Summer Bonus: Sarah & Nippy on Cults to Consciousness with Shelise Ann Sola (Part 1)

[00:00:00] Ich heiße Shannon Maldonado und bin die Gründerin von Yaoi, einem Geschenkeladen, der auf Kunstwerke und handgefertigte Objekte spezialisiert ist. Meine Wahl fiel auf Shopify, weil Shopify im Vergleich zu den anderen Plattformen, die ich getestet habe, mit am benutzerfreundlichsten war. Ich habe vor allem an die Zukunft gedacht. Alle Tools, die für die Auswertung von Verkaufszahlen wichtig sind, zum Beispiel von Lagerbeständen, findet man direkt im Dashboard. Starte jetzt einen kostenlosen Test auf Shopify.com.

[00:00:30] Das sind die Informations purposes only und nicht be considered legal, medical, oder mental health advice. Die views und opinions expressed do nicht necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast und sind nicht intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:59] We woke up from a cult. And that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:01:24] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a littlebitculty. Welcome to Season 8 of A Little Bit Culty. Happy summer, everybody. We are sharing a summer bonus.

[00:01:54] We had such a great time on Occult to Consciousness with past ALBC guest Shalise Anzola, and we thought we'd share that conversation with you right here on our feed. It was a real, no-BS chat about how people get pulled into high-control groups, how manipulation hides in plain sight, and why our book is basically the guide we wish we'd had when we were in the thick of NXIVM, and before and after. If you're a fan of ALBC, then you'll love Cults to Consciousness podcast.

[00:02:22] They're on YouTube as well as all audio platforms. Enjoy! Let us know what you thought of the episode, and have a great summer, everybody. You have a high price, $2,000, so you have to start justifying these things,

[00:02:48] and that psychological kind of inertia is what ultimately will get someone praising it at the end of five days. If I trusted my first instincts, I would have probably walked out on day one. Well, I think it's important to understand the kind of psychology he has, and what he understands about the human dynamic that you don't, and he understands your blind spots, and he's proactively looking for your blind spots and your areas of susceptibility, and there's nothing he doesn't feel entitled to.

[00:03:17] There's nothing that he doesn't have any sort of feeling that he shouldn't have access to, and he's willing to do anything to do it. Oh, you're in town. Are you going to reach out to Keith and ask him for a walk? So the women around him would get other women to reach out to him. He wasn't really doing that. They had that wound. In other words, the daddy wound, you know, and then here comes this guy who's like paying attention to them. And knew how to look for it. Knew how to look for it, and making them feel special,

[00:03:46] and valued, and love-bombed them, and seen, and heard, and all those things, and then basically said, I can help you with the things you struggle with, and offered a sexual relationship. So that's how he got these women. And for them, once you're at that point, they think that they're getting special teachings from the teacher, like, what an honor. I hope some of the women that had this done to them can come out and tell their stories. Allison Mack is... One of them. This is coming from someone who was pissed at her, you know,

[00:04:15] eight years ago, was, you know, ready to cast her out, just like everyone else. But if there's no Keith Raniere, Allison Mack's not a criminal. Mine is the only voice. What have I been doing? Lay down my autonomy. After that, it got very dark very quickly. Hey guys, my name is Shalise Anzola, and this is Cults to Consciousness,

[00:04:43] where we discuss leaving high-demand religions or organizations, and finding healing and independence through awareness and true individual sovereignty. If you're only listening, go to YouTube instead. Instead, there's three of us over here today, and we love it when you interact with a post. It's the best way to boost the algorithm, liking, sharing, commenting, leaving those words of encouragement for our guests who are bravely sharing their stories. You guys are probably already familiar with today's guests. If you are in the cultosphere at all, you probably have heard about a little bit culty,

[00:05:12] Sarah and Nippy, who came from the NXIVM cult. And today we were talking about their brand new book and everything that they have learned and been able to process, because hindsight, of course, is 20-20, through writing their book and through interviewing cult survivors like we do over here. So thank you so much for joining us again, Sarah and Nippy. Thanks so much for having us. Glad to be here. So happy to be here. Yeah. Our first book, our first interview since writing a book. I'm honored. The fun part. So this is the new book. Yes.

[00:05:41] Isn't she pretty? It's beautiful. And you guys have been writing this for, I think you said three years in the making, right? Three years since the idea and the proposal started to get worked out. Right, take shape. But I would say like, yeah, take shape. I'd say at least two years of pretty hard writing, though. And I think it's great because it really kind of encapsulates your channel, but also your own experiences. And it's a very comprehensive guide to, I don't know if you're in a cult or if something is at least a little bit culty,

[00:06:11] as you would say. And I think one of my favorite parts would be these checklists, the culty cheat sheets that you have with each chapter, because it really lays it out like, okay, if this wasn't clear, here is a very concise bullet point list of, do these check off with this group that I'm a part of, or potentially a part of, or thinking of joining. So I think it's a really great way for people to have an overview of high control and manipulation and coercive control,

[00:06:41] and really take a fine tooth comb over whatever group they're thinking of joining, or if they're already in one, and take a new view at it. And so that's what I wanted to do with your stories today. Great. Which I'm sure people are familiar with your stories. If you've seen The Vow Guys, seasons one, season two. And there was actually another documentary on NXIVM, right? Aside from HBO? We don't name it, but yes, there's one that exists. The doc that shall not be named.

[00:07:10] My point to say is, most people are aware of your stories. Yeah. Yeah. A big deal, because Keith Raniere, the cult leader, is currently still in prison. Correct. However, if you're not familiar with the story, we're just going to pretend that you're not, because we want to do a deep dive today, and then see everything that you've learned, Hindsight is 2020, about everything that you guys went through. So... Great. Man, let's just start at the beginning. And Nippy, thanks for joining us.

[00:07:39] I've had Sarah on a couple times, but this is the first time you've been on C2C. So thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm going to let him talk more, which I know that he'll appreciate. Okay. You extract the wisdom as you see fit. Oh, perfect. And one thought I just wanted to say quickly, before we continue about what you said about the checklist. One of the reasons we wanted to do that is that we felt, when we got out of NXIVM, that our PTSD was so bad. I think mine was worse, but anyway, it doesn't matter. I just couldn't read,

[00:08:08] and I did a lot of Audible and stuff like that, but we specifically wrote the checklist for people who just maybe need something really basic as well, if they can't necessarily get through the whole book. And the book is also designed for different people, like people who are in, people who are considering, people who are already out, need help healing. So it's sort of like a skip around. The checklist can be PDFs themselves. I was going to ask that. In the future, we can maybe have something. Yeah. I was going to ask if you had a,

[00:08:35] like a digital download where people could just download the PDF checklist of every chapter. Yeah. I think the demands and what we're going to have to pivot to, we'll kind of come out in the next four to six months. And we'll have something that's concise to what the demands are, I think would be the best way to do it. Yeah. But right now up front, we're consistently hearing that the checklists are great. Cause there's a lot of, there's a lot of content out there now, like things to channels like yours and ours and so many books and podcasts and docu-series. So like, how do you, you know,

[00:09:05] wade through it all when you're just shell shocked, right? So we're hoping that this will kind of condense it. Yeah. It can be overwhelming. Definitely. Especially when learning new terms that I'm sure we're going to go over today. People are like, I didn't even know that vocabulary or how to describe my experience until listening to podcasts. But if you don't have hours and hours and hours to listen to interviews, that's a really great way to simplify everything. For those who aren't familiar and haven't seen all of the coverage, can you just define NXIVM? Give an overview of what it actually is. Originally in 1998,

[00:09:34] it was started as executive success programs. And then Keith started maybe some other programs, like some companies, because he was big on creating companies, which I think ultimately ended up becoming shell companies. And to keep people busy. Yeah. And in 2003, the Forbes article came out. It was particularly targeting executive success programs. And the pivot after that was to call the organization NXIVM and executive success program would be, uh, NXIVM would be the umbrella company and executive success program would be one of the companies underneath the umbrella company.

[00:10:04] And NXIVM would be the entire company. And I think it was a way to throw off bad press about executive success programs. So you weren't signing up for executive success programs. You're now signing up for a NXIVM training. The idea of NXIVM was IVM, like planetarium or auditorium is a place. And NX was a place of learning. So the idea is he was doing some Greek like or Latin. But we found out later that NXIVM was something like the, uh, term for indentured servitude.

[00:10:34] All of his companies have like what we thought it was. And then what it actually was. Yeah. Like a little like perverted joke to himself. And there's others. And that he's pondering in jail. Yeah. He let him think about that in jail. But for people who've never heard of it in short, it was a personal professional development program is what we thought. And it was a place where you could come and you could be more successful and root out your limiting beliefs. Uh, we didn't say it was therapy, but it really was.

[00:11:01] It really was like a combination of a number of different types of therapeutic models mixed with some philosophy, mixed with some practical tools. Um, and those were our three types of modules. They were called philosophical modules, emotional modules, and practical modules. Eight modules. Yeah. And some of them were like straight. Now we know, like straight ripped out of NLP, neuro-linguistic programming. Some sucked. Some of my. Some of them really suck. Some of them are really helpful. Um, and I actually since learned that NLP also has super shady foundations. Sidebar,

[00:11:30] anyone listening wants to go down that rabbit hole, listen to mind games on iHeart with Alice Hines. She actually interviews Nancy Salzman. I have a little interview in there as well, but it's really fascinating because I used to be like, oh, it's based on NLP. Like NLP had a bunch of street cred. NLP is also sketchy as fuck. Am I allowed to swear on this? I forget. It's too late. Okay, good. If you want to edit it out. Yeah, no, it's fine. Just to skip ahead for anyone doesn't know. What I think that Keith's end game was,

[00:11:59] was to create something of value that would bring people in, have people stay, feel like they were in indebted to this program, to this philosophy, to him as the founder and then stay and help teach it. And he knew, and he even taught us like one in 10 students becomes a coach. One in 10 coaches becomes a proctor, which is the next level. Not everyone stays and devotes themselves to the company like we did. That's a special type of person. You can analyze my psychology if you want. Or I mean, we stayed and joined for different reasons,

[00:12:29] but you know, there's a certain mission orientedness similar with any religion as well. Like we're here to change the world. And that's, it's not just work on ourselves and become better people. We believe that if everybody had this technology red flag, that, you know, world leaders wouldn't bomb each other because we'd see each other as humans. It was like, it was designed to help people be not only more joyful and successful, but humanitarian. That was the mission. So there was the mission worldwide.

[00:12:59] There was our internal goals. And then there was like our community. So that's the short version of what ESP NXIVM was. Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder, our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the combination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research. Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups

[00:13:29] and how to avoid escape or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go-to resource, this is it. Available now on Amazon in print and as an ebook for Kindle. And yes, the audio book is coming soon. Narrated by us. Just search A Little Bit Culty and grab your copy. Do it. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening. Now let's resume our culty convo. Right.

[00:13:59] And it's something that you can find in almost every single cult, which is this greater purpose beyond yourself. Because most people join these things or stay in these things and raise their kids in these things because they want what's best for them, their family, and the world. They have this mission to help as many people as possible, which is why I always say, and you guys probably do too, let's not demonize people who are in these groups because they're the people who actually are trying to save the world in the best way that they know how with the information that they have.

[00:14:28] And most of them are truly kind hearted and want what's best for everybody. Yeah, absolutely. So let's get into the first part, which is how do you join a cult? So a lot of times we have on people who were born into things. And so it's a much different experience, similar experience throughout. But as far as joining, that's something that we don't come across as often. So I would love for you to dive more into what it was like to be recruited in,

[00:14:55] and then eventually how you guys were also recruiting into the group as well. Absolutely. I'm going to pass it over to you, Nip, because I... You know, it doesn't matter. I mean, I think the answers are kind of very similar. And I think one of the things that our book does really well is handle two different case-by-case scenarios because they are always case-by-case. And the hook is always going to be different for most people.

[00:15:19] And for me specifically, it was an old girlfriend that I still had feelings for that told me about it. So I was somewhat resistant to what she was saying. I even said, I'm not doing your cult at one point. And then she basically was pretty persistent with me. And she had known me, and I mentioned this in the book, she had known me since we were in high school. And I had books on all my heroes, Troy Aikman, John Elway, JFK. And she was talking about goal setting, and that was really what I wanted to be.

[00:15:48] I wanted to be a quarterback. And I just had my life set up and edited out that way. And she met me later on as an adult and kind of pulled the strings of like, this is how you're wired, and this is what I'm doing, and this is congruent with all the things that I remember when we dated. And I'll never know how much she leveraged the feelings that she knew I may have had. I'm sure there was a component of that in it as well. Regardless, a year and a half later, I found myself in training thinking it was weird,

[00:16:16] but not really having too many objections because I couldn't see everything. A lot of the things that I was feeling, I didn't have language for at the time and also weren't in front of me. So if someone's giving you a creepy vibe, but they're cordial and fine with you, it's hard to go, this is what the problem is. It's not explicit.

[00:16:43] That in conjunction with the fact that I'd find out other members of her family had done it, and her father had immense credibility to me. He was a brain surgeon, went to Yale, played football and hockey at Yale. So when she told me he did it, that was part of my vetting process. I had kind of handed off my vetting process to someone I respected, had an authority,

[00:17:09] and would probably be someone who would see the bad things that were there if they were there. And so it was a leap of faith in that regard. And then I was periphery involved for like a year and a half. So I was never all in, as it were. But I really liked the goal setting aspect of it. There was a lot of really, I was like, this is good. This needs to be, you know, for someone who's an actor and there's no real structure to it. I felt like this structure was great.

[00:17:36] And I remember going to an acting teacher who I would take classes with on a Friday. And then I'd go grab a train up to Albany to take these classes on goal setting. She's like, that's very impressive. Not a lot of actors do that. And I'd go, yeah, you need a structure. And she was like, so it was a lot of like positive energy around this because Albany was the only place that could take it at the time. And then, so, you know, about two years in, I kind of felt like, okay, I get the goal setting thing. I can do it on my own.

[00:18:03] The Forbes article that came out in 2003 calling it a cult, and Edgar Bronfman, he called it a cult. And I remember saying, I'm not going to spearhead this brigade. This isn't my fight. And the organization had given me what I wanted. And there was no kind of fuck you moment, excuse my language, with the organization. I was actually kind of felt bad that they were called a cult and didn't leave under bad terms.

[00:18:29] And, you know, it was acting, getting some work, you know, slowly building, you know, a career. I got cast in something in LA in 2005. And in Christmas of around 2005, you know, I went and took another training because I was like, oh, there's more curriculum? Cool. Because I kind of looked at it as like looking underneath the hood, you know, of your car. And you got to do it. It was like a gem for your goals. And I didn't want to be a part of the organization, but it did, to me, had some pretty good, valuable, introspective questions to ask yourself

[00:18:59] and see if you're on a trajectory that you want. And when I came back, came back, air quotes, I actually, it was Christmas of 2005, go back to LA. And I had met Mark Vicente in a training. We mentioned this in the book. He came out in 2006 when I was living in LA and cast me in a project to come back. And the organization was totally different. It had a lot of actors, directors, had a lot of Mexico. A lot of the AKA royalty of Mexico was in the training.

[00:19:26] And to me, it kind of transcended the negative press. And I always believe if you're accused of something, it's best to demonstrate that you're not that rather than defend yourself. And it seemed like NXIVM at the time or ESP at the time had done that and had grown in spite of the negative press. And the negative press was pretty substantial for Forbes articles calling you a cult. So that's ultimately what brought me back. But I didn't come back for Keith.

[00:19:53] So my journey is different in a lot of ways. And how I got kind of indoctrinated was different. It wasn't necessarily Keith. It was aspects of the curriculum. And then once I saw that it had transcended so many objections, I kind of suspended asking questions at that point and was loyal. And at my most indoctrinated was a defender of Keith. Until everything blew up.

[00:20:21] So that's a broad stroke of my journey. But I had a healthy skepticism. I came back. I always had an arm's length relationship with the organization, which I think is one of the things that allowed us to leave in the manner that we did. Also, may I add that when Nippy came back, I joined in the time that he was gone and then I was there. So, yes. Women. That'll do it. Got me in. Kept me in. It seems women. And got you out.

[00:20:47] I was going to say, there's a lot to talk about even in just that story. Thank you for sharing that. Which is, cults always start with something great. It's you guys who even say you don't join a cult, you join a good thing. There's always something that entices people. And it's a boil the frog situation where you don't really know how deep you're getting until it's too late and you've been boiled. I wanted to highlight that part because even the vow did a really great job of showing the good parts about it.

[00:21:16] And I'm like, yeah, I'd probably join that too. It looks like something that is really productive, something that helps you grow, helps you expand. Especially, like you said, if you're goal-oriented, it's like a very clear way of moving up in your growth, whether it's spiritual or tangible goals or community or whatever it is. It seems like it's a really good thing.

[00:21:39] And I think it's great to emphasize how it actually did help some people in some cases. You mentioned in the book that some people took a few classes and then they got what they needed and they left and no harm, no foul according to them, right? But that doesn't mean that that's everybody's experience. That's my initial relationship with the organization. I was like, great, cool. And I think that's one of the biggest things you guys probably run into it too.

[00:22:05] Whenever you platform somebody from a specific group, you'll have people commenting or maybe emailing you guys saying, yeah, well, that wasn't my experience. And they're just painting a negative light over the entire organization. Oh, yeah. And we see that all the time. And I just always say, well, your experience, your positive experience doesn't negate their bad experience and their bad does not negate your good because both can be true at the same time. And most of these groups have levels to them, whether you see it or not.

[00:22:34] And if they don't have clear levels as far as actually working up the ranks like NXIVM or Scientology, it's more of like a psychological leveling system. For my case, it was Mormonism where you're working your way to get to the temple or you're trying to do all the things and check off the boxes and you don't realize how deep you're getting in. But if you're one of those, quote, Jack Mormons who maybe drinks and goes to church on Sunday and doesn't really care much about the doctrine, it's probably not going to affect you that much.

[00:23:04] Right. Yeah. And for Sarah, you got pretty deep pretty quickly, right? You were, I mean, initially when I read your first book, which was also great, Scarred, you really illustrated the ways in which you were very much at the beginning not into it. You're like, this is weird. Sashes are weird. These people are weird. I want to leave. But then they use that cognitive dissonance to keep you in as a tool to help you go, well, if you're uncomfortable, it's because you need to grow.

[00:23:34] It's because you need to be here. Can you talk more about that? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I had so many red flags from the beginning, but they were really brilliant in how they set it up. Exactly what you just said, that any area of discomfort was something to look at. And the truth is, is I did have, there was, you know, the worst lies of truth mixed in. I did have issues around, like Nibir was talking about the structure and the sort of measurability of growth. I'd never pushed through anything.

[00:24:00] Like even in swim classes, you know, you'd like, I don't remember the levels, silver, red, like gold, like it was different, at least where I grew up. There was like, or martial arts, I did karate. I never pushed past, when as soon as it got hard or there was a test or I had to like go to the next level, I'd give up and try something new. So the straight path is definitely weird. But then I looked at it like, well, it's uncomfortable for me because I've never done it. And this is an opportunity for me to stretch myself and build my self-esteem. So everything could be twisted like that.

[00:24:29] But if I trusted my first instincts, I would have probably walked out on day one. And so I didn't. And a large part of that was that I wanted to get my money's worth. And I also wanted to, not necessarily please, but I had been invited also by Mark Vicente and no ill feelings. Like we're all friends now and we laugh about how we were in a cult together. But at the time, he was the reason that I joined. And again, leveraged trust, loved What the Bleep Do We Know, the film he made. I really trusted him.

[00:24:58] And so I was like, okay, well, he's doing this. So therefore, there must be something in this that I can't see yet. And I stuck it through not knowing that, you know, after three days, if you're open. And at a certain point, I did become open because I wanted to get, you know, get my money's worth. Not knowing that I could actually be indoctrinated into this belief system. And by day five, I was a convert. I was really changed. I had a lot of incredible ahas about myself, about the way I view the world, my communication, my relationships.

[00:25:27] And, you know, my parents are, my mom's a therapist. My dad's a counselor. I believe, still do believe, you know, strongly in personal growth and the ability to change. And I was like, why would I do any of that other stuff when I can have this type of growth? So condensed. I'm all about efficiency too. Like, yeah, I'm, I don't chill. Nibbe likes to point out and I don't, I know this about myself. I'm like, go, go, go, go. I'm like, this is fast track to enlightenment or fast track to happiness, joy, success. Like, this is it. This is the key.

[00:25:55] And I wanted everybody to know about it. So, yeah. Can I add something there? And I think what Sarah just illustrated really well is the multiple forces at play, right? She's got a lot of incentives, you know. And this is one of the things I think Keith set up brilliantly is if, if he set up all these kinds of rites of passages, these obstacles that people would overcome, he already has them overcoming their objections on day one. And so there's an inertia of that, right? So you have to justify, you have a, you have a high price, $2,000.

[00:26:25] So you have to start justifying these things. And that, that psychological kind of inertia is what ultimately will get someone, you know, praising it at the end of five days, you know, respect for Mark Vicente. Mine was, you know, my ex-girlfriend's father. Like there's a lot of things that are at play that you're not even particularly aware. You're just going to take a five-day training to see what's going on and, and maybe get some goals out of it. But then all of a sudden you're in a situation where many things are exposed to you.

[00:26:52] Many forces are at play and it's hard to discern what they all are and then make a decision. And they really force you to decision, sign up at the end of the, end of the five day. Because there's more. Get a discount because there's more. And they keep that inertia. And there's a lot of things that I think if you have some more time to vet out, think, and think rationally about, you'll make a more informed decisions based on your values and not what they want. Yeah. There's a lot of things that happen to muddy the waters and it all happens very, very quickly. It's also typical sales, right?

[00:27:19] Like you have to, you have to get them all there in the seat because once you let them walk away, then that's that. Once you become a person that makes the mission more important, your personal goals kind of take a backseat. Right. So that, that's the exchange that everyone needs to watch. You came there for, to sign up for your own personal involvement and what you wanted to achieve. Something happens where you're now the missionary or something like that. Yes. That's the switch. And that's the switch I think Keith was trying to get everyone to have.

[00:27:47] And once they made that commitment, you're a cult member. Yeah. Well, that's such a great point, Nippy, because really they get you by the idea of it's all about saving the world, but they don't tell you it's going to come at complete self-sacrifice. Correct. Mm-hmm. And people tap dance with that line. You know, Sarah and I were two people that had one foot outside the organization and still had our personal goals that we pursued. A little bit. A lot of people, well, it was hard.

[00:28:14] It was hard to grow a mission and, and, and have a career, but we managed to do it to a certain extent. Most people just gave up on that, that were in the inner circle. And then once you did that, it was kind of a testament to your commitment. And that's where I think Keith felt more comfortable letting you around him. Even cult podcasts need sponsors. Check out these must-haves.

[00:28:55] Sponsor Breaks Den. Back for more culty stories. And so you start to realize the more you self-sacrifice, the more you're being rewarded by the leader, which to most people, especially with narcissistic leaders, any little breadcrumb they can get, they're just going to gobble it up. Cause they're like, oh, this is what I have to do is suffer more. And then I'll be praised more. And then I'm clearly doing the best and I'm, you know, the superiority complex too, even within the cult itself.

[00:29:23] And some people were more susceptible to that than the others. I didn't particularly like him. I didn't dislike him. I just, I respected him because I thought he came up with all those things, but it was more player coach, respect the hierarchy kind of relationship. I had with him until I saw that he wasn't any of those things. And it was quite the opposite. Let's talk about that where you realize, and especially now that you can look back and see

[00:29:51] who he really was, the ways that the cult leader manipulate people to believe these grander stories or these technologies or whatever it is they're coming up with and how they're able to pull the wool over people's eyes. I can answer this question on multiple levels. Go ahead. I was just going to read the section or just mention the section about flying monkeys and the Greek chorus. Yeah. Then under the section of why do people stay and understanding that people like Keith

[00:30:21] get propped up because of the people around him singing his praises and leaving no room for doubt. And anytime that I felt like, I don't know, like there'd be a, somebody might say to me something like watching me eat my quinoa and avocado and be like, that's really a high calorie lunch. Keith says, and I'm like, in my head, I'm like, Keith isn't a nutritionist. Like he is, but, but that's sort of how he got away with a lot of things is that really the belief was that he was a genius and he knew everything about everything.

[00:30:51] Like his application of knowledge could be applied to anything. And so he was there for the expert. You can't question what were you going to say, babe? I think what you're, how did he get away with it? Well, I mean, I think it's important to understand the kind of psychology he has and what he understands about the human dynamic that you don't, and he understands your blind spots and he's proactively looking for your blind spots and your areas of susceptibility. And there's nothing he doesn't feel entitled to.

[00:31:18] There's nothing that he doesn't have any sort of feeling that he shouldn't have access to. And he's willing to do anything to do it. Um, and that's the scary psychology around these people, because most people, um, don't think they're susceptible to these kinds of people. And I would say people that say that are advertising their blind spot and actually making themselves vulnerable to someone. Cause if I, if I don't, if you say to me, I would never fall for that.

[00:31:48] I would target you. Cause you're, cause you're fortifying your blind spot by saying that. So I would just keep that caveat, but then I think he listens and he listens for areas of people's susceptibility and what they're looking for and then provides it for him. And then, and then code, code switches with all those people. And what you don't understand is there's a huge amount of intelligence with people to do that. One person texted me after that and said, it's a shame he uses intelligence for that. I thought that was such an appropriate line because it's not an intelligence thing.

[00:32:18] It's, it's him targeting your area of susceptibility. And then maybe even putting people that he knows you might be susceptible to in the position of manipulating your area of susceptibility. Yeah. He had other people do it for him. Right? So he might say, oh, they're looking for this. Who can I forget them to provide it? And then everything's attributed to him. What they have going for them, if I'm going to use that term, and he's that term for them

[00:32:43] loosely is they understand what it's like to be you because they had that psychology at one point. There comes a point where they have an area of malevolence and hurting people feels good to them. And they're highly motivated by hurting people. So if you look at their wake, there's always a wake of hurt and destruction in their path. And it's, and it's, it's the same kind of self-esteem you get through achievement. They get through hurting people.

[00:33:07] And it's very hard for people like us to understand that psychology because we can't project into that. It's hard for us to understand that the someone walks around, looks and sounds normal and like us, even smart and helpful at times, but is really turning the knife while he's looking at you and he's doing it. And you're none the wiser. And it's what allows them to get away with it because people don't have that education. Understand that people like this are very effective. They can get in control of systems and, and companies.

[00:33:36] They can pull levers of power because they're able to manipulate extremely well. Sometimes you don't even know their names and they're operating in our culture and our society. And there's a lot of people that think that I'm not susceptible to it. I would know it. I would see it. You don't, you're dealing with someone who has a dark entity, a dark force, and they're very good at manipulating and looking and sounding like you and I. And I think that's the thing that people really have to understand. I still have a hard time understanding it, believing it. And it happened to me.

[00:34:06] So it's very like, it's, it's a scary thing. And I think people should be scared and I'm not trying to be alarmist in it, but they target people and they're good at it. They've been doing it a long time. I had pictures of my heroes on the wall. They had pictures of people. I think when they look at history, this is kind of the thing I've kind of come up with. They look at history books and they go, who did the behavior that was like me? And they emulate them. They emulate the people who manipulate others. And so. That's how I did it. That's how it works, I think. And that's hard for most people to understand. Yeah.

[00:34:36] Yeah. You put in the book about how he would hold people's hands and look deeply into their eyes and just really, truly make someone feel seen. And I think that alone is such a powerful technique to get someone to put their guard down. Because in society in general, we don't sit around and hold hands and look into each other's eyes and have these deep emotional connections, unless maybe it's a romantic partnership or something.

[00:35:01] But I think just being able to break through what is socially normal and get to someone's feelings and get to someone's really just vulnerabilities and just have them open up is the first step of just cracking open everything. Interesting. Yes. And I would even say that there were people that would see that. Maybe they'd come to a Vanguard week, which is one of his 10-day long birthday celebrations in upstate New York, also a big red flag.

[00:35:28] And on his birthday, that would be a time to have a one-on-one with him. And there'd be a long line. And he would shake his hand. And he would meet people sometimes he'd never met before. And I would say that there were people that did that. And they were like, this is fucking weird. I always thought it was weird. He never looked into mine. Yeah. I mean, he did it with me. He did it with me. And I felt hugely, really uncomfortable and really uncomfortable. And I was like, I kept my distance from him. And I think that was one of the ways he kind of tested people. Were they going to open up to him? Yeah.

[00:35:58] I mean, I didn't. And I didn't end up in his harem. Other women did. And they ended up in his harem. And I think that was one. There were many what he called guardian at the gates, even the sashes. When people, we like, we tried to get rid of the sashes at one point. And he was like, the sashes are the guardian at the gates. Calling me vanguard versus Keith Rennery is a guardian at the gate. If people don't want to call me vanguard, they have, and then they aren't willing to work through their authority issues. We don't want them here. Authority issues. He made them the problem. He can't pay.

[00:36:27] Yeah, exactly. Can't pay tribute for what he's built as the philosophical leader. If they're not willing to do that, they don't belong here. So, the people that weren't willing to be fully obedient eventually got, you know, sloughed out. Is that the word, slough? Yeah, sloughed out. Yes, exactly. Sloughed. Sloughed. I want to talk about how he truly was living a double life without, we talked about not going into the details today, but really how it did get so dark.

[00:36:54] While he was simultaneously playing this role of, I'm this celibate monk-like, all-knowing type of being. Without calling himself a prophet, he basically held himself up that way. As far as what I can see in all the cults that I've covered, it's like, yeah, he was pretty much, I mean, a line, really, where people were going and shaking his hand. That's very much something a prophet would do, see FLDS. Yes. Yeah.

[00:37:18] But anyways, I want to talk about how he was able to get away with claiming something so big like celibacy while behind closed doors manipulating so many women into clearly not being that. I think that, and again, I didn't get to this level, but from what we've heard from women who did, is that it didn't start with like, oh, take a five-day and then knock on the door. Hey, it's Keith Van Aery, come join my harem.

[00:37:46] It was a series of things, like I said earlier. Obedience tests. Are you willing to be open with him and shake his hand and share intimate things?

[00:37:59] Are you willing to get up in the middle of the night and go play volleyball from 12 to 3 a.m. and put your sleep aside in order to have, you know, potentially one-on-one time with him or see him play sports and then have, like, be able to ask him a question and have some big life issue resolved by him? Like, are you willing to make yourself uncomfortable to be with him? And then eventually what he would do is usually invite the person through somebody else.

[00:38:26] So he had his Glenn Maxwell, Pam K. Fritz, say things like to me, or, oh, you're in town. Are you going to reach out to Keith and ask him for a walk? So like the women around him would get other women to reach out to him. He wasn't really doing that. There was a normalized process of getting to know Keith, and the process of getting to know him was actually abusive and indoctrinating him. Yeah. So we were all being groomed to, like, reach out to him and ask for his time.

[00:38:53] And then he would usually invite somebody to start a business. I was invited to, like, five different things outside of NXIVM. Like, outside of ESP, there was different programs and ideas that he would, like, have an idea. And he'd, like, people would come to Albany and he'd have a meeting and be like, this is what I think needs to happen. And people would either run with it or they wouldn't. And I just didn't do the ideas because I thought they were really dumb. Like, in my head. I would never have exposed this. I would never have said that.

[00:39:20] And I also didn't have the money to come, like, back and forth to Vancouver to Albany all the time. And other people did. And there was these companies that sort of, like, never went anywhere. But that invitation was a way for him to be close to people and have these meetings and get to know people in a different way. And then, once he was sort of, like, coaching them on a business level, he would offer, this is what we've been told. It was always a beat and switch. It was like, you know, most people have relationship issues.

[00:39:48] And I think a lot of the women that got close with him and let him in on that level had, and I say this in the book, daddy issues. And I'm not saying it's their fault. But, like, you know, poor attachment with their fathers or dads that weren't there or narcissistic fathers or whatever. They had that wound. In other words, the daddy wound, you know. And then here comes this guy who's, like, paying attention to them. And knew how to look for it. Knew how to look for it.

[00:40:13] And making them feel special and valued and love-bombed them and seen and heard and all those things. And then basically said, I can help you with the things you struggle with and offered a sexual relationship. So that's how he got these women. And for them, once you're at that point, they think that they're getting special teachings from the teacher. Like, what an honor. And at that point, they understand this other thing that we're taught, which is, like, so crazy to say, but, like, the idea of the ethical lie.

[00:40:42] So I think they knew that they had to lie to uphold him as a celibate. But it was the right thing to do because if people outside that knew that he was not a celibate, then they wouldn't understand. The world wasn't ready for the way he worked. Yeah. It was that kind of thing. Yeah. If I could impart what I think Keith Raniere really is like tacitly in his head, he's an Andrew Tate type character in terms of how- His beliefs.

[00:41:11] His beliefs and how he operates and treats women. Yeah. I think he thinks like that. And I think he couldn't be overt with that. So he had to be subversive with it and create a power dynamic that was always off teacher, coach, whatever. And I think certain people and certain women are susceptible to that. He knew how to filter and look for them. And then he knew how to keep them quiet and said, listen, you know, make them feel special or whatever.

[00:41:37] I hope some of the women that had this done to them can come out and tell their stories. Allison Mack has- One of them. Told her story. And she told her story pretty explicitly about how it worked and how he did it. And that was recent, by the way. Yeah. That recent podcast, right? Yeah. That come out, you know. And, you know, Allison Mack's taken a lot of shit. For it. But I think her story, if she's given room to tell her story-

[00:42:06] It could be valuable. It's way more valuable than banging on her. She was a victim too. I understand she did a lot of things. And if there's anyone that could be mad at her and has a reason to be mad at her, it could be me because she was complicit in the branding ceremonies and all that. But I also see that she was highly manipulated by Keith. And I think if she's allowed the opportunity to put language to that, it's a valuable story for everyone rather than ostracizing her and shaming her for what she did.

[00:42:35] I think society has given her the years in prison. She's paid her debt. She's come out. She's not a criminal. But better hearing from her than us too in some ways. Like we can share. That's right. That's what I'm saying. I think if you give her the opportunity to really put language to what happened, it's going to be helpful. And I think a lot of people are going to go, holy shit, I'm in a relationship like that. You know, I don't- Maybe not as extreme. Well, I mean- But like people can relate.

[00:43:00] I just think, you know, her story with language is way better than her being ostracized. Yeah. And this is coming from someone who was pissed at her, you know, eight years ago, was ready to cast her out just like everyone else. But if there's no Keith Raniere, Allison Mack's not a criminal. She's acting right now and she got manipulated and she had some blind spots and Keith went in hard on him. And that's the story, not her going off and perpetuating his crimes.

[00:43:29] The story is how she got manipulated. Because I've met her family. I mean, I've met her. I'm very impressed with like her mom and how she's handled it. And, you know, I always thought her mom was smart. And, you know, the few times I met her and I think she deserves an opportunity to do that. Have you guys been able to speak with her? No, we can't. No, we won't. Not for a bit. Probably anytime soon. There's a civil case. Oh. We're not even actually supposed to talk about it at all. Yeah. So we're going to be careful. Anyway, that's just kind of- Well, you know, I think- But the problem I have with a lot of that is a lot of the people,

[00:43:59] these progressive people, you know, women and all that stuff are banging on her. But really, she's a victim. And the story of evolving a lot of this is understanding how that happened. Yeah. Well, it's something important to talk about. Because you don't think people in positions of power are doing. Yeah. I mean, it's still going on. She can be a victim and a perpetrator. Yeah. And as we were as well. But not in the same way. We didn't do anything illegal. Just varying degrees. I mean, our morality got tested and we pivoted.

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