Host Mode: Sarah & Nippy Answer Your Burning Questions

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:14] North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it.

[00:01:04] I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:06] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy.

[00:01:10] Sarah and I met, fell in love, in a quote, self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult cult nexium. Heard of it?

[00:01:18] We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down.

[00:01:21] Our journey as nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail in a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] New York Times, babe.

[00:01:30] Right.

[00:01:31] Have you heard of it?

[00:01:32] Each week on A Little Bit Culty we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers, plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissist.

[00:01:49] There's always something to learn about the cultiverse.

[00:01:52] Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode.

[00:01:56] Find us on Instagram and at ALittleBitCulty.com.

[00:02:03] Here we are.

[00:02:17] Ask me anything, Sarah.

[00:02:18] Well, this has been a long time coming.

[00:02:20] We've actually been getting questions from the audience over email and then we posted on Instagram and curated an incredible list.

[00:02:27] Unfortunately, we're not going to get to all of them, but here are the answers to some of our favorites.

[00:02:31] Unless there's anything else you want to cover first.

[00:02:33] You look like you're up to something.

[00:02:34] I don't know.

[00:02:35] I'm looking at you and like there's something up your sleeve like you're some surprise.

[00:02:40] I just didn't let you play the whole thing.

[00:02:42] So let's just go on there and let her rip.

[00:02:44] I could not plan.

[00:02:46] I could not plan.

[00:02:47] I mean, it's hard, but I can not plan.

[00:02:50] So before the questions, just an announcement.

[00:02:53] Another, I feel like when I say that I have like a little mini flashback being in front of the class back in the cult days where I've got a clipboard and I'm like covering all the, you know, like next Saturday.

[00:03:04] I was.

[00:03:05] I was the cruise director.

[00:03:06] Like, so don't forget Friday.

[00:03:08] We have a potluck at the beach followed by volleyball, which I never played, but people played and we'd have like, you know, vegetarian potluck and then a big Saturday class at those and next Sunday.

[00:03:17] Don't forget.

[00:03:18] Nancy's in town and we're going to be doing a coach.

[00:03:20] That's what my dad says.

[00:03:22] Just keep her peppy.

[00:03:23] I was so peppy.

[00:03:25] I was so peppy.

[00:03:26] Anyway, I'm going to turn that pepiness into more future awesome episodes.

[00:03:30] So again, so appreciate the list of suggestions.

[00:03:33] Some of the things we wanted to tell you that we have in the works for sure is you don't have to keep suggesting these ones are Hillsong, Obs landmark.

[00:03:41] No doubt.

[00:03:42] Still still working on that, but it's coming.

[00:03:44] Don't worry.

[00:03:45] One taste.

[00:03:46] If you haven't heard about that, look it up.

[00:03:47] It's crazy town and some different shamanic retreat centers and some treat centers where people are allegedly using various psychedelics for healing QAnon playboy mansion.

[00:03:59] The Cult of Wokeness.

[00:04:01] You can say that we are hoping that Evan Rachel Wood will come on our show and in touch with her and working on that.

[00:04:08] So again, stay tuned.

[00:04:09] An Eckhart.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:11] So if somebody wrote like, why would you interview Eckhart?

[00:04:12] That's a cult too.

[00:04:13] And what's crazy is that we've been in talks about what makes toxic spirituality and similarly to Cameron Harrell talking about corporate culture.

[00:04:22] Eckhart will be in this in a similar position.

[00:04:25] You know, how does he know there's not toxicity in his organization and some cult experts would warn me against such things.

[00:04:32] But I think it's an interesting conversation.

[00:04:34] No, he's an interesting guy, obviously.

[00:04:35] Yeah.

[00:04:36] We had some good conversations with him.

[00:04:37] He's very open and has been actually quite helpful in my healing in a not-culti way, believe it or not.

[00:04:43] Couple lunches isn't very culty.

[00:04:45] No, I didn't get any sashes or pay for anything.

[00:04:48] So Nippy from Redpoint 12.

[00:04:49] Thank you so much for your great podcast.

[00:04:51] I've been watching the Vow.

[00:04:52] Keith comes off as so slimy and repulsive, but he had to have been charismatic to pull it off.

[00:04:56] Was he both?

[00:04:57] Did anyone out and out tell him he was a creep?

[00:04:59] I think eventually people out and out told them he was a creep.

[00:05:02] You know, I'll answer it this way.

[00:05:03] You have to understand Keith was able to get to a lot of influential people.

[00:05:08] Now, a lot of people will go, oh, I never would have fallen for that, blah, blah.

[00:05:11] And you're probably right and you're not our audience.

[00:05:13] But to the people that look at that and see the slimy like he was different with different people and he was effective.

[00:05:19] He was able to get to the dilemma.

[00:05:21] He was able to get to CEOs and have them come do our training.

[00:05:24] So he was doing a lot of things right.

[00:05:26] And I think, you know, when you watch the Vow, they're not going to show that past a certain point, right, Sarah?

[00:05:31] Like they showed how we got in.

[00:05:33] It's hard also to put yourself in a situation where you take dozens of hours of training where somebody is edified as to being, you know, the smartest, one of the smartest people in the world and a problem solver and the creator of this amazing quote technology.

[00:05:46] If everyone around you and all the leadership that you already admire and already put on a pedestal are saying things about them.

[00:05:51] If you're not a, you know, a skeptic and you don't have the tools for the red flags, you're going to believe them because why would people lie about such things?

[00:05:58] I mean, we know now why, but put yourself back in that position by the time you meet him.

[00:06:02] You're already, at least for me, I was already really respected him.

[00:06:05] I wasn't looking at him as a, you know.

[00:06:07] Your skepticism had been turned off a little bit.

[00:06:09] My skepticism has been turned off.

[00:06:11] Also, I respected what he had built, but I wasn't like, oh, is he attractive or not attractive?

[00:06:16] I wasn't seeing him through that filter.

[00:06:18] I think when you know what he did and you watch him now, he absolutely looks slimy.

[00:06:23] But when you're there and you assume a project good intent, then he was, you know, he came across lots of different ways to different people.

[00:06:32] Like Nipi said, warm, concerned about your welfare or your success, you know, inquisitive, curious.

[00:06:38] He came across a lot of different ways, not just slimy.

[00:06:42] Well, remember when we were watching Holy Hell the other day?

[00:06:44] I was watching at Hime's behavior.

[00:06:47] Yeah, the leader's behavior.

[00:06:48] I touched you on the back, mimicked him to you.

[00:06:50] So those are all the tactics that I think he used to transcend his slimy and repulsiveness, right?

[00:06:57] Yeah.

[00:06:58] I mean, all these leaders do a lot of eye gazing.

[00:07:00] And as we talk about with Will Allen and Holy Hell, but yeah, watch Holy Hell and you'll see some similarities between that leader and Keith.

[00:07:07] In terms of the eye gazing and the connecting with the client was for lack of the better word victim.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] Kim Vanderhoek says, is there any information that would have prevented you from joining Nexium if you'd discovered it?

[00:07:18] Like if we knew he was having sex with everybody, would you have joined?

[00:07:20] Oh, absolutely not.

[00:07:21] Yeah.

[00:07:22] If you knew that it was a front for his personal harem, would you have joined?

[00:07:27] Yeah, who Keith really was.

[00:07:29] Yeah.

[00:07:30] And any of the things we know now I think would have stopped us in our tracks.

[00:07:33] No name given.

[00:07:34] So this is anonymous person.

[00:07:36] Do you feel like from start to finish, you were given false information on ESP or Nexium and what they had to offer?

[00:07:42] Or do you think that the program itself changed at a certain point to become corrupt?

[00:07:46] Like was it created with good intention and turned dark?

[00:07:49] Well, we've since learned that Keith knew what he was doing from the beginning.

[00:07:53] I think that some of the people around him created it with good intention, but I think that he always knew he was going to create something that would draw people in that provided value and created dependency.

[00:08:04] And that's what the personal development side of it was.

[00:08:06] Executive success programs.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:08] It's not like some of the other things we've had on our show where it's like the good person whose ego got to them.

[00:08:12] Right.

[00:08:13] I wouldn't add much to that.

[00:08:14] I just think generally speaking, when people are going to do dark, they're going to have to attract people of light and they did it with the curriculum.

[00:08:19] So I think this is what his MO was the entire time.

[00:08:22] And good segue to the next one.

[00:08:23] No name on this one.

[00:08:24] Do you believe Nancy's relationship with us and Mark was genuine?

[00:08:27] Or do you feel like her and Keith had a plan for you or a purpose that you were supposed to play from the beginning?

[00:08:31] I mean, Nancy fell into the job of the concierge of ESP a little bit.

[00:08:38] Right?

[00:08:39] You went through her problem.

[00:08:40] She tried to take on the mom role it seemed like.

[00:08:42] I think there's part of that that was legitimate that felt authentic, but it was also she always saw everybody as like what can you do to serve the company?

[00:08:49] Yes.

[00:08:50] And she saw especially Mark and I as like recruiters and bringing Hollywood to them and using us as that like, you know, it's access to VIPs.

[00:08:58] Well, her EMS always came down to what was best for the company in the name of your growth.

[00:09:03] Yeah.

[00:09:04] 100%.

[00:09:05] This is from Corb is my homeboy.

[00:09:07] I think this is Mark Corbishly, a friend of mine.

[00:09:09] Do you ever get tired of talking about your experience or talking about abusive relationships and experiences?

[00:09:14] It's such a heavy topic.

[00:09:16] Certainly I do.

[00:09:17] In fact, I didn't really realize how heavy and how stressful it was till I went to Hawaii with you and the fam and didn't do anything in this space except for review one episode for the pod.

[00:09:27] And it was a load off.

[00:09:29] And I think that like, it's really tricky and actually goes right to the next question of from Wanderlust is how have you kept yourself being traumatized while interviewing others who discuss their own traumatic experience?

[00:09:40] Those questions kind of go hand in hand.

[00:09:42] And that's a key thing I think for well, maybe more so for me because I have a different kind of trauma than you is I've failed at that actually.

[00:09:49] Like I've left certain interviews and been really triggered isn't even necessarily the right word.

[00:09:54] I'm upset.

[00:09:55] I'm sad.

[00:09:56] I'm a bit on edge, like a bit stressed.

[00:09:59] And I really thanks for reminding me of this always like we have to go for a walk and we have to shake it off and like, you know, go for a walk in the woods, whatever, whatever it takes to like transition out of that very dark space.

[00:10:11] Doing something physical is important to do, I think right after.

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:15] She did a pretty good job of.

[00:10:16] Thank you.

[00:10:17] Also, we kind of have to for the kids like it's not cool to bring that into the family life into the weekend.

[00:10:21] And we also have really good boundaries about that, like really trying to keep weekends family focused and oriented.

[00:10:26] And we try to stay off our phones.

[00:10:28] I get re traumatized when I see I would say retraumatized per se, but I find I'm most sensitive to I see the way people being treated for having different belief systems on either side when people just abandon civil discourse and start attacking character.

[00:10:41] I have a real aversion when I see that bad juju as you like to say.

[00:10:45] And also leads to this question from Ali Brooke five. What are some grounding techniques or boundaries you've had to establish when it comes to talking about your trauma and talking to other people in their trauma?

[00:10:54] I hear some of these stories in your podcast and it breaks my heart for these people and I have to take a mental break for a week or two because it drains me bento box in particular.

[00:11:01] I think we've had that also, which is why we've been trying to balance the heavier trauma slash abuse stories with more lighter or less dark content for us and for you as our listeners.

[00:11:13] Because it is really intense in terms of boundaries. Like, you know, I'm not a therapist nippies on a therapist. Sometimes they get so caught up.

[00:11:20] This even happened in next year where somebody was be sharing something upsetting, you know, they cry and I might cry with them.

[00:11:25] Like that's not what a therapist normally does.

[00:11:28] Like they try to be there and be empathetic but not emotionally go on that same journey.

[00:11:32] So that's something I struggle with as you may have noticed in the episodes that I get a little emotional.

[00:11:39] Well, you announce it every time.

[00:11:41] Well, I was teasing her about it the other day.

[00:11:44] Like be sure to announce that you're emotional in this podcast.

[00:11:47] It's great. No, it's the soul.

[00:11:50] It's the soul. I'm a little emotional.

[00:11:52] But I also feel like there's an element of that that's cathartic for me.

[00:11:56] It just because I'm emotional isn't bad.

[00:11:58] Like I have felt a lot of healing for my own journey as I relate to other people going through similar things

[00:12:05] and feeling less alone and feeling meaning in being able to create content about this for people that helps other people.

[00:12:11] That I don't know that really, you know, I get emotional about that too.

[00:12:13] And that's very positive.

[00:12:14] Yeah.

[00:12:15] What? I'm not crying.

[00:12:16] No, I'm not.

[00:12:17] I'm not crying.

[00:12:18] I'm not gonna cry.

[00:12:19] I like that about you.

[00:12:20] I mean, I think it's an admirable characteristic.

[00:12:22] No, thanks.

[00:12:23] I don't necessarily use grounding techniques but in terms of boundaries.

[00:12:26] You do grounding.

[00:12:27] I think working out is your grounding.

[00:12:29] Yeah, that is my, yeah.

[00:12:30] Mine's yoga, literally going and lying on the ground.

[00:12:34] I've talked about this many times.

[00:12:35] Basketball.

[00:12:36] Epsom salt bath.

[00:12:37] If he plays basketball, I eat grounding foods.

[00:12:39] I have this like hot turmeric drink that I drink at night that helps me sleep.

[00:12:43] Not gonna say the name because I want them to be a sponsor working on it.

[00:12:46] This is from Sophia.

[00:12:48] Do you ever think you will communicate, have a relationship with Lauren again?

[00:12:52] I personally hope so.

[00:12:53] I like to have that closure.

[00:12:55] I want to give her a hug.

[00:12:56] A relationship.

[00:12:57] I don't know if we'll have a relationship.

[00:12:58] We'll see.

[00:12:59] Time will tell.

[00:13:00] Yeah, I don't think we're going to be sitting around the campfire sipping cocoa, reminiscing

[00:13:03] about the time.

[00:13:04] Goodbye, yeah.

[00:13:05] What are your thoughts on the whole life coaching phenomenon now?

[00:13:07] Are there good life coaches?

[00:13:08] If so, do they have certain attributes or certifications?

[00:13:11] I'm personally kind of allergic to it.

[00:13:14] Me too.

[00:13:15] I think if you're gonna be spending money, you should spend money on a trained therapist.

[00:13:18] A lot of life coaches haven't done a lot of training.

[00:13:21] Not saying there aren't good ones out there.

[00:13:23] I'm sure they're fabulous life coaches.

[00:13:26] Just generally for me, just the terminology used by life coaches is very parallel.

[00:13:31] Well, exactly the same as the terminology in Nexium.

[00:13:34] Anything from goals and success and accountability and responsibility.

[00:13:38] All that stuff is like, I just don't like it.

[00:13:41] Doesn't mean it's not good.

[00:13:43] I think it's like a lot of these things.

[00:13:44] You have to do your research, see if there's any controversy around somebody I would

[00:13:49] say that there's probably some merit to it and not everything is a smear campaign

[00:13:54] to take down the leader.

[00:13:56] That's a red flag also.

[00:13:58] I don't know.

[00:13:59] I think that there probably is actual attributions and creditations that are legitimate.

[00:14:03] I just don't know where they are.

[00:14:04] Maybe we'll do an episode on life coaching.

[00:14:06] Yeah, good idea.

[00:14:07] So, Nip, Whitney Peterson says out of all your guests, which topic or group surprised you the most in what you learned?

[00:14:13] Well, I have a couple that stand out.

[00:14:15] I love Montel's book, Coltisch.

[00:14:17] The one I find myself thinking about here and there is the girl, Samantha, who went down to the, was it the white supremacist one?

[00:14:26] And only because she was really smart, is really smart.

[00:14:30] And the conversations we had with her outside of the podcast and stuff to me and what I learned from her episode,

[00:14:36] because she was really brave, she was vulnerable.

[00:14:39] And from my perspective, took pretty good responsibility is the cult of the algorithm and how it really just happened going on watching YouTube channels.

[00:14:47] And it happened to someone who was pretty smart.

[00:14:49] That was one of our earlier episodes, like our third or fourth or something like that.

[00:14:53] And that's when I recognized how deep this stuff can go and how easy it can happen.

[00:14:58] Like from your computer, like from AI really, is what made me aware of.

[00:15:02] So that one to me, I still just kind of think about a lot.

[00:15:05] And there's a lot of others that deepen our understanding of it as well.

[00:15:08] But that one to me, this can happen to anyone like with a computer.

[00:15:12] That was my first awareness of that.

[00:15:14] I think generally the thing that surprises me the most, like with every episode is just how the template never changes.

[00:15:21] Like every episode, I'm like, wow, it's the exact same thing every time.

[00:15:24] Almost to the point where I'm worried that the episodes will become redundant because it's like, okay, there's the love bombing and there's the isolating you from society.

[00:15:32] And there's the criticizing you so that you feel then dependent on the leader to fill the void.

[00:15:37] Like all the things over and over and over again.

[00:15:39] Oh, you're being shunned for leaving.

[00:15:41] Oh, there's litigation.

[00:15:42] You can't trust the media.

[00:15:43] Yeah, the prepackaged gaslighting.

[00:15:45] Yeah, the prepackaged gaslighting.

[00:15:46] Okay, you see it so clearly now.

[00:15:48] Recently, the thing that surprised me the most is when Gina Wilson was still able to have what appears to be,

[00:15:53] I'm no expert but a healthy faith relationship even after what happened to her.

[00:15:58] I feel like so many of our survivors are so skeptical and just so unwilling to have any kind of connection to the thing that they left.

[00:16:06] Test T. Coles wants to know your pin number to your PayPal account.

[00:16:10] Test T. Coles?

[00:16:12] Oh, is that a joke by Jess?

[00:16:16] Look at that.

[00:16:17] She also wrote Leaky Bum, who is your least favorite member of your production team?

[00:16:22] Without a doubt, Jess Tardy.

[00:16:24] Thank you, Leaky Bum.

[00:16:25] Thanks, Leaky Bum for weighing in.

[00:16:28] Super bravos.

[00:16:29] Super bravos.

[00:16:30] We kind of touched on this already.

[00:16:31] Do you feel you're permanently jaded by your experience?

[00:16:34] Like you'll always view interactions through the lens of mistrust for possible bullshit and bad intentions?

[00:16:38] Yeah, a little bit.

[00:16:41] A little bit.

[00:16:42] Yep, it's really hard to know what's what.

[00:16:44] Yeah, I just kind of go, hmm, when someone makes a bold assertion about themselves,

[00:16:49] I'm kind of like, hmm, probably not.

[00:16:53] Probably not.

[00:16:54] Back to the top here.

[00:16:55] So Meredith Turner asks, I'm rewatching the VOW and noticing so many wild claims by Keith Reneary

[00:17:00] that are never challenged or questioned.

[00:17:02] Like when he meets Allison Mack for the first time and claims that art is pointless,

[00:17:05] what tactics did he use to create an environment for room without questioning?

[00:17:09] Was it subtle and or direct messaging from other members before you met him

[00:17:12] that you never questioned him?

[00:17:13] Or was it an unspoken understanding?

[00:17:15] Was everything he said so word-sality that coming up with a question was impossible?

[00:17:19] Is there a way to recognize when these tactics are being used in the moment?

[00:17:22] I have thoughts.

[00:17:23] You go first.

[00:17:24] So people did question and the tactics that were used,

[00:17:27] I think we've covered a lot of them.

[00:17:29] Gaslighting is a big one, making it your misunderstanding of the problem

[00:17:33] rather than what it is that you're seeing.

[00:17:35] To interject, Nipi, when you say when people questioned,

[00:17:38] nobody ever stood up and was like, what the fuck?

[00:17:40] This is bullshit.

[00:17:41] That went on not in front of him.

[00:17:43] People were like, what the fuck with the sashes?

[00:17:45] What the fuck?

[00:17:46] This is when I did it my first time.

[00:17:48] People wanted to get rid of the sashes and the rules and rituals for the five day.

[00:17:52] People are like, it's too much for people.

[00:17:54] Maybe if they come to the second, sixth day and they did that for a while.

[00:17:57] Yeah, but once we were in and once we were bought in and there was like a forum

[00:18:00] where the upper ranks, if he did a forum,

[00:18:02] there'd always be a microphone at the end to ask questions.

[00:18:04] People would come up and it would be more like, you know,

[00:18:06] I see this, but I'm also wondering like that wasn't totally my experience.

[00:18:10] And then he'd come back with some sort of like basically underhanded thing

[00:18:14] about the nature of why they were asking that in the first place

[00:18:17] and how that related to their life issue.

[00:18:19] Sometimes people would even get in trouble for asking something of Keith.

[00:18:22] The rule was if you can find that information out elsewhere,

[00:18:25] don't ask Keith. It's a waste of his time.

[00:18:27] First of all, you only ask him things that only he can answer.

[00:18:30] Yeah.

[00:18:31] Right? So that was one thing.

[00:18:32] Well, it was also a way of controlling the questioning.

[00:18:35] Yeah.

[00:18:36] So it had to be in a way really personal and meaningful.

[00:18:38] You know, I think you even see this in the vow

[00:18:40] and we're going to rewatch it soon.

[00:18:42] Like, I don't even remember this because asking questions was very traumatic,

[00:18:45] but I did stand up and say something that didn't feel right.

[00:18:47] And I got humiliated if I recall.

[00:18:49] Like, I mean, that was sort of how like, even if I asked a question,

[00:18:52] then I smiled, especially if it was in the GENES program,

[00:18:54] he would like smile back at me and indicate that I'm being flirtatious.

[00:18:57] Right? And then I'm embarrassed.

[00:18:59] And then I don't ask a question for another decade.

[00:19:01] So he's shaming you.

[00:19:02] It's cancel culture.

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:04] It's his version of cancel culture.

[00:19:05] Yeah.

[00:19:06] And then other people see that and go, okay.

[00:19:07] Why would I want to put myself through that?

[00:19:09] You're basically being under a microscope in front of him

[00:19:12] and the leadership exposing your deepest vulnerabilities.

[00:19:15] Because if I ask anything like about anything about parenting

[00:19:18] or my relationship or the meaning of life,

[00:19:20] whatever I ask will expose my issue.

[00:19:22] So people learn to like, I mean,

[00:19:24] I probably asked three or four questions my whole time there in public.

[00:19:27] I mean, like standing up in front of that with the mic

[00:19:29] and asking a question to Keith.

[00:19:31] But generally, if you had a question more of a concern,

[00:19:34] you were always instructed to never go to your down line

[00:19:37] or to people that you coach.

[00:19:38] You know, you know,

[00:19:39] you're always instructed to go up.

[00:19:41] So that means somebody of higher authority in the ranking system.

[00:19:44] And I would often go to Mark or to Barb,

[00:19:47] Jesky, Barboucher in the early years,

[00:19:49] and they would either EM me

[00:19:52] or they would have me go back and journal on it.

[00:19:55] Like it was never, thanks for that feedback.

[00:19:57] Like let's incorporate it.

[00:19:58] To answer the specific question,

[00:20:00] was it unspoken understanding?

[00:20:01] There was for sure an unspoken understanding,

[00:20:03] but only when you went to Albany,

[00:20:05] there wasn't unspoken understandings

[00:20:07] outside of there.

[00:20:08] The closer you got,

[00:20:09] the more of the unspoken understandings I felt them more.

[00:20:12] Is there a way to recognize?

[00:20:14] Yeah, if you can't question the person,

[00:20:16] that's the person you need to be afraid of.

[00:20:18] There's anything you can't question under good faith

[00:20:20] and have a civil discourse and there's repercussions for it.

[00:20:23] That's probably the person that's abusing power.

[00:20:26] In any hierarchy in any domain, that's the case.

[00:20:28] You can't come ask me a question.

[00:20:30] I feel like you're going to get in trouble.

[00:20:32] So yes, to answer Meredith's question,

[00:20:34] it was both subtle and direct about the way

[00:20:37] that you question or question anything.

[00:20:39] I remember there was a higher ranking woman

[00:20:41] from the Pacific Northwest who asked something publicly

[00:20:44] in front of other coaches,

[00:20:45] and she got like in trouble for that.

[00:20:48] And she had to, actually many people,

[00:20:49] if they did something like that,

[00:20:50] they would have to fill out a breach form

[00:20:52] about how what they did affected the group,

[00:20:54] affected themselves, affected all of humanity.

[00:20:57] How often did that go on, Sarah?

[00:20:59] The breach forms for that.

[00:21:00] I would say that happened a lot.

[00:21:01] Really?

[00:21:02] I would say this.

[00:21:03] I was a green sash Nipi, so I saw that.

[00:21:06] Congratulations.

[00:21:07] I was a higher rank than Nipi.

[00:21:09] We don't like to talk about that.

[00:21:10] No, just saying that I think that happened a fair bit

[00:21:12] that people had to fill out a breach form.

[00:21:14] I just don't remember it.

[00:21:15] I knew it existed and I remember looking at it.

[00:21:17] Well, you didn't do it.

[00:21:18] I knew it existed.

[00:21:19] I remember looking at it and going,

[00:21:20] is this a fucking joke?

[00:21:22] Yeah, like I remember on the green meeting,

[00:21:23] if you were late for the green meeting,

[00:21:25] you'd have to fill out a breach form.

[00:21:27] So if you were late,

[00:21:28] you had to fill out what's called a mindful reschedule.

[00:21:31] Is this a mindful reschedule?

[00:21:32] Why are we not?

[00:21:33] Okay, so somebody wrote,

[00:21:34] I'm not gonna say her name.

[00:21:35] No, I failed to be mindful and enter my coach points.

[00:21:38] If this is not mindful,

[00:21:39] is it a breach and what are the effects?

[00:21:41] So she wrote,

[00:21:42] breaches are far reaching.

[00:21:43] I continue to live my life reactively

[00:21:44] and not put into place the tools and habits

[00:21:46] I know are there to avoid failing

[00:21:48] when there doesn't need to be a failure.

[00:21:49] It's a decision of laziness and comfort

[00:21:51] over change and productivity.

[00:21:52] By making the decision to do this

[00:21:54] and having failures that aren't real failures

[00:21:56] of missing data but a failure

[00:21:57] in choosing to push and be more successful,

[00:21:59] I limit my own belief in myself,

[00:22:01] what I'm capable of achieving,

[00:22:02] the tools of ESP

[00:22:03] and what they're capable of achieving

[00:22:04] and hold the team and center back

[00:22:06] dealing with small, piddly things

[00:22:08] rather than things that truly need

[00:22:09] our time, effort and resources.

[00:22:11] Jesus.

[00:22:12] That's what the person wrote

[00:22:13] about not entering their coach points.

[00:22:15] How did you communicate this failure?

[00:22:17] What steps did you take?

[00:22:18] No, I didn't.

[00:22:19] So I'm sending the breach form now.

[00:22:21] How did they respond to be determined?

[00:22:23] This is the kind of thing

[00:22:24] you had to fill out

[00:22:25] if in this case you were late.

[00:22:27] Now I tried to realize that I could submit them

[00:22:29] and no one was reading them.

[00:22:31] So I would just copy and paste

[00:22:33] from Emiliano's,

[00:22:34] who was always way more articulate

[00:22:36] about it than me.

[00:22:37] So I copy and paste about how my breach affected humanity

[00:22:39] if I was two minutes late for the meeting.

[00:22:40] So this is not a question,

[00:22:42] but I have heard people ask this in the past

[00:22:44] is like, how are Nippy and I different?

[00:22:45] Nippy wouldn't fill out the form at all.

[00:22:47] He'd be like, cut my pay

[00:22:48] because I was dependent on the company

[00:22:50] and I wanted to be perceived as a good girl.

[00:22:52] I would do the things,

[00:22:53] but like not really.

[00:22:54] So I submitted my breach forms

[00:22:56] but it was just copy and pasted from Emiliano

[00:22:58] and regurgitated every time.

[00:23:00] Because nobody read them.

[00:23:01] Nobody even checked if you entered your coach points,

[00:23:03] but he had us doing all of these things

[00:23:05] so time consuming.

[00:23:06] Anyway, that was a great question.

[00:23:08] Thank you, Meredith.

[00:23:10] We tell our stories.

[00:23:39] We change the world.

[00:23:40] A little bit culty is proud to support

[00:23:42] the hashtag I got out project,

[00:23:44] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse

[00:23:47] to share their stories online

[00:23:48] as a catalyst for education,

[00:23:50] prevention and healing.

[00:23:52] Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement

[00:23:54] and find resources at I got out.org.

[00:23:58] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:24:05] What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:24:08] Maybe you never skip leg day

[00:24:10] or never miss yoga.

[00:24:11] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:24:13] That's my personal

[00:24:14] and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:24:16] Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.

[00:24:18] Like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:24:20] and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:24:21] as I can outside of nature.

[00:24:23] Hashtag, cold pools, hashtag, crushing it.

[00:24:26] Nature is a non-negotiable.

[00:24:27] Not enough time in the fresh air

[00:24:28] and the trees around me

[00:24:29] and I start to feel not great,

[00:24:31] not myself, not grounded.

[00:24:32] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:24:34] I try to not miss it

[00:24:35] and I know I'm just going to feel so much better

[00:24:37] all around if I make it a priority.

[00:24:39] I get so much out of it.

[00:24:41] It helps me put my worries and anxieties

[00:24:42] in their rightful place

[00:24:43] and helps me clear my mind

[00:24:44] so I can focus on what I really need

[00:24:46] and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:24:48] Like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:24:49] just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:24:51] You know what I mean?

[00:24:52] Thanks, therapy.

[00:24:53] Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:24:54] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,

[00:24:56] give BetterHelp a try.

[00:24:57] It's entirely online, designed to be convenient,

[00:24:59] flexible and suited to your schedule.

[00:25:01] Just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:25:03] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:25:05] and switch therapists anytime

[00:25:06] for no additional charge.

[00:25:08] Look, even when we know what makes us happy,

[00:25:10] it's hard to make time for it.

[00:25:11] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself,

[00:25:13] non-negotiables like therapy

[00:25:15] are more important than ever.

[00:25:16] Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp.

[00:25:19] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:25:21] to get 10% off your first month.

[00:25:23] That's better help H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.

[00:25:27] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family,

[00:25:31] but everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:25:34] I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:25:36] still up here asking for help.

[00:25:38] He's emaciated.

[00:25:39] He's got tape around his legs.

[00:25:42] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name.

[00:25:44] Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie,

[00:25:47] the world of Mormonism

[00:25:48] and a secret therapy group

[00:25:50] that ruined lives.

[00:25:52] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:25:56] What sort of advice do you have for people

[00:26:00] to protect themselves from further emotional

[00:26:02] or legal harm if they are fearful

[00:26:05] of retaliation legally, emotionally and otherwise?

[00:26:08] I mean, it's so hard right from the beginning

[00:26:11] a number of experts are like,

[00:26:13] take care of yourself before you go into activist mode.

[00:26:15] And I was so hurt by the betrayal

[00:26:18] but also just enraged that this could go on.

[00:26:21] That wasn't really an option for me

[00:26:23] so I kind of was working on my healing whilst,

[00:26:26] dealing with all the legal stuff

[00:26:28] and trying to expose what was happening.

[00:26:30] So protecting yourself emotionally

[00:26:32] if you can find a good cult-informed trauma-informed therapist

[00:26:35] and we'll have some episodes coming up about that

[00:26:37] but always recommend a lawyer

[00:26:39] if that's the route that you need to go.

[00:26:41] Retaliation from the group is a very real thing

[00:26:43] but I think it's as the cult awareness

[00:26:45] golden era continues,

[00:26:47] it's less likely because there's all these templates now

[00:26:50] that are exposing coercive control.

[00:26:52] Yeah, there's an understanding of it now.

[00:26:54] Yeah, in the legal system that's different

[00:26:56] thanks to the case with Keith

[00:26:58] and also R. Kelly and Epstein.

[00:27:00] Like this is prosecutable in a different way now.

[00:27:03] I don't know what do you think, Nepp?

[00:27:04] I would also like say no.

[00:27:06] I say no to a fault.

[00:27:07] Sarah says yes to a fault.

[00:27:09] I think that combination allows us to make

[00:27:11] I'm not going to say perfect decisions

[00:27:12] but decent decisions, good decisions

[00:27:14] and set your boundaries, know them

[00:27:16] and take care of your body.

[00:27:17] Like your health.

[00:27:18] A lot of people go to substance.

[00:27:20] We went to health and wellness

[00:27:22] and I went to working out

[00:27:24] just because I knew stress was coming

[00:27:26] and I wanted to be physically okay

[00:27:28] kind of like we were going to take a punch, right?

[00:27:30] Like that's what it felt like.

[00:27:31] We were going to take a punch in life

[00:27:32] from a force that we exposed.

[00:27:34] Yeah, we'd win therapists say

[00:27:35] every day you got to sweat it out

[00:27:36] or cry it out.

[00:27:37] Right.

[00:27:38] From Lady Eternal 84

[00:27:39] how have you managed to remain married

[00:27:40] after leaving Nexium?

[00:27:41] Do you feel like you had to

[00:27:42] relearn or rediscover each other?

[00:27:44] No, I think I said

[00:27:45] in one of our first episodes

[00:27:47] this whole experience has confirmed

[00:27:49] the person I married.

[00:27:51] I thought I married.

[00:27:52] Same here.

[00:27:53] Yeah, you make friends in life

[00:27:54] and you don't really know

[00:27:55] what the friendship is

[00:27:57] until something externally threatens it, right?

[00:28:00] Or stress or there's some sort of trauma

[00:28:02] that happens and then

[00:28:03] the friendship is confirmed

[00:28:05] or it was false, right?

[00:28:07] You know guys have a term

[00:28:08] it's like is he a foxhole guy?

[00:28:10] Meaning if you were in a war

[00:28:11] would you want that guy

[00:28:12] in your foxhole next to you?

[00:28:14] Would he stay and break every bone

[00:28:16] in his hand to defend like or a street fight, right?

[00:28:19] And I found out more people are that way

[00:28:21] than I thought

[00:28:22] and I found out people that front that way

[00:28:24] or posture that they are that way aren't.

[00:28:26] And the whole basis of a friendship

[00:28:28] for me is like if that moment happens

[00:28:30] and they don't come through

[00:28:32] there's not a whole lot you can do

[00:28:33] to get the friendship back.

[00:28:34] I've seen your character.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:36] Right?

[00:28:37] And similarly with the spouse

[00:28:38] that you choose

[00:28:39] or the woman you choose to be with

[00:28:40] like it's even more important

[00:28:41] to come through with that

[00:28:42] for the other person

[00:28:43] and for you to demonstrate that to me.

[00:28:45] I mean that's what vulnerability is.

[00:28:47] I decide for you

[00:28:48] I'm going to trust you with my heart

[00:28:50] and vice versa, right?

[00:28:51] And yeah, it's been hard

[00:28:52] and we've had our moments

[00:28:53] but our biggest fight

[00:28:55] is like me getting in a fight with Siri

[00:28:57] and then after the fight

[00:28:59] Sarah was like, Siri was right.

[00:29:03] That was actually best.

[00:29:04] I was like how are you going to

[00:29:05] fucking side with Siri on this?

[00:29:07] I couldn't agree more.

[00:29:08] I love what you just said Nippy

[00:29:09] and I think

[00:29:10] we certainly found out who our friends were

[00:29:12] in this whole debacle.

[00:29:13] To be fair too, other people had their things going on

[00:29:16] and couldn't be there, right?

[00:29:18] So it doesn't mean that they're any less friends.

[00:29:20] It's just the people who really inconvenienced themselves

[00:29:22] saw our situation

[00:29:24] and were light in our lives.

[00:29:26] That's it.

[00:29:27] You don't have to do anything else

[00:29:28] in life for me.

[00:29:29] You're a lifer.

[00:29:30] You can have two or three of those.

[00:29:31] Life is better.

[00:29:32] We have a lot.

[00:29:33] Yes.

[00:29:34] And I do think we did have to re-learn

[00:29:35] or rediscover each other

[00:29:36] because I got this term

[00:29:38] from Stephen Hassan's book about

[00:29:40] the cult identity.

[00:29:41] I think my cult identity was a little stronger

[00:29:44] in terms of it was a thicker mask.

[00:29:46] My like Sarah and Nexium

[00:29:48] whereas I feel like you were probably more you.

[00:29:51] I was also humbled by it.

[00:29:53] You don't understand.

[00:29:54] Yeah.

[00:29:55] I was walking around a city

[00:29:56] failing to get people to do it

[00:29:57] because they were Googling this guy

[00:29:58] and nobody was taking it.

[00:30:00] You were in a city where

[00:30:01] it was fully embraced

[00:30:03] with like little adversity.

[00:30:04] You didn't have media

[00:30:05] the same media problems that we had

[00:30:07] so it was actually cool.

[00:30:08] For me it was kind of a

[00:30:10] just kind of egg on my face

[00:30:11] and it wasn't working.

[00:30:13] But you were still you.

[00:30:14] Yeah I had my boundaries.

[00:30:15] You had your boundaries

[00:30:16] but either way there are time in the cult

[00:30:18] we were super super super busy.

[00:30:20] We didn't really have time to connect

[00:30:21] No.

[00:30:22] deeply or like even spend time

[00:30:23] we didn't have a honeymoon

[00:30:24] everyone knows that

[00:30:25] but afterwards then

[00:30:26] there was the fight

[00:30:27] and I feel like just now

[00:30:28] we're like part of the move

[00:30:30] to Atlanta is the start fresh

[00:30:32] and I want to date again.

[00:30:34] I want to get to know

[00:30:35] this incredibly intelligent, handsome,

[00:30:38] witty.

[00:30:40] Should I go on?

[00:30:41] No you can stop there.

[00:30:42] Okay my point is

[00:30:43] is that do you feel like

[00:30:44] we're starting fresh

[00:30:45] in addition to what Nipi said

[00:30:46] we also have an incredible

[00:30:47] couples counselor

[00:30:48] we see every six weeks or so

[00:30:49] and we have good communication

[00:30:51] but we have to remember

[00:30:52] to do things like

[00:30:53] go on date night

[00:30:54] life is busy.

[00:30:55] Troy call you Insta mom this morning.

[00:30:57] Teasing me for being on Instagram

[00:30:59] Insta mom thanks.

[00:31:00] Insta mom.

[00:31:01] He's getting funny.

[00:31:03] Oh my god.

[00:31:04] This is from Ivana Tinkle.

[00:31:07] Who wrote Ivana Tinkle?

[00:31:08] Probably Jess.

[00:31:09] What's your dream role

[00:31:10] or dream show

[00:31:11] that you'd like to get an acting part on?

[00:31:13] I would love to be in succession.

[00:31:14] That would be fun.

[00:31:15] Okay fine.

[00:31:16] All right.

[00:31:17] Okay so no

[00:31:19] that's not going to happen.

[00:31:20] Okay so right.

[00:31:23] That is an impression

[00:31:24] of Nipi being Kendall Roy

[00:31:25] from succession

[00:31:26] who we fucking love

[00:31:27] and we love the dialogue in

[00:31:29] okay yeah all right

[00:31:30] sure in succession

[00:31:31] people who watch succession

[00:31:32] will know what we're talking about.

[00:31:33] Apparently we need to

[00:31:34] watch Righteous Gemstones

[00:31:36] which we have not yet.

[00:31:37] It is on the list.

[00:31:38] Righteous Gemstones

[00:31:39] has been pounding down our throat.

[00:31:41] I keep thinking it's Uncajams.

[00:31:43] Uncajams.

[00:31:44] Uncajams.

[00:31:45] So we also want to

[00:31:46] I mean I'd love to be in any

[00:31:47] period piece

[00:31:48] from any period

[00:31:49] other than now

[00:31:50] other than now

[00:31:52] love to be in a

[00:31:53] Jane Austen

[00:31:54] really?

[00:31:55] Anything.

[00:31:56] Yeah like I'd love to look at

[00:31:57] Downton Abbey.

[00:31:58] Oh my god.

[00:31:59] That'd be incredible.

[00:32:00] Downtown Abbey?

[00:32:01] Like any kind of period piece

[00:32:02] I like dressing up.

[00:32:03] Any of your friends or family

[00:32:04] stop talking to you

[00:32:05] because you keep trying to get

[00:32:06] them into next year

[00:32:07] even after they told you

[00:32:08] they weren't interested

[00:32:09] from kiddie Sue.

[00:32:10] I mean there's people in your family

[00:32:12] who aren't talking to you

[00:32:13] Part of that question

[00:32:14] I don't know yet

[00:32:15] because I keep finding out

[00:32:16] but some people

[00:32:17] it was hard

[00:32:18] some people were like

[00:32:19] yeah I would never have been around

[00:32:20] yet so I talked about

[00:32:21] but two of my best friends

[00:32:22] that I tried to get in

[00:32:23] totally cool with me about it

[00:32:24] I got to the point where

[00:32:25] I didn't bring it up around them

[00:32:26] and that's why

[00:32:27] they're still my best friends

[00:32:28] and they never did it

[00:32:29] and they were like

[00:32:30] when it was over

[00:32:31] like dude you never need that shit

[00:32:32] like when it was over

[00:32:33] but you know a couple people told me

[00:32:35] yeah it was hard to be around

[00:32:36] if they're people who aren't talking to us

[00:32:37] we don't know

[00:32:38] yeah like maybe a handful of people

[00:32:40] I was like you really should do this

[00:32:42] but then I wasn't comfortable in that role

[00:32:44] so it's probably like four or five people

[00:32:46] that I've since reconnected with

[00:32:47] and been like yeah dude

[00:32:48] it was weird when you did that

[00:32:49] I'm like sorry

[00:32:50] like hey get it hope you're okay

[00:32:51] that's been the extent of it

[00:32:52] but no it's mostly positive

[00:32:53] yeah mostly positive

[00:32:54] I would say for me too

[00:32:55] yeah my real friends

[00:32:56] were just like happy

[00:32:57] to have me back

[00:32:58] you're around them

[00:32:59] in a more authentic way

[00:33:00] I had friends that I tried

[00:33:01] to enroll and didn't do it

[00:33:02] and I stopped

[00:33:03] it was never brought up again

[00:33:04] but there's certain people that

[00:33:05] like you're not trying to enroll anymore

[00:33:07] and then the friendship's different

[00:33:08] because it doesn't have that energy

[00:33:09] there are definitely peripheral people

[00:33:11] that every time I saw them

[00:33:12] I probably brought it up

[00:33:13] or like bugged them in some way

[00:33:14] but my close friends

[00:33:15] that have known for two decades

[00:33:17] that weren't gonna do it

[00:33:18] I still was telling them

[00:33:19] what was going on in my life

[00:33:20] but I wasn't trying to enroll them

[00:33:22] certainly it taints those relationships

[00:33:24] and there's a you know

[00:33:25] a period of healing and forgiveness

[00:33:26] but the ones that were like

[00:33:27] judgmental

[00:33:28] and tough on us when we were in

[00:33:30] some of them like aren't at this point

[00:33:32] gonna like watch the vow

[00:33:34] or listen to the podcast

[00:33:35] and understand us better

[00:33:36] there's still like

[00:33:37] well I knew it was a call

[00:33:38] the whole time

[00:33:39] so that's kind of hard

[00:33:41] do that voice again

[00:33:43] well I knew it was a call

[00:33:45] the whole time

[00:33:46] no it wasn't good

[00:33:47] it wasn't quite as good

[00:33:48] I knew it was a call

[00:33:49] I mean I totally saw

[00:33:50] it was a call

[00:33:51] everyone knew it was a call

[00:33:52] I tried to warn them

[00:33:53] re-put yourself

[00:33:54] no I don't know

[00:33:55] I don't think there's that many people out there

[00:33:56] it's kind of like

[00:33:57] I don't know when you see someone

[00:33:58] get the effect of what you thought was going on

[00:34:01] I think generally for most people

[00:34:02] their compassion kicks in

[00:34:03] they're sorry it happened

[00:34:04] yeah most people

[00:34:05] most people

[00:34:06] most people

[00:34:07] and I think I've said this in another episode

[00:34:08] like if you say that you knew

[00:34:10] then you're an asshole

[00:34:11] we're not going to the police before us

[00:34:13] so there

[00:34:14] you're not really an asshole

[00:34:15] most people don't

[00:34:16] I think you're talking about

[00:34:17] a very small margin of people

[00:34:20] most people were like

[00:34:21] that seems a little off

[00:34:22] or weird or culty

[00:34:23] but they couldn't figure out

[00:34:24] exactly what it was

[00:34:25] and it was also balanced

[00:34:27] by what seemed to be

[00:34:29] that seemed to be thriving

[00:34:30] for me Sarah

[00:34:31] when people were like

[00:34:32] how the fuck did you fall for that

[00:34:34] for me I'm like

[00:34:35] I'm kind of agreeing with them

[00:34:37] like I make allowance for it

[00:34:38] you know what I mean

[00:34:39] because those were our questions

[00:34:42] knowing what you know now

[00:34:43] it's easy to go

[00:34:44] how could you fall for it

[00:34:45] that's part of the reason

[00:34:46] why we do this podcast

[00:34:47] so we can show what it looked like

[00:34:48] at the beginning

[00:34:49] it's not even that we didn't have

[00:34:50] critical thinking

[00:34:51] because this program was called

[00:34:52] a critical thinking program

[00:34:53] we were just critically thinking

[00:34:54] based on a false assumption

[00:34:56] the false assumption being that

[00:34:58] Keith is good

[00:34:59] like nobody would ever question that

[00:35:01] because that would be ultimately

[00:35:02] suppressive right

[00:35:03] and would expose that you were

[00:35:04] suppressive based on the projection

[00:35:06] one of the things that was kind of

[00:35:07] clever about it is that

[00:35:08] there was kind of a corporate

[00:35:09] environment of building a business

[00:35:11] even though we were never really

[00:35:13] building it

[00:35:14] which kind of made it

[00:35:15] have sort of a corporate feel

[00:35:16] when you're just away from all the

[00:35:18] stuff that we found out

[00:35:19] yeah did have that feel

[00:35:20] you had like centers

[00:35:21] anyhow

[00:35:23] hey culty listeners

[00:35:24] lovers of cult busting content

[00:35:27] ALBCers

[00:35:28] culty kids

[00:35:30] hmmm

[00:35:31] we've gotten a lot of requests

[00:35:32] to put up a link where people can

[00:35:33] throw some funds up behind the

[00:35:34] podcast

[00:35:35] and help support what a little bit

[00:35:36] culty is doing

[00:35:37] and you know what

[00:35:38] that's a great idea

[00:35:39] thank you for that

[00:35:41] and as we've gotten to know

[00:35:42] other podcasters

[00:35:43] and learn more about this whole

[00:35:44] podcast thing

[00:35:46] we've been learning that it takes

[00:35:47] a whole lot of different resources

[00:35:49] and different sources of revenue

[00:35:50] and listener support

[00:35:51] to keep it rolling

[00:35:52] sponsorships

[00:35:53] and ads

[00:35:54] and the occasional appeal to

[00:35:56] amaze balls listeners

[00:35:57] like you

[00:35:58] that's why we added a way

[00:35:59] for anyone who wants to support

[00:36:00] the show to do exactly that

[00:36:02] you can go to a little bit

[00:36:03] culty.com

[00:36:04] slash support

[00:36:05] or the link in our

[00:36:06] Instagram bio

[00:36:07] or smash that link

[00:36:08] in our show notes

[00:36:09] to make a one-time contribution

[00:36:10] or a recurring one

[00:36:12] we will pay your support

[00:36:13] forward with a galactic level

[00:36:14] of love

[00:36:15] and light

[00:36:16] and healing resources

[00:36:17] of course

[00:36:18] again it's a little bit

[00:36:19] culty.com

[00:36:20] slash support

[00:36:21] or check out the link

[00:36:22] in our Instagram bios

[00:36:23] next up we really got to figure

[00:36:24] out what to call you

[00:36:25] our listenership

[00:36:26] ALBC nation

[00:36:27] flying monkeys

[00:36:28] we're going to have to workshop

[00:36:30] that

[00:36:31] thanks guys

[00:36:33] this episode is sponsored by

[00:36:34] better help

[00:36:36] what are your self-care

[00:36:37] non-negotiables

[00:36:38] maybe you never skip

[00:36:39] leg day

[00:36:40] or never miss yoga

[00:36:41] maybe it's getting eight

[00:36:42] hours of sleep

[00:36:43] that's my personal

[00:36:44] and everyone's dream isn't it

[00:36:46] well I definitely have some

[00:36:47] non-negotiables

[00:36:48] like I'm in Vancouver

[00:36:49] right now

[00:36:50] and I'm spending

[00:36:51] literally as much time

[00:36:52] as I can outside in nature

[00:36:53] hashtag

[00:36:54] cold pools

[00:36:55] hashtag

[00:36:56] crushing it

[00:36:57] nature is a non-negotiable

[00:36:58] not enough time

[00:36:59] the fresh air and the trees

[00:37:00] around me

[00:37:01] and I start to feel

[00:37:02] not great

[00:37:03] not myself

[00:37:04] not grounded

[00:37:05] therapy day

[00:37:06] is a bit like my nature walks

[00:37:07] I try to not miss it

[00:37:08] and I know I'm just going

[00:37:09] to feel so much better

[00:37:10] all around

[00:37:11] if I make it a priority

[00:37:12] I get so much out of it

[00:37:13] it helps me put my worries

[00:37:14] and anxieties

[00:37:15] in their rightful place

[00:37:16] and helps me clear

[00:37:17] my mind

[00:37:18] so I can focus

[00:37:19] on what I really need

[00:37:20] because I hate to say

[00:37:21] no to people

[00:37:22] you know what I mean

[00:37:23] thanks therapy

[00:37:24] thanks for helping me see that

[00:37:25] and if you're thinking

[00:37:26] of starting therapy

[00:37:27] give BetterHelp a try

[00:37:28] it's entirely online

[00:37:29] designed to be convenient

[00:37:30] flexible and suited

[00:37:31] to your schedule

[00:37:32] just fill out a brief

[00:37:33] questionnaire

[00:37:34] and get matched

[00:37:35] with a licensed therapist

[00:37:36] and switch therapists

[00:37:37] anytime for

[00:37:38] no additional charge

[00:37:39] look

[00:37:40] even when we know

[00:37:41] what makes us happy

[00:37:42] it's hard to make time

[00:37:43] for it

[00:37:44] but when you feel

[00:37:45] like you have

[00:37:46] no time for yourself

[00:37:47] non-negotiables

[00:37:48] like therapy

[00:37:49] visit BetterHelp.com

[00:37:50] slash culty today

[00:37:51] to get 10% off

[00:37:52] your first month

[00:37:53] that's BetterHelp

[00:37:54] H-E-L-P

[00:37:55] dot com

[00:37:56] slash culty

[00:37:57] Meals bring people together

[00:37:59] but for many families

[00:38:00] providing their next meal

[00:38:02] can be a challenge

[00:38:03] you can help by

[00:38:04] participating in Macy's

[00:38:05] annual Feeding the Hungry

[00:38:07] Food Drive

[00:38:08] all proceeds go

[00:38:09] toward local food banks

[00:38:10] and families

[00:38:11] now through January 31st

[00:38:13] you can purchase

[00:38:14] an icon in store

[00:38:15] or online

[00:38:16] or watch out

[00:38:17] for the blue

[00:38:18] free shelf tags

[00:38:19] where a portion

[00:38:20] of your purchase

[00:38:21] will be donated

[00:38:22] to local pantries

[00:38:23] together

[00:38:24] we can combat hunger

[00:38:25] in our local communities

[00:38:26] at Macy's

[00:38:28] okay

[00:38:29] couple more questions here

[00:38:30] Nippy

[00:38:31] do you ever worry

[00:38:32] about falling into

[00:38:33] another good thing

[00:38:34] that turns out

[00:38:35] not to be so good

[00:38:36] I do not worry about that

[00:38:37] you feel pretty

[00:38:38] bulletproof at this point

[00:38:39] nope I don't

[00:38:40] but I don't worry

[00:38:41] about falling into

[00:38:42] like another program

[00:38:43] or anything like that

[00:38:44] I fail right now

[00:38:45] I'm trying to avoid

[00:38:46] most programs

[00:38:47] that protect us

[00:38:48] and someone said

[00:38:49] I'd love to know

[00:38:50] how much effort

[00:38:51] you need to put into

[00:38:52] preparing for each episode

[00:38:53] you seem well versed

[00:38:54] in the topic

[00:38:55] guest and well prepared

[00:38:56] why thank you

[00:38:57] and it varies

[00:38:58] it varies

[00:38:59] yeah if someone's

[00:39:00] written a book

[00:39:01] I generally read it

[00:39:02] in fact Nippy

[00:39:03] and I usually try

[00:39:04] to consume different things

[00:39:05] if there's a book

[00:39:06] and a docu-series

[00:39:07] usually we watch

[00:39:08] whatever is out there

[00:39:09] already to research

[00:39:10] but if there's

[00:39:11] multiple articles

[00:39:12] we'll split them up

[00:39:13] and sometimes we

[00:39:14] do that so that

[00:39:15] we can ask

[00:39:16] sometimes up to

[00:39:17] like 10 hours

[00:39:18] I'm obsessed with

[00:39:19] you know when I ask

[00:39:20] questions

[00:39:21] I look for

[00:39:22] how the person understands

[00:39:23] the abuses of power

[00:39:24] that went on

[00:39:25] and try to get

[00:39:26] their interpretation

[00:39:27] and their words

[00:39:29] on what they saw

[00:39:30] and it's

[00:39:31] we've got just

[00:39:32] multiple perspectives

[00:39:33] on the same thing

[00:39:34] right Sarah

[00:39:35] wouldn't you say

[00:39:36] one of the things

[00:39:37] that we were saying earlier

[00:39:38] we've got multiple perspectives

[00:39:39] and where there was

[00:39:40] a deficit of language

[00:39:41] before

[00:39:42] we have so many explanations

[00:39:43] for it

[00:39:44] what it looks like

[00:39:45] so hopefully our audience

[00:39:46] recognizes that

[00:39:47] it's undeniably going on out there

[00:39:49] here's how you can see it

[00:39:50] and here's what it looks like

[00:39:51] and here's what it sounds like

[00:39:52] or here are the questions to ask

[00:39:53] when you see these symptoms

[00:39:54] right

[00:39:55] yeah and somebody asked

[00:39:56] if we're helping other people

[00:39:58] take down their leaders

[00:39:59] and that bento box

[00:40:00] really disturbed

[00:40:01] and upset me

[00:40:02] which was true

[00:40:03] she said

[00:40:04] or he I'm not sure

[00:40:05] happy chaos

[00:40:06] are you doing things

[00:40:07] behind the scenes

[00:40:08] you can't talk about

[00:40:09] yeah actually

[00:40:10] there's lots going on

[00:40:11] to try to get people

[00:40:12] the resources

[00:40:13] that they need

[00:40:14] the resources

[00:40:15] it's an important distinction

[00:40:16] to make there too

[00:40:17] like the objective

[00:40:18] isn't particularly

[00:40:19] to quote take down the leader

[00:40:21] for me it's not

[00:40:22] this crusade of doing that

[00:40:24] I think through education

[00:40:25] you expose the leader

[00:40:26] and then the leader

[00:40:27] decides if they want to double down

[00:40:29] on their lie

[00:40:30] right

[00:40:31] you make it undeniable

[00:40:32] people can get the research

[00:40:33] right

[00:40:34] people can read

[00:40:35] and hear

[00:40:36] read these articles

[00:40:37] and listen to these podcasts

[00:40:38] and go

[00:40:39] maybe I don't want to be a part of that

[00:40:40] and they can make better decisions

[00:40:41] yeah it's just how to get sensitive

[00:40:43] and not expose it

[00:40:44] totally

[00:40:45] but truthfully

[00:40:46] that can't be our lives

[00:40:48] you know they call it busters

[00:40:50] like it's so

[00:40:52] back to the earlier question

[00:40:53] about boundaries

[00:40:54] and trauma and stuff

[00:40:55] going through that

[00:40:56] with the bento box gang

[00:40:57] as we call them

[00:40:58] was really intense

[00:40:59] because we certainly were

[00:41:01] on that ride

[00:41:02] emotionally with them

[00:41:03] as they broke their news

[00:41:05] as things went live

[00:41:06] and then there's a rolling stone article

[00:41:07] that was written shortly after

[00:41:08] put a link to that

[00:41:09] in our show notes

[00:41:10] so watching them go through that

[00:41:12] was rewarding in terms of like

[00:41:14] people left that group

[00:41:15] because they saw the truth

[00:41:16] for what it was

[00:41:17] some people doubled down

[00:41:18] and stayed in

[00:41:19] which of course happens in every group

[00:41:20] but many people left

[00:41:21] and got friends out

[00:41:23] and there was a whole flurry

[00:41:24] of things behind the scenes

[00:41:25] and will continue to

[00:41:26] you know people were being

[00:41:27] and continue to be

[00:41:28] like you know

[00:41:29] so people were stopped

[00:41:30] from getting on planes

[00:41:31] because they were going to go to a retreat

[00:41:32] and like

[00:41:33] lots of things are happening

[00:41:34] that are not part of the podcast

[00:41:35] to the point where

[00:41:36] like we're growing our teams

[00:41:37] we can handle all this

[00:41:38] it's a lot

[00:41:39] and the reminder that we aren't experts

[00:41:40] if you feel like

[00:41:41] someone's in a cult

[00:41:42] and you want to do an intervention

[00:41:43] and get a team on board

[00:41:45] there's a number of people

[00:41:46] who do that from different

[00:41:47] sort of perspectives

[00:41:48] and approaches

[00:41:49] and a lot of that information

[00:41:50] can be found again

[00:41:51] on sarahedbenson.com

[00:41:53] slash resources

[00:41:54] second to last question

[00:41:55] Deanna, I know we need to be open

[00:41:56] to the idea that

[00:41:57] no one is immune to cults

[00:41:58] and everyone thinks

[00:41:59] it can't happen to them

[00:42:00] do you think you're immune

[00:42:01] from cults now?

[00:42:02] yeah I mean

[00:42:03] I think that

[00:42:04] knowledge does grant immunity

[00:42:05] to a degree

[00:42:06] way more so than

[00:42:07] you know

[00:42:08] the knowledge that we have now

[00:42:09] is much more protective

[00:42:10] than what any of us had

[00:42:11] in the early 2000s

[00:42:12] when this all started right?

[00:42:14] yeah for sure

[00:42:15] I mean even if I'd watched

[00:42:17] Holy Hell

[00:42:18] or like Wild Wild Country

[00:42:19] or any of them

[00:42:20] the vow especially

[00:42:21] it's like

[00:42:22] it's all out there

[00:42:23] okay last question

[00:42:24] Katie Lenn 898

[00:42:25] what has been y'all's favorite

[00:42:26] discovery about the world

[00:42:27] outside of Dexion?

[00:42:28] what has been your favorite

[00:42:29] or most meaningful

[00:42:30] experience post escape?

[00:42:32] on a person to person level

[00:42:33] I have really enjoyed

[00:42:35] meeting people

[00:42:36] and just meeting them

[00:42:37] it was impossible

[00:42:39] to meet somebody

[00:42:40] when I was in Nexium

[00:42:41] and not think about

[00:42:42] which program they would

[00:42:43] like the most

[00:42:44] would they be a good fit

[00:42:45] for Janesse

[00:42:46] or perhaps acting

[00:42:47] in the source?

[00:42:48] would they do a 5 day

[00:42:49] or ethos?

[00:42:50] what were their limitations

[00:42:51] how did they see the world

[00:42:52] what were they struggling with

[00:42:53] those are the things

[00:42:54] that were in my mind

[00:42:55] whenever I met somebody

[00:42:56] and it was very

[00:42:57] it was just such a relief

[00:42:58] to meet someone

[00:42:59] just be curious

[00:43:00] and like

[00:43:01] ask questions about their lives

[00:43:02] and have no

[00:43:03] hidden motivation

[00:43:04] even though my hidden

[00:43:05] motivation had good intention

[00:43:06] still it felt icky

[00:43:07] and I didn't know

[00:43:08] how icky it felt

[00:43:09] until I didn't feel it anymore

[00:43:10] if that makes sense

[00:43:11] my most meaningful

[00:43:12] or favorite experience

[00:43:13] post escape

[00:43:14] just like living life

[00:43:16] and doing simple things

[00:43:18] like Saturday pancakes

[00:43:20] and going to the farmers market

[00:43:22] and getting farm fresh eggs

[00:43:23] I like taking a nap with Ace

[00:43:25] taking a nap with Ace is the best

[00:43:27] he just like

[00:43:28] snuggle up with him

[00:43:29] and have a nap together

[00:43:31] and your farm is recharged

[00:43:32] kids are awesome

[00:43:34] kids are awesome

[00:43:35] I think that's it

[00:43:36] so guys a couple

[00:43:37] quick things

[00:43:38] I really appreciate everybody

[00:43:39] writing in

[00:43:40] to come up with a name

[00:43:41] for you the listeners

[00:43:42] so far we haven't landed

[00:43:43] anything that feels right

[00:43:44] but here's some options

[00:43:45] the croutons

[00:43:46] I guess in relation

[00:43:47] to word salad

[00:43:48] the 120s

[00:43:49] the amaze balls

[00:43:50] the little bits

[00:43:51] the unfollowers

[00:43:52] and that's it

[00:43:53] and everyone's listening

[00:43:55] every week

[00:43:56] who's making those

[00:43:57] one time contributions

[00:43:58] and monthly contributions

[00:43:59] already thank you

[00:44:00] your support

[00:44:01] for a little bit culty

[00:44:02] truly is amaze balls

[00:44:03] I'm going to keep that word

[00:44:04] you have no idea

[00:44:05] how much that helps

[00:44:06] seriously

[00:44:07] I appreciate that

[00:44:08] alright

[00:44:09] and on that note

[00:44:10] so that's the end for Ask Me Anything

[00:44:11] we'll post again

[00:44:12] and do it again soon

[00:44:13] because that was fun

[00:44:14] until next time

[00:44:15] thanks everybody

[00:44:16] bye

[00:44:17] imagine yourself

[00:44:18] walking into a forest

[00:44:21] you can see the path

[00:44:22] and the trees

[00:44:24] high above you

[00:44:25] the air is crisp

[00:44:27] you are walking towards

[00:44:28] your happy place

[00:44:29] allegedly

[00:44:30] allegedly

[00:44:31] say it with me

[00:44:32] anything said here

[00:44:33] I'll miss podcast

[00:44:34] about alleged cults

[00:44:35] alleged MLM schemes

[00:44:36] alleged douchebaggery

[00:44:38] mindfuckery

[00:44:39] criminality

[00:44:40] spiritual fraud

[00:44:41] or the like

[00:44:42] is offered purely

[00:44:43] as commentary

[00:44:44] because the views

[00:44:45] and opinions

[00:44:46] expressed on a little bit culty

[00:44:48] do not necessarily reflect

[00:44:50] on official policy

[00:44:51] or position

[00:44:52] of the podcast

[00:44:53] and any content

[00:44:54] provided by our guests

[00:44:55] bloggers

[00:44:56] sponsors

[00:44:57] or authors

[00:44:58] are their opinion

[00:44:59] and are not intended

[00:45:00] to malign

[00:45:01] any religious

[00:45:02] group

[00:45:03] club

[00:45:04] organization

[00:45:05] business individual

[00:45:06] anyone

[00:45:07] or anything

[00:45:08] so just let these words

[00:45:09] drift into your mind

[00:45:10] without needing to focus

[00:45:11] on any of them

[00:45:13] you are great

[00:45:14] you are capable

[00:45:16] you deserve to be happy

[00:45:18] nobody's mad at you

[00:45:19] unless you're actually

[00:45:20] a narcissistic

[00:45:21] culty criminal

[00:45:23] if that's you

[00:45:24] cut that shit out

[00:45:25] don't be a fuckwad

[00:45:27] but if that's not you

[00:45:28] again

[00:45:29] you are great

[00:45:30] you are capable

[00:45:31] you deserve to be happy

[00:45:33] a little bit culty

[00:45:34] loves you

[00:45:37] seeking death

[00:45:38] to the depths of the ocean

[00:45:41] I'm hanging on

[00:45:42] to the wind in my love

[00:45:46] if I let go

[00:45:47] I'll let all I could leave

[00:45:49] but I know

[00:45:51] let's keep the conversation

[00:45:52] going

[00:45:53] we'll be back soon

[00:45:54] with more episodes

[00:45:55] of a little bit culty

[00:45:56] with more action

[00:45:57] and more content

[00:45:58] and of a little bit culty

[00:46:00] with more experts and survivors

[00:46:01] and sometimes

[00:46:02] experts who are survivors

[00:46:03] as well as some familiar faces

[00:46:05] from the vow

[00:46:06] from HBO

[00:46:07] if you've got suggestions

[00:46:08] or questions on upcoming topics

[00:46:10] find us on Instagram

[00:46:11] at a little bit culty

[00:46:13] and for more background

[00:46:14] on what brought me here

[00:46:15] my memoir

[00:46:16] Scarred The True Story

[00:46:17] of How I Escaped

[00:46:18] Nexium

[00:46:19] the cult that bound my life

[00:46:20] is available on Amazon

[00:46:21] Audible

[00:46:22] and where

[00:46:23] most books are sold

[00:46:24] if you like to help us

[00:46:25] spread the word

[00:46:26] about a little bit culty

[00:46:27] please give us a five-star review

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[00:46:29] seriously like

[00:46:30] take out their phone

[00:46:31] and tell them to press subscribe

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[00:46:33] we're also available

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[00:46:36] and every major listening app

[00:46:37] and if you're listening

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[00:46:39] tap or swipe over

[00:46:40] the cover art of this podcast

[00:46:41] to find show notes

[00:46:42] and helpful resources

[00:46:43] you might also

[00:46:44] find some offers

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[00:46:46] and when you support

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[00:46:48] you help us keep this

[00:46:49] podcast going

[00:46:50] just don't be

[00:46:51] a little bit culty about it

[00:46:52] A Little Bit Culty

[00:46:53] is executive produced by me

[00:46:54] your co-host

[00:46:55] Sarah Edmondson

[00:46:56] and Anthony Nippy Ames

[00:46:58] that's me

[00:46:59] Associate producer is Jess Tardy

[00:47:01] produced, edited, mixed

[00:47:03] and mastered by citizens of sound

[00:47:05] our amazing theme song

[00:47:07] Cultivated is by John Bryant

[00:47:08] and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[00:47:10] I'm Sarah Edmondson

[00:47:11] and thanks for listening to

[00:47:13] A Little Bit Culty