Dr. Christine Marie on Trust Me: The False Prophet and the Fight for Justice (Part 2)

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[00:00:29] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:58] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult. And that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:01:26] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A, and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a littlebitculty. Welcome to Season 8 of A Little Bit Culty. Seeking down to the depths of the ocean. Welcome back, everybody, to Part 2 with Dr. Christine Marie. She is a friend. She's a badass.

[00:01:54] She has crazy stories about Catherine Eary, which if you missed Part 1, don't miss it. Go back and listen to it. Now we're going to transition from that era of her life to what happened after you moved to Flagstaff. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand is that you came to help with the transitional time for the members and the women after Warren Jeffs went to prison, which we've covered on other podcasts with Elisa Wall, who was one of the original whistleblowers against Warren Jeffs. So we're not going to get into any of that.

[00:02:22] Focusing on you going to help them and how that turned into a documentary and then getting infiltrated into Sam Bateman's mini group and that journey. So I don't want you to have to recap what's in the doc. Let's just talk more about like things that aren't in the doc or whatever you want to share. And my first question is, are you happy? Does the documentary summarize? Because you didn't have creative control. You didn't get to edit even though you were filming originally. How did that work? Did you contact Netflix?

[00:02:51] Did they contact you? How did this documentary get made? And are you happy with it? A lot of media companies were contacting us. And we just decided to entrust the whole project to somebody that we believed in because victim shaming is so important to me. So we picked Rachel Dretzen and she was with Archimedia and she had the relationship with Netflix. So we were two.

[00:03:20] Sorry, she'd done Keep Sweet and Obey. So she's already established herself as someone who knows what they're doing in this space. Right. Yeah. And so we were too involved in it. We were in it. We couldn't have any creative control.

[00:03:37] And creative control, for those who don't know, means we weren't there deciding which shots to use, what edits, who to blur, who not to blur, nothing like that. We didn't even see it until two weeks before it aired. And I'm very happy with it. Yeah. Was it clear and explicit that you were there to do that?

[00:04:02] And did people filming have to keep your secret in a lot of ways? Was that one of the dynamics? They were the ones filming. No, I understand. Yeah. What I mean is they knew that was the dynamic, is that you were going in there to expose them. No. No, that came later. They were going in. They were going in first to document, and then they infiltrated.

[00:04:29] And then at what point did you realize you needed to get an outside source in? Because that wasn't the original plan, right? There's two steps.

[00:05:06] Okay. And it's sweet that everybody calls me a filmmaker, but I'm really not. You know? I mean, I would help him. And we did. I mean, sometimes I film him with my phone or a GoPro, but you give me a camera. I don't know what the settings are. Right. It's not at all. But he's like a master.

[00:05:25] Anyway, so Sam saw what we were doing and how we were representing the FRBS in such a dignified way versus painting them all as criminals. So he wanted to be in it. It was his idea. And I was against it because I knew that Sam didn't represent the FRBS. He had started his own offshoot.

[00:05:52] And at this time, we didn't know for sure what was going on in terms of his crimes. But then we realized, you know, all these media companies are calling anyway. Somebody's going to do a documentary. And after my own experience being misrepresented, I thought, why don't we film?

[00:06:14] Why don't we go ahead and film him as much as he wants and his people and see, you know, what comes out of it? Because we didn't know where it was going to go. But we didn't say to him, we're going to come in and do this. And then it wasn't like that. It's not like we represented that we were going to make a fluff piece on him at all. Right, right, right. You know, it was just, he just wanted to be in it.

[00:06:42] So we just kept filming and he just kept sending people over to be filmed. And we always asked, we always asked, are you okay being filmed? We didn't film secretly. And so, but we started turning everything into the FBI. I mean, law enforcement at first, and then law enforcement turned it over to the FBI. And then we were filming, giving more stuff to the FBI. And it was, the original filming purpose was for evidence reasons.

[00:07:12] It was only later. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing how everything lined up. So happy to hear that you're happy, especially with your initial experience with the docudrama, which I was not aware of at all. So that's really great news. Thank you. I mean, I was so terrified before this series came out because I didn't know, you know,

[00:07:34] I wasn't so terrified for myself as I was for how the other people in it would be represented because I didn't want anybody hurt. And so I spent, you know, hours in conversations with the different directors about this part of my heart, how we have to show people that are in a cult.

[00:08:04] We have to show the psychology of how it happens or they get, we get obliterated in social media. Yeah. And dismissed. Oh yeah. Dismissed, insulted, attacked. So that was my big fear. It was the other people. And the way it came out was so good.

[00:08:25] And I mean, the response has been absolutely mind blowing because I haven't seen any victim shaming of any of the characters in it. You know, the ones who, like Julia and gnomes who, who told their own stories. She was the most powerful. Gnomes and Julia were just like, ugh.

[00:08:49] I think the victim shame at this point, it's so well done that if that's your takeaway, it reveals more about you than it does about the people you're abusing. Because I think the documentary nails it. And if you walk away from that feeling that towards those people, then you're the rotten one, not them. Thank you, Nippy. And then even the people who still believe in Sam are, people are responding to them with empathy and kindness. Absolutely.

[00:09:19] And that is like, dream come true for me. Because those are the ones I worried about the most because I learned that they weren't going to, you know, that their faces would be shown. And I was like so scared. And, but I learned just this week that the documentary has actually helped them. Helped them get business, helped them reconnect with family members. That's great. And all these positive things are coming for them as well. So tell us, like, if you meet someone on an elevator and they're like, oh, what do you do? What's your passion?

[00:09:48] What's the cliff notes of this story that's important? So, and then we'll get into the details. Okay. I, that's hard. Okay. Thank you for asking me that. Because are we talking about this? The cliff notes of this story are that my husband and I are embedded in a community where there are a lot of programists. And it was an FLDS community, the community that believes in Warren Jeffs as a prophet.

[00:10:17] And there was an offshoot. And the leader of this offshoot was Sam Bateman, who repped the FLDS and started his own thing. He became an imposter representing that he was now ordained by Warren Jeffs to be the mouthpiece of God. And using that, he was able to get a few families with a lot of women and girls to follow him.

[00:10:46] And when we met him, he just had one wife and a bunch of children. And then later, he left, they divorced. He left the community. He came back with just, you know, over 20 wives. And we thought, what the hell? Jesus. So we realized something was wrong when we started filming. We actually started filming before we knew something was wrong.

[00:11:13] But what we filmed turned out to be invaluable evidence in the cases against this child sex abuse ring. That sums it up. And if I may add that you started reaching out to law enforcement and they couldn't act frustratingly enough. It's pretty wild how much they needed to act. I feel like the world watching that documentary would be like, really? You can't get a warrant on that?

[00:11:43] Like, what the hell? It was pretty crazy. I mean, I didn't understand any of that. I didn't understand. We've said it before in our podcast. And I think it's worth reiterating. We have great law enforcement when it comes to physical abuses. We have things that can go in. You identify the physical abuse. And there's an apparatus that comes in and apprehends the physical abuser. It's very hard to prove emotional abuse because you can't dust for fingerprints on emotional abuse.

[00:12:13] You have to cite a lot more forensics. You have to get a lot more to do it. And it's harder to prove, especially when the people being abused don't admit to doing it. So you have to have a real body of work to do it. And our justice systems are more designed to protect people physically than they are emotionally. And so it requires this kind of work and this body of work for people to go in and go. That's clearly they're not there on their will. They don't even know it.

[00:12:42] And that's a very hard thing to prove and cite. And that's one of the things that's so powerful about your documentary is you can kind of, even if you don't know what you're looking at, you can kind of tell by the look in some of the victims' eyes that they're not there on their own volition. The fear in their eyes. So it's educational on that part, but we still have a long way to go with law enforcement.

[00:13:05] And just because that's such a hard thing to prove and, you know, in a lot of ways, I'm going to ramble a little bit here because I think it's important. I remember there was a TV series David Fincher did called Manhunter. And it was basically talking about, it explored how the CIA or the FBI, I don't remember which one, probably the FBI, came up with a department to identify serial killers.

[00:13:27] Because up until this point in the 70s, they had only found people with motive and incentive and they were able to establish a pattern. But what someone was coming in is like serial killers don't do it based on motive pattern and all that stuff. They do it for the fun of it. And that was a very hard thing for them to introduce the FBI department because there wasn't the traditional pattern. And this person had to educate the FBI department on going, no, this is a different kind of animal we're looking at here.

[00:13:54] And it, in a way, created the department for serial killers. And that's where the term serial killers was defined. I think similarly with like the work that The Vow has done, your documentary has done, is it's creating maybe another department that can identify abuses, emotional abuse, emotional crime.

[00:14:13] And that, it's hard, but I think that's kind of what, that's what I felt like your documentary did a really good job of going, okay, there's a, this puts language to it and hopefully it can have a next iteration. Thank you. Thank you. It's, again, no credit to me, credit to Rachel Drettson, the director from Arc Media and Netflix. They were all very actively involved in every, you know, they would have different edits and different things.

[00:14:40] And, you know, they were incredibly honoring the concept of victim sensitivity. Great. And I am so appreciative of that. And. So are we, yeah. But I, I love what you just said because. If this documentary, docuseries can shed light on coercive control in action.

[00:15:07] Then it can hopefully create a lot more prevention and understanding. Totally. Even from law enforcement. And law enforcement has been reaching out for me to come and speak. Great. That was one of our questions for you, Christine. I mean, like watching the, yeah, well, the police in the way they handled the pullover where Sam, my God, by the way, that's such a, I mean, it's horrific, but also kind of funny where they're like, what's your, what are you doing? And he's like stuff. Like, really? You're doing stuff, Samuel? Like, wow. Like he is a real dolt.

[00:15:37] You know what I mean? Like, I was just blown away by that scene. But also, I don't know if what could be done differently, but I feel like the officers weren't trained in how to deal with. But they clearly knew that something was off. They knew something was off. Right. But like, I feel like you, especially in that state, you could really educate those officers in how to handle women in that situation because of the coercion they've been through and how they've been trained to lie.

[00:16:05] And like, you know, I don't know what you're going to train them in, but I know that you're going to train them and they're going to appreciate it. Well, I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to teach people about the role of the belief system in coercive control and how predators can pray about that. You know, it's like, it's so strong that you don't think you're committing a crime. You think you're obeying some higher law. Yeah.

[00:16:33] And you're not going to get through to these people as, you know, a law enforcement officer interviewing them. You're not going to get through by saying, tell me the truth, tell me the truth. Right. Right. You're not going to get through to them by using force. Yeah. Because they don't trust the government. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Let me point out something. When Sam was pulled over with the trailer and the little girl's fingers sticking out. That was crazy.

[00:17:01] He was already under federal investigation. I mean, was that clear in the documentary? I think I made that leap. If you watch it again, you'll see it. But we had already been working with Don for months. Yeah. Yeah. Because you were talking with her and they're like, keep him in prison. I wasn't totally clear on the strategy there. Like I thought, like, I wasn't sure how he got let out and like why the FBI wouldn't keep him there. But that's beyond my pay grade.

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[00:21:15] Sponsor Breaks 10. Back for more culty stories. Do you know why? I know that they wanted to execute a search warrant with him there. I'm not sure. I think he would have got out anyway because it was only trafficking. I mean, a traffic, not human trafficking, but a traffic violation. A traffic violation. Along with, you know, child endangerment.

[00:21:44] But that's, he would have the right to bail out and that's what he did. But when that happened, you know, I was able to capture that footage because we went with him to get, to deliver the check to, for him to get out. So, so I was in the back of the car, if you remember. Yeah. Filming Sam committing obstruction of justice. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:10] And it was great because he forgot I was back there filming, but we always filmed everything anyway. And they filmed us too, by the way. Mm-hmm. So there was this mutual understanding. Everybody gets to film everything, you know? And so I'm filming him. And before we even get out of the car, I send that footage to the FBI of him committing a crime right there. Which goes, fantastic.

[00:22:35] So they were able to use that for his arrest warrant before there were any underage girls that came out about the sexual abuse. So they got him arrested and in prison, I mean, in jail, and then took the girls and put them in a group home, which, I mean, think about this. If you had, suppose it was Keith.

[00:23:02] And if Keith had, you know, 10 girls that all believed he was the Dalai Lama or whatever. Not hard to imagine. Yep. Okay. Still, yeah. So, and they, suppose that they had all trained and practiced. What are you going to say if people say, is Keith doing this to you or that to you? Then you take all these victims and you put them in the same location. The group think continued. Yeah. Right. What were they thinking?

[00:23:32] They were treating them like a sibling group. Right. You know, they should have all been separated, even siblings, because they were sister wives, underage child sister wives. So that frustrated me. They were put into one single home. And when an attorney from the, I think it was from the Arizona Attorney General's Office went to interview them,

[00:23:55] I was told that some of the older siblings were saying, don't answer the questions and obstructing their ability to get any answers. So it was so frustrating. And I expressed that to, you know, to the FBI and to DCS, I think. But then they were separated into smaller groups, like just sibling groups in different places.

[00:24:19] And once they were all separated, they were able to more readily realize that they were victims and that they would be safe if they told the truth. And that's when the bulk of the evidence came. It was from the underage girls themselves, as well as from Julia. You know, and then there were two adult wives that spoke against him as well.

[00:24:46] One was Gnomes, and one was Maretta, who's shown. And so, but Julia's the big hero. I mean, she literally risked her life. She's amazing. I mean, he had a murderous mind, you know, and that was always... Yeah, for blood atonement. I have a question in terms of the jail time they served. I know one of them, who was the last one, the younger one that came out, she said... Maretta. Yeah, she said it was...

[00:25:15] She was... The jail actually helped her. Be free. Be free. But I did feel like 21 months was a little harsh for Gnomes. Oh my goodness. And I just hope that they didn't go through, like, hard prison life while they were dealing with their trauma. And I always go back and forth with people that were unwittingly perpetrators having to do that kind of jail time when they were... They were clearly abused and victims themselves.

[00:25:45] So, I don't... That's... I know. I agree with you. Gnomes says that, if you haven't watched it, Gnomes is one of Sam's wives that's in the documentary and tells her own story. And she says it was the worst thing, but also the best thing that happened to me. And I'm not going to tell her story, but she went through some trauma. And it was... I mean, imagine the culture shock.

[00:26:13] Do you know how innocent FRBS... Oh my God. ...they are? Yeah. They don't even know who Kim Kardashian is. Right. Elvis Presley, Britney Spears. They... Gnomes have never heard pop music, only hymns, you know? So, they certainly haven't seen an R-rated movie because they haven't seen any movies. Unless they were a little bit rebellious and got the internet, which, you know, the righteous ones don't get the internet.

[00:26:42] I mean, I wouldn't say righteous, but the more sheltered ones. So, these are such innocent girls. And to throw them into prison with people who have committed some serious crimes that they've never heard of, you know, they've maybe never seen people with tattoos. They don't know what drugs are. Don't know... I mean, there were so many things they didn't know.

[00:27:09] Look, innocent gnomes and innocent Maretta are felons. How are they gonna... I mean, this impacts what kind of jobs they can get. Sure. I mean, so many things. I feel like, you know, I hope they can be pardoned. They don't... They're not felons. No, absolutely not. They were gnomes who obeyed at the risk of their own lives if they didn't. I mean, I'm telling you, remember, he threats a bounded choice. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:38] So, do they need to be held accountable? Yeah, I agree with that too. But maybe there should be a different kind of prison for victims of psychologics. I totally agree. I guess that's what I'm driving at. There needs to be another sort of standard... In between going back to reality and going to female security prison. Yeah. Like, that's just... Somewhere in between. Like a group home where you get therapy. You're not interacting with regular society. You have to be away from your abuser so you don't get re-indoctrinated.

[00:28:07] And you're not also going to be, you know, scarlet lettered with the felon mark for the rest of your life. Can we propose this? Oh, wow. Let's do it. Let's do it. I love this. We could get gnomes to spearhead it. You know what I mean? I'll back it. So, because they do need to be separated. And the other thing I would do is make a rule that they couldn't communicate with other people who had the belief system. Because, yeah, I think about the other women that went to prison.

[00:28:36] A whole lot of women went to prison in the Sam Bateman case, which, you know, made me sad that the only one I wanted to go to prison was Sam. So, a number of them stayed believing in Sam. And it's because, I believe, there's this one house. It's about five blocks from me. Where the Sam believers, the Samuelites, still is their hub. They all live. Samuelites. And so, they've got this strong group thing going on, you know.

[00:29:05] And they would be on the phone, on video chat, daily, if not constantly, with the other women in prison. So, how can they wake up if they're constantly being reinforced? Correct. That dysfunctional thinking is constantly being reinforced as the way God wants you to believe. So, I mean, it bothers me now. Sam's talking to people in that house now, like, every day.

[00:29:36] It bothers me. What if there were better coercive control laws? That's my new thing now. Yeah, I think that's, yeah. If you, like, why couldn't they have arrested him? Well, they couldn't. Arizona doesn't have coercive control laws. But if they did, if you look up, like, the 12 elements of coercive control, he checked every box. So, if we would have had that kind of law, you know, maybe it would have applied with Pete, too.

[00:30:05] So, what if they could be arrested for coercive control to separate them from the victims so they have time to think? And then the other, you know, develop a sense of safety when they're ready to tell the rest of the crimes. I don't know if you know this. Did you meet Lauren Salzman when you were in Albany? She must have been very young at the time. I did. She was teaching. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:32] So, she got house, I believe she got house arrest and probation, but she's not allowed to talk to any of the ex-members. And that's, I think, been the case for everybody. Now, whether they're abiding by that, like, whether or not Nancy Salzman is talking to ex-members is unlikely, but we don't know. I know she's coaching again, if you can believe it. Oh, that's hard to believe. Yeah, no, she's coaching. I'm just right of it. Yeah. Yeah, she's pretty. She's back on the coaching train.

[00:30:59] But she, yeah, I think it was like anyone that was yellow and above. So, they could talk to maybe students, but not coaches. So, and the same goes for Lauren. But yeah. For how long? I think five years. I think five years. I'm not sure. Oh, that would have been. I don't know why they let women on probation or supervised release, whatever they call it from federal, live in the same home as people who are full-blown believers.

[00:31:29] Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, I. That's nuts. And like, and why are they, I'm assuming they're still monitoring Sam's calls to make sure he's not like committing more crimes or getting them to commit more crimes. Is that accurate? You think? They must be. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But he's pretty reckless, so I don't trust it anyway. He's in a jail right now, not a prison. He was in federal prison. But then he decided he wanted to go to trial.

[00:31:55] So he did a plea bargain on all of his crimes against children and such. So that ended up with 50 years in prison, which means he'll die in prison. But in spite of that, he wanted to go to trial on this thing that happened in Flagstaff with the trailer. Okay? So he's not, even if he wins, he's still in prison for life.

[00:32:26] So why is he doing it? Well, this enables him to see and like psychologically torture the girls who are going to be speaking against him and the young women. Am I right? Making them testify. He's representing himself. So maybe he gets to cross-examine them. But in jail, you get a lot more freedom with your communications.

[00:32:54] And so he's, I think the whole reason he's doing this is for that communication and for notoriety and for ability to see the girls that have realized what a monster he is. And turned against him. And turned against him, yeah. So that hasn't happened yet. This is what he's working on? Oh, it's next month. Next month. Wow. The trial is next month. June 23rd. Do you think he'll wear the white leather jacket as he cross-examines?

[00:33:25] I'm sorry. I doubt it, but I hope so. Yeah, that thing. That jacket. I mean... He should be in jail for that. Sometimes you just have to find some humor in the darkest. I mean, his crimes and what he did to those poor girls, like, I can't... It's just horrific. And then juxtaposed with his delusion about inviting the Queen of England to come be his wife and dressing up in this leather jacket. Like, that was some much-needed levity. You know what I mean?

[00:33:56] Yeah. He told us that the jacket cost $15,000. On a different podcast. I totally forgot. And I said $750. No, he told us it was $15,000. And he went to a business meeting. And he told the people he was doing business with, my jacket cost $15,000. And he also told them, well, I have 22 rides or however many it was. Like, I mean...

[00:34:24] So do you think they wanted to do business with him? No. Gross. Yeah. One of the things that Nippy and I remarked on throughout the whole documentary, and I know our listeners, like... And by the way, I know I texted you this, Christine, but just to tell you, and trust me, dropped... I don't think we've ever gotten such a flood of requests and text messages and emails and Patreon saying, when are you... Have you watched this yet? And you have to interview Christine Marie.

[00:34:52] I'm like, okay, I know her, first of all. And two, we will. I hadn't watched it yet. So, I mean, I knew vaguely from the previous... You're like, this dress costs $15,000. And I know Christine Marie. This costs... This is a $15,000 dress. No. But when we watched it, we were like, holy shit, Christine, like the patience and the... Yeah. Like, let's just take a moment to applaud your emotional fortitude, but through something that just must have been so horrific.

[00:35:20] Like, your double life, like, I can't even imagine how painful that would be. How are you doing now? Our Patreon audience want to know, like, what's your recovery? Like, are you okay? Where's your mental health now? Well, I'm great. I have emotional support animals, as you can see. And a rooster that I can hear, which I love. We have a donkey, a draft horse, a miniature cow, chicken, sheep, and my animals are just really important to me in front. Of course.

[00:35:47] And I have my husband and my daughter, Lola. By the way, Lola Blanc is a pop alternate, kind of an indie pop artist. And she did the song, Trust Me, the theme song. So, everybody go listen to Lola Blanc. And I was just on their podcast. Did she tell you? Yes, of course. And she loved you. Oh, I loved her. Because I tried to get in front of her. It's been too long. So, we're kind of a mother-daughter cult fighting team, I guess. Yeah, that's amazing.

[00:36:17] Anyway, so, I'm doing okay. I mean, it's, I'll tell you, it's really healing. I mean, I still have certain things I'm sensitive about. But there was a moment when everything in the story took a very dark turn. And that was the moment in the car when Sam starts confessing his ritualistic sexual abuse. And three of his victims were in the car with me. There were four of us sitting in the backseat.

[00:36:47] And the girl sitting right next to me was a child at 13. And when they were, the way they were responding while he was basically bragging about this stuff, to see that they were struggling with trauma. I mean, that was really hard for me to know how to respond. And, but the girl sitting next to me was quietly weeping.

[00:37:17] And so, you know, I recorded that. I was able to record that. And that was the first big piece of evidence that I thought would really spur this whole thing. And then it still took forever after that. But that girl is really important to me. And I'm close with her. And she said to me, I want this story to come out. This story has to come out. This story has to be told.

[00:37:46] And she is very happy with the results. You know, with all the good that it's doing. Even teenagers are commenting and reaching out. So, you know, my inbox is just pretty flooded with positive responses and people reaching out for help. So that was the thing I wanted to remember to say. Oh, yes.

[00:38:16] The happy about the girl in the car. Yes, that's her. Yeah, that's it. Because it just means everything to me that one of the underage victims who was also in the trailer that Sam put in such a dangerous incident. I'm like, boy, that girl has survived a lot. And she is just doing remarkable.

[00:38:43] I think she's, you know, at some point she's going to change the world. And her resilience is magnificent. When I saw the series for the first time, Rachel, the director, sat with us and we watched it together with gnomes. It was really hard because every one of those scenes has a lot more to it than is shown. And it was really toned down, believe it or not. As dark as it was toned down.

[00:39:10] And so we were, you know, our own emotions were feeling the weight of so much more than we saw. So it took me a while to process it. And like the next morning, I ate in my bed and cried. Not because I wasn't happy with it. I was so happy with it. But just because of the feelings of it all.

[00:39:39] And I just had to do that. And then, of course, we know other things that we filmed. And there were other people that filmed too, by the way. Some of the footage is not ours. But I know certain things that, certain scenes that weren't in there. So I might have done things different. But I thought that maybe in the beginning.

[00:40:06] But based on the fact that it skyrocketed to be the number one most watched show on Netflix in the whole world. For like two or three weeks. I just have to stand down and say, it couldn't have been done better. I think people say it was a master class.

[00:40:27] So I have no thing that I can even think of to suggest how it should have been different. They were the experts. And they came through. There are three directors, Rachel and also Jamila Efron and Elise Coker, who directed the last episode. Who's been a friend of mine for years and years because she's Lola's friend. Like I've known her since she was 17.

[00:40:54] And she was able to get in the group and film too. Because we vouched her in. So they let her and her sister do some filming. So there was a lot of people that had the same sensitivity mindset that were so trustworthy.

[00:41:14] And I hope that people understand that this story was really giving Julia and Noam's voice to tell their story their way. It was about them. And me and Tolga. But it was mainly, in my opinion, them telling their story.

[00:41:38] Which we explained to them and to some other people that your story is getting told. Whether you like it or not, people everywhere are telling this story. The only way to get it right is for you to speak for yourself. That's what I believe, after my experience. Yeah. So we talked about the pros and the cons. You know. And I just expected there to be so much more hatred. And there's none.

[00:42:09] I mean, how is that even possible? Is the world becoming kinder? It's like, oh my goodness. I think the world is slowly getting more educated on this stuff. Slowly. I think it's happening. And every person that speaks out adds to it. I hope one day, if Noam wants to do more, we'd love to chat with her and hear her story. Because I know she's got way more background. And like, we didn't even get into how all of the girls even got into Sam's group. And young women. But also girls. And like, how a lot of them already had their fathers taken away. And they didn't have father figures.

[00:42:39] And like, just the complexity of that. And like, there's so much more to the story. Please tell Noam's. We'd love to chat with her. Also, I'm going to send a copy of a book for her. For you to give to her. Okay. So I looked at the book. It'll tell me. And I was like, oh my goodness. I need like a hundred of these. Because I could give them as many as you want. I could give them to so many people. And I think we could use it in a support group. It's incredible.

[00:43:09] You know, I'm going to put it on my list of books recommended. I just am so excited about how you approached it all. And I think your book is a gift. This episode would not be possible without the support of our sponsors. Let's hear what they have to offer.

[00:43:45] Thank you, sponsors. We couldn't do it without you. Now, let's get back to the show. That's what we want it to be. Yeah. I'm going to cry. I told you I was going to cry. I need to cry. But listen, we got feedback, you know, along the line of like, before we published to say like, oh, this part about how to navigate the media and how to be a whistleblower and how to write a cult memoir that's very niche. Like put that online. Put that separately.

[00:44:13] I'm like, I want to give this as a gift. I want to send this to you to give it to the girls and the women so that they can have everything they need in one place. It's so overwhelming. Right. You know, this is a survivor to like, never mind, read a book, find a book, get through a book. Yeah. You know, adjust the book. Like I just wanted it in one place in very digestible, not academic, no footnotes. Just this is like a guidebook.

[00:44:40] And I wanted to ask you, like, so you wrote your own cult memoir. Now you wrote this guidebook. And you have people on your podcast all the time. Some people have an issue and say, oh, look at all these people making money off other people's stories.

[00:44:59] But being able to tell my story in a way that is dignified has been so incredibly healing for me, especially to make up for the thing that happened in the past. And what are your feelings about the healing power of telling your story? And you would be the expert on this. Yeah. Just to get one quick caveat. We self-publish this one.

[00:45:25] So we, in terms of being monetized and people make money off of all this, like we paid out of pocket to get this out. So that's one thing I will just say for any haters out there. But I don't even respond to haters. My response to your question is once I was able, impulsively and instinctively, my quest or my impulse was to figure out and put language to what happened to me. And actually Noam said that in the documentary. And I thought it was interesting. That was her impulse as well.

[00:45:55] I think once you're able to do that, this is a bold statement. I think you're healed in a lot of ways. Or healing. Or on your way. Like there's still moments where I have, but like I don't feel trauma around this at all. I think I was targeted differently, so I didn't really feel that much trauma. So my situation is definitely, it's all case by case. But once I did that, I didn't really feel like I needed therapy. Like I felt like therapy was kind of rehashing it, going back to the scene of the crime, looking at the photographs of the forensics.

[00:46:24] I didn't feel like I needed to do that. I feel like once I got the lessons and the wisdom from it, it was in my rearview mirror and has been ever since. And so since then, just taking my story, putting language to it and sharing the wisdom and having content for others to go in there and kind of get the same experience, I think is my best gift to whoever is interested in our story.

[00:46:46] That is so great because if you, the way I see it is once I had the courage to tell my story was behind me. So, I mean, like even in narrative psychology, we want to help people tell their stories. I mean, we have to integrate what happened to us in our life story. If we say, no, I don't need to know. I am scared of this. I'm ashamed of this.

[00:47:16] I'm stigmatized by this. I can't do this. This is how I was for like 10 years after. But when I found the power to tell my own story and it was treated with dignity, it was so incredibly healing. And I know that gnomes, I mean, when you have a, when you tell your story and the public loves you for it, it is the most healing thing that could ever happen.

[00:47:41] In short, what I think you've done is if you bring clarity to your own story, you can help bring clarity to other people. I have a new set of problems with this new clarity. I see it everywhere. And I'm somewhat reactive to people who, my impulse is not to weaponize my clarity when I see people kind of like being a certain way that I'm coercive or whatever. So I have to, but I'm glad I have a new set of problems. I guess if you look at it that way. I think you guys have given a path for so many people. I hope so.

[00:48:10] With your podcast too. Because when people go through like a public shaming experience, which is so, so devastating, they don't know how to recover from that. And it's very similar to recovering from, you know, to wake up and deconstruct from a cult that formed your entire worldview. Because everything that you thought is now falling apart around you.

[00:48:35] And one of the things that I tell them is out of this destruction that has come into your life, it's very healing to find something to create that's beautiful. What can you create from the damage?

[00:48:54] And if what you create is a podcast or a book or telling your story, and then your story becomes the healing guidebook for someone else. Then we've given birth to something beautiful as a result of something so horrible. Christine, you're going to love chapter 22. It's called Hope After the Hurt, Survivors to Thrivers.

[00:49:22] And we give examples of different people who've done different things, like Eric Skorosinski, who has a podcast. And Dan Ben-Scotter, who's a therapist. And Don Crummins, who's like a lobbyist. And Shelley Snow-Pardia, who writes fiction. And then the second edition will add you and perhaps Gnome's whatever she does, whether it's a pop star or whatever she becomes. We're very excited. We're cheering her on. But I love that you said that because, personally, I feel like I wrote my memoir a little too soon.

[00:49:52] I'd just gotten out. And I'm glad it's there because it's sort of like this is how I got in, this is how I got out, and everything in between. But we've learned so much more since the podcast and meeting people like you and covering these different stories. So that's what this book is. It's a resource, which I'd wanted to do then. And I wanted to say, and that I realized later was called Love Bombing. But I was encouraged not to. And I'm glad because it's like a really pure memoir where this is a handbook resource. And they're different things. That's very interesting.

[00:50:19] But I do think that your memoir has done so much to help the world. Oh, good. Thank you. You know, I'm glad you didn't wait. People needed to know. I mean, yeah, maybe you could have made it better. But you know what? You've got your story out there. I mean, for 25 years, people have been telling me to write a memoir. And I'm like, eh, more important things to do. But I did now because it was just time.

[00:50:49] You know, it was, I mean, the whole backstory of how even things before Keith and all that stuff. I mean, I have a whole huge backstory that's pretty, which sheds a lot of light on how our brains do what they do. And I wish I wouldn't have waited. I wish I, you know, I think the sooner you tell your story, I mean, your story can evolve as you have realizations. Yeah, yeah.

[00:51:15] You know, as you get more language and, you know, and Steve Hassan's book Combating Cult Mind Control, which was life-saving for me in my recovery. And his first edition, he didn't even have the bite model that came in the second edition. And I didn't even realize that because I knew so much about the bite model, which means it's a way of telling if some, if it's a cult, if some, if they control your behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions.

[00:51:42] So, you know, and I have a modified version of that. I call it the TRIBE, which stands for Thoughts, Relationships, Information, Behavior, and Emotions. And then to have some kind of tribe. I believe that. So, but we evolve. And our stories change, not because we didn't tell the truth the first time, but we had more language later. Yes. More realization. And that's okay.

[00:52:12] Absolutely. Things evolve. It's so true. Yeah. Did anybody respond that they had any questions for me? Yes. There were so many questions. We've actually been weaving them through the whole time. I'm just going to go back to our Patreon page and see. I mean, most people want to know. And the word badass was used four times in our comments here. Oh, you guys. Thank you so much. You're such a badass. No, you really are. I mean, like, hands down. I don't know how.

[00:52:40] Like, we had to be double agents for like two weeks. You were a double agent for like years. And that's so stressful. And what you did is unbelievably, like, the fortitude. Like, my hat's off to you. Everybody, the main thing that people want to know that we haven't asked is like, what are you doing now? How are you? What's next for you and Tolga? Well, doing great. Can I say something really sincere? Yes. I just love the whole world. You are a lover. You are a lover.

[00:53:11] I mean, I remember when I went through that terrible experience and I felt like the most slut-shamed mother on the planet. Right. Well, the public response. I mean, every, like, I read every single DM and I try to respond. I read every email. And it is so healing. I just feel so loved that it took that horrible experience from before and just erased it.

[00:53:41] And I'm sitting here in a state of disbelief because I'm just so grateful. I'm just beside myself with the response. And, you know, I'm just getting choked up over it that people are so appreciative. They're so appreciative. It's so great.

[00:54:03] And, you know, people have written that they decided to report their abuser as a result of the documentary or that they realize that they need to save their daughter from somebody coercive or that they, you know, somebody is, I mean, a few people have said that they want to change the purpose of their career to include more psychology. I'm like, wow.

[00:54:32] I just feel just overwhelmed with gratitude. I'm like, how did this even happen? Can I, can I offer unsolicited advice? Yeah. The things, the messages that really move you, take a screenshot of them and make a little folder, like an album on your phone, however you do that.

[00:54:58] And then on the, if you have a bad day, if you have a hard day or if some stupid hater comes out and says something shamey, then you have that album to go to. And I hope that fuels you as you continue. Thank you. I have started that. Okay. It's on my wall. It's on my wall. Yeah. She's like, I have a keynote. It's my wallpaper. I love that. No, I mean, but I think that is so great because, I mean, do you guys get haters?

[00:55:27] Oh yeah. I mean, not as much anymore. I'd say the most hating came before the vow and then during the vow, but most, I mean, every now and then somebody will be like, you should be in prison too. It's mostly at me. Sometimes it's a nippy, but it's also like. It's mostly directed at me. Or haters, like when we expose certain groups, like we exposed ISTA or like, you know, Teal Swan or people that have a lot of flying monkeys will come out and try to character assassinate us or, you know, say. You want to hear my breakdown? First of all, I don't really read it. Number two.

[00:55:57] But if you do read it. I ignore the extremes, meaning, oh, you people are shitty, blah, blah, blah. I just, I chalked, that doesn't really do much to me. And I ignore the, you guys are heroes. You guys are amazing too. Because those are two extremes. I don't really buy those. We don't want to be put on pedestals either. However, I was joking with my dad about this. I was like, if you take away the extremes and you look at the ones in the middle, the universe is pretty fair. Like the criticisms are like, if you really have some inner honesty, I go, yeah, I can see how I do that.

[00:56:26] And if someone says something a little bit positive about you and it's like, yeah, I can own that too because that feels like me. The extremes never feel like me. I remember during the vow, I was looking at something and they were just, someone was lighting up me, Sarah, and a bunch of other people. I was like, that's not even me. That's an avatar that's online. Exactly. No relationship with. And similarly with like, oh my God, they're heroes. I don't feel like that either. That doesn't feel like me at all.

[00:56:53] But the ones that did feel about, and one of them was really constructive about, you know, about four years ago. I was like, you know what? I got wisdom out of that, even though I don't think that's what they were trying to give me. You know? Someone's punching down on you and what you did. Like they're delusional. But successful people don't punch down. Like, you know, and people also know this, people who have been through trauma and understand trauma never punch down. They just don't. They just don't do that. So.

[00:57:21] You know, by engaging in online cruelty, you're making a person, the person you're attacking more vulnerable to wanting to belong to some group where they're appreciated. I feel like bullying and online cruelty contributes to vulnerabilities that can make somebody maybe be open to an idealistic group, which could be a cult. There's no children. Oh, for sure.

[00:57:49] There is nothing productive. That comes from publicly attacking people, if you want. I mean, that's my whole next thing. You want to know what I'm going to do next? I really want. I really want to be an advocate against online cruelty and public shaming. And I want to promote empathy and kindness. And I'm going to continue doing my charity work, which I love. And continue writing.

[00:58:16] I have some opportunities to get back involved in research, which excites me. But, you know, I really hope to help people understand that when you are attacking somebody, we're not going to change their mind by attacking them. It's like the FLDS. So many documentaries, they leave you thinking that every FLDS person was a criminal.

[00:58:42] And so I used to, you know, attack polygamists because of my own experience. I used to write all this stuff against it. Well, when I quit doing that and just started meeting people where they were at, that is how I became a safer person or someone in need to talk to. So I don't think that attacking people, it just means that you need attention

[00:59:11] and you want to be seen as a hero that's taking down a bad guy or something. But it's not productive. If it's productive, you can talk to them privately. And studies also show that people who do this are less intelligent. And they're more likely to have personality characteristics and the dark triad, which is psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism.

[00:59:39] So in other words, you're more likely to be a psychopath if you feel great by publicly just destroying someone, you know. What kind of energy, what kind of person gets energized by seeing someone get destroyed. So that's my next thing. I want to promote kindness. I love that.

[01:00:04] I have an online kindness spread people can sign if you want to put that in the links. Yes. I'd love to. Send me, please email me any links you want included. We didn't talk about Voices for Dignity. Is that something you're still doing? Yeah. Voicesfordignity.org. So we help people, populations who've been marginalized, stigmatized, humiliated. That includes survivors of trafficking, survivors of religious trauma, survivors of public shaming.

[01:00:33] And it's a small organization, but we've helped so many people for how small we are. And I would love you guys to check it out. So our website needs work, but we're trying to get a new, get some more volunteers. So just bear with us. And we'll put that on our resource page also. Okay. Yeah.

[01:00:56] And if anybody ever comes here to this, you know, community and it's in the Southern Utah area. The Creek? Definitely reach out. Yeah. The Creek. We'll give you a little tour of our little mini farm and tour of the town. Meet Esther Norma. Things like that. That'd be great. Are you in touch with Elisa Wall? Yeah, I know Elisa Wall. Yeah. She was a guest years ago. Yeah.

[01:01:24] Well, let's just email me your address and I'll put a book for you and Gnomes and Julia and then a couple other books for whoever else needs it. I'll put a copy of Scarred in there too. You can pass it around if anybody wants to read that. Nippy calls it Scared, but it's Scarred. I was a little scared at the time. Christina, we've so enjoyed this and just- Congrats on everything. Yeah.

[01:01:48] So proud to know you and to watch this documentary and all of its, how everything came together. I'm so happy to know that people are getting out and they're healing and that you're doing okay. And we just sent you and Tolga and all of the women and girls a big hug from us. Oh, that's wonderful. Will you guys come visit me? We will. Come visit us. Us. Me and Tolga. As long as I get to meet the rooster and the mini cow and then I'll be there. All right.

[01:02:17] Thank you, boys. How far away is the drive? Like three days or something? Oh, I don't know. We should do a road trip. We'll probably fly. But we should come. Thank you, my dear. Thank you. Thank you. I wanted to be on your podcast for so long, but I couldn't. I know. Now we know why. Yeah. This one's a homer. Thank you. It was worth the wait. Oh, wait. I was going to read the journal entry. Oh, yeah. Shit. Okay. Damn it. Oh, thank you for saying that.

[01:02:47] Okay. So this is as promised. Thank you for saying to the end, everybody. Here is the journal entry with Christine Marie about Keith Raniere. And go. Okay. It was December 1998. I'm getting involved with the National Health Network. In fact, right now I'm on a train alone to Albany. I'm hired to do some writing for them. I also want to market for them because they are taking on the Applebrook product line. Or so I was misled.

[01:03:17] Keith Raniere is the founder. He is unique, but he scares me. He's supposedly one of the smartest men in the world, but he's really into energy and sex. And he's trying to draw me into his way of thinking. That is so wild. So good that you were able to feel the con. And then the other thing I was going to read, if you don't mind, is the text that you sent to him.

[01:03:46] It doesn't say when. It says, Keith, I have a great idea for you. You know there are certain flagship identifiers of a cult. If NXIVM has some of those, you certainly can change that. Why don't you do something that will be totally unorthodox and written about and praised worldwide? Why don't you have a cult expert or two go through your program specifically to consult you on what to change to not have the cult traits? De-cult yourself. No group has ever done that in the history of the world. What a great idea. He did not follow your advice.

[01:04:15] This was a Facebook message I can see. Yeah, I think it was like in 2007 or something. Well, you tried. You did your best. You did your part. And we thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Christine. We'll see you hopefully in person in the Crick. The Crick. Okay. Sounds good. Bye-bye.

[01:04:57] I hope everybody enjoyed that. We sure did. And really thinking about... Full circle. Full circle. All those cliches. Full circle moments in this podcast. And we'd love to have Gnomes on. I hope that she's listening and that she enjoys the books that we sent. Because there's a whole other world of stuff that we didn't even cover about how these women got into the situation all with Bateman. And I think that's important to cover. And thank you, Christine. We think that you're a total badass.

[01:05:24] And really think that your story is illuminating and important. And maybe she'll come back and tell us what it's like to work with law enforcement, especially in that region. Holy shit. What did you think of the episode? Comment on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? Shoot us a DM. And see you next time. Subscribe and like. Just what? Subscribe and like. Subscribe and like. All right. Like, link, subscribe. Bye. Bye.

[01:06:13] If so, please do show us some love. Drop a rating or leave a review. Hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Even better, send this episode to someone who needs it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit susceptible. Or maybe they just love a good story. Spread the word. Spread the love. Thanks for listening. And see you next time. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames.

[01:06:40] In collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple Tardy. Our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsenbor. Writing by Sandra Nomoto. And social media marketing by Eric Swarzynski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.