Bron & Denai Johnson on Life Inside NXIVM’s Vancouver Center (Part 2)

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[00:02:08] All right, everybody. Welcome back to part two with Bron and Danae Johnson. If you didn't listen to part one that dropped a couple of weeks ago, please go back and listen as this one will not make sense. Enjoy.

[00:02:34] Well, everybody, welcome back to our special two-parter with the Hot Johnson team, Danae and Bron. How's my radio voice today? I was just going to say it. I was hot. And you're like, hello, everyone. It sounded actually quite good. You're the expert. So I... Can you segue into us? Yeah. I mean, it's a little rough for me, but... Where we left off is Danae was talking about last week about how sad it was because she'd had this great connection with Nancy and Lauren, which I didn't know about.

[00:03:01] I didn't know that you'd had that type of connection with especially Lauren at V-Week, which is probably the beginning of... I mean, I don't know if she knew that she was grooming you, but set you up, certainly, for what came later. Yeah. Yes. I mean, where do you want me to start? You want me to start? Well, let's see. The DOS combo? So let's see. So let's just recap for a second. So you've been doing Ethos. You've been doing ESP. You're doing Janess, which I think is important to mention. What were you getting out of Janess? Because Janess is a bit of the foundation for DOS.

[00:03:30] I feel like, to this day, Janess is the thing that fucked with my head the most. Oh, really? Yes. Tell us more. It was very from the... I mean, it was Keith's fucked up ideas about men and women in relationships. Mm-hmm. It was all about how, like, you know, women are inherently monogamous. Men at their core just want to sleep with everyone.

[00:03:56] And so from that point forward, I was always kind of like, well, then why are men in relationships? Like, are all men just lying to themselves? If this is... If Keith is telling us this is the core of every man wants to just sleep with everyone, then, like, this is a lie. Like, our society is just, what is this? I feel like that messed with my head the most. Yeah. Interesting you bring that up because I...

[00:04:24] That was also something that was one of the core takeaways for me, which in some ways was helpful to understand the male drive or whatever. But when I talked to Nippy about that, he was like, I never really got that. So I think the Jeunesse curriculum as it was taught to women was a bit different than how it was presented to men. So the takeaway consistently and the first thing people have a problem with is exactly what you just said.

[00:04:45] But my interpretation and what I feel like most of the guys' interpretations of it was, is this is the wiring of us and this is how we're wired. But it isn't a foundation for us to go do that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's what I took away from that curriculum. Right. And the women all interpret it as like, so what are we supposed to do? Let our men go fuck everyone? Yeah. And that we're going, no, that's not what we're hearing. Meanwhile, Keith is like, yes. Yeah. I'm going to plant the seed. Yeah, Mr. Subliminal. Yeah, yeah. Go for it.

[00:05:15] Go for it. Yeah. Well, and I mean, the way I look at it all now is like, okay, we can talk about men having this hard wiring or whatever. But to me, I look at both men and women and it's like monogamous long-term relationships can be challenging for both of us in different ways. Like whether it's men, I mean, I have female friends who say, well, I have that same struggle. If I'm in a monogamous partnership, I want to sleep with lots of people or like have that underlying desire.

[00:05:43] And, you know, for a lot of people, it's just like I've talked to a lot of women where it's like, you know, the excitement, the mental, emotional desire to have that with more men is maybe prevalent. So I feel like it was very focused around like what men want and us kind of just being more understanding and adaptive to that. Right. But it didn't really look at like just human behavior also as women, how we also may have desires.

[00:06:14] We might get bored with just one person. Well, also he's designing the curriculum through his filter. Well, that's exactly it. We should have been such a red flag for all of us. It was. It was for my friend in California. She's like, look, I thought the curriculum was fine. I love the people. She's like, I just don't believe in a man. Writing a women's organization. And they used to joke about it. Like, oh, isn't this hilarious? Like Pam, Kay Fritz and Nancy and even Lauren would be like, you know, isn't it so funny that this is the first women's organization designed and run by a man?

[00:06:44] Like, that's so great. Like, what an honor that we get to learn about ourselves through this lens. Yeah. Fuck off. Yeah. So you did Janice for how long? I don't even know. The whole thing was a blur. I feel like I started Nixxiom when I was like 27 and maybe wrapped up around, I don't know, like 20. Well, we left in 2017. Okay. So we left in 2017. And I also remember that was the same year because it was. Do you want to tell me?

[00:07:11] I'll let you tell the story of how you heard about us. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. Buckle up. I haven't heard this. Okay. Oh, yeah. So I wasn't talking to you about it at this time. Yeah. So I was actually, I was a coach at that point. Like I had like a, what was it? A yellow sash. Yellow sash. A yellow sash. So you weren't, you would just become a coach, right? And so I was going through some challenging stuff.

[00:07:36] I had some like crazy stuff go down with a relationship I was really struggling with. And I didn't really have any other support systems at that time. Like in terms of like counseling, like Nixxiom was my predominant place that I was going to for support. And to work through shit. Yeah. Yeah. So when this like catastrophic event happened in my relationship, Nixxiom, like my coach, people within the company were where I went for support.

[00:08:06] And I remember you and I having a conversation and you were like, so I know you're really into your self-development and your personal growth. I'm a part of something right now that is like expediting my growth. And I feel like you might be interested in it. So I was like, okay, like, yes, you're speaking my language. So I remember you and I went for a walk and you were like, so yeah, I'm part of this like

[00:08:31] badass bitch underground bootcamp that is, yeah, all about like really helping you, you know, achieve the things in life that you really want. And essentially like helping kind of like global movement, like as women kind of like forming this like coalition underground, almost like the female Freemasons of like being able to potentially affect big world change. Sounds about right. Yeah. And I was like, okay, sweet. Like this all sounds dope.

[00:09:00] And then you're like, okay, but I need a piece of collateral. Wow. And I was like, what? And she's like, yeah, I need something like this is so top secret that I need you to give me something or share something with me that basically will prevent you from sharing this information. And I was like, okay, red flag. That's a little bit fucking weird. But also, and you also said it wasn't, I was like, is this part of Nixxiom? And you were like, no, it's something separate. But I was like, bullshit.

[00:09:30] I was like, this has got to be part of Nixxiom. At that point, I still thought it was. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Do you remember what month this was? I'm just trying to figure out if I had, it must've been pre-brand. I feel like this was summer. It was summertime. I think. Well, summertime's when it all broke up. Okay. I don't know. Actually, you know what? I'd be able to tell by looking at my photos because we did a video. Okay. Yeah. It's in a lockbox on my phone. Yeah. Because I had to give it to the FBI later. Oh, wow. Remember we talked about that? Yeah. Yeah. So it's beginning of 2017. Yes. Beginning of 2017.

[00:09:58] I'm guessing it's around February. It had to have been. Because it was before, it was before I think that I'd been branded. Or at least before I knew what the brand was. Yes. Because. Our first conversation was before you had been branded. Yeah. Yeah. Because I remember, and just so you know, some backstory, I'm not sure I've ever told you this. It was Lauren who suggested you. Yeah. And, because she was my master. Yes. Sorry, Craig. This is really weird. Craig's our engineer. He's like, what? Yeah, what? So she was telling me what to do.

[00:10:28] And I remember thinking, like, I love you. And I think you're great. I just felt like it was, it was so intense. And I was like, I don't know. And I knew what you were going through. And I was like, I don't think this is good timing. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, I was protective of you. And she was like, no, I think it's perfect for her. And we'll help her. And I was like, well, oh, in the same way, I was excited about Lauren's help. I was excited about you having Lauren's help. Yeah. So if I recall, you shared, we made a video collateral right then and there on the seawall. Yeah. And you shared something private with me. Yeah.

[00:10:57] And we sent it to her. Yeah. And she gave approval for me to tell you about it. Yes. And I told you about it. Yes. And then you told me about it. And you were like, so I would be your master. You would be my slave. And I was like, do you remember what I said? I was like, this sounds like some weird sex cult shit. Did you really say that? Oh, I don't remember that. I was like, who's like master and slave? Like right away, my mind went to like sex. Like BDSM. Yeah. Like BDSM. Now that I know more about it, because people have come to me and said, by the way,

[00:11:26] because I think that Keith took from the BDSM community to create this. Yeah. One person called it out right away when they heard it. Yeah. They're like, those are all term, because I didn't know anything about that. Right. Oh, yeah. And so then when they told me there, I was like, oh shit. And then I found out later that Keith was into that. Okay. Okay. Yeah. In Albany, he was like part of that. And his nickname in the community apparently was Queef. You know that? This is a rumor, unsubstantiated, don't know. Anyway. So you had heard about this and you're like, well, that sounds like sex cult weird shit. Yeah. Yeah. And then what did I say?

[00:11:55] But then I will say like, I feel like everything within the company, they did such a great job of normalizing, comparing it to things in the world that we do accept. So I was like, that like master slave terminology sounds really fucked up to me. And Lauren was like, you know, it's the same as in like a karate center. You know, your dojo or your whatever is your master. So just to go back for a second, I told you about it. You thought it was weird. And if I recall though, you said no. Yes. You said I'm not, that sounds too weird for me. And you didn't think you could commit. I was just, I was getting alarm bells.

[00:12:25] I was like, my gut was just like turning. I was like, the master, the master slave thing was really off-putting to me. The, when you told me we were getting like a tattoo or a brand. Yeah. I didn't know what it was going to be. I just thought we were getting like a cool tattoo. So that part I was like, okay, sweet. I'm going to have to get a tattoo with a bunch of babes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm down to get inked up. Sure. Why not? That part didn't weird me out at all. I didn't know it was going to be a brand of Keith's initials. Oh, of course not. None of us knew that. You know? Yeah. And then what were the other ones?

[00:12:55] Master, slave and a vow of obedience for life. Oh, the chain. Oh yeah. You eventually choose a necklace. A choker that you wear. That was also a little bit fucking weird. See, that didn't bother me. And for me, just like calling someone my master. I was like, that was my biggest thing. I was like, there's nobody, literally no one in my life who I would call my master. I am my own master. Nice. Like that's how I always felt. Yeah. And that was the whole thing with Nixxiom as a whole.

[00:13:21] Like I do feel very bad for the people who went into this organization and felt like Keith was their God. Like I remember going to V Week and there was a man who got up and spoke to Keith about how he pretty much was his God. Like it was none of, Nixxiom was never that. I still had my family, my friends, myself. I had, I think that was the difference for me was like I had my. Autonomy. I had my autonomy and a strong sense of self going into it.

[00:13:46] So with any form of self-development that I've encountered over the years, whether it's books, retreats, Nixxiom, it's like you evaluate which things resonate and make sense to you and you apply those things and the rest you're like. So there was always some weird kind of culty shit about Nixxiom, but I was like, whatever. Like. You do you. You do you. Yeah. Um, so yes, I did. I did say no at first and then Lauren. I got Lauren on the phone. I said, would you talk to Lauren? Yeah.

[00:14:17] Okay. So before you tell that, I'll tell my side of things. So when you said no, I have to tell you, I think I've told you this since, but I was so relieved. You did tell me that. Yeah. I was like, oh, phew. Like I did what I, cause I, I had pressure to recruit, right? And I was supposed to get six. And just the fact that you felt that pressure and that relief when I said no was so telling. I was like, thank God. And I, and I remember telling her and I, and now, and when you were talking just now, I also remembered, and I don't think I had language for this at the time because I didn't have the college education I have now. Yeah.

[00:14:45] I knew when people were like bought in and kind of like would do anything. And when they were just doing what you did, which is like, I'm going to take the tools. I have my autonomy. I'm going to put them in my life. So I think I knew like, you're not going to, you're not going to, you're just not as, you're not as invested as, as some of the other people. Yeah. And Lauren was like, I think she was so in, in at that point. She had no sense of that. Like she suggested that I recruit this actress. I did a Hallmark movie with at the time called Jenna Kramer. Do you know her? She's like a, she's a country singer.

[00:15:14] She's like on One Tree Hill. She suggested. Yeah. I was working with her and she's like, oh my God, she'd be great for Janass and eventually Doss. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, she's not even done an intensive. You know what I mean? Like I had a sense that like you had to be bought in and be on board before hearing about something like Master Slate. Like she was out of touch with that. Right. You know? Oh yeah. So when you said no, I was like, oh thank God. And then she's like, well, let me talk to her. I said, well, I thought you were supposed to be my secret master and she wasn't supposed to know who you were.

[00:15:43] She's like, well, I got an exception from my master. Okay. So Keith really wanted you in. Really? Well, that was another one of my red flags was, do you remember when I told you, Bron, about the time Keith poked me on Facebook? Dude, that's his power move. Yeah. Major poke. He poked everyone on Facebook. I have so many people have told me they poked him on Facebook. Why is Keith poking me on Facebook? He's just fucking gross. It was so weird. Yeah. Okay. So he poked you. When was that in regards to all this?

[00:16:10] I feel like that was like before or after V week. Okay. And you did V week just before Doss. So the year before Doss. Yeah. So 16. Yeah. So you were on his radar as of 16. Yeah. Was that the V week where we had like a big drum circle down at the beach and it was like drums and glow sticks and stuff? No. Bit of a rave vibe. No, no, no, we didn't do that. So maybe you were there in 15. Maybe. Yeah. Can't fully remember. Okay. So Lauren says to me, let me talk to her. Yeah. And Lauren gets you on the phone.

[00:16:40] I think I was on the call with her and you. I think I was allowed to listen to it so I could learn. You want to know what I really actually remember? What? Lauren was, we're talking on the phone. And she's like, I got to pee. And she just like whips down her pants. Like we were doing like a video call and she's like, we're going to all be, what did she say? Like, we're all going to be sisters or something like that. We're all just going to see each other naked. And like, she made some sort of comment like that. And she just like whipped down her pants and was like peeing. On the video call? Yeah. Did you see her peeing? Yeah. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:10] Yeah. Huh. I don't remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And she had her bald cat. I'm not referring to her actual body part, but she did have her bald pussy. Yeah. She did have a bald pussy. Yeah. She had a hairless cat. No, she had that Austin Powers cat. Yeah. She did. Yeah. It was an actual cat. Yeah. Just to be clear for our audience. Yeah. We do not know if she was shaved right. No, actually we do know. Okay. We do know she had full bush because he'd like the full bush for that extra tangy flavor. Okay. Keep it social, Sarah.

[00:17:40] He did like a full bush. John's face. Broad's face. Sorry, Craig. Thank you. This is not a normal work day for Craig here at Wade Productions. Not a normal work day. Not too much. So she peed. What did she say to convince you to do DOS? I think I just had such a solid relationship with Lauren. You trusted her probably more than you trusted me. I'd had more direct experiences with her.

[00:18:07] Like I don't think you and I had had a ton of one-on-one before that in terms of like coaching together or EMs. Like I had had a lot of, not a lot, but I mean a good considerable amount of time with Lauren when I was at V Week. Yeah. And between her and her mom, I just really felt like they were really heart centered women who also were really fucking good at what they did in terms of coaching.

[00:18:33] And were, I had a direct experience of how effective, like literally transformed things in my life. So I had, I think that's the biggest thing with Nixxiom as well. It's like that whole like frog and boiling water analogy of like, you know, it's the slow burn over time and the frog will stay in the water. It's like my experience of being in Nixxiom was that you get to just trust the zaniness of it. Yeah. And I had enough of those experiences where it was like, okay, maybe this is a little out

[00:19:02] of my comfort zone, but it actually ended up being really helpful and really beneficial. Yeah. And I don't know, personally, I've just also been the type of person that I've always felt like the way mainstream society does life, I'm like, nah, there's gotta be more. Like who says that just because everyone does it this way is the right way. So I've always been kind of open to like, okay, let's test out, let's try some different approaches. Yeah. You know?

[00:19:28] Which is so great as a way to live, but also in these contexts can make you vulnerable to totally cons. And I'm, I am very grateful. I feel like why my situation, why ultimately I did end up like backing out at the end of it was because I did have that at the end of the day, strong sense of self and intuition that still said, this is not right. Yes. For, for a woman who did not have that, um, it would have been, yeah. Yeah. Not a good situation.

[00:19:57] So before we get to that moment where you pulled back, so you said yes on the phone with Lauren. Yes. And then, and then what happened after that? Yeah. So I said, yes, I still feel like I had like bad gut feelings about it, but I think I was like, yeah, why not? Like buckle up. Let's just see where she goes. Why not? Um, and then, I mean, there were some like exercises in there that like, you know, a whole readiness thing, like having to have my fricking phone by me all the time. That was annoying.

[00:20:27] You know, if anytime Sarah messages me, I have to respond within one minute. It was, yeah, it was a little, whatever. Um, but for me, the real, the real shift happened when you messaged me again and you were like, okay, we need another piece of collateral. Right. And at that point I was like, and I think I even said to you, I was like, we, we, we, yeah, you were like, no. And I was like, what the fuck is this, Sarah?

[00:20:53] I was like this whole, I literally have goosebumps right now as I'm talking about it because I'm like, I was like, this whole company has always been about like self, uh, interdependence and just like joy. Like that was the whole like messaging interdependence and joy. Why am I being blackmailed? Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah. And what did I say? You're, I think you were like, well, you were like new into it. So like, I didn't really know. I didn't know. You didn't know. So like, you were like, well, let me go.

[00:21:22] You kept going back to Lauren. Yes. Who's coaching me. To give me answers. And I just like was pointing things out to you and you were like, I felt like your wheels were kind of turning where you were like, yeah, you're right. Like that doesn't really make sense. You were calling out inconsistencies that I wasn't willing to do with Lauren because of our relationship or that I had, I was feeling, but couldn't articulate. Yeah. You know, and you had, you had less on the line. Like I, I was, I was too like in the structure of things. I wasn't allowed to call things out like that. Totally.

[00:21:52] And you were calling things out in a way that I was like similar to how I was saying, like, don't go to Albany. I was like, yeah, you go girl. Like you asked those questions. Like you were my voice in a way. Yeah. You know what I mean? I was like, thank you for answering that. Well, it confirmed your morals. Yeah. It confirmed what was going on for me internally, but I could say Denae wants to know. And meanwhile, I was also stalling. Yes. On getting your collateral. Yes. Well, I wasn't going to give it. Yeah. Yeah. I was like after the first one, I'm not giving you guys shit. Yeah. Like that was, that was when I was out.

[00:22:21] And so I didn't go very far into it because it was like, as soon as that was up, I was like, no. And that was the thing that I said to you was, I was like, what are you going to do with this collateral? And you're like, we're using it to keep you accountable to your word. Like the whole thing with DOS was about like, you have this goal. And as women, we're apparently too emotional that we don't follow through with our goals. So your master will be somebody that holds you accountable to your goal. So I was like, okay, so what happens if I want to leave?

[00:22:50] Are you going to share my collateral with the world? And you were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I was like, then what is the point of having this? Yeah. Like, how is that keeping me in? You're not going to share it. What is the threat here? Yeah. There's no point to it. That actually doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense. And that's what I saw. I was like, what are you doing with this collateral? Are you going to share it? If not, why do you keep needing more of it? That was actually an argument during the trial too. He was never going to release the collateral. Yeah. So then what's the point? And it turned out it was. Yeah. Sorry, Bron, were you going to say something?

[00:23:20] Well, I was going to ask if you had already mentioned what the first piece of collateral, I don't know if you want to share that. Not down. It's very personal. It's a personal thing. Well, I asked because I thought it was not true, or at least you said you, I remember. Mine wasn't true. Oh, that's what I'm thinking. So you wrote that in your book that the piece of collateral that you shared actually wasn't real. It was. Or parts of it. Parts of it were. Basically, I had to spill some secrets about my past, and I didn't really have much of a dirty past.

[00:23:49] So I had to embellish it. Yeah. No, mine was like things I'd done partying wise. And like, I made it worse to like that. The first time I wrote it down on a piece of paper, took a picture and I guess Lauren sent it to Keith and Keith was like, that's not bad enough for that. I just made it worse. Forgive me. I only brought it up because I thought that was the same for you. I thought you also had to make yours up. Just something that was embarrassing, right? Like, yeah. So that, just to backtrack for a second.

[00:24:17] And it's so crazy because we've never really talked about it in such detail. And I, I'm remembering now, I don't, and I don't remember, you don't remember what month this was where we were having these conversations, but it was around the time that, like, I think your questions were also planting seeds for me to leave. Yeah. Right? Well, you came back to me, you were like, I'm going to go try and figure out some of these answers. Yeah. And then I remember like a week, I didn't hear from you for like probably a week. And you said, you told me you were going to find answers.

[00:24:44] And then you and I had a call and you were like, my spidey senses are starting to get up. Like I'm starting to see and hear of some things that are making me feel kind of weird. And then I do remember at the end of it, like you thanking me because I feel like I recall you saying something to the effect of like, yeah, you were, you were in pretty deep and didn't really maybe see that some of that initially that some of that was what it was.

[00:25:14] And which makes sense to me. Like, I remember you saying like, literally like, you know, Lauren was your son's godmother and like, you know, your vows were made after Keith's words. Like you guys were in so deep where I was never in that deep. Yeah. So I feel like I saw it from like, and I don't know what your experience was, but like, that is how I interpret the whole thing. That's accurate.

[00:25:38] Was that you were in really deep and it seems like you felt in maybe internally like something was off. And I felt like I was able to like speak it out loud and be like, this is fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. Because exactly what you just said, I wasn't allowed to voice dissent in a way that you could because you didn't, you didn't have a center. Yeah. This podcast wouldn't exist without our fantastic, supportive, generous patrons. Come find us over on Patreon.

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[00:26:35] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we? That's the thing that a lot of people don't understand. Like I was a green sash. My next promotion, my growing in the company depended on the head of education, what happens to be Lauren's approval. Just, I think, really, really interesting about why you were able to see that. So your voice, just to recap what you missed, Nippy, I mean, Denae was able to voice some of my concerns. And because I remember I was like, similar to you, this is weird.

[00:27:05] I mean, the whole thing was weird. I said straight up to Lauren from the beginning, everything in my body is saying like, don't do this. And she's like, that's exactly how it should feel. You know? And I trust her in that because she's my mentor and my therapist and my best friend and the person in charge of any type of promotion that I may or may not have. And you probably also had enough of life experience as much like myself and many others where you were like, this is helpful. Like you guys, you know, you know, you're- There's 10 years of trust. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:27:33] And she, when I straight up said at the beginning, is Keith involved? Like, first of all, is, is there, is this just NXIVM? No, it's other people involved outside of NXIVM. Obviously it's overlap, but like nothing to do with, something to do with it, but it's not just NXIVM. Not true. Is there any men involved? No. Is Keith involved? No. Like she's straight up lied to me at all those things. And I completely trusted her that she lied to me about that. Yeah. But no, I do remember thanking you for asking those questions. What did you just say before?

[00:27:59] Because I was going to comment on, I was about to tangent before Nipi came in. I basically was just saying, I felt like you were, this was my perception that you were so deep into it that like, it was almost like I got, I got the sense at the time that you were so trusting of Lauren, that there was maybe like an internal part of you that was feeling like this is really weird and uncomfortable, but like you were just kind of like going with it. And I don't think initially when you and I first started that you had seen or heard enough

[00:28:29] where you were like questioning some of those things. And I feel like because I wasn't as deep in and I hadn't spent time with Keith and in Albany and stuff, I was not as indoctrinated. And so I could see it and call it out and was like this, there's things here that are not in alignment with what this company proclaims to be about. Nice. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Thank God. Right.

[00:28:56] Do you remember, before I, before I asked you this question, I do actually just remember, just remembered something that one of my, like when I went from, okay. And same thing with me, by the way, from master slave, I was like, that's really fucked up. But like Lauren would normalize it's just coach and, and student or guru and disciple, whatever. It's just terminology. It's just a game. I'm not really her slave. Like she's in Albany. I'm in Vancouver. She can't, she's not enslaving me. She can't, I can't, she can't enforce things.

[00:29:27] And meanwhile, that was a big tipping point for me when she said, now we're going to do new collateral every month. Yeah. So you, you paused at new collateral because you had to hear, you gave collateral to hear about it, but then you were supposed to give more collateral to be in. Yeah. Which that was bullshit to me. I was like, okay, I'm down. I was down to give it the first time. My understanding, give it the first time to hear about it. But I was not understanding why I would continually need to give more and more. Mm-hmm. That made no sense to me. Yeah.

[00:29:55] And was total contradictory of like, that is blackmail and a company that's all about building joy. I could feel it in my body that I was being blackmailed and how horrible that felt, which was completely opposite of what this company proclaimed to be all about. And did I, did I ever get, like, did I ever go to Lauren for that question? Did I get back to you on that one or no? Um. Because I remember there's a lot of back and forth. Like there was a lot of back and forth. A visual conversation. Yeah. That was one of that. I think that was one of the big questions.

[00:30:24] Like, I feel like I had asked you a few and you were like, let me get back to you. And then we didn't talk for a few days. And that was when you called me and you were like, like, my spidey senses are now going. And then at that point you had started learning about like the cages and the spankings. And. Oh my God, I forgot about that. So I think at that point you were also starting to hear more of what was going on as well. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:49] And part of my saving grace was that my two, my, so I was a part of a sisterhood of four other women and two of them were in California and two of them were in Mexico. And we had some group failure about not responding to readiness. And basically we found out our group failure had caused Lauren to get spanked. Yeah. I remember you talking about that. So we decided not me, someone else on my team from Mexico. Like actually spanked? Yeah. Like with a paddle, like with a spanking paddle. Who did it?

[00:31:18] One of her sisters, Lola. One of the other dots in our circle sleighs. Yeah. Yeah. So we decided as a team or was decided and I had to go along with it, that we would spank each other. But because I had no sister in Vancouver to spank me. She got me. I said, Nippy spank me. No, I said, well, I'll catch up with that next time we're all together in Albany, which of course never happened because that was when. It was the original spank you later. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:48] It was the original spank you later. That's right. It all comes from a circle. So yeah, I don't actually, this time period is really cloudy for me because a lot of things were unraveling at the same time. And I don't really remember what happened when because I had also- I can tell you where we were. Well, I'm just trying to, in terms of Denae's story, like how it all fits together. I think you know that like I talked to Mark and he told me about the sex component and we had this conversation.

[00:32:16] And then I went and told our mutual friend who was also a DOS slave under me, let's call her E. Yeah. And I showed her, she was the first person I showed the brand to. Yeah. And I said, we're not doing this anymore. And she looked at it and said, that's KR's initials. She's the one who saw that. Right. And so I, do you remember when I told you like where I'm out or like what was the end end? Yeah. It was in a very short span of time. I feel like all of that happened in probably like a two week period.

[00:32:45] Like, yeah. Yeah. For me, I was, as soon as the second, I, the second time I was asked for collateral, I was out. Like I was checked out at that point. And like before that, you and I were like communicating on a daily basis. And then once I had asked you all those questions, that was when you went kind of like quiet for a week. And I got the sense that you were like going and figuring, trying to ask these questions. And that was when a week later we had the phone conversation where you're like, my spidey senses are getting weird.

[00:33:13] And I feel like it was in like maybe a day or two after that, where, yeah, you were starting to talk with Mark. You told me that you had the whole plan of like going to Albany and that you guys were, I feel like it was in like a two week period where you were like, we're leaving. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. It all unraveled very, very quickly. And yeah, you, I remember you kind of like telling me of, which was crazy to hear like the almost elaborate, what sounded like almost like an elaborate plan to try and get out of it.

[00:33:43] Like I think at the time you were, had your father just passed away? My grandfather was in Toronto and he was, he had stomach cancer and he was going for a surgery, which was legit actually happening. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I recall you were going to do that. And then Nippy, you were going to go to Albany and do your. I'm on a train. Yeah. We all went to Albany. And then I went into the coach retreat. Yeah. Proctor day. Yeah. Actually. As business as usual.

[00:34:09] And it was kind of just in there watching it all happen and kind of seeing a lie. Yeah. I wish I could have done that. It was really interesting to go in there with a new set of eyes. No doubt. What was going on and seeing like, oh my God. Also, I'm still reconciling my own kind of like delusion around it. Yeah. Kind of seeing like, yeah, this was, it was funny. I remember thinking what I originally thought when I got in there. Yeah. Which was? This is weird. Like, okay. So like when you first like rewind to when you first were introduced to me. It was actually in the same room. Yeah. Oh yeah. And apropos?

[00:34:39] No, no. Down where I took my first intensive. The coach summit was. Is it New Carter? No, the Proctor summit was the day before the coach summit. Oh, the Proctor summit was at New Carter. I was at the Proctor thing the day before and I was just trying to kind of feel what was going on. And that was, who knew what? And like, you know, I was just ascertaining. And then I, I basically was like, okay, I'm going to go in tomorrow. I'm going to fucking be a problem. Yeah. Yeah. So I picked up Will from the airport and thank God he believed me. Right.

[00:35:08] Cause you know, I had to take him to a hotel where he was staying and a room was in and another person, another girl who ended up being in DOS and is still loyal. Hmm. Was at the same hotel. I said, you can't say anything to them. Right. I go up the next day, do my thing, which was recorded and stuff. That was in the bow where Nippy calls out Lauren. Yeah. Well, I remember you telling me that he was going to do that. Nippy, that you were going to do that. Oh, really? I remember you telling me that you guys were planning to do that. So Will drops me off at apropos.

[00:35:36] I go in and do it while he's looking for parking. Right. He calls me and goes, where are you? I go, get out the side door right now. We're out of here. It's on. Wow. He picks me up. I put in the car. He drives me back to my house. I put the recording of what just happened on the radio. We listened to it on the way down. That's crazy. The only time anyone's ever called out Lauren. I was in, I was in go mode from that point on. It was just like chaos. It's crazy to hear your guys' experience.

[00:36:04] Cause like you guys were like in, like the fact that you had to like plan like an escape, like that is fricking crazy. Like when personally, when I've told people about my experience with Nixxiom, I don't feel like I was like in, like I took some, yeah, I was training to be a coach. I took some, you know, workshops, intensives and stuff, but like, I, I never felt like all in, you know? No, you weren't. If you weren't in Albany, I don't think you were all in. You could be all in locally. It's case by case. Yeah.

[00:36:33] I was all in locally. Like I loved it. I was all in locally, but I think that was the difference was like Keith wasn't there to fuck with my head. Yeah. If people, people get the Keith hook and you, you were in enough for the Nancy Lauren hook to say yes to DOS initially. Yes. But not in enough to, you know, give collateral for your word. Yeah. To get branded. Yeah. And also giving collateral for your word. I feel like that was on the tail of the indoctrination of human pain and characterization

[00:37:01] and Mobius, which were the level two trainings that like laid the foundation for that. They were trying to get me into Mobius. Yeah. So like Mobius characterization, human pain were level two trainings. Yeah. $6,000 each, by the way. Yeah. Which were the foundational indoctrination pieces that if you didn't have, I feel like even the concept of collateral was like, what? But like those, those, those bits were embedded in those trainings. Yeah. So if that's where I was, like I said earlier, when Lauren suggested you, I'm like, she's not ready for that in that way.

[00:37:30] And so in my mind, now that I know what I'm saying, I'm like, she's not indoctrinated enough. Yeah. You know? Totally. Yeah. And that's true. And probably the only reason why I did end up saying yes was because of my relationship with Lauren. Yeah. And because I'm just kind of a crazy person that was like, buckle up. Sure. Why not? Like I'm open to new experiences. Like what's the worst that could come of it? Cut to? Yeah. Knock on metal. It's such a, it's such a great trait, you know, to be open and to, you know, experiment

[00:37:59] and try new things. And it's just. There's always new people that are going to do so. Well, that's just it. Are you going to stay in your little like bubble? Like I'm never going to, I'm never going to be that way. To me, I want to continue to go out and do trainings, workshops, but like now going in even more so with the, isn't the skepticism. I definitely walked, walked away from this experience being much more skeptical. Yeah. That's good. What stuck with me about what you just said? I think I want to repeat it for our audience is that you said something about like in understanding

[00:38:29] your own psychology of why you said yes. You also said that you are aware that a lot of the shifts you've had in the past, especially with NXIVM came on the heels of feeling a bit uncomfortable. Yeah. Right? Totally. So that, I think that's true with therapy and a lot of growth. Totally. And so our journey has also been like, how do you know the difference between being uncomfortable because you're about to grow or uncomfortable because you're being fucked with? Yeah. You know, and that's a, that's a really, a really distinct thing to figure out. I don't think I even have the answer yet.

[00:38:59] I have an answer. Sure. I have a thought too. Okay. If you have a vision to where you want to go, say an athlete or something like that, the pursuit of that is going to require you to get in situations that are going to expose your weaknesses and be uncomfortable to you. Totally. So if in that pursuit, you understanding that putting myself in the situation gets me closer to that, right? Does that make sense? Then you're probably going to grow. Mm-hmm. Right. If you're afraid of putting the weight on the bar, but you do it anyway. Yeah.

[00:39:28] You grow literally metaphorically. Totally. You build your psychology. But if someone else is implementing it and saying, hey, growth is uncomfortable and I'm going to throw some uncomfortable things that you need to get over in order to be, and it's not you administering it. Yeah. And not having a clear kind of quantifiable. Okay. I used to be scared. I used to be scared of public speaking. Yeah. I'm going to put myself through it. I know it's going to be scary. I'm going to have a rocky road in the process, but eventually it's going to get easy. Yeah. Easier.

[00:39:58] Totally. Stand up. Yeah. Stand up to me is like one of the things that I look at and go, I'd love to be good at that. I feel like I got a little bit of that in me, but I'm too scared and I didn't pursue it or whatever. Yeah. I wasn't willing to put myself through it. Yeah. Comedy. Sorry. It took me a minute. I was like, stand up where? What are you talking about? Stand up comedy. Does that make sense? Yeah. So you're administering when you're uncomfortable and you're dictating, this is my pursuit. Maybe if a coach goes, hey, look, you bail out at this point. Maybe I can help you here. You need a safe word. Yeah. What were you going to say? What was your thought?

[00:40:27] I think you just articulated that really well. But I think one other thing that Bron and I have also been talking about in our podcast a little bit recently is also just being in tune. Like, I feel like we live in this society that is all about like these big pushes. It's the grind. It's the achievement. And like, now that I'm like, it's been very, a very cool experience to be in counseling school and like just tuning more into where you're at and your nervous system is at as a person.

[00:40:51] And like, maybe it's not in your best interest to have to push so hard out of your comfort zone. Like what is, you know, we are just at where we are at with our nervous system. And maybe we're only going to take steps towards our goal that feel safe and comfortable and attainable right now. And if we just keep showing up and taking those small little steps that feel safe and comfortable, we're going to get to that big goal. But we don't have to jump off the, you know, the cliff and just go right to the finish line.

[00:41:21] You know, we can like do it on a smaller. I think that's the biggest thing. It's been kind of full circle now after doing the Nixxiom experiences, which were very deep, very big, very cathartic. I feel like the new approach to a lot of wellness is more like it's a lot smaller. It's a lot more gentle staying within your window of tolerance and being in tune with your nervous system because sometimes doing it on a big scale like that in itself can be traumatizing. I like the new wellness thing.

[00:41:48] It's also in this genre or this time of, I don't know what it's called. This new stage of wellness is also like, it's okay to nap. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like productivity is not that actually important. Like what are we doing it for? You know, it's a different, even from the nineties to the two thousands when we joined Nixxiom, personal growth has had major shifts, you know, like Tony Robbins isn't popular anymore really as much. I mean, I don't know what his numbers are, but it feels like it's not as that sort of like

[00:42:17] raw, raw. Yeah. Ness of it all is different. Totally. But yeah, that is something we're trying to do in the podcast. It's like, what's, if you are going to grow, what's, what are the green flags? What are the red flags? And how do you determine? If you want to grow, pick something you love, go do it and it'll grow you. Yeah. I also have something to share on that because I've been thinking that's such a good question. How do you know the difference between something that is good for you, that's going to challenge

[00:42:43] you, but cause you to grow in a positive way versus something that feels like perhaps an abuse of power, someone like a cult leader or a narcissist. And I think like when I like really, if we all really feel into that feeling that you get when you are being fucked with, there's something about it that comes up in your nervous system. It's the spidey senses. It's an intuitive feeling where you feel like there's something fundamentally off about this.

[00:43:09] There's something slimy about this and you can't quite put your finger on it, but your nervous system is picking up on it. And I think there's a big difference between that feeling and going into the gym and saying, I'm going to fucking put on another weight because I got this. One feels empowering. And like you said, you're administering it versus there's something about this experience, this person, this business with this company. Yeah. Right. It gives you the creeps. Yeah.

[00:43:38] So when I go think back to my first five day and I think like I had so much of that and it was things like Nancy's eyebrows and her power suits and her like, and like the cheesy bread garden lunch that was being served at the Holiday Inn. For those who are in America, bread gardens like Panera. Yeah. Right. It's just like, it was a low budge. It was a low budge situation for two things. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, this is executive success programs. And where the fuck am I in Burnaby in a suburb of Vancouver?

[00:44:08] Burnaby's lovely, but it's just a suburb of Vancouver, this Holiday Inn with this shit breakfast and these. Hardly the example of success. Yeah. It's not success to me. And on the videos weren't success. And really had I not been brought in by Mark Vicente, who I trusted, I would have peaced out on day one. And I also took the challenge, which is they said, you're going to feel uncomfortable. Right. And I talk about this all the time, like I'm sick of my own voice saying it, but that's

[00:44:32] the first, my first buy-in that fucked me long-term was I took the challenge of like, I'm going to be uncomfortable and I'm not going to leave because I'm stronger than that. Yeah. And they even said, you're going to feel uncomfortable. You're going to have, quote, the urge to bolt. We ask you not to. And lean into it and talk to a coach about it. First gaslight. The first gaslight. Yeah. To your point, when I got out and all the language to what I had been feeling was starting

[00:44:59] to come to surface, like people were putting language to it and I was starting to understand it really came down to kind of like we were in the grasp of kind of a spiritual hold because it wasn't explicit, but I was experiencing what you were saying. I was experiencing why the fuck isn't anything growing and working here? There's a lot of competent people working really, really hard right now. It seems like there's something that's not, this should be bigger. Yeah.

[00:45:29] The stuff that Sarah had to deal with and I had to deal with behind the scenes of like just incompetent people, not able to follow through on things. We're like, you know, what's going on here? And I never considered that that was the intent and that was what was being facilitated. And those were the strings being pulled on us because it was never meant to be successful. Yeah. So when I got out and I was able to put language to what I was feeling, my nervous system was picking up. This isn't supposed to do well. Well made sense.

[00:45:54] It all kind of came in and it dropped a piece in the bucket and you need to make sure you're part of an organization that can do what it's supposed to do when you feel that stuff. Yeah. It's really, really valuable for you to go investigate and not go forward. That was another red flag for me as well was I feel like there were a number of coaches who I saw, like this is supposed to be a success program. I come into the center and there was one in particular, but a few of them who were like always getting sick. Like they were always sick.

[00:46:24] They were sleeping in the, what was it? The staff coach lounge or whatever. They would be like literally sleeping on the couch in there and just seemed so depressed. All the women were like gauntly thin. Like it was just like this for somebody who is a like higher, almost a green sash, orange sash. That's supposed to be representative of somebody who's being apparently like doing really well in life. But this person is not a walking embodiment.

[00:46:52] And if anything, I feel like this person is really unwell. Yeah. And there were a few examples of that. Yeah. Even more of them in Albany. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I mean, I would joke and now it's not so much a joke anymore, but it felt like every time we're going to Albany, we're going to a funeral. And sometimes we were. We had two. Yeah. That's true. Two females of like purple sashes. It really had a like, what's going on here vibe. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yep. Not by accident as I've come to find out. Yeah. Yeah. So the shit hit the fan. Yeah. And then. Sorry.

[00:47:21] And then it was okay. We had a meeting. I remember me and you. Oh yes. And the two other. Yeah. Sisters. That were under me as my little slave pod, which was really weird. But I mean, that all lasted for a time of like a month or two. Like we didn't have that going for very long. Not a great idea. I never made you do anything weird or bad. No. No. No. You had like just gotten in. Yeah. And I feel like we were your first assignment. Yeah.

[00:47:48] And I don't know for sure fully what the conversations were with the other two girls, but I was out pretty quick. Yeah. I was like, no. One of the girls only gave the collateral to hear about it. And the other girl, or I should say women. These are all women. Grown women. Had. I didn't even have any chance to give her an assignment past readiness because it was all very new. We're all kind of learning how to be slave and masters together. Yeah. And I was also still taking it like an exercise. Like this is a game. We're elevating our growth. You're not obviously my slave.

[00:48:17] I'm like, can you get me a green juice, bitch? Like, you know, I'm. Save that for me. I just saved that for Nippy. Yeah. Yeah. For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir. It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life. I narrate the audio version and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. And now a brief message from our little bit culty sponsors. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

[00:48:49] Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty. It's a good one. I had a meeting after I came back from Albany and I tried to, I don't remember much about it, but I do remember meeting. I think it was at your house. Yeah. And what was that like? Um, I remember I was, I was angry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I felt like I was angry. And I mean, I think I was just the whole fucking thing was so disappointing. Yeah. Like it was heartbreaking to be a part of something that, like I said, I was like getting so much,

[00:49:18] uh, I was benefiting and growing from so much. I loved so many of the people and to just be like, man, this is now being dismantled because of this idiot at the top who can't control his dick. Like, yeah. Fuck off. Yeah. Like I was so angry. Yeah. And I think some of that was a little displaced at you. I was going to say, I remember feeling you were angry at me and also understanding why you were, would be. Yeah. I mean, at the time I, I, I feel like, I mean, so much time has gone. I'm older and more mature. Like the healing has occurred since then.

[00:49:46] Um, but I, um, I think that at the time, maybe there was just like feeling of blaming you a little bit of just like, come on, Sarah. Like, how did you not know? Like you brought us in. Whereas now I look at it and it's like, yeah, like you got in young, you know, every, everybody went in thinking that this was a good thing. And there were a lot of good things. And unfortunately, probably because we were good people, we didn't see this evil monster

[00:50:13] because we couldn't even imagine that that was going on. And there was a lot of good. We were all, I mean, Mark Vicente was a huge part of why I joined in the first place because like. Me too. Yeah. I know Braun's the same. Like both you and I think had watched his movie, What the Bleep Do We Know? And like, there were a lot of legitimately successful, intelligent people. And I truly believe that none of us would have been a part of this organization, especially

[00:50:42] for as long as a lot of us were, if there weren't legitimately, legitimately good things that were happening. Do you know? So yeah, I look at it now. It's just like, it's unfortunate that Keith was an idiot because it could have been really, it could have been really dope. Even Doss could have been dope without the collateral, like badass bootcamp, underground movement of women changing the world. Sounds great. I think a lot of us. Female Freemasons. Which is actually why I invited you here today. Oh, yeah. The big reveal. She was a love bomb, dude. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:11] I think a lot of us are still craving that kind of like community. And I don't know, Braun and I, we've always been into personal development. I would still love to be a part of a group of people who are as ambitious, goal-orientated, like-minded, you know, like, yeah. Stuff like that doesn't really seem to exist. No. And I'm still very allergic to- Are you? Yeah. I try. I got invited to like a cacao ceremony in Atlanta. And it was like, it was in a circle and people were sharing about like some of the things they were struggling with.

[00:51:40] And I was like, I can't do this. Really? Yeah. I like the cacao. The chocolate drink. Give me that chocolate milk. Yeah. It was actually tasted good. And I definitely opened my third eye chakra or whatever the fuck it was supposed to do. But I was allergic to the setup, you know? Even just sharing in a circle just reminded me too much about like, this setup is fine because it's a podcast and we're not sharing our like, you know, what we're struggling with. We're not drinking cacao. We could. I did my first a little bit of mushrooms. Yeah, that would have been dope. I think for me, I hear what you're saying.

[00:52:09] I feel like now more than ever, there's a lot of like personal development and healing has become cooler and more acceptable than ever. And Braun and I were just talking about this on our last podcast. Like the fake, there's more like fake gurus than ever. Yeah. And I feel like you can go to those like circles or whatever and you can feel when a person is coming from a place of like, this is trendy and cool. So let's talk about our feelings versus someone who's deeply integrated the shit. Yeah. And can talk about it from like, I don't know.

[00:52:37] To me, you can just, you can feel the difference of someone who's fake and trying to be a certain role versus somebody who's got it embodied, who's lived it and genuinely cares. Yes. That's what I pick up on now when I'm doing those things. Yeah. And you, and either way, you still are good at keeping your own autonomy and taking and leaving whatever tools don't fit for you. Yeah, I think so. So important. Yeah. Yeah. How's your healing journey been since then? Yeah, it's been good.

[00:53:06] I mean, to be honest, like even Braun, when you posted on our stories today about like, you know, like our horrible, I can't remember what word you use, like our horrific experience or something like that. Or maybe you just said it in this podcast. No, I was just referencing what it, what it ended up being that was horrific. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. For me, I, I don't feel like I took away a ton of wounding from my experience with Nixxiom.

[00:53:34] Like I said, the stuff with relationships is fucked with my head a bit. But I think the biggest wounding for me has been just like seeing how people can be so flawed. Like even when people are well intentioned, like all of us who had the desire to genuinely help, just how in our essence there just can be, we can just be flawed as people, even when we're trying our best. Yeah. And I think that was coupled with my relationship at the time, you know, the situation.

[00:54:03] He was also a good person, but like, you know, made some mistakes, fucked up. And so I feel like I walked away from that, those experiences just feeling like waiting for people to disappoint me. Yeah. And having a hard time trusting in getting excited or believing in anything or anyone anymore. Right. Like with anything, even our podcast, like anything, I don't like get really excited for things anymore because I'm more like, show me over time. Show me who you are in relationships.

[00:54:33] It's the same thing. I don't get excited when I date. Now my mom's always like, who are you dating? I'm like, ah, some guy. Like, we'll see. Yeah. You know, like I just don't get excited anymore because I'm like expecting the fallout. Right. The betrayal. Yeah. Yeah. Or just them to show their inevitable flawed humanness that could destroy my life. Yay. Yay. Yeah. I look at life as like an ongoing healing journey. I love it. I'm so passionate about it and I will continue to do it for my entire life.

[00:55:02] And yeah, I geek out on it. So. Which is what made you such a prime recruitment back then. Right. Like do you and like you and you're like, oh, you know, putting your hand up in your intro session. Like we, that's what we were always looking for. People who were the lights, the light shining lights in a group. People who really were wanting to geek out on personal development. That was like our favorite type of enrollment. Yeah. How long you guys been doing your pod? We just started. Yeah. We just started. Three weeks. Yeah. How's it going so far? It's going so good. Yeah. Is it so fun?

[00:55:31] It's super fun. I think the fact that we get to do it together, we've, I mean, do you want to speak to it? Sure. Yeah. I actually want to really quickly say something to the healing thing because it made me remember something about my healing journey. And I think that like, it almost, it makes me emotional to think of like how deeply wounded probably, well, definitely you guys are, but I know I've heard Mark Vicente talk about

[00:55:58] how deeply wounded he was on like a spiritual level, like having the experience of going through what he went through with NXIVM and not being able to believe in good anymore. Yeah. And for a lot of years. That really hit you. I remember that. Well, for a lot of years, because for me, I actually want to help people.

[00:56:21] And then after NXIVM and finding out about what, what it actually was, I started to question myself and my own intentions and my own desires to help. I'm like, how do I know if I'm not going to turn into that? And I actually muted my light for a long time. Even, even to this day, I'm not living at the, at my highest light because I'm, I'm, I still feel like I'm healing to some degree.

[00:56:48] I went to a Tony Robbins seminar, like a fight, his five day thing, a couple, couple of years ago. And I had this big, like, I cried a lot and it ended up being a really positive and beautiful healing experience. But what came out of it was the realization, like, I don't fucking trust anybody because of what happened. And it makes me emotional, I think, because I like to what you said, Denae, how we are all like, are also susceptible as people who want to do good in the world.

[00:57:17] We want to believe in good, but when we get hurt like that, we protect. And so it's been a, it's been a long healing period of learning how to open up again and like really believe in the light again. So. Yeah. I'm glad that you've, you're on the other side of that. Yeah, I definitely am. And, and, and to the podcast, the original question, it's going fantastically well because

[00:57:44] I feel like that to what you guys, it's such an honor to be on this podcast because I'm such a huge, huge appreciator of what you guys are doing. To me, it's educating the world about how, about what this looks like and how susceptible we all are to it. And I think, I think more of like the abuses of power, narcissistic traits that run so deeply

[00:58:12] in our society that aren't as exposed as they need to be. And I believe that what you guys are doing, you're shining a light on that. And I'm, again, it makes me emotional because it's so fucking important. Oh, thanks, bro. And, and I think that to, to mine and Danae's podcast now we get to be in our fucking light and we're having fun while simultaneously, you know, and we're fucking goofballs right on the podcast.

[00:58:39] So we're, you know, we're showing up in our authentic selves while getting the opportunity to help people in the way that we always wanted to. And I feel like you guys are doing the same thing with this podcast, which is, it's, it's, it's so fucking beautiful. It's pretty cool. Cause like as kids, Bron and I used to love making videos and performing. So it feels like we're bringing like our theatrical performance now combined with our like love and passion of self-development and like Bron is a life coach, me and.

[00:59:06] And your skill set being in radio for so long, this is like, it's such a natural fit. Yeah. It feels like all of our passions and skills coming together and the fact that we get to do it as siblings and we both have the same mission of wanting to help people. Like it just literally feels like all the perfect pieces coming together. So yeah, we're pumped. It's, it's been fun. We'll make sure. A lot of work. Yes, we do know. And we'll put your, the link to that in our show notes and all that stuff and where to find, find you guys and anything that we can ever do to help support. Like we've learned, we've learned a lot.

[00:59:36] A lot in our three years of having a podcast. Yeah. So separate, like offline, if you ever want to have a little like podcast download session, we're happy to share what to do and what not to do because there's so many different ways to do it. That'd be amazing. You know, like go to the network, do you, do ads, not do ads. Consistency though. Keep doing it. Keep doing it. That's every, every Monday at three o'clock we drop a new hot Johnson. If you, if you, if you take care of that, I think other things will open up. Yeah. Show up consistently, lead from the heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Universe will be there.

[01:00:06] Have fun. 100%. I know we did offer and we have just a few minutes left that you could ask us any questions. Did we cover everything? Can we do Chaps My Ass? Oh yes. Yeah. Do you want to go first? Sure. What really Chaps My Ass? It actually, it makes me really sad and upset and even angry how this, these kinds of organizations can not just exist, but thrive still to this day in our world.

[01:00:31] And our quote unquote leaders in the world are doing relatively speaking, what they, what they could do about it versus what they are doing about it. It makes me very mad. It chaps my ass. Yeah. By the way, I was thinking that you should have a little bit culty lotion for our chapped asses. Oh my God. That could be a, that's actually a great idea. I like that. Merch note. Yeah. Just tardy. Merch note. Okay. Oh my God. Oh my God. Speaking of merch, this is a really good segue. Oh yeah. Did you ring the fanny packs?

[01:01:01] We got a fanny pack for Danae. Oh my God. I love it. And a hat for Braun. Oh heck yeah. Oh, this is so badass. And also I got lip balms for both of you. Hold on. I love that you guys have merch. Oh my God. So cute. Lip balm for both of you. So cute. Sorry about the noise. Love it. So every time you, this is, this is the skulls? No, I thought it was the little black skulls. Have you seen those? No. Okay. This is a little bit culty. Lip balm. Wow. Here you go. Cute. It works on your ass too, right? Yeah. Let's try it out, guys. There you go.

[01:01:30] Do you show a video on your Patreon? You got to pay extra for that. Wait, hold on. Let me get a little of this. Oh, I've never actually opened one of those. Oh, you haven't? Oh. Oh yeah, that's nice. Danae Johnson, our latest author of the scene. That's kind of cool. We're murder slave. Top quality. Lip balm getting. Get it. Let's see your fanny pack. Yes, queen slay. Who's the choice as a ace? Show them the fanny pack. Okay, show me your fanny pack. Hey, I'll show you. Look how cute this is. Go out and buy 10. Well, it's actually, the only people can get these are our inner circle members of our Patreon. What?

[01:02:00] Yeah. So, guess an inner circle. Get the silver. Bad on. Let's see your lip balm. It's so luxurious. Thank you for doing that on our podcast. That's a cute tuk. I think that this. Let's do it on you. Okay. Yeah. Is it going to ruin your hair? Yeah, that's okay. It's worth it? Sometimes we need to suffer from beauty. Don't pull it on so down. Isn't that right, Nippy? I like it. Pull it up a bit. Yeah. The hat bastard. Yeah. Oh, that looks so good. My fashion designer over there. You can wear it in the fall, but for now it looks really good. It's going to keep me warm.

[01:02:30] It's a little bit healthy. Yeah, it's like 30 degrees in. Oh my God. So fun. Thanks, guys. So that was, what about you? Which haps your ass? Which haps my ass, honestly, is the fact that I didn't keep all my notes from everything. Where'd they go? You checked them all out? Yeah, I threw it all out. There was so much good content that I wish that I still had. Well, I can show them out. Do you? Yeah, I still have it. Really? Yeah, I can show you my binder. I'll bring you back some. Can I get copies of all of it? Yeah, of course. I think I have a lot of it on email too, like the notes that we handed out.

[01:02:59] Yeah, we still have the drives and all that. And the EMs. Can you teach us the EM tech? You know what? I would never teach you the EM tech, but there is another methodology that we found that is basically like copied straight from. Okay. Yes, and that exists and you can learn it in another. Oh, something. In other schools. I want to know, like those, the exploration of meanings, the EMs, literally shifted. I've never experienced something so profound at shifting things in my life for the better. Yeah.

[01:03:27] Also, timeline therapy can also be similar to an EM. Okay. You go back to the original memory and you insert data that would change your reaction in the moment is similar, but I'm forgetting the name of the guy I have to ask, Sharmel, who studied this other method that she found after leaving NXIVM. Karen Entryner mentioned it as well. I'll find out the name and I'll text it to you, but you can go learn this method and it's essentially an EM. Okay. And you can add that into your counseling tool belt. Yeah. Do we feel like EMs were bad because of how Keith was doing them? They could be bad.

[01:03:56] They're making you obedient. Yeah. The knife in the hand of a surgeon or the knife in the hand of a murderer. Yeah. Because basically an EM was saying, like, I have a reaction to, let's say, you know, conflict or, you know, I get scared when my bills come or whatever. That's an easy thing to help shift someone's perspective so they're not reactive to it. But if somebody doesn't want to do something, like I'm saying to Lauren, I don't want to get branded. Yeah. And then she EMs me for the purpose of her doing what she wants me to do. That's a problem. Yeah. So the EM wasn't inherently bad.

[01:04:26] It was like, depending who was doing it and what they were trying to do with it. If you have an intent as someone, an EM practitioner, if you have an intent for an outcome, well, think about it as a therapist. If a therapist comes in and I've even suggested, hey, work on this. Totally. You work on your reaction to X. Yes. And then I facilitate it and say, do you see how it was whatever? And I get the result I want. Like, it's not an organic process. It's like a lawyer leading. Exactly. Yeah.

[01:04:56] No, you're totally have the potential of implanting thoughts. And also, I mean, Lauren had an agenda. Yeah. So she used her skill set. Right. To make people obedient to the agenda of Keith. Right. Yeah. I mean, I had an EM with Sarah that was very effective. And yeah, like I said, I had some very positive ones. But I could see how with the wrong people, if they had those intentions of creating that obedience or brainwashing, like obviously that would.

[01:05:26] Also to give you an idea of the atmosphere around Keith is all the women that were good at EMs were in that DOS circle. Yeah. And they all kept EMing each other. Right. Yeah. So he just had, he had a system of basically, I think women that were just gaslighting each other into obedience. Wow. So that was the storm that was going on all week that we were getting a hit of. Yeah. Not considering what we ended up finding out was going on. See, I didn't get a lot of EMs from those people.

[01:05:54] Like I had gotten one from Sarah, like Lucas, I think. But even if you did get EMs from them, they didn't have an agenda necessarily with someone in Vancouver. So that would even make you more non-suspecting of them. Well, exactly. I hadn't experienced this person. They did a great EM. They helped me see something in a way like they're doing what? So it's a lot of like, it's a lot of like, I mean, I'll draw, make it analogous to like what's going on today.

[01:06:19] Like when I hear certain things that go on with our government leaders go on, part of me is like, no, they didn't. They didn't do that. Right. Like I have a, like, even with like what I went through, I see it happening in real time. Like I see what's going on and it's not to out myself politically. I think, but I see it and I'm like, I still have a hard time that they would do that. They would lie. They would like, it's just, it's just a hard thing to accept. And I think it was on ramp. I think it's one of the things that allows them to get away with it. Yeah.

[01:06:49] Are you guys totally allergic to personal growth in any form? I mean, we've both been approached to help certain things. The only thing I would be interested in doing is maybe if someone knew that I was good at like goals lab, I don't know if you're in my goals lab, but I really liked just hearing where, where people were not getting what they want and hearing their, how their belief system was informing it. Yeah. Really good at eliciting it. It was really good at identifying it and really good at helping the person see it. Yeah.

[01:07:17] I could go in someplace where there's people in a workplace that were interested in that and I was helping a company grow or something like that. Do you need one to start one? I would, I would do that. But also one of the reasons I was effective at it is because I had people that had buy into the system and it gave me permission to say, do you hear how you say that? Like whatever. I go in and if I were to try that now, I don't have that earned authority with them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was very powerful. You have an authority that was. Well, you have an authority to tell them what I was seeing. Yeah. You can really direct.

[01:07:47] So I could have a direct, somewhat blunt relationship with what they were doing. Yeah. That was much needed. Yeah. Most people don't have friends that can go and be like, no, what you're saying here is what's keeping you here, here, and here. Yeah. And then their friend going, thank you. Yeah. Right? Those relationships. And in a lot of ways, I don't want those with my friends. Like I would rather be going and be like, don't, I don't even know what your pursuit is, all I have to see is X, Y, Z. And I go, well, what do you tell you? You know, I don't know if you saw me do it.

[01:08:16] I was pretty good at listening and this being somewhat transactional. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But we've made friends like in Atlanta, I feel, who've come to us and been like, they can tell that we're good at problem solving. They're like, wait, we have this situation. Can we get your eyes and ears on it? And we're happy to talk it out. Like that's sort of the extent of it. I don't want to charge for it. I don't want to. No. I don't want to. Also think athletes. Athletes is where I was. I had an idea. You would thrive there, babe. I think that'd be a really good spot for you. I would really love to just go in and tell athletes, particularly quarterbacks. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:42] Like that's one of the things that before COVID hit, I was going to go work with some quarterbacks and receivers and just be like, boom, boom, boom. And anything that could help them in the physical realm as much as the emotional realm. Yeah. That's so cool. That was somewhat interesting. I mean, it may still be something I do. I mean, I love doing it with my son and just watching him and his mental world. He had a real interesting situation. He's gravitating towards pitching and he's pretty good at pitching.

[01:09:11] And he was in a game and he's getting ready to go. And I could tell he's a little nervous and he doesn't really get that nervous. He is in the process. And I go, do you think playing quarterback or pitching is harder? He was playing quarterback. I go, why? He said, no one's chasing you. I go, take your time. You know how to throw it. You don't have to scramble, set your feet, and you're not running from anyone. Yeah. And then I saw him go, oh. Yeah. And then I was like, if you have a problem, stop, get off the mound, breathe. He would do it. Go breathe and come in and just boom, boom. And so that kind of emotional being able to do that.

[01:09:41] That's interesting to me, but I don't have plans for it. I'd be open to it. I feel like every time I've even, like even the P&I a couple of years out, we did a parenting workshop and there was a whiteboard. And like just the setup was just so triggering. Yeah. And not like I'm having a PTSD reaction or anything. I just don't want to sit in a room. I just like certain things like that. Like I said, the sharing circle at Cacao Ceremony is just, I don't enjoy it. Yeah. You know?

[01:10:11] And it's, I'm past the waves of like, there are other things that used to trigger my PTSD in a way that were like debilitating. I don't have that anymore. Yeah. I agree with that. I've done this. Yeah. Yeah. I spent my 30s in a room. Yeah. I'm just like. Like I don't, I don't, I don't need to grow. I'm, I'm growing naturally from being a parent. I don't need to pursue growth. It's like, I'm growing because I'm learning to be a mother and I'm learning how to be, to produce a podcast. Like it doesn't, I don't have to be in a program that's facilitating it. I'm just growing. Yeah.

[01:10:41] So that's cool. I think. That makes so much sense. Fanny Pac looks so good on Danae. It matches right now. It totally does. Bye bye. It is a vibe. Into it. We have to wrap up, which sucks because I feel like we could talk and talk and talk, but it's been like such a joy. A, to reconnect with you guys. Now I'm going to cry. Like we've been through so much shit together, you know? And it's hard to, it's hard to like revisit some of those things, but A, I appreciate you're not angry at me anymore. And I, I, I knew you weren't, but to hear that, um, you know, it's just, it's hard having

[01:11:10] bad blood with people that, you know, you obviously didn't intend on. Well, the bomb went off in her lap. Yeah. It got one off in my lap. Shrubble hit you. So it's kind of like. Totally. No, I knew you thought it was a good, good thing. We all did. Yeah, we did. And look at us actually doing a good thing now. So it all comes full circle. It also does. I hope that we can keep in touch. Yeah. And for sure. Definitely. Where do we find you on social medias? Danae.braun is our Instagram, but yeah, the hot Johnson.

[01:11:39] You can find us YouTube, Spotify. Yeah. Let's do YouTube. Oh yeah. We're filming it. It's a full show. How about this? We'll get together with you. You tell us about YouTube and we'll tell you about the other podcast shit. Because we've got to get our shit together. Yeah. We'll do a goals lab. Yeah. Oh my God. I would love it. You should do that. Maybe you should do a podcast goals lab. Mastermind. Not right now. We've got to wrap this. Okay. Lots of love you guys. Love you guys. Thank you. It's been an honor. Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty?

[01:12:08] Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're a little bit susceptible. Just share the love. Thanks. All right, everybody. That's the end of part two with the Hot Johnsons. Let us know what you thought of the episode on our Instagram and see you next Monday. With some brand new content. Bye for now.

[01:12:55] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios. And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.