Bonus Drop: Coercive Control in Cults, Patriarchy in Religion & Survivor Wisdom from Tia Levings

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] Ich bin Charissa und meine Empfehlung an alle Entrepreneure startet mit Shopify erfolgreich durch. Ich verwende Shopify schon seit dem ersten Tag und die Plattform macht mir nie Probleme. Ich habe viele Probleme, aber die Plattform ist nie eins davon. Ich habe das Gefühl, dass Shopify ihre Plattform kontinuierlich optimiert. Alles ist super einfach integrier- und verlinkbar. Und die Zeit und das Geld, das ich dadurch spare, kann ich anderweitig investieren. Vor allem in Wachstum.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_05] Jetzt kostenlos testen auf shopify.de

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_03] Das Podcast ist für informational purposes only und nicht beachtetet legal, medical, oder mental health advice. Die views und opinions expressed do nicht necessarily reflect die official policy oder position of the Podcast und sind nicht intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, oder anything. Ich bin Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_04] Und ich bin Anthony Nippy Ames. Und das ist A Little Bit Culty. Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_04] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult. If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_03] We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_04] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_03] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty. Welcome back everybody to our official second Thursday, A Little Bit Culty bonus drop.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_04] That's what we're calling it?

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03] I think we need a better name for it.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_04] Well, let's take some suggestions.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_03] Open to suggestions from our-

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_04] Suggestions.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03] Suggestions. Ask me anything. It's going to be a mixture of things. Ask me anything.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_04] Updates.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_03] Updates in the cultiverse.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_04] Talk shit.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_03] Talking shit to each other mostly. Honestly.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04] Talking shit on Thursdays.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_03] Talking shit on Thursdays with Sarah Nippy.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, Nippy does have cottage cheese in his teeth as we speak, so I'm going to-

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_04] You're going to lead with that, huh?

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_03] I'm going to lead with that. That's cool. That's the most interesting thing in our household right now. Breaking news. Shelly Snowpordia, our editor, has finished her last pass, which means it's about to go- When I say it, I mean our book. Sorry. A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults Control and Coercion, is in its final state. I'm going to be on the page about to go to the copy editor.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_04] Thank the Lord.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03] Thank the good Lord, baby Jesus. And I'm very excited to say, I think we're really proud of this.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_04] Tanges.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_03] The problem is, is we keep- Yes.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_04] Tanges. Tanges.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03] If you have not been watching Righteous Gemstones, get with the program. Baby Billy Bob Bonkers. Baby Billy Bob Bonkers. The problem is, is that every time we interview a new guest, I'm like, well, we have to include that in the book. This book will never be done. I'm going to cap it. We're capping it now. And then we'll have to do a second edition.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_04] Can I chime in here?

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03] What?

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_04] How about we stop doing that and just go with what we have? And then that'll be the second edition.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_03] That's what I just said.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_04] No. Stop adding.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03] I know. I'm calling it right now.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_04] This is me talking to you through our fans.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03] Thank you. Okay. I know you're all ready. For those of you who've pre-ordered, thank you. It really helps. Let me reiterate. The pre-ordering pays for all the things up front, the title design and the copy editing and the formatting. And we cannot do it without those pre-orders.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_04] We cannot do that without the pre-orders. Thank you for everything. All right. I need to back up over here. I'm sure back up.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_03] So a couple of things about the Cultiverse before we dive into our very, very special guest who I'll share in a minute.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04] But unfortunately, there's updates in the Cultiverse.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_03] There is. And this first thing was brought to us by former guest Sarma Mangalis of Bad Vegan, owner of Pure Fruit and Wine and Dear Friend, whose book is coming out in the fall. We'll be talking about that with her next week. She wrote on her substack, which just launched, basically a response to Bill Maher. What was your thoughts on what Bill Maher said about the P. Diddy trial?

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_04] Well, Bill Maher.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_03] Who we normally like. He's hit or miss?

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_04] He's hit or miss, but so is everyone right now. So it's not like, you know, I think he's fine. I mean, I think he's got a jerk quality that people don't like about him, which I understand. But I still think he gets it right. I don't think he gets it right this time.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03] What did he do?

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_04] Because he continues, or not he, he keeps perpetuating the victim shaming, not understanding why people say no. And new rule, Bill. People who run in P. Diddy circles shouldn't be commenting on how accusers hold their abusers accountable. Okay. New rule.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_03] Back up for a second, because you're talking about an article. I'm not talking about an article.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_04] I'm just talking about how...

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03] What did he do? Because for someone who hasn't been following, basically his statement was what? That women should be... Basically, his statement is in the post-Me Too world, women should take more responsibility and leave when the abuse starts and not keep having...

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_04] Well, the assumption too. There's a lot of assumptions there. It wasn't going on before the Me Too movement with P. Diddy. Number two, it's easy... It was going on. I know it was. The assumption is it's in the new Me Too world. Yeah, he thinks...

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03] As if it just started after Me Too.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, all of a sudden the ecosystem is safe for me to come out and hold...

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_03] A massive mogul.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_04] A massive, powerful person in Hollywood accountable. It's a David and Goliath thing. And how he's not sensitive to that, I don't know.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it's just...

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_04] It's bizarre, because he's balls deep in that world. He rubs elbows in this world. He must know...

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_03] Well, he just doesn't understand coercive control. He doesn't understand that... It's not like, oh, the abuse started. Fuck you, I'm going to leave. But how?

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_04] Wow. Yeah, the abuse is... This is my thing.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03] Coercion happens slowly over time. It's not like on the first date it presents itself. And I'm sure that Sean Combs is excellent at grooming, love bombing, creating dependency, isolating these women away from people that can help them. It's not a, oh, shit, I just got abused. I'm going to peace out and make it an allegation. You'd be squashed.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_04] I'm also sure he's excellent at, hey, what are you going to do about it?

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Instilling fear.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_04] I don't think...

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03] Like Bill Maher, get your fucking shit together. I'm with you. I'm with you. New rule. Bill Maher. Educate yourself. Okay. That's a good impression.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_04] Not really. It's way better.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03] Next time we do these informal drops, we're going to go further into the one taste. We won't today because it's a lot. The one taste trial. We have... There was an article in the New York Times with Maura Penza, former prosecutor against Keith Ranieri, who is just, you know, it's just a bit shocking as to how it's not really... The trial's not going well. Let's put it that way.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And the actual lawyer was one of the defendants that was on Keith's Jennifer Bongine. And they're kind of using the same thing Ignifilo was going to attempt to use with NXIVM in that these are grown adults making grown personal lifestyle choices. And they're going with that angle. And it seems to be kind of having some success because on May 30th, the judge blocked the prosecution star psychologist witness limiting their ability to argue mind control. So they're downplaying really...

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_04] The same with mind control is they're limiting their ability to define coercive control in this case, which is a huge blow to the one taste accountability.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_03] And apparently there was also a witness who was released because her journal was apparently fabricated for the Netflix documentary. It's a shit show, but we have not...

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_04] Well, it just goes to say these things are hard to prove.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_03] Hard to prove.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_04] There's not physical evidence in this trial. There was physical evidence in this trial that could horrify jurors. And then the prosecutors were successful in linking the physical evidence to emotional abuse. So, you know, we were lucky in that regard. But still, it's very hard to put language to emotional abuse, particularly in court of law when they, you know, when language is the tool to, you know what I mean? The tool to hold them accountable, they make it nebulous.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_04] And it's going to be ongoing until, you know, laws can...

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_03] We'll do another episode, I think, on One Taste coming up soon. So hang tight for that. This actual episode for this Thursday bonus drop, new name pending, is with a dear friend whom we love who was actually passing through on a road trip and stayed over for the night. And then we decided just to put together an impromptu podcast for you.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_04] We were having snacks at the table and she's like, this is an episode.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_03] We need to be recording this.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_04] We're like, hells to the yeah. And that person is the first double live, would you say? First person we've done live twice?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03] We did. Yeah. So we did live. Her first episode with us was live. The second was remote. And this is our third with...

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_04] Tia Lovings.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_03] Tia Lovings. So she's... If you're new to this podcast, she's a... I mean, I highly recommend going back and listening to the others, but she's a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and advocate, shining a spotlight on the realities of Christian fundamentalism and religious trauma. She's a survivor of the quiverful Christian patriarchy movement. She escaped an abusive marriage and she now shares her journey of healing and empowerment. Her memoir, which we just adored, is one of my favorite memoirs of all time, actually, I would say.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_03] A Well-Trained Wife, My Escape from Christian Patriarchy, has resonated with readers worldwide and her story was featured in the Amazon docuseries, Shiny Happy People.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_04] Based in North Carolina, Tia is a mom of four, a lover of hiking and painting, and a fierce supporter of fellow survivors. Her upcoming book, The Soul of Healing, A Survivor's Guide to Recovery from Religious Trauma, is available for pre-order now at major retailers. Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, Tia.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_04] Here we are live with Tia Lovings. Welcome, everybody. How did this happen? Is this a Patreon or is this a live feed? What are we doing here?

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. I don't know where this is going to go yet. It might actually go on the main feed on our new bonus drops for Thursdays. It's a lot of time.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_04] Look at me with my...

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_03] It's a spontaneity.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_04] ...on location. Mike.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02] Is that going to sound okay?

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, yeah. No, it looks... It's dope.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02] So we... Tia, how did this happen?

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01] We had a spontaneous conversation last week about new books. Mm-hmm. And I just mentioned I'd be in the area and we were like, yeah, let's get together. And so here we are.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03] And I said, why don't you stay over? Yeah. So we can hang out. Because...

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_04] I don't know if you remember in our podcast two years ago, we were recruiting you to move to Atlanta. You were. It looks like that failed.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02] It failed.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01] Where did you end up? Because it's a steam bath here. That's why.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_04] It is. It is.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01] I ended up in Raleigh. Fair enough. And that's not too far. Fair enough. Yeah. Four seasons. It's beautiful. I get it. Lots of bookstores in Raleigh. I get it. I understand.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02] Isn't that great?

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01] We have been regulating all morning. We took a long walk and we've been outside and we've been working and our conversations feed one another. So it's all good.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_03] It's such a treat. Yeah. It's, you know, it was very spontaneous that you came, as you know. And as soon as you got here last night and we were talking, I was like, my goodness, we need to talk more about all the things that we're going through. I hope you don't feel left out of this conversation, Nip.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_04] I never feel left out of any conversation.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01] It's his, it's the confidence he exudes. He just is where he is.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_04] I can jump in when I want to get in.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01] You just jump in. What works for you?

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_03] Well, the thing is, is I feel with Tia that she and I, you know, we're only a couple years apart. And when I read her book, A Well-Trained Wife, which is also coming out in paperback. Yes. Next February. Amazing. And we, I have an extra.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_04] I'm going to write the sequel, Well-Trained Husband.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02] That'll be so good. You've been waiting for that joke. It's going to be a short one.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_04] It's going to be a short book. Wait for it. Wait for it. It's going to be a pamphlet. Really?

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like you've been waiting for that joke for a long time.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_04] It just came to me. I channeled it just now.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_03] Amazing. But I remember when I read your book, there were so many cultural references that I just, like the music references, the movie references that just put me right back into, well, not right back because it wasn't there, but brought me to you.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I think it's one of the things that makes my story really relatable. And I did that on purpose. It's the cultural references ground you in time and place. And it's generational. So it's relatable for millennials and Gen Xers and anybody that's been in the American South. And so even if you haven't had the same experience, you've had enough parallel to where you can see where we were on the same road for a while. And then just one subtle change. Someone else could have had the same experience I did. It's not fringe. So it's not that hard to imagine.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_04] Right. Remember the musical references again? I remember there were.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01] There were many. Yeah. Fleetwood Mac in my Rebel Times.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_04] It's a staple.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01] And let's see, all the hymns and current events. Like I got really into current music when I was in my rebellious phase, but still married. So it was like seven year period between my daughter's death and my actual escape. And the group that I was involved with, the Trap Door Society, we talked about music. So there's a lot of mentions in there about like the Grammy hits and all the stuff I was listening to in rebellious mode that I would have gotten in big shit trouble for.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03] But also like things like, I'm looking at my notes that I took when I read your book, Bob Ross, Laura Ingalls Wilder. Yeah. Debbie Gibson, Fleetwood Mac. Did I tell you you did a Hallmark movie with Debbie Gibson? No way. Yes. That was really cool.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_04] It's Deborah Gibson. No. No, that's what she goes by, Deborah Gibson.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02] Debbie Gibson. No, she goes by Deborah. No, she switched it. She grew up. Did she?

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_04] Sarah, some people pay attention to the people that they work with and get to know them.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01] Flowers in the attic. Yeah.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_04] That was scary.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01] It is scary, but I think there's like a whole tribe of girls that are like in our dark era because that's what we grew up on. Yeah.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_04] Pat Benatar make it into your...

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_03] Pat's okay. I never really connected.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_04] I'm going through my Pat Benatar kick.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_03] Nibia has a crash on Pat Benatar and I'm a little jealous.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_04] I think she's the coolest chick around.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_03] She's the perfect woman and I'll never compare. I never said that. You don't wear that.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_04] Those are your words. I never said that.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_03] We have Princess Bride, which is probably the movie that I've seen more than any other movie. Jaws, E.T., Grease, like all those disculture references. But I just realized we're jumping in. We know each other. If anyone's newer to our feed, can you just give a little... Like what's your elevator pitch? Yeah, a high level recap.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01] So A Well-Trained Wife is my story of how I got in and then out of a high control Christian fundamentalist cult. I grew up Southern Baptist in a megachurch and then married who God said was the man for me. I knew that because he said it and you don't argue with men. My megachurch was the second largest in America in the 80s and 90s. And so it was very like Hobby Lobby Christianity, very modern, mainstream. And as I grew up, we became more nationalist and fundamentalist.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01] So after I got married, I got involved with Bill Gothard's IBLP, Institute of Basic Life Principles. People might be familiar with that because Sightshiny Happy People on Amazon. I was in that documentary a couple years ago and we became Calvinist. And at the end of the line, I ended up in a wife spanking cult that is Doug Wilson's denomination. That is also in the news today because they are forming a church in Washington, D.C. because

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01] Pete Hegseth is a member of that denomination.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_04] Pete Hegseth is a member of that?

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And so it's all, everything I ran from is in our headlines today. It's all very up close and personal. This is a memoir that will help you understand the Christian fundamentalist influences in America. It will help you understand what it's like to live, Project 2025. It'll make sense of a lot of the news headlines that you know there's some religion in there somewhere, but you don't really understand how and why. And it's also the story of how I escaped very viscally at midnight in 2007 with my kids and

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01] put my life back together. So there's the back half of the, back 25% of the book is trauma healing and how I regained my life.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_03] That is such a good recap. And also just for people who don't know, when you say wife spanking, this is not a BDSM thing. This is...

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01] Non-consensual wife discipline.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Like kids are bad, they get a spanking. Wives are bad, they get a spanking.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02] Does Pete, what's his face, spank his wife? I don't know.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01] They don't overtly talk about this in public. But it's part of that denomination. It is. Yeah. On the low down. When they say women should be submissive, they don't tell you what they do to make the wife submit. What happens if she won't?

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_04] The husband spanks the wife?

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Just like a child.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03] Like over his knee.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_04] And not for fun. Not for fun.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03] That's what I just clarified. Not BDSM. Like you're in, like I'm in trouble. You're going to spank me to be submissive.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01] Or put you in timeout. Or make you write sentences and scriptures. Or deny your car rights for the week. And there's all kinds of punishments involved.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_04] The things I do to you jokingly.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01] Jokingly? Yeah. That she could push back against because she has that kind of agency.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04] But they're saying it seriously. They're saying it seriously.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03] I'm like, I'm going to go to yoga now. And if he goes, I forbid. And he's joking.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01] Well, you wouldn't do yoga because that's of the devil. Oh, right. Yeah.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_07] Things like that.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Wait a minute. I got the devil on my side on this one? You got the devil on your side. You like pretty much are the devil. I'm basically a Satanist. You're giving me some bullets over here. Women are of Satan in this tradition. So like everything's a female temptation. Oh, Jesus. Out to ruin the big, mighty man.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_03] What does it say? That my leg is halfway out of my skirt. Oh, my God. You're scandalous hassy. I'm a Jezebel four.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_04] I'm down with that. You told that Jezebel story, didn't you?

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. You told it so many times in this podcast. He called a friend of ours whose daughter's name is Jezebel. Oh, no. Jezebel. Their child? Yeah. But I didn't know the reference. And they're not even religious.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_04] I didn't even know what the Jezebel reference was at the time.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01] He knows now. Oh, you know now.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So the justification, the theological justification for that behavior is that they believe in federalist marriage, which teaches that the man is going to stand before God and account for everything that happens in his household, including what his wife thinks and does. So the stakes are really high to make her obey.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_04] Can we just grow up? Yeah.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01] Right? It also makes marriage really hard because he doesn't have a partner anymore. It's not marriage. The man doesn't have an equal partner. He doesn't have a... Even their word for it is help me. He doesn't even have that. What he has is another child who's dependent on him. And it's the whole like daddy-father patriarchy.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01] And we see it a lot in the trad wife movement today, which is the same thing that I was part of. We just called it different.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_04] All that right-wing stuff loses me. Even if they have a good point, they go, well, God. And I'm like, okay.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Well, some of their points make sense when you're speaking about it. The actual manifestation of it isn't so pretty or so fruitful. Also to say that it came from God.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_04] Well, also it's formed by an ideology, right? Right. So it's like, it makes me go, your point is somewhat moot because you're... Or all moot. Well, if he really believes it, but I don't think they really believe that. I think they're leveraging religion.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01] For power. For power. Yeah, exactly. And some of them try really hard to believe it. I mean, the top-down power structure makes a certain amount of sense and it seems efficient. If it's just easier, if she'll just get in line and do what he says. But he doesn't always know which way they should go. I mean, the pressure it puts on men is not fair either. So it's not a healthy model. It doesn't produce good fruit. It produces a survivor movement. And so I say like 10, 15 years from now, we're really going to see this explode because

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01] the trad babies today are going to have their say when they escape from their situations. Right, right, right. And many of them will. Yeah. Ballerina Farms kids, they're real silent right now because they're real controlled, but they're going to have a say 10 years from now.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_03] It never works. I think we spoke briefly about it when you came on for the second time, but what's your take on the glorification of that? Like people kind of getting caught up in the aesthetic of it all.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01] The aesthetic is the soft sell. It helps us get women in their cages voluntarily. They have two ways of making this happen. And they can legislate it with a big, heavy, firm hand, which right now gets them a lot of pushback. Or they can sweeten the deal. And they always bring in women to control other women. So you're going to have women showing you, oh, this is a better way to live. It's very simple, very beautiful. And it's meant to lull you and dull your senses and bring you in and give away your power voluntarily. So that's what it accomplishes.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01] And it's also a big, dishonest movement because the women who are actually selling it online have way more agency and power than the actual women who are at home trying to replicate it without the same platform or power.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03] Interesting. That's such a good point. That's what DOS was. Speak more to that.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_04] Women soft selling other women.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, every cult does it. Yeah. Oh, that part of it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's one of the things that, to your point in your new book that I'm so excited about, you have a pattern, a template that they sort of, what do you call it? A playbook. That all cults follow. And yeah, it doesn't have to have God in it. It's control.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03] And many of them do, even if they call them Vanguard, it's still a God-like feature or figure who has all the control.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And all the answers.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And where does your new, what can you say about your new book in terms of like what you're learning now and what you've learned since writing A Well-Trained Wife?

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. The new book is a very organic birth. I'm very excited about it. It's called A Soul of Healing, A Survivor's Guide to Recovery After Religious Trauma. I'm a lay person. I'm somebody who just did the thing. People hear my story and they put it together with the person that I am today, speaking to you clearly. When I left, I couldn't even order pizza. I stuttered so badly and I was in so much trauma. And I put my life back together and I healed. And so they always want to know like, how did you do that?

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01] So The Soul of Healing is the journey of how I did it, but it's a self-help book. It kind of goes over everything that I encountered through the healing process, what my success and failure was, what I learned from it or what I would do differently, what I wish I knew. It's kind of like a big sister coffee chat, which is my energy is like, we are fellows in this. A lot of us come from cult backgrounds. They don't have to be exactly the same for us to understand the same shorthand, which makes a friendship like this so great because we just kind of kind of cut to the chase and fall into the same flow.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01] And that's really what A Soul of Healing is. It comes out next May in 2026. That's awesome. And I'm stoked. Congrats.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03] You see why this is so good for me to have Tia here?

[00:23:40] Yeah. Yeah.

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[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_03] You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_04] I'm going to ask a couple of questions because it relates to what my knowledge base kind of knows. Are these groups affiliated with any of the groups that were putting warning labels on science, biology books, and advocating for creationism in classrooms and saying that there's...

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_04] That's the... These are the...

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01] They're all like little fingers of the same hand. So we've got like the anti-vax movement, what I would say is a finger. You've got a lot of science paranoia in religion. So they've been at that for a long time.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_07] Right.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01] I grew up believing in a six-day literal creation. Everything that had to do with evolution or science or research or labs or hypothesis, and all of that was vilified. So those are the same people. Then you've got the book banners who are like taking away books and access to information. They want to shut down information as much as they can because it sets people free. Like I am here because of people on the internet connected with me behind the scenes, and I had a way, an avenue to get out. But I wouldn't have had that without the internet. I'd be dead.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_04] Where would you say ground zero for this is?

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01] Several large organizations. Which ones? There's a Catholic organization called Opus Dei. That's the Catholic end. And then there's the Heritage Foundation with the American Protestants. Doug Wilson, I mentioned before, is one piece of that. He's based in Idaho. There's also Bill Gothard who recruited within churches. So it's like a cannibalistic movement to make churches more fundamentalist over the past 30 years. They've played a very long game. And they're in all of government.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01] Mike Johnson is an IBLP product. So they bonded together to reach this kind of Christian nationalist power. They connected. But they are going to infight because they all... That was my next question. Yeah, they all represent different pieces of this fundamentalism and theology. So they want this right wing, this strength, this authoritarianist strength because they're all dominionists. They believe in taking dominion of the world. But they're kind of dominion.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01] And they don't agree that each other's Christians. American Protestants in the theological movement here do not believe that Catholics are Christians. But they'll vote together in order to get a Republican president in it. And then they'll fight over who's going to have the ultimate say. Interesting.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_04] Is there a voice of reason that is the antithesis to them in their domains?

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01] I love this because we are there. So knowing their methods and their voices and their discrepancies, it's interesting to watch. For example, the press secretary, Catherine Levitt, she did the training videos for Project 2025. And she's heavily involved in the product of that kind of fundamentalism.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01] And it seems like a misnomer that she would be allowed to have a job in the public sector speaking for the president and a newborn at home. There's no way that Mike Johnson's kind of theocracy likes that. But he has to put up with it because it helps other women believe that this establishment is for women. They have certain women in place that makes it seem like, oh, we're so feminist. Look at all the women we have. We have a woman chief of staff. We have Paula White.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01] None of the Baptists who think that it's wrong for women to preach are okay with Paula White. But they all tolerate Paula White for the perception for now. So the voice of reason that you were asking about is actually somebody like Pope Leo. It was a big deal that Leo was chosen, that he's progressive, that he's tolerant of women's issues. He's not going to like totally crash through the Catholic church and make it truly progressive. But he's not going to go opus de conservative either.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01] And so also the other leaders of the globe that are choosing against right-wing extremism, they are also a voice of reason.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_04] So one of the things – we interviewed Mike Reinder of Scientology. He died recently. And I asked him, how is it in California, which is a progressive state, air quotes because it's debatable right now. Why is Scientology protected by – why are they protecting the perpetrator legally there? And he said, which I thought was a really good answer.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_04] It's like it's going to take someone to politicize it and run on the notion that I'm here to get rid of Scientology and abuses of power and how they've corrupted our system. Is there someone that you see potentially – and this is as political as we get in our podcast – on the Democratic Party that would go, hey, this is a major problem. Why isn't someone picking up the torch and going, hey, these groups are – maybe there is – are infiltrating our government with this ideology?

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_04] Why can't they run against it? Or are they organized enough now to do it?

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01] Nobody political comes to mind. It doesn't mean that they don't exist. Right. But I don't see a frontrunner of any kind outing this. This is survivors educating online. There's a lot of people online talking about it that we've – like me, that have come from this and can translate it and can say this is where the Seven Mountains mandate is, for example.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_07] What's that?

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01] Seven Mountains mandate is fundamentalists taking over the seven spheres of public access and education. So, like, there's an education mountain, an entertainment mountain. It's why the Kennedy Center was chosen, for example, or why there would be tariffs against Hollywood. They want to have Christian education and Christian entertainment in place of Hollywood. They want to have it in the government. So there's seven of them. You can Google Seven Mountains mandate. It's been in place for a long time.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01] But it's basically how fundamentalists can enter every single sector and take back over what they think they've lost. Politically, there's nobody that's really outing that because they have to ride the line between the not all Christians thing. You know, like this is not just a Jesus tradition or even a religious tradition. It's an extreme that's been allowed to manifest and take power. And so it's real dicey for a politician to come out and say that.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, then they risk alienating an entire demographic because they'll have words crammed down their throat and they'll say. And it's kind of what's going on in Europe with Islam right now. It's like not all Islam people are bad.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01] That's a trap. It's better if survivors talk about it and teach people what to look for and then let them make their decisions accordingly.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_04] I don't want this to be my fight where I've got to deal with some fundamentalist coming after my kid. Right. That's the only reason I care about any of this stuff. I'm protecting my kids.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01] But glad you're not raising daughters. I mean, you're in Georgia. And Georgia's not a great place to be a woman with a uterus right now. Right now, there's a woman who's plugged up to life support. She's brain dead. And because of fundamentalism in our laws, she's incubating a dying child and nobody will pull it. Her family doesn't want her on this support. But that is an example. There's legislation. I did not know this. Yes. So this is how it works.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01] They go after one little law at a time. So Ro fell. Then they said that they were going to make, they did all these heartbeat laws. Somehow fetuses have embryos. Embryos are supposed to have a heartbeat without a heart. They've convinced everybody that this is how this works, that this electrical impulse at like six to eight weeks is a heartbeat. So the heartbeat laws kind of went through the country in the red states, and Georgia has one of them. And so you're not allowed to get an abortion.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01] You're not allowed to terminate that pregnancy unless you're saving a woman's life. Well, the woman's dead. So now what do you do? You're not allowed. You're in a catch-22. And they create these catch-22s because they're creating precedents. And it doesn't matter that she's a human life and that her family wants her unplugged and that she's been brain dead for weeks now. But this is how we find ourselves. This is a baby growing inside of her.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, but it has no brain. Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Okay.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01] It's not going to survive.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_04] So are they cutting their nose off to spite their face for these policies? Why would they do it?

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01] They do it ultimately. Ultimately, the real reason is because they want- Power. This is going to sound very macabre and very crazy. Okay? So I'm going to caveat. Everybody take a deep breath. Okay. Yeah. We'll teach it.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_03] We're here to learn. We want to learn from you.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01] The real reason is because they don't want a big population of people who are not prime. They want prime genes, big families, lots of birth rate. Yeah. But they're okay with an early death rate. They're okay with you dying after your purpose is gone. And we see this in patriarchy all the time. They consume the people that they've taught to serve selflessly. You die to self. You serve. You give. You die. Your whole focus is on eternity. Your world, you know, this home is not your own. So it doesn't really matter if you die.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01] And then they don't have to pay for your Medicaid. They don't have to pay for your retirement. They don't have old people around. They don't have people who have disabilities around. They've simplified society so that only the best workers are born, serve, and die. So this is just an example. They do need human incubation. So here we go. This is a test. Wow. Wow. It's dark. It is dark. And it's, they're all complicated.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_04] Nothing shocks me anymore.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01] No, nothing should.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_04] Nothing shocks me anymore.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01] But it really, this is why we need to be informed because we get to still vote. Like that's, as a woman who wasn't allowed to vote in patriarchy, and I know that that's the next thing that's coming. The SAVE Act did die in the Senate, but it passed in the House and it disenfranchises women voters. So that's coming. To my point, we can still vote, but they don't word our laws this way. Like, do you think a woman should be kept alive, you know, to incubate a fetus? They word it differently. Of course. And so we have to know.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_04] It's a Trojan horse.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, exactly. Education matters.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_03] Where's the best place for people to educate themselves? Like you said online, like, can you give us some resources?

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I like to promote other survivors. I think firsthand accounts of what this is, is always the best place to go. That's where you'll get the most visceral explanation of what it's really like to live someone's ideology, because that's what they present us, ideas. And fundamentalism always values ideas over people. So if you want to flip that and value people over ideas, you have to listen to the people who actually lived that and find out, well, is that really what I want for my country?

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01] Is that really what I want for my children? Our future? Sure. Something that's true about Christian patriarchy is it's all past-driven, and so is MAGA. It's very past-driven, looking behind, making America great again from something that it was in the past. Listening to people who actually lived that is one half of that, and the other half of that is, is that what you agree with? Do you want, do you believe in humanity that's going to keep evolving and advancing and we're going to get better as a race?

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01] Or do you believe that we need to go back to what we already know? We've all been, like we were pilgrims before. We were 50s housewives before. We know what it was like for brown people in the 50s. You know, like we have evidence we can rely on. So I always say, look for other survivors. Look for memoirs. Look for educators like yourselves. Like all of these cult education podcasts and things have long lists of guests, you know, and you can follow those.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01] And then other than that, I'm hesitant with actual names because I have ADHD and they slip out of my head. No, I also think it's a great... I'm the same way. I can't pull out any of it.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_04] It's a great way for people to have a visceral experience of someone else's story.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it's empathetic. Walk a mile in their shoes. Find out if that's really, you know, good.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_04] You know, I had an experience probably six months ago where I was sharing something and the person said, well, that's just anecdotal. And I just almost jumped out of my skin when they said it. How dehumanizing. And I was just like, but I also recognized...

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_03] And it was our personal anecdote. Like, I think that because this happened to me.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And I just, it was a confession on their part for me. I clocked it and just put it in my back pocket. I was like, okay, I'm just going to remember that. Because I knew I wasn't going... I'm careful of getting into conversations where you're trying to win an argument as opposed to solve a problem.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_07] Yeah.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_04] And if I could go back to my former self and say, there's a handful of conversations where I've done the former.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. One of my recovery tips is don't argue with people that are determined to misunderstand you. Don't waste your life points. You're not going to change their mind. Right.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04] Exactly.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04] And it just seemed like a bad use of my energy. And I just kind of clocked it and I was like, okay.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I wonder how many anecdotes that person needs in order to believe it's a real thing. Yeah.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01] Like, what's your number? How many is too many? That's such a good tip.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_04] Well, also, I think too, like, I've been discredited to them because I was in a cult.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_07] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, those people are great. So I remember having a conversation with someone and being like, well, yeah, you would think that because you were in a cult. Because you were in a cult. And I'd be like, well, maybe I can see it because I was in a cult.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01] Or maybe they don't realize the cult they're in.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Because that's a blind spot. Yeah. And I think that is more of what it was. And then I go, well, how am I not reaching people?

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And?

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01] Cult arrogance is, it's something. I try not to let it bother me because there's that whole, it was hard to start talking in the first place. Yes. Because I thought people would think poorly of me for getting into this. And it's one of the reasons why a well-trained wife was so important to me to start early and show how I was groomed to accept nothing else but the things that I accepted. Mm-hmm. They were not choices. I did not have choices. I did not have agency.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01] And I was prepared to make those movements. And I did because I was a good person who was trying to please God and trying to be obedient and all the things. And any fight I had against that was shamed out of me. So we are all, we've all been there in some capacity. It's just how much people are willing to see.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_04] For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir. It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife. And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culti sponsors. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_05] Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culti. It's a good one.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03] That's totally why I appreciate this friendship, because even though our cults were very different, I totally, when I read your book, I was like, we're, this, the process is the absolute same. And I would never be the person, because of my experience, to be like, why didn't you just leave? We're like, why didn't you choose somebody you liked? But let's suppose to that Alan guy.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not going to ask stupid questions, because I fucking get it. Yeah. I totally get it. Those are not even options. No. Somebody I liked. That's so funny. Yeah.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_04] What's the fear that holds that whole thing in place?

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01] Well, they set it up with hell really early. I was four years old when I first prayed the first time, dear Jesus, forgive me for my sins. I was terrified to go to hell.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_04] So original sin.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. A lake of fire. Your lies put Jesus on the cross. And they had shown us, like, really graphic crucifixion images that they just thought were normal. I mean, it's pretty, we just came through Easter, so I guess got a fresh onslaught of this. Like, they're making sugar cookies with raspberry jam nail holes and passing them out to kids. Like, that's disgusting. Jesus died on a cross because crucifixion was the method of execution of the day. And America has a fetish with crosses. And it's everywhere.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01] And so they don't even think about, what is it like to be a little child and see a bloody punctured hand? I mean, little children are afraid their finger bleeds. They start to cry because that's their blood they're seeing, you know? And then we put them through that kind of early religious trauma. It shapes you pretty fast.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_04] It is religious trauma.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01] It is religious trauma.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03] And then we all have our own version of that. Like, even in the next image, obviously not a religion, but there is a theoretical hell if you leave. Sure. Right?

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_04] Sure. Also, we touched on this a little bit. Religion can be a cool thing if it's personal, I think. And they bastardize something that you could go on a journey of... I mean, it's all attempting to answer the questions, right? The dogma takes over.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01] And I really just boiled it down to what's more important in this moment. Is it the idea that it's ideological purity that I have to sustain? Or is my humanity allowed to come in? And if it's people before ideas, I'm safe. If it's ideas before people, it's not for me. Right.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_03] We had... Do you remember... I like that. Me too. People before ideas. Jessica Willis Fisher. Yeah. Unspeakable. Yes. She just has a new album out, too. Yes. Plug that. We got to see her when we were in Nashville over spring break. And I was telling her about the book and how hard it is to define a cult and trying to lay it all out. And she said something. I think we have to remember to put this in the book now.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_07] Right now? Not now. After the podcast. Yeah.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03] That her thing is, when you look at the belief system, if you have a belief system and you're teaching your kids, what happens if the children grow up and don't retain the belief system and don't want to be a part of that anymore? Are they still your children? Do you disown them? Do you shun them? Are they welcome at your house for Thanksgiving? I think that's such a great determining factor. It really is. What a litmus is that. Right?

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, my gosh.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_03] And it makes me think, obviously, we're not in a cult anymore, but we're extreme with some things. We're very anti-sugar, for example, in this house.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_04] I'm sorry. I do get a little bit dogmatic.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01] It gets a little bit fascist about it.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_04] About a year ago.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01] I can say, I can push back a little and say, if that's a problem for you, you've done a good job of working on it because you offered me dessert. Your children had choices. You are definitely...

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_04] You're not purists. It's the candy with the dye in it. And about a year ago, Sarah's like, you don't want to be a dictator about it. And Troy goes, yeah, dad. You put the dick in dictator.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01] And I was like, shit.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, when they shun it, they give it back to you.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_04] I was like, damn. Something's working.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02] It's not what I'm... Maybe you had to own that because it was true. Yeah.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_03] Critical thought for the win. Yeah. Which is also a whole other... We could do a whole other episode on trying to find the line between having them be respectful, but also I don't want them to be obedient. Right. Just to be obedient because I don't want them to...

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01] It's a fluid line. Yeah. You know, it ebbs and flows and he's getting ready to go into puberty. And, you know, you got so many changes ahead. Oh, yeah. It's all gray area, but that's really healthy. Gray area is great. Just always have hard conversations while he's eating. That's my number one parenting tip with boys. If you know you're going to have to talk about something difficult, feed them first.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_06] Okay.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01] Or take them to Whataburger where they can't really argue because you're in public and they're also eating calories while you talk. It's very true.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02] Is it because they're distracted or because they need the calories? They need the calories.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_04] Also, food is a stimulant too. Yeah. It's like, yeah.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02] That's such good advice.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01] And they feel safe. They know they're being loved. They're not in trouble. Like it really shows and underscores that, yeah, this is okay. We can talk about this hard thing. This is really good advice. It's my favorite. Also, the other thing is in the car. I do all the hard stuff in the car because they'll talk. The silent kid will unlock in the car.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02] I actually do that with Nippy. I go on road trips with him so we can have conversations.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_03] And they're the best, right? Because he can't get on his phone. Yeah. Normally, he's like in his phone. I'm like, what if he...

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_04] No, I'm never in my phone. Okay.

[00:43:54] Fine.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_04] I look like you're talking to me.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03] I was so happy to have to. We, we, you missed it, Nippy. We went for a walk this morning and we were regulating in nature and like, you know, forest bathing and sharing all of our routines.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_04] Forest bathing? Yes.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_03] Forest bathing. And we're sharing all our... Nippy, listen, how we... I just, you know... How you deal with trauma as he goes to work out really hard. How... Well, that's somatic. It's somatic. That's powerful.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01] You're purging all those stress hormones. Yeah.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_03] It's legit. It's totally legit. Tia and I have our own thing going on over here.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01] And we're kind of both and because we both work out. Yeah, this too. Yeah.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02] We get forest bathing and workout, Nippy.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_04] I can do... Nature's my gym.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, yeah.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_04] Nature's my gym. Yeah. That's a good way.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01] You're... You still want to be strong and inoculize yourself from cult hopping or falling for it. Again, like that whole vulnerability of why did I fall for this in the first place amps when you fall for it a second time. Yes. Or when you repeat the patterns and you're attracting the same energy and you're still dealing with the fallout in your body from the neuroception of a traumatized nervous system that's like jumpy and flickery.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01] And in that forest bathing walk, I had almost a panic attack in the middle of it because I realized I didn't have my phone. And I had had my phone in sight or know exactly where it is since 2007. And that was the first time I legitimately didn't know where it was. It could have been on the trail because we were at the halfway point in the jungle at that point. The jungle of Buckhead. And we had to go through like all the steps. But we had... We had steps.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_01] We had done enough work to know what you need to do in a time when you're triggered, when you're on the verge of panic, how to regulate, what we could do like if it was lost. What did you do? Walk us through it. So we stood still. Yeah. We articulated all the safety. Yeah. I had my hand on my chest. I was looking at the water in the trees. I was reminding myself that I'm safe, that you had your phone. Yes. You offered me your phone like every time I need to like take a picture, it's here available.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_01] We're also in the middle of a city, so I'm like not going to need to call 911 like out in the boonie sticks, you know. And I just needed to really remind younger me that this is not that and it's actually okay to put my phone down. I really do want to get to a place where I can leave it in another room or maybe not know where it is because my life is so safe that my nervous system believes it. And I've made a lot of progress in actually being safe and actually having a life of peace,

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01] but there are still parts of me that are like always at the ready. And a lot of that has to do with the world we're in right now. Like we do have to be in the ready. It's legit. It's not a imagined fear or risk. It's the real thing. So I say that because I still have goals. You know, this is 14 years out and I've done a lot of work, but I still have healing goals that I'm trying to figure out.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_03] I love that. And I wanted to piggyback on that goal. Yeah. And I love that you put it legit in this podcast so it's like a moment in time that we can reflect back on. Like look how far you've come and hopefully next time even, well, maybe I'll leave my phone in the car too.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe we'll do some gentle exposure therapy or by like May when I come on before the book, maybe I'll have it made progress.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Well, healing is not just a waving. It's not a wand.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, I'm playing with a wand in my hands right now. But no, it's not a magic wand and it's not static.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_03] Do you know why you were drawn to that, do you think?

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02] The wand? It's a green one with like crystals and stars and sparkles. And water and bubbles. In a glass. I don't know. I just had to pick it up. I saw it and I was like, I need that right now.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03] You really do. So I didn't think I was going to cry in this episode.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_04] I did.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_03] That is one of my most favorite treasures. That is? Yes. It was Madeline's who's the woman in the middle of that sunglass picture between my sister-in-law Steph. Yeah. That's my dad's love of his life. My stepmom-ish. They didn't, well, they got married the day before she passed. Oh my. On her deathbed. And she passed last January and she did a therapy called Sand Tray Therapy based on Virginia Satir's work.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_03] And part of it was to put these figurines in Sand and then you set up a scene and then you wave the wand and you change. It's a type of therapy that she did. And so all of the kids got to take home one of her wands. So I kept mine here. Madeline? Madeline. Yeah. Well, I think she's here with us.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02] I think so. That's wonderful. I've been waiting to tell you that.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01] The dime you picked up. Yeah.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. She picked up a dime on our walk. You don't know what that means, Nipi.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I'm going to sit this one out.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01] I love the freedom to be expansive and to welcome that into my life without labeling it anything.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I agree. It just is something beautiful. It is. And I know that there's going to be at least one person with all Sarah still in a cult because she believes in spirits. Oh, bull. And I'm like, well, you know.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01] Belief in spirits is not actually a cult criteria.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02] You're right.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_01] You're right.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02] It's not. It's not.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01] It's not. Now changing your life and making all of your decisions because the magic spirit told you to, that's different. Yes, exactly.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_03] Or joining a group that believes in spirits and making it all-encompassing and devoting your life to it and cutting off your family who doesn't believe in spirits. Because the magic spirit told you to.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's always that authority step. What are you thinking of me?

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_04] I can see you doing that.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_02] What?

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_03] How dare you? How dare you? Well, I'm glad that you found it. I'm so glad that you called and asked to get together and that you could stay and we could have this time together. It's such a treat. Magic. Magic.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02] Really magic. Yeah. Thank you, Tia. Thank you for this.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you for being spontaneous.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_04] That was a great update.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02] That was a really good update.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_04] I learned.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02] I learned, too. I learned, too. This is the best.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_04] Learning is good.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02] We're crushing it. We're winning over here. All we do is win, win, win.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that's like, yeah. Is that going to, um, like, do you have to pay for that? I don't think so. Okay.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_03] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty? Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're a little bit susceptible. Just share the love. Thanks. Well, everybody, that was our fabulous conversation with Tia. Please let us know what you thought of it. Let us know what you think these Thursday bonus drops should be called. And...

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_04] Tia's the bomb.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_03] She really is. Tia, thank you for that fabulous conversation, both recorded and not recorded. We love you. We appreciate you. And we'll see you all next Monday.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_05] Word. Deuces.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_03] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames, in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios. And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. We'll see you next Monday.