Suzanne Jordan on Exposing 3HO, Kundalini, and Yogi Bhajan (Part 2)

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[00:01:47] The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty, the podcast where we unpack cults, control, and coercion.

[00:02:16] We woke up from a cult. The whole wild ride ended up in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now, after eight seasons of hearing every kind of culty story imaginable, we've bottled up everything we've learned into a book, also called A Little Bit Culty. It's available now in all formats on Amazon, Audible, and where fine books are sold. Or get a signed, personalized copy on our website. Better yet, ask your local bookstore or library to order it and encourage them to get on that cult awareness bandwagon.

[00:02:43] On the show, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive, with honest conversations about how everyday groups can slide into the cultiverse. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to talk red flags, resilience, and recovery. And yes, we still make time to laugh. Sometimes you have to, or you'll cry. Want early, ad-free episodes, live Q&As, and exclusive extras? Join us on Patreon at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti. Welcome to Season 9 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:03:25] Welcome back to Part 2, everyone, with Suzanne Jordan, the Deviant Daughter. Author of The Deviant Daughter. She's no longer the Deviant Daughter. Deviant in the best ways. So we ended part one, talking about, teasing out a little bit about, I mean, not only were you one of the few people that we've ever met that's actually met him versus just studied his teachings, but you were able to confront him. But before you did, how much do you feel comfortable sharing about how he attempted to have sex with you?

[00:03:55] I'm very comfortable sharing about it because I think we have to tell what happened to heal and to make people aware of what goes on. In the summer of 1984, my husband demanded that I go to ladies' camp. I didn't want to go. I had started studying martial arts. I was getting these little tastes of freedom away from the ashram with my hair down training that felt really good. But he demanded that I go. So I decided I was going to go and I was going to be in rebellion.

[00:04:24] And so I was going to do whatever I wanted that summer. And I actually found a garage to rent and I skipped Yogi Bhajan's lectures and I was wearing black and doing martial arts. So couldn't have been more flying in the face of what is considered proper protocol. And so I got a message that he demanded that I be at his lecture that day in full Banna, which means the full 3HO dress.

[00:04:50] And during that lecture, he put a challenge on how to learn how to basically manipulate and control people. And I actually have the video on my YouTube channel. I had no idea this video existed of me at 24 taking him on. But he gave us permission. I should have sent it to you before. That's how you have the exact dialogue. Nippy and I were wondering, how did you get that dialogue? The dialogue is in their lecture book for that year, too. Wow.

[00:05:19] And I went through and I know what I'm saying. So I have the exact dialogue. But at any rate, he said, come at me. Tell me I'm the worst person on the earth. Come at me however you want. But you have to be the most graceful woman, smiling and pleasant. And so I was sitting there just with a burn going because women were trying to do it, but they were teehee-heeing and they were too shy. And it was too outrageous to really take Yogi Bhajanan.

[00:05:46] So I finally just had my arm up as high as I could shoot it in the air. And I'm like, I want to take this mother down. I want to like really shame him and confront him the way he does to us. So he called on me and I went up to a microphone and I said, sir, I'd like to talk to you about your weight. And the whole room groans like there's nervous laughter. When you hear it, you'll be amazed.

[00:06:11] But and I come at him about basically being an overweight yogi and I'm smiling and I'm trying to be charming. But he keeps trying to wiggle out of it. And I keep telling him, nope, it's all on you. Nope, that's an excuse. And it was so outrageous. And I mean, many, many people have told me they've never seen anyone confront Yogi Bhajan like that. And I got to tell you guys, I don't know where that came from. The stars were aligned that day.

[00:06:39] My sister watched it and said, I don't know that person. I don't know the voice coming out of you. Like, who is that? And I'm like, I had this burning desire to let him know what I thought of him. And this was a way to do it. So the conversation lasts about seven minutes. Immediately after, I get told, Yogi Bhajan wants to see you right now up at the ranch. And I'm like, oh, am I in trouble? Kind of a thing.

[00:07:03] And Pamela Dyson said to me, he would have wanted to put you in your place after that performance. And so I got up to the ranch. I was let in and he was in a lazy boy, which I always seem to see him in his lazy boy. And he told me to massage his feet, which were huge and gross. And so I knelt down to massage his feet. And he was, I think he was on the phone. And, but I noticed him staring at me and I was getting uncomfortable.

[00:07:30] So I was looking down and eventually he scooched down in his recliner and he took his feet and he went like this to my breasts and started palpating my chest. And I reclined back to get out of his view and he just got the most shit eating grin on his face. And I thought, oh crap, you know, what's next? And then he got up and told me to follow him to what I believe was his wife's bedroom.

[00:07:59] And he went into the bedroom and he pulled the covers back and he sat down. And I mean, his big belly was hanging over, you know, I mean, he was, I think, 60 and I was 24. But he's patting the bed and he's going like that. I'm like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. And I literally braced myself in the door jam. And because of what had happened to me up at Lake Tahoe, I mean, all my red flags were flying. So I braced myself in the door.

[00:08:28] And I said, I'm not going to have sex with you. I think of you like an old grandpa. And he was like, fuck you, get out. You know, you look like shit. Go make yourself worthy to be my lover. Get yourself some new clothes. Make yourself. And he was yelling more stuff, but I was hightailing it out of there. And that was just the moment where all the cards fell. You know, it's like, okay, now I know all the rumors are true. He's not who he said he was.

[00:08:57] He thinks he can do this with me. He would have had to kill me to rape me. I can tell you that. So, and then I ran down to Española, got in the car, went into town. I called a man that I was calling in love with, who sadly I was duplicating history. It was my best friend's husband. And he chuckled. And he called Yogi Bhajan dad. And he goes, oh, dad is into you. And I'm like, this is not funny. So that was a shock.

[00:09:25] And then when I, and I split from cam. I left and got reported that I had gone AWOL and went to my martial art instructor, Graciela Casillas' home. She was my heroine who helped me to get out. And when I told my husband, he did the whole sticking his fingers in his ears. So right away, I'm like, wow, no, no one actually cares.

[00:09:49] Like, because he's my spiritual teacher and he knows more about me than I know myself. It was unusual for him to try to pursue married women from what I've been told. But, I mean, all the single women he told, they were his spiritual wives. And none of them knew that he was saying it to all of them. And then he gave them the secretaries. How many secretaries did he have? Oh, I mean, at least a dozen and a half.

[00:10:18] But one of the secretaries that I'm close with said he had sex with anybody he could. Hundreds. She believes hundreds and hundreds of women were coerced or full on raped. So he just and then he was having orgies with the second gen. And because his sexual needs got more intense, they became more perverse. There's so much that still isn't out because of people's privacy.

[00:10:45] And you have to respect when a victim isn't ready to divulge. But we do know a lot. And with the lawsuits, maybe we'll know more soon. I've had to hold a lot under my hat that way. But, yeah. So that was the turning point. And that's when I realized. And he told me to think about him as his lover and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I mean, really, he's younger than I am now.

[00:11:11] But he seemed like such an old, grotesque person to me when I was 24. I just can't even imagine women complying with that. But I don't know what their wounds are that made that acceptable. Yeah. From what we've read and looking at people like Osho, which seems to have, or Bhagwan Rajneesh, like following a very similar template of Khan artistry and using spirituality to dupe the masses.

[00:11:40] There seems to be a pattern of the women who either went along, when I say went along with, I mean, like they were all coerced. But believing that it was part of the spiritual journey to just fully surrender and not feeling like they could say no. So, yeah. And then the shame keeps them loyal to the. And I struggle with that. I struggle with that dichotomy of that you were a victim, but you were also complicit.

[00:12:10] Because for some of those secretaries, for me, there was such a moral lapse in grooming a young girl. And yet I want to have compassion that they're also a victim, but they all enabled him. And I asked two of them point blank, are you having sex with Yogi Bhajan? And they both said, are you crazy? Right. So just lying to this community of people that are so devout, that's hard to take.

[00:12:37] Let me ask you, what's your delineation on that? Because I have some strong opinions. I mean, at first I railed against them. And when I started the Beyond the Cage group on Facebook, there was so much rage and anger. Second Gen has a lot of rage and anger at the secretaries that sex trafficked them from New Mexico to California, who went out and bought them clothes that would be pleasing for Yogi Bhajan,

[00:13:04] who laid in bed while having sex with Yogi Bhajan to make it normal for a young girl. So there is a lot of outrage and anger because, of course, just like Keith Raniere, you couldn't have done it by yourself. Well, you had to have your legion of soldiers that were devout, that would perpetuate all the lies. And I think it's both. I think there's culpability to say. Virginia Giuffre does this beautifully in her book.

[00:13:33] She says how she has to live with the fact that she went out and groomed young women and set them up for all the pain that she went through. That's what I have goosebumps. That's what I would like to see. I would like the secretaries of Yogi Bhajan to admit what they did and also let us hold for them that they were victims. But tell the truth. The fact that so many of these women are going to die and take it to their grave, it just enrages me because what do we chant in 3HO? Sat Nam. Truth is God.

[00:14:02] Truth has nothing to do with 3HO. Truth has nothing to do with Yogi Bhajan because all they did was deception and lies and enabling. And it just infuriates me because I think it takes a real moral courage. And look, I tried to do that in my book. I don't look good in my book. I talk about horrible behaviors that I had. But isn't that what being a full human being is? I mean, that's why we cancel people because they have a failure and we eliminate them. Right. Right.

[00:14:32] Kevin Spacey or Matt Lauer and they're gone. What I want is don't remove them. Let's stay in the conversation. Let's talk about why you're like that and what you understand about that. And what maybe could you learn that you won't be like that anymore? How else will we ever evolve? If we just sequester people that are, you know, breaking the rules, we will never grow and learn from it.

[00:14:57] Also, you never get their stories because they've been too canceled and they're going to do one of two things. They're going to demonstrate that their character is reprehensible or they're going to demonstrate that their character is redeemable and that their wisdom can be can add to the narrative. And there's a person in our story who demonstrated, you know, compliance and actually was a perpetrator. And this person has been shamed to oblivion.

[00:15:22] And I think their story is way more valuable if we introduce them into the conversation about how they were able to get condom manipulated. It just adds more to the narrative. And I never thought I said I would be saying that nine years later because I was pissed at this person. They were complicit. And like, yeah, so I've been able to kind of go, OK, they've paid their debt to society. They actually have demonstrated they want to come forward and talk about it. And then there needs to be a certain now everyone's going to be kind to themselves.

[00:15:52] Right. Look, I couldn't agree. I couldn't agree with you more because life is messy. It's not black or white. You're not all you're a victim and you were complicit. You got raped and you helped him rape other people. I mean, that's the conundrum of life is that it gets this messy. It gets this chaotic. But I think in America, we're just so used to pendulum swings where, you know, Bill Clinton has to say he doesn't inhale, which nobody believed.

[00:16:20] But he would have lost his political life if he admitted that he did. Why can't we be messy? I mean, right. Well, why can't it get messy? Why can't we be real humans and talk about it? So if the secretaries could share. But of course, what you just said happened to your friend. You don't want to be vilified publicly. You don't want to be shamed. So most people lack the courage, I think, or just the internal fortitude to stand up to something like that.

[00:16:49] And it's one of my biggest drivers is whole human beings are messy. Whole human beings have light and dark. We fuck up. We correct. That's the real picture. And this idea that you're either the perfect politician or the perfect this. It doesn't exist. And as long as we keep perpetuating that, nobody who makes a mistake can never be heard from or understood. And then we can't evolve. So it's a huge, a great point.

[00:17:17] And also think about like, I mean, I have, I know people who still practice Kundalini and it'd be very difficult to admit that their Yogi Bhajan was like the Jeffrey Epstein of the wellness world. So, you know, easier just to ignore it, not face it.

[00:17:38] I've heard such outrageous things like, well, he didn't rape me, you know, or, you know, he's dead, but I'm sorry. They are still representing his toxic teachings that say women invite rape that nobody's ever raped. Women invite it subconsciously. And then women enjoy being beaten up and then rape. You can go on to the library of teachings online today and see those teachings. So they are so toxic.

[00:18:07] What do you say to people who still do like breath of fire and like some of the exercises? I don't think there's anything brilliant about Kundalini yoga. It's definitely not a technology. There's a finite number of ways that a human can breathe, move their body. Right. And so it's a way to breathe and move your body. The fact that people assign it saved my life. I'm like, but did it really, or did you save your life? And if that didn't exist, you would have found something else.

[00:18:35] So it's that confirmation bias when you get in and then everybody's telling you how good it is and you want to believe that it's good. And you don't want to say you didn't have an amazing experience. Right. Same with white tantric yoga. But it's like I this is a huge issue in the group. And a lot of people left the group because I allowed people in. We have six thousand members and I allowed people in that are still practicing Kundalini yoga because I'm not here to legislate behavior. We had enough of that.

[00:19:05] Right. But you're here and you want to grow and learn. But the problem would be if they would come in and they would start talking about the magical benefits of Kundalini yoga. None of which can be proven. Right. You do a Kriya to enhance your arc line as a woman. Yogi Bhajan said the arc line went from nipple to nipple on a woman. It's why we wore the white veils over the turban was to enhance our arc line, which had something to do with your personal radiance.

[00:19:33] As far as I know, there's no machine that measures the radiance of a woman from nipple to nipple. Right. It's so fucking stupid. And yet people believe this. And all of the Kriyas have these prescriptive, you know, it'll increase your abundance. It'll increase your ability to go through stress. Yes. I mean, I guess if you have a stressful situation and you do better with it. OK. But any meditation would do that. Right. Any kind of.

[00:20:00] But Yogi Bhajan stuff is all prescriptive. You can literally thumb through any ailment and do this Kriya. Stick your finger up your nose, breathe through your right nostril and put your left hand in the air until your left armpit sweats. And you got it. And there's no proof on any of this. And they all just believe it. Right. The fallacy of white tantric yoga. So it's going to clear out your subconscious. The definition of your subconscious is an area of the mind that cannot be known.

[00:20:31] So how do you know what's in your subconscious? So how would you know if it got cleansed? Right. That everybody's doing this to clear their subconscious. Oh, initially when I came in, the Mahan tantric Yogi Bhajan had to be physically present. He had to be within 100 feet of the practitioners for it to work. But then Yogi Bhajan got fat and got diabetes and was totally unhealthy and couldn't do it anymore. Then. Oh, no. His electromagnetic energy is on the VHS tape.

[00:21:00] And he's conducting and clearing your subconscious through that VHS tape. And so now they're selling VHS tapes of white tantric yoga. And I'm like, wait, the whole premise just changed completely. But if you're new, you don't know that he used to say that. So there's no proof of white tantric yoga, except that you listen to this mesmeric chanting music. You're in community. You feel like you belong. Everybody's saying it's amazing.

[00:21:27] So there's something wrong with you if it wasn't amazing for you. And people look tantric yoga has tanked in the United States. They are focusing on China, South America and Europe because the stories haven't reached that far. But they are rebranding like crazy to try to, you know, weather the scandal. Are they litigious at all? Like, have you been is there any like cease and desist for you speaking out or other people speaking out? No.

[00:21:56] I mean, I had a financial settlement for the harm done to me by Yogi Bhajan. This is the thing. They will not say that he did any harm, but they'll give you a financial settlement. So are they going to come after a victim of Yogi Bhajan? They better not. But so, you know, this is what they did for their damage control. I have it on good authority that their attorney said, look, you have to do some kind of reparation program or you're going to be buried in lawsuits. And so they initiated a reparation program.

[00:22:26] You told your story and then they told you an amount they were willing to give you. I've been told it was millions of dollars, but they still venerate him as a saint. They never say that he did anything wrong. And look, I've been at this for seven years and I largely feel ineffective. And part of it is because they get money from the Yogi Tea Company. They get millions of dollars in grant money every year.

[00:22:52] And so even if their summer solstice went from like 2000 people to 200 people, they can keep the appearance of being afloat because they get all this grant money. So their Kundalini teaching, the Kundalini Research Institute, 3HO, the White Tantric Yoga, they're all being supplemented by Yogi Tea and by different grants. And so it's really hard to feel like you could ever take this organization down because of that.

[00:23:20] And they will not admit that he did anything wrong ever. Loving the podcast? Now you can listen to the book too. A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion is now out on Audible. Yes, it is narrated by us. So you get the stories, the hard-won wisdom, and even a few tangents that didn't make it into the paperback. The book takes what we've learned from our own experience inside NXIVM and from hundreds of conversations with survivors and experts and turns it into a practical, compassionate guide

[00:23:49] to spotting coercive control, getting out, and healing from it. Because culty shit is everywhere and it doesn't always look like people wearing matching robes in the desert. These dynamics show up in relationships, workplaces, wellness communities, churches, social media, anywhere someone claims to have all the answers. And we're pretty proud that the book has been endorsed by powerhouses like Leah Remini, Bethany Joy Lenz, Dr. Romani Dervasala, Tia Lovings, Evan Rachel Wood, Jessica Willis Fisher, and so many more.

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[00:29:23] Let's get back to our story. Okay. Jesus. Put a pin right there. I just need to go back for a second because I realized we didn't talk about how you got out and how you escaped. How I got out. So can you tell the story of, so we have the sexual encounter. Tell us about when he tried to hit you and how great your martial art training came into play. That was, I mean, this really does need to be a movie. I do say that a lot on this podcast, but in this particular scene, I loved it.

[00:29:53] So I came back in disgrace and I wanted to leave with the man that I had fallen in love with. And we got manipulated into an audience with Yogi Bajan where he blew that up in about 15 minutes. That was pretty masterful on his part. And then I didn't know how to leave. I didn't know. I had no resources. I'd only lived in LA in an ashram. And so I was trying to figure out how to leave and then staying while being completely vilified by the community.

[00:30:22] Because the woman that I betrayed was a wonderful woman. And I will say the relationship only ever was kissing. It never went further than that. But betrayal is betrayal. And so I was vilified and pretty much hiding out because people hated me. And then Yogi Bajan got the idea because he was told I had good skin, that I should go on this multi-level marketing tour with his Oriental Beauty Secrets line.

[00:30:49] And so I headed off on my own dime for three weeks all across the country to pitch his product, which never did well at all. And so that was a distraction. And then the night that I came back from there, I hadn't been wearing the clothing or my turban now for a couple months. And instead of taking me home at close to midnight, my husband drove me in front of the ashram. So I let a few expletives fly in his direction.

[00:31:17] And then I went in and immediately Yogi Bajan says, oh my God, you've gotten fat. Look at you. You're wearing black. Your hair is down. You're a disgrace. So this is our beginning. And I went in and you were supposed to sit beneath Yogi Bajan when you were in his company. So he was on a chair. I should have sat on the floor. And you're supposed to touch his feet and then touch your third eye so you can get the dust of the feet of the saint as a blessing on your third eye.

[00:31:46] I didn't do either of those things. So I'm sitting across from him and he's just ripping into me. But then it all of a sudden dawns on him I haven't done the protocol. And he's like, how dare you come in here and not touch the feet of your teacher? And I'm like, I'm not going to touch your feet. How dare you not sit beneath me? I'm like, I'm not going to sit beneath you. And he launched out of the chair, fist up, came at me. And I'd been doing martial arts six days a week.

[00:32:14] So I just bobbed and weaved and came into a stance. And literally in my head, I heard, come on, fat man. Like I was just ready. And so he changed his tactic, you know, and I have had shuddering fear of what would have happened if he'd connected and he'd actually been able to beat me. I'm so fortunate that he didn't. But my adrenaline has never been higher. And then he changed his tactic into, you're my daughter.

[00:32:44] You're my daughter of the Calsa, my loving daughter. And what I can do for you. I want to make you great. I want you to have a Mercedes Benz and lots of money. And it was so infuriating because I went in so belligerent and ready to fight. And he knew my buttons. He knew my weakness was about my viability financially and my security.

[00:33:09] And after all these promises he made that with Oriental Beauty Secrets, I would be a millionaire within a year and I would have a Mercedes Benz or a Jaguar. I was kneeling down with my forehead on his big toe thanking him. And you talked about this in your book that you rationally want to have a final conversation. You want to like tie up the knots and complete. And as soon as I stepped out of his space, that spell was broken and I went, oh, God damn it.

[00:33:39] And then I knew there's not going to be a final conversation. I'm 24 trying to deal with a master manipulator. He gets me every time. He finds a way to find my weakness and control me again. And so that was the last time I ever saw him. And then it took still it took a couple more weeks. I was approaching my 25th birthday in November. I didn't want to be there on my birthday. And Graciela, my martial arts instructor, finally said, come and stay with me.

[00:34:09] We can figure this out. And it was like the heavens opened. Oh, my God, I have a way. And so I pretended that I was sick that morning. So I didn't get up at 3.30 to go to Sadhana. And when everybody left, I don't know why I was doing this. I was running to my car with armfuls of white clothing like I was ever going to wear it again and heaving it in the car and getting more. And I had tried to leave twice before, but he assigned five people to watch me.

[00:34:35] And I swear to God, there must have been a camera in the room because I was secretly trying to pack twice. And this group of people walked in. You can't leave Kirtankar. You'll be a cockroach for a million years in your next lifetimes. And they believed that. And, you know, you'll be you'll have turned your back on the guru. And so I did it at five in the morning and ran to my car, filled it up and hit the 10 in Santa Monica to go to Graciela's.

[00:35:05] Could barely drive. I was like Jesse at the end of Breaking Bad when he went through the gate. I was crying so hard and screaming because I was finally getting away. So that's how I got out. But I got conned into a meeting with lawyers the next day for our divorce. I didn't have any advice or counsel and found out that my husband, who'd worked in the boiler

[00:35:29] room for the Ram Dass Enterprises, where they said there was no karma over the telephone. So they could, you know, dupe people. And he had lied to me and all of his income had been borrowed because he wasn't making any money. So I found out that day that he had an enormous debt and that I was liable for it in the state of California. And I said, well, I'll be filing bankruptcy then because I'm not paying any of that money.

[00:35:58] So that was my nice start on my new life was having bankruptcy. bankruptcy. But ultimately, you didn't have to pay the debt. I didn't. But I had a bankruptcy on my record. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Avoid it. I didn't pay it. But ultimately, you're right, Sarah. It really was a triumphant exit. Like I felt I triumphed over everything he had tried to do. I don't know how I found that fortitude. But thank God that I did.

[00:36:25] Thank God I had someone like Graciela who had been teaching martial arts in the community. And really wanted to help me escape. Yeah. I really felt like your book was, you know, thanks to your journals as well. So indicative of like the inner gymnastics and the back and forth. Like, you know, you wanted to go, but you couldn't leave. And you made a commitment, but you needed to leave. And you knew you should leave. You saw the bad thing, but you had hope for the future. Like just the flipping and the flopping.

[00:36:54] And I think so many people in your condition or your condition, your situation would stay if they didn't have that lifeline. And your lifeline to her was so important. It was. And I think more people would have left. But the buy-in for 3-H-O was huge. You're talking about a name change. Usually you're separated from your family at birth. You've been dressing a certain way. I mean, divorces in 3-H-O were awful because the family would divorce.

[00:37:24] And when the kids were in 3-H-O, their names were, you know, Sadnessing and Gudugi Kar. And then when they were with mom, they were John and Sally. I mean, imagine. And they ate meat with mom, but they were vegetarians with dad. I mean, it was terrible on those divorces were horrible. What a split. Yeah. I'm glad I didn't have children because it was hell on the kids. But the buy-in is so deep. I mean, I literally was like, huh, am I going to shave my legs? Am I going to drink alcohol? Am I going to eat meat?

[00:37:54] You know, and I use that Paul Simon song. And so you see, I have come to doubt all that I once held as true. I didn't feel any confidence that I could believe in myself, that I could make a decision and count on myself. I said I was going to be a Sikh forever. Now I'm not. I said I was going to marry this man forever and I didn't. So how can I believe anything? And, you know, I'm working on book two, but it's like what impresses me so strongly is

[00:38:22] when we have trauma and we don't know how to heal it. One woman said when she was reading my book, she wanted to punch me. And I'm like, I get it. You watch me making one bad decision after another. And I am I not learning anything? And it's like, welcome to trauma. If you can't unearth that trauma. And guys, I did a ton of personal growth seminars afterward and I did therapy. But blind spots are blind spots.

[00:38:50] And how do you find a blind spot when it's blind to you? And somehow in therapy, I didn't get to a whole lot of stuff that I didn't know till I was sobbing over a keyboard going, I had no idea I had this much pain in my body. I had no idea there was still so much grief over what the lost dream was of 3HO, which you saw earlier. It brings up a lot of feeling for me because there was something so beautiful in the initial intention.

[00:39:19] And the second gen, I don't think really gets that the first before me, the generation before me and mine, there was such an, I'm sure you guys felt this. You were going to make the world a better place. There's something so invigorating and enlivening about that. And then to not just have it not work, but to realize it was all a lie. It's the opposite. It's the opposite. Not even that, it's the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very, very hard pill to swallow.

[00:39:49] It hurts your soul. I had a text message from a friend I went to high school with who knew me and I had mentioned what we were doing and she said, no, it's not for me. And we still remain friendly. She watched the documentary and she texted me. She goes, it's too bad he used his intelligence for that. And I thought, wow, that's such a good way of putting it. Like this could have been original. It could have been something that actually came through on its promise.

[00:40:16] And they actually went and found good people to propagate their evil. Yes. And what I found amazing about you guys is that you had the wherewithal to keep a poker face and prepare your departure. Like I would have never had that. I mean, I just, I couldn't, I thought that was just so utterly brilliant. And there were casualties before us. That's why we knew we saw the playbook and we knew we were going to be on the other

[00:40:45] end of the playbook. Because you did that, you were able to really have evidence and things like that against him. And I wish I didn't have it in me. I mean, really between the years before 3HO and then 3HO, I mean, I was really kind of a walking zombie at that point. And, you know, I think people are hoping my next book is like, she triumphed and life got better. And it's like, life was... It's hard trying to heal these things.

[00:41:14] And you're trying to survive and you don't have the luxury of therapy or understanding what happened to you. And, you know, I just have a lot of compassion for those of us that have had really broken families and chaotic upbringings. It is damn hard to have a life after that and be in an adult world when you feel so young inside. Even after leaving, I had 3HO people see me in public and scream that I was a whore and

[00:41:42] a lesbian and, you know, a homewrecker and just, you know, awful stuff. But, and then there was this rumor that Yogi Bhajan had goons. You don't want Yogi Bhajan's goons to get after you. I'm like, who are they? And what does that look like? You know, so I always knew that I would write about it, but I knew I'd have to be older to kind of have landed in a place.

[00:42:07] But a little bit culty to me is an exquisite compendium of like everything to do with cults. I don't know how many people in a cult would read it, but it sure will help people not get in cults. And it will sure help those who love them to know how to be because my mode against 3HO has been kind of attack mode. And I was reading in your book about don't be confrontational. I've been super confrontational because I'm still so damn mad.

[00:42:36] Like it just, it infuriates me when awful people get away with it and awful people are still perpetuating. And, you know, that's what's happening in my opinion with 3HO and Kundalini Yoga. And it's also, I would say, a real disservice when celebrities participate like Russell Brand and Courtney Love who funded Golden Bridge, you know, all kinds of celebrities, even Alicia

[00:43:04] Keys, who I think is really striving to be a very conscious, intentional person. But they're involved and then maybe they get the taste that things have gone sour. God, I wish they would say something, you know, I wish they would address it. But again, we're not allowed to be human and messy. So you just want to distance yourself and say nothing. So there's so many conversations that I wish were being had and so much more that I wish

[00:43:28] was being spoken about because I despise this organization for how they've harmed people. And I believe they are actively still doing that and making millions of dollars in the meantime. So it's hard to be with that, like Epstein and Harvey Weinstein, or they get caught and they just off themselves rather than ever, you know, or Ghislaine Maxwell and her nice little upgraded prison cell. I mean, what are we doing? What are we doing?

[00:43:56] Even the, you know, Rose McGowan and Virginia Jufre and being told you're crazy and being told, you know, you must be a loose woman still with Gloria Steinem passing. It's just so present to me. We're in a regression cycle, you know, it feels like. All right, everybody, let's pause there and hear from our sponsors.

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[00:48:33] And that was a word from our sponsors. Let's get back to the show. They're not incentivized to do it. In fact, they know they have to go through more pain in order to do the right thing. And that's an inconvenience. It's an inconvenience. And it's more comfortable to stay silent. We didn't even talk about how you got into a car and almost got trafficked. Yeah. That was awful. Crazy. Awful experience. Yeah. And that was me saying, I deserve a silver lining on my day.

[00:49:03] I bet he's a nice guy. I'll get in the car. I've been told my whole life, don't get in a car with a stranger. But again, you're not operating. I mean, I don't want to say I wasn't operating with a full deck, but really, in a way, you're not. You don't have all the pieces of personal holiness. Well, you were a child. You were a child. Just to put it in context for you, you were out of your cult at the age before I'd even joined mine. Yeah.

[00:49:30] So you had experienced a lot of what I, by age 25, I took my first training at 26, 27. Okay. Yeah. I mean, getting someone when they're a teenager, you're still, I was reading all kinds of books, the I Ching and Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand. I heard that. Ayn Rand. All kinds of books on, I was looking for, I used to say, I want to figure out a way to organize my thoughts about why I'm on the planet. That's what I was looking for. You were a seeker. I was a seeker and seekers are vulnerable.

[00:50:00] And I've become very adverse to woo-woo language. I was so invested in it for so long. Now, the only thing I can say now is that I know nothing and that I'm, I'm willing to learn and I'm hopeful. But in my twenties, thirties and forties, I, oh yeah, there's a life after death and oh yeah, reincarnation's a thing. I wanted to be so certain. Right. And that goes back to as a child, I had such a fear of death.

[00:50:27] I had such a huge fear of dying because I couldn't understand it. I wanted to be able to know how to understand it. But there's a phrase that Sarah and I have in our house, mostly pertaining to me. I'm at my worst when I'm most certain. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I envy that you have the satisfaction that Keith Raniere is in prison. I wish we could have had that with Yogi Bhajan. I hate that he got away with it.

[00:50:56] I hate that he did all that harm and nobody ever that we tried. Cause I mean, his doctors colluded with him when Pamela Dyson and Kate felt did their lawsuit. They got him out of depositions by saying his health was a problem. All these enablers, all these people helping a guy be a monster. Right. And they still believe, they still think he's a saint and I'm the horrible person. Oh my God.

[00:51:23] I went to Española a couple of years ago and I met with the person who was then the CEO of 3HO. And we had lunch and she said, you're like the Sasquatch of 3HO. People aren't sure if you really exist. What a bizarre thing to hear. But apparently, I mean, I had really scary moments when I first started talking of retribution. Because Sikhs, well, and I don't want to say Sikhs.

[00:51:52] 3HO people are very militaristic and they have weapons caches. And I was taking a walk one day. And do you guys remember in Back to the Future when the Liberians are coming in the white van with the plutonium? Did you guys watch that movie? A white van was coming down the street and I'm like, it's the Liberians. Someone's going to open up and just gun me down. But that fear of being harmed. And I've been publicly vilified twice on social media.

[00:52:21] It's not fun. It really foresaw my book because I was like, do I really want to invite that possibility? So I do envy that you guys were able to take your predator down and see justice done because it's just not, for a lot of us, it's just not a possible outcome. No, a lot of people don't get that. And I applaud you that you and Mark Vicente, you guys teamed up and were able. I just think it's heroic.

[00:52:50] And I'm really proud there's some instances where that's the outcome. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we were really lucky to have the judge that we had. Also, Keith didn't have the, I guess, doctors, et cetera. He didn't have the infrastructure to protect him. Oftentimes, in many of our interviews, the systems that are designed to protect us often protect the perpetrator. And because the perpetrators effectively infiltrated them and Keith had not done that.

[00:53:20] Maybe he had in the Albany area to a certain extent, but the justice system was in the southern part of New York. So it was out of his jurisdiction. So we had a lot of things that worked out. Yeah. One of the most devious aspects of that for us was 3HL hired a compassionate reconciliation team to come in. Are you guys familiar with compassionate reconciliation?

[00:53:43] So it's working outside like a prison model as a way to have victims heal with their perpetrators through forgiveness and understanding. Oh, okay.

[00:54:24] I feel like a person's lived experience is the term. And I need to respect the cult members whose lived experience with Yogi Bhajan was positive. And then it became this thing of like a woman sharing her story and the person coming out going, well, that wasn't my lived experience. So, you know, it just was never going to work. I felt it failed terribly. The women were victimized and re-traumatized in that process. I bet.

[00:54:52] And you're getting your paycheck from the Sirius Things Bob Corporation. So how can you be unbiased? And how can you really be working for us when they're paying you and you know the outcome they want? So it was just a huge failure. There was a lot they did that looked like good PR. And it was actually very hard. In fact, even their reparation program, they didn't include people who had signed their homes over, people who had worked for free for decades.

[00:55:20] One woman who gave her million dollar inheritance to Yogi Bhajan. And that's how he got the land in New Mexico where the events are held and all the multimillion dollar properties they have now. A lot of people were excluded from any kind of payout. So they're the worst. They're just the worst. And, you know, I don't know how it's going to go from here if they'll all just continue along.

[00:55:45] But I did also really want to emphasize that 3HO is not Sikhism and that many Sikhs are very upset about the conflation of Yogi Bhajan introducing Hinduism and other things into the 3HO mix. Ayurvedic medicine. You know, he was raised with a Hindu mother and a Sikh father.

[00:56:08] And it really does a disservice to Sikhs all over the world when people think that what they're seeing in 3HO is a Sikh because it's not. No. So it's a deep subject. There's a lot of. Yes. We haven't even got into the corruption of the business structures and the corporation soul and all the ways that they have been able to avert paying taxes.

[00:56:34] The fact that he was, we believe, running drugs in the 70s and that he might have supplied arms to Sikhs in India to kill Indira Gandhi. Like it's just the guy was operating corruptly on so many levels. On so many levels. Yeah. It's hard to do in one podcast. And your book covers so much that we could barely even touch on. And just wanted to reiterate. Again, it was hard, but it was very detailed.

[00:57:03] And I think that anyone who especially grew up in that era will appreciate the musical references and the cultural and political and, you know, all the things. And then people who are really interested in the group itself, like how the, you know, the rules about sex and, you know, women. I didn't know that women had to have an enema, an enema before sex.

[00:57:25] Like the level of control of wardrobe, food, sex, communication, everything is, you know, next level. And that's all laid out in the book that I think. Typical. Yeah. Typical too. You know, there's nothing really surprises me anymore. Yeah. The enema. It doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they say that trauma people like boundaries, right? That's what the 12 step program does. They give you boundaries, something to push against so you can feel where you begin and where you end.

[00:57:55] And cult leaders really masterfully exploit that because you feel somehow, oh, I have, I have containment now. I don't feel out of control. I know that I have to get up at this time and read five prayers and eat this and do that. And so it gives you this false feeling of containment. And I think that's why so many just, they feel safe for the first time in their life. And it takes a while, hopefully, to realize you picked a toxic container.

[00:58:25] Yeah. You guys even had a fart protocol, which I did. Was that unbelievable? Oh, yeah. An awesome meeting to discuss curry farts while you're trying to do Breath of Fire. I think I like the fart protocol and I'm going to initiate it. I'm going to bring it into our home. Why don't you start with yourself? No, but basically, Nippy, this is what you have to do from now on. Actually, in our family, when someone needs to fart, we say, I have to take a phone call. Leave the room.

[00:58:53] But as I said in the meeting, don't come right back in because you'll bring it in your slipstream. Yeah. It's called walking the dog. Just have a pause. Yeah. Take a pause. Those are important rules. Oh, my gosh. Well, just a couple of questions to end on. Is there anything that you want to say in terms of the correlation with the two abusive systems that you experienced, the troubled teen industry and Omega House and 3HO, in terms of when you

[00:59:22] look at those, how your autonomy was broken down? And I guess, what have you seen in the parallels to how young people can become so susceptible to coercive control and grooming by charismatic leaders in those systems? The tragedy for the young people is that their parents are making the decision. And if you've gotten caught and you've gone to a juvenile detention, you're usually a ward of the court. So it's really going to be up to... That's tough. Wow. How do you bring light to those kinds of things?

[00:59:52] Like Outward Bound. I used to be a big fan of Outward Bound until I knew somebody that went on it. Do you guys know about that? Oh, yeah. That was huge when I was a kid. Yeah. They take the job. So there was abuses going on there. And how do you have watchkeepers within your organization to make sure lines aren't being crossed? I mean, nowadays, there's so much more information. There's so much more awareness. Yeah. But even still, in recent times in 3HO, there's teachers having sex with students and such.

[01:00:22] The teenage thing breaks my heart because you really are... You're both at the fullest sense of yourself you might ever have. And you're filled with desire and excitement to express who you are as a person. So when you get squint... Like I've wondered, because I went on to have pretty much strictly heterosexual relationships. I don't know what my sexuality would have been if I hadn't gotten so slammed. I totally support any kind of sexuality.

[01:00:50] But I still can feel... A therapist said to me, well, I was telling her how I disassociate during sex. And I feel like I'm up on the ceiling. And as you know, I got caught opening my eyes and my mother was looking at me. And my therapist said, oh, you've assumed the position of your mother. Oh, damn. The judge. And so those imprints are so deep.

[01:01:16] And I've sometimes felt really dismayed about like, do you ever really clear and get rid of those things? But things like that. Like I'm 66 years old. And I'm like, I don't know how that... I felt so free. My journal at that time about being bisexual was so free and open. And then I got shamed by lesbians saying bisexuals were people that couldn't commit. And can't make a decision. And there's no such thing as bisexuality.

[01:01:44] I got slammed in a bar with my illegal ID. I got slammed by a group of women. And so both sides were coming at me. I would just say... We know it's like to have both sides coming at you. Yeah. It's recreational outrage in a lot of ways. I guess so. I mean, I think what's hard for the teens is what is the roadmap for teenagers to try to find their way? Especially most will not have the resources for therapy. Most will not.

[01:02:14] So books, listening to something. I wish I had a better answer. But I mean, it really is the work of my life still to try to come back to a sense of wholeness of that girl in the meadow at 11 that felt connected to everything. You know? I mean, I guess life is the grist for the mill. You know?

[01:02:38] Like Ram Dass said, like it's just we're here for whatever is going to be our growth and evolution. And shit has to happen for there to be growth and evolution. Look at what you guys have done. Look at what you guys have done with what happened to you. So tremendous flip side to pain and suffering and the horrific branding that you went through. You've taken that and now you're assisting and helping so many people. So as are you. Thank you. I mean, I guess that's what you can do.

[01:03:08] Try to help the next generation not make the same mistakes. But gurus will always morph into look. Look how different Keith Raniere was from a Yogi Bhajan or a Rajneesh. Sure. And then you have the next one and the next one. Or it's around weight loss, like the way down lady who I don't know. Anybody did that calls with her hairdo. I mean, that alone would have scared me to death. We just had her son on our podcast, Michael Shamblin Black. And he was also he was born into it.

[01:03:38] But yeah. Anything that you that we didn't ask you that we that you want to say? I want to get off your chest since your first podcast. So I know we got to round it out. You know, I'm really just struck by the I guess I have a wave of dismay happening with Gloria Steinem's passing. The Epstein file still not being out. That misogyny is just alive and well. And that I think. This is I wish women would be more loyal to women.

[01:04:07] I wish women would stand up for women more like in the Yogi Bhajan cult. All these women worshiping a man and then women hurting other women. Maybe that would be a direction is like to ask women to really honor one another. Because the parallels. One of the things that breaks my heart is, you know, Pamela's left in November of 84. Same as me. We were both trying to let people know what was going on. The mathematical cost of harm for 40 more years.

[01:04:36] The damage happened because people wouldn't listen. How do you make people listen? How do you break through when it's so concretized in the organization that if you're speaking out against him, you're slandering a saint, right? They're so smart about building in the framework that makes dissension impossible. If there's any number one red flag for cults, it's that truth and dissension are forbidden.

[01:05:02] That's the number one thing that would maybe stop you from going in. But I'm just currently, you know, one of the things I'm shifting to is I'm going to be writing more publicly and blogging because we've had the private group, which has been really powerful. But it's private. So all those stories, people weren't ready to share. So, but I also wonder how long do I want to, how long am I in this fight? Is this a lifelong thing? Or do you reclaim your life at some point?

[01:05:32] Same boat. That's a great question. You know, I have a kind of maybe an unpopular answer to that question. One I've kind of come to reluctantly. Things change through force. I just think the way things have changed historically have been through force and whoever has control over the apparatus of force normally dictates the rules. And what got, I think, these women into these positions is coercion, which is a form of force.

[01:06:02] And then they're shamed into submission. That's a form of force. And another force has to get it out. It doesn't necessarily have to be might, but often might is what people respond to in a kind of male-dominated culture and society. And this person, Bajuan and Keith and all these people are very good at subverting that and making it look like they're the victims all the time. And how do you expose that? You have to keep doing this and you have to keep getting the story out. And that has to be your apparatus of force. Otherwise, then it's violence.

[01:06:33] And then once it's violence, it's chaos. So it's, it's, and you have to keep the conversation going. It's not like... It's a good question. When do you stop? Like when did, when have you thrown your punch? Like you wrote the book, then what, you know? Well, then maybe the book becomes the thing that you promote and say, listen, this is a story. This is a wisdom. This is something. And then, you know, until there's a better...

[01:06:53] Look, education is obviously the better way, but I think a lot of the systems that we have right now in education have been hijacked to not necessarily highlight these stories in the way they need to. Yeah. I remember listening to Mike Rinder on the Scientology show and he talked about, it's almost impossible to reach the people that are in it. Right. And what is that thing that shifts in anybody?

[01:07:19] Because let me tell you, a lot of 3HO people watched a lot of bad behavior by Yogi Bhajan and it wasn't enough to shift them. And I guess it's, they're not really the target maybe. Maybe the target is awareness for other people. Awareness for other people to not go in. But when you hear people say, he didn't rape me. Oh my God. Like that is a justification. Yeah. It's just a shocking way of thinking. So yeah, it's important work.

[01:07:48] And I do think they'll always morph and change. And we don't even know what the new cult leaders will look like because they're going to be different. They're not going to be anything we've recognized before. But the things you guys delineate in your book will be the same. Absolutely. Those things will be the same. So people knowing that and having that awareness, boy, I wish I had that. And the shadow side of human behavior is in all of us. Any one of us could be that. But if we could start conversing with them rather than canceling them, we have an opportunity to grow.

[01:08:18] But we can have puritanical ethics and do that. And that's where America, I feel like America just swings from Barack Obama to Donald Trump. Right. And then we'll swing again. But why can't we ever find that messier gray? To me, that's the more difficult part for humans to hold. Because nothing is black and white. There's money in it. The incentives and the money. That's what I mean. Nobody resists the spoils of capitalism.

[01:08:48] And black and white is the domain of the adolescent mind, which we can see every day on display on the news. Yeah. So this has been just incredible. Love that. Thank you so much. That was so great chatting with you. Thank you. So great. We're going to go do Kids Pick Up. Please read this book, Deviant Daughter by Suzanne Jordan. It's so good. And I wish you all the best with your advocacy and continuing to get the truth out there.

[01:09:18] And, you know, people will wake up when they're ready to wake up. And I believe this will help. Let's hope so. Thank you for your work as well. It's good to be on the same team. Thank you. Totally. Pleasure to meet you. Yeah. Much love to you both. Much love. All right. Bye-bye.

[01:09:53] All right, everybody. Hope you enjoyed these episodes. Let us know what you thought of the book in our comments on Instagram or Patreon, wherever you're listening, or Spotify. Thank you for supporting our podcast. And please go check out, if you have the opportunity, of her YouTube video, which we will post in our show notes where she actually confronts him live in front of everyone. It's so good. Deuces, everybody.

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[01:11:17] Your local bookstore or library can order it too. Share the love and spread the culty wisdom. Thanks for listening, and catch you next time on Season 9. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy, and our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsmore. Writing and admin by Sandra Namoto and social media marketing by Eric Skrasinski and Brooke Keen. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.

[01:11:53] Kia ora. I'm Anke Richter, the founder of Decult, a groundbreaking cult awareness conference happening again this October in Aotearoa, New Zealand. We're going to have two days of powerful conversations about healing and justice with survivors, experts, lawyers, therapists, and authors, and we're live streaming them around the world. Decult will make a huge difference for people who've come out of cults.

[01:12:20] Join us from 24th to 25th of October in Christchurch or online for Decult 2026 Voices of Courage. Go to decult.net to register now.