Born and Razed in a Cult: Beth Granger on Surviving Grenville Christian College (Part 2)

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[00:00:27] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:56] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cult's are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way. For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material.

[00:01:25] And who knows? You could already be in a cult. If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out. We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself. Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:09] Welcome back, everybody. This is part two with Beth Granger. If you didn't listen to the first one, put it in reverse because this one will not make sense to you. Enjoy. Okay, so your book title implies that there was challenges.

[00:02:39] Even though you left the cult, it was harder in the aftermath. Yeah. I mean, when I wrote the book, I wanted to write a book that I needed when I left, if that makes sense. Because, you know, many books, you know, they get out and hooray, but it's so difficult in the aftermath. And I really feel it's a journey of a lifetime to recover.

[00:03:04] And so I tried to express that in the book and write the long and winding story of recovery, attempts at recovery, if you will. I'm not there yet. But yeah. Well, just wanted to ask. Yeah. When did you make the cult connection? Oh, yeah. I left in 2001 and the school closed in 2007 due to bankruptcy. And that was the year that I made the connection.

[00:03:33] Prior to that, I actually had met a man and married him in 2003. And he was a police officer in Ottawa. And he had mentioned to some of his buddies that he was dating me and where I was from. And they told him, oh, Grenville Christian College? That's a cult. And he's so he's, you know, what? And he asked me about it.

[00:03:57] And I just brushed it off and said, oh, well, that's just people being, you know, bitter and exaggerating. I really didn't see it. But I started prior to the school closing, I started having personal issues that forced me to seek therapy. And well, the issue was my eating disorder.

[00:04:20] And so I was just in 2006, I had finally gotten diagnosed with PTSD and bulimia. And I was just starting to understand that there's a lot to my past that was affecting me.

[00:04:35] And then when the school closed and all the allegations exploded, what happened was people found this website called FactNet, which was it's closed now because Scientology bought it and then shut it down. But it was a way for people to connect about their cult abuse. And everybody on there was anonymous. And then you could go in there and you could look for the cult that you were part of and then start posting.

[00:05:04] And that summer, thousands and thousands of posts were made by Grenville Christian survivors of Grenville. And people just connected like a swarm, if you will. And I was I happened to be on maternity leave that year. So I had a little time to start looking through the posts and I was blown away and my eyes were opened.

[00:05:30] And I started realizing this is I did not understand that students were damaged. Like I was starting to understand that I had been damaged. But now I could see that they some students were there for just a few months and they are still trying to heal. And my eyes just like I keep saying my eyes were open. But that's what it was. It was a massive aha moment.

[00:05:54] And I started then looking into what a cult really is and finding out, you know, about cults and read the book by Stephen Hassan. Combating Mind Control, I think it is called Mind Control. And every single criteria that he mentioned was like check, check, check, check.

[00:06:11] And, you know, and then when the school started backpedaling and then the leader of the last headmaster went on record in the Globe and Mail saying that there were no allegations, no truth to the allegations. I saw red and I decided I've got to do something along with some other people who also felt the same way. But, yeah, that's how I came to understand it, that it was a cult. Wow. And that was a 16 year process, the lawsuit.

[00:06:41] Yes, the lawsuit. Yes, we started in 2007. And actually, 2024 was the year we just last October, we had a deadline to get our claims in for compensation. So, yeah, it was that long. Wow. Did you get compensation in the end? Yes. So we were battling insurance companies. Grenville didn't have much money at the end.

[00:07:07] And in fact, they sold the entire complex for very little, basically, probably to, I'm guessing so that we wouldn't get anything. Do you know what I mean? But there were insurance companies involved, and they were the ones battling throughout the whole lawsuit on behalf of the headmasters. And I know that many times I've heard people say that it wasn't for the money. It was for the principle of holding these, I can't think of the appropriate. Abusers?

[00:07:35] No, I want to say something meaner than that, like more, you know, fuckers. Yeah. Accountable. Do you feel justice has been served? Yes, I do. I, looking back, I mean, I've got, you know, this mixed feelings, because it was incredibly difficult to go through. But I'll never regret that we went forward and we pursued justice, because our story, number one, was heard, it was validated.

[00:08:04] That is such a massive part of our healing. And it has helped so many students who just were lost and didn't understand what was wrong with them after having been broken by the school. And like you said, I didn't go into it for the money. I knew that if, first of all, I knew I needed to do it for my own healing.

[00:08:29] I was, I just had the sense that it was going to be really difficult, but it was going to force me to heal in some way, you know. And then I hoped that we'd be heard and that we would get far enough so that at least the school would have to, the school leaders would have to pay attention to what it was that we were claiming.

[00:08:50] And I never knew that we would be the very first in Canada to get to trial in a historical abuse case and that we would win. So like, it was like, we did set precedent. And that is like, not only was justice served, but we set precedent so that other historical abuse cases are following our lead. And I'm really proud that we. That's amazing. That's great.

[00:09:14] We accomplished that, you know, and, and like I said, it was really hard, but I do feel justice was served and our 75 page ruling by the first, like, so we went to trial in 2019. And then we got this ruling six months later, that ruling is just worth its weight in gold. Like, I mean, it is so validating. And then we had to go through the appeal process for two years. And then we got another ruling, which agreed with us.

[00:09:42] So we have this sense that, you know, we're not making this up, you know, this was so damaging. And many lies were broken. Yeah. Especially for somebody who'd been, you had to be submissive. The only way to survive was to submit. What was it like to, to hear a person in the position of authority to, to write a ruling in your favor in that way? And to be on your side. I mean, I'm still trying to take it in. It's been years.

[00:10:12] Like, I'm just, it, it's really hard to put into words. It's just so, so incredibly validating. Like, I still question it. Like, going back to being, growing up there, I normalized it so much. All the abuse that even writing this book, anytime someone reads it, I think, oh, they're going to be bored. Oh, I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill. None of this was that bad, you know?

[00:10:39] No, but when you read her ruling, which is just so great and so strong and so clear that we were egregiously abused and that we deserved compensation and we deserved, anyway, I don't know. It's really hard to put into words, but I hope I've. Maybe we could, if you can send me a link to it, we could put that in our show notes. Yeah. That would be good to read. It's great. It's great.

[00:11:05] And yeah, I remember we read it the night we got the ruling. I read it with my friend Jacqueline and my other friend Lisa, who is also a representative plaintiff, and we just took turns reading on the phone and just crying and like jumping up and down and like, yeah, so. So how was facing your abusers in court and how that helped you with your trauma? The worst abusers didn't show up because either three of them were dead by that time.

[00:11:35] And, but the son of Charles Farnsworth was there. And, I mean, I just said to myself, I need a journal and I'm going to take notes. And I wrote all kinds of, like, I just, I was upset listening to him because he defended the school in such a way that, well, let's just say, I don't think he remembered. He took the oath of, you know, telling the truth.

[00:12:04] And I got really upset and I, and I just started writing and writing down anything he said that made me angry. I wrote it down and then I wrote in the margins. But I think that also spurred me on to just keep going because one of the things that chaps my ass is leaders who lie to cover their butts and that keeps happening.

[00:12:27] And, yeah, I saw one of the mothers in a televised interview saying that children were never separated from their parents and they were never interrogated for their sins. And I just nearly fell off my chair because they're willing to lie to cover their butts. But, you know, look what happened to us whenever we didn't even, you know, we were sinning in our mind and we'd get in trouble.

[00:12:55] So do you ever have fantasy dreams where you get to tell them off? Absolutely. I've actually been dreaming and nightmares for ever since I left. But my dreams have on occasion lately become that like where I'm going back and I'm not necessarily as strong as I want to be, but I'm definitely like questioning and and yelling sometimes just yelling my truth. And it's really it's a nice change from the nightmares.

[00:13:28] Hey, Calti listeners, as you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together. And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us. That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self Publishing Agency or TSPA. Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out, the Self Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline. You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world.

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[00:14:22] That's the S E L F publishing agency dot com to start your very own publishing journey today. Enjoy. This podcast wouldn't exist without our fantastic, supportive, generous patrons. Come find us over on Patreon. We're at patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

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[00:15:15] The signs that someone is kind, emotionally available and truly there for you. Whether it's a friend or partner or even how you show up for yourself. Recognizing and practicing green flags can lead to healthy, fulfilling relationships. Relationships we all deserve. And what if you're not sure what green flags are? And what if you're not sure what your green flags are? Well, therapy can help. It's a great way to get clear on what you value in relationships. How to set healthy boundaries.

[00:15:44] How to show up as the best version of yourself. Both for you and the people you care about. Therapy isn't just for working through challenges. It's also about growth and self-discovery and learning skills that help you build stronger, better relationships. And with BetterHelp, getting started is easier than ever. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient. With access to a network of over 30,000 credentialed therapists across a range of specialties. You just fill out a brief questionnaire, get matched with a therapist,

[00:16:12] and you can start talking whatever way works best for you. Video, phone, or chat. And if you ever feel like you'd be a better fit with someone else, you can switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash culty to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. Let's talk about keeping the love alive. Because February shouldn't be the only month we focus on passion. Am I right?

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[00:18:41] You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit CULTI, shall we? So I know you've had a long road to recovery. Before the book, you've been in therapy and you've been doing a lot of things to tackle the trauma. What's your road to recovery been like? And tell us some of the challenges and mistakes you've made. Yeah, I'm glad you asked for mistakes because I think maybe, you know, the book tells the long and winding road.

[00:19:07] But what I could more easily say is what not to do in recovery from my perspective. Tell us. For starters, don't try to outrun your trauma because it will catch up with you. I tried to escape by overachieving. And that bit me in the butt big time. We can get to that. And don't try to this. I was thinking about this. Don't try to convince yourself that the leaders can't hurt you anymore because they're in your past.

[00:19:37] Because the truth is they're still in your head. And their voices are in your head. And if you're like me, you're left with a brain that's attacking you from the inside. And that's where you need to get help. So I, you know, I went, I sought therapy. And it took me a long time to find the right therapist. But if you're like me and you have some kind of addiction, you need help.

[00:20:05] And when I first got, I finally got diagnosed with bulimia and PTSD. The psychologist said to me that she wasn't going to touch my eating disorder with a 10-foot pole because she recognized that there was so much more going on underneath. And I remember looking at her, puzzled, thinking, is there a reason why I can't stop binging apart from my sin? Like I had no clue.

[00:20:35] I just thought I was sinful, glutton. And I did not know I had been abused. Anyway, get help. So just to clarify, you get help with someone who also specializes in trauma. Yeah. Or, yeah. And it's hard to find the right fit. It really is. And it's expensive. I was very lucky because I was a teacher by then. So, yeah.

[00:21:03] And that was one of the side notes. One of the other reasons I fought for our lawsuit because I recognized if we can get any money, these people need therapy. You know? But another thing, what not to do, is if you've been abused by religion, don't turn to the church for help. I know that people will find that. Some people will find that actually a controversial thing to say.

[00:21:28] But it's my opinion and experience that it's unsafe if you suffered from religious abuse. And, yeah, like when I left the cult, I didn't know it was a cult. And I felt desperately lonely. And I really miss the community of like-minded believers. So I went searching for another.

[00:21:49] And I did not understand why I couldn't stop crying every time I took my kids to church, thinking that they'd go to hell if I didn't take them. Fun fact, I owe my freedom from church in large part to my son's hockey schedule. So take your kids to hockey, I think. Sports mom. Sports mom winning. Yeah. That's funny. But it's true. Sometimes you just need to be away from the thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:18] And I actually found a church where there was a very kind leader, a priest. And he's still friendly to me to this day, but I wasn't benefiting by being there. And in fact, it was actually hurting me more. And the tears are a very good example or indicator, if you will. Did you ever read Dr. Laura Anderson's book, When Religion Hurts You? Loved it. Yeah. So good, right? Absolutely. I'm so glad she wrote that.

[00:22:47] And I have been recommending it to people because, yeah, religious trauma syndrome and religious abuse, these are very important. They're very important for them to be studied and addressed. And a lot of psychologists, I don't think, get it. So that is a really important book. Thanks for reminding me. Were you able to reconcile with your parents at all? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're a work in progress.

[00:23:16] Yes and no. Well, no. I will say yes, because my parents have come a long way since, like I think I mentioned in the book, all through the lawsuit, they just didn't want to hear about it. Like they couldn't deal with the fact that I was part of that. And then when I got to trial, I basically tried to – I had to make a decision that I couldn't have them in my life if they were going to be on the fence. So I told them that. And my dad especially, that really affected him.

[00:23:46] And he begged me to reconsider. And so we're a work in progress. And also in my book, like they supported the book enough to let me – my dad let me share one of his confession letters, which I think makes a really – Powerful. Yeah. Don't you think? Like it really shows his level of brainwashing and his level of, you know, how much he was controlled.

[00:24:13] So the fact that he's letting me share that and they really are supporting me telling our story. So in that way, I'm really grateful to them. And yeah, we're just – you know, I think the hardest thing I have with my parents is that level of religiosity. They still go to a church that some of the Grenville defenders go to in Brockville. And that really – I find that very difficult. So yeah.

[00:24:39] But anyway, it's safe to say our family was very much shattered by Grenville and we're slowly – I don't know. I don't know. It's a stretch to say we're healing. But maybe we are. I hope so. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that matters a lot that they are supporting the book. And anyway, back to the recovery.

[00:25:06] I wanted to mention another thing that I learned the hard way – and this is really hard – is anxiety medications. You got to be careful because you have deep wounds that are only masked by these meds. I ended up seeing a psychiatrist along with a psychologist and she recommended benzos eventually. I tried all kinds of things and they all had side effects.

[00:25:30] But benzos, once I tried that, it did seem to take the edge off my crushing anxiety. And I ended up being on them for 10 years before I had some memory issues that were really concerning. And then tapering off sent me into this horrible, horrible place, which was withdrawal. And the process of withdrawal was so debilitating that I lost my teaching career.

[00:26:02] Oh, Beth. And I couldn't function for years. So then I had to fight with my insurance company for disability. So anyway, I don't wish that situation on anyone. And so just be very careful with meds. This is when I was reading your book and what a gift that I had your email during it. So I was messaging throughout.

[00:26:31] What happened to so-and-so? And then I was like, oh my God. Because it was Ativan specifically, correct? And this is when I was also telling Nippy, who watched me, by the way, not nearly as severe. I only was on it for a month because my doctor told me a month only. And your doctor didn't tell you that. No. Right? Didn't tell you that it was supposed to be short-term use only. But I know when I went off of it and then a couple other times when I went back on it, like when I was moving cross-country and then getting off of it again, just after being on it for a couple of days.

[00:27:01] The withdrawal is – the point is it's very addictive and it's very hard to get off of it. And I've had a number of incidences where like Nippy and I almost got divorced because I felt legit crazy. Yeah. It's very dangerous. Some people can never get off of it. And it hijacks your brain. I was on for 10 years. So like I think I'm still dealing with like all the side effects are just completely debilitating. You have to be so careful. That's another episode. It's a whole other episode maybe.

[00:27:31] It's just crazy the drugs that are going on right now. But speaking of drugs, the other part that I was messaging about because I never talked to anyone who went through that. But then also when I heard you say – or read you say that you had to get off coffee, which I – Oh, yeah. As I just emailed you, I'm going through this right now. Yeah. And my friends are like, eh, you can have a half cup or whatever. I cannot drink coffee. It is very bad for my anxiety. Why didn't I figure – I've been out of NXIVM for seven years. Why didn't anyone talk to me about that? And when I read that in your book, I was like, holy fucking shit.

[00:28:01] Coffee is not good for people with anxiety. Why isn't this not like the first thing a doctor says if you're anxious versus get on Ativan? How about get off coffee? I know. Well, it was funny because my psychologist – I said to her one day, I said – I think I put this in the book. Like I was – I found forest walking to be key to recovery. But I was like – I was still on coffee and I was going through withdrawal.

[00:28:25] And I was feeling this horrible feeling like I was crying the whole time, which I often do in this forest. That's nothing new. But I was crying and I was also feeling like I needed to like run, but I can't run because I have bad knees. And I also felt like taking a nap. Like I just – like all these things are happening at once. And like – and I wanted to like maybe just like, you know, do push-ups or something. Like – and I said to her, like, this is the way I'm feeling all the time.

[00:28:53] She said, Beth, are you – are you still on caffeine? Just still drinking coffee? And I said, yes, like all day. And this is my psychologist said, I told you to go off of that. And I was like, I never did, you know, like because I didn't think it was important. But by then, the anxiety and withdrawal is over the top.

[00:29:16] So I followed her lead and then I went into like a mono feeling for a few weeks and months where I was napping all the time because of the caffeine withdrawal. For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir. It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. I narrate the audio version and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:29:43] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast. You know, we always hear about red flags, the things to avoid in relationships in particular. But what about green flags, the signs that someone is kind, emotionally available, and truly there for you? Whether it's a friend or partner, or even how you show up for yourself. Recognizing and practicing green flags can lead to healthy, fulfilling relationships.

[00:30:13] Relationships we all deserve. And what if you're not sure what green flags are? And what if you're not sure what your green flags are? Well, therapy can help. It's a great way to get clear on what you value in relationships. How to set healthy boundaries. How to show up as the best version of yourself, both for you and the people you care about. Therapy isn't just for working through challenges. It's also about growth and self-discovery and learning skills that help you build stronger, better relationships. And with BetterHelp, getting started is easier than ever.

[00:30:44] BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, with access to a network of over 30,000 credentialed therapists across a range of specialties. You just fill out a brief questionnaire, get matched with a therapist, and you can start talking whatever way works best for you. Video, phone, or chat. And if you ever feel like you'd be a better fit with someone else, you can switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash culty to get 10% off your first month.

[00:31:14] That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. Let's talk about keeping the love alive. Because February shouldn't be the only month we focus on passion. Am I right? Well, if you want to keep that Valentine's Day energy going all year round, Vaya has you covered. We love this brand. We've been using their products for quite some time now, and let me tell you, whether you're looking to unwind, boost your mood, or enhance those more intimate moments, Vaya's got something for you.

[00:31:40] And if you're looking for something, dare I say, extra special in the bedroom, their best-selling High Love Gummy is designed to awaken your senses, increase blood flow, and intensify any sexual experience. It's packed with a unique blend of aphrodisiac herbs, pleasure-enhancing cannabinoids, and a perfect medium dose of THC. They've even just launched their High Love Bundle, which includes a pack of gummies, a THCA vape, so you can unlock the full experience at amazing price. Vaya is trusted by over half a million happy customers

[00:32:08] and is known for its award-winning THC and THC-free gummies, vapes, THC flowers, soothing topicals, and calming drops. I need some calming drops. Everything is crafted with the highest quality ham sourced from independently owned American farms. And the best part? Vaya ships legally to nearly all states in the U.S. in discreet packaging, so it gets delivered right to your door. No medical card required. Personally, we've been loving the Focus gummies, so helpful in helping to write our book.

[00:32:35] Look, nothing helps me stay on track like those gummies. The quality is unreal. I can totally feel the difference. I am zoned in. I am dialed. Or as my son Troy says, I am locked in. Lock in, Mom. Lock in. Whether you want to unwind or lock in after a long day or after a busy day, boost your mood, or just experience something new, Vaya's got you. If you're 21+, check out the link to Vaya in our description and use the code CULTI to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice.

[00:33:05] After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. This month of love, elevate your love life with Vaya. That's Vaya. V-I-I-A. Check out the link in our description and use code CULTI for 15% off and get a free gift if you're a new customer. Enjoy. Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit CULTI. It's a good one. I just have to tell you, Nippy's looking at me because he understands me.

[00:33:33] Because I mean, I certainly felt seen and heard when I read your book. Well, specifically just there's been times when I'll be like, I need to go for a walk, but I also really need to nap. And I also could probably fold a bunch of laundry. And I also like, and Nippy will look at me like, could you make a decision? Like, just take a nap. And I'm like, but I really also need to exercise. And it's a very hard feeling to explain to someone who doesn't feel it. I need a cough. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. I almost want to cry.

[00:34:03] I just want to hug you and be like, I'm with you. And like, oh, so much. Yeah. It's so debilitating. The trauma is all through our bodies, right? And so, yeah, I've learned that the key for me, like I cannot start a day unless I exercise. I have no choice. And I also need naps. And like you said, the caffeine was a killer, but it took me a long time to realize that. And then, and there's one other thing I want to talk about with recovery that I've learned not to do.

[00:34:32] And this is about eating disorders. I know everyone's different. And my advice or my thoughts are, you know, take them with a grain of salt. But what I've learned is that if you are struggling with an eating disorder, don't try to control your eating. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but you have to stop restricting. And that only makes things worse. And the best way is to let go of control, which is really scary.

[00:35:01] But there are a lot of experts in intuitive eating now. And I've gotten a lot of help. And I've been able to feel and process the pain of all the diet-related trauma. I've had to let myself gain weight. I've had to learn that I can trust my appetite again, even though, as I said, it's really scary. And learn to be kind and patient with myself.

[00:35:28] And after 50 years of struggling on that, I'm not completely healed, but I'm really close. And I've never felt more comfortable in my own skin. So there's hope with that too. That's great. Any other things that we didn't cover in terms of your anxiety? Like any other tips you found other than no coffee and forest walking? Well, another thing I noticed in that, the worst part of withdrawal was that my heart rate was racing. Like I'd be sitting down just doing nothing

[00:35:57] and it would be at 110 or higher. And I don't know what possessed me to, maybe it's because it was during COVID, like the lockdowns, but I thought, I wonder if I could paint. And I didn't have much, any money. So I went to the Dollarama and bought a few paints and splurged on some canvases and started watching YouTube videos. And while I was doing the painting, my heart rate just went right down to 70.

[00:36:27] And I then realized, like I quickly got to be good at painting. And my grandmother was a professional oil painter. And I had never developed those skills until then. So painting was one way that I was able to release this anxiety. And just like I was mentioning to you the other day, I'm listening to this book called Beyond Anxiety by Martha Beck. And it is so good. I recommend it to everyone.

[00:36:57] She actually helped me calm myself for today's recording. You know, she's got these practical tips. But one of the things she's saying is that art and creativity of any kind, like just getting creative about problem solving, tapping into your right side of your brain is going to shut down the anxiety. And I found that out just on my own with the painting. That's just amazing what happened there. And then writing has also been a huge part

[00:37:26] of my recovery. Like I said before, I thought I was dealing with the trauma through the whole lawsuit. And it forced me to get to a certain understanding. But I didn't really actually process the pain of all the things that I'd dissociated from and forgotten until after the trial. And that happened while I was writing the book. And writing was the most transformative and healing process I've gone through.

[00:37:54] Way more than therapy, way more than everything else. So like, I don't know if people have luxury to write, but try, you know, it's just, it's been incredibly, like a huge gift to me, really. Well, your book is a huge gift. Oh, thank you. Well, it gave me a purpose too, because as I said, I lost my career, which is, I'm still grieving. I was a very, I'm going to say it, I'm going to be nice and haughty.

[00:38:23] I was a fucking good teacher. I bet you were. Amazing. You should be haughty about that. And I bet you're a good teacher and also a very nice teacher. I was, yeah. Opposite of how you were taught. We had so much fun in my classroom and I miss it more than I can say. But the book gave me a new purpose. And, you know, turning your pain into purpose is really key, I think. Yeah, it's the process. It's how you make your story wisdom. That was a huge part of recovery was writing.

[00:38:52] And I did it, I wrote the first draft for probably over two years. Every day I just made myself go into my former room of shame. And I call it room of shame because it used to be the sort of the storage closet of our house. And then I turned it into an office and now this is where I repaired a lifetime of shame by writing. That's awesome. And it comes out February 19th? Yes, it does. I can't believe it. Well, let us know.

[00:39:21] We'll do a post or something for you. Oh, for sure. And we'll link to it in the show notes. And you narrate the Audible, correct? I do, yes. That was a whole thing. And also cathartic too, right? To say that out loud? Oh, very. I mean, I cried a lot writing it. I knew I was doing a good scene if it made me cry while I was writing. You know what I mean? But when I read it out loud, some of the scenes that may or may not

[00:39:49] have made me cry in the first place made me cry when I was reading it because it's like you're reliving it in another way. And my eyes kept opening to like, oh my God, like you shut those emotions down so much when you're in the cult, right? You can't afford to feel them. So all this writing and then the reading of it out loud and even talking about this, like this has been, I'm enjoying this session with you, but I've been scared to death

[00:40:19] the last few weeks because talking about this stuff is really hard. I don't like it. I don't want to think about it, you know? Well, now that you've done it. Now that, oh, I'm really, I'm really glad I'm here with you and I'm really glad it's how it's going. But yeah, just with the reading of the book was incredibly healing. And I felt so proud of myself when I finished, so. I'm proud of you too. Thank you. And I feel like, I want this to be a series. I want this to be a,

[00:40:49] CBC should make a series out of this or a movie or something. Maybe we should write to the National Film Board or some of the contacts we made when we got out and be like, okay, let's make a series out of this. Well, it's funny you say that. Yeah. Like, yeah, on location, it's not doing anything. Is it empty? It's empty, just sitting there like a haunted house. It is haunted. Oh my God, let's go. Let's do it. Not right now, Sarah. Not right now. Other things to do. Well, thank you so much.

[00:41:19] Thank you so much, Beth. You're wonderful. I hope we keep in touch as my fellow Canadian anxiety-ridden, ex-caffeinated cult survivor. Thank you, Beth. Thank you, Sarah. I'm going to go have a coffee. Enjoy. Thank you, guys. I'm so grateful. If you like the show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes. Cults are commonplace now and we're looking at them all

[00:41:48] and every little bit helps. Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode. Thanks, everyone. We really appreciate you coming to the show, Beth. Healing is not easy, as we know, and we appreciate you sharing your story with us. Thank you, Beth, my dear fellow Canadian. We hope, in fact, we know that you've inspired any listeners who might be struggling with their own trauma. If you want to learn more about Grenville and Beth's experience, make sure to pick up her new memoir,

[00:42:17] Born and Raised, Surviving the Cult Was Only Half the Battle. We just saw the cover for that book, too. It looks good. It looks good and I think you're going to want a copy. We'll put a link to her blog in the show notes. It's a great segue to the book that we're working on, isn't it, Sarah? It is. We are working through a draft and we are knee-deep in notes and whiteboards and little stickies. Civil discourse, would you call it? I don't know if we're going to get through another couple. I am winning the fights in these. It's just no big deal. Thank you to everyone

[00:42:47] who has pre-ordered the book. If you're not following us on Patreon, we go much more into the weeds about the process over there, but really the pre-orders help us cover all the upfront costs because, as you know, we are self-publishing this one. Thank you very much and we're going to be reading some excerpts over there at some point. Drip, I think, is what they call it. We're dripping it. We're dripping this book. Mad drip. Okay, everyone. Thanks for listening and until next time. Bye. Bye.

[00:43:29] A Little Bit Culti is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios and our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. is here. Are you sure you