Danny Rensch Returns: Stories Behind Dark Squares and Untold: Chess Mates (Part 1)

[00:00:00] We always recommend Shopify. It took us from an idea to a real business. We got set up, I think, in less than a day with very little effort. We could just focus on the supply chains and the product development. Shopify gives us the ability to customize without the complexity. We can change something without introducing fragility or having to pay a developer. We're Thirsty Turtle and we leveled up our business with Shopify. Start your free trial at shopify.com.au

[00:00:30] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:58] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult and that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:01:26] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A, and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season eight of A Little Bit Culty. Seeking down to the depths of the ocean. Welcome back. How about a welcome back? It's our podcast. It's our podcast. You didn't tell me you hit play. I hit play. Or record.

[00:01:55] Recording. We are recording and we have so much breaking news of things that are happening in the cultiverse, I don't even know where to start. You break news, I fix it. First of all, today, which means in a couple weeks, you'll be hearing from Dr. Christine Marie, the incredibly brave, badass woman who infiltrated the FLDS community in the creek. Honestly, that's a new branch of our government, which she just established. She doesn't know it yet.

[00:02:22] This documentary, if you've not seen Trust Me, The False Prophet on Netflix, please watch that because you'll want to watch that before you hear our interview with her, which drops in a couple weeks. You will appreciate it more. You'll appreciate it more. That's sort of like breaking news in the cultiverse. But there's something else we haven't even talked about. And I know that Nippy doesn't know about this yet. Maybe I do. We'll find out. You're about to find out. It's a TikTok trend where the youth. Don't know it.

[00:02:46] Of America are breaking into Scientology buildings around the world. Actually, no, that's probably not true. In America, but definitely America. But recently, it just hit home because they broke into the one in Vancouver. Like a Scientology building I've walked past many times. Oh my God, it's a dump. It's a total dump, first of all. And that was, by the way, near the old Vancouver ESP Center executive success programs. We were definitely winning in the cult wars. Yeah. Yeah. Although I still have friends in the Vancouver Scientology space. I hope you're listening. Carry on.

[00:03:16] Anyway, so they're breaking in and like speed running through and trying to map out the interior and like with cameras on their heads so they can get further. It's like a game. It's like they're trying to get further and further in and like figuring out what's inside. Oh my God, it's a great use of TikTok. Well, it's such an interesting phenomenon. Like in one hand, like let's break apart the secrecy of it all and screw Scientology. Way to take a stand. I'm taking a stand.

[00:03:41] On the other hand, and I've heard Leah Remini talk about this publicly, it's not great because it's reinforcing for the Scientologists that the outside world is destructive and not to get them. And like it's not helping Scientologists get out, which is a problem. At the same time, I'm happy that there's like light being shone on the issue. So that's good. Here's the other thing. Like how many people are getting out of Scientology? You know, like how many people are left? Like what are the forensics on Scientology? I have no idea. I don't know. A lot of real estate.

[00:04:09] But one of the things I thought was interesting in the news article that came out in Vancouver about it is they were talking about like this is a hate crime and it's against religion. And I want to be, I want to write to the journalist and be like, that's not a religion. That's not a religion. They pretend to be a religion for the tax write-offs. They have to adopt the victim. Yeah. And I'm just like, why isn't anyone aware of that? So maybe it's time for me to write a harsh email to the journalist to expose it. I'm going to just do it. Do it. ChatGPT do it too. I will. With lots of M dashes. Yeah. So those are some things that are happening. Yes, we're following.

[00:04:39] Yes, we'll probably do an episode on Nature Boy. Thank you for everyone who's been reaching out about all these latest things in the cult of ours. Is that a rapper? No. No? It is not a rapper. I know, Sarah. More to come on that. But anyway, who's our guest today, Nip? The Ranch. Minus the W. Danny Ranch No W. Today's guest, Danny Ranch, is no stranger to the show. But this time we caught up with him in person in Atlanta.

[00:05:05] In case you don't remember, Danny Ranch is the international chess master and Chess.com's chief chess officer. It's the CCO. It's a new title for all the C-suites out there. Danny Ranch is back following his earlier appearance this season when we talked about his memoir, Dark Squares. Technically, this would fall into the sort of where are they now category, but it's too recent to make it. Where are they now? It's more of a follow-up because all this stuff has been happening in Danny's life. Because he's doing shit. He's doing shit.

[00:05:34] But Danny Ranch makes shit happen. This time we're diving into what has happened since he was on our podcast last time, including stepping into the spotlight in Netflix's Untold Chessmates. Have you seen it? I have seen it, yes. Tell us about the documentary, Nippy. Documentary explores the rise, rivalry. I have a hard time with the word. Not heated rivalry, just to be clear. And real-life drama behind one of the most fascinating chapters in modern chess. If you're in the chess world, you've for sure heard about it.

[00:06:01] It pulls back the curtain on the personalities, pressure, and unexpected twists that turned a cerebral game into a global spectacle. And even if you're not into chess, I do think this is a fascinating documentary. We did watch it with our son, Troy, who's almost 12, and he really likes chess as well. And the only thing I would say is that there is mention of sex toys in the documentary. So if you feel comfortable explaining what anal beads are to a teenager, then— Which I did not. I didn't.

[00:06:31] I wasn't expecting that. But I feel like, I mean— You didn't seem too uncomfortable with it. I just was like, that's a thing that some people do. It was a difficult one. I fled the fifth. But— And the anal beads do have an important role in the documentary, and you'll see why. But it's not about sex toys. It's about chess. Anyway, it's a big leap, but you'll understand when you see it. And Danny's caught up in the middle of it all, and this is a really fascinating conversation about the world of chess, about his— The world in general. Yeah, the world.

[00:07:01] We live in a world, Sarah. We live in a world, Nippy. We live in a world. That's one of Nippy's thought-stopping cliches that he does with me when I'm— Guilty. I don't— I'll be talking about something, and his response will be, we live in a world. Yes, Nippy. We live in a world. And Danny talks about this world. We live in a world, Sarah. From the board to the big screen, Danny brings insight, honesty, and just the right amount of chaos to the conversation. This two-parter covers a lot of ground, and we had so much fun. It was so great to do it in person because we are going to be launching properly a YouTube

[00:07:31] studio here from our office. With his help. Thanks to Danny Wrench. Here's part one. Danny Wrench, the mensch. Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everyone. We are here with Danny Ranch. We're pimping his merch, as you will. It's the only time we've actually shared the spotlight with A Little Bit Culty.

[00:08:01] When this turns on, that means we're in interview mode. Danny was one of our all-time favorite guests back in episode season, I don't even know what. I have it up if you want me to check. Sure, you check that. But if you haven't listened to episode one, we highly recommend it. It was such a great chat. Two-parter, actually, where we talk about Danny's book, Dark Squares, how chess saved my life. We love this book. And Danny happened to be in town tonight for an event here in Atlanta. So here we are in our home interviewing Danny for the second time.

[00:08:30] And if you don't know who he is and have been living under a rock, he's an international master. He's the co-founder of... Sorry, he is the... I was going to screw that up. I have like a mental block. You know there's a name for people who have a mental block about getting people's names, right? Sarah. No, that's not it. The chief chess officer at chess.com. He is... And I wrote this when we signed his book. He had never heard this before, which was shocking, that Wrench rhymes with mensch.

[00:09:00] Okay? Mensch is like, means you're the most stand-up, awesome, character-driven, solid dude. And that is Danny Wrench. So welcome to the show, Danny Ranch, chess.com. He's the first chief chess officer we've had on the show. The first chief chess officer. That's what happens when you make up a title. You get to be the first. I wasn't going to say that. Of many things in that way. But anyway, thank you for having me. And I had never heard that before, despite the rhyming. So I really appreciate that. I'm really shocked that no one's ever said, like, Danny Wrench, you're a mensch or something. Thank you. Not a lot of Jews in Salt Lake.

[00:09:30] Or maybe not in chess? No, the Jewish community, there's a lot of... I would say that would be something they naturally gravitate to. But it is funny because, I mean, we're jumping right in. The leader of the collective team camp was Jewish. Okay. And he talked a lot about growing up in the... Not, like, fully Orthodox, but, like, it was a very Jewish family, his upbringing. So there were some influence in terms of Judaism, in terms of some of the things that we did or whatever. But no, like, the term mensch was not used that often, which maybe is revealing, I guess, in hindsight.

[00:10:00] He's not a mensch. He wasn't a real mensch, unfortunately. That's why. He's not a mensch. He was pretending to be a mensch. Pretending to be a mensch. And, yeah, I guess you can't really pretend or claim it yourself. No. Someone has to anoint you. Yeah. It's like manhood. Yeah. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm doing okay. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me. It's been a wild 24 hours, but we had dinner last night. It's great to meet you both in person. I'm actually most excited to talk about your book. So I've, like, destroyed... This is not the one that Sarah signed for me or that Nippy signed for me.

[00:10:30] This is just to have here, but... There's some crossovers. Yeah. I devoured your book over the last week. So I actually had my own notes in terms of things that really resonated with me as I've, you know, continue to sort of, you know, be a bit of an unreliable narrator in my own life, like coming to terms with things and having different perspective. And so I actually really enjoyed that. I know we'll get into that today, but I'm here for some wild book and chess event combos. We're going to cover a lot of ground. But you particularly is, you know, people, when you write a book, people are like, who'd you write this for?

[00:11:00] And like, who's your audience? And we have a couple of buckets, you know, trying to get college kids before they go off into the world to protect them. But somebody like yourself who went through this and obviously you've done a lot of deconstruction. You wrote your own book. You had to parse things apart and figure out, hey, what the f*** happened to me? Yeah. And even when I spoke to you, I could tell you'd done a lot of that work. Was there anything new for you that you, like, didn't know that was surprising? No, I appreciate that. I've done a lot of work. We'll continue to do a lot of work.

[00:11:27] But it's funny because when I first got the book, I was going to read it anyway because it's your book. And I, you know, wanted to kind of see what it was about. But I don't know that I necessarily put myself in the bucket of I'm going to get a lot of takeaways from this. I wasn't thinking that way. And I was like, of course I would get a lot of takeaways in hindsight to just have a dialogue and have someone else show some frameworks about how you look at not just being in a cult, but how you deal with, you know, just toxic and sort of, you know, high demand, high control groups and environments.

[00:11:56] And so there were several things actually that were not new in the sense that like light bulb, but hearing the way you articulate a couple of things. I know I told you last night at dinner, but I'm going to jump in that one of the things that really resonated with me the most was this concept that you haven't given your consent if you weren't being told the truth. And that almost hit me hard, like emotionally. I was one of the things that I've struggled with the most for anyone who's read my book knows

[00:12:23] or not is that what went down with me and my mom in particular was a very complicated, very like manipulative way that we sort of came to agree to our own separation, which was not just super fucked up, but it was like I was she was allowing me to be abducted. And I was, you know, convincing her that I was OK with it while like 12 years old crying through gritted teeth. And while her like framing this idea that, well, you better go because

[00:12:52] you're going to destroy my marriage. The whole thing was just like so messed up. But one of the things I've struggled with for many years and, you know, probably will still is that the tears I have cried about the idea being my idea that I was somehow choosing to be taken away from my mom, that I was not just on board with it, but I was to blame. And so years later, I'm just saying, you know, we don't care about my book today, like twist ending. My mom ends up dying young. I lose her anyway. I've had to do so much work to repair my relationship

[00:13:22] with my siblings were like they blamed me because they were younger than me. Right. Not anymore. Right. But in their very young world, they also were sort of told, well, Danny wants this and this is his idea. Right. Right. And so you're doing this like you're sort of doing this repair while you have, as you also said in this book, spiritually gaslit yourself for like a very long time that I was first of all, I gaslit myself to believing that I was on board with this because of the spirit of mission. But then to like try to like reconcile that, like I was a child and give

[00:13:52] myself the grace that was never an OK thing to do, even if I did think I was on board. But then this third layer I'm now getting to from reading this and that hit very hard, which is that, wait a second, like I'm not accountable for cooperating in something where like I wasn't being told the truth. And that was so that really hit hard with me. There are other specifics. I really do have one to note, but I wanted to start with that because that like I haven't even had a chance to talk to Shauna yet, my wife, about that just because it was really interesting for me to like

[00:14:21] be able to rewire some of my own self blame and shame over what ended up being the most explosive moment that tore apart my family and all these things that we dealt with from years later. So just giving myself a little more grace, that was really it was helpful. There's betrayal there. Yeah. Yeah. And what I hear you saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is you were still taking responsibility for something that wasn't your fault. Yes. Yes. Very simple way to say, you know, what you're saying is a hundred percent and I've been doing that for years.

[00:14:50] Right. And even now, I mean, I'll talk a little bit about some of the it's been overall very positive reactions about my book, not just like externally outside of the group, but also internally. Many people have been very grateful and proud and like, hey, like, thank you for I now tell people like I'm telling my therapist to read the book. I'm telling friends, I won't talk to you until you read Danny's book because it's useful for so many that there's something out there that explains what we went through. And that's got to feel good.

[00:15:18] Yeah. And so that's felt really good, like the support and people just feeling grateful for that. But the only negative reactions I've had, the first one I'll just say quickly, because it was, I think I expected that there were some people who would feel that this wasn't the whole story. But as I've said many times, it wasn't my job to tell the whole story. I actually was not writing a cult expose. This was not meant to be the tell that I don't respect people who want to do that, but that was not my goal. Right. I was not going to tell people's secrets that weren't mine.

[00:15:45] I wasn't here to expose people who had, you know, victims who weren't ready to talk about it yet. Right. There were all kinds of reasons why I you're never going to get it right either. So I think there were some people who like, for whatever their own reasons, like feel like I'm getting credit for telling the story of our group when to them, I didn't tell the full story. So, but that's, I would argue that's their own motives and their own, not my problem. Right. But the only other part of it that has been interesting

[00:16:10] has been people's reactions to back to your point about taking responsibility for something that wasn't mine. People's reactions to what I acknowledged was an orchestrated abduction, right? It was a, I was taken away. Like this was under the auspices and the guide of it being for the spiritual mission, biological relationships being just, you know, expendable. Yes. I was technically moved in with my dad and my step-mom, but really I wasn't, I would, they were just sort of used to leverage

[00:16:37] and take me away. I was basically just orphaned in, in plain sight. And as I've described the specifics of what it was that happened and how me and my mom were manipulated to anybody outside of the group, they're like, yeah, you were abducted. Like you were taken away. This was manipulative to make it your, you know, so that you were complicit in your own abduction, but there's no other term for what happened. But people who lived it have had a very hard time with naming

[00:17:02] it that. And I think it's partly because I think there are two reasons. Like one, like that's a very hard thing to acknowledge that you sort of allowed or stood by to, not because I have any blame, but I think it's hard to, it's been hard for me. I blame myself, let alone anyone else who would been older than me to be like, yeah, that really was never okay. How would, how did we all sort of look past that? And then the second thing is like, once you acknowledge that, I think it puts other

[00:17:28] things on the table in terms of a lot of what's happened in our group. And I think a lot of cults have this is you have this sort of existential crisis of, was it always intended to be a cult or did it happen accidentally? How much of this was premeditated and there was motive and there were ways that people were actively like literally taking advantage of people emotionally and psychologically versus absolute power did eventually corrupt absolutely, but it kind of just snuck up on

[00:17:58] everybody. And I think if you put people in buckets, those camps are still figuring themselves out. Like people are still struggling with it. And I think to acknowledge that there, that something like that could happen and that there were enough dominoes in place that in hindsight, there was no way there wasn't at least some part of it that was like premeditated, even if you thought you were doing it for the best. I think that makes it very hard for people because if that's on the table, then

[00:18:24] what other pain do they have in their life that is on the table that wasn't accidental, right? That maybe was premeditated. So, sorry, I'm rambling a lot at the start, but that's because you asked me. So that thing about just recognizing that I never consented because I wasn't being told the truth was like, it was very powerful for me. So thank you for writing that. You're so welcome. Both of you and now I'll shut up. It's your podcast. No, no, no. We don't want to hear. We don't want to talk. We want to hear from you. I think what you articulate too is like, it's case by case for people getting in as much as it is for

[00:18:54] them getting out. Yeah. And the more you can put language to your story, at least they can acknowledge, hey, even if I'm not, even if I'm not comfortable doing it in the way that you do it, Danny, which I imagine is someone that they respected in the community, right? I think one of the things that allowed us is we had some social equity within our community. It's like, if they found it, put language to it, I'm feeling it. That's a start. And you're not going to be able to use force to get anyone to

[00:19:22] do it because the things that hook you and keep you in are pride, embarrassment, I'm stupid. Or sometimes your own shame over what you've done to help perpetuate the machine. Which you have to forgive yourself for. It's easier to stay in. Sorry, go ahead. Which you have to forgive yourself for. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because that's one society hasn't really reconciled. We can go, you got fooled, you know that. But if you were a perpetrator and, you know, it's kind of, it's loyalty to the party, you know, 1984, everything was loyal to the party. If you were loyal to the party

[00:19:51] and did some egregious things, it's a harder journey for you to go back and go, stop doing it because you have to admit that you did those things. And I think Mike Reinder, guy from Scientology, is a guy that I think is the perfect example of someone like that. He was literally a front man legally for Scientology and perpetrated Scientology and then did an about face and was able to kind of... Have you read his book? I haven't. I have an extra copy if you want it. I love it.

[00:20:18] He died a year ago and we dedicated our book to him. And to me, like when I saw him take responsibility for it, I was like, that guy, not to put like judgment on it, but it's like he did way worse things, admittedly, and then did an about face and became a major advocate for taking Scientology, you know, as much as he could. It's him and Leah Remini are the ones that have been the most... And that's a process within itself, you know?

[00:20:44] But to your point, you have to put language to it. And ideally, people's process is going to be case by case and hopefully they can come along to at least getting to that inner piece where they don't feel guilty or responsible for things they did not have a choice in. But also like our cults, and this is where yours and ours, which seemingly on the outside may be completely different, the overlap is the est of it all, right? The personal development, landmark, Scientology all have this...

[00:21:12] It's a very mixed bag of all of those things. Mixed bag. And the overlap of the Venn diagram and that little crossover there is personal responsibility, right? You always have to see how you caused the thing. And, you know, there's... It's good to look at, you know, what was going on for you that you felt that pressure to say, yes, that's helpful to understand you, you know, in your journey into being who you are today.

[00:21:41] But you were also still a victim of a crime, right? Both things can happen. The curriculum has a built-in mechanism for you to protect them. Yeah, because they want it to be all your choice and make it look like free will. But it's not free will, as you said from the beginning, if you're being lied to. And that, just so we pay tribute to the right people, came from Joyce and Nina, who did a whole thing with us about coercion and consent. They're out there like trying to change laws right now and have been effective.

[00:22:09] Because if the knowledge is withheld, it's fraud. Which is why, you know, it's been hard to convict people of coercive control versus crime, like physical crimes, because it's hard to prove that people do that. Yeah, you can't fingerprint for emotional abuse. Which is crazy, right? It's not crazy, but it makes sense. That's why it exists. That's why it has existed for a long time and probably will continue to exist. And back to the purpose of your book,

[00:22:38] hopefully educating people and giving them some sort of framework, some mental models where they can spot these things. Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews and research.

[00:23:07] Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups and how to avoid, escape or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go-to resource, this is it. Available now on Amazon in print and as an ebook for Kindle. And yes, the audio book is coming soon, narrated by us. Just search A Little Bit Culty and grab your copy. Do it. Thanks everybody.

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[00:27:59] So many of the things she said just like popped into my brain, I think, just in reverse order. The idea that self-responsibility is at the core of attracting a lot of self-improvers and seekers. And it's so hard even for like a kid to give his own like child self grace because that was so indoctrinated into me. And then I turned those muscles of self-reflection, my own version of Carl Jung's, you know, quote.

[00:28:27] You know, I did all those things to build big muscles. So the fact that I see the strengths of being overly self-reflective makes it even harder for me to give my inner child like grace because it's like I built up an identity around I'm fine. Don't fuck with me. I figured it out. Yeah. Right. And so then you're like, I've carried so much of that for a very long time because when you see the, you know, the pros of overcoming your trauma. Right. It makes it like, all right, I don't need to.

[00:28:54] Yeah, but I don't need to go really acknowledge that this really deep pain that every once in a while comes out sideways or did for many years for me. Like whether it's, you know, drinking too much or whatever I would do to like. Like my wife always says, and this is just too, like the truth always comes out. You decide if it comes out straight or sideways. Right. And depending on how you're dealing with your shit is when the truth is coming out sideways or straight. Right.

[00:29:16] And like, so this has probably been, there's a top three, top five list, but I think of all the things I have personally struggled with, regardless of how you would objectively rank it in terms of the abuse I went through. Personally struggling with that. I was not responsible for orchestrating my own abduction. Like I was a kid. I was the least responsible party in that in terms of how you would rank anybody. For sure.

[00:29:42] But the pain that I have now had to carry, especially with my mom passing early, especially with trying to carry the mantle of, you know, trying to, I care about my younger siblings. Right. I care about how they felt about it. And then I have younger siblings on the other side and I don't want them to feel like it was their fault that they only remember me in their family. Like I was Dorian and Sadie. My younger siblings were five and seven when I came in. So there's been all kinds of pain on the other side of making sure that they know that as I found myself and essentially said, hey,

[00:30:11] what happened here with dad and your mom was not okay. That can be true while also saying, I love you dearly and I am your brother and you should remember me that way. But what you don't know is I was only there because I was taken away from my other family. And so I've tried to like do so much of that work and at the same time had a part of me that blamed myself for the whole problem. Right. Because if I had just not allowed myself to be manipulated, we wouldn't be here. Right.

[00:30:38] And so just thank you for I really mean that like I'm holding back emotions. That actually hit me. And I was like, I need to do more work on this for next therapy session. And the other thing you said that I'll just jump into because you mentioned language. And so since we're look at me, I'm interviewing you, too, about your book. Let me tell you what I've come to tell you about on your show today. I love it.

[00:30:58] So I made a joke and I made a joke, made a note that the idea of language becomes specific to group further isolating you from the outside world, I think, was very much an experience that anyone in our collective, the Church of Immortal Consciousness had. And hearing languages that are funny with other cults, because a lot of times there's also crossover. There's a Venn diagram of similar words or words that are used or different words that are kind of used to have the same meaning. Process. Yes. The process and clearing and, you know, hot seat.

[00:31:28] Yeah. Those are things that were used. But then also sort of being in integrity and then like dis, what was the word that's like when you're not? It's like dis in. Oh, in ours? Yeah. You were disintegrated. Disintegrated. Yeah. Right. You had a disintegration. You could be disintegrated and you could have a disintegration. And so for us, there was also this term demerged. Yeah. You were either like merged within the collective like consciousness and you were like living by the teaching or you were demerged. Right. Right. Yeah. And so I made a note about that.

[00:31:56] And so that along with just a different use of words people know, like integrity is a word people know, but how it can be used as both like noun, verb, different ways to describe where you're at in your current process. Right. Yeah. I just made a note that I think that that was just an interesting way to appreciate how hard it was to kind of re-assimilate with the world, but also similar to what I've said the first time I was on the show, not throw certain babies out with the backwater either. Right.

[00:32:22] So you go, there's this self-improvers diagram, people who self-reflect and are willing to do some hard work for whatever reason, maybe because we were really early wounded to believe that we weren't good. We have developed these skills of being willing to seek good. I don't know what it is. Right. But you have this people who are looking for this and all these terms that you have used to kind of build up how you do this. But then you learn that language and that framework is also like messing you up and keeping you separate. So anyway, that was another note I made.

[00:32:49] Language is the thing that since leaving and since I'm so sensitive to the use or abuse of language. Yeah. And people forcing you to use certain language. Or labeling you. And redefining terms. It's like, I know what you're doing. Yeah. You know. Well, just from your, now I say monologue. Because I love. I never know. They're not monologues. They're guitar solos. Your guitar solos. Your guitar solos.

[00:33:14] From your previous guitar solo, you said something about how your tendency to be like, yeah, I figured it out. I'm good now. Yeah, yeah. Is. I don't do that. I don't remember cracking a joke. Love Nippy is that he self-reflects. But it's in his own special way. That's what I'm saying. His own special. I call him the self-cleaning oven. He'll come back. I do self-clean.

[00:33:40] And anyone, it sounds like after he, he'll come back and he'll be like, have you thought about your behavior? Which is his word. I have to translate it into my head going, he's apologizing. Have you thought about why we're here? Yeah. This is special. But no, what I was going to say, your part about, oh, just to say that's a very common thing, right? Like, and you even mentioned it last night at dinner. Like, how do we glean the nuggets from this? How do our last chapter of the book is like, we made lemonade. Like, we took our shit lemons, we made some lemonade.

[00:34:08] And that's a really, I think that's the only way to do it. And at the same time, we can all spiritually bypass ourselves if we don't. Like, yes, you can be like, oh, I learned this. My master teacher. This is my greatest lesson. I'm turning pain into purpose. Can be so good. And you also have to do all this other work to make sure you don't like whitewash it, right? Like, don't just say like, I'm fine now. So how do we, how do you do that without further beating yourself up?

[00:34:37] And I think what you said is really key. It's like looking at that little kid and going, you were a kid. You were being lied to. You did not choose it. And you were, you were surviving. Like, you were doing what you had to do to survive. Like, you didn't even have any f***ing shoes. Let's just remember that. Yeah. No, what you're saying, I mean, it's so true. And it's like, how do we cherry pick and or keep the baby that is, even if we went through hard things, we can all choose where we go from here.

[00:35:03] We are inspired when we see others alchemize literally their pain, their obstacles into something great. We can be the author of our own story going forward, right? And so, like, you want all those things to be true. And ultimately, as long as someone is still physically here, you know, on the planet, that probably is the best way to try to move forward. But how do you do it without whitewashing? Because if you go too fast, your pain will come out sideways. You will develop habits that aren't good.

[00:35:31] Not just substance abuse or as I share about in my book that I went through, but any type of, you know, anxiety. You know, people have so many issues they walk around with that are invisible to the rest of the world, but are literally the, you know, they are the symptoms of this shit coming out sideways. Right. And so, like, so to answer the question, I don't think there's, I don't know the recipe, right? Other than, I do think your kids are a really key trigger for it.

[00:35:55] Because I think when you look at your kids, it's impossible to not just, like, see them with, like, just absolute, just whatever it is, right? It's not just unconditional love. It's, like, this, like, cosmic feeling of, like, oh, like, they are perfect no matter what. And you go, did anybody ever feel that way about me? And you go, like, okay, someone must have. So, even if they didn't, I feel that way about me. And, like, if you use them as, like, the entry point. Yes.

[00:36:20] To, like, where you can break down time, it's a lot easier, I think, to, like, create the space to whatever that is. Cry, grieve, let it come up in therapy. And so, because when I was hearing you answer the question, ask the question, it's hard for me. Because I really do believe in these things. I genuinely believe we are not what happens to us. We are what we choose to become. And it is very important in the message I shared that I wanted to share a message that wasn't just shooting people with blame. It was, like, no, no, no.

[00:36:48] What matters here is how we figure this out and how we have made lemonade, right? But I want to do that without being dismissive, that there is, like, real pain and real hardship and really f***ed up things that I'm not trying to, like, rewrite the past, right? I'm trying to acknowledge it so we can free ourselves from it. That sort of, but that, it always sounds easy when you say. That's some bullshit inspirational phrase. But it's very difficult to actually hit the through line of that on a regular basis when you're a damaged human being.

[00:37:17] So, I guess, yeah, that's, I'm just agreeing with you. Another reason why I like the book. Because I think also the way you guys wrote it in terms of, like, quick segments, I can see this book being used as, like, a reference guide where someone's like, what the hell were Sarah and Nippy saying about that? Let me just find that, like, chapter 13 on, like, gaslighting or whatever. That's exactly what I was going to say. Yeah. So, I think that was also useful, even though I, you know, read it very fast. So, yeah, it's interesting stuff to try to navigate.

[00:37:45] I don't get to talk about this a lot with my wife and my therapist and, you know, a few relationships I have. But I don't have a lot of conversations with fellow cult survivors. So, forgive me if I'm talking too much. No, you're the dream guest. I was telling Sarah. It's like, he can put language to it. I was listening to you 1.5. You sounded like a little, like, Ben Shapiro. So, no one listened to this at 1.5. I was like, wait, is that f***ing Ben Shapiro? Because he talks at 1.5.

[00:38:14] But you put language to it. You've done work that I think also puts different language to it. It's kind of the same thing. So, other people, if they don't relate to how Sarah and I are able to articulate, they can relate to how you articulate it. And we just ask the questions and the dream guest is just let them go. Yeah. Let them do their things. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing that. Of course. I find it very helpful. Oh, us too. I mean, talking to other survivors is, like, really why we are still doing a podcast five years later.

[00:38:41] Like, we did it during COVID when we weren't acting anymore because we'd gone back to acting after NXIVM fell apart. And then that shut down. So, we were already having conversations. Why not, you know, record them? And then we didn't realize how, yeah, cathartic it would be. Like, it's selfishly, like, for us too. You know, like, we always learn from our guests. And sometimes we cry. And sometimes we have guests that, like, aren't great. You know, like, some people are better than others. I would use that language. There are different parts of their journey. Yeah.

[00:39:11] If there's still a major trauma and aren't articulate, it's very hard for them. We've even had a couple where we've been like, we should probably not air that. Not air that. Well, it's not good for them. And kind of what you're saying, if I'm frustrated with this podcast in any sort of way, it's because it's niche. And I think what we're talking about applies to so many things that are going on right now. Yeah. And the word cult kind of gets people to kind of tune out sometimes.

[00:39:38] And I think the abuses of power that go on in cults go on in everyday life. And I'd love, not that I want our podcast to be Joe Rogan, but I'd love the conversations, even if we're not having them, to kind of manifest more into zeitgeist. So this polarities that which you and I were talking about last night, no one's allowed to have a central belief system. Yeah.

[00:39:58] Can at least exasperate some of the, not exasperate, at least get people to become, put their sabers down and recognize, hey, Western culture, if we all come together and aren't polarizing, can be a pretty amazing thing. And we don't have to indulge the polarities, which are a little bit culty. Oh, and the 10% of each side are the cults tearing apart a lot of things where people would like fundamentally value the same thing.

[00:40:23] And sadly, capitalism is indulging their narratives because it's a capitalistic model. Well, because why? Because people buy in fear. Yeah. People protect in fear, which is also a form of, you know, buying. And I think, I mean, I'll just say it. I mean, obviously you touched on the elephant in the room. No one wants to talk politics anymore because the extreme left and the extreme right will eat you alive in the comments. Also. Is afraid. Yeah. But those, so those are the cults of politics, but I'll even address like a bigger, more, maybe not imminent, but an evolving cult under our nose. You have the cult of AI. Yeah.

[00:40:53] We're talking about last night. I want to talk about a world that is literally, talk about a cult that, how many cults ended in mass suicide? What you're talking about is like this commitment to an obsession to achieve whatever it is we think we're creating in this sentient being idea without anybody stopping to ask like, one, like. What's the ROI? Is this a good idea? Two, like, like, how did we get here? Right. And again, I am not a Luddite.

[00:41:19] I am not like a, I live in the world of technology at the intersection of business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It drives innovation. I believe in the future of humanity. I'm an optimist at my core. Me too. But I also think when you have conversations where the leadership of these environments from Altman to Musk to Dario to you name it, all kind of have acknowledged in their own way that we are committed to this winning this race, knowing that whoever gets there first controls the future. And we may not all like that future.

[00:41:50] Right. And you have a bunch of people who are sort of high on their own supply with the obsession that drives whatever, whether it's determinism or something. And I think there's a, again, I don't even know what the solution is. I get asked about this a lot right now, which is shocking for me as like just a chess person who has a company that they want opinions on how chess has navigated this existential crisis that computers became better than humans long ago. And we figured out a way to not just create a healthy ecosystem with guardrails, but a thriving one. Yeah.

[00:42:17] I don't know where the applications can be realistic to capitalism, which is inherently zero sum. Yeah. But it's an important conversation to have because you had so many people in the Heaven's Gate cult who talked to, I mean, there were people who escaped at the last minute and then people who would come out and be like, the amount of people I left behind who were like shaking with fear at night and questioning, why are we doing this? And then it ended. And then he's like, I saw an interview with someone who got out and said like, but then they were there and they were a part of what happened.

[00:42:47] And I know that's a very dark comparison to draw, but I just think there should be conversations about, you know, whether there's a way to invest in technology and put up some guardrails so that we're not worshiping a future overlord who is not the best cult leader. Like maybe we don't want to be in that cult. I don't know. I don't know. I know that's a crazy comparison to me. No, not at all. I don't think so. It's a real time thing. And that was actually one of my questions is since you're famous in the chess world and now you're bringing in this other like side story that most people didn't know about. Yeah. Right.

[00:43:17] The cult story. How has the chess community like embrace that or not embrace it? Are they interested in it? Do they want to know more? Is it weird for them? Do they, what's happened? It's yes on all sides of it. How do I give the most succinct answer to this? What I would say is, and this isn't just self-fulfilling pat on the back. What I will say is this. Everyone who has actually read the book, I have heard not just thank you for sharing your story.

[00:43:45] I had no idea you went through this. And even many who've said, I have people come to me randomly and say, I want to like apologize to you because I have been one of your anonymous haters on Reddit. And I just had no idea who you were or what you were about. And I am like shocked by not just what I've seen of what you've been willing to share. Because a lot of what I share is like, I wasn't going to do this without sharing my own words too. Right.

[00:44:12] And so that's been really great to know that there are people giving it a chance. But there are still so many people who either just like in the chess world think it's a chess book. So they're still not reading it. And I'm like, this is not a chess book. Right. Or they think I'm just doing it to like capitalize on the cheating scandal moment. Or they think I'm like doing it for business. This is not a business book. This is not any. This is not that at all. Right. So I think I'm not saying there may be some who've read the book who don't like it. And, you know, maybe.

[00:44:42] But because I tend to hear from all my haters anyway, I feel like if people did, they would let me know. I think most people who've given it a chance have been, you know, happy that they read the book. And I think a lot of people in the chess world look at what chess.com is and where we've come. And my position as a business leader that they have made just assumptions and filled their own gaps. That it's either just some business pat yourself on the back book or it's a chess book. No matter what I try to tell people, it's not a chess book. So, in fact, we were even publisher was frustrated with how it was being categorized.

[00:45:12] I think on Amazon it's listed as a chess book. Really? And we're like, hey, like we made it. We put a lot of effort into this being a this is a memoir. This is not a chess book. Right. And so someone's going to order a chess book. Exactly. So the book is not that it matters, but the book is doing well in the sense of more people are reading more and more people are reading it. And so as far as I wrote the book for people to read the book. Right. I wrote the book to share my story in whatever way that helps anybody and to connect with people like this.

[00:45:41] I wrote the book because I want to connect with people, share ultimately stories of like growth and love and the things that we want through the lens of being honest about the hardship. Right. And so that that part of why I did the book is happening. And that's the only thing I can actually focus on. But yeah, the chess world has been an interesting one to navigate because many have been slow to even consider that they would get the book. But those who have, it's been a very positive reception. Has Maurice actually read the book? Yes. Yes. And I went to dinner with Maurice.

[00:46:10] And you should have Maurice on your show, by the way. We should. You should. You should. Totally. You should. So context. So I'm going to say this. We'll give context. I'm going to say this because I think he'll be. So you know that Maurice was a Jehovah's Witness for a while. Yeah. Oh, you do know this. Give context to who Maurice is. Yeah. Maurice Ashley is a grandmaster. He's actually the first black grandmaster ever in the history of the world. Originally born in Jamaica, but he's an American black grandmaster.

[00:46:39] He is an ambassador and an influencer. Before that was a term that has inspired generations, including yours, Shirley. And he's just an incredible person. And he's a great example of, I think, like also ahead of his time in so many ways of just knowing that chess always had the potential to be more accessible, faster, more fun, more diverse. It was all the things chess could be when you thought chess was just for like two old white dudes for seven hours smoking in a room by themselves. Right.

[00:47:06] Like Maurice, you know, brought like an edge and a charisma to what he did in the game, not just in terms of his personality on the board as a player. He's very good, but he's a very well-known commentator and broadcaster. And he's cool. And he's just cool. And a V-Week participant. Yeah. But he has a fascinating life story. Yeah. I know he has his own like book and movie deals that he's working on. And I will text him right after this, but I know he's mentioned it briefly before. So I don't think, but I think that gives you an in to have him on the show.

[00:47:35] I mean, he has his own experience coming up as a young man and he was in and out of Jehovah's Witness. And then obviously you had an experience with him being brought in to teach chess at NXIVM. 10 straight years he was there. Yeah. He was there at every Vanguard week, every V-Week. Yeah. And so he told me a lot about that when we had dinner, but I will let Maurice give his own endorsement, but he loved my book. And also a lot of what we connected on was, I mean, we talked for hours over, you know, our own relationship, not just with power, but with God and how we have arrived at what

[00:48:04] we currently believe and feel now. And also just generally, you know, what chess specifically did for each of us in that same lane of like, you know, saving or transforming. So Maurice is great. He's awesome. Great guy. He never did. Maybe we'll ask him this as well if he comes on the show, but like he never took any curriculum, right? Like he just came in to put like did chess stuff for us. Like he met Keith, obviously. Yeah. He met Keith. I don't know about, we talked about, you had told me that he was there. So I like sprung that on him when we were having dinner.

[00:48:33] It was the last time I was in St. Louis and he told me how he got invited. He was like, it was just this group who like was offering to pay me well and come up and teach us. And like, you know, that's what you do. And that's what I did at the time. And so his relationship with it was just like any other chess camp that he would get hired to. And he said it wasn't even until like, like seven, eight, like a few years in that he even started to like notice anything that was odd or they didn't even like push to like

[00:49:03] expand his involvement in the group till he had been coming for a long time. He was just like somebody who was coming to teach us. And I know he met some people in the group that he's maintained relationships with. And so anyway. Even when he was in New York City, he would, there was like a volleyball group that met on Sundays and he'd come down and play volleyball. I think he may have been dating someone. Amy. Yeah. I didn't know if that was public, but now it's out. Way to go. Way to go, Sarah. No, I texted her. I don't think they would mind. Yeah.

[00:49:31] I texted her about the book and she's waiting for the audible. But I just think like when I think back to those 10 years, like even my first year at V-Week, the person running it made it fun. We had Maurice coming. We had like river dancers. We had a hypnotist. Like it was like a retreat. It was a corporate retreat and it was fun. And then the leadership changed and it became more and more laborious and like work oriented and kind of like morose by the end. There's a term in sports. The team always takes on the personality of the coach.

[00:49:59] And the person who was organizing V-Week was Claire. And it kind of took on her disposition. She was one of the Rothmans. Rule bound. Yeah. Like a bad business move. No, it was really bad. It seemed like the way you get high achievers and you bring them in the front door. Recruitment is based on, you know, reaching people where they're at, right? Not asking them to do something they don't want to do. So that seemed like just a bad business. Yeah, that's well put. So many bad business. So many bad business. We could spend a whole podcast talking about all the shitty business things that Keith and Harry did

[00:50:28] to make Next Game not thrive. You can start with branding women. Branding women was also really bad. That should be at the top. That should be one bad move. Like I even said that in the moment. I said, guys, like people already think that we're a cult. Like you think this is going to help? Like where is this in the PR? Like whose idea was this? Just going to go on the brochure? Yeah. Yeah. Let's take a little break from the cultiverse. Here's a word from our sponsors.

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[00:52:26] That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style. Every home. Thank you for listening. Now, let's dive back into the cultiverse. I had a thought just now. Don't do that, sir. Stop it. When you were talking about Maurice, and this might be totally random and maybe a stretch, but I just couldn't, and maybe this is also going on in my dreams last night because I was thinking about all these things we were talking about. The rook and the king and the queen.

[00:52:56] The king and the king. Specifically, do you think your experience in a cult, or maybe Maurice, did that emotional template set you up also for being good at chess? Is there an aspect of maneuvering around manipulation and strategy that made you a better chess player? Does that make any sense? Reading people, I'm interested. I haven't given a lot of thought to that.

[00:53:21] I've been asked questions around, would I have gotten good at chess if I wasn't in the cult? Because you have this multiverse, chicken or the egg type thing, right? The self-worth I derived from being good at the game, then getting kudos from the top becomes a self-fulfilling mission. Maybe I had a talent. But as far as chess itself, I think chess has a lot of pros and cons in terms of the types of critical thinking it helps people develop. Yeah.

[00:53:48] I mean, literally, not just think before you act, but if you can, think multiple moves ahead. And the world is not all about you because the success you're trying to drive at is dependent on what someone else is going to do, both in terms of them trying to stop your plan, but they have their own plan and maybe their plan is going to be faster than your plan. And I could keep going with this. So there's a reason we were on panels. Yeah. We're always asked to give these. So I can give you a million, some a little more like I believe in some a little more

[00:54:17] just like sports cliche. It's chess out there, not checkers. But I have a million metaphors for how chess has developed and can help people develop strategic thinking and be thought leaders in different ways. And they are many of them very real. Like I said, some of them are like, I always joke that the sports cliche, because they say it's a chess game out there, Bob, not to check it or whatever, right? Yeah. But they say that without even knowing that the coaches, you know, whether the coaches play chess, I'm kidding.

[00:54:41] But as far as like the actual framework of chess and doing all of those things, anticipating your opponent's moves and thinking about how to develop your plan in relation to what someone else's plan is. I would say it also has like backfired at times because a lot of chess players develop a pretty deep sense of paranoia. And it's, it wouldn't be extreme or a stereotype to say that a lot of chess players struggle

[00:55:09] to trust people and that it can affect their relationships because part of being a good chess player is anticipating the worst possible outcome all the time. It really is. It sounds surprising. There are two ways I've framed this when I've taught students, which is eventually with kids, you get them to stop playing hope chess. And hope chess is, I'm going there because I hope they don't see my next game. Right. Yeah, yeah. And they get crushed when they start playing good players. Yeah. Hope chess doesn't work.

[00:55:37] Or then the next stage of hope chess is if chess. That's where I am. It's like they say like, this works if they don't see this idea, which isn't totally one move hope chess, but it's similar in terms of the plan is an if. It's if dependency, not concrete. And eventually you get kids struggle with this jump, which is actually fascinating advice for kids because the reason is they associate being concrete with losing options and imagination. They like seeing that the cloud is an elephant and we want that for kids. Right.

[00:56:05] But eventually you want people to develop plans that expect the worst possible outcome for yourself. And it's still a good plan. Or better said, as I've told kids, strong players don't make moves based on ifs and hopes. They make moves expecting the best move from their opponent and it doesn't make a difference for their opponent. They're still going to win. So it takes a while for a kid to see the strength in the force nature of how concrete chess can be.

[00:56:32] That you now really are in control of your own destiny, your own story, because they want to be in the, it's actually funny, they want to be in more of the imaginary world, roll the dice. Yeah. They either get lucky or they didn't. And I think chess is very powerful for helping kids have even a stronger sense of agency that your success is not dependent on getting the right card or a dice roll. So that's my, I could go on rants about why I think chess is the best game for kids in so many ways. And we're not even getting into the fact that chess is the most intimate loss you will ever

[00:57:00] have because it can lead you with a feeling of, I'm just not as smart as that other person. And that's not totally true. But if you're not equipped to deal with that, people run away in a hurry from the game because of the intimacy. I talked about that. My mom's biggest lessons for me was helping me be someone who could face the music in my life. Right? I mean, I have a whole chapter where my mom was like, you're not going to run away. You're going to learn how to face the music. Right? And chess teaches you to face the music or you get the out. Right? You can't stand the heat. Yeah. It's like sports.

[00:57:28] More than any, but in team sports, there's also like bad call by the ref. They didn't pass me the ball. I think ultimate team sports, the right leaders of that environment are all like fully radical ownership. They are extreme owners of everything. And that environment, when you have a bunch of human beings like that on one team, leads to championships. For sure. But individually, when coming up, what is a lot of parent peewee football like? It's like, why doesn't the coach let you get the ball more? Why does the ref always make a bad call there?

[00:57:55] Like there's a lot of victim mentality when you have the option to point. Right. And chess doesn't have that. Right? So I'll get off my soapbox about how good chess is. But to answer your question, I think that, I think there were obviously pros that have turned me into a critical thinker. And maybe the fact that I started teaching young gave me even more of an ability to articulate my critical thoughts. And I've really always valued reaching people kind of where they're at.

[00:58:19] But I also would say that there's a lot of like chess that can off the board, make people like hesitant to take the kind of risk you should take in a relationship to put yourself out there. Right. Or it can make you a little bit like paranoid about someone's intentions. And you're always filling the gap with the worst possible motives. And I will be real that I deal with these types of people all day. Top chess players are some of the most paranoid, accusatory, fill the gap with the worst possible

[00:58:47] motives human beings on the planet, which is just, it's not healthy and good. And even someone, I wrote my book on this premise. It's been one of the things I've had to defend. I had a question from a woman in the audience of the day. It was like, I just don't think you're angry enough. Like you went to, you should be more angry. Like that was her view, right? Yeah. And I was like, well, thank you. First of all, validate your feelings. Yes. And which is a fancy way of saying no, but I don't agree with you. I basically said, yes, thank you. I've been angry.

[00:59:14] And in no way do I think someone should jump past the stages of anger. Don't get me wrong. But that said, I would say that was not the goal of what I shared here. In fact, a big part of what I was trying to do was to say, I actually left it to the reader to decide if Stephen Camp's motives were always clean or not as much as I could. My relationship with my father has been a very hard one this whole lifetime, right? And, but I even, I left the motives to like, here was a person who thought he was trying to do best and left a lot of damage because his wounds were coming out sideways and couldn't deal with it.

[00:59:44] And he thrived in a world where he was maybe getting power, right? But I was, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm attributing as much motive as maybe you would like, because maybe this person in your life, it's easier for you to believe the motives there because maybe that helps you sleep at night. And I don't actually know that's always healthy to like attribute the worst possible motives of people. So that's my soapbox on that. I gave you a much bigger answer than you asked for on this chess question. No, I like, I love all of those tangents. It's a good segue into. Which one? Hans and. Yeah.

[01:00:14] Oh yeah. Speaking of motives and I'm not sure when this episode will air, but you know, last time you were here, your book had just come out and it's been, I think like eight months since we spoke to you. I actually don't know. November 6th. September. Oh, about that. Oh yeah. September, but the episode dropped November 6th. Okay. Got it. So. Look at your memory on that. I just looked at it. Oh, you got it right there? But he is kind of Rain Madden. No, I am. I'm an excellent driver.

[01:00:40] You could ask him like where any college quarterback went to school and he knows. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Another episode. Individual skill sets that I do not have. Anyway. Also. So what's happening for you right now is the book's out and this documentary has just come out. Yeah. So how has that been for you? And like, what's the feedback been like? Is it, are you happy with it? You, is it, tell us everything. For anyone who's watching this, no matter when this comes out, the documentary is the Netflix untold documentary called Chessmates.

[01:01:10] It was around, we can probably even do like the little edit of show the show, whatever we're allowed to use with fair use, a little preview of the episode right now on the screen. So you should watch Chessmates, I guess. I think I want you to watch it. Watch it. I'll try to watch it. I've had like very, a lot of mixed feelings about it. And there's been a lot of mixed reactions on the one hand. I don't think the documentary did justice to my full side. Now, again, I knew that coming in, we agreed to do this. We had no editorial control.

[01:01:39] Anyone who reads my book will get a much fuller view of my perspective in the relationship with Magnus and Henrik Carlsen, the greatest player of all time and his father. What led to the scandal as well as my longer history with Hans Niemann than a lot of people know. And so if I was to be specific on the three buckets that I don't feel were justice in the end where the episode rapid fires what people were dealing with during this explosive scandal, they purposely, especially because I know we did three days of recording with them and I know what we said to them.

[01:02:07] And I understand this too, that this could have been done without motive by Netflix. Speaking of not wanting to attribute motive, it's complicated to give a large audience the nuanced things deserves because you lose them. It's confusing. So I'm actually going to, I'm going to complain, but also hold space that I'm not giving motives. See, I'm doing my own work. Right. So I could, two things can be true, which is they did not tell the full truth. That doesn't mean they were motivated or not because it's complicated to show the whole thing, which is they edited it in a way that implies that, you know, Magnus was gaslit by chess.com that we somehow promoted the scandal.

[01:02:37] When in reality, my book starts with the very direct conversation where I told them not to do this, regardless of the evidence or Hans's history as a cheater online, that this was a bad idea. And that many of those conversations, while Magnus says in the episode, something like, you know, Danny says a lot of bullshit. Danny talks a lot, whatever Magnus says. So this is water under the bridge at this point with Magnus. It's been a couple of years since they've filmed with Netflix. So we're, we're good on this and I can, so I can really share my perspective on this,

[01:03:07] that the way they edited the cut to make it look like Magnus felt like he was gaslit and or that we kickstarted the scandal. That was just like, not, that was not fair at all. And so not only did I tell them I didn't agree with what was about to happen, regardless of Hans's history, but to the point of having conversations where Magnus in the episode says Danny talks a lot and bullshit. But the truth is like, I would argue there was a lot of nuance in this situation the whole time. It's like a version of, Hey, like, do you think there's cheating? Well, there has been cheating.

[01:03:37] And like, there is some suspicions. We're going to have to keep looking into this, which was said and, or it, we had a lot of discussions about it, but it wasn't like we were encouraging the scandal. And I feel like the way that was edited was not fair. The other thing that really didn't come across well was just the level of compassion that we had for Hans as, as human beings, as parents. Like we were like, I even said on camera, which they cut, I'm like, look, like there was

[01:04:06] no evidence he was cheating over the board. But even if there was evidence, like he didn't deserve the anal beads scandal. Like what happened for this kid to be forever associated as the person who used the beads? Because frankly, mainstream media just didn't give a shit about whether the story had any validity. It was one of those stories that was just too good to check, too good to fact check. Right. Yeah. And it, and I guess the way it framed in the end, as if not just like we were a part of it, but more positive on that was just not fair.

[01:04:34] And that was not how we ever felt at all. And like, yes, they did ask us about whether there was a, whether there was a growth in membership because of what was happening. And we were honest that all scandals tend to lead to growth for chess.com, whether we like it or not. But it really lacked like the nuance and the compassion. And we even like, I mean, we like cried about how intense it was and how bad we felt for Hans. Like, so that didn't come through. Right. And then the last thing that I really didn't like is it goes as close as it can to implying

[01:05:04] somehow that Hans like got a bunch of money and like the agreement to move on. Like ultimately we agreed to move on and Hans came back to chess.com, but we're not allowed to talk about what it was when this lawsuit ended. So I don't know what Hans is saying when the camera's not on to, to have them imply this. But the reality is like, that's just not, that's just not true. In fact, the case, like you wouldn't even know this from the episode, the case was dismissed in federal court with prejudice, which means he can't even, he couldn't even bring the

[01:05:33] case back to federal court if he wanted to. Like every aspect of his conspiracy claims and his defamation were completely dismissed in court. And so that's not there at all. Instead, they implied that he like got rich. And so that's just, that was a completely misrepresentation of what happened at the end. Like that lawsuit was completely destroyed. And then yes, after it was completely destroyed, there were conversations about what does it take for everybody to take their marbles to go home.

[01:06:01] That did lead to an agreement for all of us to start playing nice again. So we don't even like to use the term settlement. Like that's like, that's not even a fair way that we have represented. This was a, from our perspective, like you got your ass kicked in court. There were still a lot of crying and threats going on. We wanted to move on and we agreed to take our marbles and go home. No one is allowed to talk about the specifics. You see how careful I'm being in this.

[01:06:29] And so either if, if Han said things that he's not allowed to say when the cameras were rolling and that influenced their editorial, or if they made a choice to like imply somehow that he won, which is how it came across. Right. That was just not fair. And so those three things would be my three things that I'm like, other than that, I kind of go, yeah, everyone was represented fairly. Right. Those are great caveats. And I appreciate your inclination to not apply motive. Yeah.

[01:06:57] But if there was a motive here, Netflix. Yeah. I'm going to say it. So you don't say it because I wasn't involved is just the motive to create drama. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. You know, clicks, you know, exactly. Showing the whole truth in a nuanced way is not gives people enough clarity to go. All right. Well, I understand everything now. I'm not going to talk about it. They want everyone leaving. Untold's brand thrives on water cooler talk because they relied that they frame it as confusing

[01:07:27] as possible so that people show up at the water cooler the next day. Making shit up. Exactly. Talking about it. Exactly. And two people could have seen the same thing. And one person says, I think Hans is a lying cheater. I think the chess.com guys are total douchebags. That's what they want. Right. They want people to see the same thing and have different conclusions.

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