Inside the Yellow Deli Cult: Tamara Mathieu on Life in Twelve Tribes (Part 1)

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[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cult's are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:49] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult. If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out. We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

[00:01:15] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty. Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everybody. This is a cult that has been on the request list from y'all for a long time.

[00:01:44] Some people call it that group that works out of the Yellow Deli, but it's actually called the 12 Tribes, and they call themselves a church. But the Southern Poverty Law Center calls it a Christian fundamentalist cult. Our guest today is Tammy Matthew, and she spent 14 years in the 12 Tribes. Tammy was drawn to their wholesome, family-oriented values, but she soon realized that image hides a seriously culty environment. Members give up their worldly possessions when they join.

[00:02:11] They live in high-control communities where they're expected to cut off contact with family who does not approve, including their own children who escape. And so many children leave the church when they grow up. Corporal punishment is a major tenet of the 12 Tribes, and allegations of child abuse have been servicing for years. They also have deep roots in biblical patriarchy, where women have little control outside the house and are expected to be subservient to men. Overall, it's an insanely controlling and authoritarian group who isolates and micromanages their followers.

[00:02:41] They use fear and guilt tactics to keep members in line. Our guest, Tammy, escaped 12 Tribes with her family in 2014, and now they help support other members who want to do the same. Today, she'll share stories about her life in the cult, including an epiphany at a Rite Aid, and what made her realize she needed to get her family out. We'll also talk about how she wrote her book, All Who Believed, a memoir about her time in the 12 Tribes. Yes. Tammy's story is heartbreaking, but inspiring. Let's welcome her to the show.

[00:03:24] Tammy, welcome to Little Bit Culti. Thank you. How are you doing today? I'm great, thanks. How are you all? Good. Good. I'm wearing this floral shirt in your honor. Oh, bright floral pattern. Yep. I love it. I'm so excited that you're here to tell us about the 12 Tribes, which I first heard about when I was on an episode of Cults and Extreme Beliefs, which I believe you've seen. Yes. Correct? Yes, I did watch that.

[00:03:49] So I was whistleblowing against NXIVM, and I met a wonderful young man who was on the Cults and Extreme Beliefs, and talking about the 12 Tribes was the first time I'd heard about it, and Yellow Deli and everything. Right. Yep. Do you know who I'm talking about? Not off the top of my head. He was quite a brave young soul. All the survivors were- We've got to tell them what Yellow Deli is. Oh, of course we're going to talk about Yellow Deli. A lot of our listeners will know what Yellow Deli is, because we were just in Chattanooga, and people were like, oh, you've got to go by the Yellow Deli, which we didn't.

[00:04:16] But now I want to. Let's back up. How old were you? What was going on in your life? Tell us a little bit about Tammy in her early 20s that led to you joining this group. What was going on for you? So I met and married a man who, he had an aunt that joined the 12 Tribes way back in the early days, 1981. So my husband grew up knowing all about the 12 Tribes and visiting Island Pond. He had cousins, you know.

[00:04:44] So he and I met. We were both going to the University of Vermont. And I didn't learn about the 12 Tribes aspect of his family until I was newly pregnant. I was 21 years old, newly pregnant. And we went to his parents' house just for a weekend visit. But his cousin, who was a part of the 12 Tribes, and his new wife, who was the same age as me and also newly pregnant, and his aunt were there for a visit.

[00:05:15] That was like my very first experience meeting people from there. And I was really curious, had a lot of questions, you know, thought they were kind of odd and knew that there was religion involved. So I thought, oh, man, you know, we're not married. I'm pregnant. You know, I wonder if they think I'm, you know, this terrible person. But it just kind of, you know, we met them. I didn't really think that much about the 12 Tribes after that. I was busy getting ready to have a baby and we were planning our wedding and things like that.

[00:05:42] So then the next time that I met them was the day of my wedding, where we had invited all of his relatives that were in the group. And, you know, they always travel like as a group, you know, usually it's not just one person that comes or, you know, but several people will come. So there were all these people at my reception that I didn't really know who they were. My family members was asking me, you know, who are those people? And they were being incredibly helpful.

[00:06:07] Like they just jumped into my reception and they were clearing off tables and setting out platters of food and taking out the trash. And they stayed until everything was cleaned up. They like literally cleaned up our whole reception. And I was just like, wow, that was pretty incredible. You know, they just like stepped in and helped out. And then the next day there's a community in Rutland, Vermont, which is only about 20 minutes from where my in-laws lived.

[00:06:32] And there was kind of like this big reunion, like a bunch of people from the Rutland community came over to their house to visit their relatives who mainly lived in Hyannis, Massachusetts at that time. So, you know, this is like the day after I got married and suddenly I'm meeting all of these 12 tribes people. And there were a lot of young women, women my age, women that also had a baby or young children.

[00:06:57] And I just, I talked with them, went for walks just all day long, just asking questions about their life. And that was like the moment where I was like, wow, I kind of feel left out. I'm kind of envious of these people going home to this amazing life together. And I'm going back to my house and I'm going to be alone with my baby and my husband's going to go back to work. And they all just seemed so happy and tight.

[00:07:21] And so that was really the moment that my curiosity was piqued to the point that I wanted to visit, wanted to learn more. I wanted to stay in touch with those people that I'd met that day and write letters. And I was a new mother, really young, just kind of facing raising my child. Do you see that now as kind of the love bombing phase? Yeah, yeah. And I was in just a susceptible place. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:47] One of the big moments that I remember when Emmett was just five weeks old was the Columbine school shooting. Like that hadn't really happened before. And I'm a mother, I have a child. Am I going to have to send my child to a dangerous school in a few years? Like I just started having all those types of thoughts. Like what kind of society did I just bring a child into? And how can I offer this child the safest, the healthiest, the most wholesome life that I can?

[00:08:16] I didn't feel adequate in and of myself to do it. And I thought, wow, with a group in this communal setting with these beautiful family values and kind of old fashioned, wholesome standards, you know, just like it seemed so perfect. And like just such a wonderful, wonderful life that I could offer my child. I loved that about your book because I think it's so important for people to imagine those moments.

[00:08:41] And was there also a little bit of like kind of normal postpartum, just like those feelings of, I wasn't sure if it was depression or anxiety, but just like feeling so alone with all of that as well, I'm imagining.

[00:09:22] Yeah, absolutely. I was just like community for myself in that sense and have like a new group. But yeah, my life had just changed so drastically, like in the course of a year where I had just been like a college student living in an apartment with my friends. And then all of a sudden I'm a married stay at home mom. It was just, it was so drastic. And so it just put me in that position of like, is this it?

[00:09:45] I'm just going to be here alone in my house, like trying to do the best I can, you know, like I wanted that sense of family and community. Do you think that was the plan for your husband to have you come join 12 Flames? Oh, absolutely not. He was not on board. I got him to do it. I see. Okay. Yes. Well, before we get to that, tell us about the love bombing phase. Because when you described the community at the beginning, I mean, our listeners know that I'm a sucker for community.

[00:10:15] And I'm always like, and the food, the way you described the food is like, I'm in. So they really paint a pretty picture, it seems like, to get, to hook people into the community and make them feel welcome. And like, look at all the perks. So what are the perks? And what was it like when you were kind of dabbling with it before you joined? Well, I understand the term love bombing.

[00:10:36] But looking back and also being in the situation myself where I was the person that was hosting guests, it's not this like deliberate thing where beforehand you kind of think, okay, I'm going to make this place look great. I'm really going to put on this great performance or anything like that. Like, I felt like these people really did genuinely have an interest in me and their kindness was genuine.

[00:11:02] You know, I don't feel like they were like, oh, here's this new bride. Like, she's really vulnerable. Like, let's get her. You know, I don't, I feel like they're just, there was a genuine love. And one of them was my husband's own aunt, you know, so that was family. So I felt very much like she had genuine love and care. I wouldn't have responded well to some obvious external pressure that would have driven me away. But I didn't feel like that at all.

[00:11:31] I felt like it was all my interest. It was me asking the questions. It wasn't so much of them like proselytizing or evangelizing me or, you know, pushing things on me at first. So I can see how at the time I was drawn by their love and their care. And, but yeah, I just, I don't quite know how to. No, I get that. We get that. We felt the same thing. We weren't like, we're going to love bomb them and then they're going to join.

[00:11:59] It was like, we're creating an atmosphere that's appealing for people. And that was also like, I gave them the benefit of the doubt when I felt like people were taking it. I was like, okay, this is what you have to do to ingratiate yourself. And I don't malign people for ingratiating themselves to me. I appreciate the intent most of the time. And I think at that point in time, a lot of them really did love their lives in the 12 tribes. You know, like I think when they said to me things like, you know, we have this wonderful life.

[00:12:26] I think that most of them actually felt that way in the moment. And what year was this? Because I know things got more strict. This was in 99 when I was first meeting them and starting to spend more time. My husband and I would go with his parents to Rutland to their Friday night celebrations. I went with his parents without him for a week in the summer, that summer of 99 to Hyannis. Spent a whole week in the house, just around a lot.

[00:12:56] And so we felt like we were making a really well-informed decision. But it's just, it's impossible. It's impossible to really know what you're getting into until you're there for a while. Until you've sold your house and given away all your possessions and really committed. Exactly. Yeah. Any red flags at this point? Yes. So within the first year, I think Emmett must have been maybe eight, maybe eight or so months old. I did talk about this story in my book.

[00:13:25] I was invited to Rutland by one of the young women there to come and spend the day with her and spend the night. And it was during the week. So my husband was working and, you know, he was fine with me going and spending time at the community. So I drove down to Rutland, just me and Emmett. And we had a really nice day. I spent time with different women. We went on walks to the park.

[00:13:47] We spent a little bit of time helping out a little bit in the kitchen, spent time with families in their bedroom, you know, playing with Emmett and things like that. It was a really pleasant time. So that night I was putting Emmett to bed and I was by myself in this little bedroom and they set up a playpen for Emmett. And I was sitting on the bed and I was nursing him. And there was a lot of other families that lived in this house.

[00:14:14] And I was kind of comforted by hearing the sounds of other people around. And, you know, I could hear children. And like, I liked that. I liked the feeling, you know, that like felt safe. But then all of a sudden I could tell that in the room right next to me that some child was obviously being spanked. I could hear the whacks and the screams and it went on and on. I mean, it felt like it went on for a long time. You know, maybe it was only 45 seconds. I don't know.

[00:14:43] But it's just I remember thinking, when is this going to stop? And I had this feeling of like, I want to get out of here. Like, what is happening? And so the noise, you know, it did stop. And then I could hear people going up and down the hall and doors opening and closing and murmured voices. And then after a few minutes, it was dead quiet. Like there was no noise.

[00:15:06] So I put Emmett down in his playpen and I peeked out the door and I could see down the hallway, sit in front of the door where that had taken place. There was a young teenage girl just like sitting in a chair in the hallway. So I know now that was just somebody like they took the mother away who was disciplining her child. And then this was like a teenage girl that had been put to like listen out for the children, whatever.

[00:15:31] So I remember thinking like, OK, I could just put Emmett in his car seat right now and drive to my in-laws. They're only 20 minutes away. Like, I don't want to be here anymore. You know, am I going to have to do that to my child? And but then I was like, no, I'm not going to make any kind of like more disturbance. I'm just going to go to bed and I'm going to get up and leave right away in the morning. But like five o'clock in the morning or some really early time, there was a knock at my door. And it was one of the women that I had spent quite a bit of time with the day before.

[00:16:01] I really liked her. She's super sweet. And she had a tray and there was a candle on the tray and two cups of hot mate. And she was like, can we talk? Can I come in? And so she came in and she sat on the floor and I sat on the bed and and she just seemed, you know, just really sincere and upset about what had happened. She was like, I I know you heard what went on last night. And we just want to let you know, like our father's heart was not represented.

[00:16:30] We do not condone that type of discipline. Basically, explain the situation to me. Mother has six children. Her husband had been working doubles at the cafe and things just kind of came to a head. She just lost her temper on one of her older children and that she's getting help and whatever. And so, you know, I listened and she was like, I hope, you know, you'll come to breakfast. And and so I did. I stayed. I went to breakfast.

[00:16:58] And then before as I was packing up to leave, the woman who had been disciplining her child came to my door and she was just crying and crying and just apologizing to me. Like, she knows she messed up. She knows she reacted wrong. She's so sorry. She doesn't want to be that way. She needs help. And my heart just went out to her. You know, like that took a lot of courage for her to come and apologize.

[00:17:29] And the way I saw it was like, sure, parents all over the world are losing their tempers and reacting to their kids in the wrong ways. And who else has these safeguards? People there to step in right away to help out. Who else has the humility to just come to a guest and just expose themselves, just like lay themselves out there. And and I just I just gave her a big hug. And I said, I don't know what it's like to have six children. It's OK.

[00:17:58] And that almost ended up initially it was like, I want to get out of here. Like, this is wrong. This is bad. But then it almost like served to draw me even more because I just saw that humility. And now looking back and knowing other things that went on in the household when I did live there, like if I hadn't been there, I don't know that those same set of events would have happened. I don't know that somebody would have stepped in. I'm sure it was like, there's a guest in the house.

[00:18:28] Like, you know. Is it true that those are standard practices, right? Yes. Yes, it is. So they were self-aware enough to know that their practices overtly could be a deterrent for you, right? So they basically were doing damage control on what is normal. To keep her as a guest. Yeah. And what is normal. Well, they did give me a piece of information that they didn't have to give me. The community only condoned a discipline with like the rods that we would make out of basket weaving materials.

[00:18:57] And that was the only thing that you were supposed to use to discipline a child. You weren't supposed to use a belt or a wooden spoon or, you know, whatever other things that people have commonly used. Your hand. You weren't supposed to use your hand. But this woman was using, I think, like a yardstick or ruler. Like it was some other. And they told me this. They told me. That's not condoned. The rod is for discipline. And thinking back, I'm like, oh, they didn't have to tell me that.

[00:19:27] But they did. And I felt like I respected their upfrontness, their honesty about it. Yeah. So it didn't end up deterring me. We actually, a couple came to our house in Burlington a few weeks later and had dinner with us. And just talked to us all about their standards for children and discipline and how it's love. And parents that love their children are going to train them the right way. And this is how our father has taught that we do it.

[00:19:56] And things were always just presented in such a way that was easy for me to swallow at the time. I get that. Hey, Kalti listeners. As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together. And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us. That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self-Publishing Agency, or TSPA.

[00:20:23] Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out, the Self-Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline. You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world. So if you're like us and you have a story or a message that's burning to be told, we highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner. They offer everything you need from expert editing and eye-catching cover design to marketing and distribution strategies that really make a difference.

[00:20:51] They make the entire process seamless and inspiring so you can focus on what matters most, telling your story. Go to theselfpublishingagency.com. That's theselfpublishingagency.com to start your very own publishing journey today. Enjoy.

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[00:21:50] You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit culti, shall we? Before we get into more red flags, can you just set the stage a little bit for our audience who doesn't know much about 12 tribes? What the belief system was? I mean, we know that every Christian offshoot thinks that they are the only path and the only one true path, as does this one. But what was the specific difference in terms of the belief system? And tell us a little bit about Father, about... Gene Spriggs? Yeah, Gene Spriggs. Yes, thank you. Gene.

[00:22:20] Tell us about Gene and the belief that this group held. Well, they started out down in Chattanooga, and they were actually attending, I think it was a Baptist church, you know, him and his wife. And they started meeting people, and he started having these groups in the park, called it Critical Mass. And, you know, it was the 70s, so I think that was just a time where maybe it was just easier to gather up a group of people that wanted to sit in the park and to talk about Jesus and things like that.

[00:22:49] So, I think it started out just simple, and then one of their Bible studies was canceled because of a Super Bowl game, or something along those lines, some sports thing. And so, that's talked about a lot in the group. Like, that was kind of the point where they were like, well, the Super Bowl has nothing to do with Jesus and our purpose, and we're going to separate ourselves from that. So, they kind of became, they called themselves the Vine Christian Community.

[00:23:15] Gene and Marsha opened up their home to a lot of these young people who moved in, and then they started opening up. They wanted to work together, be together, and that's how the Yellow Deli came about. They opened up a deli in Chattanooga. But after a couple years, they ended up leaving the Chattanooga area, and I think some people had family members or other people they knew up in northern Vermont that had farms and were interested.

[00:23:42] And the whole group just kind of migrated up to Island Pond, Vermont, and really took off there. At one point, there were 13 households in the little town of Island Pond, Vermont that were 12 tribes. It just kind of grew from there. But they think of themselves as the new Israel and the beliefs. It's Old Testament and New Testament. So, they just believe that they're fulfilling all the prophecy.

[00:24:07] They're becoming the group that's going to send the gospel out to the four corners of the earth, and then they're going to bring back the return of Jesus, who they call Yahshua. And there's a lot of talk about revelations, and at the end of the age, they're going to send out 144,000 male virgins out to the world to preach the gospel. But the world will be so evil at that point that they're all going to be slain in the street. And it's when the last two are slain, that's when Jesus is going to return.

[00:24:36] And so, the 12 tribes believes that they're the holy people that are going to reign in the new age. They're going to be the rulers of the new age, and then the good people of the world who obeyed their conscience. That's going to comprise the nations, like the righteous people. And then there's the lake of fire for the unjust and filthy people. So, I was drawn at first by that, like, three eternal destinies, because my husband was a Christian, like a Pentecostal born-again Christian.

[00:25:05] He really wanted me to be involved in that and take on those beliefs. But I never, ever could ever believe that somebody would go to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus. Like, that was a big one for me. That was like a lot of our debates, you know, like, what about the people in these remote Chinese villages? But they're good people just working hard, and like, why are they going to go? Why would they go to hell? I just couldn't buy that.

[00:25:27] So, when I heard about the 12 tribes and the three eternal destinies, and that there is, like, a category called the righteous, and those are just the people who obeyed their conscience, I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like, but I didn't realize, like, the snake in the grass is that once you're a part of the 12 tribes, then you know the truth, and then you can no longer ever be a righteous person. Like, if you leave, you're automatically going to the lake of fire. Any children that grow up there knowing the truth, if they ever leave, it's automatic lake of fire.

[00:25:57] So, it's still that same thing, but, you know. Yeah. And they do take, that is like in Revelation, those three categories. So, I, but that made it easier for me to swallow at first. But the community, they adhere to, like, the old traditional festivals, like Yom Kippur, Passover, like, the different festivals that Jesus himself would have honored. They follow those. There's not Christmas and Easter and birthdays and those types of holidays.

[00:26:25] So, it's like a mix of Judaism and Christianity. It's really interesting. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that aspect of it until we started researching. And as a non-religious cultural Jew, having celebrated a lot of those things, but also Christmas with my non-religious Anglican dad. And having doing it, I was like, oh, this could be, I mean, there's an element that I could see as quite festive. Yeah, like the Israeli folk dancing. Yeah, I love Israeli folk dancing. We did that.

[00:26:54] You know, like our children's training groups, it was the Hebrew alphabet. It was Olivet, Gimel, Het, Tet, Zion. Like, our children learned those Hebrew words and we gave our children Hebrew names. Like, there was a lot of that Jewish culture that was in our group. But we believed that in the New Testament and that Jesus, Yahshua, was the Son of God and was going to resurrect and bring about the end of the age. So, it's like a mixture. It's a mixture.

[00:27:24] So, what was Jean's role in it at this point? Did you ever meet him? Oh, yeah. I lived with them in Plymouth when my first daughter was born. His role was, he was the apostle. That's what they called him in the group. He was the apostle. A lot of the teachings and different standards and things that would go out or decisions to buy this building or move to this town came a lot from him. I lived with them for almost a year, right in the same house with them.

[00:27:51] They were treated very different from, like, your average person. Like, they obviously lived a pretty separate life, came and went as they wanted. But I never felt, I don't know, scared of them or anything like that. You know, he came to my room one day with his hands behind his back and was like, hey, I was just at Salvation Army. It was dollar day and your husband needs some pants. And he hands me, like, some, you know, like, and she'd be around the house just kind of cheerful.

[00:28:20] But she didn't work around the house to the extent as the other women. I didn't see her in the kitchen at four in the morning making men's lunches or things like that. But they actually gave my husband his Hebrew name. They were at my daughter's dedication. And volleyball was like a big sport in the community. And I guess Yonek was really impressed that my husband was, like, such a great judge in volleyball. Like, even to the detriment of his own team, like, he'd make a call in favor of the other team.

[00:28:49] And that just really spoke of my husband's true character. And so, during this dedication of my daughter, he gave my husband the Hebrew name Yesherin, which means, like, righteous judge. And then that's what he became. That's what he was called after that. So, I love in your book how you really paint the picture of, like, what the lure was and what was going on for you at the time. Like, it really makes sense why you joined. What was the day-to-day life?

[00:29:19] And early on in your book, you're like, well, what did I sign up for? Because it was a lot more domestic than you'd imagined. Can you give us, like, a day in the life of Tammy during that time? Yeah, so we were expected to get up early enough that we would have time, like, to pray, go for a walk. We had gatherings every morning and every evening. So, what's a gathering? Well, originally, they called these gatherings the sacrifice.

[00:29:47] But they were at a park one day and someone said, we have to get the children home in time for the sacrifice. And then they realized that that didn't sound really good. So, they started calling them the Hebrew word for sacrifice, which is menha. So, the priests of old offered sacrifices morning and evening. And so, the 12 tribes considers them priests on the earth right now, bringing about God's will.

[00:30:14] So, they began having these gatherings, menhas, every morning and every evening. And there would either be a conch shell or, like, a big, long ram's horn. And it was always a man. When the gathering was going to start, if it started at 6 a.m., right? 6 a.m. on the dot, somebody would blow that shofar. Called shofar. Yeah, that's the Hebrew word. They would blow it twice, the different areas of the community, so that everybody could hear it.

[00:30:43] And that was the call for everybody to come for the gathering. So, women, we wore head coverings to the gathering. Baptized women wore head coverings. That was, like, our symbol that, for one, that we were baptized, that we'd given our lives to this purpose, but also that we were, like, in submission. If we were a married woman, it was, like, a sign that we were in submission and unity with our husband.

[00:31:07] As a single woman, it was just your sign that you were submitted to God's will for you, whichever authority you were under in the community. The men, at the beginning, just lifted their hands at the end of the gathering, and that was their symbol of being in unity. So, all the men, like, when it was time to pray, would come into the center and lift their hands above their heads. Only the men. But I was there long enough that different things came in.

[00:31:35] And by the time I left, all men and women wore what we call diadems on our heads to the gatherings, and children, too. Any child that was three or older had to wear their diadem. So, a diadem traditionally was this headband that was worn under a king's crown, because crowns are really heavy, and it could, like, hurt your head. So, it was this band that kings would wear under their crown to protect their heads.

[00:32:02] So, we wore them as a symbol that we were going to be the future rulers. Like, we didn't have the crown yet, so the diadem was preparing us for the crown. And so, we had to wear them over our head coverings as women, or the men just wore them on their heads. And this is every day? Twice a day. This is morning and evening. We gathered twice a day, morning and evening. And so, they were how long each?

[00:32:28] I would say, like, a typical weekday gathering was probably around a half hour, give or take. If Yonik was there, the gatherings were definitely longer when Yonik was there. He was the leader of your group? Gene. His Hebrew name was Yonik. Okay. Well, he's the one that started it. Right. But it's not like he lived everywhere. No, he couldn't. So, yeah. So, the morning would start with that gathering. I had an 18-month-old baby in two gatherings a day.

[00:32:57] And they're expected from babyhood on, you're to be training your children to listen quietly and not be a distraction and not be fidgety and making noise. Stressful nightmare. So, yeah. To do that twice a day for anywhere from, you know, a half hour to 45 minutes was really challenging. So, that's how the day would start. Then it was on to breakfast. There was a woman's schedule. So, maybe it was your breakfast morning.

[00:33:25] Maybe you'd already been out in the kitchen since 5 o'clock in the morning making breakfast for everybody. We typically only had one breakfast morning a week. So, that wasn't like every day. You were out there at 5 in the morning. So, then say it was my lunch day. My husband would leave and I would get Emmett ready and I would be back out in the kitchen as soon as I could because it takes a really long time to make lunch for like 40 or 50 people.

[00:33:52] So, it would take me right up until lunchtime to do whatever tasks I'd been given to do and then I'd lay Emmett down for a nap and then try to get out there and get as much cleanup done before he woke up. I would say cleanup from lunch was usually done by maybe around 2, 2.30. So, you might do breakfast and dinner or breakfast and lunch but you never were doing like lunch and dinner. So, if you did lunch then you'd think like, oh, the rest of the day is free.

[00:34:20] After I get lunch cleanup done but there wasn't really a concept of like free time. Like you were supposed to be gainfully occupied with a productive will. So, as a new person I had a woman that was like my covering and I would go to her and be like, hey, I'm done lunch cleanup. What else needs to be done that day? And there might be like, oh, so and so is sick and her bathroom needs to be done. Can you do this bathroom?

[00:34:46] In a large household like that, there was always something to be done and that's what was expected of you. You were to find the most pressing need. I wasn't supposed to be independent and be like, oh, I did lunch today. You know, I'm going to take off. I'm going to take Emmett to the park. I'll see you guys at the gathering. You just didn't do and you didn't have independent actions like that. How'd they enforce that?

[00:35:10] Say I did just take off and go for a walk, then I would probably be spoken to the next day like, hey, we noticed you were gone. Where did you go? And it's really nice if we are looking out for the most pressing need. And it was like through correction and rebuke kind of formed how you acted. And I have the kind of personality that I don't want to be in trouble and I don't want to draw attention to myself. So anytime I was corrected about anything, I took that on 100%. You were trying to get it right in the group.

[00:35:40] I was trying to get it right. Yeah. So someone would tattle on you, so to speak? That happens. Yes. A lot of spying I noticed in your group. So it was a culture of fear, it sounds like. Right. Right. Yeah. Because you were constantly, whether you realized it or not, somebody was aware of what you were doing.

[00:35:59] Even once I remember being in Cambridge, if I was taking too long to lay my children down for a nap or something, there would be a knock on the door like, hey, you know, the dining room isn't swept yet. Were you going to get back out here to do that? It's like you were expected to constantly be serving about the household. And it wasn't that you couldn't submit a request. Yes.

[00:36:24] The proper thing for me to have done, if I did want to take my children to the park, then I could go to my covering and be like, what do you think about this? You know, I was going to do my chore with my children after their nap. And then I thought maybe we'd go to the park. Like, does that sound good? Or, you know, is there a more pressing need? That's how you would phrase it. And not everyone there was a jerk. So the person might have been like, oh, yeah, that's great. It's a beautiful afternoon. You know, take your children, have a nice time.

[00:36:52] It wasn't like there weren't people like that or that you were always just told, no, go scrub the floor some more. It wasn't that bad. But you also just did not have the freedom to make your own decision about what you were going to do with the hour you had in the afternoon after your children woke up from a nap.

[00:37:11] You know, you had to be it was called just being out of order or having your own mind to just go do what you wanted without connecting with somebody and making sure there wasn't something better you could be doing. God forbid. Otherwise, you'd be dissipating. Dissipation was a word. Dissipation. I never heard that word before. I mean, we talked about like our four year olds dissipating like that. You know, it's just it was just too much. Children were not given any type of independent playtime.

[00:37:40] They always had to be given a will at all times from a really young age. The only question they were supposed to ask us is, what do you want me to do next, Ema? Wow. Wow. Oh, gosh. So many things, so many ways we could go with this. And I do appreciate that your book, it shows the slow burn. Like I think if you've been plopped right into sort of the worst of it, you would have been like, get me out of there immediately.

[00:38:05] But it was a slow burn and the buildup to the most strictest of rules was slow. But at a certain time, probably when I say this to a lot of my guests, I want to like go back in time and rescue you out of your situation. But there was a certain time when it was very strict and very patriarchal and you had no say.

[00:38:27] And, you know, actually it brought back a couple of memories that I'd forgotten about with NXIVM stuff, specifically that you couldn't express something that you really wanted. Like if you were going to enjoy getting a day off to go shopping with another woman in town and getting a little break from cult life, you couldn't be like, oh, me, me, me. You had to pretend that it was something that you could do if it would be helpful so that you'd get the job. We had the same thing in NXIVM. Really? Yeah.

[00:38:52] You weren't like, I had to kind of, if it's something I really wanted, I had to downplay it because I knew if I expressed how much I wanted it, I wouldn't get it. Yeah. There's no striving. Everything was given to us by our father. So we weren't supposed to strive. Like if somebody loved shopping, they had a shopping spirit and probably shouldn't go. Tammy, I definitely have a shopping spirit. Yes, you still do. I still do. The funny thing about me now is I hate shopping now.

[00:39:22] Like I despise it. But there it was just the only little bit of freedom and time where you kind of felt normal and like got away and had a little bit of a break. And kind of got to know another woman outside the real strictness. You get to see another side of that person because the guards kind of came down a little when two of us got away for a little while. It was just different. But yeah, it just had to be looked upon as, well, I'm willing to do this service for the body.

[00:39:52] Not like, okay, like I need this for my own mental sanity. A break from this hectic life that you would have been resisting your portion and you would have definitely not gone shopping if you had expressed that to somebody. For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir. It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:40:19] I narrate the audio version and it's also available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores. And now a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast. Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty. It's a good one. And what were the other rules that you were expected to live by?

[00:40:46] There were a lot of rules around food, around clothing, around ways that we spoke to each other. Music was pretty cut and dry. You know, we weren't supposed to listen to any outside music. Like with the exception of, like in our cafes, they played this kind of like folky, Irish kind of folky stuff. There were like a few different artists that were okay. Or there'd be like a, we had what was called family nights, like date night. No Metallica.

[00:41:15] No Metallica, no. No Metallica. But like somebody gave me this CD and it said anniversaries and family nights on it. And it was a lot of instrumental music by this artist named William Elwood. And to this day, when I listened to him and that music, that was almost like my outlet there. It's still like my children hear it and they're like, oh my God, turn that off. Like they never want to hear it again.

[00:41:35] But somehow to me, it's still kind of like brings me a sense of calm because that was kind of my escape for a long time was just like this one CD of William Elwood music. But yeah, no mainstream music. We weren't supposed to read any mainstream books. No outside media at all was the standard. We weren't supposed to desire an escape. We were supposed to be content with, we were disciples. This was our life's purpose.

[00:42:04] This is as a woman, like being a good wife and a good mother. And that was just supposed to be 100% fulfilling to you. Now, I always felt like, okay, well, what is wrong with something's wrong with me? You know, like I'm just, it's never felt like I wasn't getting there or something. I always have this internal battle going on. Like what's wrong with me? Well, particularly after you have been to college and known otherwise. I was going to ask the same thing.

[00:42:31] I imagine it was pretty, and Vermont's a music scene too, right? I did miss music a lot. There was one time toward the end, I'd been sent with my father-in-law to go to this place in Massachusetts, this like bulk food store. And we were in there waiting for like some bags of rice or something. And I heard Dreams by Fleetwood Mac, you know, just come on the radio. Oh, I remember what I was wearing. I just remember that moment and hearing that song.

[00:43:01] And one of those moments where I felt like I lived in an alternate reality. There was still this reality where Fleetwood Mac dreams could be listened to and enjoyed. You know, it just really created this weird sense in my brain. It was cognitive dissonance. Yes. Cognitive dissonance. Especially because you had grown up in the outside world. Yes. And you had a taste of it. You were always kind of like imagining.

[00:43:26] And I think the book really reflects your inner thoughts of like trying to grasp what you were trying to commit to, but remembering what you could have had. And it was sort of like flashing back and forth. Tell us about when the sort of the patriarchy and the misogyny started to get amped up. What that cognitive dissonance was like. So there came a point where teachings were coming out called Dominant Ima. So Ima was mother, Abba was father. That's what our children called us.

[00:43:54] And I mean, it was always, always the proper order in family was God and then husband and then wife and then children. I joined with that understanding that women submitted to their husbands at weddings. Women give the first kiss and it's called the kiss of submission. They're like vowing to 100% submit to their husband. And so I knew that.

[00:44:19] And whenever there was a wedding or things like that coming up, we would have teachings that would go over it. And like I said, things are presented in a pretty palatable way. Like, yes, the women choose to submit. It's a choice. We're choosing it, but it's the most powerful. We have power in submission. And the men, their promise is to protect us at all costs, even if it came down to sacrificing their own life.

[00:44:48] So if our husbands are willing to die for us, they love us that much, what's the fear entrusting them enough to submit to them? They're not supposed to be these tyrannical overlords just commanding us with these directives and all day long. But just what that means is they do have the final say in things. We're respectful in how we talk to them. We're not argumentative. It makes sense if it was presented that it's supposed to be two-way in this metaphorical structure.

[00:45:18] That's how I took it, the way you described it. Like, yes, I'm going to submit, but I'm being protected. And it's like we're equal in this sort of inequality. This is sort of how I took it in a way. But you also like where it gets icky is when there's a disagreement and you have no say. Right. And the husband just gets to say because he's the husband. Right, yeah. Also, there was a time when men and women having that relationship or that dynamic was the best thing for their survival.

[00:45:47] Those conditions no longer exist. Right. And they're trying to sell that dynamic in a world where those conditions don't exist. And make it modern. Well, also making the outside world so bad that that is what makes these conditions exist. But that's not really what's going on. That's kind of the sales pitch almost to justify it. Right. And we were presented with, we were told, we're all equal in the eyes of God. We're all equal recipients of the Holy Spirit.

[00:46:16] God does not value men more than women. We're equal in value, but we're not equal in function. God has really specific functions for men and women. And that's what we don't tamper with. Really specific roles. The really just traditional roles. The women are the caretakers, the nurturers in charge of the children. That's where this was all going was that teaching dominant Ima. The examples that were given.

[00:46:45] You know, you might have four or five children in your home all day long and your husband's coming home at five. And you might think of that as like, oh, a break for me. Help me take over. I've got to go. You know, but that was wrong. That was wrong. We dominated the children. We made sure that when our husbands come home at five o'clock, the children are under control. We're ready for preparation time, which was the hour before the gathering. So there's the gathering, but then there was always an hour before the gathering that was called preparation time.

[00:47:15] And that was the time that we were preparing, reading something from the Bible, praying. Evenings were a little more structured than mornings, but the women, we were always on. The husband was supposed to be able to come in, pick up the Bible or a teaching or whatever he wanted to teach the family during preparation time. And he should be able to sit there and focus on that where the mother just kept the rule over the children, disciplining everybody, making sure. And the same thing went for the gatherings.

[00:47:44] If you had several children, you were in and out, in and out, in and out, disciplining one after the other, after the other. And it was my husband. He did try to help out with that. So it wasn't just me, but he got spoken to. The oil to the family comes down from the head. You're the head. You need to be in the gathering, and then you pass on that oil to your wife while she is in her role of ruling over the children.

[00:48:08] So it was, yeah, it was a really exhausting position to be in as a mother with a lot of children because it was like, you're it. There's multiple ways that can be abused and used. And we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the discipline of the children. And I know you said at the beginning of your book that your story is your story, and much, quote, worse things happen to other people. And yes, I know about some of those things.

[00:48:36] But even just with what you had to go through, I thought it was incredibly upsetting. Are you okay to talk a little bit about the discipline? Yep. What was the sort of guide about it, and when did you start to feel like it was veering into abuse? Yes. So there's a very thick child training manual in the community, and every Friday morning was child training teaching morning. So this was yet another thing before the gathering. There would be child training teaching that started at 5 or 5.30.

[00:49:05] Then you'd go get your children all ready to come back to the actual gathering. We spent a lot of our time in gatherings. So the child training manual is very specific. That's the only discipline there is, is spanking. There wasn't, we didn't use timeouts, or they didn't have things that we could take away. There was no grounding wouldn't have made sense because, you know, we're going to go anywhere. You're already grounded. So it was like, it was discipline on the first command for every infraction.

[00:49:34] Wrong thoughts, wrong deeds, wrong everything. Facial expressions. And you were supposed to start as soon as you felt like your child could understand the word no. And the child training manual, that went down to like a squirmy six-month-old changing their diaper, and they're trying to crawl away. That you would have, for a baby, you wouldn't have really long, thick rod. You'd have like something tiny and just a couple little whacks on their bottom to get their attention

[00:50:04] and teach them to be still during their diaper change. And restraint. I can't say that spanking was the only thing. Oh, restraint, I think, was worse. So when you restrained a child that was having a tantrum, I mean, you held their arms down. You might put their feet between your legs and cover their mouths, and they could not move. And I remember their noses would be running, and they'd be screaming.

[00:50:30] So you'd have to take your hand away long enough that they could go, and then you'd cover again. And like, sometimes I saw my own children, other people's children. Sometimes they would completely pass out during restraint sessions. And we were taught that if that happened, that if a child fell asleep, and they weren't cleansed of their bad conscience, that when they woke up, you just started right back into it. Because they needed to submit to you.

[00:51:00] They needed to surrender. Anytime you did not bring a child to complete surrender and break their will, you were just strengthening their will. And then the next battle was going to be even worse. Yes. So I think the restraint piece was worse than some of the spankings with the rod. And I think in the early 90s or mid-90s, I would hear stories of during that time that the discipline was way worse, that it wasn't just on the bottom or on the hand,

[00:51:30] but that it would be like on the soles of the feet or the thighs or the back. By the time I was around that kind of discipline, I never saw that happen. I think that there were times where kids were like locked in their bedrooms until they confessed to something. And I didn't really see that happen. So there were changes that happened over the years. I think it was way worse than it was when I came on.

[00:51:58] Because I want to think when I came in, if I had seen that kind of stuff, I want to think I would have fled from it. But the way that we were taught was you're always in control. And that's why discipline on the first command is a good thing. Because the reason that people lose it and beat their kids is that it's the 10th time you've told your child to do something. The first time you tell your child to do something, you're not all worked up yet.

[00:52:27] The first time you say, hey, I want you to fold these clothes and put them away. You're fine. The second time you might be a little like, hey, did you hear me? I want you to get these clothes put away. Each additional time that you give the direction, you're going to be a little bit more ramped up because your child's not listening. So by the 10th time, you're going to be screaming and yelling and reacting to them. So the way to not have that happen is discipline on the first command.

[00:52:56] You give the command one time in a normal voice, hey, I want you to fold your laundry. You make sure they respond to you. Yes, Seema. You go about your thing. You check back. They haven't folded the laundry. Okay, you did not fold your laundry. I'm going to discipline you. And you're not in a place at that moment where your discipline is going to be harsh and abusive because you haven't allowed it to get to that. So discipline was always supposed to be done, calm, in control, no yelling.

[00:53:26] And then afterwards, you were supposed to, again, tell the child, do you understand why I disciplined you? And then the child was supposed to apologize. I'm sorry that I didn't fold my laundry. And then you say, I forgive you. And then you hug. And then you've restored that connection. Like they taught that disobedience was the child breaking the connection with the parents. And no child's happy in that place. The child wants connection, but they've chosen to break the connection by not obeying.

[00:53:56] So the way to restore that connection is that discipline and forgiveness. And then you're connected again. And then you try again. Okay, now go fold your laundry. And you're supposed to be 100% consistent with that in any aspect of what a child could do wrong. And that's training them. That was supposed to train them up that they would have self-control, that they would respect your word,

[00:54:23] that by the time your child is literally says, by the time your child is 12 or 13, there should be little to no more confrontation. Or by that time, the child has been trained to be obedient and respectful. But you've got to be 100% consistent. I like the consistent calmness. I like the repairing of the rupture part. But it's so hard to, like the hitting part, obviously.

[00:54:51] And I know you don't feel this way now. But that's just so hard to, as the mom of two boys who... Don't listen. Don't listen. I mean, I get it, too. Like, I've been at my wits end in many occasions. But no, I just... It's so hard to hear about. It was too much. Yeah. Because it was all day long. All day long. I couldn't keep track of how many spankings my kids got in a day. Yeah. And they had to bend over and willingly receive it.

[00:55:18] And not receiving their discipline, resisting it, that was another offense. So then they would need the discipline for whatever infraction had happened. And then they'd also need to be disciplined for resisting you and not receiving it. They weren't supposed to be screaming and fighting back. And they were supposed to quietly bend over and receive their discipline. Oh, man. I know that there's other stories and we can talk about that towards the end.

[00:55:48] And they know that there's been lawsuits and whatnot. Not... No, the situation in Germany, too. Wasn't there something in Germany in 84 where... No, that was Island Pond in 84. That was the raid where children were taken under allegations of abuse. But then they were returned because the judge ruled that it had not gone down. And, you know, it was unconstitutional. The way they literally broke into houses and took children.

[00:56:13] And then in 2013, the community in Germany was raided and children were taken because corporal punishment is illegal in a lot of European countries. So the 12 tribes have had to move around Europe a bit, do this, like, shuffle. Like, they had to get out of France. They had to get out of Germany. So they've gone to, like, the Czech Republic and other places where corporal punishment is still legal. Okay. So life is getting tougher and tougher.

[00:56:40] And we're going to pause here and come back next week and hear all about the final straws that caused you to finally escape and how you've been healing. See you next time. If you like the show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes. Cults are commonplace now, and we're looking at them all, and every little bit helps. Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode. Okay, everybody.

[00:57:09] We are going to pause there and come back in a few days on Thursday. Our new scheduling here on ALBC for part two with Tammy on the 12 tribes. A Little Bit Culti is a Trace 120 production.

[00:57:38] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Templtardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios. And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. We'll be right back.