Where are they now? Mark Vicente on the Narcissist’s Playbook (Part 2)

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[00:02:03] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:02:31] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames, and this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult, and that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:02:59] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening. Some live Q&A and exclusive content at patreon.com slash alittlebitculty. Welcome to Season 8 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:03:23] I meant to ask at the beginning, but we got right into it. Like, how are you? Like, this has been such a challenge, I know, getting this out. And like, you know, we understand labors of love. But how does it feel now that it's out and you're, you know, it's your baby? I think he's fine. Yeah, I know. I want to know how he's doing. I'm actually not fine. Are we talking about feelings now? I'm actually not fine. He's tired.

[00:03:44] I mean, I will tell you. So, you know, I've also been doing, your audience will remember that years ago, you guys had the Bentinho people on. Jay, Jack, and Keen. Yes, so tell us about that too. The box. So, you know, from probably just before they went on the podcast, we began documenting as well, right? So we've basically been shooting them for five years.

[00:04:08] And I just went out to the Netherlands with them to go and document a bunch of stuff out there, which is very exciting. I've now spoken to probably every single person that's come out, I thought, but now more people are coming out. And so I've been doing this podcast. So the series is called Instaguru and the podcast is also called Instaguru. I've put out seven episodes so far. They're intense. I'm tired.

[00:04:34] Like, I feel really, really proud and satisfied with being able to get this film ready and to also work in the Instaguru series. But I have a level of exhaustion that is emotional exhaustion that's profound. You guys know this. I have heard so many horrible things over the last five years. Like, I've heard some of the worst of humanity. And you guys know, I went into prisons to talk to murderers.

[00:04:58] So, like, I've already seen bad shit, but there was something about the slow decapitation of people's souls, you know, and having them share that. The same thing happens with you guys. They share that pain with you. It's exhausting. And I don't say to say, like, I don't want to do it. It just hurts. Like, my heart just hurts from years of listening to so much pain, you know, and so much hard. It's so hard. Are you taking care of yourself? I'd like to say yes.

[00:05:30] Well, Mark, you know, one of the things Sarah and I... Bonnie keeps saying you need to take care of yourself. Yeah. Bonnie, I'm going to text Bonnie. I mean, she's on it, I'm sure. If we could, I'm going to share, like, what was going on when we were going out, when we were all getting out and some of the conversations Sarah and I had. Like, we could leave the drama and go be parents. Yeah. Like, honestly, Sarah and I have talked about it. If we didn't have Troy, if we didn't have that, we would... We had to stop what we were doing.

[00:05:56] We had to stop what we were doing. It demanded our attention. And so I got into, like, a different parasympathetic place. And I kind of stayed there with my son. And I recognize you and Bonnie were just in the gunfight the entire time. Constantly. You couldn't leave it. Constantly. And I imagine that's kind of like, you got to give yourself that, give yourself a puppy or something where you can go, like... Yeah, get a puppy. Leave your world. I can't get a puppy right now, but I... You know what I mean, though, right?

[00:06:20] I do. I will tell you one thing that actually is very helpful. We live very close to this beautiful wilderness area where there's deer. And, like, sometimes in the morning we'll go out, like, just after sunrise. Not with your gun, Mark. I just want to go see the... No, not with a gun. I couldn't hurt animals. Just checking. Just checking. I just go look at fucking Bambi, you know, in the backlit fields of Texas. That's what I'm talking about. I feel better, you know? Yeah. And then I go and shoot targets that have nothing to do with animals, you know? It's important to be prepared. Well, that's good to get your aggression out.

[00:06:50] It's important to be prepared. Get your aggression out. Well, let's just say... Let me say it this way. I've collected enemies. Yeah. I'll just say that. I've collected enemies. What's the pushback you're getting on this stuff? Other than the lack of support from Netflix or... Oh, that's the least... That's the least of the shit. That's the least of the shit. Which, by the way... You said there isn't... Sorry, can I just say one thing? Yeah. But the comment about there's no audience? Like, the number one docuseries on Netflix right now is Trust Me, The False Prophet. I know. I know.

[00:07:20] So, what the fuck, Netflix? I know. I'll tell you something else, though. That's a lie, if you ask me, Mark. Yeah. I'll tell you something else, though. That people say things like, oh, you know, you should Netflix, Netflix, as though Netflix is a really wonderful thing. Here's what the streamers do. They know filmmakers are desperate to get their shit out there. So, they will take their stuff, pay them almost nothing, and maybe market it or maybe not market it. But then you don't have control of what they're doing in terms of marketing. So, you don't want that? No.

[00:07:50] No. Do not want that. Don't want that. Listen, they might realize that they may... Listen, what happened with the bleep is they... I mean, everybody said no. And then you know what happened. Like, four months later, everybody's banging on the door. Like, oh, it turns out... They didn't say, turns out there is an audience. They said things like, oh, it seems to be making money. It was like, yeah, you don't say. We're patient. You know, it's taken five years to get here, but I believe in the audience. Yeah. I believe in the audience. Tell people what they want.

[00:08:20] That's the thing. And you got to tell them what they want. Sidebar, because this won't be out for a couple of weeks. Did you know... Have you watched False Profit yet? Not yet. Not yet. But you know about it. Yeah. And you know that... I've been chatting with her a bunch about it, yeah. Okay. And did she... Has she told you about her experience with Keith Raniere? Long time ago, she told me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know that they dated. Like, about two or three years ago. Yes. Briefly. Yeah. Yeah. Insane. Insane. It's insane.

[00:08:47] And she texted him in, like, 19... 2007. Like, hey, you should get a cult expert to look at this group, because there's some... You can decult it. There's some elements that might be problematic, and you should get someone to look at it. Did you get her on your pod? Did you get her on your pod to talk about this? Yes. Two days ago. Yeah. And it comes out in a couple weeks. Well, it'll be last... I don't know. It'll be last week, but it comes out soon. I love that. Yeah. She's incredible. I mean, what she did is fucking incredible, and she's... Yeah. Yeah. She's saved... She has saved people.

[00:09:18] Warrior. What a warrior. Yeah. She's a warrior. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, the fact there's no audience for it is bullshit. People are hungry for this shit. It's complete bullshit. But one of the things... A lot of artists are recognizing that part of the reason the film industry is failing, if your audience doesn't know this, the film industry is in utter freefall collapse. Yes. I did know this. Part of the reason is because... Have you ever looked at those movies with all the producers?

[00:09:40] Those people have skimmed so much money off the top and the bottom that there's so little money to actually make things. But, you know, they've got second, third, fourth, and fifth houses, so good for them. The industry's become so predatory that it's sort of squeezed artists out so much. I think 45 technicians left Hollywood in the last year. Just left. Like, really high-skilled technicians just left because it's so difficult to make films.

[00:10:09] So I think the industry is going through this kind of revolution right now, and they're sort of embracing AI in a way that's completely stupid. Like, I think AI has its place, but they're embracing it in a way that's completely stupid, and I think what they're going to finally realize is that films will come out that are very authentic, and they'll look at it and go, huh, how did that become successful? Because it's authentic, motherfucker. Because it's real. It's real feelings, you know? They're the last to know. The last. Oh, it just reminded me, I did have a question.

[00:10:36] I won't say who, but there was somebody, one of the self-aware narcissists has an emotional moment in your film without giving away the, you know, giving away anything. What do you think was going on? Was that a performance or was that real? What do you think that was? I have my opinions, but I'm not going to say, but I really want whoever's listening to this podcast, when you see the film, I'd love to hear what you think. Let's just say some people in that room believed it and some people didn't.

[00:11:06] I'm not going to say more of that right now. Okay. Well, hopefully this is a lot of cliffhangers for people to be excited to go see it. But let me talk about something related, but adjacent and somewhere else. I mean, did you notice in ESP, sorry, Nixxiom, how many people did crocodile tears? They're just a performance, just complete crocodile tears. I mean, some, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like very famous actresses who basically cried and suddenly stopped crying. Like, what the fuck just happened?

[00:11:36] So I think there's a lot of performance that goes into thing. I will say this, let's go back to my film. I believe that if narcissists do cry, what they're experiencing is pity, self-pity. They're not crying for anything other than themselves. Yeah, I agree. They'll never cry for somebody else. They feel sorry for themselves. And the pity is what makes them cry. And people think, oh my God, they're feeling all these things and they're so deep in this bottomless well of wonderfulness and yada, yada, yada. Yeah.

[00:12:04] I feel like that reminds me of season two of The Vow with certain tears. Yeah, exactly. Like those are tears, but what are the tears for? What are the tears for? Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control, and Coercion is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the combination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research.

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[00:17:45] Thanks Raycon for sponsoring. Sponsor Breaks Den. Back for more culty stories. Yeah. Because there's the thing about, you know, when you see somebody hurt or somebody, it's interesting. In these interviews I've been doing with J.J.

[00:18:14] Jaff and Keelan and a whole bunch of other people now for Instaguru, there are times when, you know, when we're like this, you know, looking at each other on the screen. Like I just start crying. I'm crying because what they're describing is so painful and it sort of touches something inside of me. And then what happens is, you know, if you have that experience, you assume that when others are crying, it's for the same reason. And you assume like, oh my God, they're feeling the depth of what I felt. No, they're not. At all.

[00:18:43] They could be feeling fucking nothing, but they feel sorry for themselves. One of the things that, just to go back to the film, you know, one of the things that happens in the film, because we touch on politics in the film. And we touch it in the sense that, you know, that one of our narcissists says, you know, these people basically work their way to the very top. You know, that politics is a great place for them. And a lot of people come up to me and say like, oh, you're talking about the president. You're talking about this. And I say things like, you know, when you look at politics,

[00:19:12] there's some people that just look obviously, they're obviously narcissistic. They're grandiose. But I don't think they're the most dangerous. I think it's the covert ones that are the most dangerous. The ones that speak the language of love and light and, you know, helping people and blah, blah, blah. That's more dangerous to me than the people that are, you know, just braggadocious. Is that a word? Braggadocious? Braggadocious. It is now. Is that a word? Bragg it like a ding dong.

[00:19:41] That's the soundbite. We did not smoke weed before we had this conversation, by the way. But we could have. But we could have. And we might still. And the day is young. But if I did, I would be nervous. To your point, Mark, you know, you have people with belief systems and everyone's belief system can have an extreme version of itself. And when it becomes extreme, the behavior becomes overt and you wear it on your sleeve. Or it becomes more covert and you pretend that you're not doing it and you pretend that you can't go too far. Yes. Yes.

[00:20:11] And that's it. And that's the thing. I worry more about the covert stuff in the world. It confuses people. I know. Because if people, if you're saying something's going on and people are telling you it's not, then it's a very hard thing to measure and then address. Yes. Yes. Unrelated to anything, what are those three gold things between the two of you on that cabinet there? Spotify awards. Spotify awards. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

[00:20:37] I don't know if they're like, I think they're more of a Christmas present than a, than like an actual award. Was that for viewership or what? I don't know. They're a treat digger rap awards. I got two of them. Nice. I think it was like kind of, it came with me too, just as an accident. So they're not really. Nice. Spotify has been very supportive. But they look like we won something. Yeah. It looks like you guys cashed in somewhere. No, it looks like we did something like three straight years. Like, oh, yes.

[00:21:08] Yes. Let's just pretend. Yeah. Let's just pretend. Yes. Yes. Just to make sure we don't wrap up in an awkward way. I was a judo champ in high school. Yeah. I was fifth grade judo champ. Sarah and I have like these jokes every now and then, like randomly, we'll just bark out one of his achievements. You know? I love it. I love it. Did you know I ran a hundred yard dash? I love it. Oh my God. Sarah's like, I was a judo champ. That's great. It's fine. We do laugh. I don't look back. I don't look back at believing all that with shame anymore because now I'm just like, you know what?

[00:21:37] Everybody believes some weird fucked up shit. But at first I was like, how the fuck did I believe that? I just wish that I had known what, how IQ scores work because I used to think that he was 240, which now I know. It's astronomical. It's like, I didn't even know how astronomical it was. I just would shout it out. Like, I just, just like, and that's in the book too. Like, do your research. Like, like I didn't even check to see any of the things that, that was his claims. Well, I did with the person that enrolled me. I'm like, what is this?

[00:22:06] What is this? And he was in the Guinness Book of World Records once. And I actually saw it. Yeah. The Guinness Book of World Records. But you, but you guys addressed it in your book. You addressed the whole trusting, you know, leveraging other people's trust. Yeah. Yeah. Like a lab coat doctor wearing a lab coat. Yeah. Let me just want to make sure that there's not an awkward ending because I know you have a legal call, which we end in like six minutes. Well, I do want to talk just a bit about what we're trying to do with the film as well. And what just, I want to plug a few things. The one thing I want to plug is this podcast, Instaguru. It's called Instaguru. The A is an at sign.

[00:22:37] Instaguru, Bentinho Massaro. That's on YouTube and also on all podcast platforms. And we've done seven so far. There's a lot of stuff that's still coming. I just interviewed a spiritual teacher that knew Bentinho many years ago. So there's a lot of people, you know, there's also a book, you know, there's a book now as well about all this. Yeah. That just came out. It's called Ander Hreep van de Guren, which is the Dutch for In the Grip of the Guru, written by this journalist, Ivo van Vorden, who I've been working with for five years as well. He interviews about 60 people. Wow.

[00:23:06] So that's pretty amazing. Of the box? Is the box still on the run? The box is in the Himalayas. He has withdrawn from the material world. Is he in the... This is like a seven dimension now? No, he's dissolved in the self-consciousness. But he did write a passive aggressive letter while he was distanced from the world. Dissolving? And he called... He can't do that. He called the defectors and journalists alligators. So we're not alligators. It's kind of like suppressants, you know. We're alligators.

[00:23:35] But anyway, so that's coming out. That's out already. We're going to do a lot more. There are people coming forward that nobody's ever heard from before because they're listening to the podcast. And a lot of people that left that didn't really do the deep programming work are listening to the podcast going, oh shit. And now they're reaching out and talking. So that's pretty amazing. Is that on your channel? That's on my channel. It's on WTF. It's on my mind. Yeah, same channel. Great.

[00:24:04] We're going to do a lot more. We're going to do a lot more. And what we're trying to do is basically we want the film to be seen by as many people as possible. And the two things we need to do that are basically, we want people to be aware that it exists and we need the resources to do our outreach, marketing, advertising, and putting in theaters ourselves. So that's what all of the money that we're raising is going towards is basically doing all of that. And of course, you know, there are some legal fees as well. You know? So good cause. Also what we could do, Mark, is yeah, good cause. We could put at the beginning of the month, in two weeks, we have a newsletter that comes out.

[00:24:34] We could put a little article about it there and there's I think like 2,000 or 3,000 people. Not a ton, but you know, it'll get to that group too. Yeah. And you know, another thing I was thinking about, what I love about like, because our podcasts are slightly different. You know, you guys are showing the pattern consistently across multiple cults, which I think is so important. And my obsession, if you want to understand, is a lot more just about the pathology. Like that's my obsession, but it won't last forever.

[00:25:01] It's like what it is for now, but I'm obsessed with the pathology and then seeing how it plays out at all different scales. I tend to not get too deep into the weeds with politics. I talk about the pattern as opposed to the specifics because people are so fucking reactive, you know? Yeah. You can't get into the content. No, which is so interesting because there are, you know, as we know, cult experts who really do get into the politics and I feel like they're alienating the other side. I know. I know. It's a huge problem.

[00:25:30] But Mark, this addresses what you're doing because this is actually what the narcissist set up. Yeah. They set up a tumultuous atmosphere where people, good people are at each other's throats and not recognizing they have a common enemy. I'm so happy you said that because that's exactly what's going on. The PSYOP that was designed is basically having us triangulating all of us against each other. Right. And we don't stop to look at- Based on stupid shit. Stupid shit. Gender, race. Stuff that you can't change.

[00:26:00] The stuff you can't change, I can understand giving people a hard time with. The stuff you cannot change. Right. It's, what is it, immutable? You can't change it. Immutable characteristics. And it's a perpetual fight. Yeah. They can fund a perpetual fight. And if you take the bait, you're in the sky. You're deep in the trenches. And like I say to people, the news is not true. And they go, yeah, well, the other news is not true. My news is true. I'm like, my God, you're in a trauma bond with your own fucking abusers.

[00:26:28] And Mark, all this said, I'm still susceptible to it. I still catch myself going. Me too. I have that guilty pleasure of seeing someone that I don't like get it. Yes. So like, this is someone, I'm not saying I'm evolved, but I'm saying I'm still like, I still have that like, good, glad that happened. Like. Yes. So I know there's, like, I know it lives in me. That's still in us versus them. Yeah. It still lives in me to a certain degree. Right? So it's like, you don't even know what's going on.

[00:26:56] I see things and I get upset and I'm like, oh, I can't believe that happened. And then I dig deeper and I go, that didn't happen. Fuck. Fuck. There's so many things that I'd really like. I'd really love to like, find out. We should have a bitch sesh episode. We should. Come to the episode with a list of things that we just want to fucking riff about. And maybe if we can bring in someone else. Yeah. Maybe Karen Entriner? Let's just have a next bitch session. She won't bitch quite the same way.

[00:27:26] No. She's still. No. We need somebody petty. We need somebody petty. Yeah. Dude. Have you? Mark. I'm real petty. Mark. I'm obsessed with pettiness. I told Sarah this. I told. Really? It's my. We had an experience about four or five years ago where I was pulling out of an apartment complex. Right. And there was a guy and it was kind of a busy two lane road with a median. So your left hand. You can tell the story so much quicker. You had your left hand turn wide around a median. Right.

[00:27:55] And the arrow was really short because it's apartment complex and on a major like through way. Right. Just hit it. Just let him know it was there. He does a wide turn. Let's me get in front of him to the next stoplight. Comes up behind me and honks at me. And I was like, so petty. It's so. I was so obsessed with like, why would he take the time to do that? And I just.

[00:28:24] Do you know why that doesn't happen in Texas? Why? Everyone's. Everyone's packing. Yeah. You do not do that shit in Texas. But it wasn't even like malevolent. It was just like. Let's not. Don't beep at people. It was. I had a question. I remember what it was from. Sarah's trying to get focused. Sarah's trying very hard to get focused. I remember what it was. Intentions offer. That's what's going on. Fuck off. Nippy and I both pointing at each other in your film about narcissism, by the way. You do that. Oh, you do that. No, you do that. I won. We all do a bit of everything.

[00:28:54] Yeah. But listen, what I was going to ask you is even after all this information, everything we've learned. I mean, Nippy and I realized in writing the book where we learned more about ourselves, about our situational vulnerabilities. And, you know, even when I wrote Scarred six years ago to writing a little bit culty now, I learned more about how I got in trouble in the first place. Like there's obvious things like community and purpose and, you know, wanting to work with you and change the world and my idealism and stuff.

[00:29:21] But then I learned so much more about like my fawning and my people pleasing and my, you know, wanting the gold star and being special and like more of the like underbelly of everything. Yeah. Where do you think your remaining vulnerabilities still lie? Like what, where do you get in trouble in terms of missing some of these things? And I can share ours too, if you want, so you don't feel alone. Yeah. Let me, let me, before I do that, I wanted to share one of the, the thing, because I think it's, you asked me a great question. One of the things I've really learned and it's in the end of the film, there's a moment

[00:29:51] where Richard Grannon says something like, it's not just the narcissist that are the problem. It's us who keep on worshiping them. Yeah. And I think a lot about that because people say like, well, how do we change this? And I keep thinking, well, we change it by, by not worshiping them, by not putting them on a pedestal. Right. If we didn't give Veneri the respect and adoration, he never would have been able to do what he did. Right. Right. So there's a certain power that we have in terms of, so that's just something important in terms of my vulnerabilities.

[00:30:19] I think that I still obsessively project goodness on people. And I still want to be part of something wonderful and great. And I, and I meet people sometimes that I think, oh, and they're very excited and they want to do stuff with me. And I think, oh, this is going to be great. And like, I start to get this feeling of like, I found another one of my people and then I started to get kind of involved in it.

[00:30:45] And then I realized like, oh no, I, they just got excited for a split second. And when they say things, they don't mean anything that they're saying. They're just fucking, you know, diary out of their mouth. And I go, fuck, I did it again. Totally. I fucking got, I got excited about like an idea or a project or something. And the thing is, I don't want to be the kind of person that doesn't get excited. You know, I don't want to be like, you're all fuckers. Fuck you all. Sometimes I feel that, but generally I want to be the person that just looks at every single thing and goes, yeah, I don't know.

[00:31:14] So I'm trying more and more to like sit with my gut, like my gut feeling, but also recognize this is what's important. When I get overexcited, that's a red flag. When I get like batshit overexcited, I have to say to myself, that's like when you're a teenager and you fall in love. It's like stupid chemicals, right? Yeah. That's the thing I have to really watch carefully because I am enthusiastic and I am excited.

[00:31:42] And should I want to do, you know, I'm fucking 60 years old. I got only so much time fucking left. Like I'm excited. But like sometimes that excitement gets a bit like wobbly and I don't understand it at the moment, but there's actually fear in there as well. It's like gambling, you know, you get excited, but you're afraid as well. That's the thing I still have to really watch. I have to watch out for that. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And we, we haven't been, you know, duped by a cult leader per se, but we've been in situations with business where we, we, we weren't necessarily love bombed, but we were

[00:32:10] buttered up, you know, we were buttered up. And I felt, Oh, like totally felt my people excited about projects. And I did the same thing again, which was not researching, not getting reference, like not doing reference checks. Well, also I think there's a component. So that a reference check when you get that excited, I totally do the same thing. Making good decisions around people requires, you have to be a hundred percent authentic with yourself and the other situation in order to discern. Cause you have to go, well, I don't want to make a decision that's going to offend.

[00:32:41] I'm like, you have to be somewhat ruthless in that and figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't seem ruthless. It's just good decision-making really. And recognizing the impulses that inform bad decisions. Even cult podcasts need sponsors. Check out these must-haves. When I tell people their phone bill could be 15 bucks a month, they look at me like I'm

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[00:34:36] Now, let's resume our culty combo. Yeah, totally. Without punishing ourselves for having them. Because we're just fucking human, right? Yeah. Like, what I try not to do is, I try not to say, oh my God, I did it again. Or like, I try not to say, you're so stupid. But I try to go like, yeah, I can see why. I can see why. Because, you know, I feel these things and I feel those things. I don't want to destroy those things in me. My exuberance. And just be forgiving, you know?

[00:35:03] Because I think, I've seen it a lot with people that leave spiritual organizations. And I was one of these people. I just threw everything out. We've discussed this before. I just fucking threw everything out, you know? And now I'm sort of immersing myself back into spirituality. But it's sad. It's sad when you throw out the very things that defined you in your life that were interesting to you. You know, that your soul felt moved towards. So yeah, I think it's good not to like, beat yourself up and close the door.

[00:35:30] And I know, Sarah, you told me this fucking, you know, seven years ago you were saying this to me. Just took a little while. Yeah. What did I say? You're saying, don't close the door and everything. Yeah. I was so wise. You were. You were. You were. No, the other thing I was, when you were talking about areas of susceptibility, you know, putting people on a pedestal. And I think that goes into the excitement.

[00:35:53] Like when I met you and we've talked about this many times, I put you on a pedestal and I was so excited to work with you and be a part of this team of humanitarians changing the world. Big red flag. Yeah. And you put Keith on a pedestal. And, you know, we, I was just thinking, I was thinking about that, how, like, I definitely put him on a pedestal with certain things. But other things, like when I saw women talking about, like, what Keith said, we only need X amount of calories. And then they were, like, making fun of my quinoa and avocado because that was too many calories.

[00:36:23] And I'm like, Keith's not a nutritionist. So, like, somewhere inside me, I didn't have him fully on a pedestal. Do you know what I mean? Like, but I did with other things. Yeah. No, it's the same with me with people. But also, by the way, if they had quinoa and avocado, they may not have made some of the decisions they made because their brain would have worked. Their brains were not working. Their brains were not working. That's partly what saved me with him, at least. I mean, not all the way because I got, obviously we got, I got branded.

[00:36:51] But, you know, I didn't move to Albany. I didn't take his, his invitations for, you know, further projects or whatever. Well, he wasn't the authority on everything for you. He wasn't the authority on everything for me. So, I guess that's sort of one of the lessons is, like, you can put somebody on a pedestal and, well, you can respect what they do without putting them on the pedestal, I guess is what I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm sorting this out as I say it. Like, you can meet them and go, wow, they've really done a good job with that film or whatever.

[00:37:18] Like, Martin Scorsese is a really good filmmaker, but he also is not a. I'm not going to take his stock advice. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. I know what you're saying because, like, I look at people and I go, they've walked a road that I haven't walked yet that I want to walk. And they've done it very well and I respect that. But, like, they may be an asshole in other areas, you know. And I think what I do is I don't now elevate them to, like, almost fucking Jesus-like status. Yeah. Like I used to, you know. Right. Yeah, there's stuff. Like, how do you not fawn?

[00:37:46] And thank you, by the way, for introducing us to Dr. Ingrid Clayton. Isn't she amazing? By the way, she was at the UCLA screening. She came to see the film. What would she say? By the way. She was stunned. Stunned. She was stunned. That must have been really a hard watch for her, too. I think so. I think she was sitting next to Romani watching it. What did Romani think of it? She's very happy. She's very happy. Yeah. I've been meaning to message her. There's a lot of networks that can get this out, Mark. I agree. I messaged Evan last night to say that I thought she did a great job.

[00:38:16] Was that her song that she sang at the end? That's her song at the very end, yeah. It's so beautiful. Isn't it amazing? Yeah. It's so beautiful. But yeah, I think that's a good lesson. I'm figuring it out as I'm saying it to both of us. And I don't think Nippy does this in the same way, but I think you and I have a similar pattern of propping somebody up and then being like, oh my God, they're gushing a little bit. And so how do you root out the respect that's necessary for that thing without trading our own autonomy in a moment?

[00:38:45] Like I'm really trying hard to say how I feel about something in real time, which is really hard for me because in real time I'm like, yeah, sure. And then later I'm like, fuck, you know? No, I know. Because I'm still fawning. Yeah. No, I get it though. But it's a survival instinct. I was thinking about, you know, people say, oh, I don't do that. But like, it was a 2015 I met Spielberg for the first time and Lucas and JJ Abrams. Wow. All in one place? Yeah.

[00:39:15] And I hung out and talked to them. I was like fucking high. I was high. You know, everybody has those moments, you know, where you fanboy or fangirl over somebody. It's that thing, you know? It's that thing just when they call it, it lasts a bit longer until you realize they're all schmucks, you know? Yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. I want to be like so bulletproof and self-assured that I can just say it in real time. I'm working on it. Look at us growing. No, look at us growing.

[00:39:45] Oh, Nippy's working on it with me. I could give Nippy a little bit more. That's what I meant. A little more padding. No, but how about when I called you after about three weeks ago and was like, look, this is the authentic part. Nippy's working on his authenticity. I'm working on. No, no, no, no. Okay, I'll let you tell him. So Mark. I think I sent you the meme, the Carl Jung one, where it talks about how your clarity becomes a problem for the people that are abusing power. And because you have clarity, you now become the perpetrator.

[00:40:15] And Nietzsche went crazy because he weaponized his clarity and he didn't integrate his clarity as a utility, as an asset into the human team. Yeah. Right. So you have this skill set of clarity, let's say. And instead of weaponizing it and beating people over the head with it and being mad at them for not having it, you can integrate it into your persona and it becomes an asset to the people that you're around.

[00:40:40] And the reason you wouldn't is because you project the intent behind it, meaning you're not being authentic because of XYZ. And because you haven't integrated the behavior that you see as bad and owned it and evolved it, you'll never be able to integrate your clarity in a meaningful way. Can we not use the word integrate? Well, I like it. Does that make sense? No, no, I get it. Does that make sense? So for me, I was like, okay, I think I'm authentic. You think I'm authentic.

[00:41:09] I say what I think often. But then I was in a doctor's office and I was agreeing with something with the doctor that I didn't agree with. And I wasn't being authentic. And I busted myself. So I have this persona that's rooted in being authentic. But I was in a situation where I wasn't saying what I was thinking. And I walked out of it and I go, that's the Carl Jung thing. I'm not authentic in all my situations. And I was afraid of a conflict. And I was like, fuck.

[00:41:37] So I called Sarah on the phone and I said, look, I just busted myself. And there's other areas of my life where I'm not being authentic. And I'm just going to dive in and say it and free myself of the prison of shaming myself for being inconsistent. That's all I was doing. I was just shaming myself for being inconsistent. And saying the hard thing. No, doctor, I don't agree with this. And I did it. And I went in and I was like, it was totally fine. I can do it. I've done it a thousand times.

[00:42:04] But in that moment, it was an aha moment, I guess. I think we should give Nippy the first stripe on his orange sash. I've got to write a speech first. Or at least give you an amen. I mean, at least give you an amen for that one. I'll take an amen. I'll take an amen. I'll take an amen. I'll even thank God. I'll even thank God. There you go. Speaking of sashes, there's a question that's came up for me recently. Mark is totally unrelated, but just bear with me.

[00:42:28] Do you remember when I got promoted to green sash and they skipped me from three stripe orange to green? Do you remember that? Yes. Yes. Since you were my upline, were you ever consulted about that? Or did you know that was coming? I forgot about it. I'm sure I was. And I think it may also have happened. There were a lot of fights that I had with them about how is so-and-so getting promoted? And I had fights about you. And I said, how the fuck are you doing this?

[00:42:57] She produces and provides so much fucking value for this. I do not understand. Then there were fights about this and fights about that. And I think what happened, I'm not saying that I caused the jump, but I did think that I started to point out certain people that were being jumped. And I'm like, that doesn't fucking make any sense. What about this and this and here? But I always get accused of nepotism because you were my business partner that was seen as nepotism, which I mean, my God, talk about nepotistic, those motherfuckers. Yeah. I don't remember.

[00:43:26] I don't remember the exact reason. I do remember it being discussed. And I do remember feeling like fucking finally, because I thought it mattered. I thought it meant something. I do too. I also think that because I'd had Troy, because Troy was like just three months old and I was sort of pulling him back. I feel like it was also what I found out later in the term, a motivational promotion to keep me in. Because they skipped a stripe, which I had never seen before. The way we used to chase that shit. Well, they skipped stripes with other people too. They skipped stripes with people he was fucking.

[00:43:57] So there's that. Yeah. Do you remember when, I'm not going to say the name of the person, but it was somebody that was under me, was supposed to be, it must have been to Proctor. And I knew that this person was bulimic. And I brought it up to their coach and they said it didn't matter. And I was like, wait, but they're not going to promote this other, yeah. You forgot the metric of blowjobs though, because that may have played a factor. Which I also was not willing to do. But that was my... I'm afraid to know.

[00:44:26] I'm just kidding. Can I do that? Oh my God. Oh, it's really just derailed. It's getting feisty here. Sorry. We have to end it. I think it's time to end this fucking episode before we go to places with regret. This is going to be real fun for our NXIVM nerds. Anyway, well, is there anything that we didn't ask you that you wanted to say or plug? We'll put all the show notes, put it in the newsletter. No, I don't think so. I mean, I think just, you know, please, please support the film that we're doing.

[00:44:56] You know, I think it's very, very important. I think the film literally gives you a... I hate to say it, but it gives you a perceptual shift. Like going through the film, you go in one way and there's this reversal that happens. You come out with like, holy shit. And then what happens is, true to my nature, I guess, you start reviewing the first 50 minutes in your mind and you start realizing like, oh, I missed it there. I missed it there. I missed it there. I missed it there. So I think it's a very... It is inductive. Dare I say, inductive experience.

[00:45:26] It is inductive. But I mean, that's the shit I love. I mean, that's why I was so attracted to ESP anyway. But yeah, I would just love your audience's support of like all the stuff we're doing. It's important work. I believe it's important work. I'll just remind you that you have always wanted to shift consciousness with media and you're doing it again. So that's really great, Mark. Always. Always. I feel like I'm on the path that we discussed so long ago. That would have been funny.

[00:45:59] But I do, by the way, I may be getting access to some recordings from prison though. So there's that. Okay. One last thing I'll say about induction and we'll wrap it up. Do you think that Keith Raniere... Remember the metaphor he used about the sixth sense and how when we were teaching, like, this is what it feels like. Oh, Bruce Willis is dead. And you recapitulate. Do you think... Remember when we had that moment when you're like, what if Keith isn't who he says he was with me? And I was like, oh my God, he's a sociopath. And then we recapitulated.

[00:46:28] Do you think that he ever thought that, that eventually we were going to have the Bruce Willis is dead, Keith Raniere is a sociopath moment? No. Never. I don't think he ever, ever thought that would happen. Like, I think that he really believes in his own quote unquote genius. That's outside the realm of possibility. Just like he never thought about what people would do when you hurt their spouse. There's so many gaps in his...

[00:46:57] It never crossed his mind that Nippy would do what he would do and mobilize for the war after he hurt you. Because he doesn't operate that way. So that's a complete blind spot. What parents will do. What spouses will do. He took a shot at my family. What friends will do. I don't think he understood. I'm shooting his house. He doesn't understand how it works. That's not what you do to me. No, he doesn't.

[00:47:25] It's the worst thing you could do to me. That's, thank goodness, his weakness. That's his weakness. Because he doesn't feel the outrage that you're talking about. And so, thank goodness he didn't feel the outrage. And let me tell you, there's other things he provoked and people didn't follow through. Had they followed through, he would not be walking this earth. So, the end. Have a good rightful practice. Next week. Mark has been so fun. I'm back in the range, baby. Back in the range.

[00:47:55] Well, thank you so much for your time. This is always fun. This will not be on our Patreon channel. This will be on the real deal. I'm going to find this guy. If you ever want to do another Patreon chat, you let us know. And, wait. Am I saying goodbye? Let me say goodbye. Say goodbye. Go ahead. Go ahead. Goodbye. I got to go. I got to call. I got to go. I got to go. We were like that all the time. Or was it mostly me? Was it mostly me?

[00:48:25] I think it was probably all of us. It was probably. I was power walking. You were power walking. You were always huffing and puffing. Always huffing and puffing. I was always, I had five meetings about to happen. Yeah, you did. And, uh. Nippy, you did it sometimes. But you were more, you were more. You didn't do that to your day. Nippy is an abrupt phone. Nippy ends phone call. He doesn't even say goodbye. I'm still talking. He's already hung up on me. Yeah, it's all right. Okay, I'm going to just stop. No, Nippy always says later to me. Later. And then the conversation's done. Yeah.

[00:49:09] All right, everybody. That was a marathon. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we did. Let us know who else you'd like to hear in the Where Are They Now series. Until then, have a great summer. And, uh. Where are you now? Where are you? Let us know. Can't wait to hear from you. Bye.

[00:49:49] We hope you're enjoying A Little Bit Culty. If so, please do show us some love. Drop a rating. Or leave a review. Hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Even better, send this episode to someone who needs it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit susceptible. Or maybe they just love a good story. Spread the word. Spread the love. Thanks for listening. And see you next time. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:50:19] In collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple Tardy. Our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsenbor. Writing by Sandra Nomoto. And social media marketing by Eric Swarczynski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.