Corey Jentry on Selling Sanity: Inside the Troubled Teen Industry Cult (Part 2)

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[00:00:29] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:58] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult. And that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:01:26] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A, and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a littlebitculty. Welcome to Season 8 of A Little Bit Culty. Seeking down to the depths of the ocean. Welcome back, everybody, to part two with Corey Gentry. Please do listen to part one if you missed it, as this will make less sense.

[00:01:56] We were just talking about how Corey has not yet seen The Vow on HBO, which is shocking to me. I mean, I don't know. That's six, seven years old now, isn't it? Did you watch Tiger King during COVID? Oh, my God. Did I? Yeah. So, Tiger King came out during COVID, as it did for, you know, we all watched it. And then The Vow came out, which was about our cult, and our lives kind of blew up after that. Yeah, I didn't think anyone was going to watch it. I was like, oh, shit, people watched this.

[00:02:24] People watched it, except for you. Everybody but Corey watched The Vow. Uh-oh. Here's a shame. This is the shame element of a little bit of COVID. This is the shame. I didn't mean to bail on you guys. No, no, you didn't know us then. It's okay. But as a guest, we're going to send you a copy of our new book, A Little Bit Culty, which is maybe you should watch The Vow first. I don't know. Oh, I will. I don't know. It's a big commitment, though. It's long. It's long. This is short. Season one is- This is a handbook.

[00:02:49] This is a handbook. This has got checklists. Our mutual friend, Mike Applegate, is featured in it. But they're like little snippets from all of our guests. We had 300 guests, and I think about 70 of them ended up in the book. Different cults, different stories. The rest bailed. Yeah, but you'll read it and be like, oh, that's what happened to me, because it's the template that is the same across all of the groups. It puts the abuse into soundbites so people can go, oh, my God, yeah, that makes sense.

[00:03:15] Because part of the journey of all this and part of my response is when people DM, and I think the best thing that can help people, is if you understand what happened to you and you put language to it, that's very cathartic and I think covers most of it. And for me, all of it. Like, I don't feel like I need to do therapy to understand it anymore. And the language is a thing that kind of helps you understand yourself, gets rid of shame, blame, embarrassment, all that stuff. Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:03:45] There's a major catharsis to it, I think, doing what you all did and what I was able to do is writing a book and, like you were saying, putting a voice to it. Because it almost allows you to move on from that section too. And I don't know if you all found this, but it was definitely my experience in the cult world and then, in a lot of ways, in the 12-step recovery world afterwards, which is just an extension of that in a lot of ways,

[00:04:10] is they're constantly narrating and re-narrating and re-narrating a certain section of your life. You know what I mean? I think there's something fundamentally unhealthy about that. It's almost like a continued pathologization of everything that's ever gone on with you. And then it's almost like you know that it's effective when they start talking about themselves or their disease in the third part. They're like, oh, well, that's just my disease and it's always going to be with me. Whatever. And it's like, oh, okay, are we freely engaging in schizophrenia?

[00:04:40] What the hell is going on here? This is strange. It's not good. Well, so we've only done one episode about 12-step and it's definitely one of the most controversial because, of course, there's so many people who've been helped by it, but there's definitely some major problematic aspects to it. I think you'll enjoy that episode. We'll send it to you afterwards. Yeah, I can't wait. No, and I mean, I'm a big fan of the 12-step movement. It's helped a lot of people. And what I always tell people is AA is not a cult, but there are a lot of cults in AA. Yeah.

[00:05:09] Well put. That's true. That's the soundbite right there. Yeah. I'd love to hear what you think of that episode. Anyway, back to your story. So you've had some red flags. Your book really sort of goes into more detail about how you see something that's wrong, but the pull of belonging and the pull of this new group and the affection and adoration, all these normal human, especially teenage boy requirements, teenager requirements, kind of overrides those things. And it makes sense, at least to us, as to why you stay.

[00:05:40] What's the rest of your—like, summarize the rest of your journey there, and how do you eventually get out? Yeah. So I was there from the time—and all of it's not linear. I got the boot a few times for bailing or whatever, and that kind of just helped reinforce the identity, because they would—six months or eight months or whatever, and you'd relapse, or I'd get pissed off at the counselors about something and then would go relapse or do whatever. And they would do what they do. They'd pull the rug out from under your friends.

[00:06:09] They'd call your parents and tell you that you were completely screwed. So it really fed into this narrative of like, oh my God, my thinking is really bad every time I'm— It marginalizes any potential grievance you might actually have that's real, too. Yeah, and it marginalizes and pathologizes autonomy. So anytime you try and act like an autonomous individual or you stand up for yourself in any kind of way, which is a very healthy part of adulting in life generally, generally, it's like exerting agency over a situation and being like, hey, I don't think that's fair.

[00:06:39] I don't think this. That was completely pathologized, and then you were kicked out. And then all of a sudden, you were out of this group, so you had no friends, no money, no skills. They got you to drop out of school almost as soon as you— You either went to the school that they provided, which was this ridiculous nonsense thing that they just would charge people money on, or you completely dropped out of school, which in my case, they were like, yeah, just drop out of school and whatever. So you had no education, no skills, no marketable skills, no nothing.

[00:07:06] So it's pretty easy to fall on your face when you're just spit out of a situation like that. So then you just go and beg, like literally beg, like, please let me back in. I can't live without you guys. Please let me back in. So it just more and more kind of reinforces the dependency on the relationship. And then—but that went on from 15 to 20, until I was 20 years old. And then at about 20—to this day, nobody knows exactly what was going on, but we all have a series of theories.

[00:07:34] And if you kind of start going backwards and putting things together, really what was going on is they started being investigated at the time. Because in my book, I talk a lot about some of the situations about how people would get kicked out of the program, or they'd say, oh, this person bailed. Or there would be people that had legitimate, like, psychiatric problems. Like, there was one case in particular I can think of where this poor young man had some legitimate psychiatric problems. They were completely anti-medication. They were like, no, no medication. That's cheating.

[00:08:03] That's—you're not really sober, blah, blah, blah. It can all be fixed with your mind. So you don't need any medication. And this person just couldn't get through it, got kicked out of the group. And I write about this story in the book. And they overdosed. They died. They went out and died because they—either they were a drug addict, and that's what drug addicts do, or they were just completely distraught and out of shape over this. But they had a few people that had done that, that had committed suicide.

[00:08:29] And the group's take on that was basically like, well, they wouldn't have done that if we would have listened. They would have just listened to what we said. So no accountability on their part. No, like, maybe we did something wrong. These people are here for treatment. None of that. And I remember the conversations that they started having with me about that because one of them was a friend, someone that I cared about. And the way they talk about it was just disgraceful. It was like, yeah, fuck him. You know, fuck this guy. He did that. He left. He did this to you.

[00:08:59] And it wasn't like this person was sick or, you know, any of that stuff, which one would think in a facility for mentally ill youth, which is what they were talking about, that there would be some semblance of compassion, but there was none of that. And it's really in the group. They would use that as a, like, see if you don't listen to us. This is what's going to happen to you. You're going to fucking die. So it would just scare all of us. But that really pissed me off. And I think it pissed off some other folks in the group.

[00:09:24] Some of the family members started asking questions about it is what we think happened. But basically, the long and the short is our treatment program started getting investigated by the federal authorities. So the FBI started looking at it and being like, oh, we've heard of this Bob Meehan guy before. He had a program in Texas and the feds investigated him there and he left. But then he just jumped state and, you know, went to Arizona and California and now Texas. Do you mind if I jump in?

[00:09:51] I think what you just described is an important element of when dogmatic beliefs kind of take hold. And what you just described is people's morality takes a backseat to the group. Absolutely. When they're able to see a situation like that's awful, someone died, right?

[00:10:15] And have their conscience and their life force go towards saying, advocating for a bad thing that happened. It's a stark indication of when someone has totally taken their own agency, handed it off to this thing to justify whatever behaviors that are going on. You see it a lot with the polarities in our political systems right now. It doesn't matter what my party does. I'm on board with it.

[00:10:41] And their life force is behind something malevolent, normalizing abuse, normalizing, you know, racism, normalizing all these things right now. And I think that's a really important distinction to have to see how these groups work. I just wanted to point that out because I think it's an important, really important thing just to, that's why this story is so important to protect your mind from turning into something that you didn't sign up to becoming in the first place. Well, and oddly enough, it's the same tactic.

[00:11:11] My doctoral research and PhD work was on terrorism, for lack of better words. But it's the same ideology and techniques that they use for radicalizing political violence and what we would consider political combatants and stuff. So it is a- Rules for radicals. You know the book, Saul Lentz? Yeah, yeah. Great book. Yeah. Great book. I was actually just thinking about that. Or, you know, you can read, there's a great book that was written right after 9-11 called Journey of the Jihadists.

[00:11:35] And it was kind of a, just, I set up an anthropological study of terrorists and suicide bombers and stuff like that. And how those individuals become kind of encapsulated and wrapped up into it. But essentially what they do effectively, and, you know, you don't know this is being done at the time, but they wouldn't even joke about it in the group. They'd be like, oh, I'm brainwashed. Or, you know, it's like, well, my brain needed a good washing. And, you know, they come up with all these little- Totally. Little things about it. But it's a very effective form of what I call identity hijacking.

[00:12:04] You know, is that they essentially hijack your identity and then just start instilling like, no, this is who you are. This is what you are. And once you buy into that, it becomes very difficult to untangle that because it becomes a- Don't want to get too in the weeds here, but like, it becomes almost like a sense of ontological insecurity. You know, because if you leave that group or you leave that group of individuals, it's not just, you know, something might happen to me or I'm not associated with this body of people anymore.

[00:12:34] It literally feels like a part of you is threatened to die. It's like, because if I'm not with these people, then who am I? And if I'm not a part of this group, then who am I? Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today.

[00:13:00] This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research. Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups and how to avoid, escape, or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go-to resource, this is it. Available now on Amazon in print and as an e-book for Kindle. And yes, the audiobook is coming soon, narrated by us. Just search A Little Bit Culty and grab your copy. Do it. Thanks, everybody.

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[00:16:27] You are capable of doing things that you ultimately probably wouldn't be capable of if you didn't make that choice to give up your agency. In the book, you call him Patrick. I'm sure it happened more than once. But I also thought it was really interesting how he leaves, he bails, then he commits suicide, and you can't even talk about it. You can't even share your feelings about it. And that's off limits. It's the most toxic therapy I've ever heard of.

[00:16:56] Well, talking about it is a portal to you reconciling your own delusion. That's what I'm saying. That's the bridge I was going to make is that you need to have those feelings to have that morality and go, actually, that doesn't sit right with me. That's not okay. It's not his fault. What are we talking about here? No, absolutely. And I mean, that story in itself was a branch off of one story, but it happened way more than one time there.

[00:17:19] But the other funny thing that they did with it, and I don't know if I, I don't think I touched on this in the book, but they were very sophisticated at utilizing humor. So it was okay to talk about it, but you could only talk about it once and share your feelings once. And you couldn't be pissed, but you could be sad or you could cry or something like that. And then afterwards, it was like, you make fun of that person.

[00:17:41] And that's what really bothered me is because all of a sudden, all these other people in the group that maybe didn't know him as well as I did or didn't know her as well as I did, all of a sudden, they'd start making fun of him. They'd be like, oh, man, what are you going to do? Are you going to pull a Patrick? Are you going to do this or that? And then it was like this person just turned into the butt of a really disgusting joke. And, you know, they would do that with, there was another guy there who I later on had to go back and apologize to.

[00:18:07] He was a homosexual, very, like, clearly gay, like was born that way. It was just, it was how it was. And man, that was completely unforgivable in the group and the amount of abuse that poor guy took from people like me. And I mean, today, I can't believe it. I have, you know, I live in West Hollywood. I have more, you know, gay friends than I know what to do with now. But at the time, like somebody being gay at the group, it was like, you know, oh, my God, I can't, you know, you can't believe that.

[00:18:35] And the amount of shit that we gave that guy, because it was all a choice. It was like, what are you talking about, Steven? I knew women that would try and make jokes about that, about being raped and molested and stuff like that. It was just a lot of it was like really dark and inappropriate, really dark and inappropriate. So, yeah, it's, it's so wild when you get out of that environment, like I did. And we were investigated. And then all of a sudden, you know, it was just one day the counselors were like, hey, we want to talk to you guys about graduating.

[00:19:03] And we were kind of like, what the fuck are you guys talking about? We had never heard of that term before. And within about two months of them mentioning that we were out of the group, like a month and a half of them mentioning that we were all of a sudden out of the group and being graduated. And that experience in and of itself was just really traumatic because when you're in the group, the number one goal in the group is to become a counselor in the group. So that was my dream.

[00:19:31] That was everybody's dream is you want to be one of the chosen one. And it was literally like, oh, I don't know, hope and giving you a blessing or something like that. But Bob would come down from, you know, wherever he was and he would come visit and he would have discussions with these people and the group and be like, hey, man, I think I really think you've got what it takes to be like a counselor. Now, looking back on it now, I can see with, you know, complete 2020 vision, they were all young, very rich.

[00:19:59] They were the richest of the rich kids that were in the group. And that all of that is by design. They do it because of the network, the social proximity to money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But all of that was strategic. But I did not get chosen to be a counselor. So that was like blow number one to my ego and identity. It was like, oh, my God, what am I going to? It was like training your whole life to become a ballerina and then breaking your ankle at your recital or something like that. It's just it's like hopes and dreams completely crashed.

[00:20:27] And then they were like, and you're going to lead the group and we need you guys to start going to AA meetings. And before AA was like, do not go to AA. Don't go to anything because they would challenge the authority of the group, particularly Bob. And then all of a sudden we started going to these AA meetings. And for me, that was when was kind of my first like notion of like, OK, something's not right here. Because, I mean, I love Alcoholics Anonymous. It is a great program and it's helped a lot of people and whatever.

[00:20:55] But it is not a sane place, but to say the least in a diplomatic way. And, you know, it's bad when like even the people in AA are kind of freaked out by you. And I was so me and the people that we graduated with me, we just kind of got spit out to AA meetings. Even the people in AA were like, yo, you guys are fucking weird. Like, what the fuck? I mean, they would say like, you sound like you've been brainwashed. Like, what the hell is going on?

[00:21:24] And you'd sit in meetings and talk and whatever. And I mean, I must have sounded like some, you know, fundamentalist Pentecostal preacher or something like that in AA meetings because we all had the like, you know, the recovery Holy Spirit. But they were all like, yo, what the fuck are these guys talking about? But we didn't believe in God. We didn't, you know, all of this. So I found myself in AA meetings just being like, what the fuck? And, you know, a lot of these older everybody there. I was 20 years old. So everybody there was at least my age now.

[00:21:54] So they were like, you know, double my age. And to a 20-year-old, you know, someone my age looks ancient. So I was around all these like guys that were at least in their 40s, 50s, 60s. Some of them were in their 70s. I knew nothing about nothing. You know, I had no skills. I didn't know how to communicate with people other than people in the group. And we had a very specific way of communicating that was like really kind of manic and unhealthy. And everybody in AA was like, what the fuck is going on with these kids? They never shut the fuck up.

[00:22:24] But they were like, we were really involved in everything. And I managed to, my first sponsor was this gay guy. And I didn't know he was gay at first. When he told me he was gay, I almost jumped out of his car. He was driving his car. He said something about his partner. And I was like, oh, you mean your business partner? And he was like, no, Corey, my boyfriend. I'm a homosexual. And I remember all the blood drained from my body. I got pale white and I just grabbed his door handle.

[00:22:51] And he kind of looked at me like, is everything OK? And he kind of was the first guy to kind of break through with me. He was really smart, very funny. He was a medical doctor. And he was like flamboyantly gay. He was fabulous. He was hilariously funny, too. So he really kind of, you know, won me over. And he was kind of the first to break through, I guess, the first chink in the armor and was like, hey, you know, have you ever thought about seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist maybe or, you know, whatever.

[00:23:20] And he just kind of very subtly started dropping things into me. But my I kind of got spit out of the cult and into the fundamentalist sector of Alcoholics Anonymous. So basically the craziest of the crazy. And I would go to meetings that were very similar to that. They were uber regimented, hyper stripped. You know, it was like they read, make you read the big. They memorize the big book and you'd walk around in like a suit and tie and stuff like that. I mean, it was really kind of just very manic and structured.

[00:23:47] But I was convinced that I was an alcoholic because that was what they told me from day one in the treatment center. And they were like, and if you drink or do drugs, you're going to die. And for whatever reason, that was the thing that stuck with me. And because I came from the family that I came from, that wasn't a hard, you know, line to draw within all. So I just kind of went along with AA. And after a few years of being in AA here, I just was like, something is not right. Something is not right with me. I didn't feel like I fit in AA.

[00:24:17] AA didn't feel like it fit with me. Eventually, there was like a big ABC special that came on after the Oscars. And it was something like trouble in treatment or whatever. But Bob was on the cover of it. And it was like, this is a cult. And I thought, what the fuck is that? So and then my AA sponsor at the time, the gay doctor, he would always throw these like Oscar parties. It's a big thing in Georgia. Or it used to be a big thing in Georgia where people would get dressed up. It's like a dinner party thing. But we'd all watch the Oscars. And, you know, it was kind of a halt to do.

[00:24:47] And he was known for throwing these parties all the time. And so I got this was about two years after I got out of the group. And I got invited to one of these Oscar parties. And that was where I saw the treatment thing. So we all stayed and watched the 60 Minutes special after. And it was about Bob and this treatment center. And it was basically like, hey, this place is a fucking cult. So, of course, my jaw was on the ground and was like, oh. And that caused major identity crisis for me.

[00:25:14] As you can imagine, I went a little crazy after seeing that and went immediately into therapy. And it's like psychiatry. And then my experience was I was like, I've got to get out of this area. So I moved to Europe. I was fortunate. I was very good at school and smart. And I got a big scholarship. And I decided to move to Europe. So I moved to Dublin, Ireland and finished my undergrad and then did my master's. And ended up staying in Europe for about 11 years doing my education and everything.

[00:25:43] And it was really when I was in Europe that I kind of really started becoming unindoctrinated, for lack of a better word. Because over there, the Europeans, first of all, they have nothing even remotely like that over there. But it was also kind of nice because when I talked to Americans or people in America, other people, they'd be like, oh, that's wild. And, you know, and sometimes there were like degrees of separation from it.

[00:26:10] But there was and I don't know if you all experienced this or not, but there was quite a bit of shame around my experience and stuff, too. It was like, you know, I was ashamed of myself because I realized I had been duped. You know, I was in this place where I thought it was everything and it turned out to just be totally BS. It's really hard to come back from that stuff. I mean, it really just like shatters and challenges your entire sense of self in a lot of ways. And in order for me to rebuild, I just kind of felt like I needed to get the fuck out of

[00:26:37] Dodge and get somewhere where just people didn't know me and I could kind of reinvent myself, for lack of a better word. And it was great because in Europe, whenever I would, you know, I tell the French or the Irish or the Germans or the Danish or whoever my friends were about what happened, I wouldn't go into detail on it, but I would lightly touch on it. And they just thought their response was always like, that is so American. That's so American, you know? So it kind of took some of the shame away from it and they would just laugh about it.

[00:27:06] They'd be like, oh, this would never happen in Germany or, you know, whatever. And then they just like- It is uniquely American. Yeah, it is kind of a uniquely American thing. So then we would just move on from it. And I was going to AA meetings and 12-step meetings and stuff over there, but like, you have to understand overall, particularly on the continent, on continental Europe, everything is just so much more secular than it is over here. And it doesn't have that kind of religious and indoctrinational undertow to it, mostly

[00:27:36] because the Europeans have had their experience with that. You know, they went through like the Catholicism and the Protestant Reformation, you know, the variations on empire and stuff like that. So they've kind of seen it socially. They've seen it and been through it. So it's just this really kind of secular culture. And it really made it easier for me to just kind of integrate and re-identify in that kind of society. And then, you know, because of my research interest in everything, I was really interested in terrorism.

[00:28:03] And I was really interested in not just terrorism, but how individuals become indoctrinated because 9-11 had happened while I was in the cult and everything. And then by the time I got out and just a lot of the language that people were using to talk about like radicals and particularly Islam at the time and fundamentalists and all of that, it was just really simplified language. And as someone that had kind of been fundamentalized and radicalized in a treatment setting, I knew that it wasn't that black and white and that there was a lot of nuance and complication that

[00:28:33] goes into that kind of thing. So I became very fascinated by it and kind of dedicated my academic pursuits to understanding identity formation and radicalization. And that was what led to a lot of my personal and academic research. This could be a different episode. I'm just curious, what parallels are you drawing right now? And do you see Islam? I guess, is the Islam rhetoric that's going on in Europe and a little bit right now in the United States something to be alarmed about?

[00:29:00] Uh, I mean, I think, you know, there's, it's just like anything else. There's like religion and then there's healthy religion and there's kind of healthy ideology, which we all have in one way or another. Yeah, there's the tagline that we have. It's every group has an extreme version of itself. Totally. Yeah, exactly. So there's... How bad do you think it is? Should people in New York be alarmed? Should, do you think... I do think it's gotten pretty bad, but I don't think it's gotten to the point that

[00:29:27] it's not something that nobody can like come back from or anything like that. I just think right now it's... The thing with fundamentalism, radicalization or anything like that is it's always that pendulum swinging that's always driven by like elite interests. You know what I mean? So in like these troubled teen programs, you have to think of them as like their own little fiefdoms, you know? And like, if you look at the recovery world generally, it's kind of its own meta community if you want to look at it that way.

[00:29:56] And then within the recovery community, there are a bunch of different sub-communities that kind of are variations of extremism within that. And they take like very literal expressions of like the big book, for instance, the AA basic texts. And they, you know, there are like sects out here called like the Pacific group or the Atlantic group. And I mean, if you go to those meetings... Oh yeah, we've done episodes. That's the one we did an episode on. Yeah, yeah. There were like thousands. I've gone to these meetings and I knew the like head honcho for the Pacific, this guy

[00:30:26] named Clancy for a long time. He's, you know, nice enough dude, but you know, he was a total, like, he was like Bob, you know what I mean? And these guys, they just, they create their fiefdom. And when you see them for what they are, you're kind of like, oh, that's cute. This guy thinks he's like a cult leader and like, you know, whatever. And you know what I mean? You almost want to go and pat him on the head and be like, oh, isn't that nice? You know, it's little Bobby trying to do his thing. But, you know, what you don't see is that there are a lot of people that don't know

[00:30:52] that he's just little Bobby and that this guy, you know, and there's an interest in that, you know, whether it's like social that they get to be kind of revered as almost a God, or there's almost always a financial bent to it where they, you know, either directly or indirectly get money from people as a result of it. Look at any of the like cults that have done Netflix documentaries and stuff like that. I always say to people about that, it's like, well, look, who's getting rich off of this. Somebody is. Somebody's making money off of it.

[00:31:19] You know, it's like the whole MAGA thing, not to get political or to pull it that way or just kind of generally what's going on politically in the world. It's like, yeah, somebody's making money off of it. It's like, you know, and the PIBs do it as well. The conservatives. Yeah, there's a marketing campaign. Yes. There's always some sort of marketing campaign behind these groups. Yeah, somebody's selling something. And if somebody's selling something, then that means somebody's buying it and somebody's making money off of it. Which reminds me, at what point did you realize you weren't and never were an alcoholic?

[00:31:49] Yeah, well, that is tough. That is a very tough thing to unpack because, and again, a lot of people are like, God, you were in recovery for like 20, I think it was like 23 years or something like that before I was finally like, wait a minute. The honest answer to that is, is I had my first realization of it probably about, oh God, the first 90 days that I was out of the group after we got, you know, graduated and all of that stuff.

[00:32:18] There was a guy in AA who really hurt my feelings at the time. But looking back on it, he fucking was trying to save my life. But he basically sat me down and was like, dude, you do not belong here. Like you do not belong here. And I was so- And you're like, where do I belong? Where do I belong? Exactly, exactly. And I was like, oh my God, well, if I don't do this and that. And I didn't know if I was an alcoholic or whatever, but I knew that my life, the family life that I grew up in and the environment that I came from was not a healthy one to begin with.

[00:32:45] And then this group environment and this group identity that they had given me turned out to not be a healthy one. So I was like, look, this is kind of all I've got. You know what I mean? So if I don't have this, then I don't have anything else to fall back on. And I didn't think about that until many years later when I was in Europe and people were, you know, because this is the problem with like cult mentality and just groupthink stuff in general is, and it's my main problem with like AA for like young people, particularly

[00:33:15] as I personally think that it should be illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to be able to attend AA meetings and stuff like that. Or quite frankly, like residential treatment programs and stuff. Because at that point, if you look at anything from like developmental psychology or anything like that, your teen years are the most influential when it comes to defining like who you are as an individual. So when these individuals start imprinting all of these external ideas on you, it becomes

[00:33:42] very, it's not like an eraser where you just go and you're like, oh, I didn't like that. So I'm going to erase it and like rewrite something else. On your teenage years, it gets really imprinted on you. So it takes a long time to kind of unravel that. And it was years of psychoanalysis in London, of all places, where I went to a very famous place. It's kind of where Freud and all those guys did all their stuff, but it was called the Tavistock in Portman. And it's like a big place for like psychoanalytics. And I did about four and a half years of psycho, deep psychoanalytic therapy with in like

[00:34:11] groups and then one-to-one with practitioners. And it was at that time that I really started kind of unwinding the identity thing and really started challenging AA. Immediately AA became my identity after the group. And then with the help of the therapist at Tavistock, I started to untangle that. And then when I moved to LA because of a job and all of that stuff, I started meeting people in the treatment space, obviously in the recovery space, because I was just inundated with AA. And that was really when it all started unpacking.

[00:34:40] When I started seeing the like economics of treatment behind it. And I got asked for like programs on the consulting side, I started seeing how the sausage was made. And that was really when the light bulb came on. And I was like, wait a minute, this is all bullshit. Because at that point I was like, okay, these cult treatment centers are bad. And then it was like, okay, this specific type of ideology is bad. And I feel like that is pretty consistent with a lot of cult survivors and survivors of people generally that have been in like radical environments.

[00:35:10] It's not like you completely question your identity all in one segue. And it's like, oh, boom, here you go. I'm just delivered from this. I think for me, it was definitely kind of an incremental portion. But seeing how the sausage was made and then really learning the like business side of treatment was really what opened my eyes of it. I was like, oh, this is all just, it's to make money. I was like, they're getting there. You know, you're, you're getting something that if you really think about it,

[00:35:37] addiction or drug addict, alcoholism, like whatever, there's no real hard science to define any of that. It's a self-diagnosed thing anyway. You kind of have to come and be like, yeah, I think I'm it. Or I don't think I'm it. And then there's a variety of different things to unpack that. Sorry, I went on a whole little tangent with all of that. That to me is where it gets super interesting. Because I think if you can take the air out of the tires of those organizations, a lot of this stuff goes away and they leverage altruism.

[00:36:06] They leverage helping people and they actually abuse the people they pretend to help. So to make money off them. And that's the most diabolical thing. And that's where I think capitalism kind of has its, its blind spots, you know, checks and balances. So I know to me, putting language to that, I'm never going to stop anyone who's going to put language to that. It's never a boring conversation for me personally. I also think it's one of the and I completely agree with that. And, you know, my friends and, you know, all of that stuff think I'm this like hippie,

[00:36:34] you know, communist or something like that living in the People's Republic of West Hollywood. But I'm very much a capitalist and believe in and love making money and all of that. But I do think that there have to be kind of curbs on capitalism. You know what I mean? And I definitely think that. Yeah. Yeah. Like health care. Health care or some of those places where there need to be like significant curbs. Because I think that's like the big problem with it now is people have found out that, you know, there's money in indoctrination for lack of a better word.

[00:37:05] And there's money in attention and any means of getting attention and sitting and having nuanced conversations and trying to think things through is harder for people judging and being, you know, flamboyant and being, you know, shocking gets more clicks. And there's a business model that supports that, unfortunately. And, you know, either that'll self-correct or, you know, there'll be some other problems. I don't know. I don't have an answer. Yeah. Well, that's kind of been my advocacy since writing the book. Let's get into that.

[00:37:34] And I very much believe in survivor stories. And as I was working in the behavioral health industry, I got into it kind of like most things accidental because, you know, I was this academic and then I got recruited by a company to move here to Los Angeles. We have a podcast accidentally. Yeah. Even cult podcasts need sponsors. Check out these must-haves.

[00:38:17] Sponsor Breaks Done. Back for more culty stories. So I was working in like a completely different sector, but I was still going to like recovery meetings and doing that. But I had always just kind of looked at my treatment experiences like a guy explained it to you. He was like, look, dude, you had a shitty treatment experience. A lot of people have shitty treatment experiences and just, you know, leave it at that. And I was like, yeah, okay, that's fine. Like, you know, it was one of those sections of my life where I was like, I'm not going

[00:38:46] to revisit this. It's, you know, I'll look at it every once in a while, but it's not polite. It's there kind of one of those situations. And then when I was working in treatment, I started coming across some of these education consultants. And what really freaked me out was I started coming across some of these guys from my treatment center, like guys that were stiff, that were counselors in the cult that I was in. And I was like, wait a fucking minute. Like these, how are these guys still around? There were like ABC news specials done on these guys. They were on, you know, TV. I was like this episode aired after the fucking Oscars.

[00:39:16] Like, how are these people still around? And they had just kind of morphed and they changed their names. They moved states or they just operate under a different LLC or whatever it was. And I was like, oh my God. And at this point it was like 20 something years after I had left the cult. And I was doing some like marketing and consulting diligence for a treatment center. And I ended up sitting in the office of one of the counselors of the treatment center that I went through, the guy who was there when I graduated. And he didn't fucking recognize me.

[00:39:45] And I was like, this is, it felt a bit like Daniel on the lion's den, but I was like, this is fucking amazing. He has no idea who I am. He had no idea about anything. And it was just all the paraphernalia from when I was in the group and all of that was just there. And that was kind of one of my aha moments where I was like, oh my God, this is completely fucked. Like this whole business model that they're operating on is like completely fucked. And at that time I had operated under the assumption that programs like that, that I went through

[00:40:13] were kind of outliers. You know what I mean? That for the most part, everybody in the treatment program, they were like, they were outliers that most of these guys just wanted to help people and this and that. But then the more that I started, you know, doing the business side of consulting, you just in social science research, there's particularly if you do qualitative research and particularly with things like surveying and stuff like that, when you're interviewing people or you're looking for patterns and everything, you know, you've kind of reached the point of exhaustion or that

[00:40:43] you've exhausted your research studies or your interviews and everything where things start to repeat themselves a lot. We call it saturation and some social science research, but it's like once things start becoming repetitive, you know, you have your patterns and that's how you start drawing inferences. And I had been working in the industry for a couple of years at that point, like two, maybe three years. And I just started noticing the same recurring patterns again and again and again and again. And all of these programs were like, oh, but we're different. And I was like, baby.

[00:41:12] But then Paris came out initially and she kind of blew the gates off the door, for lack of better word, with her confession and the stuff that she started doing. And I was enthralled by it. I mean, I still think to this day that she's a hero and, you know, that she should be celebrated for what she's doing. But I was working in the industry at that time and I was at a big conference that supports a lot of wilderness programs and there were education consultants and all that stuff.

[00:41:38] And by the way, talking about drug addicts and alcoholics, just hang out at one of these fucking ed consultant or wilderness program conferences. These people get ripped at these things. So I was there with a bunch of trashed. And oh my God, these people, they're alcoholics. Like I have never seen such like debaucherous drinking in my life as I ever have at like a wilderness or an education consultant conference. Like unbelievable. Like ed consultants getting in fights with bouncers at like honky tonk bars and getting kicked out.

[00:42:08] I mean, just like it's hilarious. And then they show up at the conference the next day, like nothing ever happened. And everyone's like, oh, that was a good time. Yeah. The irony is just unmistakable. But I was at one of these big conferences and everybody was talking about Paris. Everybody was talking about Paris. And I don't, I know Paris. It's not like Paris. It's not like if you mentioned my name to Paris, you'd be like, oh yeah, Corey. It's nothing like that. But I know Paris. And more in particular, I know those places that Paris went. And I know a lot of people that were in those treatment programs with Paris.

[00:42:38] Some of them were people that were in the same treatment program I was in. Because most kids, particularly rich kids, they just get passed on from treatment program to treatment program. So their parents have the money so that, you know, they're spending millions a year on their kids in treatment. So all these ed consultants were like, oh, she's full of shit and this and that and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, she's not. I started pushing back. I was like, no, she's not. She's not full of shit. In fact, I know people that were at her program or I know people that were in treatment with her.

[00:43:07] They were at this boarding school or that boarding school or whatever. Or frankly, some of the stuff that she was talking about, I was like, it happened to me when I was in treatment. And I know a lot of other people that it happened to. So I really started pushing back against this narrative. And as you can imagine in the treatment industry, that's a big no-no. So everybody's like, you know, drinking the Kool-Aid and doing all of that. But there's kind of an unspoken rule is that nobody talks shit about anybody else in the industry. Of course, communication is dangerous. Absolutely.

[00:43:37] And just more and more people were like, this is bullshit. This is bullshit. So I kind of switched gears and I was a very high paid consultant in the industry, not a consultant in the sense of like, I wasn't like an education consultant or anything like that. But I was like a business consultant in the treatment side. And I just started running into a bunch of stuff because they would also do things like, and I started bringing this up, like they would hire me to be a consultant. And my expertise is in marketing and advertising. I used to do it for companies like Rolls Royce and like a bunch of others.

[00:44:07] So I know how to market and advertise to ultra high net worth families. And they love me because I had 20 years sober. I have this crazy story. I had a great academic pedigree, you know, well-spoken, blah, blah, blah. So the treatment centers loved me and they knew that I was good at business. I knew how to like, you know, grow and do all of that stuff, scale companies. And they wanted me to come on, but they kept trying to put these like quotas on me. And I was like, what the hell is this? And they were like, well, you know, you've been with us for like six months or whatever.

[00:44:35] And we haven't really gotten that many patients in, or we've gotten a lot of patients in or whatever. And they would constantly have these talks with me about it. And I was like, look, I don't know why the fuck you guys keep having these conversations with me about this and that. But I was like, and they called it marketing. And I was like, but like traditional marketing and advertising is like, I help you develop the copy. I tell you where to place the copy of the advertising. And then, you know, we have some metrics that see how those are kind of converting or not converting. But other than that, I don't have anything to do with it.

[00:45:05] I don't want to talk to mentally ill people. I certainly don't want to talk to mentally ill children, try and get them into your treatment center. Like, I just didn't feel comfortable about any of that, but they were constantly wanting me to do that. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do this. Or if I would, I talked to the parents and they all, the treatment programs would almost want to sell me off as if I were a doctor because I have a PhD. They were like, oh, but you've got all this education, whatever. And I was like, yeah, I do have six degrees, but none of them are in psychology. Well, you're a good spokesperson.

[00:45:35] Exactly. Throw a white lab coat on you. Yeah, exactly. So they started wanting to do that. And then they started wanting to do the academic in me because I was doing business consulting. I was like, well, let's talk about research and outcome studies because they were like, oh, we need to promote our program. And we're doing this and we're doing that. So I was like, sure. Like, again, I'm not a clinician. I don't do clinical research, but I consider myself a pretty good research scientist. And I know how to design like surveys research. So I was like, sure, I can help with outcome study.

[00:46:05] And anyway, the pieces just started falling into place. And between them saying that like Paris was lying and that these other survivors were lying. And anyway, I kind of started unearthing that, you know, not all is well in the world of behavioral health and treatment, but it's a hell of a lot more than just a few odd bad actors and stuff like that, that there's a systemic problem going on. And the more that I kind of started pulling and pulling, I was like, oh, well, this isn't really accurate outcome data. That's not really an accurate outcome study.

[00:46:35] You're excluding this person. You're excluding that. Oh, you had four or five people die in your treatment program. That wasn't in the brochure. Like what's going on here? So there was just a lot of like reporting and self-reporting that was just very dishonest. And that was where I was like, okay, something really needs to like change. Was there a final straw? Yeah. I mean, the final straw for me really was these companies like shitting on folks like Paris Hilton and people like that.

[00:47:02] And then the big, I guess, hoorah for me was, oh God, it was working for a couple of companies and really just figuring out that there was no there there. Like these companies and the people there would really be like, oh, we really care about people. And this is like a mission for us. And, you know, we really care about science and this and that. And then you just start digging beneath the surface a little bit and you find out that it's all bullshit. Like I'll give you an example. One company I was consulting for believed in this individual a lot.

[00:47:30] I was personally friends with her and she was a sidey and all of that. And which is like a doctoral psychology. And it turned out that she wasn't even licensed. So I was like recommending people and doing stuff. And it was my fault because it had never just occurred to me to check her license. But a friend of mine was like, oh, I tried to do something or whatever with this person and we couldn't get it done because she's not licensed. And I was like, well, what the fuck are you talking about? She's not licensed. She's the chief clinical officer of this program.

[00:47:58] She's like developing adolescent programs and this and that. Like, what do you mean she's not licensed? Like that's fucking impossible. There's no way that that's up. So I went on one of the state licensing boards and it's pretty easy and I should have done it before, but I looked her up and looked her name. And not only wasn't she licensed, she was suspended from getting a license because she had failed the fucking test so many times. They put like a restriction on her, like taking it again.

[00:48:23] So I called this consultant clinician up and was like, what the fuck is going on? Because I had been recommending individuals to this program. And, uh, and she was like, oh, well, you know, it's all bullshit and blah, blah, blah. And I just hadn't taken the test and I'm basically a clinician anyway. And yada, yada. And I was like, no, you're not. I was like, if you're not licensed, then you're not a fucking clinician. You're not, you're like a medical intern. That's like doing surgery on his own without a doctor assisting him. I was like, you can't even pass the goddamn test.

[00:48:53] Like, this is a problem. And I kind of blew my top on that. And after that, that was when I was like, I'm writing a fucking book about this shit. I was like, and everybody was like, you should write a book about this. You should do this and that, whatever. And that was probably like two, three years ago. And that was when I was like, all right, I'm really going to invest some time and energy and started doing some reflection. And that's when I wrote selling sanity. And I'm sure the industry loves you. I was going to say, I went from an extremely high paid, successful treatment career to

[00:49:22] nothing at all very quick. So I think my dad said my next book should be on how to kill a career. Or stand for what's right. Yeah. Yeah. One of the two. Have they just completely like, did they give you any opportunity to come in and try to change things? Or are they just, did they blacklist you? When I wrote my book, oh, I got blacklisted like pretty quickly. And at first it was interesting because a lot of my friends and, and I mean, I knew it was going to piss people off in the industry, but I thought that there were enough naively.

[00:49:51] So I thought that there were enough like good people or whatever it is in the industry that would kind of back me and be like, yeah, okay. What he's saying is really true. And you know, there are some real problems here. A few people initially did that, but they backed off like really quick. I mean, the amount of people that just told, called me a liar. They were like, we think you're lying. We don't, we, this, but they do it in a very nice therapeutic way. They're like, we don't think this reflects an authentic experience, Corey.

[00:50:20] And I'm like, oh, so that's a nice way of calling me a fucking liar. But so a lot of that, which is what they've done with, you know, a lot of other people, a lot of folks in the community, in the treatment world, especially because I'm not in AA anymore. They're like, oh, he's just like crazy drug addict, blah, blah, blah, and whatever, which is like, okay, sure. You could go down. So it's all the kind of standard stuff that they do to discredit people. It's like, oh, he's on a relapse. That sucks. He's mentally ill. I actually don't think it sucks because you get an opportunity to demonstrate otherwise.

[00:50:48] And it actually, it's actually a rite of passage when you stand up to these things. You're going to have to get some pushback, right? And the pushback is the first indication that you're doing something positive. And then the slander and the lies. And I think we're at a point in time. That was when I really knew I was doing something. We're at a point in time where people recognize that, right? Like when I see that you're taking crap and then I talk to you, I go, oh yeah, he's on the right track. So what did you think of Wayward? Oh my God.

[00:51:17] It does feel good doing what I'm doing. And oh my God, what do I think of Wayward? It's funny. I was watching it with my wife and my wife is a journalist. She's seen all kinds of stuff. And I met her in London many years ago. She, for whatever reason, decided to marry me. But she was the one that was like, oh, you should definitely write a book and talk about this stuff, but she was the one that told me about Wayward initially. And when we sat down to watch it, I had to, it was so good. It was so good.

[00:51:44] And it so reflected my experience of being in the group and the cult. I mean, especially the way that we all would like turn on each other. And I think what the Wayward movie did. Yeah, the tattletailing and the way that people would like amp other people up just so they could gain favor with the counselors and stuff. That was completely my experience of what it was like at Insight. I mean, everybody was just trying to like, you wanted to be the golden child because one

[00:52:11] that meant your life was going to be okay, that they weren't going to shred you emotionally and mentally. That meant that you weren't going to be on the hot seat, that you were going to get lots of positive attention and that all the other people, it's kind of like being a rock star in a little like geosphere or whatever is to be one of the counselors boys or girls or whoever. But that movie was so triggering for me. I had to stop watching it. And I would like walk around for like 15 minutes at a time. And then I would sit back there and watch it.

[00:52:40] We didn't finish it. I didn't finish it. We stopped at like episode four. And I actually talked about this on someone else's podcast about what I thought. And I said, I mean, I wasn't in, we weren't in Troubled Teen Industry and we still found it triggering because it's the same dynamics of the tattletailing, the feedback, the punishment. Shame. My only thought, my only sort of negative thing I just have to say, and I'm wondering how you feel about this is all of the stuff with the school, we know, you know, is accurate, bang on.

[00:53:05] But then because they added this sort of psychological horror thriller element to it, you know, like the next level stuff. The Stranger Things vibe. Like the Stranger Things vibe and the scary music and like the, you know, the fact that the whole community was in on it. And like, it was a, like, it almost made me think, did that do a disservice to somebody like what you and Meg Applegate are trying to do in terms of shining light? Did making it a psychological horror, which was, and it's already horrific enough.

[00:53:31] Did that maybe like damper the possibility that people take this seriously? I don't know. That was my, that was a thought that I had. What did you think? Yeah. I had to say, it's funny you say that I had the same feeling. I mean, I guess for artistic license, I guess I understood what they were trying to do. You know, you have to make it kind of compelling and whatever. But at the same time, I think it made it, you know, maybe made it more accessible to like a wider audience in terms of relatability or something like that. I don't really think it took away from the story.

[00:54:01] I just wish that people would make more biographical or documentary style films in that vein that are much more accurate. Because there are so many things about that movie that just, I mean, they nailed it. I don't know. Yeah. Like just, let's inform instead of entertain. That was actually the first thing I said on the other podcast is like, first of all, let me say, I'm glad they're putting their money behind this topic and shining light. Overall, that's good. This is just one little thing. Like it didn't have to be so psychologically horrific because it already was.

[00:54:31] You know what I mean? Like just that world is horrific. Anyway, we should wrap. I know we didn't even get into like all the billion dollar industry stuff that people can find out in your book if they want to dig a little deeper. And can they reach out to you if they have questions, if they have a troubled teen? Anyone can reach out to me anytime. You can please buy my book or check my book out. And I'm pretty active on Substack as well. I have a very active Substack. You know, I write prolifically about all of the topics of the troubled teen industry,

[00:55:01] particularly the economics and the referral economy, which I think is one of the most under misunderstood and under understood things about the troubled treatment team, troubled teen treatment industry and the behavioral health care system in America in general. And it's part of my advocacy. And I hope people will read my book and write to me. They can also find me at CoreyGentry.com. It's my website. You can get in touch with me there. But the biggest thing that I move towards now in my advocacy and what I work and I've been

[00:55:29] doing some really great partnering with people at Unsilenced and Eleven and, you know, our friends Meg Applegate in Paris' nonprofit is working on getting legislation to rein in the referral economy of this. Because in my opinion, the best way to disrupt the troubled teen industry is to restrict how referrals are made into these programs. And it's not like you and I would walk into some, oh, I don't know. It's not like we would go to our school guidance counselor or some just random therapist in

[00:55:58] like, you know, Atlanta and be like, hey, my kid's struggling with this and that or whatever. And who knows? Maybe the therapist is licensed or unlicensed. It doesn't matter. And then that person may, these are the people that are making treatment recommendations to these programs and stuff like that. It would be insane if we did that and they were like, oh yeah, you need to go see this cardiologist for open heart surgery. I would put treatment on the same level as something like that. So what I'm advocating for is that it should only be licensed social workers and licensed

[00:56:27] psychiatrists, frankly, or licensed doctorate level licensed psychologists who are able to make those treatment recommendations. And they should only be able to make those types of treatment recommendations after extensive diagnostic testing has been done. Correct, yeah. Not like, oh, your kid smoked a joint. Send them to the wilderness. It explains a natural rite of passage age where people are supposed to struggle and says, oh, they're struggling. They're supposed to. Let's send them here. So it's a lot of bullshit. Totally, yeah.

[00:56:55] And I mean, you know, a lot of this stuff for parents in a lot of ways are just as much important for it because parents... Yeah, they need the therapy. Yeah. And most therapists and psychiatric providers will tell you that when they're dealing with kids, it's like, look, if you really want to help a kid get better psychiatrically, don't worry about treating the kid. Treat the family. Treat the parents. 100%. They'll get better. But, you know, the kids are the ones being shipped off to these, like, you know, outdoor prisons, basically.

[00:57:21] So I'm advocating heavily for getting the way the referral economy of the treatment programs are sort of distributed, for lack of a better word. Because I feel like if you can put the reins on that and there's an accountability mechanism with that, because if a psychiatrist is like... If you can go to a psychiatrist and be like, hey, man, I noticed that you've diagnosed like 150 kids with this disease thing or whatever, and you've sent them to these treatment programs, and it turns out that these places are abusive or they're doing this or that or whatever,

[00:57:50] you have a very clear mechanism to hold accountable. You go to that psychiatrist and you say, hey, what's going on with these recommendations? And, you know, that person will want to be able to justify it because their ability to practice as a professional is dependent on their license. So I think that's where the accountability comes in. Corey, I help you. Well, it was a pleasure being here. Yeah, such a pleasure. I think you're awesome. That was a great... I learned a lot. I love those, yeah. Yeah, especially when I think, I know about that already, and then I get to learn more. It's very satisfying for us.

[00:58:18] Well, the incentive structures and all the things that are, you know... Yes. ...are important. Thank you for your time. We will... This will be out in a couple of weeks. And in the interim, email us back your address. We can send you a copy of the book. Please. And let us know what you think of it. I think you're going to enjoy it very much. And let us know if you're ever back in your old stopping grounds. Yeah, that's right. Buckhead will take you around and show... You can show us where you used to... Oh, I can't wait. Yeah, yeah. Can't wait.

[00:59:02] All right, everybody. We hope that you enjoyed this podcast. In the interim since recording with Corey, he has finished reading the book. And I'm just going to quote you that he said, I read it cover to cover on Sunday. I blew through it in a few hours and it's so good. I'm writing a review from Amazon, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, we're very happy, Corey, that you enjoyed the book and that it was helpful. And we encourage people to read his book and educate yourselves on these programs. Yeah, the incentives in these groups are what's off.

[00:59:31] And that seems to be a parallel with everything that's going on culturally. Yeah, more than a little bit culty. Putting language to that is vital and he does a good job. He sure does. Thanks, everybody. And see you next time on A Little Bit Culty. Deuces.

[01:00:07] We hope you're enjoying A Little Bit Culty. If so, please do show us some love. Drop a rating or leave a review. Hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Even better, send this episode to someone who needs it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit susceptible. Or maybe they just love a good story. Spread the word. Spread the love. Thanks for listening and see you next time. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[01:00:34] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsenbor. Writing by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Swarczynski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.