Dr. Christine Marie on Trust Me: The False Prophet and the Fight for Justice (Part 1)

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[00:00:30] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:58] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult and that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now, in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:01:26] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A, and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to Season 8 of A Little Bit Culty. Seeking down to the depths of the ocean. Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everybody.

[00:01:51] Today's guest knows what it means to have your story told for you and what it means to take it back. Dr. Christine Marie is a psychologist, speaker, and founder of Voices for Dignity with a deep commitment to supporting survivors of cults, trafficking, and public shaming. And if her name sounds familiar, it might be because the documentary, Trust Me, The False Prophet, recently skyrocketed to the number one spot on Netflix globally.

[00:02:17] But long before Christine became part of that story, she had a surprising connection to ours. Years before the world knew the name Keith Raniere, Christine crossed paths with him, an experience that now feels very chilling in hindsight and one that we explore in depth for the first time in today's conversation. For those unfamiliar with the background, this story unfolds in the shadow of the FLDS church, the polygamous sect once led by Warren Jeffs. We've done episodes on him previously.

[00:02:46] Even after Jeffs was sentenced to life in prison in 2011, the culture of fear and prophetic control within parts of the community did not disappear. In the isolated FLDS communities around Short Creek, aka the Crick, on the Utah-Arizona border, a new figure emerged. Samuel Bateman, a former follower of Jeffs, who claimed he was God's new prophet and he allegedly exploited women. I don't even think we have to say allegedly. I think that we have proof of that now. He did exploit women and children under the guise of religious authority.

[00:03:16] He definitely had some Vanguard vibes. Oh, yeah. In the docuseries, Christine, her husband, Toko Katas, and Keep Sweet filmmaker Rachel Drettson work to expose Bateman and help bring him to justice. And oh, is that sweet justice. That's in episode four. We really recommend watching the whole series. It's incredible. But behind the headlines is a more complicated story, one about what happens when visibility meets vulnerability.

[00:03:40] And in this conversation, we explore the healing power of telling your story and the risk that comes with it. From online cruelty to victim-blaming, Christine shares what it's like to speak out and then see your story reshaped in the public eye. Part one is Christine's story, which is not really covered too much in depth in the docuseries. And part two is her experience with the doc, working with the FLDS, and the women, and the aftermath where they all are now. It's a fascinating conversation. I think you're really going to enjoy it.

[00:04:10] Please stay till the end for part two, while we are going to share a very special little NXIVM nugget Easter egg for those nerds out there. And here's part one with Christine Marie. Welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Dr. Christine Marie. This is so wild.

[00:04:42] So wild because first of all. Where do we start? I mean, yeah. How are you? You are such an incredible, brave, badass, incredible woman that I knew already a little bit, but now my thought of you and my experience of you has just exploded a million fold as to who you are and what you're capable of. How are you doing? You're so sweet. I'm doing great. I mean, it's been intense. An intense few years.

[00:05:09] And even right now, in the aftermath of the docuseries, it's been intense in a different way, but I couldn't be more thrilled. So happy to hear that. The outcome was pretty almost perfect in terms of justice, which is very rare in many of the interviews that we're in. Do people get that kind of justice?

[00:05:59] I know. We have to watch it to know what we're talking about. Should we go through it? Well, we're going to give a little bit of context in the introduction to you, and we'll record that separately. So we don't have to go through all the details, but there's just so many things.

[00:06:13] Well, suffice to say, one of the things I think that you were just talking about that I was noticing, and I commented to Sarah this morning, is you were able to get in there like a mole, which allowed you to have access to a lot of forensics, which was the parallel in our case. And unfortunately, that's what it took for this kind of accountability. And you would know probably more than I do that a lot of these cases don't have access to that kind of evidence.

[00:06:43] So they're harder to persecute. Well, let's just backtrack just a little bit. I want to do, if that makes sense. I want to just like set the stage a little bit more. And before we even get into the documentary, can we just establish so our audience knows our connection? Yeah, it's us. All right. Let's just back up just a little bit, then we'll get into the doc, because I do think it's… That's vital. That's vital. It is vital. And I think it's wild. And Nippy and I were debating, do we save this tender morsel? No, I wasn't debating. Until the end.

[00:07:11] And so what I was thinking is we could talk about it now. And if you're comfortable with it, to encourage people to finish the podcast, would you read your journal entry from when you met Keith Raniere? Sure. I said it. I have to find it. Let's see. I have the email you sent me, so I could just forward it back to you so it's easy. Yeah, yeah, totally. But like, I'm trying to remember who can… So just to backtrack so our audience knows, and our audience has this group called the NXIVM Nerds.

[00:07:40] Christine, who like just are obsessed with NXIVM story, and they're going to just shit their pants when they hear that you and I were connected originally when I first got out of NXIVM. Who connected us? Was it Dr. Stephen Hassan or was it Barbara Boucher? I don't remember. Somebody connected us. I mean, we have both those contacts in common, so it could have been… Could have been either. I suspect it was Barbara. Yes. And you supported me then.

[00:08:10] With dealing with the media and stupid journalists who didn't know how to interview cult survivors. Was that… That's my memory of it. This is nine years ago. What's your memory? Yeah. There was a media piece where a psychiatrist was shaming you. You know, acting as if there was something wrong with you for having gone down the NXIVM road. And I just went ballistic. That's what I remember too.

[00:08:40] Because that's my PhD specialty. Victim shaming, media misrepresentation, and humiliation. And when they did that to you, I wrote… I was so frustrated I wrote a whole piece about this is what you don't do. That was hurtful. And what was their response? If any. I don't know. I wrote it on my own website. So, I might have written to them too. Knowing me. Yes. Knowing you.

[00:09:09] The advocate that you are. And so, you were that to me, and I'll never forget that. And, you know, we exchanged, you know, texts. We never met in person. But you also told me that you had met Keith Raniere. I have met Keith Raniere. And this was after your own false prophet thing, which I'd like to get into a little bit, if you don't mind. It was actually before. It was before. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

[00:09:38] So, just to summarize from what I know about you and tell me if I've got this wrong. You were Mormon. You were raised Mormon? No, you chose, you converted to Mormonism as a teenager? Yes. Yes. Okay. You got married. You had four kids. You got divorced. I'm just going to condense this part. Tell me if there's anything that's important to know. And then, how did you meet Keith? This is when you were divorced, I guess. Yes. It was 1998, and I had a business. It was called the Applebrook Family Enforcement Network.

[00:10:08] And I had created a product line to help promote positive parenting and family literacy. And then, I had about 800 sales reps selling my products. It was amazing. Anyway, so, after my divorce, I was struggling with my business. I needed funding.

[00:10:26] I was desperate because my little business underwent a public cancellation because my sales reps learned that I was LDS and decided that I was in a cult. And then, they were all turning in their sales kits. And it was a big, you know, it's a big religious persecution thing. So, I was in a desperate situation as a single mother, losing my business.

[00:10:50] And I met, actually, Barbara Jeske in Michigan. Wild. And she said, she came to my farm, and she said, you have to meet Keith Ranieri. He will help you. You know, and I showed her my product line. So, Keith invited me to Albany, and someone paid for my ticket.

[00:11:14] So, I'd go to Albany on a train, and he represented to me that he was going to take on my product line, my business, and so on. So, when I went there, it was before NXIVM. It was executive success programs as well as that National Health Network. Is that what it was called? Yeah. So, he was going to hire me.

[00:11:38] So, I met Tony Natale when, you know, when they had their store, and that's how I met Keith. And then, should I go on? As much as you feel comfortable sharing. I mean, this is not in the documentary, and I think this is wild information. So, whatever you feel comfortable with. Okay, I think it matters because if I would have never met Keith, I would have never been able to do what I did in the documentary. Tell us more.

[00:12:04] Because, so I was excommunicated from the Mormon Church because I had slept with my boyfriend. I mean, we were both single, but still, they didn't like that. And so, I was, you know, questioning how the world even worked. And then, I meet Keith, of all people. And he was very pressuring. You know, he wanted me to be in his inner circle.

[00:12:32] He told me that he talked to all the ladies in his inner circle, and he had one slot left that I could have built. By now, only one slot left. You know, he said this dance card is really full. It was so weird to me because my background had been Mormon, and I believed in like a prophet.

[00:12:55] Now, here he was, not a prophet, but a guru, acting as if he had some divine connection. And I just thought he was, you know, somewhat of a con artist or a manipulator. But I didn't have the language or the knowledge to really, you know, know what he was up to. However, because I had a little network marketing company, I did see what they were doing. They were taking Keith.

[00:13:22] Nancy Salzman, you know, she was there the second time that I came. And I saw they were taking Keith, and they were lifting him up and making him their secret sauce to why people should join. And talking about his high IQ, and I just thought it was a marketing thing. And Keith was nice, as far as I could tell. And he wanted me in his harem.

[00:13:50] And I was thinking it reminded me of polygamy without the religion. And it was weird how openly he spoke about his sexual relationships with all the different women, including Nancy. You know? Really? God, that's so... I was floored by it. He told me, you know, which one he liked because she was into BDSM, which one he liked because she was into that. I know who that is. I'm not going to go into any of that. No, we're going to out them. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:17] But this was all mind-blowing to me because I had been Mormon for so many years. And, you know, I was, for the first time, exploring my own, you know, sexuality in terms of... I mean, can I? Is it okay if I get physical with somebody and I'm not married to them? I mean, I just got excommunicated for it. And, I mean, I was not clear on what my boundaries were in the real world.

[00:14:47] So, I did end up sleeping with Keith, but I didn't want to join his group. And I didn't want to become part of his inner circle, you know? It was weird because all these women that were around him were, like, pressuring me to sleep with Keith. Looking back on it... I mean, I used to tell people I don't feel like a victim of Keith Ranieri because I never went through things that you went through. Barbara went through. Any of these people went through. But that was sexual harassment. Yeah.

[00:15:14] And, you know, I didn't identify as that for years. So, I met him and he said, you need to be part of my group. But he was acting as if he was going to, like, help me with my business. It was a big... It was love bombing and luring me, like, I'm going to solve all your problems. And, you know, I know he's done that since. I mean, to other people. And he was even going to move me there.

[00:15:44] But something about it I was uncomfortable with. And he's... I said, I don't want to do that. I want to have another child. You know, I want to find Mr. Right. And, you know, you don't even want to get married. And he said, if it takes getting married to get you into my group, it's not out of the question. Can you believe this? My God. And he said... Yeah, I can believe it.

[00:16:13] So, he told me to go to my God and pray to find out if I was supposed to marry him. And I said... He said, promise me you'll at least do that. So, I did. And... That night, I had a dream. Like this really vivid, profound dream.

[00:16:42] And I thought God was revealing who I was going to marry. So, I saw a man. And... And it wasn't Keith. So, I told Keith, you know. And so, I just moved on. And, you know, Keith and I remained friends slash acquaintances. And this is before I knew any of his... The bad things he did.

[00:17:07] And then, when I moved to Utah, I saw the man from that dream at a single stance. And because of that coincidence, I thought, aha, this is who I need to marry. God sent me this dream. He looks exactly like the man from that dream. And so, this must be the one. And so, I informed Keith about it. So, Keith was... We were staying in touch.

[00:17:34] So, actually, I was in the middle of two cult leaders. Like there was an intersection. Or should I say two sociopaths? You know, giving my opinion. And that's how this other false prophet became so influential in my life. That gave me the experience and the desire to then study how the brain worked and what happened to me.

[00:18:01] Which gave me the experience and the education to do what I did. That was documented in the Trust Me docuseries. Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion, is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research.

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[00:21:52] Thank you for listening. Now, let's dive back into the cultiverse. Wow. Are you with me still? Yeah. Yeah, totally with you. Totally. So I know you're working on a memoir, and we won't get into all the details. What are the broad strokes of your false prophet experience? I know this is mentioned in the docuseries, but they don't really dig into it. But you got led astray by someone who is highly manipulative and broke down your boundaries and your autonomy and coerce you to do terrible things you would never do otherwise.

[00:22:22] Is that a good summary? Yeah, that is. Okay. Including things that were harmful to myself to be put in those positions. You know, so I was following the Mormon past. See, after Keith, I went running back to Mormonism. And I just thought he was so bizarre, you know, and I was nice to him. But I did. I thought, this is not me. I'm so much more comfortable believing in a prophet.

[00:22:49] I mean, that was my history for 25 years or whatever. So I, you know, got rebaptized into the Mormon church. And then I met this man who represented himself as a prophet. And I went through some really traumatic situations with him. And when that was all done, you know, I was literally rescued by one of his accomplices. And when that experience was done, it took me a long time to heal because of all the victim shaming.

[00:23:18] You know, people weren't anxious to help me because I should have known better. And, you know, the police didn't take my report seriously enough to immediately start investigating, even though I had all this evidence. Familiar story. And so, yeah, I just had to heal with therapists who understood trauma but didn't understand cult-based trauma.

[00:23:47] And it took me a long time. And it seems so interesting that this false prophet introduced you to somebody or, you know, brought someone into your life that actually saved you. Can you speak a little bit to that? Like, did he just sort of wake up and go, oh, this is wrong. I better tell Christine Marie. Like, because he was sort of in on it at the beginning and then had a turn of... Yes, but he had been lied to about me. Okay.

[00:24:09] And when he met me in person, he realized that he had been participating in a terrible, you know, I want to say hoax, but it was so much crueler than that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And a terrible deception causing me harm that I didn't deserve. Right. That nobody deserves. So he had a change of heart. And he's the one. I mean, if he would not have come into my life and did what he did, I would be dead. I believe that.

[00:24:39] Either from, you know, my own decision to end my life or from the very dangerous situations that I was in, in this, you know, cult-based trafficking situation in a very dangerous place. Yeah. So... You were trafficked. I... Yeah. So I have a hero in my life. Somebody who wasn't afraid to speak up and do the right thing.

[00:25:06] Amazing that you then became that person for so many others. Isn't that... Isn't that... Yeah, I had... His name was Jeff. I had to become a Jeff. Mm-hmm. You know? And I'm so proud of him. We're still friends today. He's got a beautiful family. Yeah. Way to go, Jeff. Now, you... Your healing from this process was through the educating yourself. Did the false prophet ever go to jail or have any... Was there any justice for you there?

[00:25:35] There wasn't. He... He did serve some time in jail for another thing. And that is where he actually was a cellmate with this Jeff person. And when Jeff got out of jail before my false prophet, that's when Jeff realized, oh my goodness, what are we doing to this young woman? You know? And so... But he did not... He was never even truly investigated for what he did to me. And I just...

[00:26:05] I chalk it up to Utah. Mm-hmm. I was told by an attorney that Utah Attorney General's Office and various law enforcement agencies don't like to get involved in fringe religion situations. You know, it might be different now, but that's... You know, that's what happened with me. Well, they're powerful. A lot of them. I mean... It's a lot to take on.

[00:26:35] Right. And, you know, Mormonism is so strong in the town and this... I mean, in the state. And my false prophet was playing on Mormon beliefs, so it wouldn't make the church look good. But it didn't make the church look good to not care about their members, their women, to let predators like this just run free. Mm-hmm. So... But... Yeah. My prophet knew about Keith. And Keith knew about my prophet.

[00:27:03] And both of them were trying to say, I'm the real one. In fact... At one point... After... I was... Extremely suicidal. Can I say that word? Of course. Yeah. You can say anything you want. Okay. I thought... I need help. I was in such... A mindfuck. That I was... Taking little steps towards ending my life. And...

[00:27:33] I decided... That I have to... Break my covenant to not tell anyone. I was so desperate. And I thought... Who can I call? I've got to call someone. I can't call anyone in Utah because... I will... You know... They might go after the gold plates. A Mormon thing that... I was supposed to be protecting. If I told anyone about it... I might... Have all these... Enormous spiritual consequences.

[00:28:03] So I decided to call Keith... Because he was supposedly the... Smartest man in the world. So I called Keith... And... He paid for me to go back... To Albany. And him and Nancy tried to deprogram me. You know... And they... Actually did a decent job. And he was trying to explain to me... You know... How predators...

[00:28:31] Can get people... To lose their critical thinking... One tiny step at a time. You know... Like bending the line... Or pushing the line... Something like that. My line bending. He talked about that a lot. Okay. So... I wonder what he learned from me. From seeing how terrified I was to go to the police. After this happened... Because... Of the things that I was involved in. Which I blame myself for. Which I don't now. But at the time... I was terrified... Due to purity culture and everything.

[00:29:01] And I do wonder... You know... If I was... If it got his brain spinning. And it's pretty interesting. He even... Vouched for me... In a newspaper article. Did I tell you that? No. You want to hear his quote? Yeah. It says... Marie describes her experience with... My false prophet... In almost harrowing terms. She even visited a friend in Albany, New York... And attempts to sort it all out.

[00:29:32] Keith Raniere, an Albany educator... Acknowledges... He never met or dealt with this person firsthand. But he can vouch for the fact that the man had a deep grip on Marie. Her conversations about him consistently revolved around his demands on her. Her... Raniere said... It was like peeling back the layers of an onion in order to get to the core of rationality. Like Keith was the author of all rationality and goodness, you know.

[00:30:00] And then he also said... Marie's upstate New York friend Raniere sees her experience as very on point given a world where someone purporting a religious doctrine can actually convince people to fly passenger jets into the World Trade Center. He said... My opinion of Christine is that she's a very remarkable person, but not practical in this world. She's very idealistic. She assumes everyone's honest because she's so honest. Anyway...

[00:30:29] So it's very funny that Keith Raniere, of all people, is explaining to me cult psychology and exactly how it works. And then he went on to do what he did to you guys. Yes. So fucking wild, Christine. What was it like to hear about what he ended up doing in 2017? Was there a big chunk of time? Were you in touch with him all the while while you were in Utah? Or did you lose touch with him?

[00:30:54] Once I understood cult psychology and I started realizing what Keith was, you know, studying narcissism and all kinds of things, I wasn't in touch with him anymore. But when I saw that Barbara had left and was being attacked, I reached out to her because I wanted her to understand. And then we became friends. And then Tony and I started talking.

[00:31:20] And she explained to me about Keith's past with children. And that is when I agreed to go public about it in the Times Union about my experience with Keith. And the reason it mattered... What? Go ahead. What was his past with children? Well, how he had, you know, slept with children. What? And that was a big article. I think it was called...

[00:31:49] Yeah, and I met some of the people that were in that one article. Do you know which article I'm talking about? No. Now my mind is spinning and I'm trying to remember. Wasn't there like somebody, a young girl that he had tutored? Or dog walking or something? Yeah. I vaguely remember this. And she committed suicide. Right. No, we did know about this. But we had been told, of course, that it was all made up and that there was no...

[00:32:17] What we'd been told is if it was true, he'd be in jail. This episode would not be possible without the support of our sponsors. Let's hear what they have to offer. Thank you, sponsors. We couldn't do it without you. Now let's get back to the show.

[00:32:51] That's what we were told. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So... Yeah. So we didn't look further. He was still... You guys were still... Yeah, we were still in. You guys were still in it. And Keith was still out doing his thing. So it was scary. To be public about him when we knew he was doing his litigation machine on everybody. But I did. And it was only later when I saw what happened to you guys. The DOS thing.

[00:33:19] And I mean, I was in shock. I didn't know that he would be that brazen. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought he really must have been drunk on power to keep going and keep going to see how far he could take it. Mm-hmm. And it was when I talked to you, Sarah, and I told you the story how he wanted me to sign a sex slave contract. Mm-hmm. That... That... That... You said you should tell people about that.

[00:33:49] I had tried in, you know, on the bank report, but nobody seemed to care. And my involvement with Keith was... My story was so itty-bitty unimportant compared to some real severe survivors of trauma. It's the same pattern. It's the same pattern, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that he had that fantasy with...

[00:34:14] And acted that out with one of his women, you know, maybe he wanted more women to be doing that kind of thing. So I... I did contact law enforcement for different reasons. I kept watching his story. And the only information I got was... At that time was on the Frank report. And... And... Other than the One Times Union article that preexisted, you know, his takedown.

[00:34:43] But I... Kept looking for... Oh, I learned that... I learned from, you know, some inside information that Keith had held somebody in a room. You know, a young woman in a room. And I saw that as... I saw that as trafficking because by then I knew about it. And I never saw the word trafficking coming out in any of the articles or posts.

[00:35:12] And I'm like, why are they not pinpointing this? This is clearly human trafficking. Mm-hmm. You know, a girl from Mexico trapped. Anyway, so I called the human trafficking hotline and reported that.

[00:35:28] And I also talked to the FBI about my experience when Keith was trying to pressure me into signing a sex slave contract, which, you know, that was something that... This is 98, by the way, right? Like it was 1998. 98. Because people have asked me, you know, did Keith start off with good intentions and then things went sideways? And I haven't used your name before. There's no way. But I have told people that I met someone who knew him before I joined.

[00:35:57] Like I've told the story without your name. So I invited to the harem and said like, but you had to sign a con... So he was more out front at the beginning and then he realized you had to hide it. Like when I joined, that was all hidden. Right. Right. So, but he was using coercive techniques. Right. Back then. You know, and fixated on sex. And it was all just too uncomfortable for me. So that's why I went running back to Mormonism.

[00:36:23] So, but I, you know, left a message on the FBI tip line about Keith and they called me back. And I told them what I knew. And, you know, it wasn't much. But I, you know, thought if they needed to show a pattern, I'm a witness to that. And, you know, I guess they didn't need that for their case. They had such good witnesses. But I spoke out. I did my part.

[00:36:50] You know, I delivered the information that I have, which is what you did, what we should all do. So, and my respect to you for being the first one to come out and actually show what happened and allow a picture to be in the news. Because that picture was worth a hundred million words.

[00:37:19] My husband always says the camera is the new gun. No matter what you say, people don't believe it as much as a picture or video. And I, you know, I'm proud of you for getting that ball rolling. And this is during an era when people victim-shamed cult survivors. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. It was great. Well, thank you for the support now and during that time because there wasn't many people to get it.

[00:37:48] And I'll never forget our talks then. And in retrospect, like nine years went by. You know, I didn't, I think maybe we exchanged some texts every now and then, but I had no idea you'd gone to Utah. And you were doing this whole other mission, this whole endeavor behind the scenes. And this is after you got your, tell us about the, quickly, your cult education. And then we'll take a little break and then hear about your next adventure.

[00:38:18] Okay. So I shared my story in the media in 2013. And I thought it would be this classy documentary by this, you know, it was an award-winning company. And I thought, you know, the reputation was good. So I shared my story. But it was a docudrama. And they fictionalized my story so it would fit into a certain theme of people who committed horrific crimes in the name of God or something. And I had not committed any crimes.

[00:38:47] And to see how they did a spin on it and the public backlash, the bullying, the cruelty. After I shared my survivor story and how this company destroyed my story. I thought I had no ability to ever recover from that. Because it was, it's one thing to be sexually assaulted in private.

[00:39:15] It's another thing to be accused of causing it to happen to yourself and publicly shamed worldwide. And it was a world, a network that had worldwide affiliates. And so I thought nobody will ever hire me again. And I mean, they watch this, they're just going to think, you know, it was all this worst possible stereotypical things you could think about somebody who had a cult experience. Which now we're more educated, but that was a lot, that was over a decade.

[00:39:45] That was 2013, yeah. And this, was it a reenactment? Was it like somebody reenacted you or you were involved? It was both. So you could see me talking, but they would frank and bite, you know what that means? Yeah. You know, take pieces of sentences that I speak with my voice and then take pieces of words from another place and patch it together over a reenactment. So you can't see that I didn't say that sentence.

[00:40:11] And they just made me look like an absolute buffoon that was in love with a psychopath and just excited to do whatever he said, no matter what it was. And it was, so that was rough. So after that, I went, wait, sorry, Christine, can I interrupt for one sec? I just feel if you haven't already, it's so important. I need you to connect with Sarma Mangalis from Bat, she was in Bad Vegan. Have you connected with her already? I have. Okay, good. She got franken-bited. Franken-bit.

[00:40:41] Franken-bit. So I feel like you two need to be friends, but you have connected. You know, that's what my daughter said too. She was on my daughter's podcast too, Lola. And she kept saying, you guys got to be friends. And we talked once, but maybe we need to be friends instead of just talking. Yes. I think she's adorable. She's amazing. And you'd love her book too, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So I went back to school.

[00:41:06] I already had a master's degree, but after this happened, I thought, I have to make something good come from this. That misrepresentation and public humiliation was the worst thing that had ever happened to me. Because even though there might've been more physical trauma on my body in other situations, this was a public peace that made me, it was like the public wanted me to be eliminated from the family of humankind.

[00:41:36] It was so devastating. So I went back to school late in life and I got a PhD and I actually finished my PhD after I moved here to this FLDS community. So I was done with all the coursework that was required. And I took one more class, you know, and then I was just working on my dissertation here.

[00:42:04] So yeah, I finished my PhD once I came here. So I graduated in 2020 and I just started realizing that, you know, there are really important ways we can use media to make a difference because my specialty was media psychology. And I wanted to use media for good and use media in a way that would not victim shame people. Amazing.

[00:42:35] That I think is the perfect place to take a little pause. And on Thursday, we're going to come back with Dr. Christine Marie and hear about how she used media for good in the FLDS community and all about the Trust Me, the False Prophet documentary and her journey there and how everybody's doing now. So don't miss it. And maybe at the end, Christine will read from her journal entry where she met Keith Ranieri just to keep you going to the end of the podcast. See you Thursday.

[00:43:06] We hope you're enjoying A Little Bit Culti. If so, please do show us some love. Drop a rating or leave a review. Hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen. And subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culti.

[00:43:36] Even better, send this episode to someone who needs it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit susceptible. Or maybe they just love a good story. Spread the word. Spread the love. Thanks for listening and see you next time. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsenbor.

[00:44:02] Writing by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Swarczynski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.