The Cult Next Door: Mike King on the Zion Society

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_04]: or mental health advice.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_04]: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_04]: the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business,

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_04]: individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_04]: thing at first go bad.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_05]: directly by the people who lived through them.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_05]: prime recruitment material.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: You might even already be in a cult.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Oops, you better keep listening to find out.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello everybody and welcome back to this week's very special episode of A Little Bit

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Culty.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_05]: This one's from the vaults, Sarah.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: The Patreon vaults.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Patreon unplugged.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: We shared it there first and it was well loved.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And we thought we'd share it here on the main feed as well.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that this is the first cult that we've ever covered that was started and run

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: by a landscaper.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_05]: That's only because Keith didn't put landscaper on his resume, Sarah.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah, landscaper champ of 1982.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been landscaping since I was six years old.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Landscaping's my middle name.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Today we're talking about the Zion Society and we're going to talk to one of the

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_05]: people responsible for taking it down.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_05]: This was a polygamous sect that had about 100 members at its peak, I believe.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Their leader was Arvin Shrieve.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_05]: He was a landscaper, as we've mentioned, in Ogden, Utah where my dad was born.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And he spent many years working for that city before starting the cult.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_05]: This is also interesting.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_05]: They occupied about 10 houses on a cul-de-sac in Ogden.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very possible that maybe Arvin mowed your dad's family's lawn.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Or you know, my dad walked...

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_05]: No, he left there two or three.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: They could have passed each other on the streets.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, I digress.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm guessing these houses were well kept.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, one of his ex-followers described as something from the Steffford wives.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So they managed to just stay hidden in plain sight?

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_05]: You got it, Sarah.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And Arvin Shrieve was not attention grabbing.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_05]: He was a mousy guy with big glasses and receding hairline and a gut who was

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_05]: well into his 50s when he had led the cult.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_05]: But he seemed to know something about recruitment.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's funny how these guys work.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_05]: The women who joined the Zion Society were often divorced and had been ex-communicated

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_05]: from the mainstream Mormon church.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So basically people who had a hard time being accepted in small town Utah in the 80s.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and Shrieve gathered 28 wives and dozens of followers,

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_05]: male and female, who accepted him as a prophet, who knew,

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and received daily communication from God.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_05]: There's that lifeline to God again.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello, God.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_05]: It's me, Ellen.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_05]: The Mormons have that one down.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So all of this is definitely reminding me of Warren Jeffs,

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: the fugitive fundamentalist Mormon leader who was put on trial back in 2007.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_05]: They were both polygamous cult leaders,

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_05]: but Shrieve's wives did not look like the ones from Jeskrup,

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_05]: the fundamentalist church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Those women who looked like they were on the Oregon Trail.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, really?

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they were decked in high heels and lipstick

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and their weight and physical appearance were strictly monitored

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_05]: and controlled by their, quote, sister councils.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Sister councils.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm guessing this is the part where the line between victim and collaborator gets a little blurry.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So all the men in the Zion Society had several wives and they formed a, quote,

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_05]: sister council.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Many of those women were arrested and convicted in the same bust for child sexual abuse

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_05]: that put Shrieve in jail for the rest of his life.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, our special guest can tell us more.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Mike King is the creator and host of Profiling Evil,

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_04]: a YouTube channel and podcast that covers breaking true crime stories.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Before that, he worked in law enforcement for four decades.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: In 1991, he was a lieutenant in the Ogden Police Department

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and became one of the lead investigators that took down the Zion Society.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Mike has written a fascinating book about that case called Deceived,

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_04]: an investigative memoir of the Zion Society cult.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_05]: As Mike will tell us, it all started with one woman who couldn't stand the guilt anymore

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_05]: and came to the local district attorney with an incredible story.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And this all led to a case that was disturbing and bizarre,

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: even by the standard of all the other polygamy cults.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_04]: We had the pleasure of speaking with Mike King in person,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: in front of a live audience at CrimeCon.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So you will hear some audience reactions and applause and whatnot.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I do think it's important to note that there is a major trigger warning for this episode,

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_04]: lots of disturbing conversation around the abuse of children

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and the sexual abuse of children.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Please listen with care or skip if you need to.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Take care of yourselves, dear listeners,

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and please enjoy our conversation with Mike King.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_04]: How's everyone doing?

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: This is our second live podcast ever.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So bear with us.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_05]: We have notes.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: We do have notes and glasses to show that we are very old now

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and need reading glasses.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, there's two of these in the room.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I turned 50 last week.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean look at this.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Just a boy.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Who here was at our talk yesterday just so I know?

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, a lot of you.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And who here saw Mike yesterday?

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so there's going to be maybe some

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_04]: crossover.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Repeat a little crossover.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you weren't here yesterday,

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll just say that when Nipi turned 50,

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_04]: we were in Manhattan.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_04]: We were also in Manhattan seven years before

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_04]: we'd gone to celebrate his birthday.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the next day is when he dropped me off at the FBI

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_04]: to tell them that I'd been branded and I was in a cult

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_04]: and they were like, okay.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_06]: They're like cool story.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_04]: But you asked for it?

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't really get it.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, so it's been seven years.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And here we are at CrimeCon with a personal hero,

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: a new hero of mine, Aris.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep, Mike King.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And the reason we're here today is,

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_04]: well, we were invited because of our cult stuff,

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_04]: shitshow and they said, well, you can speak,

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_04]: which we did.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And then they said, would you like to do a live podcast?

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And we said, well, we always interview a guest.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Has there anyone that who's coming who's also in the cult space?

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Because you know, crime, cults,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a bit of a Venn diagram there sometimes.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And we were actually not familiar yet with Mike's work nor-

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_04]: She is unbelievable.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Unbelievable, nor the cult that he exposed.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So since we've been connected, we've obviously deep dived.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_04]: We read his book, which we highly recommend.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Quick read.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Quick read.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Captivating.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_04]: It reads like a thriller.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Has this been made into a movie yet?

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_08]: No, you'll take care of that, I guess.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, we will take care of that.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_04]: We will.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_04]: It really should be made into a movie.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It just reads like a captivating thriller with all the hope

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and redemption that you want in these types of cases,

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_04]: which is so rare.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you didn't hear, for those people in the audience,

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: weren't at your talk yesterday, can you give us a little,

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_04]: just a little background to who you are and why you're here

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and how you ended up on the stage?

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Your life story, essentially.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh well, number one, I was like this giddy fan when

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I knew that I was going to meet Sarah and Nippy,

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_08]: and it was just a thrill to be able to come and spend time.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And we've created this incredible bond in such a short time.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_08]: We've had phone conversations and other things.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_08]: The cult that I was involved in, listen,

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_08]: I never intended on looking into cults or sexual abuse

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_08]: or anything else.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_08]: And I mentioned yesterday, I was having the time of my life

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_08]: just by unstolen cars with a team of eight cops,

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_08]: and we were just tearing it up and working our way

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_08]: up a criminal enterprise.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_08]: When I had an opportunity as I walked into the county attorney's office,

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_08]: kind of like I did on many days and just kind of glumping along and waving.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_08]: And I said, hey, how's everybody doing?

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_08]: And they said, oh, would you mind talking to this woman?

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_08]: She's been waiting for some time to talk to someone.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_08]: It was a beautiful woman, 20 years old sitting at a chair.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_08]: And I walked over and she confidently stood up

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_08]: and she shook my hand.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_08]: And it was one of those good strong grips.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_08]: And she said, hey, I've been involved in a cult

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_08]: that's sexually abusing children.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you have a minute to talk to me?

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, of course it turned into one of the most incredible

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_08]: game changing parts of my law enforcement career

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_08]: because I turned into not wanting to, turned into a cult expert.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_08]: That led me into looking at polygamous groups

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_08]: and other types of cults all across the country.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And it changed my life because I was more intrigued

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_08]: not by the fact that criminals commit crime.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's what predators do.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_08]: But this particular kind of criminal, when they form a cult,

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_08]: have this way of getting everyone to believe

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_08]: they are the top drawer in the shelf

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_08]: and the most important person on earth

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and they will sacrifice everything,

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_08]: including their most prized possession, their children,

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_08]: in order to do what they think that God is that they believe in.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_08]: And so that's my experience leading into all of this.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's a good question.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Our format is traditionally, how'd you get in?

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_05]: How'd you get out?

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_05]: What red flags did you miss in the healing?

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And we thought maybe Aaron's story would be a good segue

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_05]: into explaining to our audience

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_05]: how Aaron was susceptible and drawing the parallels

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_05]: maybe between our stories and maybe other people

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_05]: and how they may have been susceptible in a certain way.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Can you walk us through

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_05]: how the Zion cult preyed on Aaron as an example

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and thereby all others, I think a little bit as well.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_05]: But how is her example to you

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_05]: and what would you learn in the process of how these guys work?

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_08]: So there were two parallel universes

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_08]: coming together to collide at one moment.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_08]: There was this predatory self-proclaimed prophet

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_08]: who had decided he needed more wives

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_08]: and he needed to grow this enterprise that he was building.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Sounds nice.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: See what I was going to say.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_04]: The Keith Reneary of Ogden, Utah.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And the parallels in the book between how you described it

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_05]: were really, you really demonstrated

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_05]: you understood how they work.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_08]: And isn't it crazy?

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_08]: They receive revelation that fits what their need is

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_08]: for that particular moment.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_08]: And we've seen it in so many cult cases

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_08]: even including those where we just recently got a death penalty.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_08]: But as he was putting together his cult

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_08]: he determined and started to figure out the kind of people

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_08]: that were most susceptible to what he needed.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_08]: They don't want crazy dumb people in cults, do they?

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_08]: They want intelligent people that are going to contribute

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_08]: and they want people that are going

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_08]: to be able to help financially.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Sometimes that's hey you've gone through a divorce

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_08]: and you got half the settlement now donate it all to me

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_08]: your leader and I'm going to make your life better.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to be a house to live in and food to eat

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and all I'm going to require is that you become one of my sex slaves

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_08]: and we continue this thing together.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_08]: But I'm also going to require that you recruit.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_08]: It's almost like these pyramid schemes that you watch.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And it doesn't, he doesn't lay that out at the beginning

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_04]: like hi I'm Arvin will you become my sex slave slash spiritual wife.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_04]: He says first come oh you're recently divorced

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_04]: you're out of a bad marriage

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_04]: we have a community will help you

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_04]: will take care of you and your child.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's a debate and switch that we see time and time again.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_04]: So the initial hook isn't sex slave it's community.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely and one of my mentors through paper

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_08]: I never knew her personally

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_08]: although I've come to know many of the experts

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_08]: was Dr. Margaret Singer who said

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_08]: cults know that if you knew from the get go

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_08]: what you were in for and why you'd never join.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Right and I say this a lot

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I've said would you like Keith Reneri's initials on your crotch

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_04]: on day one of my five day what I've said yes absolutely not.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Say the same example.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And they have really I think warm people

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_05]: as facilitating the con as well

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_05]: and I often find sometimes that the people facilitating the con

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_05]: aren't necessarily in on it to the degree that

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_05]: someone like Arvin or Keith Reneri

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_05]: has leveraged the other person's trust.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: So I see that you're a warm person

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Sarah is a warm person

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I know that they can be advocates for my message

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_05]: while I can leverage Sarah's trust or your trust

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_05]: to get close to that person unbeknownst to Sarah.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So Sarah would be enrolling someone into the bad thing

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_05]: without Sarah necessarily being aware of it.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Like with Erin right she didn't know really what she was getting into

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_04]: right she joined this community so tell the audience a little bit about

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_04]: what that was like at the beginning and then what it turned into.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_08]: So if we were to then look at this parallel universe of Erin

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_08]: she was a mom who was married and she was in a destructive

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_08]: mean marital situation.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_08]: She claims that her husband was physically abusive emotionally abusive.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_08]: She had children and she was now pregnant with another child

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_08]: and she was facing that critical decision of do I continue to put up with this malarkey

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_08]: or do I try to do something different.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And she really did a brave thing because she went out

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_08]: and she decided to go to work for her aunt Judy in a salon

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_08]: doing tanning and fixing hair and tried to make it on her own.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_08]: But at an hourly rate she wasn't surviving very well.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_08]: She was living at the very poverty line level.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_08]: She was trying to take advantage of what public services might be there.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_08]: But the group then found her in this very vulnerable position

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_08]: and started to befriend her because she was actually

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_08]: the perfect profile of a target that they wanted.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_08]: And as they developed that relationship they started inviting her to the cult.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_08]: They started love bombing her telling her we understand you.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_08]: We've been through this.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_08]: We have a special insight into your life because we've lived it.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_08]: And you can come and join with us where you're going to be happy.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_08]: You're going to have a place that's safe.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_08]: And she finally bit and she bit hook line and see her.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_08]: And as she moved in they said hey we're going to help you transition a little bit.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And then they started the ingesture with some drugs and she

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_08]: and we don't have proof of this.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_08]: We only have what she believed she went through which was this incredible funk

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_08]: for about 30 days.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_08]: But during that time they took her daughter and stripped her away

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_08]: and said we'll just take care of this little six year old child.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_08]: And then that child began the indoctrination process.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_08]: And they slowly started to separate her from her support system

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_08]: from her memories of who she was.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_08]: And then they also said and by the way we're the only ones that understand you.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Of course.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Did you experience the same things?

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely well just to recap for our audience who who listens to a little bit culty

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_04]: we have the classic love bombing the classic isolation classic creating this dependency.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't think we were drugged as far as we know.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I was.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_04]: But there were people we believe that were the ones that had sexual relations

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_04]: with Keith Reneary purported having seeing certain things and hallucinating.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that his part of giving them that experience there was drugs

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_04]: but we don't know for sure and that has not been proven.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I did tell Payne Lindsay that we have some unresolved things in in the nexium case

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_04]: that we need to discuss so stay tuned for that.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we're going to find out more.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah people died.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_04]: We think they were poisoned as a separate stay tuned.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But back to your story for those who don't know Payne a picture a little bit of the compound

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_04]: that it's it was a compound within normal society in the suburbs

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_04]: normal houses that they took over 10 houses I believe in a sort of very isolated suburb

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_04]: with other houses that weren't part of the code had a bunker.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_08]: You had the bunker big red flag.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Dang bunker.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah you know it actually was 14 homes but we got search warrants for 10 of the 14 homes

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_08]: but that was what was so intriguing when you think about groups like the FLDS or Waco

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_08]: or others where they go out into the outskirts of a community where they could stay a little

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_08]: more under the covers they can be a little less transparent.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_08]: That's usually where you see a cult start to grow and build and do their thing.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_08]: This group was entirely different and it was actually a really remarkable strategy

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_08]: because they build it right under our noses.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_08]: They started taking over a small little cul-de-sac community

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_08]: and it was a brand new housing development and they strategically purchased homes so

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_08]: they had centuries as you came into the neighborhood.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_08]: As they built the homes they were wiring them together so that they had surveillance systems

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_08]: knowing what each of them were doing from location to location and they tried to appear seemingly

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_08]: normal. In fact this was a group that was practicing polygamy but they recognized we

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_08]: can't go around in prairie dresses and goofy haircuts and I hope I haven't offended anybody

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_08]: by saying that. But what they did do is they said our signature and we talk about the difference

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_08]: between modus operandi in criminal cases and signatures in these serial cases you see the

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_08]: same thing in in cults you see signatures like tattoos or in this particular case the

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_08]: signature became the well-manicured lawns that were so pristine that people throughout the community

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_08]: would drive through but they were using it as a brochure to further the boss's landscaping business.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_08]: It was part of the cell. It was incredible I remember with my wife driving through those

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_08]: neighborhoods but then the ghost story started to trickle out. So before Aaron came into your

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_04]: office and said hey I was in a cult that's abusing children you hadn't heard of this group.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_08]: We had heard about it because we had husbands usually estranged fathers who were would come

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_08]: into the county attorney's office and they would say hey I've got this problem my wife and I just

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_08]: went through a divorce she won't let me see the kids she's now telling me that I can buy the boys

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_08]: as part of a custody settlement but I can't get my daughters and we had fathers paying 10 grand a

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_08]: piece on our average to buy their male children back through custody but it was all handled through

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_08]: the civil litigation process in in family court and they'd say what are you gonna do about this

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_08]: and and law enforcement would look at them and say we can't do anything we don't deal with

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_08]: custody issues right because we had no idea what was happening deeper in this organization because

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_08]: these things are so um tight knit and closed I call them closed societies yes this podcast

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_04]: certainly would not be happening without our amazing supportive generous patrons are you with us

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_04]: come find us over on patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_04]: ad-free and exclusive content and the occasional zoom with fan favorites from our past episodes

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_04]: q&a's and all sorts of goodies it's fun over there people kyora I'm anke richter who wrote the

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: bestseller cult trip and I'm bringing you an exciting event get ready for decal 2024 the first

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: cult awareness conference in New Zealand happening in christ church this october are you

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: worried about a friend or family member who's in a group that may be causing them harm or do you

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: have your own story then join us for a weekend with experts from around the world with those

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: who've left culty groups can share their experiences and meet professionals who can help them

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: head to our website decal.net for all the info you know what's not refreshing when your team

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: concedes a last minute equalizer or feeling pressured into joining in the mexican wave

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: or when you spot your best friend at the match even though he said he was busy

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_03]: kevin the cold pint of heineken brewed with just three natural ingredients

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that's refreshing get the facts be drink aware visit drinkaware.ie

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_04]: you've heard from our sponsors now let's get back to a little bit culty shall we

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_04]: well I was just I was a bit shocked like in your book I was shocked that law enforcement

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess because this was the 80s and 90s it's not the time we're in now where I feel like people

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_04]: are a little more armed with how to deal with such things but I was shocked that the police

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_04]: or the authorities at that time didn't didn't get involved with those civil cases where the

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_04]: cult was involved what do you think they were missing like what they just weren't trained in

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_08]: in those spread flags no no I don't think it was an issue of training I think it was a couple of

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_08]: things in particular one is that if any member of the cult were to leave to go out to do something

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_08]: and all the women were required to go out and work in the community which is a little different

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_08]: than you see in some courts but they were required and they were working as housekeepers

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_08]: in hotels and other kinds of things and they could only go out and they would only work

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_08]: shifts in tandem so they always had to have several members of the cult

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_08]: whenever they went out together everyone donated all their property vehicles everything else to the

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_08]: leadership of the cult who would determine who could drive a car but they would have to

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_08]: say I'm going with this person and it was always a trusted advisor that accompanied

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_08]: anyone into the community there were no telephones in any of the homes only in this

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_08]: self-proclaimed profits home so anyone who wanted to make a phone call had to go through the

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_08]: leadership to get so there's this a massive amount of control so law enforcement had no idea now

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_08]: there were multiple accounts where law enforcement responded to the scene to talk to and try to

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_08]: do welfare checks on children because of husbands who said I haven't talked to my daughter in

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_08]: four years you know and and law enforcement would go in that child would show up they were

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_08]: programmed and that's probably the shortcoming is law enforcement didn't understand the program can

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_08]: responses that come in a cult that you see where someone is actually taught this is how you're

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_08]: going to respond when law enforcement asks you a question what how are the what were they

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_08]: trained to say so number one I'm very happy here right everyone was very happy and and everyone in

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_08]: the group had this very similar steppford wife response when you looked at it and I don't know

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_08]: any better description the children were the perfect child on a 1940s television program that quietly

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_08]: stood in the corner well dressed well behaved and smiled and did nothing else so it was it was

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_08]: very controlled and that's a part where maybe we missed it but you're taking maybe a 21 year old

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_08]: testosterone field patrol officer and saying go try to figure out if there's something goofy

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_05]: going on in that family right and I imagine that speaks to the leader Arben's intelligence in

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_05]: terms of how he's able to anticipate what law enforcement may or may not do how much do you

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_05]: think he was informed and how much do you think he anticipated what you guys were going to come in

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_05]: and do because it seems like he was pretty well prepared even for a doomsday you know there's

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_08]: the part in the book where we talk about the fact that we when we took the 32 children into

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_08]: protective custody we started interviewing them with yanatomically correct dolls which

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_08]: was just standard procedure back then to talk about just tell me point where you were touched or

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_08]: things like that the children just repelled those and actually it was as as repulsive to them and

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_08]: frightening as anything you could imagine it would be like I walked in with lucifer himself and

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_08]: said sarah why don't you just have a conversation with this guy for me would be a tarantula but

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_08]: yes yeah it would okay and that's a perfect example the kids were trained with anatomically correct

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_08]: correct dolls that were called the devil's dolls by the cult leaders that the cult leaders dressed

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_08]: up like police officers they would put false uniforms on they would come in with suits and ties

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_08]: and they would interview the children and they'd say if you were asked a question

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_08]: how would you respond and the child would say I'd say this and they'd say no this is how

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_08]: you're to respond what we missed because it was so infrequent was that the programming was consistent

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_08]: but the first patrol officer who was respond responded to do a welfare check

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_08]: wasn't the same officer that responded three months later and that person came in fresh

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_08]: and saw this experience and walked away and said man very polite kids right the term that

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_04]: we use in a little bit called he is toxic positivity so yeah so stepford wives toxic

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_08]: positivity same same and isn't it sickening I listened to chad daybill I listened to warren

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_08]: jeff's I listened to arvin shrieve I even listened to Keith renear and I hear this

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_08]: same kind of passive approach to I'm gonna just lull you into my web there is definitely a tone

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_04]: used a faux humble very calming friendly what other similarities did you see between

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_08]: that is the beginning of the coercion yeah that we're just so with the love bombing if you

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_08]: reacted inappropriately you said wait a minute why are we doing that there's this immediate

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_08]: emotional excommunication within the group of you know what maybe you need to go into time out

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_08]: do a little pray in and think about things and it could last for days or weeks or even months

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_08]: where the group would treat them so coldly and distantly yet keep them hanging on just enough

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_08]: to keep them embedded in the group it's cancel culture inside it's cancel culture inside the

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_08]: more there you go yeah exactly and so we saw that kind of repetitive behavior and then we saw people

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_08]: that were told if they weren't performing in a way that the prophet demanded it might be sexually

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_08]: it might be emotionally physically that they would be sent to this little secret cubby hole

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_08]: under the stairs and they would lock these little children in the cubby hole and they'd say

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_08]: go in and pray and eventually your guardian angel will come to you and give you a little

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_08]: instruction kind of tune you up and then come out and tell us what you learned from this

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_08]: spiritual person that appeared to you and how that's going to change your behavior

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_08]: and we'll reintroduce things like food and love and regular kinds of experiences

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_08]: and so people quickly came into line and many women in that cult told me if all I had to do

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_08]: was have sex with Arvin every once in a while and comply in order to have a safe place for my kids

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_08]: or a place for me to safely sleep at night I was willing to do it for some reason they believe

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_04]: that meant safety wow and we haven't even really talked about it yeah and I also just forgive us

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_04]: when this goes live on our channel we will have a trigger warning and I should say it again here

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_04]: what Arvin did to these women and children is horrific and just you know listen carefully and

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_04]: take care of yourselves because reading it was upsetting and this is live and I have to be aware

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_04]: that these are real people that you've spent many decades with and watch them go from victim to

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_04]: survivor and they've they have been through horrendous things they have been and I for anyone

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_08]: who hasn't read the book it's written very tastefully we acknowledge that sexual assault happened but

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_08]: we don't dive into it we don't explore it we don't tantalize it it's it's just accepting the fact

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_08]: that it happened the problem is it happened thousands of times it did going back for a second

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and we've had some tangents but I want to make sure that we're clear in terms of Aaron's

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: journey and the other victims journeys what do you think were some of the red flags that people

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_04]: missed because they were love bombed and isolated and they didn't have you know this amazing cult

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_04]: education we have now what are some of the things that happened to them along the journey that

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_08]: should have or could have been red flags well I think the first thing is cults are really good

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_08]: at finding people with a like-minded mentality somebody who wants to in your case improve

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_08]: themselves become a better human being and do more than anyone else be really excel they're really

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_08]: good at figuring out who that is a cult is really good at figuring out for instance

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Chad Debo really good at figuring out who have doomsday mentalities and this idea

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_08]: that I deserve more light and knowledge from God than the guy sitting next to me

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_08]: and so it's this elitism that comes in and people say how can you say elitism in the way

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_08]: that cults are treated but there is an elitism oh yes in all of these cults of of how lucky they

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_08]: are and you think about it throughout history one of the best ways to bring a team together

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_08]: is to make them feel like they're in something alone us versus them isn't that a great strategy

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_08]: it really is so they use that they then use coercive control in inside of the cult as they came in

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_08]: that they craftily would suggest through emotion you're on track or you're off track and the people

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_08]: knew it and the people that were delivering those messages certainly understood what they

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_08]: were delivering they knew and even those who become leaders and we've seen this even recently

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_08]: with twin flames for instance where they become a predator themselves they would have never been

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_08]: a predator for any reason in their life but as they accept the doctrine or the the philosophy

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_08]: they then start to defend the doctrine and the philosophy then they start to convince others

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_08]: but when the awakening starts to happen they hit this critical moment where they either have to

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_08]: admit i was duped right over i'm gonna hang in there and keep doing this right we know that one

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_04]: how did erin finally wake up what was for final straw that caused her to walk into your office and

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_08]: tell all you know can you imagine this they had a game called rape in the dark and the children

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_08]: would be brought into a big circle and they you'll have to read the book to get this cut the

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_08]: catch on that yes but they would go through a series of questions and hand squeezes and all kinds

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_08]: of goofy things like you did in scout camp or girls camp or or with your best friends after what

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_08]: playing with the Ouija board on a Friday night but they would go through this series of questions

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_08]: which would eventually identify one of the children or one of the adult women and by the

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_08]: way this is one of the intriguing parts about the Zion society is while there were a group

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_08]: of men primarily the self-proclaimed prophet that were sexually abusing everyone the prophet came

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_08]: up with his own form of spiritual sexuality that he called the sexual way of life and the sexual

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_08]: way of life doctrine was that i arvin can have sex with all of you including two year old children

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_08]: or you can have sex with each other women only the women could have sex with each other

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_08]: so his own form of lesbianism but it was sanctioned and so women who would never have been uh in a

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_08]: position that that would have been attractive to them would do it because they believe god wanted

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_08]: them to participate in this so as they helped played rape in the dark eventually one of those

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_08]: people child or adult would luckily be called the rapist oh my god and then they would be able

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_08]: to assault anyone else within that circle any way that they wanted and it was one of their favorite

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_04]: games what what was arvin's purpose of having women be with each other so i believe initially arvin

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_08]: came to realize that with 28 wives the old stallion couldn't do what he thought he could do

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_08]: and i think that there was a period of time that we under uncovered where actually

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_08]: they created a lingerie business and they were selling lingerie to the local strippers in town

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_08]: and then they would in exchange have the strippers come in and teach the children how to dance

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_08]: erotically and uh they started having some conflicts in fact i have uh audio still

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_08]: of a couple of strippers one in particular named marne marney who i will never

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_08]: forget because she was just so blunt comical and matter of fact who said yeah that old man wanted

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_08]: me to fool around with him but she's not kind of preferred the girls that were coming to buy the

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_08]: lingerie so they started having affairs outside of the cult with the stripper who was also then

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_08]: later helping them line up to prostitute the little girls to people and men in the community

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_08]: so um as they did that it became very evident to us that arvin came up with revelation which is

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_08]: so common in these cults in my opinion when there's a problem i can't solve all i need to do is say

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_08]: god has revealed to me that this is what's supposed to happen big red flag i talked to god

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_04]: he said i need to marry you all even though you're under 12 exactly it's so every single one of these

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_08]: groups they have a direct line to god yeah the outsource their authority to to god isn't that

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_08]: awesome and you know when you look at it in the beginning stages not awesome awesome awesome but

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_08]: wild oh yeah okay i think that's again my life and criminal behavior isn't there

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_08]: he's not so great okay great but but the idea is really quite clear when you start to examine

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_08]: the criminal behavior or the motivation for what they do and so you think about it this is a guy

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_08]: who was raised in a traditional mainstream latter-day saint family but he had this predatory

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_08]: pedophilic perversion and so what he does is he creates a a religion that says hey it's okay

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_08]: for me to have multiple companions which also included going to solid city and buying prostitutes

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_08]: on thursday nights and i said listen i didn't want to have sex with those prostitutes but god

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_08]: commanded me to do it to gain more experience right so as this happens prophecy is revealed

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_08]: that allows them to justify what they know morally is wrong and then if god tells you

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_08]: something is to be done a certain way it helps you bridge what is criminally wrong too because

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_08]: i've heard this from so many stinking self-proclaimed prophets i would rather offend man than offend

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: god how convenient was this guy friends with with warren jeff's were they were they comparing

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_08]: notes you know actually it's really interesting because he is a spin-off ancestral line many people

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_08]: want to shout out and say oh the latter-day saints are polygamists you know and i like to remind folks

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_08]: that in my research the latter-day saint faith in 1890 said polygamy's out now they may not have

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_08]: wanted to do that but they recognized it was illegal and that it was really causing lots of

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_08]: problems they were trying to become a state in utah they cut the thread but a group of men they

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_08]: called them the seven the council of seven went down to southern utah and formed the first polygamous

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_08]: movement and said mainstream church of lds is wrong god really does want us to continue doing

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_08]: this and that began the polygamist movement that you see in much of the united states

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_08]: as people have filtered out so you can actually change or trace

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_08]: arvind's line through people who were into the council of seven so that's where personally i believe

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_08]: that mentality and process came through also again if you're a predator and a pedophile and

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_08]: you're you want to have relationships inside of your marriage with a lot of different women

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_08]: you got to come up with some kind of spiritual reason that justifies it so that's why i think

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_05]: they do this you have that and you have the tool of humiliation right absolutely so humiliation

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_05]: i think and i think this is this goes on in a lot of them humiliation is a tool to keep you loyal

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_05]: because if i come clean with my behavior not only do i have to humiliate myself in the process

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_05]: i also have to admit that i was complicit with some behaviors that i otherwise would not

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_05]: have normalized in my normal life had the person who has outsourced to god helped me normalize it so

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_05]: you have to reconcile your own delusion your own humiliation in order to come clean and stop

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_05]: these things and that takes a lot out of for a person to go okay i have to sit on my own character

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_05]: i have to recognize i was humiliated i have to go through those hurdles in order to hold

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_05]: this guy accountable and there's not a lot of people who are in trauma that i think are

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_05]: willing to do that especially when they were when they were vulnerable in the first place

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_05]: they let their vulnerability get leveraged and i think that's a hard thing so it's going to take

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_05]: someone to usher them through that process i imagine you had to do that a lot of times and

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_05]: then know what you're looking at as well and at the same time you know it's interesting

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_08]: yet because you think about families uh that try to remain a support system at home they've been

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_08]: cut off anyway from relationships with members who join cults one of the first things is

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_08]: what arvin actually called search and separate find that person and separate them away from

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_08]: their support system so that you can begin to change them and model them but the beauty of

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_08]: search and separate also creates this really weird mechanism that i don't think loving families

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_08]: intend but we sit and watch our wacky children join a cult and our response is to say what on

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_08]: earth's wrong with you you've joined a cult well that's the one thing that's going to drive that

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_08]: child further toward the cult and away from the family and so i often say you cannot take

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_08]: a position you have to remain in a position where your child actually believes or your loved one

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_08]: actually believes that if i have a question i can still reach out to that support system the

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_08]: lifeline but it's not gonna it's not gonna happen by them counseling the child is it right we actually

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_04]: did an episode of rachel bernstein specifically on how to help family members who have family

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_04]: members or friends in groups and what to say and not to say so i'll send that to you for your

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_08]: i would love to hear that and you know i'd love to hear from the two of you because then

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_08]: i think something remarkable happens that made me want to become your friend so bad

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_08]: and that was and and i hope that i'm supported in this by all of these folks is that it didn't take

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_08]: it takes incredible courage to say i made a goofy decision and change it so thank you

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_05]: whenever anyone says that i said there's a lot of people that came before us that had to

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_05]: go through the door and not necessarily get the result there was nine women who came out in 2009

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_05]: that rang the bell we didn't necessarily hear it we didn't listen to them so but it was

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_05]: they did pave the way because when we heard the nefarious behavior we had that to access and we

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_05]: had a pass of people who stood up to him and weren't able to get the same results and those

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_05]: were things that made it easier for us to pivot i mean my wife did get branded so it wasn't

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_05]: really a hard decision for me but there was also a lot of people that i could now listen to

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and they were there for us when we're out and they helped us with resources so

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_05]: we're the emergent property of a lot of people who stood up to keith and

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_05]: and and were able to take it and put it into wisdom for whatever reasons but there was a

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_05]: lot of people before us that i think it's important to shout out to all them yes and

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_04]: also important to know that there had been a lot of bad press and a lot of things were holding

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_04]: on are we were holding on by very thin threads all the negative press out there we

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: were told was a smear campaign and either don't read it or if you know understand that

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_04]: it's of course it's not true because keith is the most noble ethical humanitarian in the world

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: trying to teach ethics of course they're either going to call him a pedophile that's what the

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_04]: media does so when when i had my bad experience all of a sudden all those things immediately

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_04]: were like oh they're true oh i am gonna call it wasn't i wasn't a hard de-programming it was

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_04]: like i snapped back to reality to my former self very very very quickly but you two still

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_08]: had to make that acknowledgement yes and you had to also face the fact that there might have been

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_08]: people that you have convinced oh yeah to join this that might even still be there i don't know

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_04]: there's there there are a handful not people directly that we brought in or enrolled recruited

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_04]: slash building humanity it was called um that there people that i we directly recruited are

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_04]: are gone but my descendants are still there there's maybe somewhere between five and thirty we don't

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_04]: really know um but yeah they they will have a much bigger shit sandwich to eat when they get out

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_04]: because they've denied the truth and denied the results of the trial and denied so much

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_04]: for more background on what brought us here check out my page turning memoir it's called

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_04]: scarred the true story of how i escape nexium the cult that bound my life it's available on amazon

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_04]: audible and at most bookstores and if you want to see that story in streaming form you can watch

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: both seasons of the vow on hbo kjörer i'm anke richter who wrote the bestseller cult trip

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and i'm bringing you an exciting event get ready for decal 2024 the first cult awareness

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: conference in new zealand happening in christ church this october are you worried about a

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: friend or family member who's in a group that may be causing them harm or do you have your own story

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: then join us for a weekend with experts from around the world with those who've left culty groups

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: can share their experiences and meet professionals who can help them head to our website decal.net

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03]: for all the info you know what's not refreshing when your team concedes a last minute equalizer

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: or feeling pressured into joining in the mexican wave

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_03]: or when you spot your best friend at the match even though he said he was busy

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: kevin the cold pint of heineken brewed with just three natural ingredients

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that's refreshing get the facts be drink aware visit drinkaware.ie

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_05]: break times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_04]: but i want to go back to your story for a moment because i realized we had 18 minutes

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_04]: can you give us and really do need to read the book but can you give us in a couple minutes

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of like the cliff notes of the sting operation and the raid and bringing your team in at

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_04]: 4am and i was actually amazed that you brought them in at 4am and they did the raid like

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_04]: i would imagine that would take weeks of weeks of prep but you're like 4am we're

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_04]: going in at 6 they're like is it a parade and not a parade it was crazy yeah so how did

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_04]: it was a success i'm going to give you a summarize it was a success how did you do it

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_08]: so you know that was the craziest thing because this guy was so well known in the community and

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_08]: especially with people with money because he was like the coveted landscaper to have come in and do

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_08]: your thing arvin actually do the landscaping he would actually be there physically doing it

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_08]: himself too and any new new family that moved into the community you know you might have

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_08]: like the local neighbor walk over and help bang some doors and drag furniture in but these people

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_08]: would come over and say hey this weekend we're going to come and redo your yard for nothing

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_08]: and people are like especially young couples that you'll read about in the book were like

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_08]: holy cow something for free i'm in and they put in these beautiful yards not for free

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_08]: there's always a price yeah but so we had to be extremely cautious because of that

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_08]: but we also had this mandate that if children were being sexually abused

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_08]: we needed to move really swiftly this couldn't be the normal you know financial crimes investigation

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_08]: the last sear right and because there was such a concern that this man had ties to the to the

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_08]: judges to other people to police officers because he was doing the municipal gardens

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_08]: around the courts and the police department in the sheriff's office we also had to worry about who

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_08]: was on the take especially since many of our informants that we were developing were saying

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_08]: the cops are involved well let me tell you something every cold i've ever dealt with has the cops

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_08]: involved but i've never found one yet i'm sure there are some but that's a great technique

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_08]: to control the members as the cops are in on this thing and they're going to know if you

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_08]: tell me or you tell your story oh wow so then we started saying how are we going to do this and i

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_08]: went and i picked a couple of people that i really trusted as investigators and went to the police

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_08]: chief and said i need these guys to help me with this thing and then we kind of went into a secret

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_08]: little room and we started putting together our investigation and we worked about 20 hours a day

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_08]: seven days a week for three weeks as we prepared and tried to follow leads and get just enough

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_08]: that we could serve search warrants and what we had was cori the insider who drew maps of where

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_08]: the automatic weapons were hidden and where the food storage was and which windows had bars and which

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_08]: one had a lock that wasn't working when she left the cult and so we started to build these intricate

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_08]: plans and taking into account folks there there were 10 homes that we hit all at once 14 that we

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_08]: had to manage so we needed 70 police officers just to make sure that we could control this group

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_08]: and get in quickly and maintain control and not have some kind of an injury happened to law

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_08]: enforcement or to the people that we were trying to stop and most importantly to the 32

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_08]: children that we wanted to rescue and take into custody and so we put our plan together and I went

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_08]: to my old buddies on the SWAT team and they started working graveyard shifts going in and drawing

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_08]: plans and walking their dog through the neighborhood and recording and we started to build up our

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_08]: plan and finally we had it in place but we knew still we couldn't invite or tell anyone what

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_08]: we were doing so I secretly got all of the search warrants we we got a judge who signed off on

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_04]: everything but that stinking bunker why wouldn't you get a why wouldn't it give you a warrant for

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_08]: the bunker because I didn't have any sexual assaults inside of it and I missed a really important

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_08]: cue that someone might be tipped and hide in it which is something if you're a law enforcement

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_08]: officer think of all the possibilities and make sure you include them in your search warrant

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_04]: but nonetheless you did a great job you did a great job we uh you get a grow then the night

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_08]: before the raid we send out notifications canceled vacation and everything else for 70 police officers

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_08]: and and we had a batch of really honorary cops at 4 a.m. the next morning and I I got up

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_08]: couldn't sleep well I was up early in the morning going over the the bus day plans

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_08]: and I was in the briefing room at about 2 30 or 3 in the morning by about 3 30 I started here in

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_08]: some locker slamming and I could hear a little bit of grumbling going on and we we started they

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_08]: started walking in and I heard one of them dropping a couple of expletives and saying it's

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_08]: parade duty that we're doing today and uh and nobody could figure out what kind of parade

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_08]: was going on but they knew that it had to be something stupid and uh and then we got all the

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_08]: cops in the briefing room and when the police chief walked in they all kind of sat a little

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_08]: taller and when the when the district attorney walked in they thought and I remember one of

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_08]: the old salty cops that I knew very well leaning over to another cop saying this isn't a parade

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_08]: duty it sure wasn't and uh so we we used two hours to brief them get the teams out we had about

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_08]: five to seven officers per house based on what we were concerned about if there were automatic

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_08]: weapons or other things and these this compound had been broken into a series of homes one was

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_08]: a medical center one was a center where the the lingerie business was run another was the

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_08]: profits home another was the child dormitory we had the security offices so they were very well

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_08]: mapped out including one basement that was the library for the homeschool but it was filled with

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_08]: bomb making books and sniper instruction and other kinds of things and so when the officers

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_08]: hit thankfully and this was just a few months before Waco so we didn't know that Waco even

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_08]: existed but we were able to get in and within about five minutes secure all the homes take everyone

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_08]: into custody and start removing the children now we also did something else that I think was quite

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_08]: brilliant and kind of cutting edge we also had child family services bands and workers

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_08]: that we brought in and so social workers started taking custody of the children one of which

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_08]: I never forgot as I walked across the street during the raid a 14 year old girl who was sitting in the

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_08]: van as they got ready to pull away that was staring at me and I've never seen a look of contempt

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_08]: like I saw in that beautiful girl's face because we had stripped them from the only thing they knew

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_08]: whether they liked being sexually assaulted or not they loved their moms and dads yeah

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_04]: well how you handled the children was something that really struck me it did

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_04]: seem cutting edge in terms of taking care of the children and how you decided to prosecute and

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_04]: tell me a little bit about that decision so that the children did not have to testify in court

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_08]: which I thought was quite brilliant so we had been really troubled the county attorney and I

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_08]: was his chief deputy on the civil side and the criminal side and we were very concerned

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_08]: about the fact that children were being taken into the local police departments and sheriff's

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_08]: offices and interviewed in the same room that an armed robber was being interviewed or because

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_08]: that's just kind of the way we did things back then and the same cop who had just finished

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_08]: interviewing somebody who had committed an aggravated assault was then just sitting down

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and saying to a child so tell me what happened and so we had these these real disconnects and

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_08]: so we learned about something called the children's advocacy centers or the children's justice centers

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_08]: that had just popped up there was one I think it was in if I remember Alabama or something but I'm

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_08]: not sure but we built during that time the second children's advocacy center and the doors had

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_08]: opened a day before this raid and that building was built to give a place where children kind

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_08]: of in a home setting oftentimes chocolate chip cookies cookin and things like that where the

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_08]: children could be interviewed in more of a home setting rather than this stark cold police department

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_08]: well they had a baptism by fire that day because they had a batch of kids who on the

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_08]: dr. Phil show I said I had logged 4,000 counts of rape against these children and they made it

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_08]: very clear that if I doubled it I'd be getting closer to the number of times that they were

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_08]: sexually assaulted during that time so we were thrilled with the fact that we were able to get

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_08]: them in but most importantly we were able to photograph them video them when behind closed

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_08]: windows so they didn't know what was going on and we were fortunate to get through a pretty

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_08]: incredible strategy a confession out of the profit yeah and then I convinced him that probably the

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_08]: best thing would be just to tell his followers since he was their leader to plead guilty and all

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_08]: 12 of them pled guilty so we were able to rescue the children we were able to keep them from testifying

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_08]: other than in a preliminary hearing but it uncovered another terrible problem within the system back

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_08]: then and that was the children were required to testify in a preliminary hearing about what happened

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_08]: these children had been raped some of them five or six hundred times and so and by multiple adults

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_08]: men and women so they would have to testify over and again and after two years we actually stopped

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_08]: prosecuting because we couldn't in all conscience allow these children to continue

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_08]: to testify in a preliminary hearing is much meaner than a regular trial because a trial you'll have a

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_08]: jury and lawyers are afraid to make a jury angry but when they only face a judge they really rip

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_08]: these little children apart as they try to tear their testimony apart we've since changed laws

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_08]: that prevent that children can be forensically examined by experts and that becomes their

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_08]: testimony in court so they don't have to go in and face that situation so good for you Mike wow

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_05]: if this is you see what needs to be a movie we have about seven minutes i want to ask there's

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_05]: mike in 1991 with your wisdom and there's mike now with your wisdom how have you been informed

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_05]: and how has law enforcement been informed where if something like this were to pop up today how

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_05]: would it be handled how would it be expedited and what do they have now and what might they

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_08]: need and what's missing well i think uh well number one i mean i was a young testosterone filled

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_08]: person today i'm a seeping whiny person every time i see these kids i start crying and i hug them and

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_08]: and uh so so personally i'm much different um i i wish that we could somehow reverse those

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_08]: physiological things when we actually have something to contribute then later in life when

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_08]: we're just kind of telling stories but um i think what we learned are things like changing

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_08]: legislation so children don't have to testify that creating forensic examinations where experts

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_08]: interview a child and also provide assessment to say how believable their testimony is so

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_08]: that we know because that leads defendants to face a much heavier hill or a much taller

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_08]: hill decline when they decide whether they're going to plead guilty or continue to fight

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_08]: something they see the evidence that's there i think law enforcement's got better but at the same

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_08]: time we didn't have the internet at the speed that it is today which has i think given the sides of

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_04]: evil as much of a hand has given good that's true is there any programs within law enforcement

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_04]: now that teaches coercive control and teaches what to look for what signs or where somebody might

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_08]: be under undue influence no you know i had a medical examiner who's here at the conference come up to

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_08]: me today and say what's happening with legislation i think it's a slow move and it's really hard

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_08]: to say because again it's something i mentioned yesterday we we um really want to legislate

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_08]: deviant behavior but we can't we can only put people in jail or prison or stop them

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_08]: with criminal behavior and so you think about all the deviant thought that's out there

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_08]: that leads to this it's usually a lot of damage done before the discovery of the criminal events

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_08]: i don't know how we're going to get to a point where we can say if you say something mean to

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_08]: someone or you force them to mow the lawn on friday afternoon that that becomes coercive in

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_08]: nature and i think that's going to continue to be a real battle so what it requires is more

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_08]: of us in the community to acknowledge and you know i have had so many families that say i didn't

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_08]: want to upset my son and lose contact with my grandchildren but i worried that something was

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_08]: wrong in the family or i didn't like the way my brother was teaching people or tammy debil's

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_08]: sisters saying i didn't want them moving in next to me because of what they were doing

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_08]: you know we have to find a better way of kind of classifying and then packaging it in a way

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_05]: that law enforcement says i gotta follow up on this right i i said to sarah like if the branding

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_05]: thing didn't happen right if we didn't have a physical manifestation of the emotional abuse

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_05]: happened in our situation we would have a different outcome i think because you can always deny it

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_05]: you can always disguise it so they're the apparatuses that we have right now in our culture really

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_05]: locked down on physical crimes and and they're and they're totally unacceptable to us as a culture

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_05]: but when it comes to those emotional crimes and those emotional abuses even the victim will

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_05]: deny it's going on so i don't want to admit that they were due again i agree i think it's

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_05]: gonna be a battle that you have to go on but i think the conversations have to keep

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_05]: happening places like this need to keep exposing them we need to keep shining lights and you can't

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_05]: be scared of it at the same time you don't want to you know alienate someone who's under that

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_05]: spell because they don't want to believe they're under that spell so it's a it's a very nuanced

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_05]: hard thing to do because anytime you sort you sort of force you get pushed back and they dig

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_05]: their heels in even more you know that's one of the things i've always said to sarah is like

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_05]: i don't know if if there's solutions to that but i do think these conversations are a great

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_08]: step in that direction you know for me the solution always has been transparency yeah

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_08]: cults do not like transparent criminals don't like transparency and criminals don't like transparency

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_08]: and uh if we could just force transparency in many of these things not only in our discussions

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_08]: with people we love that are joining cults because they are not going to allow us to be

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_08]: transparent with them either or them they won't allow themselves to be transparent about what

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: they're learning okay we have two minutes and 40 seconds left how are the survivors i i loved

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: your description of getting them all together on on zoom and seeing each other after 30 40 years

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: because it seemed like many of them just wanted to move on with their lives but now they're

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_08]: coming out of the shadows and connecting how are they crazy so these kids have parents that

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_08]: have failed them and i have a few adopted daughters now that uh i have just grown to deeply love for

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_08]: 30 years i stayed completely away from the kids the last thing they needed was me to remind them

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_08]: about four years ago i received an email that said hey i don't know if you'll remember me but

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_08]: i was in the cult and i'm having a lot of memories could you help me and i thought about that for a

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_08]: couple of days i sent her back a note and i said i'm retired i don't know that i could help you

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_08]: i wish you the very best find some good counseling and uh and i and she accepted that very sadly and

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_08]: and within two days three days i received a second email from an entirely independent

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_08]: other cult victim who said hey i'm having some memories i need some help and i responded the same

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_08]: way to her and then the next day the utah victims rights coalition called and said hey wondering if

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_08]: you'd do a 30 year recap on the cult and where the kids are and i said absolutely not and i

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_08]: went down in the basement where i had my old science society files which we used to keep

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_08]: back in the old days when we kept all our police reports and all the videos of the child

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_08]: transcripts and interviews and i looked at that thing and i said i'm getting rid of this well

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_08]: anyway and i've only got 55 seconds i'm sorry i've brambled too much is we met with the kids

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_08]: and we brought them together on a zoom call we uh it was like watching a whole batch of sailors

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_08]: some of them swore really loudly others didn't and it was they hadn't seen each other in 30

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_08]: years and they started to connect and then since then we learned that they had suffered because

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_08]: they didn't get education they suffered because they didn't have a support system they suffered

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_08]: because they didn't have counseling so we went to the governor of the state of utah and we

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_08]: miraculously got them to agree to pay for counseling for these kids 30 years later amazing

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_08]: this is why he's my hero so and i'm gonna just add one more and then we went to the

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_08]: weaver state university president and we said here's a little story what do you think

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_08]: and he met with the girls and he said whether you want a g ed or a phd will help you and uh and so

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_08]: and for those of you who attended my session yesterday uh you saw a little bit about raggedy

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_08]: and just go to profiling evil and look up raggedy and and you'll watch just a little clip

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_08]: that changed a little girl who's now 40 years old life and then uh three weeks ago we were

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_08]: invited to los angeles as uh andrea walked and got her master's degree so great so i guess you

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: can you can feel now why mike's our new hero and so proud to call you our friend where can people

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: find you and tell us about what you're doing now profiling evil just give a little um i purchased

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_08]: the chainsaw and a fly rod with great intent of never talking about this again but it's kind of

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_08]: changed our lives um profiling evil app profiling evil one word will get you to youtube or the facebook

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_08]: web page all that stuff but um we we went to our friends who produced the podcast series cold if

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_08]: any of you have watched that or listened to that 80 million downloads folks and uh we sat down with

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_08]: uh the vice president of podcasting who happens to be in the audience today uh and said what do you

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_08]: think and the corporation came back with an offer that just didn't seem right so we talked a little

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_08]: more and they agreed to meet us halfway and and uh all of the proceeds from our portion of this

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_08]: podcast which we will release in an email to everyone at crime con i think uh the crime con

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_08]: staff is announcing it and releasing it um in a in a day or two will be a new podcast called

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_08]: cult files it'll be several years long we're hoping but season one will be gardens of evil

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_08]: about this story with the the proceeds going to build this new children's advocacy center

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_08]: that's two months underway right now so this is one of the many silver linings of being in a cult

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_04]: thank you don't join one but don't it's not it's not you can probably know what we're saying not what

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_04]: i'm saying thank you all so much for being with us today and for being such a captive wonderful

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: audience we'll be outside to do a little shake hands and say hi before we hit the road back to

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Atlanta so thank you again make sure to like follow subscribe all that stuff and anything else

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_04]: oh thank you guys this has been an incredible incredible experience thank you crime con for having us

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_04]: thank you you like what you hear please do give us a rating a review and subscribe on itunes or

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: wherever you listen every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_04]: smash that subscribe button you know what to do well everybody that was our episode

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_04]: from crime con we hope that you enjoyed it and we also hope we get to do more such things live shows

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and whatnot in the future i think live is our future um just sitting next to mike king and and

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_05]: have an experience of him and you able to feel what this trial and this experience met to him

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_05]: actually seeing his eyes well up yeah talking about the victims live makes so much more personal

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_05]: and informs things in so many different ways that you can't over riverside that's true so

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_04]: it was great to hug him too he's such a big teddy bear and we also wanted to thank crime con for

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_04]: having us out that was a wonderful experience great to meet so many of you in person and sign

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_04]: some books oh speaking of what should we tell them no shouldn't tell top secret we haven't even

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_04]: announced the title yet but our next book spring 2025 is now available for pre-order at sarah

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_04]: adminson.com slash book and also on our little bit culty website so if you want to be some of

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_04]: the first to get an autographed i wouldn't say hand delivered hand mailed hand mailed

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_04]: copy of our book we will be talking about it more soon but this is the book that we wish

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: we had had when we got out of the cult seven years ago a compilation of the greatest hits

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_04]: from this podcast will be yours in spring of 25 so check that out and check out mike's book

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and his podcast and we'll see you next week bye

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_05]: thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_05]: discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for general

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_05]: informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_05]: medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_05]: seeking safely in this culty world check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and don't miss sarah's ted talk called how cult literate are you great stuff a little bit

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by sarah edmondson and anthony nippy aims in

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: collaboration with producer will rutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: show chaplain slash bodyguard jess temple tardy and our theme song cultivated is by john bryant