Michael Shamblin Black on The Way Down and Escaping Remnant (Part 2)

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[00:02:27] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult. And that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:02:55] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season eight of A Little Bit Culty. Seeking down, taking down to the ocean. Okay, welcome back to part two with Michael Shamblin Black.

[00:03:22] If you haven't listened to the first episode, this one will not go smoothly. Okay, Michael. So we've been, we kind of jumping around in the timeline, which is totally fine. People can figure it out. I would like to just go back for a bit because you talked about the moment where Gwen starts her own church and your music label gets dropped. How long after that do you decide to leave? And is there any other pivotal kind of emotional moments?

[00:03:50] And if you do ever decide to write a book, by the way, I know we talked about that a few years ago. Those moments are the sort of the emotional junctures. Like things are going one way and then you're like, yeah, no. And whatever you feel comfortable talking about. I know the doc mentioned that, you know, you had your own ups and downs. Like what was going on for you during all this time? You personally. I want to say like why I went along with it in the first part of Remnant.

[00:04:19] I went along with it because I had never watched someone like Gwen who could stand up against a system like that. The male-dominated religious system. So I was in awe at, you know, for the first few years. It was a form of admiration.

[00:04:45] And similar to like a form of admiration for like a group, you know, going up against a system. Like, you know, incredible odds. Like in Star Wars, like the rebellion. You know, you're going against the Empire. It was that type of awe. And also just in awe of somebody that's not afraid to take a stance on something and hold it. I was never completely, you know, all in with Remnant, one over.

[00:05:14] And so then after a time, I start getting disappointed because I see her start turning into this massive control freak. Like, that's the basics of how I started. And so then as it goes on, you know, you do have the stuff like we have a lot of early persecution. And Remnant, that affected me.

[00:05:41] I don't know if I should share this story because it may, you know, have to be bleeped out or something. But, you know, like early on in Remnant, I remember people, you know, threatening to burn Gwen at the stake. And, you know, keeping I'm like 21, 22 years old. And this is my mother still. And I remember during those years in 2002, there was a cardinal law of the Catholic Church.

[00:06:08] He was on the cover of, I think, Time Magazine or something. But it was right after all of these things were going on with the Catholic Church being exposed for a lot of the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. A lot of when the Catholic Church ends up having to pay a lot of money to silence it. But Remnant was starting. We were getting all this persecution. Gwen's scaring us to death all the time in these sermons. People are threatening her.

[00:06:37] And so I'm kind of like in this militant state of mind a little bit. And, you know, I remember being so horrified and so upset. I took a rifle one night and shot at a steeple across the street like midnight and shooting up. I was not even close to shooting anywhere near a person. And I realize now how stupid that was. You don't shoot a gun in the air like that because it can come down and hurt somebody. But I did that one time.

[00:07:07] And that's, you know, it was a sign of how much I was upset at Christianity. I'm looking at all these people and I start, you know, over time I start seeing these. I mentioned it to Drew Binsky like I caught it cracks in the walls of Jerusalem. And it was with people I was working with. And I started seeing these people running off with people having affairs. And then they can get on stage and they can lift their hands and they could smile. And that just bothered me to no end.

[00:07:36] It destroyed me. I just couldn't. I just wasn't that type of person. I didn't have that gear. And I was watching them and people appear just like angels on the outside. And once again, that's appearances. And all I talked about was losing weight in Remnant. And I don't know. I just had this. I was scared in Remnant that I had given up everything. I lost my Christian music deal. I didn't get to have the college experience that, you know, I always wanted.

[00:08:05] I wanted to go to UT Knoxville and I didn't get to do that because of Remnant. So I missed out on that. My reputation was destroyed because everybody in Remnant was hated by everybody in Nashville. Everywhere we'd go, people staring. Gwen, you couldn't miss Gwen with the hair. So we were hated, lost everything. Not lost everything, but you know what I mean. The only people you had friends with were in Remnant.

[00:08:33] And I was feeling like it had all been in vain. And we'd had so many wild experiences. People were threatening to snipe Gwen through the window at night. So we'd have to shut the curtains at night because when we met, because in our office, because people were saying they're going to snipe her. I just couldn't believe this whole thing was happening. All this had happened. And now I'm seeing people running off and doing crap.

[00:08:56] So I am just like in this state of shock and seeing the cracks grow in the walls. And, you know, Remnant, the phrase in Remnant, you know, it was a lot of it was rebuilding the wall based off, you know, the Israelites coming back from Babylon and rebuilding Jerusalem. And in the Old Testament, and they're talking about how the people would, they're building with one hand,

[00:09:23] putting blocks on the wall with one hand, and they're holding a sword with the other hand. And I felt like that's what was going on. But the thing is, our eyes were looking everywhere for enemies, but nobody was looking at ourselves. We weren't looking in at what we were doing. And so there's nothing normal about it. And so then over time, Gwen, like I said, she gets crazy controlling. She gets worse.

[00:09:52] She, you know, not letting me work with people outside the church, like with music or people. And then I start seeing, you know, the red flags, the big red flags. And I know y'all talk about that a lot with your podcast, but, you know, it's the Joseph Smith murder case, of course. The child discipline and Remnant. With that murder case, too, I remember that going on. And Gwen wouldn't let me see the autopsy photos. And I was asking for them. She had them.

[00:10:28] And then she would be like, just let me explain it to everybody. And, you know, one of the red flags was that. And then the child discipline, you know, and the showdown spankings and things of that nature. You started seeing kids freaking out in the Remnant because their parents would get extreme. I saw kids leave, kids I knew, because their parents started putting all these rules on the fridge. And just being, there was really ridiculous stuff going on and locking them in their rooms and stuff like that.

[00:10:57] And you have artists. I started seeing the artists security team being built like this army and Remnant, another huge red flag. And then when I found the guidance system, that was another big red flag. What's that? Oh, gosh, the guidance system. I mean, it's basically all of the information of every member. And I know other churches have this kind of stuff.

[00:11:22] But it is like, I remember getting on the Remnant website one day in my office and seeing, like, they had this thing where it was just like, it's files on every single person in the church. And it's cataloging everything they've ever done, you know, every doubt they have about Gwen.

[00:11:50] It's got a map of every member's homes on like a Google map type thing. We had our own Remnant map. It shows every bit of counsel every single person in the church is getting. That's a file and they're long files. And I did, I had evidence of that and I presented it to Phil Williams of Channel 5 in Nashville when I did that, when the first time I ever came out and started doing interviews.

[00:12:16] And so it just was a massive overreach of privacy. It's a massive overreach of power within Remnant. All of the information. And gathering. Gathering of blackmail. For blackmail? Blackmail. Exactly. They get people. And that was, I was telling people there, you know, they, everybody felt so honored to come into Remnant, new people and get up and give their testimony. And tell everything about themselves.

[00:12:43] And I'm like, you guys, they're filming you so that in one year when you're ticked off, they have the video. It's, it's collateral. Like what you talk about. So, I mean, it's what y'all talk about in NXIVM. It's collateral. We just didn't call it that. No. Well, testimony is, has a better ring to it. Does it though? I like that. Let me back up for a second.

[00:13:07] Was the glue sticks and the rods, like were you also, were you and your sister also hit? Was that kind of discipline part of your upbringing or did that come later? Yes, we were given, you know, we were spanked like, you know, a lot of kids. But I, I, the worst stuff didn't start coming to Remnant. And we were by then adults. Right.

[00:13:31] And you were, you were an adult and also at some point in this, if you don't want to talk about your personal life in terms of your family, we don't have to. But you, or if you feel comfortable, like you got married, like during your red flag time, were you also trying to raise a family? Right. Yeah.

[00:13:48] Yeah. And even my marriage was kind of one of those things that kind of kept me in remnant because I had an arranged marriage, which I know it sounds ridiculous. This is 2026 the last time I checked. But we had, you know, it was an arranged marriage, full on arranged marriage where I was very young, 21, 22. And that was pushed on me. I had all the leaders in Gwen because they could control my ex-wife.

[00:14:15] She was a girl. They ran off other girls that I was dating. And she was the girl that was chosen for me. And I was the third wedding within remnant. They number all their weddings. And I was number three. And it was Gwen approved. And my ex, I always said to people, she was married to my mother.

[00:14:39] And that sounds odd, but that's what it was. Her real spouse was Gwen because I could not confide in her. I really couldn't. Or I get turned in. Our entire marriage, I never had that. I didn't have this experience of meeting somebody and falling in love.

[00:14:58] And, you know, we're going to make it us versus the world and all this stuff. I did not have that. It was completely arranged. I was not, you know, I want to be careful how I'm not trying to down her. But I would not have put it this way. Neither one of us would have married each other. I would not have married her. Correct. It sounds like Gwen put somebody in your life that she could control you and make sure that it was like a little having a mole implanted in your home and that she was.

[00:15:27] Exactly. They talked every single day. And in fact, I even remember once AirPods started coming out, she would sometimes have a drink of alcohol and she would leave one of her AirPods laying around. So I would put it then. They talked about me probably three or four hours a day. Her and my sister. Jesus. Gwen. That's called triangulation. But they talked about everybody all the time. Make sure you bring that to your next therapy session. Triangulation. Triangulation. Triangulation.

[00:15:58] Yes. I don't like it. That's what narcissists do. No. Narcissists do it a lot and they do it to control and make sure that you're like, think of the triangle, right? Instead of her going directly to you. They can create problems whenever they want. They can, yeah, use the second person. Also known as, and you may not have gotten to this part of the book yet, a flying monkey from the Wizard of Oz.

[00:16:18] So it makes your wife and the other, I mean, it sounds like Gwen had a lot of flying monkeys and actually we didn't talk about this. When did you become Joseph Lara's stepson and how was that? Oh, goodness gracious. That was wow. I mean, how was it? Yeah. Like, did you see that train wreck coming a mile away or was he charming? Like, I mean, I can only imagine what it was like from the documentary, but what was your perspective of that whole thing?

[00:16:47] I mean, by the time that Joe Lara's coming around, I'm kind of just in a state of existing shock. So like nothing shocked me anymore that Gwen would do. You know, I remember everybody was so just enamored with him. They were so blown away by him.

[00:17:03] You know, he was in all these B-movie type things, action movies and country music star wannabe kind of guy, a pilot. And he's, he was an impressive guy, but I, with Joe, I, he was so fast tracked into the high position.

[00:17:24] He ended up being something like Gwen's bodyguard, you know, and he was, I knew that he was nothing like they were trying to position him. Like he's like some perfectly righteous, you know, pure person to the average member. And they're bending the reality like they always do. I knew that he wasn't that. And I, I almost always felt like some sort of, this is weird with somebody that threatened my life, but I felt a weird connection with them.

[00:17:54] Like he was in a similar position as me. Cause I'm obviously at that point gathering information and writing in a secret journal and he's coming in and he's an actor. He's having to be on stage and walk Gwen up and hold her hand, lifting his hands up to God. I mean, do you really think Joe Lara was in church? Like praising God before? Like, no. That's a grift for him. Yeah. It seemed like it just, he was a parasite on her wealth is what it looked like from the dog anyway.

[00:18:24] He swung into her life. Yes. Yeah, we get it. I knew. Thanks. I knew that he hated me though. He wants like one time he wouldn't say it. He was very careful with his words because he's also like this. He was like as high as you up, you can get like civilian sniper. He went, he knew all these, he knew some Navy SEALs and all these people. So he was like very serious. He was a diver and all this kind of stuff.

[00:18:54] So he would, he knew all these military guys. He was extremely serious. And, but he, one time, so everything he did was calculated. He wasn't like silly, like some of the other people could be like being funny. So one time he sent me a picture of my newborn son with one of Gwen's obnoxious, her witch cats within Ashlong. The cat was like climbing up the stroller and he took a photo and sent it to me. I wasn't even there at the time.

[00:19:25] And it was just like, is that a threat? Is that a, it was weird. Like the cat's about to jump on my baby sleeping. Or just the poor sense of humor. He, he was, I actually think he was a monster in a lot of ways. He was used to being able to get away with things. He was like this cowboy type guy. He could, he could, he was the type guy to walk into the bar and threaten people, you know, that type of thing.

[00:19:52] And I was just a variable in his mind to be managed. He had his thing going there. And I was just maybe a little bit of a slightening, threatening, slightly threatening variable because they were always concerned. I was going to go to media, but it was very awkward. And I didn't care about him getting the high position. I didn't want it. I was even at the time I was thinking of trying to use Joe to help get me out of remnant because he had all these contacts in media or Hollywood.

[00:20:20] All I was actually going, look, because when they started talking about doing something with TLC, a reality show, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, hell yeah, let's do it. Because as soon as we do a reality show, I'm going to do a spinoff or something. You know, this is my chance. If I finally get some recognition, I'll make people know of what's going on here. Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder.

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[00:26:36] Sponsor Breaks Den. Back for more culty stories. But Gwen would have none of it. She had to control everything. Yeah, I know. As I say, anything that narcissists can't curate, they don't participate in. Right. And I remember her even asking the guy who came from DLC, you know, I remember her asking like about having editing privileges, like everything. And I'm like, you have to be able to work with somebody,

[00:27:05] you know, to do things like this. And that doesn't, like you said, it doesn't occur to her that she has to work with somebody on editing. She has to have the say. Wow. Okay, so you're stuck. You have this arranged marriage. You're watching your mother get grifted by a parasite B-level actor. You're trying to find your way out, but you're stuck. What's the final, like, how do you actually leave?

[00:27:32] Well, it would be the plane crash. Really. After all that had happened, you know, Joe, by the very end there, Joe gives me the sniper threat before they die. A few months before they died, he threatened my wife, which is kind of wild. I didn't know that. What did he do? So I was, I came over to Ashland one day. And he, Gwen was like, hey, Joe wants to see these out at the shed in the back.

[00:28:00] And so I was, he had turned, my dad had this like shed that he used to do, like tinker around blacksmithing or something. And so Joe turned to Gwen turning into Joe's personal gym and he would make his own bullets out there. He had this whole thing, like, like an armory. So I went out there to the back and I walked into the barn. It was like a little barn. And, you know, he goes, walk in.

[00:28:27] And he tells me, you know, just to come, he's like at this wooden workbench. And he picks up this Creedmoor sniper round. It's a big sniper round. And he puts it on the, on the table. I don't, I'm trying to like do it with my hand. And he just says in a really, he didn't say anything else. He didn't say hi. He just says, this is what I'm going to take you out with. Oh, he said, this is what we're going to, he goes, this is what we're going to take you out with from 1200 yards. And that's it.

[00:28:57] He didn't say anything else. What did you say? Nothing. I walked, I just walked out and I went back and I went to lunch with my dad. And I told my dad and he was like, this guy's such an asshole, you know. Jesus. But that's all he said. That's all he said. Because they knew though, I had been writing in a secret laptop on a journal for years, but they couldn't find it, but they had seen some of it.

[00:29:23] But they knew I was like going one day to do something, you know, go to media. That's what I mean. Because at this point you hadn't. I had not. No. No. You had your own family and you were living off the property. I felt like I was in a prison at that point. Yeah. Well, you were. But I was just, I was taking stock of everything. Every meeting I'm taking secret recordings. I'm always taking notes. I'm working against them, but I'm playing the part.

[00:29:52] Because I still get up on stage and sing worship songs and pretend. I had two lives. You were Pimo. Have you gotten to that part in the book yet? Physically in, mentally out? I probably like, whatever. Pimo. Yeah. Pimo. It's a thing. I mean, it happens. And sometimes people don't leave just because they're in the community and they know where else to go. That's exactly what I was. I was Pimo. Exactly. Yeah. So at that point, so, you know, you have the plane crash.

[00:30:20] Tell us about where you were when you heard about that, by the way. I'm sure people have asked you that and whatever you wanted to share. That must have been, I don't know. I can only imagine. It's May 29th, wasn't it? Yes. May 29th. That's right. That's my birthday. That's why he remembers. Oh, I like that, Nippy. I thought you might. Right. So I was driving down the interstate, that day, driving down the interstate.

[00:30:47] I get a call from my sister that, you know, she's getting calls from people that were on the ground. And she puts me and my ex on the phone and she's like, oh, you know, the plane went down. And she's like, they're, you know, they're dead. She knew it right off the bat. And so I basically like, even as she's talking, I'm like, what's going to happen with Remnant? That was my first thought.

[00:31:15] But Elizabeth, well, I immediately realized Elizabeth had already been placed in leadership instantaneously. They had this plan in place for years to do this, to put her in that position. So, I mean, within the first hour of them down, Elizabeth is already getting treated like the leader. The assistants that were Gwens are now reporting to her.

[00:31:41] So she's already, they've already got security guys going to Percy Priest Lake, getting, you know, real time intel and on the phone with Elizabeth, updating her constantly, unbeknownst to me. So I realized that was going on. And I think my first thought, I mean, my first thought was actually a form of gratefulness. And I said this to Phil Williams, and I've said it to people, I never cried. I never have cried about it.

[00:32:11] It was actually happiness. You know, because like I said, Joe had just threatened me two months before. And Gwen was just a monster. It was the witch's dead in my mind. And I remember calling my dad, walking outside and just calling him and letting him know, because the news started, it started showing up on the news everywhere. The very first conversation we had was, was it a suicide? Did Joe do it on purpose?

[00:32:39] But, you know, I'll be honest, I don't know if I want to get into that because it's tricky stuff. Yeah. There was an NTSB investigation and they, you know, decided that it was pilot error. And he had, he didn't have a whole lot of experience if I remember correctly, right? He did have experience, but he wasn't qualified to fly that specific Cessna, that citation. It's not like he didn't lack a commercial license, but he, I think he lacked that rating for,

[00:33:09] because that was like, he was brand new to the, it was an advanced type aircraft for him. So it was moving too fast, right? He was moving too fast, too overconfident with that. But anyway, it was that, but that to me though, when that happens, I, you know, we realized that nothing's ever going to be the same in remnant again. You know, I had, I had had so much abuse from a lot of these people that I just didn't have any emotions.

[00:33:39] There was no grief. So I was just thinking what's going to happen with remnant. I was happy, you know, I never expected that to happen, but so then Elizabeth takes over the church and, you know, I see an opening essentially. I see this being like, after everything that had happened, keep in mind, I'd been followed for years by the security teams. I had been treated like the black sheep.

[00:34:07] I knew even with, when passing with Elizabeth taking over, I'm not going to be given my salvation from them. I knew that was not going to come. I was not going to, I still not going to be free. And my wife was wanting out of our marriage at that point. And I knew, you know, Elizabeth was Queen Elizabeth now, basically. And I'm like the rubber stamp brother, you know, that's going to be watched. And I'm still going to be this black sheep.

[00:34:37] And I'm methodically being pushed out of any, you know, major decision making. I just knew I needed to leave at that point. That was to me, there always would talk about this to ex-members, always felt like there's like a window. That's just the best way I can come up with it. But like, there's a window of a time to leave to me in Remnant. And maybe it applies to other places too. But I would always tell people, look for the window.

[00:35:04] Because it's going to be this one little time that everything lines up and the stars align. And you've got a chance. And you could see it happen. A lot of times it's impossible in your mind. With family or all the circumstances. But just every now and then there's this one little spot and something will happen and it'll trigger it. And you have this window and then that's your opportunity. And so take it when you see the window. And that to me was my window to get out.

[00:35:34] I have goosebumps. The writing was on the walls to me, you know. And there was one particular night that me and my ex were having a very difficult time. And even now with Gwen's estate, she wasn't supporting me. I was like, Elizabeth is ripping us off. You know, the remnant attorneys are all siding with Elizabeth and you're going to side with.

[00:35:59] I'm trying to protect our family and our children and make it equal, you know, help our family out too. And she would just walk. She wouldn't talk to me. She just goes, I don't want to deal with it. And I was on my own. And I knew my fate was sealed with the new regime. And so Erin, my wife, she sided with Elizabeth on everything, just like she did with Gwen. And it was one-sided.

[00:36:27] Everything was always one-sided against me. And the estates, the attorneys, everything. I could literally show people something on a piece of paper, black and white, proving that Elizabeth is lying or something. And they didn't want to see it. They walk off. Wow. And so that was the time. That was the circumstance. And that just happened to be my window. It was that fight.

[00:36:55] It was getting the false accusations. The leadership treating me like that in a plane crash. So then I take off, you know, to get a rental house. I'm sleeping on the... I resigned from... Well, I resigned from the church. I knew I had to resign. And I take off. And it was like a nightmare, to be honest, that time, that month. You know, I lost contact with everybody. And I knew it was going to happen.

[00:37:23] I had seen it happen with so many people in Runnet. So I did have a little advantage because I knew these things were going to happen ahead of time. But it still is not fun. I lost contact with absolutely everybody that I've been around for 25 years. And my phone, you know, it went from getting hundreds of texts a day to like zero. And, you know, maybe like the trash company texted me or something. You know, there's no contact.

[00:37:52] And there's no... I moved to a rental house in Spring Hill, which is south of Nashville. And it was not great. I was sleeping on the air mattress for several months. And there happened to be rats in the house. And so I slept with a machete next to me at night on the floor because there were rats. And there was this guy that owned it, this Chinese guy. And they didn't tell me. So there were rats.

[00:38:19] And so I like put towels underneath my door with like weights on them trying to keep the rats out. I would chase him at night with my machete. This is not good for PTSD, by the way. But I was having to deal with Elizabeth's remnant attorneys at that point because Gwen... So now Gwen's estate is kicking up after the crash. You know, I'm kicked out. I leave slash I'm kicked out because they're making it impossible for me. They were saying...

[00:38:47] I had one of the leaders in remnant, you know, saying we have to address the elephant in the room type thing when I was like in the sanctuary in front of people. You know, just there were lots of things going on. But they had already played... Elizabeth was already going to be the leader. Gwen had already worked on that for years. And it's... I call it the women's movement. It was going to be a woman. Her daughter. Bloodline. And so this was just the progression.

[00:39:13] And we also were getting sued at the same time for $10 million for a wrongful death lawsuit. One of the families of one of the girls that died on the plane crash, they were suing us for $10 million. But so I'm in... You know, and I'm getting a divorce at the same time. And I'll lose everybody. So I'm going through this horrific phase. So, you know, I... One time, I think I have a heart attack in this place. Because at night, I'm sitting there like my kids are going through my mind. I'm in the dark.

[00:39:43] And, you know, I don't know what's going to happen, really. And HBO was about to come out. That was another thing. The documentary was just about to come out. Oh, that's right. So there was all these things happening at the same time. And I was hearing from people saying it's going to be really bad for me. They're like, oh, man, Michael's about to get nailed on this documentary. So I started... I was eating so messed over, my hair was falling out. Like in clumps from stress. It was just falling out.

[00:40:13] So I checked myself into Williams County ER one night because I thought I'd had a heart attack. I didn't. I just thought I did. And I remember the doctor. He was a super smart guy. And he... I'm like, this is a heart attack. He goes... I go, so stress can be physical. I said, this is physical pain in my chest. Physical. And he goes, yes, stress can be physical pain. And that was the first time I ever had heard that.

[00:40:43] I didn't know that. I thought stress was just some... I don't know. Abstract emotion. Yeah. Abstract emotion, right. And it's not... Stress is physical pain. You have to process it. And so that's going on. And I was thinking HBO is about to make me look like a terrible person. I was dreading that. I did have thoughts of suicide at that time period. And that's... I started... I went through a phase where I stopped turning on the lights in the house.

[00:41:13] And that's when I wrote a song. I called it Down. I was going through a real deep depression at that point. I was just using candles, essentially. Just light candles and to write or something. And then, like I said, I wrote that song down, which... It's on my YouTube. I've never put it up. Like, it's not out there, but it's on my YouTube channel. We'll check it out. Michael, I'm just going to share this with you. I don't know if it's going to help, but it helped me in a way of, like, kind of putting the thing into perspective.

[00:41:40] I remember having a conversation with my dad when we were going through our shit. And I was like, yeah, it's like, I'm experiencing, like, depression. And my dad goes, yeah, well, no shit, nippy. Maybe. And I don't think he meant it in a way to be, like, you know, like, dismissive. But it was like, yeah, you just went through this. Like, if that's not going to cause you stress, what will? And it gave me permission.

[00:42:08] It gave me permission to feel it. Because you... I don't know. You never know how you're going to respond to situations until it happens. Right? You can have an intellectual understanding of yourself, but it's not exposed to you until it happens. And then when you're experiencing it, it doesn't make it any better. You know? Right. I love that. I mean, I love that. And I feel like that's so good. Because it's like... I think a lot of times, too. I mean, I think maybe men don't get told that enough, possibly.

[00:42:38] Like, it's okay. That was my dad's, like, way of saying, yeah, it's okay. And this is a valley. And, you know... Right. The peaks and valleys, it's the if poem. It's like you treat those two imposters just the same, right? And so, you know, this too shall pass. Well, it's same with the peaks, right? You're, you know, oftentimes you peak and you come back down. And as long as it's a stock market and it keeps going up, you know, you can turn those valleys into wisdom.

[00:43:06] It sounds like you're on your way to doing that and have done that. Well, there was one other thing, too, that I've never really mentioned. I didn't mention to Phil Williams. It's not on the documentary. But I also had a stalker, too, at the same time. Shit. That was trying to kill me. So, she tried to kill me, like, five times. What? So, during... When I was in Remnant, Remnant Security would stop her and get her arrested in coordination with Burnwood PD. So, when I leave, I lose my protection there. So, she's...

[00:43:35] Who is this girl or woman? What? Her name is Jackie Furlong. Jackie's a great name for a stalker. She's, you know, she's been stalking me since 2010. What the... Still? What was your deal? She still is. She just lost her mind. She was actually a member of Remnant. That's... I always tell them, like, I wish that had made it in the documentary, but... She was a member of Remnant Fellowship Memphis. And she was married and had four kids. I had never met her.

[00:44:05] And she, of course, she was a gun collector and a knife collector. And I never met her. And we actually have proof of that because she started writing me letters. And she started losing her mind. And she started seeing, like, messages and codes in Gwen's sermons. And also, like, in my song lyrics. And she started feeling like God was telling her that me and her were supposed to be married.

[00:44:33] So, you know, I remember hearing from a security guy, you know, that she was... The night that Gwen found out, she stayed to be... She was, like, in council with Gwen at the Remnant. She came to Nashville and was in council with her in her office on a Wednesday night service. And Gwen walks outside to this guy, who was also a police officer. And Gwen walks over to the security guard. And she, like, digs her nails into the guy's arm. And she's like, this woman is crazy.

[00:45:02] And so, she's like, you know, walk me to my car. Get me out of here. And so, then Remnant starts, you know, giving her orders of protection to stay away from Remnant. To stay away from me. And... But no matter what, it wouldn't work. She would keep coming back. And it didn't matter how many times she got arrested. She's been arrested 15 times. And all of her criminal charges or convictions are because of me.

[00:45:30] And so, now she's at the level of especially aggravated stalking. And so, eventually, it kept... Like, one of the times, like, we were going to Denver for some Remnant event. She books a ticket for the same flight at B&A. And, you know, she shows up. She's got a... One of her children has Down syndrome. She leaves the kid in the car out front because she thinks she won't be arrested if she brings a Down syndrome kid with her.

[00:45:59] Like, she's using it like a human shield. Wow. So, she gets on the line and the police have to come arrest her at the airport because she was trying to get on the same flight as me and my ex. She sent me letters. Every day, she's writing letters. And Remnant, for many years, I didn't know about it until... Because Remnant was intercepting them from me. Because they thought I had done something wrong. They thought I had, like, had an affair or something and she was mad. So, finally, one day, you know...

[00:46:28] But these are, like, not letters. 60 to 100 page letters. She'll write them from prison or whatever. She's been in mental institutions several times. She's been in Rolling Hills, which is here in Franklin. But so they were screening her for those first several years in Remnant. Because Gwen, they were suspecting, you know, me. And they never explained it to me. And then one day, thankfully, she finally mentions in one of these big letters. She goes, I know we've never met. In her letter.

[00:46:58] And it proves it right there. And so that same day, the head of Remnant Security, he walked into my wait-on office. And I'm sitting at the desk. And he's, like... You can tell he's, like, frustrated. He's mad. He drops this huge pile of letters right in front of me. And he lets me know about the stalker. I'm like, what? I didn't... I was too smart to have some sort of angry action. I didn't do... I was already playing the game. So I was like, oh, my goodness. And anyway, I was like, whoa, like, thanks for letting me know.

[00:47:27] And so the security would be following her when she gets out of jail. And so what she would do, she would get out of jail. And she would immediately go get a hotel room. And she would buy something to look like my wife, like a wig. She would wear a wedding dress and socks. And so she got arrested at Remnant. She would go to drive right to Remnant or wherever she thought I was. And they would just... Remnant security is tracking her.

[00:47:54] So they're following her, which is kind of shady in itself because they did that to other people like me. But so anyway, she would drive and then they would coordinate with Brentwood police. And they would be there just to pick her up when she shows up. And she would be arrested. She was arrested with knives in her car. And she was going to kill me with knives. And she, you know... And I remember talking to a detective in Brentwood. And he said, female stalkers like to kill with knives. Men stalkers kill with guns.

[00:48:23] So I didn't know that. I've learned a lot about stalking since then. And she's unstable. She's delusional. Being arrested means nothing. And like she was wearing socks. And she told the police, she goes, I wear socks because I know the jail floors are cold. So she's been arrested that many times. So this recent time, she was in prison for nine years. She served nine years. Eventually finally got to that point.

[00:48:48] And then when she got out, which was the same year my dad died, 2023, just two or three years ago, she finally got out of prison. And then what does she do? She drives straight to, you know, Franklin, gets a hotel. She starts writing me on social media immediately. She just got out of prison. Like it was an 11, nine year sentence.

[00:49:15] So I'm having to go to court during this time too without security. So once she's out. So that added to, I guess my whole point was that. You were stressed. It added to the stress. It was nerve wracking. No wonder you thought you were having a heart attack. That's even the stalker portion of your life. Would be enough. It's enough to, you know, create stress on your heart and your heart palpitations or whatever it was.

[00:49:43] In some situations, if someone's listening and they're in a situation where there's domestic violence or cult of one with an abusive partner, it's the same kind of thing. Like have your passport ready. Like have a bag, a hidden bag packed so that if that window does come, you can leave. That's really good advice. We definitely had a window. We jumped. We had one window. Yeah, we jumped through it pretty quickly. It was a portal. Yeah, a portal to another, to reality. And look at the results. I mean, look what happened because y'all did that. Yes. No. We're lucky.

[00:50:12] We're a little bit lucky along the way too. Yes. Look at all the things that have happened because y'all, you know, have been on the vow and done all that stuff. I mean. Thanks, Michael. Think of all the people that have been, all the awareness that's been raised, that's been raised because of it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I think that's, and you as well. I think that's really good advice. We'll make sure that's the sound bite. So you have been kind of, you've been sort of struggling at it alone for a bit and you're very much alone.

[00:50:43] Shortly after all this happened, you meet Ken. He brings you to CrimeCon. I suggest a therapist. We keep in touch. How are you now? Like, where is your life now? I noticed you're wearing black and you've got black paint all around you. Are you still in the dark hole? Are you coming out of the dark hole? I am. Black to me is more of something. It's a symbolic thing. I have talked about it.

[00:51:11] It's more of a persona of somebody that's just being ready for false religious people. But I would say how I am now, it's, yes, as far as I'm on the track of, let's say, I'm going against the remnant still. And I, you know, I don't want to explain this like coming out of a hole. I don't, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of it. I really am.

[00:51:41] Supposedly I'm free from remnant, you know, and the people, all these women and people monitoring me and all these things. I still feel like I keep hearing these, these women's accusations sometimes. Like in your head? Mm-hmm. And it's depression. It's been something I've had to tackle. It has, there has been dark times. I mean, to be honest, I think honesty is the best policy.

[00:52:10] And therapy, you know, it's helping. And I've started taking sertraline. Is that an antidepressant? Mm-hmm. Zoloft. And I'm trying to, you know, increases your serotonin, right? But somehow, I feel like there's a part of me, and this may sound weird, but there's a part of me on the inside that wants to fight that happiness. And I don't even, like, like, I almost don't want to feel better.

[00:52:38] And I don't know how to describe that. But I sometimes think, like, the way I describe it to Dr. Laura Anderson is, I don't want to lose this fire. If that makes sense. Like, you're afraid that if you're happy, then you'll lose the urge to fight? Maybe. Yeah. I get that. Or, you know, people, sometimes I've had people say, you know, you could be on a beach drinking margaritas and things of that nature.

[00:53:05] I don't know fully why I'm still doing this, but I feel like it's something that I'm supposed to be doing. Exposing Remnant, you know, this campaign that I'm doing on. I don't feel like it's a righteous. I'm not saying I'm righteous. It's not a righteous campaign. Not a crusade. But it has, it's been effective. And, you know, I'm trying to keep a decent relationship with my kids.

[00:53:31] I feel like it is decent, and they're still in Remnant, and I love them very much. It's awkward sometimes, and I always try to make it clear, like, the day you want to talk, I'll be here. You know, anything you need. And I know it's confusing for children whose parents are not in, you know, a church or cult or vice versa, and they're in the bubble.

[00:53:56] But I'm holding out hope that they're going to find a way, just like, you know, Gwen, circling back around to Gwen and my dad. Remember when I said she's always bad-mouthing him to us all the time? Yeah. Behind his back? Well, guess what? Guess who I ended up becoming best friends with in the end? It's my dad. And people have a way of seeing through things.

[00:54:26] Yes, absolutely. It finds a way, you know. Like, they use the Jurassic Park movie line, you know, life finds a way or something. It finds, truth finds a way, you know, the reality finds a way. Totally. Totally. And as far as, like, Sarah, the Wichita, like, healing, I know I've joked about, like, the word, like, my least favorite word is heal, or I use it like a curse word or something.

[00:54:46] And I say, like, it's a difficult situation for me because, like, in my mind, I don't know if I would ever want to heal like some people talk about it. Mm-hmm. And I know this is just me being brutally honest. No, you should be. Okay. It's not that I don't mind, wouldn't mind a break from these situations, because I'm still going at it with Remnant. Still. It's a choice, basically. But it scares me to distance myself from it.

[00:55:16] Partially because I think I'm doing a big disservice to people that are still there. Partially because of my kids. I just don't know sometimes the interest in healing is what I, I've tried to psychoanalyze myself, believe me. And I've talked to Dr. Laura about it. Like, like I said, it's keeping that fire. This episode would not be possible without the support of our sponsors. Let's hear what they have to offer.

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[00:58:57] Did you skip over all the ads? We hope you didn't. Thank you to our sponsors and thank you for listening. Now, let's resume our culty combo. I just want to share something with you and take it for what it's worth. This is just my experience. But I think it's an interesting metaphor. I was listening as you were talking as to that choice. And I realize also the word heal has a Christian meaning to it that we don't have that. Like, I'm going to heal you. The Lord will heal you. Or salvation is probably all mixed up in that.

[00:59:27] Is that right? It's possible. Yeah. Maybe I wish there was another word for it. Yeah. Let's forget healing. Because I think, and you'll read about this in the book, the term loaded language. Healing means something different. So let's not use that word. Okay. That's one thing. Second, again, for what it's worth, take it or leave it. I had a brand on my body, as you know. I had Keith Raniere's initials on my body. And I kept that on there for a while.

[00:59:54] And I tried to like, you know, my version of getting better or healing was to like try to get it removed. You know, I was putting cream on it to make it flat and make it go away. And at the same time, I wanted it there because I wanted to show people what had been done to me. And I felt like people weren't really outraged until they saw that because like, otherwise I'm a pretty, like, I would have, like, what's the harm? It was the cover of your book. It was the cover of my book. Yeah. And, but like, if you looked at me, otherwise I'm fine. Right?

[01:00:23] Like I'm alive. I'm fine. To get people to feel how wrong it was, what was done to me, I had to show them the brand, physical abuse. And the reason I say that is because I feel like there were times when I, like, I was trying to move on or heal or whatever the fuck. But if I, if I did an interview, if I wasn't like showing how pain, pained I was and how hard it was, then like, it was incongruous, incongruous. What's the word? Incongruous. Incongruous.

[01:00:51] Like it wasn't like, it's a hard thing to, to say, Hey, this isn't right. And you know, you need to stop what you're doing. Remnant church, Vanguard, whatever it is that we're calling out. And also be happy. Like, I think that's what I'm, as I'm hearing you talk, it's like, how do you move on and do normal things and like take your kids to baseball and also call out abuse? Like, it's just, I don't have an answer for you. You know what I mean? But I'm just saying to you, like, I understand. It's not light work. Yeah.

[01:01:20] Like what you're doing is, is it might feel like it's not consistent to like go have a margarita on a beach and then be like, and fuck you remnant church. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't, maybe that doesn't, I don't know, whatever it is. I, all I know for us moving on was like taking our kids to baseball and, and, and, and the day to day that like our kids in many ways kind of forced us to put that other stuff aside.

[01:01:48] And also we had a different type of, you know, the FBI stepped in, Keith went to jail. You don't, you don't have that, that kind of closure. Different closure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think a closure would allow that possibly for you. I just. Which is going to take time. It's going to take time. And also there may come a time and you might want to decide this for yourself or with your, with Dr. Laura, but like, you know, when is it enough? When have you done your part? You know, like, when do you say, okay, I've warned everybody.

[01:02:18] And you may have already. You may have. Yeah. You'd be like, I rang the alarm. Everyone knows. There's been a lot of people that have left because of my social media. And that's. Yeah. Like. Interviews like this. To write down their names. Take a look at the list. One friend of us said you're going to have to step over bodies on the way out. And that's kind of the turn. You just have to leave some people behind. You know. I just want that for you. You know, that's. I, like I, I want, I want to come over there and, and paint that room like hot pink or just even white.

[01:02:48] Oh. Oh. Oh, you better not. Whoa. One step at a time. One step at a time. Okay. I won't do that. But it's, you know what I mean? Like, I'm obviously not going to do that, but it's just, I want, just know that what you surround yourself with is important. And you're just even looking at you. And I've known, you know, ever since I met you, your dark glasses. And I know it's a persona and it's partly to show, but I also just wanted to give you permission

[01:03:16] to like, let that go at some point. Just as a friend who's been through it. Noted. I wish I could give you a big hug. I just, it's just, man, you just, but you've fucking been through it. You've been through it, man. Like, it's so hard. Things like this do help though. Does it? Like getting to talk about it. In some ways, this interview is therapy for me.

[01:03:48] And so for that, you know, thank you. Thank both of you. These opportunities, you know, to speak, to say something, because I really couldn't say anything for so long. I'm not that type, but it does, these things, this does do something. Therapy does do something. Remnant would have said therapy has no value. Just get your therapy from Gwen and her leader's counsel. Of course, because they wanted full control.

[01:04:18] They wanted control over your mind. But she was, it was a fear that people would find value in it. And there is value in people learning about these things, like your book. And it is valuable. It is worth it. So this is helpful to me. I'm so happy to hear that. And I would love to know what you think. There's two appendixes at the end of the book that are specifically about, like, how to deal

[01:04:47] with the media, how to write a cult memoir, things that are very niche for a small group. You're part of the group, the survivor group. So I hope you get to the end. Well, I will say this, too, about the book, too. Like, if people that are in Remnant still or that have left Remnant, if any of them are still maybe struggling with how they feel about Remnant or Gwen or all these confusing feelings,

[01:05:14] I do recommend the book because, you know, I think it will maybe help take away those doubts that they have from a place like Remnant, you know, which it is a cult. So I would suggest it in that manner. Yeah. Are you in touch with a lot of survivors? Oh, yeah. Every day. Well, send them the link. I mean, I'd be so curious to know what people have thought who didn't go through a bunch

[01:05:43] of, you know, cult education or weren't talking to a therapist in reverse of the book. Letting them know. So I am going to let people know about it. In fact, I'm going to post it on social media. Thanks so much. I'm going to send you an easy link to post so that they can just grab it easily. And it will be on Audible soon. I know that one of the reasons we wanted to do Audible is because we know that a lot of cult survivors can't, myself included, I don't read. I just, I don't, I can't sit still long enough. So that's also, I just sent you the text. That's something that happens.

[01:06:12] We're hoping the Audible will be something that will help people who just want to hear it. I just had one more thought. I know like there's a certain type of, you were born into this, so this might not be a thing for you, but I had a certain zealotry around building NXIVM and it was very mission oriented where, you know, saving the world. And there is a flip side to that often on the other side. That's that I was just as mission oriented on the other side in terms of like saving the

[01:06:42] world, but saving the world from cults. So I feel like that was something that I had to kind of like check myself on the other side to make sure I wasn't, you know, not taking care of myself or, you know, it's the same kind of drive. Yeah. And I would love to hear more of that, you know, if you do more things on that. I was in a position that I did know about the guidance system and a lot of other people didn't.

[01:07:07] And I did know about the security team abuses and all the stuff, the counsel going on, the text. So I did, I do feel a, or at least I did, I felt an obligation. I felt like there, I felt like something bigger was causing this. Like I was in this position all of a sudden to speak out because so many people are scared to speak out. That's the one thing I would just, you know, HBO, the documentary, they frame it as when

[01:07:37] Gwen died, all of a sudden, all these people were free to share their stories and reach out to like now Capello. And I don't see that freedom. I think they're still scared because Elizabeth took right over the regime. People are being kicked out for talking. So anyway, I. Well, if anyone happens to listen to this, who's on the fence, what would you want them to know? If anybody, you know, listening that they, maybe they don't subscribe to everything that

[01:08:07] I say, you know, maybe about the women being leaders in remnant or the women's movement, or maybe they don't subscribe to the, they don't think it was as bad as what I say. I've been wanting to say these things for so many years about remnant, how a place like this, it's not to be trifled with what happened with Gwen, with way down all those millions of

[01:08:32] people in the eighties and nineties and the eating disorders and all of the abuse that has happened since then. And then remnant don't take it too lightly. I don't think it's something, you know, people, I think they've started saying, you know, like there's a cult on there, you know, everywhere now, right? It's there's so many cults out there. Don't take it too lightly. It's not something to just ignore because I do worry that these things can be repeated.

[01:09:03] All of these things can be repeated and the dangerous situations, the teachings, the abuses, it's happened before. And, you know, Nippy said it, it's happened many times before. It could have, it will happen again. And people need to pay attention. I believe if they're listening, pay attention to what X members say, X remnant members say, pay attention to these interviews, pay attention to what y'all are saying, pay attention to the cult experts. Don't write it off.

[01:09:32] Pay attention to the documentary. Even if it's not your cup of tea, listen, pay attention to it. Take it seriously. I'm still, you know, like we're talking about moving on healing. I'm still, I guess, technically on this move that I'm doing what I'm doing. I hope that I see the day that remnant doors are closed. And there's, I think there's a lot of these pockets of people that have taken Gwen's stuff out. They're out there.

[01:10:02] And I just want people to be mindful of it. I don't necessarily think my story is a big happy story. It may not be the happy ending, perfect story like a movie that people, you know, want to see sometimes. Sometimes, but at least we can learn from things. And just like NXIVM would not have been anything close to like a perfect situation for you and

[01:10:31] Nippy with Keith Raniere. But people can learn from it. And I just hope people take something out of all this. That they're not, it's not, this isn't just, it's a podcast, but it's not just entertainment. Right. It's a learning thing. This is a big opportunity though. I really appreciate y'all doing this. And I appreciate, like I said, when I got to meet y'all at the crime con, you know, y'all are celebrities there. People are lining up to meet y'all.

[01:11:01] And, but y'all were so welcoming to me because at that point I really had lost everybody, both parents, everything, everybody was dead, you know, gone. And I really appreciate, you know, you, you like texting me and you're like, you need to get this to Dr. Laura and you need to do this and this. And Nippy said the same thing. Y'all have been really super cool about this. And I really, it's very much appreciated. And your podcast is appreciated and your new books appreciated. Thank you.

[01:11:32] So much mutual appreciation. We posted on our Patreon this morning to see if anyone had questions and all, everything that they asked, we've covered in terms of your, what people wanted to know. But Marianne wrote that many people are rooting for you. And I think that's maybe what you don't get the feedback of. And I think you will after this episode drops and we'll make sure to collab with you and stuff on your social media so you can see that. But I, I really do hope that this gives you a little wind in your sails, you know, to

[01:12:01] do whatever is right for you. And if that's staying exactly where you are and right now, then that's for you. And if you decide to paint your room, I'll come over with some overalls and a bag of paint or can of paint. You're not making it into the black headquarters with a can of pink, hot pink paint. That's all I can do. Look at my thermos. Look at my nails. You'll trigger all the security systems. I don't think pink's your color. I don't think pink's your color.

[01:12:28] But I'm just, you know, I want, I want to, you know, I want to uplift, I want to help uplift you. And I know that you're on that trajectory. I know you mean that. Yeah. But that's, that's my journey. A really big point that people aren't going to get anywhere, but especially even my cult recovery space, like a lot of us that chose our cults or, you know, signed up for something. You never signed up for it. You never had that choice. You never had a life away from a narcissist.

[01:12:58] And I think, you know, Gwen's hair is an indication of her, you know, how that grew. That's a metaphor, right? For that inflation of her head and her power. And it sounds like she was like that from the beginning. Her hair had a mind of its own. Yeah. I'll add my own two cents to it. The hair knew the whole time. One thing I forgot to ask, and then we'll end on this note. I couldn't figure out how to watch it because there's always like, whatever, on my computer. But did you, what did you think of the Lifetime movie with Jennifer Grey?

[01:13:27] Oh, Starving for Salvation? Yeah. How was that for you? I thought they did a fantastic job. Oh, good. I'm so happy to hear that. Well, the story is such a long, there's so much to the whole story, really, with Way Down and then Remnant and Gwen and the plane Joe and the plane crash. It's a lot. I thought they did a good job putting that into a two-hour movie. I mean, I may go watch it tonight again.

[01:13:55] I will say I especially love the part where the guy who plays me is like, gets into tiffs with Gwen. Wait, I have to look. It gets a little chippy. I have to look it up on, I'm just looking it up on IMDb because, I don't know if you know this, but it was shot in Vancouver. So when it was being shot. Well, it was a Canadian director, John LeCure, I believe. Yeah, I don't know the director. John LeCure. But I know a bunch of my friends from Vancouver in it. Gabriel Miller, his old friend of mine, played Emily. Joe Cobden.

[01:14:25] You know some people in it? Oh my God. Joe Cobden and I went to theater school. She played Gary. Karen Klish played Natasha. We did shows together years ago. Oh no, it was filmed in Montreal. Not as if it was from Montreal, Vancouver. Who's the guy that played Joe? Because I thought he did like, so, he did such a good job. Vincent Walsh, I don't know him, but like. He nailed Joe. That was so good. Oh, I don't know Vincent Walsh. Jennifer Gray though. I mean, Jennifer Gray is like. She nailed it. I can't believe the fact that the woman who was in Dirty Dancing now plays my mother on a movie.

[01:14:57] Why don't you put that as a. That's a soundbite. That is a soundbite. I have to write that down. The girl who was in Dirty Dancing plays my mother on the movie. I'm writing that down right now. That is so great. So, Joe Cobden, who played Gary. I don't know who Gary is, but he's an old friend of mine. Gabriel Miller. Oh my goodness. Karen Klish. So, you know all these, a lot of these people own this movie. Yeah. There's like acting friends of mine from when I was an actor. Like. Holy cow. That's so awesome. Yeah.

[01:15:25] But the fact that the girl from Dirty Dancing plays your mother is just like. Of course she would. But I also watched it at a very bad point in my healing journey. So, maybe I'll give it a fresh watch. Why don't you get a glass of wine and give it one more shot? How about this? Because this episode, I think everyone's going to love it.

[01:15:53] We could do a watching our Lifetime movies episode together. A reaction video. Yeah. I don't know how to do that. Technologically. I don't know how. The sex scene with Gwen and Joe. Is there one? You get. I don't want to. No, I'm not going to give away everything. Okay. Better watch it. I had to be drinking heavily when I watched it for the first time. Oh. That's tough. Sorry to admit that to people. I couldn't do it.

[01:16:22] But it's when there is a scene. I'll let you experience it. When she's like in her negligee and Joe comes in and is Tarzan thong or something. Oh my God. And there's like a sex scene. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is not happening. But anyway. This is your life. Embrace it. Oh my goodness. But Michael, this has just been such a pleasure to talk to you. And I'm glad that we could, you know, finally do this.

[01:16:51] And it was the right time. You know, we were here and we were extended that offer from the beginning. And I feel like this is the right time. I can't wait to do the reaction to the Lifetime movies. Oh, that's going to be. Oh, we could kill that. We could totally kill that. We are building a YouTube studio in here. Like, well, YouTube, like a place to feel like to actually film properly. So maybe when we get back from our summer vacation, come to Atlanta. We'll set up a TV. We'll get some wine.

[01:17:19] We'll watch it and we'll just do it in person maybe. Oh, no. That's. Is that scary? I'm almost scared of what stuff I would say. But, okay. You don't have to think. Don't think about it now. Just something for down the road. Yeah, I don't want to be any more traumatized. Okay, but that sounds, that's crazy. What an idea. A reaction video. Who knew? Yeah. Think about that. Until then, thank you for your time.

[01:17:47] Thank you for trusting us with your story. Bye, everybody. Thanks for joining us on A Little Bit Cult-y. All right, everybody. That was part two with Michael Shamblin Black. Michael, thank you for your time and for trusting us. This was such a joy to do this with you and audience.

[01:18:17] We'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. And what else? The universe is going to take care of you, Michael. It already is. Got your back. That's my faith. Till next time on A Little Bit Cult-y.

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