knowing where everyone in my family is

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_06]: at any given time.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, please.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything to help me decrease that mental load.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess we both have a mental load, babe.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just me.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Just realizing that, aren't you?

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: There are even more tools I can't wait to explore

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: from location safety and emergency assistance

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: to driving and digital safety.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I know Life 360's got our back.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Coordinate the chaos of back-to-school season

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_06]: with Life 360.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Visit life360.com or download the app today

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[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_06]: plus 15% off all Tiles.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_06]: That's life360.com, code CULTY.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, everybody, autumn has arrived.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Taking my closet from summer to fall

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: has always been a struggle

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but honestly sometimes I just hate all my clothes.

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[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's still pretty hot here in Atlanta

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[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Now let's get back to a little bit culti, shall we?

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Totally.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And the more that you're sort of amped up

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: is just further proof

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is often like part of the indoctrination

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: from the leadership.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You see your so-called family

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't have control over you anymore

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're scared

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're trying to get you back

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but you're an adult.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You can live your own life

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and you don't have to, you know.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So like they've been trained

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to see their parents as doing things that are bad

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: when they're actually just showing them

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that they love them

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and trying to get them out of a bad situation.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they play into the cult leader's hands.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Right into it.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So dark.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, so you did have this experience already.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you see, I couldn't help

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but kind of chuckle to myself

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: although it's not really funny

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but just this classic gaslighting

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: of the lawyer's response to...

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that we were doing it for clicks and clout

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and that she's a successful business person.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, thank you.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you explain how that's classic gaslighting?

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they said,

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: when we reached out to 7N

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: before we published the first article

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: they said,

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Miranda Derrick is a successful businesswoman

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and a loving wife and daughter

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who cares very much about her family.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It is pathetic and contemptible

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to try to turn her private family matters

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: into a tawdry public scandal

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: for clicks and clout.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, yeah.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are they trying to gaslight with that?

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're gaslighting

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the people they're accusing of

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: turning their private scandal

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: into something public for clicks and clout.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess that was me and Rolling Stone then.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they were trying to intimidate us.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Well you, yeah, you and the family

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: are just creating a big scandal

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: for clicks and clout.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Well it turns you guys into the perpetrators.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it makes it your issue.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm rubbing your glue.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You say we're doing that,

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're taking advantage of them

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to build this social media business

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think it's you all

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: who are turning a private family matter

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: into a whatever.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And they leverage a righteous institute

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_06]: like family, right?

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_06]: So they'll say, oh the family nucleus

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_06]: is something you're attacking

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_06]: with your reporting, right?

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_06]: So they turn it to a moral high ground.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a whole gymnastics that they do.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_06]: It's performance.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_06]: It is a performance art.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_06]: In a lot of ways.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it happened also with us

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: before Keith was put into jail

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and I had been public about

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the fact that I was branded.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually it was Allison Mack apparently

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and others who said

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that I was just being overdramatic

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and that I was an out of work actress

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for attention.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Well you got it.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I got it.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're a great actress.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm a really good actor.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Faked being branded,

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_06]: faked the whole...

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's just classic Darvo.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Divert, yeah, deflect, attack.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Reverse.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what Robert Shin did

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: in his lawsuit

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: when he's on the offensive

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: against his followers.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the sort of just like brutal,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like that's so mean

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: what you just described.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, just an out of work,

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you know,

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just an out of work actress

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and he called people like spurned lovers

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because I spurned her.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why she's so hostile to me.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like really, really...

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Classic.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Well that's a good segue to our question.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_06]: In a lot of these cases

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_06]: the perpetrators,

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_06]: the real perpetrators

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_06]: have managed to somehow use

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_06]: the institutes of accountability

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_06]: in their favor

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and actually protect themselves

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_06]: as abusers.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_06]: How did you find that he was effective

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_06]: in being protected?

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_06]: How did he use the legal system?

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_06]: How did he do all those things

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_06]: in order to protect himself

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and maintain the victim status?

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean,

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to speak carefully

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: because court cases are ongoing.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: There are allegations,

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: there are rebuttals

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to those allegations,

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: there are counter suits.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a big messy lawsuit right now

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: with dozens of parties involved.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So yet to use like

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: the language of what we can prove

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because the fact is like

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really hard to prove

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: someone is in a cult.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Right now there are

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the claims of the family members

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and then there are

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Robert Shin's claims

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and Robert Shin,

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure we've totally talked about that.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He founded Shekinah Church in the 90s.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He claims it's, you know,

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: an institution

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: like many churches,

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, would say

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like we're here to do good.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We're sharing the gospel

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Bible with people

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and we happen to have many

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: for-profit businesses

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: where we employ

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: our congregants

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and we help them

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: earn money

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and have fulfilling lives.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But then when people say

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: as they have in

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: a couple different lawsuits,

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: there was one

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: an unsuccessful lawsuit from 2009

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and then an ongoing lawsuit in 2022

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: are the two main ones

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that I know about.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I would believe there are others

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but those are the two

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that I've reported on.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: People have claimed

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that he's, to put it briefly,

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that he's controlling their lives,

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that he's economically controlling them,

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: physically controlling them,

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: affecting their health,

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think blocking people

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: from getting COVID vaccines,

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: forcing them to work without pay

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for his companies.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Then he will go on the offensive

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: really, oftentimes suing them.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, and it's an extremely

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: complex legal mess.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he actually sued people first

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in 2022 or like in the most recent lawsuit

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: started because he sued

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: some former church members

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: saying that they were conspiring

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to defame him.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Like he got out ahead of it

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: saying like,

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: they're calling me bad

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're the ones

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: who are hostile towards me

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was just trying to help

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and one of them was spurned

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: by Robert Chin.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Wanted to be his lover

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and he rejected her

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's sort of painting the picture

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: of the jilted woman

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and yeah, again,

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: just sort of the like,

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I keep wanting to say

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: like I know you are but what am I?

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the like, no, no,

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: all the things that you say I'm doing,

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you're doing,

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: like you're trying to,

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he accused them of extortion.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're trying to take my money.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: They're hostile to me.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to defame me.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_06]: It's all consistent.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that sounds about right.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There were lawsuits against Keith too

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: when we were still involved

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and he said the same thing,

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: jilted lovers.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Preemptive too.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and you know,

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: naturally she was just in love with me

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know,

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: since I'm celibate,

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't attend to her needs.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Going back for a second

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because as you probably know

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: we normally follow a survivor

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in and out of a group

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and one of the things

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that we always try to cover is

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, what was the hook?

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like why do people join this group

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: when you look at it now

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: through the eyes of something like

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Dance Before the Devil on Netflix?

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually thought they did a great job

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: about painting that hook.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they did do a good job.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I could really imagine,

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a dancer,

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: but I am an actor,

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: being in Hollywood at that time,

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: especially if I didn't have family there

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and being offered a community

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and a home and roommates

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and all of those things.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I am a community junkie especially

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: so I could totally see the draw

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's also very glamorous.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you know,

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: they tick a lot of the boxes

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: in terms of what they provide

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: so I can see why it's hard for people

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: who are in to see the negative

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: especially if they've also bought in

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to the fact that they have

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: a connection with God

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: right on top of that.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Despite what 7M has claimed,

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: according to the dancers

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: who have since left,

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the church and the management company

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: were quite intertwined

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that anyone involved

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: in the management company

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: was also going to church surfaces

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: led by Robert Shin,

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the head of their management company.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, to what you said

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: about the hook,

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean yes,

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: in this case they were,

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I would be inclined to say,

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: preying on the vulnerabilities

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: of people in the performing arts world

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a notoriously difficult world

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to break into

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and to make a living at

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: so they were offering stability

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and a paycheck

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and creative freedom

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to these dancers.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: On the documentary,

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: some dancers said things like

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: we just had to dance,

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the dream

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but they found a way to,

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: according to the dancers' claims,

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: take advantage of that

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: very specific dream.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They just wanted space

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to pursue their creative art form

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: which was dance

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and this offered them that

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: with a side of religion

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so they did have to find people

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: who were open to that

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and they did find

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: some spiritual people

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: who were eager to

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: study the Bible

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: alongside pursuing their dance

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and man, yeah,

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where it stops making sense

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because somehow then

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: they wound up totally in control

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of their finances

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and their time

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and where they lived

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and who they spent time with

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think they were taking

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: at least 30% of their paychecks

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, maybe more,

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: There would be special donations,

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know,

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: we could get into the finances

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: separately but yeah,

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the hook of the career

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in the performing arts

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: would be very compelling.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and at a certain point

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: with that plus the God element

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and then with understanding

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the sunk cost fallacy,

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: they've invested so much, right?

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They've probably burnt

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of bridges

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like with Miranda,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: not only is her husband

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: in the cult

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: who got there first, right?

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Now she's publicly

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of staked her claim

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to be much harder

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to go, oh shit,

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I made a mistake.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That takes a lot of courage

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know,

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it took us a long time

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to see what we eventually saw

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: so I hope that she can,

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if she will.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I pray for her

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: because I don't do that

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but I know that this is

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be a tough road

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: for her at this point

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: especially if she's cut off.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Once you burn all the bridges

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to the outside world

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: as we used to call it

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Your pride pill gets bigger.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The pride pill gets bigger

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and you double down

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and you become more insular

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you're not getting

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: information from the outside.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious if it resonates

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: with you, a cult expert

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: told me that leaving a cult

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: can be like having a shelf

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that little bits of info

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: get put on as something

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: catches your eyes off

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: or a red flag

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and you put it on the shelf

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and it needs to just

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: be enough weight

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that the shelf collapses.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_06]: This is Sarah's favorite monologue.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_06]: She loves the shelf story.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I do love the shelf metaphor

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's true.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We all did it.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: We put things on the shelf

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and then one day

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the shelf breaks

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and you never know

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: what that thing might be

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: for that person.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It may even be

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that someone reaches out

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to Miranda who

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: she thought she burned a bridge with

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and says, you know,

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I love you always

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's what we encouraged.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't do an episode

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: until now

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but we did do interviews

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: on other people's podcasts

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: who wanted our, you know,

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: lived experience.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not experts

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: experts with lived experience.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: What was our perspective?

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just said,

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: don't like leave her alone.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Send her love.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Send her lifelines.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Stop judging her.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Stop telling her

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: she's in a cult.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Just let her feel

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that she can come out

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and say face.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Something that I wonder

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: about a lot

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: is how leaders

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of these alleged cults

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: manage to keep people

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: isolated from outside information

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in a world

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where we are so hyperconnected

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to information all the time.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it's different

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: for us than it is now

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: because when we were in,

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: social media wasn't as prominent

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: at least at the beginning.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely by the end

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: because we were there

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: from 2005, 2017.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think depending on the group,

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: leaders are like literally

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: isolating people

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: like on a compound

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: without access,

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like without phones or whatever.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But now with something like this,

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously they're deep

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in their phones.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: of a mind game then

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and at least with Keith,

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: he would say things to us

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: like don't read the article

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: because it will change your,

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: they called it thought object of me

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's violent.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were an anti-violent organization

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: so they had all these ways of,

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: we would feel bad

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: if we went against that

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: because we wouldn't want

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to change our thought of Keith.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's ways that he had built in

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to protect him from us

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: reading anything negative

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: because that would be dishonorable

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and we didn't want to be,

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: we were trained to be honorable.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I missing anything?

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_06]: The distinction is

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_06]: we were trained more to dismiss it

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_06]: than not look at it

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_06]: if that makes sense.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_06]: So you're not going to control

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_06]: all the information

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_06]: but when you get information

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_06]: that's counter,

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean personally

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_06]: to like what you think you're doing,

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_06]: your self-image,

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_06]: those things aren't something

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_06]: that we can traditionally,

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_06]: we as humans go,

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_06]: oh yeah,

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not who I think I am

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and those are hard for us to take in.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_06]: It takes a certain kind of person

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_06]: until,

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_06]: and so I think

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_06]: what he's done successfully

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_06]: is basically help them predict

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_06]: what they're going to see

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and then train them

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_06]: to dismiss what they're going to see.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so when they see it

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they go, oh.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: He told us this.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like I remember Keith saying,

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: of course the media

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to come after him

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: because he's teaching ethics

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's trying to change

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the whole trajectory of humanity

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: which is there's,

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: there's bad people out there

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's trying to shine light on that.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So of course the bad people

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02]: are going to push back on him

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and what's the worst thing

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: they could do?

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They could call him a pedophile.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That would be the worst thing.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So when they called him a pedophile

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we were like,

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: there you go.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the world pushing back

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: on Keith being a humanitarian.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He got ahead of it too.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's wild how seamless

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the control can be

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: from a compound in Guyana,

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you know,

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_01]: when you think of Jonestown

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're like,

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: oh well of course

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: he took everyone away

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: from everyone they knew

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and then it still works

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in the social media world.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's mind control.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a different type of isolation.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the isolation

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that he's putting these people through

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is partly through

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: them feeling superior.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an emotional isolation.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we are the ones

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: who have this path to God.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I heard him,

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I heard him in those videos

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: in the documentary.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I highly recommend everyone

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: watch the documentary

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but like you can hear

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: how he's rallying this group

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: through his words

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and through having them feel like

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: they're the only ones

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: is the only way.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He's got the path,

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: he's got the direct line to God

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and that can be intoxicating.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_06]: He's also radicalized them

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_06]: to a certain extent

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and nobody is going to admit

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_06]: that they've been radicalized.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Like it's not something they go.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's low key radicalization overtly

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and probably closer to him

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_06]: it's more overt I would guess

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and then once you're radicalized

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's the precursor

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_06]: to making some really bad decisions

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_06]: or waking up I think.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of radicalized,

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: can you tell us about

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: what 7M comes from?

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Like what did you learn

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: about the 7 Mountain mandate?

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the questions

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I was exploring

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in my early reporting

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: was why it was called 7M

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and my just searching around

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: suggested that 7M

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but more commonly 7MM

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: is a shorthand for

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: 7 Mountains Mandate.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: 7 Mountains Mandate

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: refers to seven spheres of influence

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: which include media, business

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and arts and entertainment.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know I spoke to an expert

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: on conservative religious movements

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time who told me

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that there was this push

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: by conservative Christians

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to exert more influence

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: over you know movies and music

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and essentially

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the entertainment industry.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of a theory

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that Rolling Stone gently floated.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We just sort of said

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: could be this

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and it certainly seems in line

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: with the behavior of the group

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know we're not sure for sure.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think Robert Shinn

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: has acknowledged that history

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: but I could be wrong.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds pretty

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_06]: That's fertile ground over there

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_06]: for those kinds of ideas.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Whether it's a mandate or not

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: he's certainly attempting to do it.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think he believes it

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_06]: or do you think he's just

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the question

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: for most leaders isn't it?

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I and I'm curious for your take as well

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: since you've had a closer experience.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I sort of feel like

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: they would need to

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: almost in every case.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't think that Keith did.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think there was a time

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: when he did

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was slowly corrupted by power?

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Nope.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I see that with different people

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: like there's allegations

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: on somebody like Baron Baptiste

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the yoga teacher.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It seemed like he really believed it

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but then over time

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it kind of got to his head.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And materialism gets to you.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Materialism and you know

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: cute women in yoga clothes

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: throwing themselves at you

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you know that kind of thing.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Keith planned this out.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I get the same

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: just intuitively

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it feels the same with Shinn.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a con man

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in my alleged opinion.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He seems like a con man doing

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Forgive my formal journalism language

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but I sweat to not add alleged

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: because yeah you know.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: For more background

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: on what brought us here

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02]: check out my page-turning memoir.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's called Scarred

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the true story of how I escaped NXIVM

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the cult that bound my life.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's available on Amazon, Audible

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and at most bookstores.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to see that story

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in streaming form

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you can watch both seasons

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: of The Vow on HBO.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Reality check.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: School is back in session

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'd be lying

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if I said I wasn't

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling the pressure.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: From new pickup schedules

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: to football season

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: for both kids picking up again

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: keeping track of everyone's location

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and schedule

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: is a full-time job.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_06]: But you know what's keeping me calm

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_06]: in the chaos?

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Life 360.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Life 360 is a family connection

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and safety app

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that lets you track

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: your family members locations

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: in real time.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It helps me coordinate

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: communicate

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and create peace of mind.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Forget the constant

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_06]: where are you

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and did you make it text?

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_06]: With Life 360

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_06]: our family can share

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_06]: our locations seamlessly.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: When I flew back

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: from New York the other day

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Nippy used Life 360's

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: landing notification

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_02]: which sent him an alert

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the second my plane touched down.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I had to know.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I also love linking it with Tile

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to keep track of my car keys

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: no more searching.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I just ring it from the app

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and find them within seconds.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Life 360 gives me peace of mind

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_06]: in the palm of my hand

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_06]: knowing where everyone

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_06]: in my family is

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_06]: at any given time.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, please.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything to help me

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_06]: decrease that mental load.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess we both have

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a mental load, babe.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just me.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Just realizing that, aren't you?

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: There are even more tools

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait to explore

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: from location safety

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and emergency assistance

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to driving and digital safety.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I know Life 360's got our back.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Coordinate the chaos

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_06]: of back-to-school season

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_06]: with Life 360.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Visit life360.com

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_06]: or download the app today

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_06]: and use code CULTY

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[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_06]: plus 15% off all Tiles.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's life360.com

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_06]: code CULTY.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_06]: This podcast is brought to you

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[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_06]: slash culti.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Break time's over people.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get back to this episode

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_06]: of A Little Bit Culti.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a good one.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean,

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_06]: how could you be that insensitive

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_06]: to the lives that you're hurting

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and then have an answer

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_06]: for every single accusation

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and not get to the point

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_06]: where you're going,

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_06]: how come I have so many accusations

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_06]: of the same thing?

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_06]: So to me,

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_06]: the person's doing this intentionally

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and they're just trying

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_06]: to get away with it.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And they think they're smarter

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_06]: and there's a lot of ego

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_06]: that comes into it

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's where I kind of tap out

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_06]: with my expertise

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_06]: but I just think if you're at a point

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_06]: where you're hurting one person,

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_06]: if one person came to me

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_06]: or you with those accusations,

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I'd pause.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I'd pause my life.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Right?

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_06]: These people just press on.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a completely fascinating question

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and such a hard and sad question too.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have much to any sympathy

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: for cult leaders

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's like,

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: what if they're a narcissist?

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Then what amount of sympathy

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: do we have for narcissism

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: as a personality disorder

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: versus the way you behave?

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So many times it boils down

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to questions of like,

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: what is evil versus what is illness?

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_06]: One of the things

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_06]: that gives them their strength

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_06]: is that people like us

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_06]: give them the benefit of the doubt.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It's very hard to imagine

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_06]: that people would use their expertise,

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_06]: talents, intelligence

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_06]: to go and do that.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what allows them

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_06]: to get away with it.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_06]: They get to do it in plain sight

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_06]: because most people go,

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_06]: they couldn't be doing that.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And they get protected by religious laws.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like as you know,

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it's very difficult

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to sue cult leaders in general

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but especially when they're hiding

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: behind religion.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the protection of the First Amendment.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We're allowed to believe whatever we want,

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: espouse whatever ideologies we want,

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: share those ideologies,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: worship whoever we want.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are people ready

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to take advantage of that clearly.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The government's not allowed,

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the government, you know,

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, our constitution says

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the government isn't allowed

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to like weigh in on the God question

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because then we wouldn't have

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: separation of church and state

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'd have the government

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: deciding which religion was right,

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: which religion was wrong.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Also the government, yeah,

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_06]: that's a slippery slope for the government

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_06]: because now they're in a position

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_06]: of proving a crime that's, you know,

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_06]: conflicting with freedom of speech

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and stuff like that.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's a hard thing to prove defenitively

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_06]: and our court systems say

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_06]: that you have to prove this

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's a good thing, right?

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_06]: And so there's gonna be a scenario

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_06]: at some point where egregious abuse

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_06]: is gonna be hard to prove.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_06]: That's how clever they are.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_06]: They know that.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Like so it's very like,

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_06]: it's complex to the people doing

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_06]: the perpetrating,

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_06]: to the people being abused.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_06]: They just don't see it like that.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's confusing and disturbing

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but I guess in a way makes sense

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that adults are allowed

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to make decisions

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: against their best interests.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like how can you not see

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that it doesn't make any sense

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to like give your life savings

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and liquidate all your assets

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to this so-called church

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that's run by a guy

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: who says that he's like a prophet.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sort of spinning out

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: into theoretical, you know,

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: an amalgamation of different groups.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not exactly what Robert Chin says

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but and they're like,

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: well, you know, I don't know.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you're adults

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and we don't say

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: what religion is right and wrong

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's just like so can anyone,

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: asking a trite question I'm sure,

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: but like so anyone can just say

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I start a religion

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to give all your money to me

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01]: because I know God personally

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and like that's chill.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_06]: It's that blatant.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's honestly textbook.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It's textbook over and over and over again

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and we hear about it in the big groups.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we hear like Scientology

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and whatnot like we hear about it

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's in the Zeitgeist

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and we know about it

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but like there's tons of little ones

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that aren't as egregious

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe aren't like, you know,

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: branding people or sex trafficking

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're still extorting

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of money from people

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: like the one I mentioned

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: from Bethany Joy Lenz's book

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: which we'll be covering

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: in season seven of our podcast coming soon.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: A little plug, plug, plug

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: but no one had heard of it

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: because they were like

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: dozens, just a few dozen people

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're still extorting

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and claiming to know best.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been thinking a lot about that

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01]: because since I've done some reporting

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and then even more so

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: when the Netflix special came out

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: or the Netflix docuseries came out

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been getting DMs from people

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: saying that their loved ones are in groups

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know, I'm not an advocate

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: or an activist in this space.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a journalist in this space

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_01]: which unfortunately means

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_01]: it's me and editors I pitch to

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: are deciding like what cult story

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: is worth telling in the press

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course these are all enormous deals

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to the people going through them

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not fair that you know

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that there needs to be something grabby

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like atrocities, like branding people

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: or a celebrity involved

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: or you know, terrible physical abuse

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that could be criminal

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that could lead to criminal charges

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to get media attention

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's been very scary to me

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to learn how many people

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: are having an experience

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01]: like the Wilking family

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: where they say I have not heard

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: from my loved one in years

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: happening all the time.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Same here and we get so many

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you're probably overwhelmed

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: but there are some big ones

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that we feel like we can't cover

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: because we're not journalists

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_02]: so we'll send them your way.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it's not to say

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not looking into these

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I have a couple people

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: who I'm speaking to

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and just trying to figure out

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, what if anything

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I can do with them

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and yeah, whether or not

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I can expose those abuses of power

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, education is important

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_06]: that's kind of what I think

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_06]: our podcast attempts to do

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_06]: because I think once you hear cult

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_06]: people kind of shut down

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_06]: and go that wouldn't be for me

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_06]: but if it's abuses of power

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_06]: or if it's coercion

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_06]: those words I think

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_06]: can land differently with people

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_06]: that are having an aversion

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_06]: to the word cult

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and then having the capacity

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_06]: to put language to it

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and wisdom to it

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_06]: so people can go

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_06]: oh wow, I know someone

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_06]: or God, I almost fell for

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_06]: something like that

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I think is the way to do this

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_06]: that the government has to come in

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_06]: and make new laws

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_06]: so they can point to education.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is totally

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish if I could have Miranda's ear

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't even use the word cult

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I would just say like

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02]: is this a healthy environment for you?

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you okay with giving

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_02]: this much money to the church?

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know where it goes?

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: What's he spending it on?

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you could make your own decisions?

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: What if Robert doesn't have

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: a direct line to God?

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever considered that?

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Or your best interests.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: What if he doesn't have

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: your best interests at heart?

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: These are the kind of questions

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: from a place of curiosity

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and non-judgment

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I always suggest

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: for people to ask

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: if friends do have somebody

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: wrapped up in one of these things

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but I know we're getting close on time

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and I wondered

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get to update

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You wrote this article a while ago

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: What's been happening since?

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: What's it been like

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: after the Netflix documentary

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: came out that you were in?

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: What's been happening since?

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Any news?

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the main thing has been

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_01]: my DMs exploding

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_01]: with people telling me

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: their personal cult stories

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it's that

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: they were in a group

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and got out

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're so glad

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to see that covered

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or that they know someone

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: who's in a group

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: like this

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and they hope I can help

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: which again is a challenge

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: as a journalist

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: because all we can do

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: is expose wrongdoing

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_01]: in journalism

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: if we can

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's certainly

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_01]: drawn my attention

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to some potential

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: news stories

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been following

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: unfortunately nothing

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I can really actively talk about

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: because they haven't panned out yet

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah, doing some reporting

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_01]: with some people

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: who have been

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in alleged cults

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe like a side story

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: tangentially related

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to 7M

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been doing some reporting

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: on an investigative podcast

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that I also can't really

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: plug yet

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think that

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the main impact

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: after the Netflix

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: docuseries

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: has been the number

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of people coming to me

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to talk about cults

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and that it's really drawn

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: my attention

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to how widespread

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: these lesser known

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: high control groups are

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_01]: whether you want to call them cults

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_01]: or a church

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: with bad intentions

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: they are really everywhere

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's very impactful

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to me

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: not just as a journalist

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but as a person

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: knowing that

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: mmhmm

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: good

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: has anybody left

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that we know of?

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_02]: 7M or Shekinah?

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think since

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the people who appeared

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: well, that's a good question

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't done any reporting

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to that effect

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to do some reporting

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_01]: because one of the dancers

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: their Instagram bio changed

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, I suspect

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: at least one of the other dancers

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: has left

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but I've reached out to him

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a couple times

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and he hasn't answered me

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: did you leave?

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_01]: do you want to talk about it?

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_01]: so we'll see about that

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but I know that the lawsuit

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is ongoing

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that the three dancers

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: are involved in

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_01]: where they filed a counterclaim

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: against Robert Shin

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_01]: alleging

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you know

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that 7M

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: is a cult

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: masquerading as a

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: religiously linked

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_01]: excuse me

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: like, I'm not saying it very

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the lawsuit is alleging

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: cult-like practices

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and controlling behavior

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: by Robert Shin

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: so that lawsuit's ongoing

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I know a lot can change

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it's currently scheduled

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: for trial in 2025

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: so I'm keeping an eye on that

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: as well

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_03]: wow

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that's probably why

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we've had such a hard time

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: finding someone to talk to us

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02]: we're glad that you talked to us

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you ever speak to somebody

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: who's left

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: who wants to

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: tell their personal journey

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: in and out of

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: 7M, Shekinah

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: extravaganza

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: please send them our way

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: of course

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_01]: my last question for you

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and again, forgive

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: if you've already

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: meditated on this

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_01]: a million times

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: no, it's fine

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but another thing

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like, that I think about a lot

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: when it comes to joining

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: these groups

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: so many people

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and it seemed like

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I watched you on the VOW

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it seemed like

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you were included in this

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_01]: so many people who

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: join what turn out

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to be cults

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: go in with these

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_01]: wonderful intentions

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: like, best of intentions

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, seeking

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: truth

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or seeking answers

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to life's big

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: questions

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: about existence

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: people who want

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to be better

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01]: have you

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: thought about

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and have you found

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: a way

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: maintain that openness

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to being a seeker

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to being open

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to questioning

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and looking for the

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: truth

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: in a safe way

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_01]: yes

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, we have a podcast

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_06]: this is it

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_06]: you're witnessing it

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: partly the podcast

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: also

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a TED talk

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll send you the link

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was really

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the goal of the TED talk

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: is to give people

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the tools

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to put in their tool belt

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_02]: like if you're human

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and you want to grow

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and you want to be better

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a very normal

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: human thing

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: how do you have a spiritual

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02]: path

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02]: or how do you

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: do any sort of

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_02]: professional development

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: not get sucked up

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_02]: into one of these things

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to have

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: the tools to seek safely

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: safe seeking

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that's underst

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: yes

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that's one of the things

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that I tell people

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and one of the things is

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: go ahead on those

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: on those journeys

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and take tools

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: from different people

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and put the tools

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in your tool belt

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: but don't make the tools

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: your life

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_02]: don't dedicate yourself

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to a particular

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02]: one path

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02]: or one man

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or one guru

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: or woman even

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: like it doesn't

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: nobody has all the answers

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_01]: wisely said

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and I definitely want to watch

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that TED talk

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll look forward eagerly

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to your book

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_01]: where can people find you

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I left Rolling Stone

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01]: to go freelance

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_01]: last year

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a freelance journalist

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that's in part why

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I have so many projects

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that are in process

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: but I

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I am on Twitter

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: under my name

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that's

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a huge social media

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: girly

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: not on Instagram

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_01]: no my Instagram's private

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just me

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know me and my husband

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and cats

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: so that one's not part of

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: my public profile

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: mostly just Twitter

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where I share

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that's fair

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the stories I intermittently

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: work on these days

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_02]: well I'll just say

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you Andrea

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: it's so nice to

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: to meet a journalist

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02]: who understands

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the complex nuances of

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_02]: of high control groups

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and coercive control

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: it's

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: teamwork here to

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to get

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_02]: this education

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and information out there

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_02]: keep it up

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and thanks for

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: doing that work

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you so much

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_02]: thanks for having me on

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_06]: thank you Andrea

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you like what you hear

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_02]: please do give us a rating

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a review

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and subscribe on iTunes

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: or wherever you listen

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: every little bit helps us

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: get this cult awareness

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: content out there

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: smash that subscribe button

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you know what to do

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02]: well I'm so glad we could

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: finally do this episode

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope to do another one

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: down the road

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: with a survivor

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but we are thrilled

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that Andrea could join us

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and that we could

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: finally talk about this cult

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that is actually unfolding

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: right in front of our eyes

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_06]: it's also

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_06]: fascinating for me

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_06]: to see how much

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_06]: we still need to

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_06]: educate people

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_06]: on what these

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_06]: precursors look like

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_06]: where it gets culty

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's so fascinating

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that a cult can be so

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: visible and viral

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: on TikTok

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and still enacting

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the same old

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_02]: coercive control playbook

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_04]: yep

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: you could still isolate

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and indoctrinate

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_02]: social media

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: even in this age of social media

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and one thing we didn't

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_02]: really get into

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_02]: that I meant to bring up

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: is you know

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember when we were

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_02]: watching the series

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I was thinking

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: why don't they get them

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_02]: on forced labor charges

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: or tax evasion

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_02]: there's gotta be

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_02]: some similar tactic

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that the prosecutors

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02]: could use

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to get them either

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: through RICO

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: or sort of the standard way

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: because as we all know

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_02]: coercive control

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is not illegal

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_02]: here yet

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_06]: well it's like we said

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_06]: you gotta be able

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_06]: to prove it

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_02]: yep

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_06]: right

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_06]: that's the incentive

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_06]: for lawyers too

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_06]: so there's incentives

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_06]: conflicting incentives

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and then you gotta have

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_06]: someone come out

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_06]: saying that it's actually

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_06]: going on

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_06]: there's that many of those

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and just like we said

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: with Landmark

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: if Robert Schimm

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and his group

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: wants to sue us

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: for saying they're

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit culty

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: or even a full-on cult

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: if you sue us

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: then you're just basically

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: saying yep we're a cult

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_02]: so I double dog dare

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you not to sue us

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think that's

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_06]: gonna deter them

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_06]: if they're really

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_06]: motivated to get a

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_06]: podcast in trouble for

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: just our opinions

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and we will definitely

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: follow the story

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_02]: as the legal proceedings

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: unfold

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and if you want to

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_06]: stay on top of it

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and follow Andrea's

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_06]: ongoing work covering cults

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_06]: you can stay up to date

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_06]: with her on twitter

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_06]: at Andrea

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_06]: that's two A's

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_06]: at the end of Andrea

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_06]: underscore marks

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_06]: A N D R E double A

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_06]: underscore M A R K S

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you haven't

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: watched it already

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: we highly recommend

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the Netflix documentary

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Dancing for the Stars

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and the Netflix documentary

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: For the Devil

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: which includes interviews

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: with ex-members of the

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_02]: 7M TikTok cult

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: thanks for listening

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: we're gonna go back

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to prepping all the

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: exciting interviews

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: we have lined up

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: for season seven

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: dropping soon on a

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_02]: podcast feed near you

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: till next time

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_03]: sinking down to the

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_03]: depths of the ocean

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_03]: hanging on to the

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_03]: weight of my love

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_03]: if I let go of it

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_03]: all I could leave

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_03]: but I know

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not alone

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_06]: thanks for listening everyone

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_06]: we're heading over to

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_06]: patreon.com

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: slash

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: a little bit culty now

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_06]: to discuss this episode

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_06]: in the meantime

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_06]: dear listener

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_06]: please remember

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_06]: this podcast

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_06]: is solely

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_06]: for general

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_06]: informational

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_06]: educational

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and entertainment purposes

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_06]: it's not intended

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_06]: as a substitute

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_06]: for real

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_06]: medical

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_06]: legal

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_06]: or therapeutic advice

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_06]: for cult recovery resources

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_06]: and to learn more

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_06]: about seeking safely

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_06]: in this culty world

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_06]: check out

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_06]: a little bit culty

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_06]: dot com

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_06]: slash culty resources

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and don't miss

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Sarah's TED talk called

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_06]: How Cult Literate Are You?

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Great stuff

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_02]: A Little Bit Culty

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: is a Trace120 production

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_02]: executive produced by

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Sarah Edmondson

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and Anthony Nippy Ames

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in collaboration with

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_02]: producer Will Rutherford

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: at Citizens of Sound

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and our co-creator

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and show chaplain

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_02]: slash bodyguard

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Jess Temple-Tardy

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and our theme song

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Cultivated

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is by John Bryant