Culty Voicemail Roundup: ALBC Listeners Speak (10/14/24 EDITION)

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[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_11]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_11]: And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_11]: A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_11]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_11]: You might even already be in a cult.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Oops. You better keep listening to find out.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_11]: Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_11]: Hello, everybody.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_11]: Welcome back to this week's very special episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been well over a year since we started our voicemail line.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And we've gotten tons of voicemails.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And now we've just got to clean that mailbox out.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And clear some space for more voicemails.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_11]: But before we do that...

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I need to clear my throat.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, clear your throat.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_11]: But before we do that, we wanted to do an episode.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_11]: A series of them, actually.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_11]: Where we revisit some of our favorite voicemails from listeners.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_11]: And respond to a few of them that we didn't get to before, for whatever reason.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_11]: Sorry, it's been a huge onslaught of mail.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: We've also been responding to voicemails in many of our weekly bonus drops for Patreon subscribers.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_03]: But we wanted the rest of our audience to hear some of those, too.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_11]: Honestly, we just hear too much of our own voices.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_11]: So, frankly, we just love this chance to amplify our listeners.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Because this podcast wouldn't even exist without you guys.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_03]: We started this thing on a whim.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's crazy to think that here we are, in the top 100 of our category.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And have now done over 10 million downloads in almost four years.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_11]: That's crazy.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Did you think it was going to be that after we heard the first episode?

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: We were both like, no fucking way.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: This isn't going anywhere.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_11]: But thanks to you, our dear listeners and our Patreon supporters.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_11]: And everyone who's subscribing and supporting us from a distance.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_11]: It means a lot to us because we love doing it.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_11]: And we know that you, apparently, love to listen.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_11]: So, thank you.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_11]: And thanks to everyone who called in with a voicemail.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_11]: You can keep doing that.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_11]: If you are not signed up to our newsletter, that's where we are announcing everything that we are up to here at A Little Bit Culti.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_11]: In the newsletter, we share things that are coming up.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_11]: Like, Nibby and I are going to be involved with a summit with Seek Safely, which includes a number of our past guests.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_11]: Dr. Glenn Doyle and Anne Peterson from the Landmark episode.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_11]: Chris Shelton.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_11]: Chris Shelton and Rachel Bernstein from the Indoctrination Podcast.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_11]: That summit is for anybody who would like to still be a seeker and want to do it safely.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_11]: Or if you're a practitioner and want to figure out how to make the personal development space safer.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_11]: So, we're really excited to be part of that conversation.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_11]: October 19th.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a day-long event.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_11]: You can find that information on the events page on our website.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_11]: So, stay tuned for our announcement of Season 7 starting on October 28th.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you all so much.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_11]: We really appreciate your support.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, everyone, for listening.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And let's take a listen to what our listeners have to say.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah?

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Hi, Sarah and Nippy.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_09]: My name is Julie.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_09]: I love your show.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I've learned so much about the cultiverse.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_09]: And I loved The Vow.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_09]: I am always intrigued by some of the cults or the cult-like organizations that you guys cover and expose, I guess.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_09]: I am curious.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_09]: I have lots of friends who are involved with Airbon and this other company, Optavia.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_09]: And I know that they seem to be these MLMs.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_09]: But I'm just curious what your thoughts are on these companies that pop up that tend to attract women in their 30s and 40s who are looking to maybe work from home or quit their corporate jobs.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_09]: And just wondering if you are familiar with these companies and what you thought of them and if they reek culty to you as they do to me.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, Julie, we actually have done three different episodes on MLMs, starting with...

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_03]: They're all culty, by the way.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: We have Brandi Hatfield.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_11]: Roberta Blevins.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And Douglas Brooks, who actually litigated those things.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_11]: Those episodes really explain why all MLMs are problematic and more than a little bit culty.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_11]: Some MLMs seem to be more exploitative than others in their practices.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_11]: But all of them basically are a bait and switch and provide false promises as a lure to get people in.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_11]: That's the main problem.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And at worst, have lobbyists in Washington that have laws that protect the abusers.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So I would highly recommend listening to either Roberta Blevins and Brandi Hatfield to hear how they get you in.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And then Douglas Brooks one to hear how the abusers are protected illegally.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, very culty and hard to hold accountable.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_11]: And Emily Lynn Paulson wrote a book called Hey Hun about her experience in a cult that shall remain nameless,

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_11]: but may or may not be Arbonne or something else like Arbonne.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_11]: And we will just say that we love these questions.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_11]: And a lot of people reach out asking for help how to deal with friends who are in it.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_11]: I'd say don't say you're in a cult.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_11]: That's not helpful.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_11]: But ask them questions, gentle questions about the structure and how they earn money

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_11]: and if they've ever actually calculated if they are earning money because most of the time they are not.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, Julie, for that question.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_11]: Next up, Susie has a voicemail about the cult of one and the good vibes only thing in her particular industry.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_11]: She says Sarah, but she meant to say Sarma, a.k.a. the bad vegan, our dear friend.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see what she had to say.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, guys.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_06]: My name is Susie and I'm calling from Mesa, Arizona.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And I actually stumbled across your podcast when you had Sarah on after I watched her Netflix video.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And something she said really struck me about the cult of one.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I was actually in a very mentally, emotionally, spiritually abusive relationship about 16 years ago.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm now 56 years old.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So when I was 36 to 40 and just the power of the cult of one is just so overwhelming to think about.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And when Sarah was talking about that, that really hit home.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And then the other thing that I really struggle with in my community is I actually work for a mortgage company and I work a lot with a real estate community.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's the good vibes only cult.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I really struggle with that, especially with everything that's going on in the world.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And I have a lot of friends.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And in my industry, there's a lot of messaging around the toxic positivity and just ignoring everything that's happening around us, around the world, around them.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And just choosing to stay in their own protected space, if you will.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And I really, really struggle with that.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_06]: So those are my thoughts.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you guys so much for what you're doing.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Just know it matters.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And we hear you.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And we see you.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And we love you for your truth and your authenticity.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So keep shining.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Keep doing what you're doing.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, that's my word salad for the night.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you so much.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_11]: I wouldn't call that word salad.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_11]: I appreciate that.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_11]: It was very articulate, I thought.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and clear.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_11]: To answer that, toxic positivity is exactly that.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_11]: It is really toxic.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_11]: And we see that a lot these days, especially in the documentary we watched, American Sweethearts, about the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Obviously a totally different atmosphere than real estate.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_11]: But the fact is, if you can't express something that you're unhappy with or a complaint about something without being shamed or tacitly punished somehow, that's just a toxic atmosphere.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_11]: And it's not realistic.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_11]: You know what I mean?

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, I totally agree.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It's also one, when people get into the cult of one, it has so much shame around it that a lot of people are afraid to call it out.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And toxic positivity is normally the precursor or something like that.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I feel like obviously it's not a true cult, but that's not a good atmosphere to live in.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, a lot of people's personality is based on toxic positivity, right?

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, it's a hard one to call out too because it has plausible deniability.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a tricky one.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I tend to just shut down around it and hope it goes away and train the person that what they're doing isn't working.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, Susie.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_03]: This next one is from Eve Leonard.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_03]: She has a voicemail about Evan Rachel Wood and the fetish BDSM and consent.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, it's Sarah Nippy.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: This is Eve from New Jersey.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for all the advocacy work that you're doing.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's really important.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to make a comment about the Evan Rachel Wood interview.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: First off, I loved Phoenix Rising.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the reasons I appreciate that documentary is because Evan does an excellent job at pinpointing exactly where Brian was abusive and defining that abusive power.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And people who are in those lifestyles, the gothic lifestyle, the queer lifestyle, it's our previous conversations about abuse and sexual fetishes often get very blurred.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And we associate the lifestyle with the abuse.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That used to be very evident.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I know when I was growing up in the 80s and the 90s, you know, if you engaged in these kinds of lifestyles, those lifestyles in of themselves were abusive.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we need to do a better job culturally separating the two.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a space to engage in sexual fetishes that's completely consensual and can even deepen the intimacy within a relationship.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: However, if we consistently compare abuse with a sexual fetish, as a result, the audience will come away thinking that any kind of sexual fetish will lead to abuse.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And that in and of itself just isn't true.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: A documentary that does a really good job at separating the two is Camus Bell's documentary on Showtime called We Need to Talk About Cosby, where within all of the people that he interviewed, one of them was a sex educator.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And the sex educator specifically pointed out that there is a space for somebody to engage in role play, to engage in more dominant submissive behavior, but in a completely consensual way.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we just need to talk about that a little bit more and discuss and educate people to clearly understand where, when a, you know, something that could be consensual when it turns to be non-consensual, identifying what that looks like.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that can be much more beneficial to a wider audience.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for everything you do.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate it.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, my response to that is coercion is coercion.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And it doesn't matter if it's around sexual behavior or getting someone to do something they don't want to do.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I think getting sensitive to how people are going against their instincts to do something they don't want to do is irrelevant of the content point.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And sure, yeah, there's probably things in the sexual community or the BDSM that people get coerced in.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think if it's a clear exchange and everyone's agreeing on it, that settles any sort of argument you might have, regardless if it's, you know, come to my party, I coerce you to go to my party or whatever it is.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, I don't think the content doesn't really matter.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Once you're coerced, you're coerced.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Sidebar, there was a coach in Vancouver who was not part of DOS, and she was still in when shit blew up.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_11]: And when she heard that there was no safe word in DOS and there was no way out, that once you were in, you were in and you were just the slave to the master till the end of time.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_11]: And she was involved in the BDSM community.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_11]: And she was like, well, that doesn't work.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_11]: And that was enough for her to see that it wasn't safe.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_11]: So I thought that was really interesting.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, Eve, for that message.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_11]: This podcast certainly would not be happening without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_11]: Are you with us?

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_11]: Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes, ad free and exclusive content, and the occasional Zoom with fan favorites from our past episodes, Q&As and all sorts of goodies.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_11]: It's fun over there, people.

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[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_11]: So I've made some pretty big lifestyle changes in the last few months.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm in my late 40s now.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_11]: Hard to say that.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_11]: I started lifting weights.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_11]: Necessity.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_11]: I've stopped overscheduling and saying yes to things and being a little bit more picky.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_11]: And I got off coffee.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_11]: This has been so key, so clutch in trying to manage my anxiety.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, I still like to drink something hot.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_11]: I like that routine.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_11]: Powder and then some honey.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_11]: And then I have this delicious hot beverage that helps me feel alert but not feel all jittery and weird for the rest of the day.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_11]: Literally sometimes I'm like, what is this feeling I have?

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_11]: Is this inner peace?

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_11]: I think I have.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_11]: I have found inner peace.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a good thing.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a good thing, people.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_11]: It's totally changed my whole morning routine and the rest of my day.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_11]: So let me tell you a little bit about mud water if you haven't heard of it.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_11]: But each ingredient is 100% USDA certified organic, non-GMO, gluten-free, vegan, and kosher.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_11]: There's zero sugar and no sweeteners added.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_11]: I personally can't put a bit of honey in it, but you do you.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_11]: Each ingredient in mud water serves a purpose with organic ingredients for a clean, natural boost.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_11]: It has this smooth, earthy flavor, providing a delicious, natural source of energy.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_11]: And their OG blend contains cacao and chai for a hint of caffeine and kind of like a hot chocolate vibe.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_11]: Lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote natural energy, and both chaga and reishi to support a healthy immune system.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_11]: People, I used to put all of these things in my coffee and it was, first of all, it took a lot of time and it was also very expensive to purchase all these things individually.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_11]: And now it's all in one place in this slick little black tin.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_11]: So if you're feeling like your 3 p.m. cup of coffee might be keeping up at night and making you contemplate life choices and the meaning of existence, let's just not do that again.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_11]: Switch to mud water like Nippy and I and you can say goodbye to those sleepless, restless nights.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_11]: It's all about the energy without the late night existential crisis, especially in your late 40s.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_11]: You don't have to be as old as we are though to try it.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_11]: Trust me, make the change now.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_11]: To use mud water, you just mix the powders into your favorite mug and add some water on it.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_11]: Give it a mix.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_11]: Some just go nuts and add creamer or honey or even CBD.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_11]: There's also actually caffeine-free blends available, but I personally love the whole routine.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_11]: I love the frother that comes with the package and you can like fold it up and travel with it if you get addicted like I have.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_11]: I busted the frother out at a girls weekend this weekend and they were like, what is that?

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm like, this is my mud water and my frother.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_11]: I also gave it to my girlfriend who just turned 40 because I'm like, girl, you got to get off the caffeine.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_11]: Time to make some life changes like me.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_11]: See, here I am always preaching about what I'm into and I'm really into mud water.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_11]: So head to mudwater.com, grab your starter kit and for a limited time, our listeners get up to 43% off your entire order.

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[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_11]: After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_11]: Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_11]: Stay energized and refreshed all season long with mud water because life's too short for anything less than natural, delicious energy.

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[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_11]: Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_11]: Next up, we have Oli on a NXIVM voicemail.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_11]: What does Oli have to say?

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_11]: Ooh, racy.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, y'all.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I just want to reach out and say thanks for the podcast and thanks for your work on The Vow.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been watching it for the second time in two weeks this week.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Watching it with a friend who was really just struggling to understand how people got drawn into DOS and why people didn't balk at the slavery and those kind of things that when you're looking at it from the outside seem obviously horrific.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And I just finished Alexandra Stein's book, Terror, Love and Brainwashing, which I got onto through the podcast.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So thank you.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_05]: But what struck me when I was watching was that we as outsiders were watching this from an objective perspective, whereas you were in an attachment relationship with Keith and with the organization which had become like your family.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_05]: And you guys have talked about having other connections and still having a life outside.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_05]: But it was pretty clear that in terms of purpose and values and where you wanted to go in life, you know, Sarah, you talked about thinking you're going to do that forever.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And it just really, really struck me that if you watch someone's experience from the outside without understanding it as if it was the closest attachment, the closest friend, the closest person in your life doing those things and how much more you would justify and rationalize and accept some of those behaviors.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Along with, you know, we know the incremental nature of what you were put through that no one, as you said, no one said on day one, this is what's going to happen.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_05]: They said, you know, come and reach your potential and come and come for human growth and la, la, la and all that shit.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_05]: That's not shit, but that they use as bait to get you in there.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I just, yeah, it just really struck me how wrenching it is when those attachments are ripped apart and how much those attachments hold us in those just shitty situations that are really hard to understand from the outside.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So I want to thank you for your bravery and just sharing your story so openly.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I love what you both bring to the struggle and I love the guests you bring on and the way that you work through your interview process with them is really wonderful.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_05]: So thank you so much and keep going.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I love it.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks, Ali.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_11]: Those are very kind words.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_11]: And yeah, first of all, we loved that book by Alexandra Stein, Terror, Love and Brainwashing.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_11]: Such a basically masterclass in how these things work.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_11]: And we've actually referred to the book a lot for our second book in looking at the template in regards to how these con men get you.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_11]: And what you just said is so key is that whether it's you're looking at it from the attachment point of view or what trust is being leveraged,

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_11]: regardless had, you know, some random person that I met on the street tell me about NXIVM, I probably would not have joined.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_11]: It was Mark Vicente and what he meant to me and how much I trusted him that brought me in.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_11]: Similarly to joining DOS, even if Ali Mack or one of the other women in NXIVM had invited me to DOS, I probably wouldn't have joined.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_11]: But because it was Lauren, Lauren had that sway over me in terms of the level of trust and me putting her on a pedestal.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, she could tell me to jump and I'd probably say how high.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_11]: So part of that's on me and part of that is on her and the structure of the company that we were in, in terms of abusing power from the top.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: First off, Ali, two times in two weeks.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't watched it two times in seven years.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know how you sat through that.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But I guess it wasn't you.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for saying that.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And thank you.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like you have a good understanding and foundation to understand what you're looking at, which is what we are trying to get people to do.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for saying those things.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And yes, everything you said was true.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I'm going to add much to what you just said.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Ali.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, now we're going to go back to a batch of voicemails all about one of our most controversial episodes since we started the podcast, Eckhart Tolle.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And needless to say.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_11]: We were surprised.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_11]: And I will say it was one of my most interesting and exciting interviews, especially to do it in person.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_11]: But I...

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Hard to get a word in.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_11]: Hard to get, definitely hard to get a word in.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_11]: And that's fine.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_11]: It's Eckhart.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_11]: Just let him rip.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And he did.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_11]: What did Christine from Calgary have to say?

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_11]: Let's find out.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Sarah and Nippy.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's Christine calling from Calgary.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I just listened to Eckhart Part 1.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And...

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my mind exploding.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I really liked your interview with him.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot wait for more.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have been a long-time follower on and off throughout the years of Eckhart's work.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I couldn't help but think about people's reaction to Eckhart as your guest.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And people being critical that he is a little bit culty.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And it got me thinking about Eckhart's work.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes the way he communicates is word salad-esque.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, the deeper you go into his work, the more it does seem to make sense.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I have to admit that there are times where I think it's a little too esoteric.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it can leave the listener feeling like, what WTF?

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: This is some other planet that this character's on.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, I don't trust him whatsoever.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So, that's the comment part.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: The question piece is around Sarah.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: When you met Eckhart in Vancouver, and I know he hangs around coffee shops.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's, like, quite visible in Vancouver.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But then the fact that he was so open and willing to spend time with you over a number of years.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just can't help but feel like that's some kind of divine intervention.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, if you don't believe in that, the universe putting in front of you exactly what you need when you need it.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I wondered if you could comment further on that.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I know you're a little more woo than Nippy is.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But perhaps you'd be willing to comment on air about the significance from your perspective of Eckhart popping up in your life.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then becoming an ally for you and someone to work with as you are healing.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Love you both.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Keep up the good work.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Keep kicking ass out there.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Love your show.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Bye.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_11]: Christine, thank you.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_11]: First of all, Christine's very active on our social, I think on Patreon too.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_11]: But just really supportive of us.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_11]: It's nice to hear your voice.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it is.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_11]: And I, yeah, if I recall, yes, I'm definitely more woo than Nippy.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_11]: What does woo mean?

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_11]: You mean more open to things we can't measure, spiritual things and whatnot.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm getting there.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_11]: He's getting there.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_11]: But I will say that at the time, a lot of things were happening as we were leaving, like in literally the week after NXIVM.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_11]: And I think this is in my book.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_11]: But people came out of the woodwork.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_11]: I, you know, of course lost my income very, very quickly.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_11]: And then I booked at the same week a huge voiceover campaign.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_11]: I got offered a lead in a Hallmark movie without auditioning opposite Andy McDowell, which is related to, it's not a tangent to how I connected with Eckhart.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_11]: Is that I'd just been on set with Andy and she'd been, Andy.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_11]: She'd been talking about how, you know, there's only a few people that she'd be starstruck by.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_11]: And one of them, she said, was Eckhart Tolle.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_11]: And I just remembered that.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_11]: And then literally, I think it was a couple days later, and she had said that about his work, that she loved his work and would love to meet him.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_11]: And then I, like, bumped into him.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_11]: And it was, I think I said this in the episode, I was walking over to him to say hi.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_11]: Like, I knew him before I realized who it was.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_11]: It was like somebody familiar.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_11]: They was like, oh, hi.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_11]: And then I was like, oh, my God, I don't know you.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_11]: I know you because you're famous.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_11]: And part of the conversation was telling him that Andy McDowell loves his work.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_11]: And he said that he loved Groundhog Day.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_11]: So when I went back to work, I was still working with her.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_11]: It was over a couple weeks.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_11]: I told her this and I made the introductions and then I stayed in touch with him.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_11]: And yeah, the whole couple weeks was very, I don't want to say magical because Nippy teases me when I say that.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_11]: But it all kind of lined up in this wonderful way.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_11]: So yeah, I do think that it was divine timing or it was meant to be or whatever you want to say.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_11]: All those words I'm still kind of allergic to.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_11]: But I appreciated him being in my life at that time.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_11]: And we had many wonderful conversations before the podcast for lunch where we would sit and talk.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_11]: And the main nugget I got from him was just really the idea of like spirituality and toxic spirituality and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_11]: And that was a decision that I made early on, partly thanks to Eckhart, that I could keep some of the things I'd learned if I could separate it from the toxic teacher, which was clearly Keith.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_11]: I think he was also just sort of fascinated with how somebody like Keith got into power and how he wanted to know and understand.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_11]: And we talked about it for him as well.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_11]: Like how does he have an organization and how does he keep people in check and make sure that things don't get out of control or there's any abuses of power.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_11]: But I personally love the episode.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_11]: I understand how it certainly can be word salad-esque at times, but I also feel like it's just sort of how he talks.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_11]: And just because it sounds like word salad doesn't mean it is word salad.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_11]: Like I think word salad is meant to confuse somebody.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think he's trying to confuse anyone.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, also, I think too.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's just confusing.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, when people are doing word salad, they don't really know what they're talking about.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And it seems to me that when he's speaking, knows what he's saying, but can't necessarily control how you're going to interpret it.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you interpret it and you don't make sense of it, I don't know that it's necessarily Eckhart's fault or intent.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: What I will say is when I listen to other podcasts, because Eckhart was kind of talking one way and it wasn't really us questioning and getting him to define his terms.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of other podcasts is primarily when they're philosophical, people are really diligent and adamant about you defining the terms.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Like when you use a word, they go, okay, let's discuss what that word means.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a dialogue.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03]: This wasn't a dialogue.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Eckhart's was more of a monologue.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And then if you can't, like I had impulses to ask questions, but there wasn't a natural pause in the question.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So I felt more at the whim of when he was going to pause for air or I just kind of ceded to the fact, okay, this is him getting his message through.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what he's used to and customary to and not someone going, well, wait, let's define consciousness.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's have a conversation about that.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And it didn't, it didn't lend to that.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And I decided that I think I'm in listening mode more so than define your terms mode.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's what can be a little tricky.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_11]: And we are still in touch with him.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_11]: And I posted something about, I think I went to hear him speak around this time.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_11]: And one of the leaders in the cult space reached out to me and said, that's a cult.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_11]: He's a cult.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_11]: And I said, I disagree.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_11]: I think he's one of the good ones.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_11]: Do I think maybe there could be culty stuff in his organization?

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_11]: Sure.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_11]: It's a big organization.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_11]: And there's humans running them.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_11]: And that can happen.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_11]: And as we know, any group can become culty.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_11]: But do I think he's a good person?

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_11]: And do I think, yes.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_11]: And do I think he's trying to hurt anybody?

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_11]: No.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_11]: But that's, you know, I've been wrong before.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_11]: So.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_11]: We have been wrong before.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_11]: I'll never, I'll never, I'll never, you know.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a documentary about how wrong we were.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_11]: You may have seen it.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_11]: You may recognize me.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03]: It's well documented how wrong we were.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_11]: On such shows as LaValle on HBO.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_11]: Escaping Nixxiom with Josh Block.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_11]: But I like him.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_11]: That's my two cents.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_11]: For more background on what brought us here, check out my page turning memoir.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_11]: It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nixxiom, the cult that bound my life.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_11]: It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_11]: And if you want to see that story in streaming form, you can watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO.

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[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Break time's over, people.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good one.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, so next up.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's another Eckhart message from Christina.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Sarah and Nippy.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_10]: My name is Christina.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_10]: And I was just listening to your episode, the first part of the Eckhart Tolle interview.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_10]: And something he said really brought back to my memory this great YouTube personality.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_10]: Her name on YouTube is Half of Carla.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_10]: And she talks about her weight loss journey.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_10]: And she said that the thing that helped her the most to lose weight was therapy.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_10]: But that there was a moment, not in a therapy session, but while she was driving with her husband, when she finally had this realization that the negative thoughts that she had been focusing on so much throughout her life and that had been keeping her from losing the weight that she wanted to lose, those thoughts were not her thoughts.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_10]: And it was like an out-of-body experience where she finally transcended her ego and was able to see that the thing that was holding her back, these negative thoughts didn't belong to her.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_10]: And so what he said, Eckhart Tolle, really reinforced that feeling like, yeah, wait, there is this other thing going on inside of us.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_10]: And we allow our ego to keep it trapped.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_10]: But if we could find a way to release our sort of inner person, a lot of those issues that we have might just go away.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_10]: This is a very simplified thing, but this is more a plug for half of Carla because she's been such an inspiration to me on my own weight loss journey.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_10]: So I really love what you guys are doing.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks so much.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_10]: Bye-bye.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks, Christina.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_11]: I agree.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: What I take from that is thoughts matter.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, ironically, in NXIVM, we had this exercise that I've seen since in many other, like in Buddhism and different practices where it's called like the witness state or the observer state,

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_11]: where you like get meta with yourself and you experience yourself having thoughts.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_11]: Do you remember those exercises?

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_11]: And there was actually a whole process where we were separating ourselves from our thoughts, from our behaviors, from our vocation, from our results, from our material.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_11]: Do you remember all the different layers?

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I forget.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_11]: It's been a long time.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the chronology was relevant.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, the chronology was relevant.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_11]: But thoughts, one of the things that we try to say, we are not that.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_11]: We are not our thoughts, which I do think there is a very valuable place for, especially if you're meditating and you're trying to be more present in the moment and not caught up in the steam train or the monkey mind, as they say, in different practices.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_11]: But that's ultimately what I think is the main nugget of his teaching, is having a transcendent experience of yourself separate from the ego, which in certain hands, like we've seen with people like Binti Nium and Saro and certain spiritual teachers,

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_11]: where they can use that concept to spiritually bypass and also abuse and say, well, that's just a negative thought that you're having.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not a narcissistic douchebag.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_11]: That's just your projective thoughts, for example.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_11]: Like all these things can be wonderful and be totally abused.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_11]: Thoughts?

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Not any more thoughts.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: No ego here.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_11]: No ego.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_11]: Great.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_11]: You're very present in your consciousness.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, and also, we'll check out Half of Carla.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_11]: That sounds like a good influence in a sea of shady influencers, especially in the whole weight loss diet culture space.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_11]: What a mess that internet can be.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_11]: And actually, we have some episodes coming up on that.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_11]: So stay tuned.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Would Half of Carla be Carl?

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_03]: No?

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_11]: That's what I did there.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a dad joke.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_03]: A little joke there.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_11]: Last message from Alison about, you guessed it, Eckhart Tolle.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Sarah Nippy.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Alison from Sydney, Australia.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We've spoken before.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Nippy, I know you like my accent.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to come to your voicemail to say thank you for sharing that episode with Eckhart.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It was the best episode I've listened to.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I say that about a lot of your episodes.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: It had a lot of moments in there with me, which will help with my educational piece for helping people that are leaving cults.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The parts that resonated with me the most were when he was talking about, you know, why people join cults and how they get us in.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But also the last 10 minutes of that conversation where he's, Sarah, you asked a really valid question about businesses and businesses, how they turn into cults.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_11]: I guess you win some, you lose some.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Sensitive audience.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's for sure.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_11]: But I also totally get how just the whole genre of Eckhart, if you had been in a spiritual cult, it just would be like super upsetting just because it's similar.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_11]: Just like I can't go see somebody speak with a whiteboard because of executive success programs and NXIVM.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_11]: It's just like, it's just too close to home.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_11]: There's just too much.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Certain buzzwords and language too.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd say, you know, good for you for wanting to check yourself for not being a cult, but most cult leaders don't do that for one.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And we have an episode with Cameron Harreld.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_03]: About corporate culture.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_03]: About corporate culture.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He asked some good questions.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And in our comment section, you'd have to scroll on our Instagram to see it.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some really good questions and it gets somewhat, I wouldn't say hostile, it just gets people get a little bit upset.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But there are some blind spots that even, you know, Sarah and I still have and everyone, I think everyone has, you know, when you get into a position where let's say you have a job and they're dependent and, you know, someone has a mortgage out in your house and you have healthcare.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, through the company and you can't leave.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Those are certain things that, you know, for people starting businesses look out for because you're making people dependent on you.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_03]: That can lead to, it doesn't sound like you're in jeopardy of abusing people, but if you recognize you have that power over people, that was one of the things that at least I learned for that.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Because Cameron, I think, said something like, you know, you can always leave, but people can't always leave.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And so those little things that people can get into are a slippery slope in businesses and stuff like that.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_11]: Someone like Cameron could leave because he's, you know, he's a jet setter.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_11]: He works from anywhere.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_11]: He's not tied to a company.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_11]: But yeah, I think the point is when people come dependent on a company, that's where it's...

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, then the incentives become, you know, and if I need you to stay and I know that you have a mortgage, two kids, and you're dependent on me, then...

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the power is...

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: The power dynamic is off, to say the least.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not saying that you're going to abuse it, but look out for those.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, Allison.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_11]: A lady named Charlie has a voicemail about her story of escape, recovery, and healing.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_12]: Hello, Niffy.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, Sarah.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_12]: Anyone else on the production team that is listening?

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_12]: I wanted to thank you for your courage, for your loudness about all things culty.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_12]: I've been following Sarah's story from the New York Times article, and I watched The Vow with my sister, and I listened to most of the ALBC episodes.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_12]: See, I was raised in a cult, a Catholic cult, when I was 14.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_12]: The rumors about our founder turned out to be true.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_12]: He was a sexual predator who abused teens and others and was a criminal in a lot of other ways.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_12]: It was a huge scandal, and my parents remained loyal to the cult for about another decade.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_12]: I got out when I was 18 with one of my sisters.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_12]: Fortunately, in the years since, my parents and the other members of my family slowly left.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_12]: We've all gotten out.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_12]: We've each begun our own individual healing journeys.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm 28 now, and my parents have apologized to me and to my other siblings.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_12]: It just never really felt like enough.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_12]: I just couldn't understand where they were coming from, and because I didn't understand, I couldn't forgive.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_12]: But through listening to your stories, Mark, Bonnie, India, Catherine's stories, listening to your guests, and hearing the information given by your expert guests about cult tactics,

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_12]: I've been able to understand how my parents were targeted for recruitment, the way that information was twisted, how their friendships and relationships were used like a reward system, and just how manipulated they were.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_12]: And all the while, they thought that they were free and looking for a good cause, and that's the whole point of the manipulation.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_12]: Because of the stories that you've shared, I've been able to find myself capable of forgetting my parents, and we've begun a new chapter in our lives as a family.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_12]: We've begun healing our relationships.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_12]: And I just want to let you know that, yes, your work helps people become aware of cult tactics and avoid them.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_12]: But it also helps me and my family to heal from the ways that cults have already hurt us.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_12]: So thank you.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you so much.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_12]: It is very impactful what you do.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_12]: So thank you.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I guess I didn't think I was going to cry in the voicemail episode.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: That makes what we do worth it.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It really does.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for sharing that.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad to hear that even just having a conversation with your parents about it has bridged the gap, and you guys can...

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_11]: As you can understand them now.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_11]: That's a real gift, and a gift for us to know that we can help in that way.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, living well is your best revenge on this thing.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm glad you're on that journey.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_03]: That's awesome.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_11]: That you all got out, too, and that you can start a new life afresh.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_11]: So thank you, Charlie, for taking the time to tell us.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_11]: Please do continue to leave us voicemails, everybody.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_11]: It means a lot to us to engage in this way.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_11]: And that was a great batch of voicemails.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, callers.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_11]: We are excited to keep going through the archives.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_11]: We will be back soon with another full episode of your thoughts on all the things.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And since we're cleaning up the archives, there's plenty of space for new messages.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So be sure to give us a shout.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Leave us your message at alittlebitculti.com slash voicemails, and who knows?

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You can end up being heard by 200,000 people and growing.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_11]: So make sure your car radio isn't blasting in the background, okay?

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Be back soon with more A Little Bit Culty episodes, everyone.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Till next time.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_11]: You like what you hear?

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_11]: Please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_11]: Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_11]: Smash that subscribe button.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_11]: You know what to do.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening, everyone.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_03]: We're heading over to patreon.com slash alittlebitculti now to discuss this episode.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: In the meantime, dear listener, please remember, this podcast is solely for general informational,

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: educational, and entertainment purposes.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not intended as a substitute for real, medical, legal, or therapeutic advice.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_03]: For cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world,

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_03]: check out alittlebitculti.com slash culty resources and don't miss Sarah's TED Talk called

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_03]: How Cult Literate Are You?

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Great stuff.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_11]: A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_11]: Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_11]: Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_11]: Jess Templetardy.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_11]: And our theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant.