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[00:00:43] individual, anyone, or anything.
[00:00:46] I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony Air Quotes Nippy Ames
[00:00:58] and this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like
[00:01:04] a great thing at first go bad.
[00:01:06] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories
[00:01:10] told directly by the people who lived through them.
[00:01:13] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.
[00:01:16] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already
[00:01:20] prime recruitment material.
[00:01:22] You might even already be in a cult.
[00:01:24] Oops, you better keep listening to find out.
[00:01:26] Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.
[00:01:44] Welcome back dear listeners.
[00:01:50] Starseeds, light beings, seekers of transformation, have we got a pitch for you?
[00:01:55] Starseeds, really?
[00:01:56] Yeah.
[00:01:57] Go with it.
[00:01:58] It's a self-study spiritual curriculum that blends light Christian terminology with
[00:02:03] metaphysical teachings plus a dash of Freudian psychology and a light spritzing of
[00:02:09] platonic philosophy.
[00:02:10] It's like an apparel spritz.
[00:02:12] That's right.
[00:02:13] The curriculum we're talking about, it's practically a greatest hits compilation of
[00:02:16] new age bangers.
[00:02:18] It consists of three books, a text, a workbook for students, and a manual for teachers.
[00:02:25] And it has been blessed by Oprah herself.
[00:02:28] Well, well, well, Oprah, I think this is your third cameo on one of our episodes.
[00:02:33] Maybe even fourth.
[00:02:35] And if you really commit to the study of it and surrender to its radical intensity,
[00:02:39] you can shift your perception from fear to love and travel forgiveness as a path to
[00:02:44] awakening.
[00:02:45] You're only a shift away from a miracle at any moment.
[00:02:48] Go on, I've never heard this before.
[00:02:50] Okay.
[00:02:51] So we're talking about the course in miracles.
[00:02:54] Do you know what listeners?
[00:02:55] Is it on your bookshelf?
[00:02:57] No judges from us.
[00:02:58] We definitely have owned a copy of it.
[00:03:00] And by we, I mean someone in our production team, guess who?
[00:03:04] Not me.
[00:03:05] And based on the number of emails and messages that we get from you
[00:03:07] requesting that we cover it on a little bit culty, you know it as well.
[00:03:12] And while there are millions of admirers of a course in miracles or ACIM as we may call
[00:03:17] it throughout this episode, there's a growing number of critics and effectors who are speaking
[00:03:28] up about it.
[00:03:29] ACIM, you're sounding a little bit culty.
[00:03:32] Our guest today, Andrew Lecompt is one of those critics.
[00:03:36] He's a lovely, sweet man and he's got the definitive story to tell.
[00:03:39] At least one part of the story growing up in a loveless authoritarian household primed Andrew
[00:03:44] for an adulthood where he looked for love in all the wrong places.
[00:03:48] When his AA sponsor introduced Andrew to a course in miracles, it sparked a 20 year
[00:03:52] study of the course that led him to some dark places.
[00:03:56] Like an intentional community in Utah that turned out to be a full blown cult led
[00:04:00] by a celebrated, like an intentional community in Utah that turned out to be a full blown
[00:04:07] alleged cult by a celebrated spiritual teacher.
[00:04:10] Utah, you are so very culty by the way.
[00:04:13] Is it the altitude?
[00:04:14] What is it?
[00:04:15] My dad was born in Utah.
[00:04:16] That's a good thing.
[00:04:17] Thanks.
[00:04:18] For Andrew, it all started off like a proverbial good thing of so many cult survivor stories.
[00:04:23] He taught the course in miracles in Mexico, Spain, Hawaii and Canada and had amazing
[00:04:27] experiences leading him to believe that he was on track to finding the quote love of God,
[00:04:33] all as promised by his teacher.
[00:04:35] But after six years of mistreatment, emotional manipulation and being coerced out of over
[00:04:39] $200,000, he didn't find any miracles.
[00:04:43] His memoir, Finding Miracles, Escape from a Cult is a must read and a cautionary tale
[00:04:48] for seekers everywhere.
[00:04:50] And it suggests that maybe a course in miracles should come with a black box warning may
[00:04:55] cause serious mind fuckery.
[00:04:58] They make those?
[00:04:59] Yep.
[00:05:00] Okay, we're talking to Andrew today about his experience, what drew him to ACIM, where
[00:05:03] it all went sideways and how he only found the love he'd been looking for after he escaped.
[00:05:09] That's a kind of miracle in itself if you ask us.
[00:05:12] Here's our chat with Andrew Lecompt.
[00:05:26] Andy, welcome to A Little Bit Calty.
[00:05:28] Well thank you, Sarah.
[00:05:30] It's just a delight to be here.
[00:05:32] It's a delight to have you and I feel so honored that you have chosen A Little Bit Calty to
[00:05:36] be your first interview ever.
[00:05:38] So let's go back to the beginning.
[00:05:40] What was the initial invite?
[00:05:42] How did you hear about a course in miracles?
[00:05:46] In the beginning, a very good friend invited me to a course in miracles meeting and I
[00:05:54] went and it was way over my head because the course is a very complex book.
[00:06:00] And it's 1200 pages and it's written in a kind of Shakespearean way and it took me a long
[00:06:08] time to get through it.
[00:06:10] I read it twice fully before I even began to understand what it was about.
[00:06:17] But it had an authoritative, clear voice that was inspiring.
[00:06:23] I kept at it for several years going to this course in miracles discussion group.
[00:06:30] And then I went to a conference in Connecticut where David Hofmeister showed up to speak.
[00:06:39] And at first I thought he was some dianetics pushing guy from Los Angeles, had red hair and
[00:06:49] I thought I can't believe they were going to let this guy speak.
[00:06:52] But they let him speak and he was very clear and I was impressed.
[00:06:57] And then we were in kind of a gymnasium building and he walked across the whole floor and came
[00:07:04] and sat next to me and I was surprised.
[00:07:07] And I chatted with him a little bit and he seemed like a very regular normal guy.
[00:07:14] I was watching for him and I found there's a ton of stuff that he had on his internet home
[00:07:22] page and other pages.
[00:07:24] And I began to listen to it and a lot of it I had transcribed and downloaded and I began
[00:07:32] to have a collection of his things.
[00:07:34] And then I went to various retreats that he held.
[00:07:39] The biggest one was in Spain and the island of Mallorca where I was for six weeks with
[00:07:47] him and the messengers.
[00:07:49] And it was wonderful.
[00:07:50] It was a beautiful environment.
[00:07:53] We had a movie every night that David interpreted and did it well.
[00:07:59] They taught me how to take videos of David during that six weeks and make videos that
[00:08:07] we could put on the internet.
[00:08:09] We did that.
[00:08:10] And I thought, oh yeah, well I'm really in with this.
[00:08:15] And then they had a thing called the angel walk where I would walk down with blindfold
[00:08:22] on between two rows of people who would caress me and say welcome to heaven, Andy.
[00:08:30] We love you.
[00:08:31] We're so glad you're here.
[00:08:33] I was blown away.
[00:08:35] And so were the other participants.
[00:08:37] We thought, my God, we found it.
[00:08:39] We found the promised land and in our minds we could take that back.
[00:08:44] What did that feel like?
[00:08:46] I felt like I'd arrived and I was really happy, kind toward other people.
[00:08:52] And I thought, yes, this is it.
[00:08:54] This is the promised land.
[00:08:56] However, there were some red flags.
[00:09:00] Before we get to that, and I do want to hear all the red flags.
[00:09:03] You had a question?
[00:09:04] I was just wondering when he walked across and sat down next to you.
[00:09:08] Did you feel targeted?
[00:09:09] Did you feel like that was an accident in hindsight or what was your thought there?
[00:09:13] With hindsight, I thought, well this was the hand of God or this was to be.
[00:09:20] And later on I felt really chosen when he asked me to edit his first book, which
[00:09:27] was called Awakening through a Course in Miracles.
[00:09:31] And I did it very well.
[00:09:32] It's a good book.
[00:09:34] And I thought, I've arrived.
[00:09:36] Here I am shaping the words of Jesus as David said they were, coming through his mouth.
[00:09:43] And then I was putting them into book and video form for the world.
[00:09:48] And I was excited.
[00:09:49] I felt I was really home.
[00:09:51] You got given some very special roles and tasks.
[00:09:55] Am I right?
[00:09:56] Yeah.
[00:09:57] Yes.
[00:09:58] I'm curious and we're going to come back to that time in a minute.
[00:10:01] But when in your book I was really struck by how you shared your childhood.
[00:10:07] And I'm wondering if you can share a little bit with our audiences now in reflection
[00:10:11] about what was happening in your childhood that perhaps-
[00:10:14] Made you susceptible?
[00:10:15] Made you susceptible to these moments of feeling special and chosen and part of
[00:10:22] this team of angels.
[00:10:23] I didn't really know what love was.
[00:10:26] I was raised in a sort of custodial care.
[00:10:31] My parents were not into parenting at all.
[00:10:36] And yeah, I thought that I was valueless especially.
[00:10:40] You know, I'd be physically spanked by my father and not hugged afterwards by anybody.
[00:10:46] You know, it's just like I decided I was a bad person and unloved.
[00:10:52] And my mother, I was acting out at school.
[00:10:55] My mother was called into a psychologist's office and then she came back and she said,
[00:11:02] Andrew, you know what he asked me?
[00:11:04] He said, do you really love your child?
[00:11:07] And I replied, of course I do.
[00:11:09] I love you and you know it, don't you, Andrew?
[00:11:12] And I went, yeah, because I didn't know.
[00:11:14] Yeah, I had a- my brother was a very talented guy but he was very driven and it turns
[00:11:21] out later he was gay but he was my protector.
[00:11:26] He was the one I was close to in the family and he committed suicide.
[00:11:30] I think I was 19.
[00:11:33] And that really blew my concept of myself in the world to smithereens.
[00:11:40] And I went off to die in Morocco and I was going to just hashish myself to death in
[00:11:48] a cave somewhere.
[00:11:50] And I was about to start that.
[00:11:51] I got into Marrakesh in Morocco and I met this couple who were just the most wonderful loving
[00:11:58] people and they liked me.
[00:12:02] And we had a lot of jokes.
[00:12:04] We traveled around Morocco and we had a blast.
[00:12:08] And I thought, I don't need to die.
[00:12:10] I'm worth something.
[00:12:12] And I came back and yeah, I did.
[00:12:15] I finished at the University of Wisconsin and it turned my life.
[00:12:20] I was really grateful for it.
[00:12:21] Where was that in relation to starting a course in miracles, your Morocco experience?
[00:12:26] Oh, I was in college then.
[00:12:28] I started the course in 1990.
[00:12:32] So I'm 75 actually.
[00:12:35] And- You've lived a life.
[00:12:37] Yeah.
[00:12:38] Yeah, I had done other things that were culty but I didn't know it before I started
[00:12:44] the course, transcendental meditation.
[00:12:48] We have an episode on that by the way.
[00:12:50] Oh good.
[00:12:51] I'll send it to you.
[00:12:52] All right.
[00:12:53] Listen, and Est said, you're responsible for everything in your life, even your partnership.
[00:13:02] And usually people say that's 50-50 but no Est was saying it's all you.
[00:13:06] So I was living with this woman who I didn't really get along with very well but I said,
[00:13:12] that must be my fault.
[00:13:14] So let's get married.
[00:13:16] It was a bad idea.
[00:13:21] When everything is your fault, a lot of ideas come from believing everything's your fault.
[00:13:26] We talk about that actually a lot in this podcast, how there's the good and the bad
[00:13:29] of those concepts.
[00:13:31] It is great to take responsibility for the things in your life but you can't take
[00:13:35] responsibility for somebody else being a bad person or not a good fit for you
[00:13:40] and there's no room for that in those programs about transformation and Est coming soon, by
[00:13:48] the way, coming soon on this podcast channel.
[00:13:51] But before that, so you dabbled in these things but you never really committed full
[00:13:56] on as you did with Course in Miracles.
[00:13:58] What was it about the teachings that caused you to think, hey I'm going to really
[00:14:02] devote my life to this?
[00:14:03] Or was it more about the role you had that David and the leadership gave you?
[00:14:07] Well it was both.
[00:14:08] Okay.
[00:14:10] It was really an accomplished, well I understood, mastered the Course before I went to the
[00:14:19] Living Miracles community in Utah.
[00:14:22] And so I spent a couple years with my second wife talking about it and seeing if we could
[00:14:30] pull it together because the Course says there's this concept of the special love
[00:14:35] relationship.
[00:14:38] And that it's not a good thing.
[00:14:40] It's ego driven and it distracts you from God.
[00:14:44] But the special relationship can be turned into a holy relationship if you listen to
[00:14:50] the voice of the Holy Spirit and things like that.
[00:14:53] And A, I couldn't hear the Holy Spirit and B, she wouldn't have any of it.
[00:15:01] She wasn't interested in a spiritual life.
[00:15:06] It's very much like a humanist now who says, yeah we really have to take responsibility for
[00:15:12] our own behavior.
[00:15:14] There's nobody up in the sky who's going to direct you or tell you what to think or
[00:15:19] do.
[00:15:20] You have to rely on your own morals and values to figure that out.
[00:15:26] We split up on that because I was almost fanatical about the Course being the truth.
[00:15:34] And she took me to her psychologist and we talked, grilled me.
[00:15:39] He said, what do you think you're doing?
[00:15:41] Why are you doing this?
[00:15:42] It doesn't make sense.
[00:15:43] Don't you love her?
[00:15:44] Isn't she a good wife?
[00:15:45] She was a wonderful wife.
[00:15:48] But he said, well then tell me what's going on with you.
[00:15:51] And I said, I really feel I've been called by God to go to this Living Miracles
[00:15:57] community in Utah.
[00:15:59] And that's kind of a conversation stop.
[00:16:01] I thought, OK, I've done it.
[00:16:03] I've broken with the world that was a egotistical special relationship and I'm
[00:16:10] glad to be free of it.
[00:16:11] So it felt noble.
[00:16:13] Yeah, I felt like a crusader setting off to the light like Jesus left his home
[00:16:19] and Peter in the Bible or the fisherman he left home.
[00:16:23] And this is what we were called to do.
[00:16:26] And David Hofmeister said, yes, you're being called out of the world to serve God.
[00:16:34] And I said, wow, wow.
[00:16:35] And then the Course says there is no death.
[00:16:38] And I thought, wow, I'm on the right path.
[00:16:41] I'm so curious about the tenets of the Course itself and how that's like,
[00:16:47] can you tell us a little bit more about the teachings and the main principles
[00:16:50] and how that set you up to have this decision feel like the best thing ever?
[00:16:54] You heard also too, it made love bad.
[00:16:57] Yeah, because it was egoic.
[00:16:58] Yeah, you had an egoic relationship.
[00:16:59] The major desires bad and then it sold you the nobility aspect at the same time.
[00:17:04] Yeah.
[00:17:05] So the Course is a whole different world view.
[00:17:09] It says that back in eternity, the ego had this thought,
[00:17:14] well, would it be like to separate from God?
[00:17:17] And so this part of the ego mind, which would be my mind, split off from God,
[00:17:22] then we're so terrified at having done that it needed a place to hide.
[00:17:27] So it made the world as a place to hide and that this whole world is an illusion
[00:17:33] and that we need to transcend it by forgiving it,
[00:17:38] which means, yes, we take responsibility for making it and all the problems in it
[00:17:45] and we forgive.
[00:17:46] We let it all go, see that it's all an illusion and just focus on the love of God,
[00:17:52] which is a big order.
[00:17:53] And I began to think, OK, my own egoic thoughts aren't worth anything.
[00:17:59] The Course says there are no private thoughts that it's all just an illusion
[00:18:04] and people are illusions.
[00:18:07] Yes, I don't really attach to another person.
[00:18:11] Heavy stuff, really.
[00:18:13] I was into it.
[00:18:14] I thought I can do this.
[00:18:15] David did it and the messengers who are the people who are high up in his hierarchy
[00:18:22] have done it.
[00:18:23] I can do it.
[00:18:24] I'm well on my way, I thought.
[00:18:26] Were you making everything else bad in order to pursue the work?
[00:18:31] Yeah, my wife at the time even put framed photographs of her and my son
[00:18:39] and people in my suitcase, unbeknownst to me.
[00:18:43] And when I started driving west, I stopped at the first motel after a day of driving,
[00:18:50] opened my suitcase and saw them and I threw them away because I thought
[00:18:56] she's just clawing, trying to pull me back from my sacred mission by trying
[00:19:05] to reform these attachments.
[00:19:07] That was first them.
[00:19:09] Yeah, so I'm shocked at what I did.
[00:19:13] This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.
[00:19:18] Are you with us?
[00:19:19] Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus
[00:19:24] episodes, exclusive content and the occasional zoom with our fan favorites
[00:19:28] from our past episodes.
[00:19:29] It's a lot of fun over there people.
[00:19:35] Hey listeners, Sarah here.
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[00:22:02] Break time's over people.
[00:22:04] Let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty.
[00:22:06] It's a good one.
[00:22:08] So you went and did this mission, you moved to Utah to the community.
[00:22:12] What was it like before it turned bad?
[00:22:14] What was the good about?
[00:22:15] It was wonderful.
[00:22:17] It was wonderful.
[00:22:18] We're in Strawberry River Canyon in Utah near Dushan, Utah.
[00:22:26] And it looks like the holy land.
[00:22:30] It's just gorgeous dramatic landscape.
[00:22:33] And it's high desert.
[00:22:35] The air was clear and it just felt like, yeah, I'm in a different world.
[00:22:41] It's not damp and green like New England.
[00:22:45] I'm from New England and I loved it.
[00:22:48] And David was there and he would run these movies in the evening and
[00:22:53] interpret them and have me videotape his talks.
[00:22:59] And I thought here I am doing it.
[00:23:02] And I had already, before I got there, I'd edited his book called Awakening
[00:23:09] Through a Course in Miracles.
[00:23:11] And I did a great job and I thought, oh, they're gonna be really happy for me.
[00:23:17] And I'm very humble.
[00:23:18] I won't even put my name on it as editor.
[00:23:21] But they said, oh, thanks.
[00:23:22] Yeah.
[00:23:23] And that was it.
[00:23:26] And I thought, you know, I'm not drawn into the inner circle.
[00:23:29] And I should have had awareness of these things and let them be flagged.
[00:23:34] Like even back in Mallorca, Spain that first six week retreat that we did,
[00:23:40] I was one of the early discussion meetings with David, all the participants.
[00:23:48] And he was talking.
[00:23:49] And at one point there was a pause and one of the participants looks confused.
[00:23:55] I answered the participant's question.
[00:23:58] I thought we're all in this together, dead silence.
[00:24:02] I couldn't believe it.
[00:24:04] I had obviously violated some unwritten rule that you don't try to usurp the voice of David.
[00:24:13] And I couldn't believe how long the silence went on.
[00:24:17] And then they finally started talking again, but not about anything I had said.
[00:24:22] And I went, I had spent, I don't know, five days in the peace house, which was David's
[00:24:29] first place in Cincinnati.
[00:24:32] And during the whole five days, he hardly said hello to me.
[00:24:38] And I thought, gee, I thought he thought I was a good disciple or something.
[00:24:44] But basically, he continued to ignore me the whole time.
[00:24:50] And I should have seen that there's no real connection here.
[00:24:54] He doesn't really care about me or what I'm thinking you're doing.
[00:24:59] I mean, he likes the results of the videos and the editing.
[00:25:04] You're an asset.
[00:25:05] When I read your book, I felt very strongly wishing I could just transport into time
[00:25:10] and pluck you right out of there because I did not like how you were treated.
[00:25:14] And trust me, we've both been there as assets.
[00:25:19] But I was thinking he's like the Marc Vicente of...
[00:25:21] Yeah, were you working for free?
[00:25:22] Yeah.
[00:25:23] No, I was paying $1,000 a month.
[00:25:25] Oh my God.
[00:25:26] I mean, he sent me around to different places, Spain, Hawaii, Mexico,
[00:25:33] for two different years and Canada.
[00:25:37] And I was like a teacher.
[00:25:40] I would lead discussion groups and take counseling calls from people
[00:25:46] and sort of do a lot of the on-the-ground teaching about the course.
[00:25:52] But I wasn't given anything special or acknowledged for that.
[00:25:57] Because that would have been an ego situation.
[00:26:00] Right.
[00:26:01] Yeah, I thought all of this is appropriate because I'm supposed to dismantle my ego
[00:26:08] and become one who hears the voice of the Holy Spirit, not the ego.
[00:26:14] How convenient for a group to have...
[00:26:16] Being abused is doing the work.
[00:26:18] Yeah, for a group to extort value from people to function and thrive,
[00:26:22] they have to tell people that asking for compensation or renumeration
[00:26:27] or appreciation would be egoic.
[00:26:29] Like how convenient?
[00:26:31] Yeah.
[00:26:32] Fuck.
[00:26:34] Well, that's what I thought.
[00:26:35] Like I think most of my problem was because of David as a narcissist cult.
[00:26:43] In your opinion.
[00:26:44] Yeah, in my...
[00:26:47] My humble opinion.
[00:26:49] But I also looked at the course too and I said,
[00:26:52] yeah, this is a good primer, a good set up belief system for a cult leader
[00:26:58] to come in and say, OK, I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit,
[00:27:02] I hear the voice of Jesus, I'll tell you.
[00:27:05] And, you know, I believed that.
[00:27:08] And I was hoping and hoping I'd hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and never did.
[00:27:14] That was a part, I noticed in your book that you were...
[00:27:17] Like what did it mean to you that everyone else was hearing this voice and you were not?
[00:27:22] Everyone wasn't, but David and the messengers were.
[00:27:26] Right.
[00:27:26] So the messengers were people who devoted their lives to this ministry.
[00:27:32] They'd given everything they owned to it.
[00:27:36] So if they were married, they divorced or if they had a house, they sold it and gave everything
[00:27:43] really effectively to David.
[00:27:45] And these people, he thought they could hear the voice of the Holy Spirit too.
[00:27:53] So they would direct things.
[00:27:55] Not I had some doubts about that because actually they were just human beings.
[00:28:01] And I could see they were making some kind of mistaken decisions.
[00:28:05] But I thought, well, you know, they're learning to or they're evolving.
[00:28:10] I forgave everything.
[00:28:12] Did you voice those doubts and if so what would have happened?
[00:28:14] Well, remember this one time I was sitting at a table where we were having a kind of...
[00:28:19] We used to have an afternoon expression session and I was sitting there with a messenger
[00:28:26] and we started arguing about something.
[00:28:29] And I said something that really upset this messenger.
[00:28:35] And she said back to me, you can't say that.
[00:28:38] You don't even deserve to be here.
[00:28:41] You should leave.
[00:28:43] And I said, no, I'm not going to leave.
[00:28:46] You'll leave.
[00:28:47] And she got up and left the room, which was my sort of only little victory in that department.
[00:28:55] In reading your book, it's clear that you've had a lot of healing and recognizing the journey
[00:29:01] that you've been on and how you were taken advantage of.
[00:29:04] You stayed for a while.
[00:29:06] It seemed like where you were having these doubts that you couldn't but you couldn't reconcile them.
[00:29:11] Tell me some of those points that you saw something and then what were you telling yourself that kept you in?
[00:29:19] For one thing, I was committed to it because I'd burned all my bridges financially and
[00:29:27] relationally with family and friends.
[00:29:30] And so I thought I put 100% into this path.
[00:29:34] I've thought it's the only true path and I'm going to stick with it.
[00:29:38] I have an incident to talk about.
[00:29:41] I was doing great as a teacher of a course in miracles
[00:29:46] and they sent me to Canada for a bunch of teaching.
[00:29:51] And I went with this other guy who was a member of Living Miracles
[00:29:58] and we went off to teach a very sophisticated course group in Canada.
[00:30:06] And I started out, they were talking about relationships.
[00:30:12] And I thought, uh-oh, I got stuck.
[00:30:15] I came against a wall in my mind.
[00:30:18] I thought, I don't believe this stuff about what David said, no people pleasing.
[00:30:24] And I thought, that's ridiculous.
[00:30:27] Jesus was a loving person and he didn't have no people pleasing as his model.
[00:30:35] And I found, I hit the wall at that session and I just decided to shut up and let my colleague
[00:30:44] lead it.
[00:30:45] But after that, I was completely disillusioned.
[00:30:48] I thought the truth in me is that I can't do this.
[00:30:53] I used to be a teacher of empathic communication and I've gone off the deep end.
[00:31:00] I'm the opposite of who I used to be.
[00:31:02] You were a teacher of empathic communication just for our audience before A Course in Miracles.
[00:31:07] Like you had a whole career before A Course in Miracles.
[00:31:09] Yes.
[00:31:10] And I wrote a book about that.
[00:31:11] Right.
[00:31:12] Called Creating Harmonious Relationship.
[00:31:14] Yeah.
[00:31:15] And it was very, it sold out.
[00:31:17] It's very popular and I had a group of trainers working for me
[00:31:22] and we traveled around the country and taught people how to connect more deeply from a heart level.
[00:31:28] And I love that.
[00:31:31] And yeah, it was total opposite of what happened to me in Canada.
[00:31:35] I do find that an interesting part of your journey is that you were very well accomplished
[00:31:40] before A Course in Miracles and a lot of the people, at least for myself,
[00:31:45] like I got pulled in when I was not accomplished yet.
[00:31:49] So it's interesting to me that you had this body of work and had written a book
[00:31:52] and were a leader in your sphere.
[00:31:54] That to me fortifies my instincts that David knew that and sat next to you
[00:32:00] and knew that you might be an asset for what he was doing.
[00:32:02] Targeted you as an asset.
[00:32:04] I think you're on my side.
[00:32:07] Yeah, totally went over my head.
[00:32:10] Is that your first time recognizing that?
[00:32:12] That's what I would do if I was looking for...
[00:32:15] Had you recognized that you were plucked for your ability?
[00:32:19] I thought it's all good because I'm being recognized because God has given me
[00:32:26] these skills and abilities and now he's showing me where to use them.
[00:32:31] And I didn't have any compensation.
[00:32:34] In fact, I paid to be there.
[00:32:37] But I thought what an honor.
[00:32:39] I'm among the first or the holiest or whatever.
[00:32:43] I'm just curious, the person who invited you to the thing where you met David,
[00:32:46] did they know about your skill set?
[00:32:48] Well, it was me who...
[00:32:50] I mean, David talked to me and encouraged me to leave my
[00:32:54] wife and family and house and everything come join the community on the phone.
[00:33:00] So you got a personal invite from Jesus' confidant.
[00:33:03] Yeah, and then one of his messengers also was telling me to do that.
[00:33:07] Oh, handy.
[00:33:09] You got plucked for your immense value and personhood that you had not yet seen for yourself.
[00:33:17] But others did.
[00:33:18] Thank you.
[00:33:19] Yeah.
[00:33:20] Yeah.
[00:33:20] And I went into the meat grinder and got shredded.
[00:33:25] One of the things that was so apparent as a reader and you laid it out so well in
[00:33:29] your book is just the nonstop inconsistencies of the teachings and then the reality and the
[00:33:36] cognitive dissonance that you were in trying to wrap your head around all of that to make
[00:33:41] your decision to stay make sense.
[00:33:44] It's heart wrenching.
[00:33:45] It really was.
[00:33:46] And I feel like you laid that out for a reader who may not understand what it feels
[00:33:50] like in those places.
[00:33:52] And you talked about how you burned your bridges, you were in this cognitive dissonance.
[00:33:56] What was the final, unless there's any of the red flags that we missed that you want to
[00:34:00] share or things that were happening?
[00:34:02] Oh, no.
[00:34:04] That just got me thinking of the final thing which was I was pretty depressed after being
[00:34:11] disillusioned with it but I had nowhere to go.
[00:34:15] And I thought the course could still be right.
[00:34:17] David could still be right even though I'm disillusioned and in a sense I can't get
[00:34:24] off this bus.
[00:34:25] I have nowhere to go.
[00:34:27] And then I was living in Mexico and through one of his messengers David gave me the message
[00:34:37] that I needed to give him all my money or he would kick me out.
[00:34:42] Wow.
[00:34:43] Because you had an inheritance.
[00:34:45] That's right.
[00:34:46] And it had come to me.
[00:34:47] My mail was coming to Utah and the policy was they would just open it and tell me
[00:34:54] if anything was important while I was in Mexico.
[00:34:57] So I got this huge jack and they opened it and then they told me it was there and then
[00:35:04] David said you need to give us all this money which was over $200,000.
[00:35:12] And you know I sweated about it.
[00:35:14] I really had, I thought I have no other choice at least have a place to sleep.
[00:35:19] I couldn't imagine myself going out of the world after I had my mind controlled about everything.
[00:35:26] I thought I can't function in the world.
[00:35:29] And here I have a bed and I'm supposed to be on the right path so I agreed to give him the money.
[00:35:36] And I came up to Utah to give him the money.
[00:35:42] And I thought before I do that there's one messenger who has been my close friend
[00:35:48] and I know cares about me and used to if I was upset about something I would go to her
[00:35:58] and we would lie on her bed and cuddle non-sexually but intimately.
[00:36:04] And I would spill out my guts and then she would say well you know Andy the one thing that's
[00:36:10] keeping you from developing growing spiritually is that you're holding on to this pile of money.
[00:36:17] And yes you should give it up and you'll see that removes the obstacle that's been holding you back.
[00:36:24] Okay I gave the money and not too long after that they kicked me out anyhow.
[00:36:31] And as I was walking out there's this scene I'll never forget this messenger she
[00:36:37] who is very attractive and sweet or standing outside my door as I packed my suitcase
[00:36:43] and I come out into the hall and she's got a completely dead pan or severe almost angry expression on
[00:36:51] her face. And she said you should have told me before you decided to leave.
[00:36:56] Usually they have these things coordinated I didn't and then she said you still owe us money
[00:37:04] the pesos for the taxi fare for some of us to go from Guadalajara to Chapala.
[00:37:13] So I said okay I gave her my wad of pesos and then she was done with me that was it.
[00:37:21] She was collecting her last bit and it was apparent to me that she didn't give a
[00:37:26] shit about me and that was the most devastating realization.
[00:37:32] Oh Annie I'm so sorry.
[00:37:37] For more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called
[00:37:41] Scarred the true story of how I escaped nexium the cult that bound my life.
[00:37:45] It's available on Amazon audible and at most bookstores if you want to see that story in
[00:37:49] streaming form watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO.
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[00:40:29] there is in the book you want to share how you got it back oh yeah I flew back to my sister's
[00:40:36] house and about a year it took me to go into psychiatrists taking medication and I was even
[00:40:47] hospitalized for a while and had ECT treatments but I found my authentic self again particularly
[00:40:58] because of the love of Brenda and I met Brenda shortly after I landed in Boston
[00:41:07] and she is the most loving wonderful person I've ever met and her friends say that about her too
[00:41:15] and it was the miracle when I talk about finding miracles in the book it's really about her
[00:41:23] and she encouraged me to demand my money back and I did I wrote this really professional sounding
[00:41:30] letter and sent it to David and bingo he agreed to give me the money back I think he was afraid I
[00:41:38] was gonna sue them I hinted I might sue them for psychological damages so I gave me the money
[00:41:45] how did that feel yeah it feels good to hear
[00:41:49] yeah that was wonderful when I read that I was I gave you a fist bump
[00:41:57] yeah it was good and other people since I wrote the book have been saying oh gee
[00:42:04] I wish I'd done that I gave them everything one of them says I'm sleeping on a friend's couch
[00:42:11] now I have nothing and people have been afraid not only to ask for their money but just afraid
[00:42:18] to speak up and so I've got fan mail from all over Europe and Australia and Canada from people who
[00:42:26] say yay me too that's what happened to me thank you so much for writing this your story is not a
[00:42:35] unique one-off in this community this happens to a lot of people but they don't talk about it
[00:42:39] because they don't exactly want to get in trouble what's what's the fear in that community I don't
[00:42:44] know what they're afraid of so much except I know I was very afraid like I'm going to read about how
[00:42:50] the Scientology goes after people and we didn't talk to people after they left and so we sort of
[00:42:59] shunned them but nobody went after them but I was terribly afraid to do it myself I thought
[00:43:06] I'm all alone over two million people love a course in miracles I'm going to get killed
[00:43:15] not literally but I'm going to get a lot of angry people writing me messages how could you do this
[00:43:23] and that wasn't true at all I haven't really received one angry message some people
[00:43:30] course leaders have said we interpret the course differently right and I know they do
[00:43:35] and I thought yeah that's fair you know it's kind of like the bible right course in miracles
[00:43:41] you can read it different ways interpret it different ways and practice it different ways
[00:43:46] and there are a lot of course teachers I have the highest respect for
[00:43:51] who teaches it in a loving positive way so most of my criticism is for the cult that was formed
[00:44:00] around the course in Utah so we have a lot of people who write in asking us to cover different
[00:44:06] things and this of course in miracles has been brought up at multiple times and as I emailed
[00:44:10] you about I have a dear friend who actually was also in next year with me who is now
[00:44:15] like a reverend or something in a course of miracles I will share this episode with her
[00:44:20] because I wish more people had told me what they thought when I was an ex-yam but I think it's
[00:44:25] important for people to understand the difference between the book and the community and what do
[00:44:30] you want people to know like who might be into really worthy abuses worthy abuses like where
[00:44:36] do they need to be careful with this journey yeah the only place I think they really need to
[00:44:42] be careful is with living miracles it's an international ministry it's all over the world
[00:44:50] very popular David is very charismatic and they just need to know don't go to live there
[00:44:59] and there are other great teachers on both coasts and in the middle some of whom I've
[00:45:05] sent my book to and they said we're all reading this and yeah I don't want to badmouth any other
[00:45:13] course-based group and there isn't really a organization that's a course in miracles
[00:45:21] there's the founders foundation for inner peace and acim work they're good people
[00:45:30] and they're wise teachers and I'm sorry that this happened in one little nest of a course in miracles
[00:45:38] oh that's a good that's a good thing to be clear about it's a very healthy disposition to yeah we
[00:45:42] used to tell people don't move to albany right take the tools use them don't move to albany
[00:45:49] and now what do you think has been the most healing and how have you found a sense of purpose
[00:45:56] outside of a course in miracles what's your journey been like I'm very grateful for all the people who've
[00:46:03] sent me messages at my website and rule a comp dot com and thanking me for starting this
[00:46:13] and several of them would like to continue talking to each other about their experience so
[00:46:20] we're thinking of finding a way to set that up that is secure and safe for people who are afraid
[00:46:29] then yeah I teach English as a second language I have my life back I'm a happy guy I go to the
[00:46:37] unitarian universalist church in wallfam and it's great it's a diverse group of loving people
[00:46:44] with the same shared values and I republished my book creating harmonious relationships and
[00:46:53] I'm a happy fulfilled retired person and has Brenda she's wonderful we just hug and kiss every day
[00:47:02] and we're just so glad to be alive together sharing life and I mean the only bad thing that's
[00:47:10] happened to me was my son died accidentally he wrote me this loving letter that really let me
[00:47:18] know while I was in the cult that he loved me and that he wanted me to come home and that he forgave
[00:47:25] me for leaving because he could see I did it for my own reasons not to abandon him and that letter
[00:47:33] really motivated me to come home it was an amazing letter yeah it's in the book and I mean I loved him
[00:47:41] so much and he loved me so much we'd had a very close relationship and so I was with him for like
[00:47:48] four years after I get out and then he accidentally I had some fentanyl a little tiny bit that killed
[00:47:57] because fentanyl is very deadly what a tragedy yeah I know he was into so many wonderful things
[00:48:08] and so loving and giving it's really a loss for the world yeah I'm so sorry thanks
[00:48:16] so where's David now he's still online still leading programs you're gonna have a big music
[00:48:23] festival in Utah this summer and attract a lot of people to the canyon to share music and that's
[00:48:30] a fun event the cook from a former event told me that she could feel something was unhealthy
[00:48:40] about living miracles even at the music festival there's more that gets me uncovered
[00:48:47] some of the people who have written to me experienced much more serious abuse and suffering now with
[00:48:55] PTSD and mental illness that's directly related to the trauma that they experienced
[00:49:03] living miracles other than you do you know anyone that's speaking out and how
[00:49:08] how much of an impact is a speaking out having on David that you can tell yeah I don't know of
[00:49:15] anyone I think I broke the ice here and that other people will come along when they see that I'm not
[00:49:22] gone after or harmed by living miracles good for you and of course they're gonna be a lot of
[00:49:28] good people yeah as there were in nexium yeah one question I meant to ask earlier was
[00:49:35] in your healing journey when did you figure out oh that was a cult in your experience took me a
[00:49:43] long time actually I'd been out for a while and I had a talk with Steven Hassan said quite clearly it
[00:49:53] was a cult and then I should write a book and expose him and also got support from Rick Ross who's the
[00:50:02] director of the cult education institute was a wonderful man wrote me a great endorsement
[00:50:10] and I thought wow all of these actually writing the book was the real final therapy yeah
[00:50:18] that did it for me to get it down there the way I see the world now is against you know when my
[00:50:25] mind was all screwed up yeah writing the book I'm out of the woods it's good it's down there
[00:50:32] yeah that's the record that's the truth yes so cathartic highly recommend I mean it can be
[00:50:39] stressful too right I'm imagining some parts but mostly cathartic oh yeah definitely cathartic well
[00:50:45] speaking of endorsements and Rick Ross I know wrote you a lovely one up but I'm gonna read mine
[00:50:51] so I can endorse it officially here on the podcast and thank you so much of course and to our audience
[00:50:57] you know we we've skipped over a lot of key moments and juicy details and personal anecdotes
[00:51:03] I want to leave some things to be discovered in your journey but I will say that I wrote well
[00:51:11] what's on the cover is a short version of the long version I'm gonna read you the long version
[00:51:15] essential reading for anyone searching for life's answers community or a connection to something
[00:51:20] bigger this book is at once a warning to others and a personal journey of self-love and acceptance
[00:51:26] Andrews vulnerable expose of his slow boil into an insidious cult exposes the playbook of how
[00:51:32] coercive control masquerades as a spiritual path a must read mm-hmm thank you and yes that to call
[00:51:41] it a slow boil that's the metaphor of the frog in the water and as it heats up if it heats up slowly
[00:51:50] which is what happened to me you don't notice it and you die it was a slow boil I love it well
[00:51:59] I love that you got you jumped out of that pot you wrote the book you your trail blazing the way for
[00:52:04] other people to come forward you're healing you're living your best life for what you're looking for
[00:52:09] that's what you're looking for outside of it and that's the part that makes me so happy you found
[00:52:14] all of the love my mirror you found the miracle of love outside of the place that promised it
[00:52:20] so I am so happy to have met you I'm so proud of you and I want to know is there anything
[00:52:26] that we didn't cover that you want to say to our audience just encourage them to connect with me
[00:52:33] if they're a former member of the living miracles community so that we know we're not alone that
[00:52:42] was the big thing that was frightening me at the beginning being all alone have everybody said oh
[00:52:49] you're wrong you're wrong you're just screwed up thanks for sharing Andy consider yourself
[00:52:54] a new friends you have new friends here in Atlanta so please come and visit and
[00:53:00] and know that you were here to support you thank you very much Sarah and Nippy this has been great
[00:53:05] to talk with you like what you hear do you give us a rating review and subscribe on iTunes
[00:53:12] every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you
[00:53:17] you know you want to thank you everybody for joining us today with our premier a little bit
[00:53:26] culty course and miracles episode with Andrew Lecompt we urge you to get yourself a copy of
[00:53:32] his memoir finding miracles escape from a cult we'll link that in our show notes it's worth your
[00:53:37] time for those of you feeling defensive about your good time in a course in miracles don't
[00:53:42] forget you can keep your goodness and still be curious about what may have been bad for others
[00:53:48] and ps we don't have any kind of sponsorship deals for the books or authors we feature on the show it's
[00:53:52] not an ad we just like to let you know about things that we think you should read if you're
[00:53:56] interested in learning more about this stuff we just want you to hear some of the non-miraculous
[00:54:00] things that can happen when any texts are teaching our community gets to be too big
[00:54:04] for its spiritual bridges not a main and I'm going to say it again if you love a course
[00:54:09] in miracles love what you love we're not here to yuck your yum okay find us over on patreon
[00:54:14] and let us know what you think let's keep the conversation going till next time bye
[00:54:20] down to the depths of the ocean
[00:54:38] thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culting now to
[00:54:43] discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for general
[00:54:49] informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real
[00:54:55] medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about
[00:55:00] seeking safely in this cult world check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources
[00:55:05] and don't miss sarah's ted talk called how cult literate are great stuff a little bit
[00:55:10] culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by sarah edmondson and anthony nippy aims in
[00:55:15] collaboration with producer will reutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and
[00:55:19] show chaplain slash bodyguard jess temple tardy and our theme song cultivated is by john bryant