International School of Temple Arts (ISTA): Two Insiders Expose Consent, Control, and Cult Dynamics (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:28] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult. And that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

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[00:02:26] Because guess what, Nippy? What, Sarah? I think, and we don't know for sure who, but somebody who has not read the book keeps going in and giving it one star. There's no name. Maybe it's just the title. No comments. Maybe they're just rating the title. I mean, like, that's a one star title. Maybe, but. Don't care. We've had some also great reviews, so we really appreciate those. Anyway, we have an episode today that is pretty heavy, actually, but it's very important.

[00:02:51] Today we're talking with Cara Cardoni and Lina, speaking anonymously, so not her real name, two survivors who got pulled into the International School of Temple Arts, or ISTA. Both women share how this organization harmed countless women through sexualized retreats and unchecked power dynamics. In this episode, Cara and Lina unpacked what they thought they were signing up for with ISTA. The moment they realized it was harming people, why Cara tried reforming it through meditation,

[00:03:19] and what finally showed her that those efforts had failed. They also share their hopes for exposing these harms. You may remember we talked about this group briefly with Anka Richter from her book Cult Trip, and she mentions ISTA in that book, and we talked about it a bit with her, but I remember when I heard about it, I was like, oh my God, this is like NXIVM with all the different ranks and levels and whatnot, but it's a fascinating... And international. International and still thriving. So, yeah, Cara...

[00:03:45] Hosts the Fool's Gold Discernment in the Age of Grift podcast, where she talks with survivors, journalists, researchers, and lawyers about spiritual seeking, coercive control, and the dream of accountability after attending three ISTA retreats. She co-founded 3SC, Safer Sex Positive and Spiritual Communities, to push for safer sex positive spiritual communities. She spent two years in meditated talks with ISTA leadership, and now works as a leadership coach, helping people share power rather than abuse it.

[00:04:15] Lena's story of entanglement and awakening is powerfully told in the Cut article, We All Have Predators Inside Us. We'll put that in our show notes. We highly recommend reading this article for a fuller, bigger picture, as we made a concerted effort to not re-traumatize. Lena, we are not therapists. We did not want to unpack all the details, and this is probably a good time to mention this is a major trigger warning for this episode. Please listen with care. And if you're considering an ISTA retreat, these women have a clear message.

[00:04:44] ISTA preys on seekers and disproportionately hurts women. Let us know what you think of the episode. Here's part one with Kara and Lena.

[00:05:11] Kara and Lena, welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Hi. Hi. This has been a long time coming. As you know, we've attempted to cover this before. It didn't work out. And we appreciate you both coming on the podcast to tell us about ISTA, not to be confused with ICSA, which we'll talk about later. Totally different. Two totally different things. Kara, I'm going to see you this summer in San Diego for the ICSA conference. Excited to meet in person. Lena, we've never met before.

[00:05:39] We were all talking before we started recording this, just how challenging it is to talk about these types of groups that have, and also trigger warning to our audience. This is really important. This might be a little upsetting for people. It's upsetting for us to talk about. It's incredibly challenging to ask people like yourselves to come forward and share your stories. And I know that it's mixed with so much, I don't even know. We'll find out. The trauma of it all, the pain, the embarrassment, shame. I don't know what it is for you.

[00:06:08] I know I certainly have had to work through that in my own way. So we're going to just take this one slow. It's a little delicate. We'll see where it goes. Our goal is for you to shine light on this group and why it's problematic, cultic, abusive. We'll find out. So Sarah, you were the first person that I contacted when I woke up from a cult, several cults. And then I spent every morning for a whole year going to a coffee place near my house,

[00:06:39] getting myself breakfast with a coffee and listen to every of your A Little Bit Culty episode. Oh, wow. Starting from the very first one, going up the Spotify list. Wow. And it helped me to have the structure and it helped me to deconstruct. And it kind of kept me for a whole year and a half to stay sane because I thought that I'm losing my mind. I thought that I will not survive this. This was so scary.

[00:07:07] I have watched The Vow four times. One time when I was still indoctrinated in a cult. And then the time that I was leaving the cult, I was re-watching it with another friend of mine who was also leaving the cult. And then once I left the cult, I watched The Vow and I noticed how different I relate to you as the survivors and how different I related to the leadership.

[00:07:33] Because when I was in the cult, when I was indoctrinated, I did not see the things that I saw afterwards as manipulation tactics. I felt empathy with the abuser. That was the... Yeah. And I was very suspicious about it. So after leaving the cult, you guys were the first ones that I contacted and then listened to the Little Bit Culty. And then I followed the information on your website, Sarah. And then I found Mark Vincente.

[00:08:02] And then I just went down the whole anti-cult stuff. So thank you. Just, you know, you said you're not sure what you're doing this for. So I just wanted to thank you for doing this. Oh, that's amazing. So let's... That's great to know. Let's pay it forward to other people who will be finding us and hopefully listening to Little Bit Culty over breakfast. Well, that's great to hear. Thank you for sharing that. I hope that we were helpful. It sounds like we were. I don't know your real name. So you'll have to tell me later so I can find our communication.

[00:08:31] But I hope that it was helpful for you at the time. It was. Good. Cara. Yes. Let's start with you. Let's set the stage. For people who don't know anything about ISTA, and we certainly have learned a lot in prepping this episode, tell us a little bit about who you are, what you were looking for at the time. How did you hear about it? Give us like, you know, the cliff notes about... What was the sales pitch? Yeah. What was the sales pitch? How did you hear about it? Yeah. Yeah. So I had never heard of the International School of Temple Arts a few years ago.

[00:09:00] And I kind of had that perfect setup where the end of COVID, I had a breakup with the end of a year-long COVID relationship that was really difficult. And so at the beginning of 21, I was like, well, this is my chance to go into like healing. And I found a class called Emotional and Sexual Intimacy that was online.

[00:09:28] It was taught by a gal who had taught at the same course at Stanford. So I had a lot of confidence and it was an amazing class. And at the same time, there was a huge group of people who were attending and we did breakout rooms and we did, you know, different getting togethers. And in one of those chats that came up, someone mentioned ISTA.

[00:09:52] And they were talking about how amazing it is and that it was where they had learned the best intimacy skills and consent. And so I got curious and I looked them up. Really glossy, sexy, website, happy, beautiful, hippie-ish, festival-ish, you know, people.

[00:10:17] And the retreat was called the Sexual Shamanic Spiritual Experience. It sounded like edgy and wild and they were going to have a session in April of 2021 near my home in Northern California. So I sent the link to my bestie and I said, should we go do this? She was like, yeah, this sounds crazy. Let's go do it.

[00:10:47] And so I went to level one and I really loved it. I mean, we had been on lockdown. It was a really large group, like 70 people approximately. Things that I was looking at that I thought made it different were there were three facilitators for each training. There were two women in my case and a man. And I projected that was going to make it safe. Not a helpful assumption.

[00:11:18] But it was really fun. I have a theater background. I like to play all out. I liked pushing my edge. So for me, it really scratched a lot of itches. And I bought into their language and their frameworks pretty early. I noticed that my critical thinking was disarmed early in the process.

[00:11:45] And I really thought, this is amazing. These facilitators, they get to sit on this beautiful couch. They have assistants taking care of them. They, at the time, had an agreement that facilitators could be involved sexually with students, with participants. I didn't know that before going to the training. It was the first evening. We're sitting in a circle.

[00:12:15] We're going through their 14 agreements that set the stage. And they spring on you. We're different than other organizations. In ours, we don't want to hide the fact that often teachers and students and facilitators have affairs. So instead, we're doing it in the open.

[00:12:39] And so if a student wants to have a sexual interaction with a facilitator, they bring it to the facilitation group. They evaluate it and decide if that's a good idea. And then it can proceed. Wow. It was shocking, but it's in the middle of 14 agreements. And everybody else is saying, I agree.

[00:13:04] And I think understanding the pressure of a large group just socially, right? We talk about how hard it is to stand out, how hard it is to disagree. You've just paid $2,500, taken a week off of work. And so there's an attachment to making it work as part of what I notice in retrospect. So I had a breakup. I was in a liminal, in-between state. I was vulnerable.

[00:13:34] I was looking for healing and connection. The website's all about love and freedom and empowerment. So I thought that's what I was really there for. Did you feel that the facilitators were predatory in that regard? Because it seems to me, if I was a sexual predator, that's like, oh. I feel like we're going to get to that part. Yeah. Yeah, but you weren't picking up on that at the beginning, I'm guessing. I didn't clock it. You know how it is with red flags.

[00:14:02] Like some of them you notice at the time, and then others, you're just like, oh, I kind of clocked that, but I put it back on the shelf and didn't examine it. You know, a lot of it's like not slowing down enough. And the training itself has a lot of really intense revelatory practices. And so I assumed everyone was there with good intent, right? I assumed that these facilitators were trustworthy.

[00:14:31] And I think now, no, it was built by a predator. It attracts and protects predators. And there's even students that come that are predators. Right. And I was really naive and idealistic about that at the time. More than those 14 points were kind of sprung upon you right before it started. Not before you arrived. So it depends. They're very decentralized. And so some facilitators would send out the agreements. Some didn't.

[00:15:01] Some you sign it electronically in advance. Some didn't. But I don't remember seeing that before getting in the room. Mm-hmm. Is there anything else about the agreements that we need to know to understand some of the sort of rules at ICSA? Or like, is there anything that's relevant? I mean, a lot of them are standard things that, you know, we run into take 100% responsibility for the nature of your experience.

[00:15:27] And so that one, of course, immediately positions you to think everything's your fault. Right. And, you know, so there's that one. What are some of the other big ones? Do you remember, Lina? No, I agree to breathe, to be present. And I think at some point it was not to leave the room when intensity happens. That was the earliest, earlier version. No gossiping. Go directly to the person who you have an issue with.

[00:15:57] So right there, right, we're not able to talk to each other about things happening and being told, go talk to that person. There was also an interesting one that was like, allow people to have their experience. So don't go hand someone tissues. Don't go give them a hug because they're crying unless they ask. So the other part was you need to ask clearly for your needs to be met.

[00:16:25] And so you have a real dampening of empathy and a disconnection from each other. Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion, is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research.

[00:16:53] Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups and how to avoid, escape, or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go-to resource, this is it. Available now on Amazon in print and as an e-book for Kindle. And yes, the audiobook is coming soon, narrated by us. Just search A Little Bit Culty and grab your copy. Do it. Thanks, everybody.

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[00:20:17] It was like frowned upon to go comfort somebody after they had a big emotional awareness. It's like, let them do their thing. And yeah, I agree. I totally think that's to like dampen the humanity of it all and like caring of each other. It's hard to not relate these things. Okay, I want to know more about what was good about it. But before we do, Lina, will you share with us how you heard about ISTA? And what was your first few days like? What was the hook for you? So for me, it started a lot earlier.

[00:20:44] The first time I heard about ISTA, I think it was 2014 or 2015. I was 20-something year old, just moved to a new city to study abroad and live in Berlin in Germany. Like I was bored. I was alone. I was desperate for novelty, excitement, learning about new cultures. I, after a year and a half, I dropped out from my master's studies.

[00:21:13] I started to explore these different subcultures in Berlin. Berlin is like a melting pot. It's like everything is there. And I was just sort of absorbing the diversity, cultural diversity. And then I got recruited to another cult. It's a sort of psychotherapeutic cult, which is probably another episode. We could do another episode on this because that is my primary cult that I got recruited.

[00:21:43] And then I spent nine years in it. Can you say the name of it or is that top secret? It's not top secret. I think that if I'm going to say the name, then people will click it because I'm one of the very few people from that cult who joined ISTA. So then people at ISTA might. And then I started a new relationship. And me and my partner at the time, I was like 24, 25 years old. And I was like, I don't want to be monogamous. I want to try this new thing that's called polyamory.

[00:22:13] But we don't know anybody else who's polyamorous. So let's find some guidance. And there was this guru guy in our favorite bar, chai bar in Berlin, teaching about polyamorous relationship and tantra. His name is Nadav Or. He's an Israeli who has done ISTA. I think he said at the time he did, he has done level one. He's a cult of his own. Me, young and naive.

[00:22:40] I believed everything, me and my partner who was older, he was 32 at the time, I think. We believed everything he was saying and we got enrolled into his courses. At the time, I also quit my job because I wanted to try this experiment to live without money. So I thought, how about I organize workshops for you and attend those workshops that you're leading? So that was the little exchange.

[00:23:05] So basically, I have enrolled all my friends, like the newest friends into the cults that I got in because of this work exchange that I had with them, with the gurus. Long story short, ISTA was very expensive. I was living without money at the time, doing this experiment. So I was not doing anything with ISTA. I just knew that ISTA was presented like the Harvard of sacred sexuality.

[00:23:33] Like when you do all these workshops and retreats and then you go to the masters, right, to live with them and learn from them. So ISTA was the place that you do when you feel ready to advance in such a, you know, significant way. So that was like the cherry on top for me that was presented.

[00:23:52] And so I did my thing and traveled around and got very successful being the, you know, similar like you, Sarah, in NXIVM. I got, I was that person for that psychotherapy cult. I was very successful at it. I started a huge community in Berlin and in Europe with it.

[00:24:13] And then when I started to make money, which was around 2021, I moved back to my, to my old country where I came to live to Berlin before. And this is where my cult psychotherapist and my story of events are on total opposite spectrums.

[00:24:33] How my psychotherapists evaluate my, my state with which I joined ISTA and how I evaluate my state to which I joined ISTA are very different. So I'm going to tell you mine. I thought I'm finally making money. I am bored. This psychotherapy cult is just the same. Traveling every few times a month to lead those weekend workshops and long week retreats and eight days. And then I'm like, I want something. I'm not growing.

[00:25:02] I'm not evolving. I want something like, I feel like I'm ready. I can set boundaries. I have done dozens of similar retreats like ISTA. I've was part of the sex positive community in Berlin. Attended, you know, parties with very respectful people. It was just like, I felt like it's time for something like the Harvard of the overall. And so I went to my first ISTA.

[00:25:28] It was in 2021 in Croatia on this beautiful island of Split. Yeah. I traveled there. I met people. It was gorgeous. All of the exercises that were presented there, except for Haka that was presented for us to do. I knew already I've done those exercises because ISTA says that they don't guard the tools, right? You can take the tools and bring it to the world, but give credit.

[00:25:58] So like I've done those tools in different events already. Do you mind giving some examples of like what kind of exercises? If it's too graphic or personal, what kind of things are you doing and what did it feel like if you feel comfortable sharing? I mean, I think starting with the very first exercise. So you arrive, you do the agreements, and then you group up for what's called horse and rider.

[00:26:25] And each of the facilitators, at least in my case, two facilitators would do the demonstration, which they call a transmission. So the horse and rider, the facilitator walks out and they're like, okay, your body is the horse. Your mind is the rider. And so we're going to have a conversation between your mind and your body. And as they're doing that, they're taking their clothes off. So by the end of their exploration, they're naked.

[00:26:55] And there's this sense of reconciliation. Like when I did it, I was like, oh, my mind is always judging my body. Why are you hungry all the time? Why aren't you skinnier? Why do you need all this care and maintenance? And then when my body spoke, it was like, your thoughts are very silly. I'm an embodied creature. I have my own needs. I'm beautiful. I'm perfect.

[00:27:23] And so there's this process. They do it first, and then you're broken into small groups. And of course, they say you have consent to leave your clothes on. Like, you don't have to do that. But they've already modeled it. And there was in my mind the thought of like, well, I'm all in. I want the full experience. But it's also really psychologically, emotionally stressful. Though I wouldn't have said it at the time.

[00:27:52] In retrospect, I'm like, oh, that was part of the energy that gets cultivated. And part, I think, of taking you out of your mind and critical thinking. Because you're having these really intense internal battles. And you're watching other people do that. And that's day one. Like, that's the first evening. Right. That's like our NXM of the first thing we ask people when they introduce themselves on day one is like, are you a one or a ten? One being I'm here to watch.

[00:28:22] Ten being like, I'm here to play full out. And I'm like, I'm an 11. You know, there's always that person. So I'm curious, Lina, did you have a similar experience? You said you'd done a lot of the exercises except for haka. What's haka? Haka? Yeah. So haka is, it's the Maori tradition. So basically one of the facilitators, Niten, he's from France. He has appropriated the haka that he learned somewhere from another white dude.

[00:28:51] And then he started teaching it to us. It was something for like embody your masculine something. I did not like it. I did not like Niten at all. Anyway, so this is one of the, but we did it like in the middle of the retreat. One of the other exercise that we do is the emotional release tools. Everybody copies them. It's everywhere. At least in Berlin, if you go to some places, they're going to be like, let's do some emotional release tools.

[00:29:19] And those are like seven, I think, or eight exercises to where you do primal screaming, punching pillows. Oh, yeah. Warner Earhart had that. Yeah. So it's from there. It's from Scientology, probably from somewhere, but from Esalen. So that's where they're saying it. And Gestalt therapy. Gestalt therapy. I think, yeah, originally. And with those seven emotional release tools, that's like the first day. So you've come the night before, now your first full day.

[00:29:48] And in my case, there were 70 people in the room. They said, we're going to teach you these tools and we want you to use them throughout the retreat. So you might have other tools you've used, but we really want you while you're here to use these tools. So they go from, you know, hand screaming, wailing and crying, tantruming. But the one that was the most confronting was called pillow thrusting.

[00:30:16] And you basically put a pillow on your mat and you're kind of fucking it as an emotional release. And, you know, they're playing the soaring music, right? Soundtracks of intense crescendo. And you've got a room of like 70 people who are crying, screaming, tantruming. Super overwhelming.

[00:30:40] And I mean, I think I kind of started changing consciousness, awareness, and getting kind of high on that stress energy that happens. And having that judgmental-ness of like, oh, I don't think that person over there is like going full out, but I am.

[00:31:02] And so a little bit of that cheerleader, performance, get the A, energy, you know, came out in me. Can we address the names of these things? Horse and rider and pillow thrusting. Do you think that's like strategic in terms of like, they're pretty, I don't know. To me, those would be like terms that I feel like could use maybe a little bit more sophistication if they're designed to help us. They seem kind of like almost punitive in a way of like getting you to start.

[00:31:32] I don't think they're by accident, I guess is what I'm driving at. I think you're so right, Nippy. I think I recently just made a whole glossary of ISTA talk or ISTA terms. Language isn't an accident, I guess is what I'm driving at. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that a lot of the language, they serve at different levels, right? So one is to kind of prepare you to take all the responsibility and there's different language that comes up.

[00:31:58] And things that kind of prepare you to give access to your body or like it just keeps lowering your defenses, right? It's like they went to a frat house and said, hey guys, name these things for us. Something like that. They're very like... And that's so interesting because I got challenged by a friend who was asking like, well, why did you go? And I said love and transformation. He said, well, I think you went for sex. And I was like, I really don't think that's true.

[00:32:28] I mean, honestly, I can have sex anywhere. Like that's not hard as a woman to procure. It was a dude. And when I showed him the website and I showed him the stuff, he was like, I don't care about all these words. All I see are sexy women and people touching. And he's like, I absolutely see sex. I would go for sex. And so that was a really interesting differentiation about how we were processing the website and the marketing.

[00:32:58] Well, it's another conversation, but I think for the most part, women can get sex, I think, a little bit easier than men, generally speaking. That's a big generalization. So I don't think... And women, I don't think... I'm not going to speak for women, but I think generally they don't go to retreats for that. But I think a man would look at that and go, yeah, that looks like a place I might get laid. Yeah, 100%. For sure. For sure. Especially if you're going there and you're going to be open and you're going to do horse and rider and pillow thrusting. It certainly seems like a place where it might happen.

[00:33:27] Anyway, I digress. But I don't think language is ever by accident. And the thing that I'm most sensitive to getting out of our situation was how language is used and manipulated and never an accident. And it's insidious and it pulls on a lot of new age tropes, right? They're taking things from Osho. They're taking things from basically Theosophy, Blavatsky, going way back in terms of some of the ideology.

[00:33:54] And I grew up in San Francisco, in California, like home of many cults and cultic thinking. And so I felt very primed for ISTA. And so even as they pushed the envelope on that, it was like already ideas, right? That were kind of in the zeitgeist, in the culture. So that's priming also. Even cult podcasts need sponsors. Check out these must-haves.

[00:34:33] Thank you, sponsors. We couldn't do it without you. Now let's get back to the show. What's rumbling around in my head, and this has been a sticking point for me throughout our five years doing a little bit culty, is like how do you enter a space where you're there to learn and grow and you want to expand your relationship to something? In this case, it's sexuality. In our case, it was success and our self-relationship to ourselves. How do you expand that and give authority to somebody else?

[00:35:03] And like, I don't know. I didn't like help yourself. How do you protect yourself? How do you grow and protect yourself and not have like, it's like you're saying I want to expand my boundaries, but you can't have your boundaries crossed. I just don't like, I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. Well, the discrepancy is right away that I would say is like, if I were to go to a trainer to train me physically, I can look at the trainer and say, this guy knows what he's talking about. Because there's actual physical evidence that this person, maybe he can reproduce it in other people.

[00:35:33] And, but with sexual healing, like that would get me to do the drills and the weights that he would get me to do. Because there's forensics, but sexual healing, I can't look at that guy. And say you're sexually healed. And it's abstract. I can't logically prove it. And so you're handing over. So then the exercises are, okay, I'll take your word for it. Kind of. So. Yeah. But they seem so free. Like there's such like,

[00:35:59] they have like the glow or the charisma and the confidence, right? Which I wouldn't have seen as overconfidence. It's just confidence. I mean, ISTA is the largest neotrantic organization in the world. They have retreats in 50 countries. These facilitators fly around the world, drop in for a week.

[00:36:23] They have officially been incorporated since 2019, but they started much sooner than that and have roots going back to Sedona, where they started by Robert Nichols, who goes by Bob Ades.

[00:36:38] And so I think having the glossiness, the getting the recommendation from someone in that class, and then realizing that how big they are, there is kind of this assumption that because they're big, they're safe. And they look very successful. And so the marketing really, really is. The marketing and the credibility is your forensics. Yeah.

[00:37:04] And it's an international school, duh, for temple arts. Duh. There's no sex in it. It's temple arts. Right. Temple arts. Temple arts. Okay. So before we get into, like, all the red flags, and I know it's hard to kind of go back there, but is there anything else that you want to share that really hooked you that was good? Like, was it community?

[00:37:28] Was it, you know, what were some of the awarenesses you maybe had about yourself or your sexuality that you might want to share that would help people understand, like, why, you know, stuck around? I'll say it's, you know, they call themselves a mystery school. So you don't know what's coming. And they spring it on you, like, kind of, you know, right before it happens. So I really liked the intensity. I liked the false intimacy. I thought I was making friends.

[00:37:57] I thought I was becoming part of a community, the tribe. And there's, like, that part that kind of, you know, wants to be in the inside, in the in group. And I also had an attachment that, oh, this is amazing.

[00:38:14] These people fly around the world, make $10,000, $20,000 for a week of healing the world by reducing sexual shame and making the world a better place and sleeping with who they want. And so I had that attachment that, oh, my God, I could do this. I'm a leadership coach. I'm bored with, you know, kind of just doing business stuff. I'm interested in sexual energy, Eros.

[00:38:43] And so I was already from that first one looking at, like, oh, how could I possibly do this? It's sexy. And that put me in a certain mindset, right? Pulled away the criticism. And the thing is, like, it escalates.

[00:39:00] You know, if we're starting with horse and rider, you find out after day two or three, they're, you know, you're doing these sharing circles where all the men are coming and sharing their histories of trauma or their wounding. And the women are holding the space and the women do their sharing and the men are holding the space. And after that, which is beautiful, right?

[00:39:29] There was this sense of connection and revelation. But I got to say it escalates to what they call sacred spot where you're, they'll say that the sacred spot can be anywhere. But when they do the demonstrations, the sacred spot is in your vagina or in your anus. And then you're told you're going to be randomly paired with someone to do this exercise. And so you don't know who your partner is.

[00:39:59] Yeah. And so I remember we were given our little tokens. We chose a token and then you match with someone. And they tell you when you match with your person, say, I'm so glad it's you. What? So regardless of, yeah, they're like, when you see your person, you say, I'm so glad it's you. The universe brought you together. There's a reason that this is the person.

[00:40:28] And of course, you're completely can consent or not consent. And I remember being in the line and being super anxious because there were people there I did not want to spread my legs for or have touched me. And I also wanted to get the most out of the experience and go the furthest. So I was incredibly anxious. And one of the facilitators, a woman said, oh, all you women, it looks like you're very nervous. You don't need to be nervous.

[00:40:55] I would let any man here perform sacred spot on me. So then I felt ashamed. Right. But it's all about consent. So it's very cloudy, right? There's the thing we say and the thing we do and they don't align. There's not integrity. I'm just like flashing back to my time in NXIVM and like some of the people I would not want to be paired with just to have a conversation, just to do an exercise about like goals.

[00:41:23] And I'm like, I can't even imagine this. It also reminds me a little bit of some of the exercises that they did in One Taste, which I'm sure you've heard about since. And anyway, we can link to that episode. But just before we go any further, I just have a question. A word you used twice when you said, I had an attachment about. I had an attachment that. Is that also ISTA language or is that something else? No? No, I think just more noticing kind of my Buddhism-like attachments, the root of suffering.

[00:41:53] And I noticed I crossed over like I cared versus having that spaciousness. Yeah. Okay. The reason I asked is that word was used in NXIVM also from a Buddhist sort of lineage. And I wanted to just bring it up because I feel like that's a term that can be used for you. And you tell me if this is accurate. I'm not saying this is true or not. You tell me of like almost overtaking responsibility. Like you had an attachment.

[00:42:21] This is like, like you had that. Like when I hear you talk, I'm like, you put things together. That's an expectation based on what they're presenting. Versus when I hear you say like, I have an attachment. It's like you're taking more responsibility than you need to. I don't know. I really appreciate you saying that because I feel, you know, my default has been to, you know, like they teach you. It's all your fault. It's all your responsibility. And I'm constantly finding little places where I turn on myself.

[00:42:47] So I really appreciate you naming that because it's a really deep habit. It's totally. I have it too. I think one thing too, it took me a while to put this in perspective and say these words. You're a victim of a crime. So once you're able to see that you're a victim of a crime, it delineated it for me. Someone committed a crime on you. Yeah. Full stop. Yeah. There's things that set that up.

[00:43:12] Like they teach the Cartman drama triangle where there's, you know, victim, perpetrator and hero. And they basically position it like if you're any of those, then you're in the wrong place. So especially if you're a victim, you've cast someone as the perpetrator and you're waiting for your hero or you're being a hero to go rescue someone. And really they need to rescue themselves.

[00:43:41] So they really misuse it. Like if you actually look at the origins of it, it is being twisted, which is so much of what they do, right? Is they're influencing and twisting and misusing. It's like so many of these tools are great tools and they use them against you. Totally. Like, Cara, you can totally own like, hey, I saw that and I was drawn to it and that was exciting to me.

[00:44:09] And like, but also they dangled something as a lure, you know what I mean? So it's like you got to find the balance, right? Like attachment just feels so like I own that I had an attachment to being a certain way. Like, fuck you. You tricked me. They tricked you. Like, that's why I want to say they tricked you. You know, they tricked you. So that's, it could be both. It's not one or the other. Anyway, Lena had her hand up and I want to make sure we say yes. So I do want to say that the attachment is a taboo word.

[00:44:37] If you're attached, then you're in control, which is inherently a bad thing. You need to live out of control. Like you need to be free. Exactly. No attachments. If you're attached, then you need to meditate it away. You need to use the tools to kind of, you know, to find yourself detached. Detached is the normal way to. Yeah. The goal. Exactly. And another way how I think, you know, the psychological suffering aspect of it.

[00:45:05] People who I imagine, I myself and maybe others who go to these retreats, we want psychological suffering to be taken away. We want the relief. And one of the ways is the, you know, using the emotional release tools gives the relief. There's another exercise that's called, I don't know what it's called, but it's basically imagining that you, your spine is your sword. And then you take your sword and you chop the head of the other person as like chopping

[00:45:34] their mind off so that they would stop judging. If you notice that you're stuck in your mind as the, you know, as they call, we all know what that means. Being stuck in your mind means that you're like, you're having critical thought form. You can ask someone to take their, whatever the imaginary sword and just chop it off. So you don't have to think because thinking stops you from experiencing. And when you're not experiencing, then you're not present. Then you're not breathing. You're not, you know, you're not taking in what's happening in the room.

[00:46:03] That's by design to stop any kind of critical thought. And that's the goal. And I was very good at it. I was, I'm the, I was like the, even, you know, it's hilarious, but it's like in my little morning pods, this group conversations I shared, I said, like, I'm such a good cult member. Like, I just noticed I'm so good at it. I can already expect what the leadership wants me to do. And I am already doing it. I'm so good at it. And I was concerned.

[00:46:33] I shared as a concern. It was like, what's wrong with me that I'm such a good, like I can execute any kind of command. I'm very obedient. And also at the, upon arrival to the retreat, they said, you know, we want you to limit your contact with the outside because that usually can impede your journey here. So we want you to focus on the people here and focus on your own process and, you know, stay here.

[00:47:00] Don't reach out to, you know, to your outside, like do all your business before the retreat and then you can plug in back after the retreat. And I met, there was this dog that would, there was a man who was walking his dog on the beach while I was in Croatia. And I've, I like, I was so fascinated by the dog and the dog's name was Lina, by the way. And Ania was the one actually who suggested like the, okay, so I'm jumping here, but the

[00:47:28] name Lina was not my own invention. So there was a dog, Lina running on the, so I connected with the owner over the dog and I would do the, I was participating at this training and during breaks, I would go and walk the dog together with the guy. We were just talking. And after coming back to the room was this like a conference hall that's all covered with curtains.

[00:47:54] And, you know, there's an altar, it's like an altered space to enter again. And I could notice that my interactions with that, with that human being was kind of like, was affecting the way I'm seeing what I'm seeing. Like I started to judge the room and the people in it and what we were doing. I was like, this is kind of dark and edgy. And those leaders, the three facilitators, they see one of them seems to be bored. The other is totally arrogant.

[00:48:24] Another one that's completely like pretending like to be strong and masculine, whatever. And it's like, and they see people like were crying somewhere crying. Like it was just so dramatic. And I was judging and I was like, something is wrong. Like I feel like I go underwater in like the perception was that I need to go underwater of this to kind of get rid of this critical perception in order to accept what's going

[00:48:51] on as sacred and important here. Like I needed to not think about the guy with the dog and not think about all the crit, like I needed to get rid of it in order to immerse myself again. And it literally, I could see how my perception shifted and I had to shift my perception into sort of immersing myself and be like, okay, so I'm going to be here. I cannot be talking with that guy because it takes me out of my process. I formulate it this way.

[00:49:21] It takes me out of this journey. Okay, done. That's a great example. It sounds like you got clarity. Yeah. And I see this a lot with people who were able to get out, which obviously you have, because we're talking, because you have like a little touch point with reality and that feels a certain way. And there's a dog and a beach and he's normal. Reality feels more authentic when you go back to an inauthentic atmosphere and it's evident to you. Which is why they ask you to isolate. They ask you to not engage with the outside world. And this is, you know, typical.

[00:49:51] That's exactly why they do isolation. Yeah, it's exactly why they isolate you. You can't have a foot in reality because then you can look at it and go, wait, that feels so much better just to go for a walk on the beach. So before we take a break to part two and how you guys got out and how you're healing and whatnot, tell us about the red flags in level one. Then we're going to take a break and come back to level two in part two and find out how you got out. I told you from the beginning, we have a friend who's probably listening to this podcast. I'm not going to say his name, who thinks this is just fine, has had some great experiences.

[00:50:21] What's level one all about? And like, why do people have a good experience? What do they get out of it? And what do you think they should know? I mean, one context just to name is like, it is a large group awareness training. And so anybody who's familiar with an LGAT or listens to other episodes, the large group awareness training in and of itself, right, tends to create this psychological pressure. And then you release the pressure and you're high.

[00:50:47] And so like when I left level one, I was high as a kite and super excited about going again. And so I signed up almost immediately to come back as an assistant in six months and do level one as a helper where just part of their brilliance, you actually still pay, even though you're working the whole time.

[00:51:11] And then after that getting a little more inside by being an assistant and getting behind the scenes, the next level is level two. So sacred sexual shamanic experience is level one. Level two is the initiation. And you have to get approval to go to level two. It's a death and rebirth is kind of the framework.

[00:51:40] And that when you do level one, it's very personal. They say it's like the sex ed you'd wish you'd had in high school or college, right? We do spend time with really interesting consent training and practices. But it's like a thin veneer over the intensity and the drive. And then level two is transpersonal. You're an archetype.

[00:52:05] So instead of processing your own individual pain, you're tapping in to process the pain of the world. And so there's a grandiosity. There's a headiness about that. And it's really dangled as like, well, level two is not for everybody and you need to get approval. And are you good enough insider to get to go do the intense one? And that was very intriguing.

[00:52:33] And I already saw red flags in level one as an assistant. Particularly, I got DARVO'd by one of the facilitators at the end of the session. They asked for a feedback session. You could indicate how much intensity you wanted to hear from them. Are you a one? Are you a 10? Of course, I was a 10. But I brought up some legitimate concerns. The teachers were on their phones in the middle of these sacred rituals.

[00:53:02] They weren't in the room emotionally. They didn't. They were bored is what it looked like. And so I said that. And then I had actually done the demo for Sacred Spot in front of a group of 50 people. And, you know, the facilitator who did that was very like intense and emotional and uncomfortable. And I asked like, hey, can we connect and process that? And they blew me off. They blew me off for like three or four days.

[00:53:32] And so I said that in the feedback session. And the response was, don't you see how you're making us the persecutor when really the problem is your lack of responsibility? This lack of responsibility is probably ruining your whole life. When you go home, you need to take a look at your stuff. And I did what many of us do and were Darvod. I collapsed, right? I was like, oh my God, you're right. I fawned.

[00:53:58] And then when I talked to people in between, they were like, something's wrong with this, Cara. And I was like, you just don't get it. Like, you just, you know, you don't get it. So the intensity or excitement of level two is you know that everybody who's there has already done it before. So there's no newbies, right? Now you're on the inside and you're like doing it for real. Okay, guys, we have so much to cover.

[00:54:24] In part two, we will find out more of Lena's red flags and what ultimately caused Cara and Lena to decide to leave and how they got out and what they've done to try to reconcile their experiences, how they're healing, etc. So do not miss part two. It's going to be a good one. See you Thursday.

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[00:55:27] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsenbor. Writing by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Swarczynski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.