ANTI-MLM Starter Kit: A Remix with Roberta Blevins, Emily Lynn Paulson & Douglas Brooks, ESQ

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:31] A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:00:43] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:47] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:00:53] You might even already be an occult.

[00:00:55] You better keep listening to Find Out.

[00:00:57] Welcome to Season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:00] See you down to the depths of the ocean.

[00:01:05] We love to win my love.

[00:01:09] For like all I can leave but no one knows.

[00:01:17] Hey everyone, it's another remix by Request.

[00:01:21] You guys like these? This one is a sort of, not sort of, it is an anti-MLM 101 starter kit with some of our favorite MLM busters.

[00:01:30] We're going to start with Roberta Blubbins, who you may know as a fan-fade from the Amazon Prime series Lula Rich.

[00:01:36] Or from her rock and good time podcast Life After MLM, where she explores the dangers of multi-level marketing through the eyes of the victims and survivors.

[00:01:45] She's got some serious street cred in the anti-MLM domain for sure.

[00:01:50] As a trainer with Lula Roe, Roberta had a team of 75 women under her and made over $65,000 in bonuses alone.

[00:01:56] When she came to the conclusion that it was a rigged, losing game, she didn't just leave the business.

[00:02:01] She testified in the Washington state versus Lula Roe pyramid scheme lawsuit as a witness for the state.

[00:02:07] It's all a really interesting story. Lula Rich is worth a watch in case you haven't seen it.

[00:02:12] So here's a segment from our episode with her. You can hear the whole thing and a full episode format from Season 2 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:17] Just people are show notes for that link.

[00:02:19] But for now keep listening because right after her we'll have an author of Hey Hunn, Emily Lynn Paulson,

[00:02:24] as well as the anti-MLM expert Doug Brooks.

[00:02:27] So just in case you're thinking about selling something for an MLM, don't give them your credit card info

[00:02:32] until you've listened to this remix of A Little Bit Culty in the key of Big Bad MLMs.

[00:02:37] Here's Roberta Buffins.

[00:02:38] My first question is that I make leggings for men.

[00:02:45] You know what? Not specifically, but there are some Lula Bros that love to wear their tight pants.

[00:03:00] And there are some YouTube videos of them dancing to that Jimmy Fallon song in Lula Roe leggings.

[00:03:06] And it is so Lula Crunch.

[00:03:09] This is what I've been calling it.

[00:03:11] Oh, there's a little bit of Lula language. Lula Bros. Crunch.

[00:03:15] Oh yeah. I want to know all the language and just so you know.

[00:03:18] You have to have that culty language. Of course this episode is going to come after an episode that's all about cult language

[00:03:23] and how languages use to recruit, to retain, to gas light, to manipulate all that stuff.

[00:03:30] So this is for our audience. This is going to be so rich in music.

[00:03:35] And that gets of goodness. So yeah, we have a lot of questions for you.

[00:03:40] And just so you know, our general format for people who get out of anything,

[00:03:45] MLM cults, Minerillion are mine. It's the same thing at this point is how did you get in?

[00:03:51] What do you think you were getting into? How did you get out? What will key up and how are you appealing?

[00:03:55] So that's the overall structure. Yeah.

[00:03:57] And in that we're wanting to know and for our audience show, you know, what happened to you so that they can hear about it and go,

[00:04:06] oh, that's not right. And that's abusive. And that's I mean people write to us and say,

[00:04:11] Lula Rich and what was exposed is definitely a little bit culty but why?

[00:04:15] Like what specifically about it? What was the processes that were used that make it not healthy

[00:04:21] and so that people can see that? That's our goal. Yeah.

[00:04:24] Yeah. Yeah. In short, it's turning your story into content and wisdom. So.

[00:04:29] Absolutely. Is that make sense? I don't know where you are in the process.

[00:04:32] That's one of the things Sarah and I were we're discussing really let's figure out where she is in the process

[00:04:37] of understanding what she's looking at. Yeah. No, I'm so in it. I'm there. You know,

[00:04:42] that's the education. Oh yeah. Right on my podcast. I have an MLM Survivors podcast.

[00:04:47] And very similar to this work, how did you get in? What happened? What opened your eyes?

[00:04:52] What are you doing now? Kind of thing. It's the same format but it's just MLM and we talk about all different kinds of MLMs

[00:04:57] and all different kinds of things. And we break it down. You know, people will tell me things.

[00:05:01] I'm saying, that's a cult tactic. And here it is in the bite model.

[00:05:05] And this is what it is. And this is what it's used for. And this is why they're doing it.

[00:05:09] And sometimes we have these episodes where the guests are like, oh my God.

[00:05:13] I'm like, I know, right? It's crazy. And they're just like, I never thought about it like that.

[00:05:17] And they said, I know, right? And I like to say once you see it, you just,

[00:05:22] you can't unsee it anymore. It's like the emperor with his clothes, right?

[00:05:26] You finally look up and you're like, wait a second, he's naked.

[00:05:29] You know what's ironic about that is that Keith used to tell that story all the time.

[00:05:32] And there was even a company that he created with the acronym of the emperor had new clothes.

[00:05:38] Did you know about that, Nippy?

[00:05:40] A little bit about it. I think it was a hypothesis, right? It wasn't really.

[00:05:43] Yeah, he just loved to do what he was talking about as also as your paths.

[00:05:47] Apparently, learning centers before we get into all that can and we're hoping that our listeners will have watched

[00:05:54] Lulie Rich by the time they hear this.

[00:05:57] But for those who don't know your story and I'm sure you're sick of talking about it as a my.

[00:06:01] But can you give us like the cliff notes of basically when you signed up for this and tell us a little bit about yourself

[00:06:07] and what you thought you were signing up for? What did you think you were getting into?

[00:06:11] Yeah, so I was introduced to Lularo by a mom friend in a Facebook group that I was in.

[00:06:16] She wasn't even selling them. She just was wearing them and she shared a picture that was cute.

[00:06:21] And I said, oh those are kind of cute when I've seen those leggings before.

[00:06:24] And being a stayed home mom at the time with a young daughter, I was looking for comfortable things that were cute.

[00:06:29] You know? So she's like, oh it's this company.

[00:06:33] So I did my research. I looked into it. I couldn't find anything.

[00:06:37] I don't know if they were suppressing the information at that point or nothing was bad enough that people were actually reporting it at that point.

[00:06:44] But I remember googling like is Lularo a scam? Is Lularo a pyramid scheme?

[00:06:49] And I couldn't find anything and I was like, okay. And the way that they had it, it seemed a little different than the way that other MLMs were structured.

[00:06:57] And it seemed just different enough that maybe it wasn't as bad as all the other ones.

[00:07:02] So it's my worst judgment.

[00:07:05] So you were at the time about MLMs and that some of them were scamming or whatever.

[00:07:10] Absolutely, but I didn't realize that it was the business structure itself.

[00:07:14] I thought that it was just, oh I just shouldn't be selling weightless pills.

[00:07:19] I should be selling colorful buttery crotch pants instead.

[00:07:22] Like that's more my vibe. It's the same. It doesn't matter what care they're dangling or what bubble is being displayed.

[00:07:32] They're all the same. But at the time, I didn't know that. At the time, I thought I was going to be selling leggings in my living room.

[00:07:39] I joined a couple Facebook groups just to see how everything was going. They were selling so fast.

[00:07:45] I'd go in there, I'd be 10 minutes late and half of it would be sold out already. And I'm like, what is happening? This is like beating babies again.

[00:07:51] Like you just couldn't get them. And I remember like, I just wanted black leggings.

[00:07:56] I think it took me three weeks to find somebody that had a pair of black leggings to buy.

[00:08:00] Were they really that amazing? Were they really that comfortable?

[00:08:03] I mean, nothing more comfortable than you can find the soft fuzzy ones you get out Walmart for like 388.

[00:08:11] I mean, they're not any different. They're very, very similar.

[00:08:14] They created a buzz about it. It's kind of like, you see it in like Pokemon cards or baseball cards,

[00:08:20] just stuff like that. They created the scarcity and there's a dopamine.

[00:08:24] I was supposed to say that. You get from that.

[00:08:26] A dopamine addiction.

[00:08:28] Ooh. So women were buying multiple leggings.

[00:08:32] He was insane. I was just watching fly off the shelves and I'm just like, I got to get on this.

[00:08:38] Like this just seems so easy.

[00:08:40] This is such a great thing for me to be doing when my daughter's asleep or having a nap or whatever.

[00:08:44] I can just sell leggings. Like how hard is it to take pictures post on Facebook?

[00:08:48] I wasn't even thinking about the dresses and the skirts and I just thought leggings so easy.

[00:08:52] But when I finally joined Lularon on board, they didn't even have leggings. They were sold out.

[00:08:56] That should have been another red flag. They really should have. I should have been like, what?

[00:09:00] When did you first get in on board as it's called for our listeners?

[00:09:04] It's akin to signing up or being enrolled or whatever.

[00:09:08] Accepted into the family of Lulubelle.

[00:09:10] You were on boarded and then there's a moment in the dark.

[00:09:14] I'm in a fucking cult.

[00:09:16] How long was it between your on board and your oh my god, I'm in a fucking cult moment?

[00:09:22] The grooming started in October of 2015.

[00:09:26] I signed the papers in February of 2016.

[00:09:30] I had to wait six weeks to join because they're the queue.

[00:09:34] There were so many people wanting to join.

[00:09:36] So many people that need to get on this.

[00:09:38] You have to wait six weeks.

[00:09:40] But while you're doing this, join this other group called the queue.

[00:09:44] It was called the queue.

[00:09:46] You'd be in the queue and you'd join these queue groups.

[00:09:48] You'd be called cubies.

[00:09:50] And all these little cubies, again with the cult language.

[00:09:52] All these little cubies will be talking to each other.

[00:09:54] What did you get? Oh, I got this printer.

[00:09:56] Oh, what printer is that?

[00:09:58] We literally sold Amazon out of thermal printers.

[00:10:02] You could not find a thermal printer.

[00:10:04] What's a thermal printer?

[00:10:06] It's a printer that uses heats on like a label.

[00:10:08] So instead of using ink, it would just use heat.

[00:10:10] So you just have to buy these heat labels.

[00:10:12] Like you would get in a wrist piece.

[00:10:14] I've seen those.

[00:10:16] For our packages.

[00:10:18] For when you're shipping packages out, right?

[00:10:20] So you need this thermal printer.

[00:10:22] Oh, okay. So we're buying all these.

[00:10:24] You need these racks. These are the best racks.

[00:10:26] We're selling out Amazon on racks, on hangers, on thermal printers.

[00:10:30] To get all of this stuff to open up our own boutiques.

[00:10:32] This is before you're even onboarded.

[00:10:34] Let me ask you something.

[00:10:36] We're even onboarded.

[00:10:38] I know what that means.

[00:10:40] And we're trying to be really careful with our language

[00:10:42] just so you know after our language episode with Amanda Montel,

[00:10:44] who wrote, called it which I highly recommend.

[00:10:46] And she does a whole thing on MLMs.

[00:10:48] And the structures that are in place that keep them so toxic,

[00:10:52] which I sell a little side note.

[00:10:54] A little plug for her bug.

[00:10:56] Yes. Yes.

[00:10:58] Yeah, it's really, really good.

[00:11:00] So we're trying to be careful with the words like grooming and brainwashing

[00:11:02] and cult even like they're just very hyperbolic words.

[00:11:04] Right.

[00:11:06] And they use a lot of nuance.

[00:11:08] So we're trying when you say grooming, what do you mean by that?

[00:11:10] What specifically were they doing to prepare you

[00:11:12] to become a normalist?

[00:11:14] And I'm just going to put this in.

[00:11:16] Normalize the abuses that we're about to take place.

[00:11:18] Okay, that's actually perfect.

[00:11:20] Normalizing the abuse, right?

[00:11:22] We already start in a deficit, right?

[00:11:24] We're starting in a deficit.

[00:11:26] We're out of leggings. Sorry.

[00:11:28] You're we're out of things.

[00:11:30] You're going to have to wait six weeks.

[00:11:32] Just be patient with us.

[00:11:34] We love you.

[00:11:36] We're a baby company.

[00:11:38] We're working out the kinks.

[00:11:40] So here's a group to join with a bunch of other people.

[00:11:44] So you normalize the fact that they're scarcity.

[00:11:46] It's so busy.

[00:11:48] It's so much like they're going to run out.

[00:11:50] They just, they're so popular.

[00:11:52] Everybody loves them so much.

[00:11:54] They just can't keep up with the demand.

[00:11:56] It's so incredible.

[00:11:58] So you're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[00:12:00] So that was some sort of like preparing us for scarcity.

[00:12:04] Always with the assume innocence.

[00:12:06] That was something that was said constantly assume innocence.

[00:12:08] Because we would say clearly you're doing this intentionally.

[00:12:10] Assume innocence.

[00:12:12] It is not like that at all.

[00:12:14] So you weren't allowed to call out something negative.

[00:12:16] Never.

[00:12:18] You had to assume that they had good intentions.

[00:12:20] They would never have bad intentions.

[00:12:22] Never.

[00:12:23] Well, also assume innocence would be falling to the category of a thought stopping cliche.

[00:12:26] Yes, absolutely.

[00:12:28] So we're going to plug Amanda Montell's book because she did such a good job on language.

[00:12:32] A thought stopping cliche is what you see in a lot of these groups

[00:12:36] where you'll have a question about something.

[00:12:38] And it'll be something, well, in your case probably it is what it is what it is.

[00:12:42] It is what it is.

[00:12:44] It is what it is or assume innocence assume innocence.

[00:12:46] And so that interrupts your questioning nature, your skepticism and stifles it assume innocence.

[00:12:54] Okay, maybe it's me.

[00:12:56] Maybe it's whatever.

[00:12:58] I saw it a lot.

[00:13:00] There's so many things as similarities I saw but we'll get to that in a second.

[00:13:04] So you get on boarded.

[00:13:06] You've been set up to feel, sounds like you've been loved bond.

[00:13:10] You feel excited to be part of a community.

[00:13:12] You're feeling really enthusiastic about what your income potential

[00:13:16] and changing your current situation so they're dangling possibilities of endless dreams

[00:13:21] and everything coming to fruition in this company.

[00:13:24] And it's the only way to get there.

[00:13:26] Oh yeah, 100%.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:30] Based on the fact that DN sold $20,000 worth of skirts out of the turnover car,

[00:13:33] which is a lot of skirts to hand make, but that's the math.

[00:13:37] Yeah.

[00:13:39] They were definitely not handmade.

[00:13:41] I don't know how many were.

[00:13:43] They did make a few.

[00:13:45] They used to sit around the table and actually DN's sister, Diane was involved.

[00:13:49] And then edged out and Mark was brought in.

[00:13:53] And then so there's some weird stuff there too.

[00:13:57] At this point are you encouraged on board as well?

[00:13:59] Or are you can't on board until you've been on board?

[00:14:01] I can 100% take people underneath me if I'd like.

[00:14:05] In fact, I had one my really good friend.

[00:14:07] She was asking me what is all this stuff you're talking about?

[00:14:09] I said I think I'm going to join.

[00:14:11] It looks really good and she started doing research and she came to me.

[00:14:14] And she's like I think I want to join too.

[00:14:16] I said I literally joined two days ago.

[00:14:17] She's like can I join underneath you?

[00:14:19] I said yeah here's my link.

[00:14:20] I had no idea.

[00:14:21] I had no idea what I was doing.

[00:14:22] And one of my very good friends joined right underneath me.

[00:14:26] Also not knowing anything.

[00:14:28] We rode the queue wave together.

[00:14:30] And so because I had someone underneath me,

[00:14:32] as soon as she onboarded like four or five days after I did,

[00:14:36] I got a bonus almost instantly.

[00:14:38] Because I had that person underneath me

[00:14:40] and I'm not the only person that was encouraged to recruit while in the queue.

[00:14:44] And I don't know if that's intentional.

[00:14:46] Like look you onboard it and you immediately got a bonus.

[00:14:48] See it works.

[00:14:49] It's amazing.

[00:14:50] Or what?

[00:14:51] Because it seems silly.

[00:14:52] If it's meant to be a real business

[00:14:54] and it's meant to be the whole sailor like they claim,

[00:14:57] why the emphasis of getting so many people on

[00:15:01] that don't know what they're doing without being put underneath the right people?

[00:15:05] Like it just doesn't make any sense.

[00:15:07] I mean, not silly just to make you feel better

[00:15:09] because I also did something very similar when I brought somebody in with me

[00:15:13] and when I graduated from my five day,

[00:15:15] I had an extra stripe on my sash.

[00:15:17] And that was super motivating.

[00:15:20] A stripe on my sash is motivating.

[00:15:21] So I can understand why a bonus check would be motivated.

[00:15:24] Yeah.

[00:15:25] And like the feeling you get with the stripe,

[00:15:27] like I felt that when I got my watch

[00:15:29] and it felt like,

[00:15:31] like wearing it and being like everybody will know how serious I am now

[00:15:35] because they'll see me wearing this

[00:15:36] and they'll just know

[00:15:38] that I'm more serious than someone that doesn't have it.

[00:15:40] And that's not what that means at all.

[00:15:42] But that's what they make you believe it means.

[00:15:44] I get it.

[00:15:45] Wow.

[00:15:46] So internally satisfied by watching the doc

[00:15:49] is it's like, oh, it's another way for people to understand

[00:15:52] what motivates people who want to go up the ranks.

[00:15:55] And there were again so many similarities but specifically when I saw that watch.

[00:15:58] I mean, I would have much preferred to have a watch as a bonus

[00:16:01] and when I was striving to get my orange sash and then my green sash

[00:16:04] but my green sash meant so much to me

[00:16:06] because people knew that I was like a real leader.

[00:16:08] I had ran multiple businesses

[00:16:10] and all the things that the sash represented.

[00:16:12] So I understand what that watch meant to you.

[00:16:14] You guys got some blind.

[00:16:16] I think actually, Naxi and might have survived

[00:16:18] that they've given us watches and so sashes.

[00:16:21] Do you think that?

[00:16:22] No, I just sold mine.

[00:16:23] Also quick ironic tidbit.

[00:16:25] The last time I saw Nancy Salsman she gave me a gold strap for my Apple Watch.

[00:16:30] She gave me like a very fancy blingy gold watch

[00:16:33] which I'm actually wearing in the picture

[00:16:35] that's in the cover of the New York Times when we expose them.

[00:16:37] I put that on in purpose as a little,

[00:16:39] a little, a little, a little, a little,

[00:16:40] I love it.

[00:16:41] Still got the watch.

[00:16:42] Still got my watch.

[00:16:43] I have my watch story.

[00:16:44] I got my watch from Nancy.

[00:16:45] Anyway, digress.

[00:16:46] So you get on board with your friend

[00:16:48] and there was a period of the good years

[00:16:50] where you're making good money.

[00:16:52] You think that you're helping other women

[00:16:54] tell me about that little check?

[00:16:55] In the very beginning,

[00:16:57] that's really what it felt like.

[00:16:58] Like so many people were coming in

[00:17:01] and so many people are interested in it.

[00:17:02] It was such an easy way to make money.

[00:17:06] But that's how all Imolims are in the beginning.

[00:17:09] That's just how they are.

[00:17:10] My experience was not unique in any way

[00:17:13] other than that I was closer to the top

[00:17:15] because I got in earlier.

[00:17:16] But from a non-pure mid standpoint,

[00:17:19] it really felt like I was helping women

[00:17:22] with social media,

[00:17:24] getting their name out there,

[00:17:26] learning how to market themselves,

[00:17:28] learning how to do business things.

[00:17:31] I hate to call Imolims businesses

[00:17:33] because they're not.

[00:17:34] But you need business skills to do business skills.

[00:17:37] But business skills.

[00:17:38] It was interesting to watch people grow

[00:17:40] and their successes were my successes

[00:17:42] and not in a monetary way, although it was.

[00:17:44] But I felt proud of these women.

[00:17:46] Like, oh my god, look what you did.

[00:17:48] That's incredible.

[00:17:49] You had a huge sale or you did this thing

[00:17:51] or look how you put yourself out there.

[00:17:53] You were so shy before.

[00:17:54] So that was another thing.

[00:17:56] Like I felt like we were a family

[00:17:58] and we were changing and we were growing

[00:18:00] and we were being better together.

[00:18:01] And it felt so incredible.

[00:18:04] It felt so incredible.

[00:18:05] It was the longing that I had had

[00:18:07] for that community when you're younger

[00:18:09] and you're 20s before you're married and you have kids.

[00:18:12] It's that gap between that

[00:18:14] and when your children are of an age

[00:18:16] where people actually want to hang out with you

[00:18:18] and so not having that community

[00:18:20] because I was at home with my daughter

[00:18:23] and then finding it online

[00:18:25] and it was so motivating,

[00:18:27] so much love bombing, so much Euro-Roxxar,

[00:18:30] you're amazing.

[00:18:31] Oh, you know how to do social media?

[00:18:32] We've never had anybody like that on our team.

[00:18:34] You'd be such an asset.

[00:18:35] You could help us so much.

[00:18:36] Things like that.

[00:18:37] That triggered feelings that I had inside me

[00:18:39] that I already felt.

[00:18:40] Like I'm worth this, I'm good,

[00:18:42] I'm smart.

[00:18:43] These are the things that I was feeling

[00:18:44] and I wasn't,

[00:18:45] it didn't feel like I was getting it

[00:18:47] from the outside source

[00:18:48] because I was so isolated with my daughter

[00:18:50] and she thought I was awesome but it's different.

[00:18:53] And so maybe you have a group of people

[00:18:55] that are making you feel special, right?

[00:18:57] Yeah, and meeting these women

[00:18:58] and they're like oh my god, you're amazing.

[00:19:00] And then doing the things they tell me to do

[00:19:03] and having it work

[00:19:04] and having it work

[00:19:05] and then being like oh my god, they're right.

[00:19:07] This is real

[00:19:09] and then seeing it with my own eyes

[00:19:11] and being able to perpetuate that

[00:19:13] with other people but it's not real.

[00:19:16] Before you go to that,

[00:19:18] then using your success

[00:19:20] to show other people that it's possible, right?

[00:19:22] Absolutely.

[00:19:23] And say look, she can do it.

[00:19:24] You can do it.

[00:19:25] The whole rags to riches.

[00:19:26] Yeah, I wasn't at the top of the pyramid

[00:19:28] and I wasn't at the bottom of the pyramid.

[00:19:30] I was right in the middle called floating

[00:19:32] and like floating in like the, oh god, what do I use?

[00:19:35] What rank was it?

[00:19:36] I was a trainer but I was two people away

[00:19:39] and those people were in the queue waiting.

[00:19:42] So as soon as those people were to onboard

[00:19:44] I would have been ranked up to a coach.

[00:19:46] Okay.

[00:19:47] But the mass ex that has happened

[00:19:49] and everything started to crumble

[00:19:51] and that's when I started looking around

[00:19:53] and I was like this is not sustainable.

[00:19:55] What is going on?

[00:19:56] Why are they making these horrible decisions?

[00:19:58] What is happening?

[00:20:00] It didn't seem like a business.

[00:20:02] It seemed like a scam.

[00:20:03] And I didn't understand if we want to do this,

[00:20:06] we should be doing that.

[00:20:07] But we're not doing that.

[00:20:08] We're doing this completely opposite ridiculous thing

[00:20:10] that doesn't make any sense from any business standpoint at all.

[00:20:13] Why?

[00:20:14] And they're like, do you want to go on the cruise?

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:18] And I was like, well, I didn't earn the cruise.

[00:20:22] No, I know.

[00:20:23] I know but you've been working so hard

[00:20:25] and your team is growing

[00:20:26] and you were just like,

[00:20:27] you just do so much for our team

[00:20:29] and I just have an extra cruise

[00:20:31] and I find out later they had many extra cruises.

[00:20:34] But I had an extra cruise

[00:20:35] and I wanted to gift it to you

[00:20:37] because I know how hard you've been working.

[00:20:39] So you didn't earn the cruise

[00:20:41] but they wanted to give it to you anyway

[00:20:43] at the time that everything was falling apart.

[00:20:45] Okay, that sounds familiar.

[00:20:47] Sounds familiar.

[00:20:48] A little tidbit as we locked in

[00:20:49] with a whistle and we were exposing things

[00:20:51] they started promoting people

[00:20:53] who hadn't earned it.

[00:20:54] People who are friends.

[00:20:56] People who are friends who are still in.

[00:20:58] People who are going through a crisis.

[00:21:00] You're going through an internal crisis of,

[00:21:03] should I stay?

[00:21:04] Should I leave?

[00:21:05] And here's the present to keep you.

[00:21:06] Yeah, Brian.

[00:21:07] Yeah, 100%.

[00:21:08] Did you go on the cruise?

[00:21:09] I absolutely did.

[00:21:10] I should have listened to LaShay.

[00:21:12] It was a nightmare.

[00:21:13] She's right.

[00:21:14] Wait, LaShay is a bad friend.

[00:21:17] Yeah, she's the girl that says

[00:21:19] that she doesn't want to go on the cruise.

[00:21:20] She's the one who said

[00:21:21] I don't want to go on a cruise

[00:21:22] with my girl.

[00:21:23] That's awesome.

[00:21:24] She's one of my favorite.

[00:21:25] You and her were my favorite.

[00:21:26] She's amazing.

[00:21:27] She's amazing.

[00:21:28] Oh, I love that she said that.

[00:21:30] Yeah, she's amazing.

[00:21:31] Because I knew that's what she was thinking.

[00:21:33] I should have listened.

[00:21:34] I should have listened.

[00:21:35] So why was the cruise a nightmare?

[00:21:37] Well, okay.

[00:21:38] So that year there were two cruises

[00:21:39] because there were so many people

[00:21:41] even though I was given the cruise

[00:21:43] and I didn't qualify.

[00:21:44] It just doesn't make any sense.

[00:21:45] All of it doesn't make sense.

[00:21:46] It's just they're all bobbles and trinkets.

[00:21:48] So they had two boats.

[00:21:50] The first boat was 100% Lula Road.

[00:21:53] That was the absolute cult cruise.

[00:21:55] I believe that is the cruise

[00:21:56] where Deanne told everybody to get on their knees

[00:21:58] as a professional advice.

[00:22:01] Oh, right.

[00:22:02] To please make sure there has been

[00:22:03] a surprise.

[00:22:04] That's the cruise that that was said.

[00:22:06] I mean, it's been said multiple times.

[00:22:08] But that was I think the one

[00:22:09] that most people heard it at.

[00:22:10] And then there was a second cruise

[00:22:12] that happened like two months later.

[00:22:14] And that's the one that I got invited to.

[00:22:15] And I literally got invited like three or four weeks

[00:22:18] before it happened.

[00:22:19] So it was a lot of scrambling

[00:22:20] to get everything fixed.

[00:22:22] But again, I think that's intentional.

[00:22:24] Like we'll give it to you.

[00:22:25] But you have.

[00:22:26] And I remember she was like,

[00:22:27] I have this cruise,

[00:22:28] but I have to hear back by five o'clock today.

[00:22:29] Or I have to give to somebody else.

[00:22:30] And I remember like calling my husband at the time

[00:22:33] and I'm like,

[00:22:34] do you want to go on this cruise?

[00:22:35] He's like, wait, what?

[00:22:36] I was like, I mean, we have to.

[00:22:37] I'm just going to tell her yes.

[00:22:38] Okay. We'll just figure it out.

[00:22:39] And he's like, oh, okay.

[00:22:40] You know,

[00:22:41] Did you have to pay to go on the cruise?

[00:22:42] The room was free.

[00:22:43] The cruise like the cabin.

[00:22:45] Yeah.

[00:22:46] Was free.

[00:22:47] Everything else I had to pay for.

[00:22:48] So I mean, you know,

[00:22:49] it's all inclusive if you buy a cruise.

[00:22:51] But just like the basic package.

[00:22:53] But I live in San Diego

[00:22:54] and the cruise went out of Florida.

[00:22:56] So I had to fly to Florida.

[00:22:58] And then it was the cruise port

[00:23:00] is like an hour and a half outside of the airport.

[00:23:03] So then I had to get an Uber.

[00:23:05] But the cruise left in the morning.

[00:23:07] So I had to fly out the night before

[00:23:09] and then get an Uber to the hotel

[00:23:11] and then stay at a hotel

[00:23:12] and then get in the morning

[00:23:13] and take another Uber.

[00:23:14] I mean,

[00:23:15] we were probably already

[00:23:17] at $1,000 just to get to Florida

[00:23:20] with all of that.

[00:23:21] That chaps my ass.

[00:23:23] And now a brief message

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[00:25:14] The sale, sisterhood, supremacy,

[00:25:16] and other lies behind multi-level marketing.

[00:25:18] And she joined us earlier this year

[00:25:20] to talk about that Coltie Coltie ride she was on.

[00:25:22] Be sure to listen to our full episode

[00:25:24] with her that links in the show notes

[00:25:26] and check out her book,

[00:25:27] Informative Readable and Vengeable.

[00:25:33] Well listen, we're obviously big fans of the book

[00:25:36] and we'll be talking a lot about that

[00:25:38] throughout the podcast.

[00:25:39] But for those who are new to the scene here

[00:25:42] or maybe have been living under a rock

[00:25:44] and don't know what an MLM is,

[00:25:46] I mean actually still find that some people

[00:25:48] they don't know the term MLM.

[00:25:50] Like they have friends who do it

[00:25:52] but they don't know that's what it is.

[00:25:54] You want to give us a little cliff notes

[00:25:56] for the 12 people on the listening,

[00:25:58] or listening you don't know what it is.

[00:26:00] Yeah, so I will say everybody knows

[00:26:02] what an MLM is whether they know or not.

[00:26:04] Right?

[00:26:05] So it's basically an unsalered workforce

[00:26:09] who has to pay into a company

[00:26:12] to promote products that they don't get paid for

[00:26:16] unless someone actually buys them.

[00:26:18] So it's, you know,

[00:26:20] what you see on social media is be your own boss.

[00:26:23] You know I've got my own business,

[00:26:24] my own small business

[00:26:25] and that's the exact opposite of what it is.

[00:26:27] It's a huge corporation

[00:26:29] and they make their money by collecting people.

[00:26:32] They have people buy in by a business kit

[00:26:36] and then the money isn't made selling products.

[00:26:38] The money is made by then getting more people

[00:26:41] to buy the business kit and buy into the business.

[00:26:43] And you don't own your own business.

[00:26:46] You are just an unpaid contract worker.

[00:26:48] And so the way multi-level marketing

[00:26:51] makes so much money

[00:26:52] is that once you buy the business kit,

[00:26:54] they have your money.

[00:26:55] You never have to do anything

[00:26:56] and that's how these corporations thrive.

[00:26:58] They literally thrive

[00:27:00] because so many people fail.

[00:27:02] And they have it, you know, 99.7 failure rate

[00:27:04] across the board, meaning people who purchase

[00:27:07] like lose money immediately.

[00:27:10] You're already in the negative

[00:27:11] and most people never actually turn a profit.

[00:27:14] Do you wish you'd known all that

[00:27:16] when Becky invited you to have a drink?

[00:27:18] You know, I had an Ianid subscribers

[00:27:20] and the book too is I had an initial like,

[00:27:23] you know, I think we all have that little

[00:27:26] oh god it's one of those things.

[00:27:27] It's one of those things you see on social media

[00:27:30] and at that time it was really booming

[00:27:32] like, you know, 2013, 2014.

[00:27:34] It's like you saw MLM's a lot.

[00:27:37] And it was again, it's like you wouldn't know

[00:27:39] it was an MLM.

[00:27:40] It's just like oh so and so has a skincare business.

[00:27:42] So and so has a supplement business.

[00:27:44] So and so selling leggings.

[00:27:45] It's all this crap all the time, right?

[00:27:47] And you might not know what it meant at the time.

[00:27:49] But for me, I was like,

[00:27:51] ooh, do I want to be that person?

[00:27:53] But what got me was

[00:27:55] I did see that she got on some fun trips.

[00:27:58] She was seemingly earning money.

[00:28:01] She was seemingly doing really well

[00:28:04] and having a lot of fun.

[00:28:05] And when I met with her,

[00:28:06] there were a bunch of people there.

[00:28:07] And it was like, oh, you know,

[00:28:09] so whether someone had said to me,

[00:28:11] oh 99.7% of people fail,

[00:28:14] I would have been like, but look, right?

[00:28:16] Like it was that cognitive dissonance

[00:28:18] of, but I see that she who I,

[00:28:21] someone I know, who I trust is doing well.

[00:28:23] And why would she lead me astray?

[00:28:25] So I don't know if knowing that

[00:28:27] because I could have looked it up anywhere again,

[00:28:29] most of these statistics that I talk about in the book,

[00:28:32] they're all readily available.

[00:28:34] It's all out there and what keeps people stuck

[00:28:36] and continuing to enroll is that hope

[00:28:38] that maybe they can be the, you know, 0.3%.

[00:28:42] So highly recommend the book

[00:28:44] and all the juicy details.

[00:28:47] Will you give us a little cliff notes

[00:28:48] of what hooked you in terms of

[00:28:50] and I always find this so interesting

[00:28:52] like what was going on for you emotionally

[00:28:54] that that was a draw and appealing

[00:28:56] in terms of being a mom

[00:28:57] and all that comes with it.

[00:28:59] Yeah, I think that's the reason

[00:29:01] so many moms get roped in

[00:29:03] is because I was looking for something

[00:29:05] at that time.

[00:29:06] I didn't know what I was looking for,

[00:29:08] but I was at this point in my life

[00:29:10] where you know we just had our last baby.

[00:29:12] We've got five kids

[00:29:13] and we were done having kids

[00:29:16] and I knew that going back

[00:29:18] to the workforce was not in the cards for me

[00:29:20] because my husband had a demanding job.

[00:29:22] Child care for five kids would have been just stupid

[00:29:26] and I didn't know if I had any other options,

[00:29:29] but I was in that place like I think a lot of women

[00:29:31] are in where you just feel like

[00:29:32] you've lost your sense of self a little bit.

[00:29:34] So I didn't know there were any options out there for me.

[00:29:37] So when this was presented to me

[00:29:39] I was like wow,

[00:29:41] not only can I escape like tonight,

[00:29:44] you know tonight I can get out

[00:29:45] and actually put makeup on

[00:29:46] and close on and leave my kids behind

[00:29:48] and go out and meet her for drinks

[00:29:50] but gosh, this is like the hope

[00:29:53] that I can do this all the time.

[00:29:55] It was just that need for something outside of myself,

[00:29:58] outside of my mom life

[00:30:00] that I was really craving

[00:30:02] and it was bundled in with this possibility

[00:30:04] of also earning money and trips

[00:30:07] and so it was just the hope

[00:30:10] of something outside of my life at the time

[00:30:13] where maybe I felt very overwhelmed,

[00:30:15] I felt underappreciated,

[00:30:17] like I think a lot of young moms do.

[00:30:20] I had a lot of hope that it could be the magic solution.

[00:30:24] I was just noticing

[00:30:25] it's one of the consistencies that we saw

[00:30:27] and the leggings Roberta Blevin's one.

[00:30:30] It seemed like there's fertile ground

[00:30:32] for moms in this.

[00:30:35] Absolutely.

[00:30:36] And the capitalizes and moms capacity in network.

[00:30:39] Like there's a joke I have with a lot of my male friends

[00:30:41] and be like,

[00:30:42] I'll talk to Sarah, you talk to your wife,

[00:30:43] and we'll figure out when we're going to meet next.

[00:30:45] Yes.

[00:30:46] It's not a joke because they're the social coordinators,

[00:30:48] they do everything way more efficiently

[00:30:50] and then reservations at the stretch of that night.

[00:30:53] And it's like,

[00:30:54] so it seems like there's an infrastructure

[00:30:56] and already kind of natural there

[00:31:00] that's capitalized on.

[00:31:02] Oh yeah, I mean the mental load is huge

[00:31:05] and the ultimate issue here is that

[00:31:08] their art system set up for women, right?

[00:31:10] There aren't women's unpaid labor.

[00:31:12] Carries our entire economy.

[00:31:14] I could go on about the patriarchy and all that shit.

[00:31:16] Right.

[00:31:17] But it's because there's a lack of resources.

[00:31:20] There's a lack of choices.

[00:31:21] And so when you're given something that even if it's

[00:31:24] a really shitty choice,

[00:31:26] but it's there,

[00:31:27] it's going to look enticing.

[00:31:29] It's going to look like something.

[00:31:31] And I think MLMs do a really good job

[00:31:33] of not only filling those pain points of being the mom

[00:31:37] who's at home or being the woman who's struggling

[00:31:40] with her career and balancing home life and all that stuff.

[00:31:43] You feel like you're doing something wrong no matter what.

[00:31:45] You stay home.

[00:31:46] If you work either way,

[00:31:47] someone's going to say you're doing the wrong thing, right?

[00:31:49] But it also packages all the pain points

[00:31:52] you have just as a female like hey,

[00:31:54] do you need to lose baby weight?

[00:31:56] You know, have you put on some pounds?

[00:31:58] Have you whatever has your aging?

[00:32:00] Has your skin like you got some wrinkles?

[00:32:02] Got some crow's feet?

[00:32:03] I haven't fixed that too.

[00:32:04] So it's it packages all of these pain points into one,

[00:32:07] which is what makes it so predatory.

[00:32:09] And then it's your friend inviting you, right?

[00:32:11] Or your your your kids teacher or it's these people

[00:32:14] in proximity to you that you feel like you can trust.

[00:32:17] And they're in a group and they wear cute little booties

[00:32:20] Yeah, and cute little jeans and little hats.

[00:32:23] Like I've seen pictures and I'm like if I was super lonely

[00:32:26] and wanting friends,

[00:32:27] I would totally want to be part of that.

[00:32:29] Now I'm like, ooh.

[00:32:30] Yeah, I mean it does.

[00:32:31] Super cringey.

[00:32:32] Yeah.

[00:32:33] It's like when you're you know change in diapers at 2 a.m.

[00:32:35] or whatever, like in you see a picture pop up on Facebook

[00:32:38] of people on a cruise ship or whatever,

[00:32:40] it's going to draw you in no matter what they're selling.

[00:32:43] Damn, Facebook.

[00:32:44] I mean more Instagram now.

[00:32:46] But that's a real pain point for a lot of people.

[00:32:48] It's just the inherent fomo of like look what everyone else is doing.

[00:32:51] And also like it's not real.

[00:32:53] It's not real sometimes you know sometimes there's there's some truth

[00:32:56] and like okay, then maybe they're in you know the Bahamas or whatever.

[00:32:59] But like you don't know if they're happy or not.

[00:33:01] You don't know that was actually one of the things in your book

[00:33:04] that I loved about like showing how what you posted on social media

[00:33:07] and that was going on all around you that really wasn't as glamorous.

[00:33:10] But nobody posts that because that would be stinking thinking.

[00:33:14] Right, there's always a shred of truth and everything right even like.

[00:33:18] Right, like next year there were some fundamental things that were very interesting

[00:33:22] and helpful and good.

[00:33:23] And and yet there are also a lot of things that weren't like that's what drew you in.

[00:33:28] Like the system as a whole was very flawed.

[00:33:31] And so all of these things that you do it's like okay yes I did go on a trip.

[00:33:35] But it wasn't really free and I got taxed on it.

[00:33:38] And you know, I got drunk and all these other things happened

[00:33:42] and like it didn't really help but what you saw on social media was was very pretty.

[00:33:46] Right, it's just not the whole story.

[00:33:48] Tell us about some of the red flags, some of the most cringy things that happen along the way

[00:33:52] that you didn't really understand what you were looking at till now.

[00:33:55] You know looking back obviously you can see a lot in hindsight.

[00:33:59] But even as I was going even the first night when I signed up.

[00:34:03] I think it's not that you don't necessarily see red flags.

[00:34:07] You know your intuition does pop up but it's again what MLM is a really good at

[00:34:12] is squashing them immediately, squashing any of those thoughts and preempting

[00:34:16] any negative thoughts you're going to have before you have them.

[00:34:21] So they might say like you know here's this script for example.

[00:34:24] Like here's the script of what you should post on social media.

[00:34:27] Well your immediate reaction is like ew that's not even my words that's gross.

[00:34:31] But they'll say to you okay this is going to feel weird.

[00:34:34] This is going to feel weird.

[00:34:35] But this is how you step out of your comfort zone and this is how so everything you do then when you go into it

[00:34:40] and you're cold messaging someone and you know you feel gross about it.

[00:34:43] You're like oh but they told me I was going to feel this way.

[00:34:46] So all of those intuitive feelings are squashed from the get go

[00:34:50] and that is really dangerous because then you just lower the bar right?

[00:34:54] You're like oh then you're just sending cold messages all the time.

[00:34:57] It's no big deal.

[00:34:58] It's not that you've grown or become stronger or whatever it's just

[00:35:03] you've squashed your intuition even more and you have people all around you

[00:35:08] then we're doing the same thing and so you're in this sea of people

[00:35:12] who are doing the same thing and then it just adds to that cognitive dissonance

[00:35:15] of well they're doing it too and yes it's not so bad.

[00:35:19] Because now what you're doing is just normal.

[00:35:21] It's just normal like business stuff right?

[00:35:24] Also you're in an echo chamber so you're going to get those people

[00:35:28] to reinforce it regardless of that.

[00:35:30] Yeah and then they start with the if people do say something negative.

[00:35:35] If someone does come back to you you know they're just a hit or they don't want to see you succeed.

[00:35:39] It's very black and white it's never a you know well they maybe they just like you

[00:35:43] but they just don't want to buy these products maybe they already have something they like.

[00:35:47] There's never any rational thought behind it.

[00:35:50] It's very much thought stopping and you know if you hear a no it means not right now.

[00:35:56] It means they just don't understand yet.

[00:35:58] They don't understand the benefit that they're going to get out of it.

[00:36:02] So just keep working keep you know keep talking to them

[00:36:05] and if they say something negative about you they just don't want to see you succeed.

[00:36:08] They're just jealous.

[00:36:09] And we're going to play a little game shortly about how to handle some of those thought

[00:36:13] terminating cliches and MLM sales tactics.

[00:36:16] Before you do I want to mention a point that really stuck out to me that I hadn't considered before.

[00:36:21] Just in terms of how like this is a society where we're taught that like you know safe boundaries and no means no.

[00:36:28] Especially as women right but here's a place where no does not mean no.

[00:36:32] Yeah tell us about that.

[00:36:33] There is a lot of internalized misogyny in MLM's I mean there's a lot of internalized misogyny in our in our world right this.

[00:36:41] And so I think it just comes with the territory when you're with a group of pretty much all white affluent women

[00:36:50] that there's going to be internalized misogyny there.

[00:36:52] And so you have that as like the foundation and then you are told that you know best you know this this this company this system

[00:37:02] this team this whatever structure that you're in is the best and it's the best thing for you.

[00:37:08] It's the best thing for everyone everyone should want to do this and we know best and we know best and if they don't if they say no

[00:37:15] it's because they're not educated if they tell you it's a pyramid scheme they're not educated.

[00:37:20] They just don't have the information so don't feel bad about that they just don't have the information.

[00:37:24] So then when you say you know someone says no to you someone says no to your opportunities says no to your products.

[00:37:30] You automatically are like okay well it's not that they don't want them it's that they don't understand them.

[00:37:35] They don't understand this company they don't understand these products and they will and so it's a very ooo cringy when again your taught consent

[00:37:45] and you're taught the meaning of no in your life but yet you're supposed to never take no for an answer in this one avenue.

[00:37:53] It's kind of a minefuck you know.

[00:37:55] When you say internalized misogyny means amongst the women enforcing it on the women.

[00:38:00] Oh for sure yes for sure and I saw this many times in different things that happened I described one situation in the book where we were at a convention

[00:38:09] and someone had been something was slipped in her drink and she had to go to hospital nothing happened or thank God but you know this group of women were like

[00:38:16] oh but did you see what she was wearing and so that that kind of stuff where again you're in this meritocracy where you are in charge of your own destiny and manifest your all you know all that stuff.

[00:38:28] Where it's your work that gets you to this place of success and so if you do God forbid have you know you're sexually assaulted or something then the mindset is well it must have been something you did like that that's how fucked up it is

[00:38:43] and how could it not be when you are supposedly in charge of your own success and in charge of whatever happens to you you control your own destiny well why wouldn't she be in control of everything goes on around you

[00:38:53] and anything bad that happens to must be your fault too.

[00:38:56] The other red flag that I saw and I'm pretty sure this happened in RMLM2 although I didn't really make the connections till I read your book actually was was the religious undertones or in your case overtones

[00:39:08] that it's also I'm bit of a mind fuck because it's your it's all your own destiny or the boss bay but it's also God.

[00:39:15] Oh yeah so yeah work the religious manipulation so again if you don't succeed in your Christian you're a faith filled person and this is God's plan for you

[00:39:29] and you see so many so much of this in social media posts like I'm so glad God put this company in my life I'm so glad God blessed me with this and Jesus all this stuff right so if you don't succeed what does that say about how God feels about you

[00:39:44] if you believe God put this in your life that's a whole nother level you know because obviously religion like believe whatever you want like I'm fully like whatever makes you happy go to town

[00:39:55] but religion in its worst manifestation can be very dangerous we know that we know that and so you're adding that intent then to this business and of course I use air quotes because it's not a business but that's what everyone says

[00:40:08] it just has all the markers of being potentially harmful right and you're going to take that on yourself that oh God must must not love me very much because God wanted me to do this.

[00:40:18] Hashtag not blessed not blessed yes indeed and that was also very cringey throughout your book in the best way possible as I was thinking about all the different people that I was overseeing and trying to help but also you know had my own intentions for them and one of the big red flags

[00:40:38] that I saw is just your recognition of seeing how like you are helping them but also like is it really what's best for them right and like you guys have said this many times too is you really think you're doing the about nobody goes into these and they're like well I'm going to stir some people over

[00:40:53] and then I'm got you know nobody goes into it like that everyone goes in thinking I have hope that this could work for me and I'm going to tell my friends about it because I have hope for them too.

[00:41:02] So yes you're benefited from them joining them by products whatever but I really did want my friends to succeed I really did want that.

[00:41:11] So then when you see that it's not actually happening it's really hard because I'm like okay I've done all the things and I'm succeeding and they're not why well I've been told it's because they're not doing the work well I'm seeing it with my own eyes it's really hard to reconcile that.

[00:41:28] You made a comment one your interviews where in order for me to make money other people had to lose money which I think is kind of like that's a hard thing to sit by and watch when you're trying to help these people

[00:41:40] and you're recognizing that you are doing well because they're doing that right and that's the way the structure set up talk about that how was that process like it was a long process a very long process

[00:41:53] and once I finally got to that place and you know part of my story obviously is going through alcohol addiction and part of my awakening was getting sober and seeing that a lot of the amends I had to make were around this business and a lot of the things I'd been saying I couldn't say anymore and kind of aligning myself back with my intuition before I joined.

[00:42:14] You know when I joined with obviously I was drinking wine when I joined right so it was like my intuition came back online and I was able to understand what I was doing on a deeper level and yet still I was like okay but yet I've done all these things and I'm here I'm succeeding

[00:42:31] and you know I still I want to help these people succeed and so you see in the book I it's like I put a lot of money back into the company I put a lot of money back into the people

[00:42:41] and I thought for a long time like how can I sell people this and then not stay how can I not stick it out with them even if they're not succeeding now I like I still believed it was possible on some level there was just cognitive dissonance for a long time until it was just so obvious that I was going to do it

[00:43:00] and I was so obvious that it was not going to happen and and it really was all of the people at the top every convention every year was the same people.

[00:43:10] It was the same people in the stands watching and hoping it never changed and if this possibility if this opportunity is available for everybody then you should see more people growing and more people rising at the top it never happened.

[00:43:25] So it was a very slow process and it was a slow process of knowing like what do I do now because then you have people saying to you don't quit the only way you feel is if you quit you built this why would you walk away from this

[00:43:38] and it's like okay well I did and also when you're making money it's like how do you just walk away from it right you know once you get acclimated to like you make the money you spend the money

[00:43:50] and again a lot of the money was going back into the system these trips the car the all this stuff the clothes the gifts for my team you got to pay to play you got to pay to play yeah.

[00:44:00] And so it was slowly untethering myself from you know not spending as much I wasn't putting much as much back into the system I really started distancing myself from it

[00:44:10] and again like asking myself like how much money is worth feeling this way.

[00:44:17] Also you hadn't done the math yet and the profit and loss statement which I thought was really interesting.

[00:44:22] You're never encouraged to you are never encouraged to do a profit loss statement which should be like the first thing in a legitimate business it would be the first thing any business coach would tell you to do.

[00:44:34] And you know even in the companies every MLM company has their own income disclosure statement every single one you can look it up yourself they're all abysmal they are all abysmal and your uploads the company will talk it away because they'll say well lots of people just join they buy the kit because they like the products they don't plan on selling they don't plan on making a profit but the thing is the company knows right the company knows the number of people selling that number of people buying the number of people who are actively working and not working so they could decide what to do.

[00:45:03] So they could disclose those numbers why don't they again because it's abysmal because most people lose money and it's it's really damaging because then there's this whole sunk cost fallacy right of you can make someone to join like hey it's a bigger discount whatever just join they'll be fine you know don't look behind the curtain and then they're like well I already spent this much money.

[00:45:29] I already I'm already this invested in this way with these people with this money and then it makes it even harder to leave.

[00:45:38] This is the golden age of cult recovery the more we speak up and share our stories the more we realize we are not alone your voice and your story can empower others this is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement learn more at i got out dot org

[00:45:59] you

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[00:47:16] additional taxes fees and restrictions apply see meant mobile for details hello dear Colt listeners we would love to recommend a podcast you right now it's called

[00:47:26] sounds like a cult it's a podcast about all the Colt e groups we follow these days it's a more lighthearted twist on cults think Disney adults church camp swifties and those Stanley cups that everyone's using these days wait I have one of those Stanley cups does that mean I'm in a new cult here's looking to use her I mean how else you bring so much water with you when you go to sporting events you need one of those Stanley

[00:47:48] up Stanley's cult on sounds like a cults new season host Amanda Montel one of my favorite people chooses a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist and analyzes it with the help of expert guests listener Collins juicy stories and hilarious games to figure out if the group of the week is a live your life watch your back or I get the fuck out level called it's a great blend of fascinating and fun speaking of live your life or watch your back I love the episode about the cult of car

[00:48:18] practice now listen we go to the car practice all the time but some car practice can be a little bit Colt e Amanda you brought up a great point I got a bit defensive at first about my car

[00:48:27] practice is I think mine's a good one but not all of them are that sort of the point to look at the groups or the things that we follow and figure out if it's

[00:48:34] healthier not and that's why we love this show my favorite is one on Amazon I knew it Jeff base so she's a cold leader I knew it the whole time does this mean I have to give up my prime

[00:48:43] membership no no of course not just you know live your life and watch your back I guess so a new season just dropped most recently the one on kpop

[00:48:50] who knew and I'm definitely not in that call I feel like a little bit Colt e listeners would also really love the

[00:48:57] cult of purity rings featuring Kelsey from normal gossip and of course the self help episode starring yours truly which was so much fun

[00:49:05] and by the way Amanda please help me back wait she can come back on ours I think so because Amanda has a new book

[00:49:11] and we can't wait to have her on to discuss that we cannot wait to have Amanda back Amanda we love you and we love your

[00:49:17] podcast I'm sure we're going to love your new book too sounds like a cold is available in all major podcasts platforms and new

[00:49:23] episodes come out every Tuesday for more find the show and Instagram at sounds like a cult pod happy listening

[00:49:30] Wow MLMs would you say they suck I say they suck and that's an understatement so okay the anti MLM starter pack is

[00:49:43] really going well it's a power hour we've heard from Roberta blvines Emily Limpolson two women who are

[00:49:48] crushing it hashtag boss babe all the ways that MLMs prey on people and exploit their hopes and

[00:49:54] wallets and for our last clip in this check yourself before you wreck yourself MLM remix we wanted to go

[00:49:59] all the way back to season one of a little bit cold to each other but the wonderful Douglas Brooks none of these

[00:50:04] abuses of power get addressed or are made right without somehow from legal eagles and Doug Brooks is a real

[00:50:09] force for helping wage legal war on MLMs he's an attorney who represents victims of deceptive schemes and knows

[00:50:15] too well that getting caught up in one can be hugely devastating for the better part of three decades he's

[00:50:21] dedicated a significant portion of his practice representing the victims of deceptive MLM schemes including cases

[00:50:27] such as websterverse omnitrition international roads first consumer bylines incorporated in Jacobs

[00:50:32] versus herb life international he's interviewed her to pose hundreds of participants at MLM schemes

[00:50:37] review tens of thousands of documents which were produced by MLM firms subject to confidentiality orders

[00:50:43] and study the compensation plans of scores of MLM companies just basically to say he knows his

[00:50:48] ship in case you miss that reference roads versus consumers byline ink consumers byline was Keith

[00:50:55] Bernary's brainchild for next year a little present for all you next year nerds out there so here's

[00:51:00] an excerpt from our chat with Doug Brooks listen up people free legal insights from our real lawyer

[00:51:07] Doug Brooks hello thank you so much for joining us today we are so excited to have you on because we

[00:51:12] have a zillion questions for you I hope I hope you've had as much caffeine as we have yeah I've

[00:51:17] had my quota for the day yeah when we decided to do this podcast and we put it out to the universe

[00:51:24] and our audience what culty things do people want to know about that we could look at so many

[00:51:29] people wrote us saying would you please do an episode on MLMs and I found that quite shocking

[00:51:34] actually more than any other culty thing we got bombarded with it and so many people told me

[00:51:41] things like personal stories of saying that they lost friends to different schemes and different groups

[00:51:46] and you know trying to sell them stuff you know obviously I can see correlations right off the bat

[00:51:52] but one of the things that we want to do with the podcast is to look at you know what makes a healthy

[00:51:57] group that's dedicated to something when does it turn south and become bad you know where's the deception

[00:52:03] where's the thing that makes it what we know as a cult like a bad cult versus a group of people excited

[00:52:09] about this similar cause when our mutual friend can suggested that we speak we were so excited because

[00:52:15] what we were looking for with somebody just like you as an expert in this field I mean we've

[00:52:19] so many questions but the first thing we wanted to ask was how did you become a lawyer that

[00:52:23] became an expert in MLMs would you tell us a little bit about yourself I guess my first MLM

[00:52:29] cases I filed in the early 1990s before then in the 80s I had worked in a firm that specialized

[00:52:38] in franchise law and we represented franchises and distributors in traditional you know organizations

[00:52:47] across the country but and I think it was 1992 but one of my fellow lawyers in that firm we branched

[00:52:55] off we left that firm and we started our own firm and we thought we would continue doing you know

[00:53:02] franchise cases since we had no money to pay the rent or anything like that we shared

[00:53:07] office space with another firm in exchange for our time and this was a firm that did a lot of class

[00:53:13] action work and they had just filed a bunch of cases against multiple marketing companies alleging

[00:53:19] that they were pyramid schemes and they didn't quite know what to do with these cases and then we

[00:53:27] felt well cheese with our background in franchise law we ought to be able to figure out you know

[00:53:32] these cases pretty easily and then quickly found out that multiple marketing is an entirely

[00:53:40] different animal it's not really a product distribution system at all it really is a recruiting

[00:53:48] game we got further and further into it and I took a particular interest in these cases and

[00:53:55] that I just sort of you know grew from there I mean I've done many many different types of cases

[00:54:01] you know class actions and other types of cases is was these pyramid scheme cases that really

[00:54:08] sort of got my gut and now that I'm sort of semi-retired I spend most of my professional time on

[00:54:16] these cases on arguing for better regulation and transparency in the industry and representing

[00:54:25] consumer advocates pro bono who get threatened or sued by multiple marketing companies

[00:54:33] and I'm in the process of working with a group of folks that are we're organizing a conference

[00:54:38] on the multi-level marketing industry that will be taking place April 30th and May 1st this year

[00:54:45] we've got speakers lined up from the Federal Trade Commission from international regulators

[00:54:51] academics consumer advocates social media folks all focused on the problems caused by by this

[00:55:01] will make sure to include the information about that workshop in our show notes so people can

[00:55:07] check that out and I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the fact that you and one of the reasons

[00:55:13] we were excited to speak to you as our MLM expert is that you actually first heard about key

[00:55:18] three nary I'm understanding through consumers byline his venture before next year

[00:55:25] and I'd love to hear your perspective on that and you know obviously our podcast isn't just

[00:55:31] about next year but that's our background so when we joined as you know 2005 for me in 2001 for

[00:55:37] Nippy there wasn't a ton of bad press yet but there were if you knew how to dig around on the internet

[00:55:44] which was also still pretty new back then you could find some information about his original

[00:55:51] company called consumers byline international which from what I was told was was a buying group

[00:55:57] similar to something like Costco that could get goods to people at a much more discounted rate in

[00:56:03] other words Keith recognized there were as unethical behaviors in the market and the market prices

[00:56:09] were so driven and he also understood that so many people I don't remember the number of Americans

[00:56:14] were in debt and he wanted to change that he was such a noble ethical man that he wanted to change

[00:56:20] the whole system so he found a way to get goods at a discounted rate by buying it in bulk and then

[00:56:26] delivering it to his membership there was also a recruitment of selling memberships to people so

[00:56:33] the membership was really really cheap and then you would access to all these goods at a totally

[00:56:37] discounted rate and that this was such a noble way of helping Americans that of course it got shut

[00:56:45] down by a number of attorney generals and it was at Arkansas or something so yeah the story

[00:56:51] was this is when I went and asked him directly because my reservations were around

[00:56:57] what happened there and the story they told us is that 22 district attorneys and 22 separate states

[00:57:03] filed a lawsuit against them and that when he went out to Arkansas that represented some Walmart

[00:57:09] and someone related to the Clinton administration that he wouldn't say and he presented his not saying

[00:57:16] it is honorable you didn't want out the person and he's like they offered me $5 million to take my

[00:57:21] company outside their state and shut it down and I wouldn't take the money and when he told me that

[00:57:27] and I went and checked with other people they were like yeah you know apparently one of Clinton's

[00:57:31] lawyers in the Walmart family didn't want his model because it was going to put them out of business

[00:57:35] and this is what they sold people that enrolled they sold them to buy lines as a successful business

[00:57:40] yeah he said they used to tell us that he did I don't remember the number but like ex billion amount

[00:57:46] 50 million in his first year second year of business so like it did so well that it was a threat

[00:57:51] to capitalism I guess no it was a threat to people that want to control the market so that's

[00:57:56] what we were told and nippy thinks I'm crazy but every time I do these podcasts I'm also trying

[00:58:02] to reach the 20 remaining loyalists who haven't seen the full picture yet because if I had known

[00:58:08] what I think you're about to tell me I would have run the other way so what was CBI actually?

[00:58:13] CBI was a cleverly designed pyramid scheme it was portrayed as a multi-level marketing

[00:58:24] company in which the product was membership in a buying club you would become a member of this

[00:58:33] buying club and then you would also recruit other people to become members of the buying club

[00:58:40] and for the reason I call it clever gets into sort of the intricacies of how

[00:58:46] multi-level marketing companies are designed we can get into that later but

[00:58:51] the basic product this buying club we learned and discovery was created by an entirely separate

[00:58:58] company called I think it was purchase power ink a company that had been in business long before

[00:59:05] CBI and they sold discount buying memberships to corporations that they could offer as you know

[00:59:13] employee benefits or something like that and the basic price was something like 20 bucks a year

[00:59:19] CBI sold those memberships for something like $200 a year the idea that there was some benefit

[00:59:26] to joining CBI is a little questionable that extra money the 180 or so dollars that went to basically

[00:59:33] to pay commissions to to the people that joined and following a typical multi-level marketing

[00:59:39] structure most of those commissions went to the people at the very top and very little went to

[00:59:46] everyone else and I think at its peak CBI had somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 members

[00:59:53] and with an MLM those numbers constantly fluctuate because people are constantly dropping out.

[00:59:58] I mean the sort of grandiose notion that this is something that's going to upend capitalism or

[01:00:05] or the idea that Walmart would have paid some huge sum of money for for Keith to walk away from

[01:00:11] the business is sort of ridiculous certainly nothing like that came up in discovery I've never

[01:00:17] heard that before really what happened in the case is that you know we filed our complaint I think it

[01:00:22] was 1992 but main defense that CBI raised was they had an arbitration clause in the distributor

[01:00:29] agreement so this is a clause that says you can't sue us you have to arbitrate and you can't do it

[01:00:35] as a class action and so that was their their main defense we had adequately alleged that they

[01:00:42] were a pyramid scheme a pyramid scheme violates New York State public policy and therefore the judge

[01:00:50] would not enforce a contract that violated public policy sort of a technical legal thing CBI appealed

[01:00:58] that to the first circuit court appeals and while that appeal was pending the New York stated

[01:01:04] attorney general filed a complaint and they sort of docked their hat to us because they used some

[01:01:09] of the information or some of the allegations in our complaint they modeled their complaint based

[01:01:15] in part on that and essentially they were able to shut CBI down there had been a number of state

[01:01:22] actions against CBI before this but they only affected their own states or Arkansas can only

[01:01:30] protect Arkansas consumers but because CBI was located in New York New York was able to shut

[01:01:37] them down completely such a different story than what we were told yeah yeah I'm afraid so

[01:01:42] there was a creative aspect to how it was designed but it was basically the same model that MLM

[01:01:50] has followed since the 1950s I don't know if you know this but Keith proudly in his teaching of

[01:01:57] sales shared that he did sell encyclopedias door to door and did do M way and tried all the different

[01:02:04] models and had decided that MLMs were inherently unethical which is why when I joined next year

[01:02:12] and people would say oh it looks like a pyramid scheme or it's an MLM and I talked to the

[01:02:16] leadership about that they said it's not an MLM because MLMs are unethical and this system is

[01:02:21] not so before I even get into that can you very quickly define MLM versus pyramid scheme versus direct

[01:02:29] selling as best you can direct selling is easy one direct selling is person to person selling other

[01:02:36] than from a fixed retail location you know the old door to door salesman the direct seller

[01:02:44] sometimes he actually owns the stuff that he's selling so he buys it from the company and then

[01:02:49] re-sells it to the customer sometimes he just writes up an order like the encyclopedias salesman

[01:02:55] he doesn't own the encyclopedia he's selling to you he just writes up the order and then the

[01:03:00] the company delivers it to you and then pays him a commission and maybe there's a regional manager

[01:03:07] who gets a piece of that commission maybe there's a zone manager who gets a smaller piece of that

[01:03:12] commission but so there might be you know two or three three levels of management that get a piece

[01:03:19] of that commission but the guy that actually makes the sale gets the biggest cut okay and that's

[01:03:26] ethical that's ethical direct selling is as American as apple pie it's been around for thousands

[01:03:32] of years there's just nothing wrong with it multiple marketing likes to portray itself as direct

[01:03:39] selling but the way multiple level marketing works is when you become a distributor you not only

[01:03:45] get the right to buy and sell the products that are advertised or marketed by this company you also

[01:03:53] get the right to recruit other distributors and you get the right to sell them the right to recruit

[01:04:00] other distributors and on and on so that you can recruit what they call a large a downline of

[01:04:07] distributors below you and every time one of those distributors buys a product from the company

[01:04:14] you get a commission so you could say in one way that MLM is a type of direct selling in which

[01:04:23] the distributors can recruit other distributors not to get too technical I don't even think it

[01:04:28] really is direct selling at all because the focus really is on recruiting every time you look at an

[01:04:33] MLM company people are not making money by selling products the people that are making lots of

[01:04:40] money are are successful recruiters so it really is a recruiting game so the distinction is as a

[01:04:47] distributor I am not making money off my product I'm making money off the effort of other people yes

[01:04:55] and the issue of pyramid scheme a pyramid scheme is an arrangement where participants pay money

[01:05:03] for the right to recruit people and receive compensation that is not primarily related

[01:05:09] to retail sales MLM companies very often are accused of being pyramid schemes and certainly in my

[01:05:18] experience essentially everyone that I've looked at has turned out to be a pyramid scheme at least

[01:05:25] under under that definition because the emphasis is on recruiting the people at the top making a

[01:05:31] lot of money from recruiting the people at the bottom are constantly churning in and out losing

[01:05:38] what they put into it and the incentives of the compensation plan are all in favor of recruiting

[01:05:47] rather than retailing and in order to earn commissions based on your down line that down line

[01:05:53] you recruited you have to keep on buying stuff every MLM I've ever looked at there is some kind of

[01:05:59] purchase qualification in order to earn commissions if you interview an MLM company they will

[01:06:07] swear on a stack of bibles that they do not require purchases but if you look at their comp plan

[01:06:14] what you find is that in effect in order to really participate in order to earn those commissions

[01:06:21] you've got to buy stuff yeah theoretically you could just get in and not buy anything and yeah

[01:06:26] no one's gonna hold a gun to your head and say you have to buy something but in order to reap the

[01:06:33] benefits of being in the plan you've got to buy stuff and those purchases are the things that

[01:06:40] that drives the success of the company the longer you keep people in the more people you recruit

[01:06:47] the more successful the MLM is going to be so what I'm hearing you saying pyramid scheme is synonymous

[01:06:54] for you with MLM to a degree yeah I wouldn't I don't want to go that far okay I just what I'll say

[01:07:00] is everyone have looked at so far right what I'm understanding for myself because I agreed when

[01:07:06] people wrote to me that MLMs can be culty and the division of friendships are similar in terms

[01:07:12] of like having a friend in a cult is very similar to having a friend who's trying to sell you

[01:07:18] x y and z out of their garage right and the distinction I'm coming to terms with for myself

[01:07:23] is that the and tell me if this is accurate is it the cult that is destructive is it is destructive

[01:07:29] because there is a deception and there's a lie and the deceptive lie that is also part

[01:07:35] of MLMs that the ones that you've looked at is that it's not true what they're saying and what

[01:07:42] they're saying is you can make a lot of money and they're promising financial freedom and they're

[01:07:47] promising all these things that are actually very very difficult if not impossible or only possible

[01:07:54] for the 1% at the top who are earning from the efforts of the 99% worker bees and you really you

[01:08:02] have it I mean that's one of the sort of the tragic things about this is because people

[01:08:07] they get involved and they start recruiting their friends and their family turning those personal

[01:08:13] relationships into commercial relationships and then they find out after a while that they're

[01:08:20] really not being successful they're losing money and not only are they losing money but the people

[01:08:27] that they brought into it are losing money so they not only have harmed themselves they've harmed

[01:08:32] other people the they're not only victims they're also perpetrators and that's sort of one of

[01:08:38] the things that sets this apart from other types of consumer fraud is that the MLM process turns

[01:08:46] people into recruiters even before they really understand what they're getting into I mean one

[01:08:51] of the first things they have you do is make a list of all the people you know and because

[01:08:57] you're going to be you know you want to share this opportunity with them you know this is such

[01:09:01] a wonderful thing we are going to change the world and make it a better place and it would be

[01:09:07] wrong not to share this with your with your friends and family and everything that you just said

[01:09:13] was also said to us right some shape or some in some shape reform in next year as well as soon as

[01:09:19] you did the five day like wasn't this training amazing and everyone's like yeah because they're all

[01:09:23] high off the experience and then can you think of who else in your life would you would you want to

[01:09:28] share this program with and we're all writing lists because not only at least for me was I 100

[01:09:34] percent truthfully so enamored with the whole thing and I did want to share it with everybody

[01:09:39] but if you shared it with three people within at the time it was three months you got your entire

[01:09:44] tuition back which was impossible three and well I did it because I was such a good recruiter

[01:09:50] which is something I've also come into terms with this with this whole debacle and I don't say

[01:09:55] this proudly it's part of my like well your skill set was abused my skills that was abused but

[01:10:00] like you know when I say I was just you know star recruiter or whatever like however I'm portrayed

[01:10:04] in the media I'm not saying that because I'm proud of it I'm saying it because I'm trying to

[01:10:07] take ownership of it so I can like own it that I did that and learn from it and teach people

[01:10:14] why it's bad so that other people don't make the same mistake that I did so that's largely why we're

[01:10:19] doing all of this you know the podcast and everything well I mean ultimately this is all about

[01:10:25] abuse as a power you know the through line with everything from we've talked to people in

[01:10:30] Scientology we've talked to people you know and what you're saying and other domains it's always

[01:10:36] about abuses of power and one of the things that's particularly interesting about this is in a world

[01:10:42] is there a world where these types of companies can be ethical have any of them come close what are

[01:10:49] they missing it seems to me from from what I've listened to in your work is that ultimate they don't

[01:10:54] because the numbers always you end up exceeding the number of people on planet in order to

[01:10:59] there's a term for that too right the concept that there's there will come a time where the

[01:11:02] recruit meant pool will dry up right I like to compare this to to an issue with franchising when I

[01:11:09] did franchise cases one of the types of cases that we handle we call them cannibalization cases those

[01:11:15] are cases where one franchise store is located too close to another store so it has an impact

[01:11:22] and you know my one of my my most famous franchise case was a case called check versus Burger King where

[01:11:28] I represented this Burger King franchisey and Burger King opened a location that that cut his sales

[01:11:36] I forget what the percentage was basically it took away it made a profitable store into a loser

[01:11:41] and we sued the judge ultimately ruled that there's a covenant of good faith and fair dealing so

[01:11:48] even though Burger King didn't grant protected territories it didn't give Burger King the right to

[01:11:54] build a store anywhere it wanted if it was going to harm an existing franchisey but the point

[01:12:00] of that is that franchisees in normal systems distributors and normal systems don't want there to be

[01:12:08] a lot of other distributors because that's competition ideally you want to have an exclusive

[01:12:13] and if you can't get an exclusive you at least want a limit on the number of of other distributors

[01:12:19] with multiple marketing this gets turned on its head the distributors are recruiting other

[01:12:25] distributors and if you're in the business of retailing products the last thing you want is

[01:12:32] a million other people that are selling the same thing at the same price to the same people

[01:12:37] and that's what makes this thing impossible to work as as a form of of retailing as a form of product

[01:12:44] distribution because in a viable distribution system you know the company has to be happy but the

[01:12:51] franchisee or the distributor has to be happy too everybody has to be able to have a reasonable chance

[01:12:57] of making a profit but with MLM you really can't make money retailing because you've got all these

[01:13:04] other people out there who are who are selling the same thing you could have a perfectly wonderful

[01:13:09] product and some of them are and some of them aren't if there's a million other people out there

[01:13:15] selling the same thing maybe you're going to be selling at a cost maybe you're going to be selling

[01:13:19] at a loss but you know you're not going to be able to make the kind of profits that you need to

[01:13:25] have a functional business and if you look at any MLM what you see is over and over again

[01:13:32] that people at the top the people that are marching out into the stage and talking about all the

[01:13:37] money that they're making the money that they're making is commissions from their downline

[01:13:42] they're not making a lot of money retailing the product so again I apologize if I've gone off

[01:13:47] on no no no you actually just reminded me that it's true where I around the center in Vancouver as you know

[01:13:53] and that was a huge problem because it's a small community here and and ultimately people would hear

[01:14:00] about next year and there'd be fights over who was going to be the sponsor for somebody because

[01:14:06] you had to fill out on your form when you're signing up for a five day you know all your information

[01:14:11] and you have to say who is responsible for you coming and someone would come to me but like well I

[01:14:14] heard about it from this person I met them on set and I heard about it from that person at a party

[01:14:18] but ultimately I came to your intro Sarah and I heard it from you but I wouldn't take credit because

[01:14:23] I was that was my job to put on info nights right so I have to figure out well who told you about

[01:14:28] it and then people would like fight over people well I told them about it first but the other person

[01:14:32] convinced them to sign up and got them to sign the paperwork like it was that kind of crazy

[01:14:38] dynamics that was so toxic I feel like you know that and this is something that I brought up with

[01:14:43] you on the phone when we were when I first introduced myself to you that I feel like I have to say

[01:14:49] and I'm hesitant to say it but I feel like I have to that I was in an MLM before I even got

[01:14:56] into next year and the story behind that is that when I was in university in the 90s somebody

[01:15:02] very close to me had success with an MLM and put me in their down line so that when I came out of

[01:15:09] university I'd have another stream of income and so when I came out of it I was like what's this

[01:15:15] and took the products and enjoyed the products and didn't do much with it till I needed a side hustle

[01:15:21] to my acting and I gave it a go and I didn't get very far I don't think I got past the first like

[01:15:27] you know the different levels that you have to go up to to be successful in an MLM I like the

[01:15:31] product I did not enjoy the recruitment of other people and to get them into the business and in

[01:15:38] fact put a very large stream on one of my very best friends relationship because I brought her in

[01:15:44] and it really wasn't like in line with who she was and I think we've since mended but like wow that

[01:15:49] was a really painful juncture for us but it did teach me a lot about kind of basics in regards

[01:15:56] to like some of the skills that people need to be successful in an MLM in terms of follow up

[01:16:02] and the hustle and the but ultimately you know what what I have had to come to terms with with both

[01:16:08] that company which I'm going to not mention because I still have family and friends involved in it

[01:16:13] and I you know I don't want to cause more pain but hopefully maybe I'll listen to this and

[01:16:18] reevaluate things I hope but I had to come to terms with the the grossest part and like why I will

[01:16:24] never ever ever join anything like this ever again is that every person you meet is potentially

[01:16:34] a recruit you sit beside somebody on the plane and you're not just casually getting to know them

[01:16:39] you are trying to elicit information about them so that you can sell them a product. So for me with

[01:16:44] next year all the hesitations I had about that and this is what we were then trained to do with

[01:16:49] other people is EM them away from that yucky feeling like if you felt uncomfortable about approaching

[01:16:55] somebody or recruiting somebody was just a fear just something you had to get over and I would

[01:17:00] present that to a coach and then I'd get EM and then we turn you just at EM what's that so an

[01:17:07] EM is when it was basically the therapeutic process that Keith apparently invented which I've

[01:17:12] since learned that he didn't but it's essentially bringing something to a facilitator that you feel

[01:17:18] uncomfortable with could be anything from like you know anytime somebody gives me feedback what an

[01:17:23] EM was designed to do is to overcome an issue. I think that's the congruency with what he's saying

[01:17:28] because and what I've listened to to Douglas say is it always comes back to your fault

[01:17:33] yes I'm not being able to grow it and then EM was basically acknowledgement of you going to someone

[01:17:38] hey it's my issue that I can't do this and their organization was going to help us with that in short

[01:17:44] right there's there's two points there one is with a point that nippy just made which is I see

[01:17:49] that in every MLM it's your you're trained really from the get go they tell you well this business

[01:17:56] is not for everyone and not everyone succeeds and if you don't follow the plan you know you're

[01:18:01] not going to do good and then of course when you do fail you know that it's your fault. It's your

[01:18:07] issue it's not because there aren't enough people on the planet it's not because you can't make

[01:18:12] money retailing it's not because the comp plan is weighted towards the top it's because

[01:18:19] some failing on your part but the other thing that the reason I asked the question to begin with

[01:18:24] is at this term EM this is one of the features of MLMs and I think of calls also it says this whole

[01:18:32] language these these jargon this terminology that's developed so that you become this this little

[01:18:41] insular group where you know only people who are insiders know certain terms and when you first

[01:18:49] join you know you hear people using these terms and you're not even sure what they're talking about

[01:18:54] and you have to be taught what these things are and it's one way of sort of isolating people

[01:19:00] in group versus out of group. Like what you hear do you give a serrating review and subscribe

[01:19:07] on iTunes every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe

[01:19:13] button you know you want to okay everyone that was Dougal's Brooks an attorney and legal advocate

[01:19:21] for people who've been screwed over by MLM schemes be sure to check out the full episode from way

[01:19:26] back in season one of a little bit Coltie he's got some good wisdom in there and be sure to not

[01:19:31] join an MLM okay and maybe even think twice about supporting your friend with that very special product

[01:19:36] that you can only get from her that might not be true and if you have check out a little bit coltie

[01:19:41] calm slash resources for some info on how to get yourself on out of that shit you can do it we've

[01:19:46] been there and we promise you it's gonna be okay more all new episodes of a little bit coltie coming

[01:19:52] your way soon thanks for listening and please stay on coltie okay okay okay the end

[01:20:07] thank you

[01:20:16] thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit coltie now to

[01:20:22] discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for general

[01:20:28] informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real

[01:20:33] medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking

[01:20:39] safely in this coltie world check out a little bit coltie calm slash coltie resources and don't

[01:20:44] miss Sarah's TED talk called how cult literate are you great stuff. A little bit coltie is a trace 120

[01:20:50] production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippie Ames in collaboration with

[01:20:54] producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard

[01:21:00] Jess Temple Tarty our show writer is Holly Zedra and our theme song cultivated is by John Bryant