Cult Trip: Anke Richter on Coercion & Control

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical

[00:00:04] or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official

[00:00:08] policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group,

[00:00:12] club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:25] I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony air quotes Nippy Ames

[00:00:29] And this is A Little Bit Culty

[00:00:32] A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told

[00:00:40] directly by the people who lived through them.

[00:00:43] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:47] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already

[00:00:51] prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult.

[00:00:54] Oops, you better keep listening to find out.

[00:00:57] Welcome to season 6 of A Little Bit Culty

[00:00:59] Hello everybody and welcome back to this week's episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:21] Our guest today is Anka Richter, Anka like Donka.

[00:01:25] Anka Richter, a New Zealand based author of Cult Trip inside the world of coercion and control

[00:01:30] from Harper Collins 2022 which by the way is finally out as an audiobook and just had its

[00:01:35] US paperback release in February 2024.

[00:01:38] Cult Trip covers Anka's intrepid and conflicting journey as a journalist researching the disastrous

[00:01:43] aftermath of a former sex cult while also being sucked into the conscious sexuality

[00:01:48] school ISTA that has now come under scrutiny.

[00:01:51] Anka's book has led to work as a media liaison and advocate for cult survivors and collaborations

[00:02:16] with international cult experts, survivor networks, therapists and counselors.

[00:02:21] Her latest project is organizing New Zealand's first cult symposium, TEDx style for late 2024

[00:02:27] in Christchurch.

[00:02:28] Her story spans journalism, a personal entanglement with a controversial organization and advocacy

[00:02:33] work.

[00:02:34] A lot to cover there.

[00:02:35] So let's get to it.

[00:02:36] Here's our chat with Anka Richter and please be advised listener the cults we discuss

[00:02:41] in this episode involve terrible abuses of power.

[00:02:44] So we'll be covering things like sexual assault, also assault of children.

[00:02:49] So please listen with care.

[00:02:51] Thank you.

[00:03:05] Welcome to a little bit culty.

[00:03:06] Thank you.

[00:03:07] I'm so excited to be here.

[00:03:09] You have no idea.

[00:03:10] This is it for me.

[00:03:12] After a year of my book out and podcasting and whatnot, but here we are.

[00:03:16] Fantastic.

[00:03:17] Great.

[00:03:18] I'm so happy to finally have you on and we have both been just devouring your book.

[00:03:22] Cruise through it.

[00:03:23] Yeah.

[00:03:24] We're going to talk all about it and you brought a bunch of groups or cults depending

[00:03:29] on your perspective to our purview, which we didn't know.

[00:03:33] We didn't know about.

[00:03:34] So thank you for that.

[00:03:36] And how you feeling?

[00:03:37] Bit nervous and also aware that you guys have not heard of these groups that here in

[00:03:43] my, because everyone's very, very familiar with them.

[00:03:47] I bet we've got court cases here.

[00:03:49] We've got historical abuse that's been discussed now and then over the last decades and

[00:03:55] you're hearing all this for the first time.

[00:03:56] So I'm also curious how it landed for you.

[00:03:59] Well, first of all, there's something with the towns of Albany because we were

[00:04:04] in Albany, New York and you're Albany, Albany, Auckland.

[00:04:07] And said for center point, right?

[00:04:09] It's a bit conspiratorial.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:11] No, I'm doing it.

[00:04:12] And there's an Albany in Georgia.

[00:04:15] There's an Albany in Georgia, but I'm afraid to drive through it now.

[00:04:17] So.

[00:04:18] Well, let's check out what's happening there.

[00:04:20] Yeah.

[00:04:21] So we just loved your book.

[00:04:23] For those who don't know your story, give us a little bit of introduction.

[00:04:27] What was the genesis of cult trip inside the world of coercion and control?

[00:04:32] Where did your journey start?

[00:04:33] Well, this book is almost like a miracle baby after a termination because there was another

[00:04:40] book that I failed to finish, which was the book about center point.

[00:04:45] The first cult in the book, which was a former sex and therapy cult here in New Zealand.

[00:04:51] On my journey with it all really started about 10 years ago.

[00:04:54] I mean, I've been always interested in communities and I want to say cults, but I spent

[00:05:02] a year at a world of startup boarding school in England when I was 16.

[00:05:06] I think that's really formative stepping out of the German mainstream of a very high

[00:05:12] achiever family and education and all of that and being in such a different environment

[00:05:18] than I spent more than half a year as a doctor's wife on a remote at all in the South Pacific

[00:05:25] in a very small, prolile Asian community.

[00:05:27] All these things had a profound impact on me.

[00:05:30] I've always been drawn to, or to enter festivals here in New Zealand.

[00:05:33] There's some really beautiful intentional communities that are not cultic, but I mean,

[00:05:38] you never know where things can go.

[00:05:40] It was in this country.

[00:05:41] So I was a woofer in my 30s when I stepped away from television for a year and did

[00:05:46] a sabbatical and traveled around Australia and was a willing worker on organic farms.

[00:05:50] So really it's always sought was always seeking out those contrasts, I guess,

[00:05:55] to my home life or to my career.

[00:05:58] And so I've been drawn into those those directions anyway, like how what do people

[00:06:04] do who want to live differently from the mainstream?

[00:06:06] Or what are they exploring?

[00:06:08] Or what do they have to offer for me?

[00:06:10] So 10 years ago, I went to an or more than 10 years ago, 10, 12 years ago,

[00:06:14] I went to a Neo-Chantra festival in Australia and I was really curious about it.

[00:06:21] I was a little bit cynical about it too, but I went there with some friends at

[00:06:24] Audi, so to start to dabble a little bit in this scene for personal reasons,

[00:06:29] had my apprehensions.

[00:06:30] But then I jumped on the opportunity to go to this festival and also I was also

[00:06:35] later asked to write a little sort of, well, nothing in the best again,

[00:06:40] just like an experiential piece about it, which I wrote under pseudonym

[00:06:43] because I would have never really owned to the fact that this could also be

[00:06:48] something for me that I really liked.

[00:06:50] And so I was there and it was incidentally,

[00:06:53] this is also where I got hooked into the whole, I would say,

[00:06:56] contraceptionality scene or whatever you want to call it.

[00:06:59] While I was also while it was also my unintentional entry into cult journalism

[00:07:04] because I met a woman there from this former New Zealand sex cult centre

[00:07:09] point and she had been a teenager there, the commune concubine as she described

[00:07:14] it and that opened up a whole world for me.

[00:07:16] I thought actually with my journalist set on this is a book.

[00:07:19] I've written three books previously published in Germany.

[00:07:23] I thought this is a massive story.

[00:07:24] I should write it down.

[00:07:25] I've got to, you know, I have someone here who wants to share a story in them,

[00:07:29] but there's more and yes, there was more.

[00:07:31] There was too much more.

[00:07:33] I spent two years mired in this labyrinth of former cult victims,

[00:07:38] stories and trauma that hadn't really been processed.

[00:07:41] And in the end, I had to give up that book after after two years

[00:07:46] when the going got too hard and was a massive, massive failure for me.

[00:07:50] But it was also the starting point and for more investigations

[00:07:55] and looking into other groups, culture groups

[00:07:58] and actually becoming more I got my own cult education through all this research.

[00:08:03] And then I was better set up to look into other groups as well.

[00:08:05] And then full circle, half of Collins came around

[00:08:09] and offered me to write a book about cults in New Zealand

[00:08:13] and maybe a bit further than I said, well,

[00:08:14] it happens that I have an unfinished manuscript in my drawer,

[00:08:18] a computer of a book that I had to give up on the first round.

[00:08:23] And this is how all this came about.

[00:08:25] Yeah. Wow. OK, so many questions, but just there's two things I just need you.

[00:08:29] Well, one thing I need to define,

[00:08:31] first of all, because you said that you got into this

[00:08:33] through the neotentric scene or conscious sexuality.

[00:08:36] Can you just give our listeners a little bit of background

[00:08:39] on what those terms mean?

[00:08:40] Yeah, normally people call it just tantra.

[00:08:43] And I prefer to call it neotantra because tantra, from my limited understanding,

[00:08:48] I'm really not a scholar expert on any of this just to form a participant.

[00:08:52] But tantra is an ancient tradition

[00:08:55] comes from Hinduism and Buddhism and Buddhism,

[00:08:59] whereas neotantra is a often country appropriated Western version

[00:09:04] that was sprung mainly from Osho or Bhagwan or Roshnid

[00:09:08] and Pune, but also Alistair Crowley's Sex Magic in San Francisco

[00:09:14] and a lot of the 70s groups in California

[00:09:19] who were propagating a mix of new age therapies, human potential movement stuff.

[00:09:26] And a lot of that stuff is not wrong.

[00:09:28] I wouldn't just put it all under the umbrella of toxic tantra as I put it in my book.

[00:09:34] But I think there's a whole movement now over the last last decades,

[00:09:38] also of sexual educators, of healers, of body focused therapists

[00:09:44] who are also trying to really offer some work where maybe gynecologists

[00:09:48] and psychotherapists can't go.

[00:09:52] So there's good stuff and there's bad stuff in there as in all those things.

[00:09:57] It's messy as we call it.

[00:09:59] Yeah, I'd say the 70s California movements have produced quite a few episodes for us.

[00:10:04] That timeframe is really...

[00:10:05] They've got a lot to answer for.

[00:10:07] That's right. We're still seeing the role and effect of it.

[00:10:09] Yeah.

[00:10:11] Well, I feel like all the the the cults and communities that you cover

[00:10:15] in your book deserve their own podcast, eventually,

[00:10:19] their own episode with survivors.

[00:10:21] And I feel like this is a great entry point for our audience

[00:10:24] to understand what you went through and what you uncovered and what you on Earth.

[00:10:29] I personally didn't.

[00:10:30] I mean, like I said, the cults, people had mentioned them to me.

[00:10:33] I had heard of Center Point.

[00:10:34] I've heard of Gloria Dale, but I had Gloria Vale, Gloria Dale.

[00:10:38] Gloria Vale.

[00:10:38] Gloria Vale, yeah.

[00:10:39] Oh, Gloria Fail.

[00:10:41] Gloria Fail. Let's call it that.

[00:10:42] Yeah, I'd heard of them.

[00:10:44] We've been getting panged about it a lot.

[00:10:45] But I hadn't deep dived.

[00:10:47] But one thing I also didn't know is just that there were conscious communities

[00:10:50] in New Zealand that there was an influx of people trying to, you know,

[00:10:54] build something different and also get out of Western civilizations,

[00:10:58] belief system and create something unique, separate of the cults, correct?

[00:11:03] Yeah, it's interesting because we've New Zealand's had the highest number

[00:11:06] of intentional communities in the world.

[00:11:09] I'm not sure if there still all exist, but definitely in the 80s

[00:11:12] it became such a magnet for people to, you know, escape from, you know,

[00:11:17] Europe, Chernobyl and Cold War and what not.

[00:11:21] It became this utopian place.

[00:11:23] Actually, it's always been a utopian place

[00:11:24] even after the Second World War with, you know, refugees and Holocaust survivors.

[00:11:29] And it's been it's always been this sort of haven for new beginnings.

[00:11:32] And surprise surprises.

[00:11:34] Also been a haven for some cult leaders who wanted to set up shop here,

[00:11:38] like Swami, they're still, you know, running head of the Gama yoga from Thailand.

[00:11:43] He checked out New Zealand to see if he could bring his flock here

[00:11:46] and build some, you know, doomsday, getaway bunker thing or whatever on a mountain.

[00:11:53] He's not the only one.

[00:11:54] It's it's a place where often people come and think they can just hide

[00:11:57] from authorities in other countries.

[00:11:59] So I think we need to be especially aware of camps here in New Zealand.

[00:12:03] Yeah, I had no idea.

[00:12:04] And I also am excited about this episode because as you know,

[00:12:08] and you even mentioned a maximum for a second in your book,

[00:12:11] being a, you know, a sex cult, that's something I've always explained is like,

[00:12:15] well, there was the program and then there was the stuff behind closed doors.

[00:12:19] All of these programs were specifically about sexual exploration

[00:12:23] and liberation that was part of the education, right?

[00:12:26] Yeah, in my book, I made it really clear that I said how misrepresenting

[00:12:32] the term sex cult is also especially for next year and that maybe sex traffic

[00:12:36] and cult would be the more correct way of putting it because people like yourself,

[00:12:41] obviously, and most people didn't go in it for sexual exploration.

[00:12:46] They were there for different reasons.

[00:12:48] And I guess that's different to cults where sex is left front and center,

[00:12:53] but then it can be more hidden or more veiled.

[00:12:57] Even Gloria Vale, this extreme fundamentalist Christian cult here in New Zealand

[00:13:02] that's so on the radar at the moment because they have lots of court cases.

[00:13:05] Some of their sexual abusers are finally been brought to justice

[00:13:09] just of this week, a big conviction, slave labor cases, what not?

[00:13:13] I mean, and they look like, you know, they look like the handmade tail

[00:13:17] come to life in blue, not in red.

[00:13:20] And they're all wear these long frocks

[00:13:21] and even just showing a bit of your skin on your ankle is a transgression and so on.

[00:13:26] But they're also a highly sexualized group on the inside

[00:13:30] and have far more in common with Centipo and the former sex cult

[00:13:34] than you would think because there's such a focus on

[00:13:38] not just on multiplying and breeding as in a lot of Christian cults

[00:13:42] as a form, basically, of growing but also of subjugating women

[00:13:46] because they're constantly in that role and constantly breeding,

[00:13:49] but also there's such a focus on the quote unquote,

[00:13:53] marital life and marital education.

[00:13:56] And that was often demonstrated in a very abusive way

[00:14:01] to the point of the former late leader even raping a young woman with a wooden dildo.

[00:14:07] You know, things like that.

[00:14:07] It just it's a very it's very normalized and there, of course,

[00:14:11] to see your parents having sex because everyone sleeps in the same room

[00:14:15] or it's talked about a dinner time about what the cows do

[00:14:18] and then this is how we should do it.

[00:14:20] And it's become such a, you know, and the split between the psychic split

[00:14:25] between having such an enforced purity culture.

[00:14:27] But on the other hand, you're having this over sexualized frame,

[00:14:32] but you can only move in it in the terms that have been dictated to you

[00:14:35] with a, you know, obviously not as a queer person,

[00:14:38] obviously not with a partner of your choice only in those confines

[00:14:42] of what the cult dictates, but then it's all on.

[00:14:45] Gosh, I mean, can you imagine what that does to people and especially young people?

[00:14:49] Especially kids grown up in it.

[00:14:51] So they qualify as a sex card in my books too, right?

[00:14:55] Even though that's not what people in New Zealand think of them.

[00:14:58] Absolutely.

[00:14:58] Well, we saw so many parallels between even though the the cults were new,

[00:15:04] it was still fairly textbook, right, in terms of the patterns of behavior

[00:15:10] and the process is process identical.

[00:15:13] I guess when Centerpoint, we can get more into Centerpoint too.

[00:15:16] Centerpoint puts the con right out front,

[00:15:18] whereas Keith put the con through personal and professional development, right?

[00:15:22] Well, I guess it's not so much the con that he put the teachings.

[00:15:25] That's what he used.

[00:15:26] He put the teaching up front.

[00:15:28] He used the teaching to lure, but the bait and switch.

[00:15:30] Yeah, I meant Centerpoint put the sex education.

[00:15:33] You're coming there for the sexual liberation, right?

[00:15:38] You're coming there for the sexual liberation,

[00:15:39] but it was also a quote unquote therapy cult.

[00:15:43] Right.

[00:15:43] They offered therapy workshops.

[00:15:45] They were all self appointed therapists and a lot of Auckland's

[00:15:49] psychologists and psychotherapists from the university in their established

[00:15:54] professions flocked there on weekends, did courses.

[00:15:57] There wouldn't be seen dead now,

[00:15:59] but they've no one wants to admit that they were all participating

[00:16:02] there for some time.

[00:16:03] And then a bird potter, the leader there was there.

[00:16:07] You know, he was the to go to guy at the time,

[00:16:09] especially when it came to unblocking women because New Zealand,

[00:16:13] I mean, we're talking early, early 80s.

[00:16:16] It wasn't California.

[00:16:18] It wasn't it wasn't Berlin.

[00:16:19] It was a real backwater when it comes to therapy or liberation.

[00:16:23] And people come out of restrictive Christianity usually.

[00:16:26] And there was no counseling around.

[00:16:28] There were the churches and maybe your doctor, your family doctor.

[00:16:32] And that was it.

[00:16:33] And then the potter became the to go to guy, to quote unquote unblock women

[00:16:37] and help them.

[00:16:38] So there was a real need for these kind of services,

[00:16:42] but what where they went and who they engaged with about this,

[00:16:45] obviously it was the wrong person.

[00:16:47] But the overall thing was always therapy, liberation.

[00:16:51] They didn't put sex sort of, they didn't,

[00:16:55] they didn't promote that on the outside so much,

[00:16:58] but it became known for it and it came known this place

[00:17:01] so people open up their relationships and they explore.

[00:17:04] And of course, if you're on the inside,

[00:17:06] the pressure to do that was huge.

[00:17:08] And then word got also out that this is a play.

[00:17:12] I mean, word got out too late and wasn't acted on that children were

[00:17:16] unsafe there and children were involved in these,

[00:17:19] you know, in these sexual activities and children were being

[00:17:22] preyed on and so on.

[00:17:24] And I guess that also maybe made it a magnet for some people

[00:17:29] further down the track as well.

[00:17:31] We thought, oh, we can just blend in here as pedophiles and then

[00:17:34] we're going to, you know, we can, it's kind of accepted what we're after.

[00:17:37] So that was all in mesh, the therapy and the fake sexual liberation

[00:17:43] because it wasn't liberation or people there weren't free.

[00:17:46] Oh, you familiar with polyamory.

[00:17:48] It's been a big buzz over the last decade or so.

[00:17:52] And this wasn't polyamory.

[00:17:54] This wasn't about really respecting each other's boundaries

[00:17:58] and having good communication and being equal players on an equal field.

[00:18:03] Otherwise, you know, if there's coercion, there's no freedom.

[00:18:06] So all the talk about the free love community, that was no real love.

[00:18:11] And there wasn't really real freedom.

[00:18:13] So I'm a bit allergic to that being, being the word,

[00:18:17] polyamory gets mixed in with those kind of groups because that's not what it was.

[00:18:20] It was enforced promiscuity and it's done so much damage.

[00:18:24] Well, because you couldn't say no, right?

[00:18:26] And any personal boundary was a sign of something to be unblocked.

[00:18:31] Exactly, it was a sign of weakness or not being, you know, you need to get with a program.

[00:18:34] And the terrible thing was not just for the adults,

[00:18:37] it caused a lot of harm there too.

[00:18:39] But for Imagine being a 12, 13 year old in that environment where you in order

[00:18:45] to sort of survive and have your place in the packing order and run with the pack,

[00:18:52] you would have to be that young sort of goddess, floaty, yeah,

[00:18:57] coming in concubine as my interview and friend Angie Mikkeljohn,

[00:19:03] who I met at the festival, explained it to me.

[00:19:05] It was a motor's upper-end enough.

[00:19:07] And for those who didn't quite understand where all this was coming from,

[00:19:11] especially maybe men of a certain age who were in this community,

[00:19:15] entered the community, they saw these frisky young girls approaching them

[00:19:19] and are asking for a quickie in the bushes and whatnot.

[00:19:22] And they thought, OK, well, they want this.

[00:19:24] You know, this is consensual.

[00:19:27] And then they were all absolutely astonished that later on this was framed as abusive

[00:19:32] because, hey, everyone wanted this.

[00:19:34] They did not, most people did not understand who lived in there

[00:19:37] or who came there and participated in workshops.

[00:19:40] That what they were seeing was cursive control

[00:19:43] and people didn't really act from there on.

[00:19:45] Well, they were they weren't survivor mark.

[00:19:50] This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:19:54] Are you with us?

[00:19:56] Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty

[00:20:00] for bonus episodes, exclusive content and the occasional zoom

[00:20:04] with our fan favorites from our past episodes.

[00:20:06] It's a lot of fun over there, people.

[00:20:15] Break times over, people.

[00:20:16] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Cultie.

[00:20:18] It's a good one.

[00:20:20] If anyone hasn't done the work that you've done or read your whole book

[00:20:23] or been on this decade long journey, how do you respond to them?

[00:20:27] Like what's the antidote to that belief?

[00:20:28] Like they said they were into it.

[00:20:30] This is what they signed up for.

[00:20:31] What's your explanation to that?

[00:20:33] It's difficult because it takes me right, Sarah,

[00:20:35] it takes me right back to those conflicting years

[00:20:39] where I've actually where I was so deep in all the research,

[00:20:42] where I talk to all these people, some of these, you know,

[00:20:46] some wonderful, smart, caring adults who explained it all to me,

[00:20:52] who'd lived there as adults, who were concerned about what happened

[00:20:54] but who didn't really grasp the full picture.

[00:20:58] And then later sometimes I found out that they were also complicit in abuse.

[00:21:03] Right.

[00:21:04] I was thrown around morally by so many perspectives

[00:21:08] and I couldn't keep distance.

[00:21:09] So you asked me that now brings me back to...

[00:21:12] I almost lost my perspective on that

[00:21:14] because at some point you almost wonder what's the matrix here?

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:19] Who got it all wrong?

[00:21:20] Maybe they were in the past with some kind of utopian liberation

[00:21:26] and if only, you know, us people with our old hangups

[00:21:32] and frameworks from the mainstream hadn't interfered,

[00:21:35] I mean, I know that sounds completely ridiculous.

[00:21:38] No, not at all.

[00:21:39] We did this as I was leaving.

[00:21:40] Okay, I did that I was leaving next year.

[00:21:42] I'm like, maybe I'm wrong.

[00:21:43] Like Keith is really, you know...

[00:21:45] No, I had to tell her, even she would say to me, like,

[00:21:48] she nipped it, I'm like, no, Sarah, they branded you.

[00:21:51] Like I had to like really, I had to say that to her, right?

[00:21:54] And I still go, but like what's bad about it?

[00:21:56] Because I was still gaslighting myself.

[00:21:58] So you were gaslighting...

[00:21:59] Oh my beer, I'll tell you.

[00:22:01] To unpick that and unpack that.

[00:22:03] And I wasn't even a victim of center point.

[00:22:07] I hadn't even been in there.

[00:22:08] I was only observing that and getting this vicarious trauma

[00:22:12] and taking all on.

[00:22:13] And still I was thrown around by these experiences

[00:22:16] and these perspectives and what is right and wrong.

[00:22:19] And then of course they had a real,

[00:22:21] some of these formatals well-trained

[00:22:23] and human potential rhetoric.

[00:22:25] They had a real neck of getting to me straight away.

[00:22:29] So basically every interview I started with them

[00:22:31] where every phone call started was,

[00:22:33] so why are you doing this?

[00:22:35] Have you been sexually abused yourself?

[00:22:37] Boom, you know, they're just,

[00:22:38] they're always brought it back to me.

[00:22:41] Like what's your gender here?

[00:22:43] What's wrong with you?

[00:22:44] That you want to even know what we did wrong, right?

[00:22:47] So something had to be wrong in some wrong, right?

[00:22:49] Or damaged in me.

[00:22:51] Otherwise I would just leave these wonderful people alone

[00:22:55] who did nothing wrong

[00:22:56] and it was just the police and the social workers

[00:22:58] who turned it all around.

[00:22:59] And something that really,

[00:23:01] something was, when you hear that too often,

[00:23:04] it leaves something behind

[00:23:06] where you start questioning yourself

[00:23:08] and as a journalist.

[00:23:09] I mean, I clearly wasn't a newbie.

[00:23:11] Now I've done 30 years of journalism so back then,

[00:23:14] over 20 years, I was a hard-hitting showbiz reporter

[00:23:18] in my early years.

[00:23:19] I worked for Tabloid, you know?

[00:23:21] I'm not a shrinking flower when it comes to dealing

[00:23:25] with tough people on the other side of the phone

[00:23:28] or the other side of the interview.

[00:23:30] But because this became almost so personal

[00:23:33] and I was so deeply invested

[00:23:35] because I'd met so many of the victims

[00:23:37] and I wanted to do them justice

[00:23:39] and bring justice for them.

[00:23:41] And I was so lost in this, yeah,

[00:23:44] in this labyrinth of different perspectives.

[00:23:47] So every bit that added to the self-doubt really landed

[00:23:50] for me at some point, questioning myself,

[00:23:52] what am I doing?

[00:23:53] Am I just on a cruise set here

[00:23:54] for some personal reason?

[00:23:55] Who am I trying to rescue?

[00:23:57] Is this even right?

[00:23:58] And usually as a journalist, you keep a distance.

[00:24:01] You go in there, you spend maybe a few days, maximum,

[00:24:03] maybe a few weeks if it's a longer feature with people.

[00:24:07] And then you pull back and then you write your piece

[00:24:09] and then you double check your quotes

[00:24:10] and then it can all be still very, very stressful

[00:24:13] and intense but at some point you step away from it.

[00:24:16] It's wrapped up.

[00:24:17] It gets wrapped up.

[00:24:17] But in my case, there just seemed to be no end.

[00:24:20] So I was lost.

[00:24:21] And this is a very long answer

[00:24:23] to your initial question.

[00:24:25] What was the question?

[00:24:26] Like how do you find that perspective, right?

[00:24:29] What do you say to people who say that they,

[00:24:31] you know, that they chose to be there

[00:24:33] and that they asked for it?

[00:24:35] Can I deny the abuse?

[00:24:36] Well, yeah, to deny the abuse.

[00:24:37] They say it's not abuse because they were asking for it.

[00:24:40] Well, first of all, the 12 year olds, the 14 years,

[00:24:43] the 15 years, the kids at center point

[00:24:45] never choose to be there.

[00:24:47] No.

[00:24:47] That's the first thing.

[00:24:48] Secondly, these adults later on

[00:24:50] and some of these mothers who saw their young daughters

[00:24:53] being taken away to boat potters hut

[00:24:56] and then it was happening there

[00:24:57] and one woman had a breakdown on the lawn

[00:24:59] and that's why other women basically told her,

[00:25:01] hey, you can't stop your child from being,

[00:25:04] you know, you are such a block person.

[00:25:06] Now don't you want your child to do better than that?

[00:25:08] Don't deny your child this opportunity.

[00:25:10] And these women were also suffering.

[00:25:12] We can look at them and seeing, oh my God,

[00:25:15] they let their 12 year olds be, you know,

[00:25:19] deflowered or whatever you wanna call it, raped, yeah?

[00:25:22] By the guru.

[00:25:25] But also these women, you know,

[00:25:26] there were also victims of control

[00:25:28] and they paid a price for that

[00:25:30] and they lost contact with their daughters later on.

[00:25:32] So did they choose this when they went

[00:25:34] and then the first place?

[00:25:35] Was this what they thought they were signing up for

[00:25:38] when they joined center point

[00:25:39] in the late 70s or early 80s,

[00:25:41] sold all their belongings,

[00:25:42] lived in this wonderful community

[00:25:44] where everyone was working on the land

[00:25:45] and it didn't say anywhere,

[00:25:47] we're here because we want our children

[00:25:49] one day to be sexually abused

[00:25:51] and pay a price for that for the rest of their life.

[00:25:53] That wasn't why they joined.

[00:25:56] So what do I say to people like that?

[00:25:57] So no one choose that, yeah?

[00:26:00] There are levels of control.

[00:26:02] There are levels, there is a culture that you never,

[00:26:05] now some people can feel it, that something's off,

[00:26:07] but unless you really unpack it

[00:26:09] and you really understand what's going on

[00:26:11] and how it works,

[00:26:12] it's not so easy to just see why people

[00:26:15] seemingly play along and they play happy.

[00:26:18] Look, just to switch over to Glorielville

[00:26:21] because there's so many parallels.

[00:26:22] So Glorielville still going here in New Zealand,

[00:26:24] actually been going for 40, 50 years.

[00:26:25] No way.

[00:26:26] Shocking if you think of it.

[00:26:27] Oh yeah, can you just explain what Glorielville is

[00:26:30] before we...

[00:26:30] Yeah, all right.

[00:26:31] And what the difference is?

[00:26:32] Think of the most fundamentalist Mormon Christian

[00:26:36] evangelical cult in the US.

[00:26:39] Yeah, put them all in a remote compound,

[00:26:42] put them all in blue dresses

[00:26:45] and that's Glorielville, yeah?

[00:26:47] Okay, and center point?

[00:26:49] Center point existed only until 2000 for about 22 years.

[00:26:54] It was a sex and therapy cult

[00:26:56] and was in different part of New Zealand,

[00:26:58] also a community, but people didn't dress in uniform.

[00:27:01] They were probably more seen as middle class hippies really

[00:27:04] and that was led also by a charismatic leader

[00:27:06] called Bird Potter who actually, who's now dead,

[00:27:10] died around the same time.

[00:27:11] I know, so not quite true,

[00:27:12] but he was operating at the same time

[00:27:15] as the leader of Glorielville.

[00:27:16] They were actually, I've only learned this recently,

[00:27:18] they were actually watching each other really closely

[00:27:21] like who's got the better game to pull people in

[00:27:24] and there were both, one openly

[00:27:26] and the other small inside

[00:27:28] for propagating this sexual openness

[00:27:31] and how we can all free ourselves

[00:27:33] and we embrace our sexual urges more

[00:27:35] and we practice that in a group and in workshops.

[00:27:37] So so interesting that there was this competition.

[00:27:40] You were making a parallel between center point

[00:27:43] and it brings me back to Gloriel.

[00:27:44] Yes, explaining Glorielville, Glorielville, exactly.

[00:27:48] Just for those who don't know.

[00:27:49] So it's just really extremist fundamentalist cult

[00:27:52] and it's still operating here.

[00:27:54] 600 people, most of them are children these days.

[00:27:57] So, you know, a majority of the men,

[00:27:59] women of their members are people who never had a choice.

[00:28:03] They have had a lot of people leave and escape

[00:28:05] and people kicked out

[00:28:06] who've been really, really struggling

[00:28:08] when they come out here in New Zealand

[00:28:09] like refugees in their own country.

[00:28:11] Finally now they're getting good support

[00:28:13] from a victim advocacy group

[00:28:15] and that's really amazing

[00:28:16] but that hasn't happened until the last 10 years or so.

[00:28:20] So it's a massive problem in New Zealand also

[00:28:22] because we don't have the authorities to deal with this.

[00:28:24] And yeah, and people here have to mock Glorielville,

[00:28:28] make jokes about it and part of the problem

[00:28:30] and again back to when people say,

[00:28:32] well, you know, isn't this their choice?

[00:28:35] Well, we had a TV series here in New Zealand.

[00:28:38] I think it's actually done a lot of damage

[00:28:39] that portrayed Glorielville.

[00:28:41] It was an observational documentary,

[00:28:43] flocumentary, mockumentary.

[00:28:46] It was called a documentary

[00:28:47] but I don't really want to call it this

[00:28:49] as a journalist because it was just too uncritical.

[00:28:51] It came out about eight years ago

[00:28:54] and it just portrayed Glorielville

[00:28:55] in this sort of saccharine light of,

[00:28:58] ooh, look at these interesting people in there

[00:29:00] with just an observational religious program here

[00:29:04] observing what they do and their wedding ceremonies

[00:29:07] and their this and their that

[00:29:08] and it was a real fan following around Glorielville.

[00:29:11] New Zealanders are obsessed with it.

[00:29:12] I went to the hairdressers yesterday for this interview.

[00:29:16] Hairdresser, voice of the people,

[00:29:20] asked me what I do in my book and whatnot.

[00:29:22] Ooh, Glorielville and so fascinated by it

[00:29:26] and there's a folklore fascination with Glorielville

[00:29:29] and I think it really takes away from,

[00:29:32] no, they're people and they're suffering.

[00:29:34] This is a gulag.

[00:29:35] These are serious human rights violations

[00:29:37] on a scale that shouldn't be tolerated in a country

[00:29:41] that's seen as a modern country

[00:29:43] when it comes to human rights

[00:29:44] and women's rights especially.

[00:29:46] So that's my long answer again to

[00:29:49] what do you say to people?

[00:29:50] People have often the totally wrong perception

[00:29:52] of how groups like that function

[00:29:55] that people there who come across

[00:29:56] as shiny happy people on TV or wherever,

[00:30:00] they're not.

[00:30:00] There's a front they've been put in front of the camera

[00:30:03] they've been hand selected by the leaders

[00:30:05] to participate in a program like that.

[00:30:07] That is not the reality.

[00:30:08] Well, like I said at the beginning

[00:30:09] I think we have to do our own episode

[00:30:11] on both of those groups

[00:30:12] but if you went from center point

[00:30:14] and then what was your next rabbit hole?

[00:30:16] Next rabbit hole, big jump

[00:30:18] but actually again, lots of parallels

[00:30:20] was a gamma yoga in Thailand.

[00:30:23] It's still going as well

[00:30:24] so it's a Chantric Yoga school.

[00:30:27] It's an offshoot of a Misa

[00:30:29] which is probably the worst sex trafficking

[00:30:33] yoga cult in the world at this stage.

[00:30:38] Their guru has been arrested

[00:30:40] in France last year, Gregorian Bibularu.

[00:30:44] I hope we're going to hear more of them

[00:30:46] and from them in terms of their survivors speaking up.

[00:30:50] So that's the backdrop to a gamma yoga

[00:30:52] started by a Romanian who moved from India

[00:30:55] to Kopanjan, little hub of alternative healing

[00:30:59] and whatnot like Bali.

[00:31:00] You know, it's the place full of crystal shops

[00:31:02] and organic coffee, colonics and...

[00:31:06] Sounds like my kind of jam.

[00:31:08] Sorry. I know right?

[00:31:10] We could have a good holiday together.

[00:31:11] I think we would.

[00:31:12] I got that.

[00:31:13] We'll find all the communities together.

[00:31:14] You guys are drinking green juice together.

[00:31:16] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:19] Sorry I derailed.

[00:31:20] Anyway, it was actually the biggest yoga training center

[00:31:24] as far as I know in the world.

[00:31:26] So lots of international students there.

[00:31:29] They all came there for the yoga, right?

[00:31:31] And also maybe extra attraction,

[00:31:34] the tantra or the neo-tantra

[00:31:36] and that their guru seemed...

[00:31:38] You know, that they could get a bit of that into it.

[00:31:39] And then it was a tantric.

[00:31:43] I was actually when I first heard about it,

[00:31:44] someone said, Oh, I've lived in this tantric community.

[00:31:47] And that was the time when I was still quite fascinated

[00:31:50] and into the contraception scene

[00:31:53] and checked out some of these healers

[00:31:54] and went to a lot of workshops.

[00:31:56] And so I thought, Oh, wow, there's actually

[00:31:58] a tantric community.

[00:32:00] And so years before I ever looked into a gamma yoga

[00:32:03] as a journalist because all these abuse allegations

[00:32:05] come up, I'd already heard about this place on an island

[00:32:08] somewhere in Thailand.

[00:32:09] Interesting.

[00:32:10] So suddenly all this came together

[00:32:12] because a gamma was blown out of the water

[00:32:15] by B. Schofield, an independent investigative cult journalist.

[00:32:19] And these 31 women from a gamma had to contact her

[00:32:23] because they were just desperate

[00:32:25] to finally get the word out there.

[00:32:26] So they had 31 reports about sexual abuse,

[00:32:31] transgressions, including rape by the guru

[00:32:33] and by other lead teachers.

[00:32:35] And I mean, it's a long backstory

[00:32:38] because over years and years and years

[00:32:39] people at gamma had tried again and again

[00:32:41] to change the system from within.

[00:32:43] It's not like this was all suddenly new.

[00:32:46] It was known within a gamma.

[00:32:47] It just came to a head.

[00:32:48] And it's such a symbolic story for me

[00:32:51] because now I see other people trying to change groups

[00:32:54] from within or how can we reform a cult and all of that?

[00:32:58] Well, a gamma clearly it didn't happen.

[00:33:00] It didn't work.

[00:33:01] And people spent years and years

[00:33:03] and got sick over it and lost their income

[00:33:06] and their sanity and whatnot,

[00:33:08] trying to change that place

[00:33:10] because they were so attached to the yoga

[00:33:12] and loved the teachings and had a community there

[00:33:16] and had maybe built their life on teaching there

[00:33:18] or living there for the last 10 years.

[00:33:20] So to actually face the hard realization

[00:33:22] and their teacher is a rapist

[00:33:24] and their whole culture there is a rape culture.

[00:33:27] What to do?

[00:33:28] So it all blew up through B.S. Goldfield

[00:33:30] and then I decided to go there

[00:33:31] because I was on my annual trip back to Germany

[00:33:34] and then together with a guardian

[00:33:36] we had a bit of a joint venture.

[00:33:39] We blew it out of the water.

[00:33:41] I did a big report here from New Zealand

[00:33:43] and for Germany where I work as a foreign correspondent

[00:33:47] for them for German newspapers here from New Zealand as well

[00:33:50] and the Guardian and yeah, it was a massive,

[00:33:53] I think it was a big eruption in the yoga tantra world

[00:33:56] at the time and someone coined the term,

[00:34:00] you know, me too and then coined the term Shri too

[00:34:02] because it happened in Shri Tanu

[00:34:04] was a bit of a turning point in terms of finally,

[00:34:08] it's really on the record or at least,

[00:34:10] you know, media is actually looking into this

[00:34:12] because these allegations about tantric teachers

[00:34:14] also from other schools and in the U.S.

[00:34:16] and around the world.

[00:34:17] I mean, that's the talk and the smaller sort of reports

[00:34:22] and victim advocacy movements had been there before

[00:34:25] but suddenly it was in the Guardian, right?

[00:34:27] And it was something told onto.

[00:34:29] But sad news is even though there were reports

[00:34:33] in over 50 countries, media reports in over 50 countries

[00:34:37] and it did put a big dent into the school's business

[00:34:40] and the guru, the Swami as he was himself fled the country

[00:34:44] but came back conveniently after three months

[00:34:46] when the statute of limitation for rape in Thailand

[00:34:49] at the time had just passed.

[00:34:51] Yeah, right?

[00:34:53] So they're still going

[00:34:54] and I've heard that they really picked up business

[00:34:57] again through COVID with online courses and so on

[00:34:59] because people don't Google, people forget

[00:35:02] or if they're so brainwashed into thinking

[00:35:05] that the media is evil

[00:35:08] and they just wanna get their tantric fix

[00:35:10] and their time on the island like Sarah and I

[00:35:14] like to get it somewhere in a place like that.

[00:35:18] And they end up again in the school

[00:35:20] and everything starts all over again.

[00:35:22] So that's really disheartening to see.

[00:35:23] So I went there in 2018,

[00:35:27] the Swami had just fled the island

[00:35:29] but I talked to a lot of people there,

[00:35:31] I went in there just for one day to a very eerie yoga class

[00:35:35] where I was the only student

[00:35:37] and I really felt like the last passenger on the Titanic

[00:35:41] I went to their kirtan or as another word they use

[00:35:44] anyway, kirtan is the right word

[00:35:46] but they don't chanting.

[00:35:48] Sat sang?

[00:35:49] Yeah, not ceremonial singing in the evening

[00:35:52] and everyone dressed in white

[00:35:54] and it really felt like the orchestra was also still playing

[00:35:57] on that Titanic when I was there

[00:36:00] and it was a very, very weird time of watching a cult

[00:36:04] a group like that to actually be there at the time

[00:36:06] of the after the eruption, after the destruction

[00:36:09] the empire is falling

[00:36:10] and you just see everyone still holding it together inside

[00:36:14] or the rats have left the sinking ship.

[00:36:16] So that was an interesting time

[00:36:17] and then I revisited it all for my book

[00:36:20] did a lot more research also where people are now

[00:36:22] all these years later who had some pretty horrific stories

[00:36:25] also from some people

[00:36:27] and I think this is really quite meaningful

[00:36:29] one man who was one of the accused

[00:36:32] and he had actually really done work to redeem himself

[00:36:36] and I'm really grateful that he gave me some insight

[00:36:39] into what made him that person

[00:36:42] who was then seen as an abuser

[00:36:44] no, it wasn't abuser, some degree for sure

[00:36:46] and what did you do to change that and to make amends?

[00:36:51] So that was also quite significant to me

[00:36:54] to follow that process as well

[00:36:55] of those who've been called out

[00:36:59] because they were part of the same system

[00:37:01] so it became a microcosm again like Centrepoint

[00:37:04] where you have something that started as a wonderful thing

[00:37:09] that goes really bad

[00:37:10] what do the people do afterwards?

[00:37:12] How do they do the repair work?

[00:37:14] Who takes some ownership for the wrong that's happened

[00:37:17] and who just tries and whitewashers

[00:37:19] and I'll tell you what

[00:37:20] Agama has just been trying to

[00:37:22] they have not just been trying to

[00:37:23] they have victim shamed and victim blamed

[00:37:25] and whitewashed themselves and rebranded themselves

[00:37:28] so textbook example for that and they're still going

[00:37:31] What are the parallels?

[00:37:33] Like what language could you say that you notice

[00:37:35] or what do you notice about all three

[00:37:37] that you didn't have an idea about

[00:37:39] before you started Jaren Kory's?

[00:37:41] Yeah, because there are so many parallels

[00:37:43] they all look so different from the outside

[00:37:45] these three groups that I mainly looked into

[00:37:49] the parallels are the victim blaming

[00:37:53] the spiritual bypassing

[00:37:55] it's always on you

[00:37:56] if something goes wrong

[00:37:58] if you have a problem, if you suffer

[00:38:00] if you're not happy here

[00:38:01] if you think something's bad

[00:38:03] bad's happening to you

[00:38:05] well don't come to us and complain

[00:38:08] but you work it out yourself

[00:38:10] you need to work harder

[00:38:11] you need to pray harder

[00:38:12] you need to practice harder

[00:38:13] whatever the modality in the group is

[00:38:15] you've got to do more workshops

[00:38:17] for your therapy

[00:38:18] and maybe do more

[00:38:20] quote unquote sexual healing with bird potter

[00:38:22] which often consists of being drug raped

[00:38:25] because they're manufactured psychedelics

[00:38:27] there that they then truck in group sessions

[00:38:30] or you've got to just work hard on yourself

[00:38:33] and do more karma yoga if you're enogama

[00:38:36] and at Loweva, you know, you pray harder

[00:38:39] you confess more

[00:38:41] you do all the typical fundamentalist Christian things

[00:38:45] so I think that is the common denominator

[00:38:48] in all those groups

[00:38:48] and I see it perpetuated again and again

[00:38:51] when I look around me now

[00:38:52] and some of the operating new age

[00:38:55] conscious sexuality groups

[00:38:56] also here in New Zealand and worldwide

[00:38:58] where that's also baked into the tapestry

[00:39:02] that's the common denominator

[00:39:03] and the other common denominator

[00:39:04] of course just for those three

[00:39:05] is the controlling of people's sex lives

[00:39:09] and by control amplifying

[00:39:10] can also be a form of control

[00:39:12] so you would think something like a

[00:39:14] you know, free love, commune

[00:39:17] and I'm say this

[00:39:19] you know with all the facetiousness in my voice

[00:39:23] and a center point

[00:39:25] that there wouldn't be any control

[00:39:26] but actually putting it on people

[00:39:29] that they have to be promiscuous

[00:39:31] is a form of creating a sexual dogma

[00:39:33] and also at agama

[00:39:35] it was very much that

[00:39:36] you had to open up your relationship

[00:39:38] the women who were polyamorous

[00:39:40] and the men were seen as the more evolved tantric lovers

[00:39:44] there was a whole this whole language

[00:39:46] around practicing tantra

[00:39:48] it was supposed to be really detached

[00:39:50] there was no encouragement

[00:39:52] of having romantic partners

[00:39:53] it was all about practicing tantra

[00:39:55] and doing all this practice

[00:39:56] so again a very over sexualized culture

[00:39:59] and then you have Gloria Bell

[00:40:00] where this is all done in the

[00:40:02] well basically in the marital bedroom

[00:40:04] but in the early days

[00:40:05] they also had these group sessions for couples

[00:40:07] where then you know

[00:40:08] the leader would probably get off on watching all his

[00:40:12] you know, watching his flock

[00:40:13] practicing their whatever marital activities

[00:40:17] or however they framed it

[00:40:18] so again the red thread through all these groups

[00:40:22] is also the control or amplification of sexuality

[00:40:26] I also really clearly saw that any

[00:40:28] stating of a boundary was an entry point for shame

[00:40:32] oh yes

[00:40:33] and isn't that interesting

[00:40:34] especially if you're in groups where

[00:40:37] there's now a lot of talk

[00:40:38] I can see this, you know

[00:40:39] in the present a lot too

[00:40:41] when you're in groups where there's a lot of focus action

[00:40:43] on boundary work

[00:40:44] or they practice the will of consent

[00:40:47] in the beginning or something

[00:40:48] and so you're under this force impression

[00:40:50] of knowing how to set a boundary

[00:40:53] oh we teach you how to say yes or no

[00:40:54] in two hours

[00:40:56] I've seen this at one taste for instance

[00:40:58] I did the entry course

[00:40:59] so they run you through a nice little exercise

[00:41:01] which is totally makes sense

[00:41:04] of practicing your boundaries

[00:41:05] practicing yes or no

[00:41:06] everyone should do it

[00:41:07] this is not just about touch

[00:41:08] or orgasmic meditation or whatever

[00:41:11] you know it's good for anything

[00:41:12] but you don't just

[00:41:13] it's not like you suddenly rewire yourself

[00:41:15] in two hours in a workshop after your whole life

[00:41:17] especially as a woman and a nice person

[00:41:19] and maybe in New Zealand where people tend to say

[00:41:21] you know just be more maybe

[00:41:24] accommodating and polite

[00:41:25] yeah you don't just learn how to

[00:41:28] how to rewire yourself

[00:41:30] yeah and then so there's almost that sort of

[00:41:34] thick leaf of well

[00:41:35] it's all a new know

[00:41:37] you can give your consent

[00:41:38] you've learned it

[00:41:39] and then you're taken

[00:41:41] through these algae

[00:41:43] it's large group of awareness training

[00:41:44] so again this is I think true for a lot of different modalities

[00:41:48] and groups

[00:41:48] where they you fill out forms beforehand

[00:41:51] are you aware of your boundaries

[00:41:52] you know how to get you can do this in that

[00:41:54] or they give you a little intro at the beginning

[00:41:56] I mean most groups these days call themselves trauma

[00:41:59] informed to some degree

[00:42:00] or everyone's heard about consent

[00:42:02] you know you'd be very

[00:42:03] you'd be really limping behind

[00:42:05] if you wouldn't introduce that

[00:42:06] it's some state early on

[00:42:07] just maybe even just for appearances

[00:42:09] and for legal reasons

[00:42:10] so you check those boxes

[00:42:12] oh yeah you know trauma consent done

[00:42:15] and then you're thrown into the cauldron

[00:42:19] with all the intensity

[00:42:20] with a lot of content

[00:42:21] that no one told you about before

[00:42:22] that that would happen

[00:42:23] and it would be so confrontational

[00:42:25] and so many people will be naked

[00:42:26] and they'll be screaming and yelling

[00:42:28] and whatnot

[00:42:29] you're totally out of your comfort zone

[00:42:31] you're overwhelmed

[00:42:32] you probably don't sleep enough

[00:42:33] you never you know

[00:42:34] you don't get time off

[00:42:35] in some groups

[00:42:36] you're absolutely shamed

[00:42:37] if at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock

[00:42:39] and now you want to actually

[00:42:40] head to bed and get some

[00:42:41] get some sleep

[00:42:42] I've been there I've seen that happening

[00:42:44] but afterwards

[00:42:45] if you're not happy

[00:42:46] and you're struggling

[00:42:47] or the next morning

[00:42:48] or something comes up in the sharing circle

[00:42:50] where you honestly say

[00:42:52] oh this was too much for me

[00:42:53] I really suffered

[00:42:54] or I couldn't I couldn't stand

[00:42:55] seeing my partner

[00:42:56] getting close to someone else

[00:42:58] in that added exercise

[00:42:59] and it really brought up

[00:43:00] this and this

[00:43:01] because you think

[00:43:02] this is an environment

[00:43:03] where you can now safely share

[00:43:05] because everyone said

[00:43:05] this is all about openers

[00:43:06] and taking off your mask

[00:43:08] and being the real you

[00:43:10] so you do that

[00:43:11] and then

[00:43:12] boom

[00:43:13] the suggestion

[00:43:14] or the feedback is

[00:43:15] mm you're wrong

[00:43:17] right this is not how we do it here

[00:43:19] you just got to do more

[00:43:20] of what we're teaching you

[00:43:21] and then you won't have those

[00:43:22] negative feelings about us

[00:43:24] or about yourself

[00:43:25] so this is how it works

[00:43:27] and not only that

[00:43:28] but the feedback quote

[00:43:30] from your book

[00:43:31] is a gift

[00:43:32] am I right

[00:43:33] take it as a gift

[00:43:34] well center point was really

[00:43:36] they had there

[00:43:37] they had these these little sayings

[00:43:39] they had a thing

[00:43:41] I think maybe it's from Gestalt Therapy

[00:43:42] I'm not 100% sure

[00:43:44] but feedback

[00:43:45] you know you

[00:43:46] and I mean feedback is a great thing

[00:43:47] okay I'll be wrong

[00:43:48] I'm awful transparency

[00:43:49] and honesty

[00:43:50] I come from Germany

[00:43:50] where people are

[00:43:51] quite erect and in your face

[00:43:53] and I had to really adjust

[00:43:54] in my 20 years here as a

[00:43:56] as a New Zealander now

[00:43:58] I had to really adjust to

[00:43:59] saying things between the lines

[00:44:01] not being so outspoken

[00:44:03] but then the center point feedback

[00:44:05] was that

[00:44:05] you're entitled to

[00:44:07] just go up to anybody

[00:44:08] at any time

[00:44:09] and in their face

[00:44:10] just tell them what you think of them

[00:44:11] and this also includes

[00:44:12] adults towards

[00:44:14] teenagers for instance

[00:44:15] who didn't have a choice to live there

[00:44:17] who hadn't

[00:44:18] you know hadn't

[00:44:19] they weren't even matured yet

[00:44:20] and they would hear all these things

[00:44:22] like oh

[00:44:22] this is how you come across

[00:44:23] this is what I think about you

[00:44:25] my children

[00:44:25] bum bum bum bum

[00:44:26] they would be put in their place

[00:44:27] so they would be

[00:44:28] hard hit with some

[00:44:30] pretty heavy verbal stuff

[00:44:31] now

[00:44:32] there was no chance to go

[00:44:33] say

[00:44:33] El

[00:44:34] what

[00:44:35] and this is what I think about you

[00:44:36] and this is how you pissed me off

[00:44:38] the last three weeks

[00:44:39] when you didn't do the dishes

[00:44:40] or whatever

[00:44:40] no

[00:44:41] you have to take it as a gift

[00:44:43] right

[00:44:44] and and it's so toxic

[00:44:45] humiliating

[00:44:46] it's kind of like the therapy

[00:44:48] twist of

[00:44:49] spiritual bypassing

[00:44:50] if that

[00:44:51] if that makes sense

[00:44:52] that

[00:44:53] whatever happens

[00:44:54] whatever you're not happy with

[00:44:56] is

[00:44:57] is your fault

[00:44:58] to work through

[00:44:58] right

[00:44:59] it's a gift for growth

[00:45:00] right

[00:45:00] you know the universe has provided you

[00:45:02] with something

[00:45:03] wonderful here to look at

[00:45:05] isn't that gold

[00:45:05] isn't that wonderful

[00:45:06] shouldn't we all be happy

[00:45:07] that we have this experience

[00:45:08] well maybe you just book another course

[00:45:10] for another two grand

[00:45:11] and you can learn even more right

[00:45:13] oh so convenient

[00:45:14] yeah

[00:45:15] and now

[00:45:15] a brief message from our

[00:45:17] little bit culty sponsors

[00:45:26] you've heard from our sponsors

[00:45:27] now let's get back to

[00:45:28] a little bit culty shall we

[00:45:31] in next year

[00:45:31] and we would say that

[00:45:32] Nipi

[00:45:33] about feedback

[00:45:34] all feedbacks valid

[00:45:36] yeah

[00:45:36] all feedbacks valid

[00:45:37] all feedbacks valid

[00:45:39] and if you got feedback

[00:45:40] that was totally not true

[00:45:41] and you were upset about it

[00:45:42] then you need to look at that

[00:45:43] because why would you be upset

[00:45:44] about something

[00:45:46] that somebody thought about you

[00:45:47] if it wasn't true

[00:45:47] that's a pride issue

[00:45:48] that's an ego issue

[00:45:49] so yeah

[00:45:50] we had the same thing

[00:45:51] you totally had the crash course

[00:45:53] and every time I've listened

[00:45:54] you know to your

[00:45:55] to your episodes

[00:45:56] I'm

[00:45:57] not thinking why

[00:45:58] you really had it on

[00:45:59] on steroids

[00:46:00] this whole

[00:46:01] thinking this whole philosophy

[00:46:02] and at some degree

[00:46:03] I mean on some level

[00:46:05] I guess especially in the

[00:46:05] in the beginning

[00:46:06] it can be very

[00:46:08] helpful or liberating

[00:46:09] you think well actually

[00:46:11] I can change

[00:46:12] yeah there's an initial hit

[00:46:13] yeah

[00:46:14] yeah right

[00:46:14] there are things that

[00:46:15] they can really help me

[00:46:16] especially if you come out

[00:46:17] of so much resentment

[00:46:18] look I mean let's face it

[00:46:19] a lot of us go on those

[00:46:20] trainings

[00:46:21] I've done something called

[00:46:23] life training

[00:46:24] it's a bit landmarkish

[00:46:25] but not quite as full on

[00:46:27] but pretty much the same stuff

[00:46:28] over weekend

[00:46:29] more to life training

[00:46:31] and of course

[00:46:32] you know you always bring

[00:46:32] something with you

[00:46:33] some resentment

[00:46:34] about your parents

[00:46:35] you know or whatever it is

[00:46:36] you come up with something

[00:46:37] otherwise you wouldn't

[00:46:38] you were spending that money

[00:46:39] and go and spend a whole weekend

[00:46:41] with strangers

[00:46:42] you know yelling on a stage

[00:46:43] or so

[00:46:44] so then you get

[00:46:46] it's a total

[00:46:49] a ha moment

[00:46:49] and a big relief

[00:46:50] if you then actually feel

[00:46:52] like oh no

[00:46:52] something shifted

[00:46:53] I don't have these awful

[00:46:54] feelings about my

[00:46:55] my dad anymore

[00:46:56] I don't have the hang up

[00:46:57] about this issue anymore

[00:46:58] how fantastic

[00:46:59] so it does

[00:47:00] it is great to

[00:47:02] to see that

[00:47:03] there are

[00:47:03] there are tools

[00:47:04] where you can move things

[00:47:05] forward in your own

[00:47:06] psyche

[00:47:07] in your

[00:47:08] emotions

[00:47:09] in your life

[00:47:10] maybe work them out

[00:47:11] with others

[00:47:12] but if it becomes this

[00:47:13] prescriptive thing

[00:47:14] that you have to see

[00:47:15] everything through

[00:47:16] is almost like

[00:47:17] when are the tools

[00:47:18] working for you

[00:47:19] or when are you working

[00:47:20] for those tools

[00:47:20] like you guys have

[00:47:22] for you know

[00:47:23] for an organisation

[00:47:24] when are you working

[00:47:25] for the system

[00:47:26] and the system

[00:47:26] is not helping you anymore

[00:47:28] and that line

[00:47:28] gets blurred so quickly

[00:47:30] and by the time

[00:47:31] you're kind of sabotaging

[00:47:32] yourself

[00:47:33] and what you would really need

[00:47:34] it's often too late

[00:47:35] because you're so sold

[00:47:36] that you're hooked up

[00:47:37] or you've signed up

[00:47:38] for the next thing

[00:47:39] you have to make it work

[00:47:41] yes

[00:47:41] to justify the investment

[00:47:43] right

[00:47:43] right

[00:47:44] yeah the sunk cost fallacy

[00:47:45] yep

[00:47:46] yeah

[00:47:46] and also

[00:47:47] you're going up the path

[00:47:49] you have incentives

[00:47:49] incentive

[00:47:50] like it was shocked actually

[00:47:51] that Agama had a

[00:47:53] a straight path

[00:47:54] they had the rainbows

[00:47:55] the sashes

[00:47:56] the sashes

[00:47:57] everything

[00:47:58] yeah I found out

[00:47:58] I wonder if there was a text

[00:47:59] thread with all these people

[00:48:01] on somewhere

[00:48:01] Keith is like hey

[00:48:02] swami

[00:48:03] what are you doing over there

[00:48:03] and are you doing the sashes

[00:48:05] yeah I'm gonna do the sashes too

[00:48:07] okay cool

[00:48:07] yeah it's all the same

[00:48:09] now you must say

[00:48:11] he's probably done some homework

[00:48:12] on some stuff

[00:48:14] I think they've introduced another level

[00:48:15] from what I just

[00:48:17] when I

[00:48:17] when I've wrapped up my book

[00:48:18] and I did my last

[00:48:19] sort of round of

[00:48:20] research around Agama

[00:48:22] I heard that they've just introduced

[00:48:24] another level

[00:48:25] yeah

[00:48:25] another level of

[00:48:27] of sashes

[00:48:27] and bullshit

[00:48:28] and again

[00:48:29] it always pulls you further

[00:48:30] I've heard this from the former students

[00:48:31] there's also carrot dangling

[00:48:33] in front of you

[00:48:34] that there's a next level

[00:48:35] and there's secrecy around that

[00:48:36] this will all be revealed to you

[00:48:38] once you

[00:48:39] once you're ready for it

[00:48:39] it will all be revealed

[00:48:41] but you're not to know this yet

[00:48:42] which creates these hierarchies

[00:48:43] so

[00:48:44] again looking at

[00:48:46] the common thread of these three groups

[00:48:47] Centerpoint, Agama, Yoga

[00:48:49] and Gloewe also these strong hierarchies

[00:48:52] Centerpoint had something

[00:48:53] really insidious

[00:48:55] that I've seen

[00:48:56] replicated in smaller ways

[00:48:58] in some

[00:48:59] Neutantra groups as well

[00:49:00] like what are they called

[00:49:01] TNT

[00:49:02] the new tantra

[00:49:02] one of the

[00:49:03] one of the worst

[00:49:04] I've ever

[00:49:05] visited as a

[00:49:06] semi-professional

[00:49:07] sex cult tourist

[00:49:08] so the hierarchy at Centerpoint

[00:49:10] was something

[00:49:11] they had actually brought over

[00:49:13] in the 80s

[00:49:14] from a similar group

[00:49:15] that was running in Austria at the time

[00:49:17] Otto Müll's

[00:49:18] Friedrichshof

[00:49:19] which was a

[00:49:20] even more extreme

[00:49:22] sex cult

[00:49:22] not sex and therapy

[00:49:23] but sex and art

[00:49:24] because their

[00:49:26] founder was this

[00:49:27] crazy artist

[00:49:28] who was the Enfant Terribu

[00:49:30] in

[00:49:31] in Vienna at the time

[00:49:32] and actually a lot of people still

[00:49:33] buy his pictures

[00:49:35] and think he's the

[00:49:36] he's the real deal

[00:49:37] and he set up this really extreme

[00:49:39] community

[00:49:39] people all shaved their

[00:49:41] the hair off

[00:49:41] or were this uniform

[00:49:43] dungarees

[00:49:43] they had

[00:49:44] rosters

[00:49:45] every night

[00:49:45] like who need to share the bed with him

[00:49:47] to prevent

[00:49:48] people from

[00:49:49] you know

[00:49:49] actually becoming couples

[00:49:50] it was just absolutely awful

[00:49:51] and abusive

[00:49:52] anyway

[00:49:53] Centerpoint thought

[00:49:54] oh these are

[00:49:55] these are

[00:49:56] these are friends over there

[00:49:57] visited them in the 80s

[00:49:58] came back with some

[00:49:59] wild idea

[00:50:00] that they also wanted to implement

[00:50:02] in

[00:50:03] at Centerpoint

[00:50:04] but only one

[00:50:04] one of those ideas actually

[00:50:06] flew and that was the hierarchy

[00:50:08] where people

[00:50:09] also children

[00:50:10] youngsters

[00:50:11] teenagers were lined up every week

[00:50:13] and had to put themselves

[00:50:14] in the positions that they think

[00:50:16] where they should be

[00:50:17] in the

[00:50:18] basically in the hierarchy

[00:50:19] of the group

[00:50:20] how they've performed

[00:50:21] where they belong

[00:50:22] so

[00:50:23] this very brutally

[00:50:24] Darwinistic approach

[00:50:26] because that was

[00:50:26] you know

[00:50:27] they tried to almost live like an

[00:50:29] like an old

[00:50:30] old tribe

[00:50:31] and the

[00:50:32] you know

[00:50:33] in the days of

[00:50:34] the leader of the pack

[00:50:35] and

[00:50:36] they wanted to experiment with these

[00:50:38] with these social

[00:50:40] with these social dynamics

[00:50:41] of group living

[00:50:42] but in the most radical way

[00:50:43] so let's go back to

[00:50:45] to the old tribes

[00:50:46] let's see what that's like

[00:50:47] so they put people in these

[00:50:49] hierarchies

[00:50:50] and thus

[00:50:50] that's

[00:50:51] that destroyed

[00:50:52] in

[00:50:52] it destroyed people

[00:50:53] and I know that

[00:50:54] for fact

[00:50:55] that some of the

[00:50:56] sexual abuse

[00:50:57] that happened

[00:50:58] to

[00:50:59] the children there

[00:51:00] and the young people

[00:51:01] and a third of the children

[00:51:02] in the center point actually were

[00:51:03] sexual abuse

[00:51:03] that was later established

[00:51:04] through a study

[00:51:06] a lot of

[00:51:06] that also happened

[00:51:07] because of the hierarchy

[00:51:08] and because of the adults

[00:51:10] that were so

[00:51:13] dehumanized

[00:51:13] and broken

[00:51:14] that their resistance

[00:51:16] to speak up

[00:51:17] or to prevent some of that

[00:51:18] from happening

[00:51:18] or to protect their children

[00:51:19] was completely taken away

[00:51:21] so

[00:51:22] I saw this

[00:51:23] I saw this

[00:51:23] replicated in a group

[00:51:25] yeah

[00:51:25] TNT

[00:51:26] the new Tantra

[00:51:27] in Holland

[00:51:28] on

[00:51:28] when I visited one

[00:51:29] of their courses

[00:51:30] in a smaller way

[00:51:31] just

[00:51:31] got all my alarm bells ringing

[00:51:32] I mean the whole

[00:51:33] the whole weekend was just

[00:51:35] one constant alarm bell

[00:51:37] but at the end

[00:51:38] the last day

[00:51:39] they ranked everybody

[00:51:41] you actually got it

[00:51:41] there was a ranking

[00:51:43] in front of everybody

[00:51:44] a public ranking

[00:51:44] I don't know if you

[00:51:45] guys had that too

[00:51:47] with nexium

[00:51:48] where

[00:51:49] where

[00:51:49] where you

[00:51:50] you were told

[00:51:50] in front of everyone

[00:51:51] whether you made the cut

[00:51:52] or not

[00:51:52] they had a number

[00:51:53] they had a grade for you

[00:51:54] and

[00:51:55] you could just tell

[00:51:56] why certain people

[00:51:57] made the cut

[00:51:57] and others didn't

[00:51:58] and but then you could

[00:51:59] you could maybe

[00:52:00] do another course

[00:52:01] so catch up

[00:52:01] and then get in again

[00:52:02] it was just awful

[00:52:03] and I thought

[00:52:04] here we go again

[00:52:05] have people

[00:52:05] have nothing

[00:52:06] from this historical cults

[00:52:08] was something like

[00:52:08] a public ranking

[00:52:10] a hierarchy

[00:52:12] a humiliating process

[00:52:13] of public

[00:52:15] shaming and grading

[00:52:16] just creates so much

[00:52:17] toxicity

[00:52:18] in the group

[00:52:19] and conformity

[00:52:20] have they not

[00:52:20] learned anything

[00:52:21] and no

[00:52:21] they haven't

[00:52:22] right

[00:52:22] it wasn't

[00:52:23] through the whole curriculum

[00:52:24] but there was one training

[00:52:25] called

[00:52:25] 2A Anatomy of Mind and Body

[00:52:27] whatever

[00:52:28] F that means

[00:52:29] but

[00:52:30] look back now

[00:52:31] between every break

[00:52:32] because we had

[00:52:33] like our structure

[00:52:33] was breakout groups

[00:52:34] like 3 to 5

[00:52:35] 6 people in a

[00:52:37] circle

[00:52:37] with led by a coach

[00:52:38] discussing something

[00:52:40] and before every group

[00:52:41] we rated

[00:52:41] and ranked

[00:52:43] everyone

[00:52:43] in the group

[00:52:44] on top

[00:52:45] like most to least

[00:52:47] intelligent

[00:52:48] sexy

[00:52:49] honest

[00:52:50] there were some other categories

[00:52:51] remember what they were

[00:52:52] mm

[00:52:53] ooh it was horrific

[00:52:54] it was

[00:52:55] I did talk about this moment

[00:52:56] in my book

[00:52:56] because

[00:52:57] there was

[00:52:58] my boyfriend at the time

[00:52:59] rated

[00:53:00] Nikola

[00:53:01] who I love now

[00:53:01] he's one of my good friends

[00:53:03] more attractive than me

[00:53:04] and I was

[00:53:05] quite devastated

[00:53:06] at the time

[00:53:06] but now we laugh

[00:53:08] Nikola and I are still friends

[00:53:10] but anyway

[00:53:10] but it's horrific

[00:53:11] it was actually

[00:53:11] really very challenging

[00:53:13] we were in that training together

[00:53:14] weren't we?

[00:53:14] I don't know

[00:53:15] no you were there

[00:53:16] was I?

[00:53:16] yeah

[00:53:17] I definitely rated

[00:53:18] it be most attractive

[00:53:19] but

[00:53:19] in my head

[00:53:20] she's

[00:53:22] she's science

[00:53:23] her

[00:53:23] she's science

[00:53:25] anyway

[00:53:25] for these

[00:53:25] these hierarchies

[00:53:26] because coming

[00:53:27] with so many reforms

[00:53:28] right

[00:53:28] and a

[00:53:28] glory value

[00:53:29] you have really strong hierarchies

[00:53:30] in terms of the families

[00:53:32] that are more

[00:53:33] they look down on other families

[00:53:34] you have the

[00:53:35] leaders group

[00:53:36] and then

[00:53:36] that also

[00:53:37] still carries on

[00:53:38] when people are on the outside

[00:53:39] which I find quite interesting

[00:53:40] that you can actually see

[00:53:41] how this little fiefdom

[00:53:42] how these little

[00:53:43] you know

[00:53:44] animal farms

[00:53:46] that are created inside

[00:53:48] it there always

[00:53:49] hierarchy is a

[00:53:50] big part of it

[00:53:51] and I mean

[00:53:51] not

[00:53:52] not a

[00:53:52] not a healthier hierarchy

[00:53:53] not one that's

[00:53:54] been earned or

[00:53:55] now comes from actual

[00:53:56] doing

[00:53:57] not a meritocracy

[00:53:58] yeah

[00:53:59] yeah exactly

[00:54:00] yeah

[00:54:00] so where are we now

[00:54:01] yeah

[00:54:02] what have you gleaned

[00:54:03] from this whole

[00:54:04] ordeal

[00:54:05] of a journey

[00:54:06] and are you hopeful

[00:54:07] a lot of disillusionment

[00:54:08] and

[00:54:10] you know

[00:54:10] part of me sometimes

[00:54:11] still wishes I had my

[00:54:12] innocent spec

[00:54:13] and I could just go

[00:54:14] to some of these

[00:54:16] and not necessary courses

[00:54:17] but maybe

[00:54:18] some of the festivals

[00:54:19] or saw that I used

[00:54:20] to frequent more

[00:54:21] or some workshops

[00:54:22] or some

[00:54:23] more sort of innocent

[00:54:25] playful

[00:54:25] spaces

[00:54:26] I've become

[00:54:27] very

[00:54:28] picky and very discerning

[00:54:29] and even

[00:54:31] even a humble meditation course

[00:54:33] I can be critical

[00:54:34] if I think there's too much

[00:54:35] of this or too much of that

[00:54:38] and

[00:54:39] so I've gleaned again

[00:54:40] I guess I've leaned

[00:54:41] the a lot of understanding

[00:54:42] of those dynamics

[00:54:44] I mean

[00:54:44] I'm obviously not an expert

[00:54:45] I've just someone who's come

[00:54:46] to close

[00:54:47] so I'm even running

[00:54:49] little workshops

[00:54:50] at festivals sometimes

[00:54:51] in New Zealand

[00:54:52] called how not to start

[00:54:53] a cult

[00:54:54] just to give some

[00:54:54] people some insight

[00:54:55] on the red flags

[00:54:57] I've gleaned that

[00:54:57] knowledge

[00:54:58] and it comes with grief

[00:54:59] and a sense of loss

[00:55:00] and where to

[00:55:02] I can so relate

[00:55:03] to the cult hoppers

[00:55:04] I can relate to people

[00:55:06] who've been in something

[00:55:07] far bigger than I have

[00:55:09] I haven't even

[00:55:10] you know

[00:55:10] I still wouldn't

[00:55:12] it's still hard for me

[00:55:13] to even reframe

[00:55:14] my own experiences

[00:55:15] as cultic experiences

[00:55:16] because I wasn't

[00:55:18] harmed

[00:55:18] or I'm not a

[00:55:20] survivor

[00:55:20] a survivor

[00:55:21] or a victim

[00:55:22] of those groups

[00:55:23] and still

[00:55:24] I have this

[00:55:25] I get

[00:55:26] a little

[00:55:27] glimpse of

[00:55:29] the grief

[00:55:29] the loss

[00:55:30] the confusion

[00:55:32] of

[00:55:33] wow

[00:55:33] I did

[00:55:34] move in a paradise

[00:55:35] or

[00:55:36] kind of what I thought

[00:55:37] was a paradise

[00:55:38] at this

[00:55:38] at the time

[00:55:39] I had entry

[00:55:40] to the Garden of Eden

[00:55:41] and then I left it

[00:55:42] and

[00:55:43] well

[00:55:43] where to from here

[00:55:44] right

[00:55:45] so it took a long time

[00:55:46] even to just

[00:55:47] to be okay

[00:55:48] with just the mundane

[00:55:49] but what I've gleaned

[00:55:50] is that we're all susceptible

[00:55:52] what I've gleaned

[00:55:52] is that

[00:55:53] we could all be

[00:55:54] part of something

[00:55:55] that we didn't see coming

[00:55:56] because we all have an achilles heel

[00:55:57] where something can land

[00:55:58] no one's immune

[00:55:59] so I've really learned

[00:56:00] there's another shining example of that

[00:56:01] I mean I'm a journalist

[00:56:02] for starters

[00:56:04] I've become a cult journalist

[00:56:05] and still

[00:56:06] I went through a few things

[00:56:08] and they were really important in my life

[00:56:09] and I was

[00:56:10] evangelical about them

[00:56:12] that now

[00:56:13] I actually see as very culty

[00:56:15] so

[00:56:16] does that

[00:56:16] whatever I gleaned is

[00:56:18] let's change

[00:56:19] also let's change

[00:56:20] the way how we report about cults

[00:56:22] let's make cult journals

[00:56:24] a more important part of

[00:56:26] mainstream media

[00:56:27] because it's still so fringe

[00:56:28] it's still so niche

[00:56:30] usually what we see

[00:56:31] I mean it's changed

[00:56:31] and also thanks to you guys

[00:56:33] a lot has changed

[00:56:34] over the last 10 years

[00:56:35] I have to say

[00:56:36] the quality of documentaries

[00:56:37] the quality of reporting

[00:56:39] has changed

[00:56:39] me too

[00:56:40] has changed that

[00:56:41] but

[00:56:42] here in New Zealand

[00:56:43] again and again

[00:56:43] because

[00:56:44] behind the scenes

[00:56:45] is someone who's

[00:56:46] often a liaison between

[00:56:47] survivors

[00:56:48] and victims

[00:56:49] and then

[00:56:50] journalists

[00:56:50] who I trust

[00:56:51] and I put someone into their

[00:56:52] hands

[00:56:52] just because I can't do all these

[00:56:54] investigations anymore

[00:56:56] I also see how little actually comes out

[00:56:59] and how

[00:56:59] how straight

[00:57:00] just often because the resources are

[00:57:02] there

[00:57:02] because the litigation risk is too high

[00:57:05] and

[00:57:05] and that's the problem

[00:57:06] because

[00:57:06] we need better reporting

[00:57:08] about these things

[00:57:08] we need better understanding

[00:57:10] we need more cult education in general

[00:57:12] the journalists too

[00:57:13] journalists need more cult education

[00:57:14] yeah

[00:57:14] judiciary needs more cult education

[00:57:16] totally agree

[00:57:17] needs more cult education

[00:57:19] and you know what

[00:57:20] this is actually

[00:57:21] this is my latest thing

[00:57:22] I'm actually organizing the first

[00:57:24] cult awareness conference here in New Zealand

[00:57:27] called

[00:57:27] DICART

[00:57:28] and we're bringing

[00:57:29] cult experts like

[00:57:30] Janja Lalic

[00:57:31] and

[00:57:31] G. J. Jensen

[00:57:33] over to actually introduce

[00:57:34] cult recovery therapy

[00:57:36] and also to

[00:57:38] invite government officials

[00:57:39] and the police and others

[00:57:41] to come

[00:57:42] and actually get some

[00:57:43] cult education because

[00:57:45] going back to Gloraville

[00:57:46] there have been court cases

[00:57:47] a few years ago

[00:57:49] where clearly

[00:57:50] justice wasn't done

[00:57:51] it was maybe even a miscarriage of

[00:57:53] justice

[00:57:53] where things are so delayed

[00:57:55] because

[00:57:56] the judiciary

[00:57:57] did not understand

[00:57:58] how a young woman

[00:57:59] from Gloraville

[00:58:00] reacts in court

[00:58:02] and is not

[00:58:03] the same as another woman

[00:58:05] who's been brought up

[00:58:06] in middle New Zealand

[00:58:08] not an occult like Gloraville

[00:58:09] so this is so lacking

[00:58:10] and it actually leads to

[00:58:12] you know it can distort

[00:58:13] the course of justice

[00:58:14] it can

[00:58:15] it has so many ripple effects to

[00:58:18] anyway I could go on and on

[00:58:19] but anyway this is

[00:58:20] this is what I've also learned

[00:58:21] is we need to do something about this

[00:58:23] so hey let's have a cult

[00:58:24] conference in New Zealand

[00:58:26] bring some people here

[00:58:27] international ones

[00:58:28] let's talk about this

[00:58:29] and hopefully raise awareness

[00:58:30] where can people find out

[00:58:31] about decult

[00:58:33] great title by the way

[00:58:34] it's a new verb

[00:58:35] great

[00:58:35] they can find us on

[00:58:37] decult.net

[00:58:39] and

[00:58:40] they can find

[00:58:40] all the info

[00:58:41] and ticket registration

[00:58:42] everything there

[00:58:43] it's going to be live streamed

[00:58:44] around the world

[00:58:44] and I hope you guys will watch it

[00:58:46] for sure

[00:58:46] absolutely

[00:58:47] absolutely

[00:58:48] and where

[00:58:48] and people can find your book

[00:58:49] wherever books are sold

[00:58:50] it's on audible

[00:58:51] I listen to it

[00:58:52] even though you said it to me

[00:58:53] as our audience knows

[00:58:54] I like to listen

[00:58:55] I like to hold it

[00:58:56] and together we have

[00:58:58] perfect experience

[00:59:00] so one of the main takeaways

[00:59:01] I had from reading your book

[00:59:02] is just how hard it is

[00:59:06] if not

[00:59:06] if maybe even impossible

[00:59:08] to have consent

[00:59:09] in a hierarchy

[00:59:11] in this way

[00:59:12] where

[00:59:12] you know specifically

[00:59:14] there's a power differential

[00:59:15] and it's not an earned hierarchy

[00:59:17] and perhaps even the person at the top

[00:59:19] has not the best interests

[00:59:21] of the lower members

[00:59:22] of the hierarchy in mind

[00:59:24] so what is the antidote

[00:59:25] to being a

[00:59:26] somebody who wants to explore

[00:59:28] their sexuality

[00:59:29] in this way

[00:59:29] well just back to

[00:59:31] packed back to the hierarchy

[00:59:33] and what you just said

[00:59:34] the first part of the question

[00:59:37] the hierarchy isn't obvious

[00:59:38] isn't always so obvious

[00:59:40] it's not always as obvious

[00:59:41] it is

[00:59:41] as it is

[00:59:42] and let's say

[00:59:43] a gamma yoga

[00:59:44] you know

[00:59:44] where you have all the ranks

[00:59:45] in the sessions

[00:59:46] if you go into an environment

[00:59:47] where

[00:59:49] they tell you we're all adults here

[00:59:50] we all you know

[00:59:51] we can

[00:59:51] we're all consenting adults here

[00:59:54] but the power differential

[00:59:56] isn't

[00:59:57] named

[00:59:57] that you are still a paying

[00:59:58] participant

[00:59:59] and the other person there

[01:00:00] in the sexy embrace

[01:00:01] with you

[01:00:02] or eye gazing with you

[01:00:03] is the teacher

[01:00:04] or is an

[01:00:06] assistant at least

[01:00:06] or facilitator

[01:00:08] and then

[01:00:09] they say things like

[01:00:10] oh the field is open

[01:00:12] which means

[01:00:13] you are now invited or

[01:00:15] I mean

[01:00:16] encouraged

[01:00:17] empowered

[01:00:17] whatever you want to call it

[01:00:19] maybe

[01:00:20] engage in some erotic way with

[01:00:23] someone

[01:00:23] or you know

[01:00:24] practice some

[01:00:25] conscious touch exercises

[01:00:26] however far you want to go

[01:00:29] including

[01:00:30] the facilitators

[01:00:32] and in their books

[01:00:33] or how they

[01:00:35] justified

[01:00:36] they're not approaching you

[01:00:37] it's coming from you

[01:00:38] so if you want to have an

[01:00:39] experience with them

[01:00:40] also outside of the

[01:00:42] course room

[01:00:42] maybe later on

[01:00:44] where you chose this

[01:00:45] that is here to provide

[01:00:46] right

[01:00:47] and give you some of there

[01:00:48] maybe in an amazing

[01:00:50] healing

[01:00:50] slash magic penis

[01:00:52] yep okay

[01:00:53] sorry

[01:00:53] yeah magic wand

[01:00:54] the magic wand

[01:00:55] right

[01:00:55] doing the rounds

[01:00:57] and I've seen

[01:00:57] it's like a harem culture

[01:00:59] and women basically lining up

[01:01:01] in the

[01:01:02] outside the bedroom

[01:01:03] of the main dude

[01:01:06] and still believing

[01:01:09] oh we're all equals here

[01:01:10] well they're not

[01:01:11] right

[01:01:11] there in

[01:01:12] in effect

[01:01:13] the fact that

[01:01:14] one of them promotes

[01:01:15] that the teacher facilitator

[01:01:17] promotes himself as a sex god

[01:01:19] has been in the media

[01:01:20] in a documentary

[01:01:21] where he's telling you slept with

[01:01:22] 2000 women of course

[01:01:24] for a lot of women that brings up

[01:01:25] wow

[01:01:26] I must be something

[01:01:27] that I haven't had in

[01:01:28] my life yet

[01:01:29] I want to

[01:01:29] I want a bit of that

[01:01:31] so it creates that whole dynamic

[01:01:32] of

[01:01:34] there's something to get

[01:01:35] so they're almost there

[01:01:36] they're almost competing

[01:01:37] for a spot in his

[01:01:38] and a place in his bed

[01:01:40] the same in center point

[01:01:41] center point

[01:01:41] women were lining up

[01:01:42] outside of bootpotters

[01:01:44] hut

[01:01:44] when his wife was up for work

[01:01:46] by no way

[01:01:46] was he

[01:01:47] a sex god

[01:01:48] yeah he really looked like a

[01:01:50] an older potato farmer

[01:01:51] yeah

[01:01:52] and apparently he wasn't even a

[01:01:53] great lover

[01:01:54] from from what I've heard

[01:01:55] but it's this whole thing of

[01:01:57] oh I'm actually being seen

[01:01:59] by the guru

[01:01:59] I'm actually engaging

[01:02:00] someone who's more advanced than me

[01:02:02] and there will be some

[01:02:04] quote-unquote transmission

[01:02:05] of a kind that I can only get

[01:02:07] through having sex with him

[01:02:09] and you can probably fool yourself

[01:02:11] into that

[01:02:12] even if the physical

[01:02:13] interactions are different

[01:02:15] I mean

[01:02:16] really well you know

[01:02:17] it's probably only so much you can do

[01:02:18] differently

[01:02:19] in that department

[01:02:20] from what

[01:02:21] other people do as well

[01:02:22] in the bedroom

[01:02:23] but you can

[01:02:24] you can

[01:02:25] you can heighten this experience for yourself

[01:02:27] because you're projecting so much

[01:02:29] on this other person

[01:02:30] and becomes this whole outwardly

[01:02:32] experience

[01:02:33] or often not

[01:02:33] because I've also heard that

[01:02:34] it's not always that

[01:02:36] great and

[01:02:37] women that actually leave

[01:02:38] feeling completely deflated

[01:02:40] like oh

[01:02:40] that was

[01:02:41] that was that

[01:02:42] that was all

[01:02:43] but because

[01:02:44] there's this expectation

[01:02:45] that you're not changed and healed

[01:02:47] and you've been with a guru

[01:02:48] you're so supposed to play along with

[01:02:50] oh yeah wow

[01:02:52] I'm

[01:02:52] you know I've been initiated

[01:02:53] it's different now

[01:02:54] so

[01:02:55] to answer your question

[01:02:56] what's the antidote

[01:02:57] look

[01:02:58] talking more about this

[01:02:59] in general

[01:03:00] about our sexual desires

[01:03:02] about our hang ups

[01:03:04] about our

[01:03:05] needs

[01:03:05] about our

[01:03:06] our shame

[01:03:06] about our issues

[01:03:07] and not just

[01:03:09] leaving that

[01:03:09] to you know

[01:03:10] in the sort of the dark corners

[01:03:12] I spent two very formative years

[01:03:14] in the US

[01:03:15] in Los Angeles

[01:03:16] as a as a young journalist

[01:03:17] and coming from Germany

[01:03:19] well we have a bit of a different

[01:03:20] culture at least

[01:03:21] and you know I grew up in the 70s

[01:03:22] with libertarian parents

[01:03:24] and gyms are quite known for

[01:03:25] you know

[01:03:26] going to the beach naked

[01:03:27] and sitting in this

[01:03:28] so when they're not in a sexualized way

[01:03:30] but

[01:03:30] then being confronted almost

[01:03:32] with American culture

[01:03:34] around sexuality

[01:03:35] where I thought either it was

[01:03:36] everything was so

[01:03:37] pornographic

[01:03:38] and over amplified

[01:03:40] or it was

[01:03:41] shut down

[01:03:42] shame

[01:03:42] there wasn't much in between

[01:03:43] which I think is symbolic for the whole problem we're facing

[01:03:46] totally

[01:03:46] if we had a healthier

[01:03:48] a healthier culture

[01:03:49] and how we bring up our kids

[01:03:51] how we

[01:03:52] look at our bodies

[01:03:53] how we accept our

[01:03:55] you know

[01:03:56] gender fluidity

[01:03:57] what whatever it is

[01:03:58] just a bit you name it

[01:03:59] if we were a bit more

[01:04:01] conscious

[01:04:02] gotta hate this word

[01:04:03] these days

[01:04:04] but

[01:04:04] if we if we could implement

[01:04:06] yeah right

[01:04:07] so tainted right

[01:04:08] but if

[01:04:09] if we had a more open

[01:04:12] healthier

[01:04:13] honest way

[01:04:14] of addressing

[01:04:15] this important part of our lives

[01:04:17] which everyone

[01:04:18] is doing

[01:04:19] or thinking about

[01:04:20] or consumed by

[01:04:21] or put off by

[01:04:22] or harmed by

[01:04:24] or is monetizing it

[01:04:26] if we managed to somehow

[01:04:28] handle

[01:04:29] our sexual culture

[01:04:32] better

[01:04:32] I think there would be less of a place

[01:04:34] for these groups

[01:04:35] who offer

[01:04:36] something

[01:04:37] or seem to offer something

[01:04:38] and promise some kind of

[01:04:39] healing

[01:04:40] or the answer

[01:04:40] and then they can just run wild

[01:04:42] with it

[01:04:42] and there's no accountability

[01:04:43] and they don't come under scrutiny

[01:04:45] because

[01:04:46] no one wants to talk about

[01:04:47] having been to these groups

[01:04:48] and getting

[01:04:49] their fix there

[01:04:50] that's part of the problem

[01:04:51] that is such a great answer

[01:04:53] and I

[01:04:53] I hope that this podcast

[01:04:55] can be the beginning of it

[01:04:56] this particular episode

[01:04:58] and

[01:04:58] and future episodes on

[01:05:00] all of those

[01:05:01] sex cults out there

[01:05:03] I know who knew

[01:05:04] who knew

[01:05:05] I just had this sort of every now

[01:05:06] and then I like flashback to like

[01:05:08] you know

[01:05:09] us in

[01:05:10] nexium

[01:05:10] and like

[01:05:12] imagining

[01:05:12] if I could tell that person

[01:05:13] like what we'd be doing now

[01:05:15] also

[01:05:16] like

[01:05:17] we weren't the only one

[01:05:18] like that's what's

[01:05:19] amazing about this whole thing

[01:05:20] is like

[01:05:20] there's so many more out there

[01:05:22] it's just crazy

[01:05:23] and truly

[01:05:23] your book really does such a great job

[01:05:25] of the interviews

[01:05:26] and shining

[01:05:27] so much like

[01:05:28] it's really well done

[01:05:29] really well done

[01:05:30] and

[01:05:30] major trigger warning to our audience

[01:05:32] there's some very

[01:05:32] very upsetting

[01:05:34] stories that you share

[01:05:34] especially with children

[01:05:35] but

[01:05:36] it also

[01:05:37] I think it's important that

[01:05:38] people know

[01:05:39] what happened

[01:05:40] and

[01:05:40] that these

[01:05:41] victims get justice

[01:05:43] and that they can heal

[01:05:44] so

[01:05:44] thank you for

[01:05:45] for being a responsible journalist

[01:05:47] and for

[01:05:48] being also so vulnerable with your

[01:05:50] journey

[01:05:50] I think that's what's really unique

[01:05:52] about you is that you're not a

[01:05:53] outsider

[01:05:54] voyeuristic

[01:05:54] judgmental journalist

[01:05:56] you're in the

[01:05:56] in the think of it

[01:05:57] not judgmental is the best

[01:05:58] yeah

[01:05:59] so I really

[01:06:00] enjoyed reading your journey

[01:06:01] and I know our audience

[01:06:02] will just love it

[01:06:03] so

[01:06:03] thank you

[01:06:04] well thank you sarin

[01:06:05] thank you nippy

[01:06:06] you're welcome

[01:06:06] for taking the time

[01:06:07] and also really

[01:06:08] going into it all with me

[01:06:09] and getting where I was at

[01:06:11] it means a lot

[01:06:12] thank you

[01:06:12] of course

[01:06:13] please keep in touch

[01:06:13] you have an ally

[01:06:14] in us

[01:06:15] as always

[01:06:41] thank you for listening everybody

[01:06:44] we will be posting on instagram soon

[01:06:46] keep an eye out for some breaking news

[01:06:48] about a new format for our patreon

[01:06:50] coming soon you'll be able to access

[01:06:52] all of our bonus episodes

[01:06:54] that's all for every month

[01:06:57] for just five dollars a month

[01:06:59] thank you everyone who's been

[01:07:00] supporting us already

[01:07:01] if you enjoyed

[01:07:02] Anka's book or this episode

[01:07:04] please also check out

[01:07:05] her symposium coming up in news

[01:07:07] and

[01:07:08] I'll see you next time

[01:07:09] her symposium coming up in New Zealand

[01:07:11] decult

[01:07:12] you can check that out on her website

[01:07:14] in our show notes

[01:07:15] especially if you're in New Zealand

[01:07:16] or Australia

[01:07:17] that should be an easy trip for you

[01:07:19] hope you can make it

[01:07:20] thanks everyone

[01:07:21] and see you next time

[01:07:22] bye everybody

[01:07:40] thanks for listening everyone

[01:07:42] we're heading over to patreon.com

[01:07:45] slash a little bit culty now

[01:07:46] to discuss this episode

[01:07:48] in the meantime

[01:07:49] dear listener

[01:07:49] please remember

[01:07:50] this podcast is solely

[01:07:52] for general informational educational

[01:07:54] and entertainment purposes

[01:07:55] it's not intended as a substitute

[01:07:57] for real medical legal

[01:07:59] or therapeutic advice

[01:08:00] for cult recovery resources

[01:08:02] and to learn more

[01:08:03] about seeking safely

[01:08:04] in this culty world

[01:08:05] check out a little bit culty

[01:08:06] dot com slash culty resources

[01:08:08] and don't miss Sarah's TED talk called

[01:08:10] how cult literate are you

[01:08:12] great stuff

[01:08:13] a little bit culty is a trace 120

[01:08:15] production

[01:08:16] executive produced by Sarah Edmondson

[01:08:17] and Anthony Nippy Ames

[01:08:18] in collaboration with producer

[01:08:20] Will Rutherford at citizens of sound

[01:08:22] and our co-creator and show chaplain

[01:08:23] slash bodyguard

[01:08:24] Jess Temple-Tardy

[01:08:25] and our theme song

[01:08:26] Cultivated is by John Bryant