Juicy Grift: Brandie Hadfield on MLM Recovery

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group,

[00:00:12] club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. Oops. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:59] Sinking down deep into the ocean, hanging on to a wave of my love. Welcome back everyone to a little bit of the ALBC. That means a little bit culty. That's so true. Thanks for spelling that out for us. What we got on the docket today?

[00:01:26] Well, we have a legitimately juicy episode. A little reference to the Twin Flames drift, but we it's true. We are excited about this and let me back up a little bit. Let it be known. And if you don't know this, you have not been listening to our podcast.

[00:01:45] Nippy and I love a wellness supplement. We even have a few show sponsors from that space. Ones we trust and can truly stand by many of which we've been using since before we've even had a podcast.

[00:01:56] But we also have no problem with calling bullshit on the culty side of the wellness space. And the MLM we're going to discuss in this episode has been on our radar for a while since the beginning of this podcast actually.

[00:02:08] And to be clear, we won't actually be naming names in this one because as we all know, culty organizations get lawsuit happy and this one hasn't had a major news expo say as of yet, as of this recording, but here's hoping it does. Yeah. Fingers crossed.

[00:02:23] And just to paint a picture, think of the organization we're talking about with our guest as what would happen if a superfood supplement brand had a three-way with a law of attraction seminar and a grifty MLM, but it specifically targets new moms. That's promiscuous cult talk right there.

[00:02:37] Good times. Brandy Hadfield woke up from what she describes as a good then ultimately nightmarish tour through this culty organization while selling the Mercedes Benz of supplements. She got out and today she's self-described recovering wellness influencer on her way to becoming a registered psychotherapist.

[00:02:54] She's also working on her cult memoir titled the MLM Recovery Handbook and we can't wait to read that. And in the meantime, go to her Instagram account. It's pretty funny. She's talking to us today because she's on a mission to warn people, new moms especially,

[00:03:06] about the dark side of the wellness space. We also chat with her about her take on influencers in general, recruitment and wellness coaches and what happens when those things come wrapped up in a glossy celebrity seal of approval all packaged in a way that targets new moms.

[00:03:21] And by the way, be sure to check out our episode with Roberta Blevins from the Lulu Rich docuseries for another story in the key of MLM mind fuckery. And our episode with Emily Lynn Paulson for more context on how these things can do their

[00:03:35] dirty deeds and our other one with Jane Marie on The Dream, which we did recently, which really goes into it and she does a lot of journalistic work on it. We might have to do an anti-MLM mashup. What do you think, Sarah? Yeah, greatest hits coming up.

[00:03:47] But until then, don't go anywhere right now because this is our conversation with Brandi Hadfield. Enjoy! Hey, Brandi. Welcome to Little Bit Culty. Thank you. We're really excited to have you here. I think your story is super important and what's kind of cool about this particular interview

[00:04:19] for us is that you've never shared this on an interview before. So we have the exclusive on the Brandi Hadfield story. I feel like a journalist now. Yeah. So I've been talking for a long time, but Nippy is sort of new to the story and because

[00:04:33] there isn't a docuseries or a memoir out yet, he gets to really go on this journey of discovery with us about what happened to you. So first of all, so brave of you to speak out.

[00:04:44] This is a big company and some big public figures that you've been in contact with that you're speaking about. But let's start at the beginning. What was going on in your life as a new mom and what were you looking for?

[00:04:55] What were your challenges when you started this journey? Something to preface this with that I just want to say is that it took me a long time to figure out what actually happened because part of this, anybody who's recruited for

[00:05:10] any type of cult will probably can attest to you are so trained on what your story is, framing it in such a way that the organization is the, you know, you have this like hero's journey.

[00:05:23] So it took me like a while after exiting to go, what actually happened and actually type it out like factually. And it was, it was very bizarre. So what actually happened was in 2011 I was pregnant and I was working a very demanding, high stress job with long hours.

[00:05:45] So I was nervous about how that transition was going to be. I was looking into daycare. I live in downtown Toronto and the cost of daycare is like, I think it was $1,800 a month at that time.

[00:05:58] So Canadian dollars, but still, and I was thinking like really at the end of the month, I'm going to be bringing home like $800 after this. So for the stress and you know, everything, you know, taking away from that time with my son.

[00:06:16] So I was thinking if I can just make $800 and I can, it can buy me some more time with him. So I was seeking a solution, especially once he was born and everything was so much more difficult than I anticipated.

[00:06:30] I had one vision of what motherhood was going to look like and it was very different. And I think that new mothers are often like the ultimate seeker. You're looking for a manual that doesn't really exist. You're looking for a mentor. You're looking for community.

[00:06:47] And we just, a lot of us don't really have that sense of community anymore in this like hustle culture world. So yeah, so I was actively seeking all of those things and I was reading every book I could get my hands on.

[00:07:02] I really wanted to do the best job that I could and like succeed at getting my baby to sleep through the night and all the things that you think you're supposed to do. And none of it was working and I was feeling like such a failure.

[00:07:15] Then I found one movement and one style of parenting and guru that helped me to trust my intuition a little bit more and lean into motherhood and what the reality was. So then I started like taking every parenting certification I could take and thinking that

[00:07:36] was what I was going to do. I was going to help mothers who were in a situation like me. And then this one particular guru I found had a coaching certificate, which I took and invested good amount of money in.

[00:07:49] And once I had all those credentials, I was going out, I was networking, I was building a community, I was running moms groups, I was doing all of these great things, making a lot of new friends and connections, but not making any money.

[00:08:02] And then lo and behold, I get an envelope in the mail, Manila envelope. Inside is this DVD and it's this guru giving a health lecture, a health talk, like this like very 90s. Presentation?

[00:08:18] Yeah, I don't know how to explain the aesthetic of it, but it was very 90s. All those groups have a 90s kind of vibe. Yeah, bad suits. And then about three quarters of the way in, it pivots to talking about this product line, this supplement line.

[00:08:34] And the invitation in the letter is to join their team in endorsing this product line, which would be a perfect fit for a coach like me. So it was from the guru's daughter who is also certified as a coach through this person's coaching program.

[00:08:53] But he's not a like a traditional Indian guru. Correct. We're not trying to keep it a secret who he is. We just don't want to say his name. True. Right? Yeah, I guess that's true.

[00:09:05] I just want to point out that the coaching program that you were taking through this leading pediatrician speaker and public figure, he wasn't a guru like any guru. He was elevated in your mind and in the world as a public speaker and figure who had credentials

[00:09:23] in this space that you are now learning. Yeah, I guess what you're trying to ascertain is how does he obtain the guru moniker? Why was he elevated? I'm pretty sure you can find his name in guru attached, like parenting guru and his name,

[00:09:35] I'm sure are together in many. Because he's known as this figurehead of this style of parenting. The Time Magazine article with the woman breastfeeding her four-year-old, that was an expose on him actually. It didn't go the way that they thought it was going to go.

[00:09:51] But I mean, just as a mom who also did things that some people might find controversial like co-sleep and breastfeed for longer than average or whatever, a lot of those things I can

[00:10:03] totally relate to and see the draw in terms of finding a community in a space where there's so many questions. Do we do this or do we do that? How do we sleep? How do we feed? Do we vaccinate? Do we circumcise or not?

[00:10:16] There's so many questions, right? So how did that feel first before we get into the second? Before the envelope came, how did it feel to find that community? Everybody warned me going into motherhood that like, hey, there's going to be these

[00:10:29] many choices and these forks in the road. And depending on what path you take, it may strain some relationships with other people, some friends who are doing things differently. I think the mommy wars was really hot at that time too where everything was so controversial

[00:10:45] about whether or not to sleep train. And it just felt like it was really hot at that time. What is your stance on all of these mothering issues? It's so true. Yeah. And also within your friend circle, nobody warns you about...

[00:11:00] I don't know if you really experienced this so much. I saw just people being dogmatic about their belief and we can take it off being a mommy. It's the current vibe of the world right now. Just a little tangent for the NXIVM nerds.

[00:11:12] When we had Troy, there was a woman in NX... Because we were in NXIVM when we had Troy. And there was a woman who was like a proctor and she had a kid like a year before me and

[00:11:20] she was basically telling me why we needed to sleep train and told me about a book, which is... I'm sure you know what the book is, but I'm forgetting what it's called right now, which is basically... Now I know is like fundamental Christian... Oh, Becoming Baby Wise? Yeah.

[00:11:35] Baby Wise. Yeah. Baby Wise. That's the one. Blanket straining. Yeah. And she swore by it and she's like, oh, we put our baby down in the crib and we're so proud of...

[00:11:45] And she was very proud of the fact that she never co-slapped and the baby was down the hall and she created that. And I'm like, that sounds terrible. What are you talking about? It seemed totally counterintuitive everything how I wanted to do.

[00:11:56] Needless to say, we're not friends anymore. Yeah. It can be worn as kind of a badge of honor. And depending on the temperament of your baby is what I've come to realize. Some things might be...

[00:12:06] It might be much easier to get your baby to sleep through the night on their own. But I had a temperament that was very sensitive and he would have vomited.

[00:12:19] And he got so escalated so quickly and little did I know that was going to be kind of a precursor of telling of just his unique, beautiful temperament, but made some of the traditional things much more challenging. And as a mother, I think you can internalize that. Right.

[00:12:35] And I actually remember saying at the time, those people like, wait, I don't understand this attachment style and Baby Wise both claim to have the same results, which is confident, solid kids. Right? That's what they claimed. And I was like, how do you know which is which?

[00:12:49] But now I sort of on the same page as you. And this is not the point of this podcast, but every child is unique. There's no one way. But at the time, you found a way, you found a community and you do all these coaching courses

[00:13:00] and then you get this manila envelope with this invitation. And to become part of this community, to become part of this health club. So it was presented as a health club? That's how this person likes to frame it. It's the best health club you'll ever join.

[00:13:17] It was these little taglines like the best health club you'll ever join or personal development program cleverly disguised as a business. Things like that. Right. So you got invited to the best health club you could ever join by this, we'll call him the guru.

[00:13:31] So just not to use the- By his daughter. By his daughter. Okay. Who, you know, there is a bit of a parasocial relationship already created because this family is well known.

[00:13:41] So it felt on one hand in my building at that time, there was a lot of MLMs that were really big. Arbonne was huge. There was a woman who drove a white Mercedes in my building. I don't think she's still with Arbonne anymore, just FYI.

[00:13:59] So it was all around and there's this, you know, you have this, I think, I don't think anybody doesn't feel a little bit wary of it when they come across it. When I was pitched in my apartment, another mother offered to make me dinner and come

[00:14:13] over and just like practice for presentation. And it was a pitch so that all these encounters I had had with MLMs. And so I said, when I spoke to her, is this a pyramid scheme? And she said, no, no, no, no.

[00:14:27] We actually borrow from the best practices of several different business models, corporate America, because we have a benefits package, which I never saw because you don't get that until you're the 0.5%, which doesn't happen to the vast majority.

[00:14:43] Traditional franchise, except you don't have to have all of the inventory and network marketing, because when you love something, you want to tell everybody about it. Right. So they were saying we're not an MLM because we have aspects of normal business practices, but we're still an MLM.

[00:15:00] They flirt with aspects of normal business practices. So they were saying we are an MLM, we're just a good MLM. Yeah, that was the narrative. That was the narrative that we're different. We're special. Yeah. It's a good thing we didn't meet each other at that time. Oh yeah.

[00:15:18] I would have been a NXIVM. Yeah, you probably would have. I probably would have also sold. Well, because what was the main products? Can you say without giving too much away? Yeah, it's wellness products.

[00:15:29] It's a very simple product line, which is one of the features that are sold, but it's very simple. It's not like this big catalog. It's just a few things. Do you like the products? That's a bigger question than you would think. I thought I did.

[00:15:44] When I left, I couldn't look at it without wanting to vomit. With all of these companies, you're trained to spin your stories. Every single success in your life is attributed back to the community and the products. And I believe that.

[00:15:58] I believe that everything good that was in my life was because of that. And then two years out, because there was a lot of narrative around the world. We're just living in this toxic soup and we're all inflamed and eating frankenfoods.

[00:16:15] There was this very dismal picture that was painted and how we are this bright sunshine that will reduce your pain and suffering. And then two years out, not taking it or anything, and I had a full blood work panel done.

[00:16:32] And my naturopath was telling me all of the wonderful things like, you don't need to take vitamin D anymore. Your iron's amazing. Everything was amazing. There's no signs of your immune response is great.

[00:16:44] I can't remember how they word it, but I remember talking about immunity and inflammation and all of these markers were so fantastic. And at first I was really happy and then I was hit with like, motherfucker, if I would

[00:16:57] have been on the products at this time when I got these results, I would have been all over saying like, oh, I have this amazing result. So that's two years after leaving. Let's go back in time again. So you're in it.

[00:17:10] And what are we going to call this company? Let's just call it The Company? Yeah, let's call it The Company. The Company. The Co. The Co. So you get reeled in because the guru's daughter invites you to be part of the team of the best health club ever.

[00:17:24] What's the transition from the parenting groups that you were doing to like, did you go full on become a leader? Give us a little bit of your journey into the MLM and into the leadership. Yeah. So I'm a pretty type A personality.

[00:17:38] And I thought if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do like, I like to follow a recipe, which is why initially like, I thought I would sleep train because I need a recipe.

[00:17:49] So I was like, I'm going to do all the things you tell me I'm going to go all in because I need to be making an income. So I trust you. And if this is what you trusted people are telling me to do, then that is exactly what

[00:18:02] I will do. So I did everything as best I could. I realized in retrospect, it's pretty much impossible. You're always feeling like you're not doing enough always, which is what they use to justify your failure. A hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:18:16] And I went to the very first conference I could go because I was told that, you know, many people make the mistake of waiting until they're making money to go to the conference, but that's a big mistake because you won't be making money until you start going to

[00:18:29] the conference, go to the events. You know, all these events are pushed. And what I realized later is that it's indoctrination. Like that's why you're told to be plugged in. Matrix. Yeah. You got to spend money to make money. You got to spend money to make money. Yeah.

[00:18:47] We heard that a lot too. So you give it your all, you are selling these wellness products. Recruiting machine. Yeah. Recruiting machine. What was life like then? So it wasn't what I had thought.

[00:19:02] Like I didn't realize going in that I would have to really put everything else on the back burner and that I wouldn't have time to do the things that I really wanted to do.

[00:19:11] My desire to help mothers was used like, well, this is how you can make a big impact with mothers. So I was, everything was through this funnel of back into the company. My husband brought up just the other day, like did they ever once ask like, how's your

[00:19:28] coaching practice going? Because that's what I had invested the thousands of dollars in, which ended up what looks like to be a funnel for this. I could be wrong, but based on my experience, nobody ever was there to try to help me with my, with my coaching.

[00:19:43] It was all about building this pyramid. Right. And just to really spell that out. So you joined a parenting coaching program by a leading pediatric parenting teacher slash guru who then invites you to join a health club, which is not an MLM.

[00:20:01] And is there any like crossover with these things? Like you're going to go to a conference and learn about parenting and also wellness, or are they two separate things? It wasn't parent coaching. It was family health coaching and prenatal health coaching.

[00:20:13] The parenting certifications were something separate that had nothing to do with this. I was just trying to help like holistically with families. But yeah, if you go to the conference, there's like a table to recruit into the coaching.

[00:20:25] A lot of the, there's a lot of crossover where the coaches, a lot of the coaches are also reps for this company. A lot of the reps for this company think to be successful, I should get the coaching.

[00:20:35] So there is, there's a big crossover there, although they try to be very careful to not make it overt. And because I was so good and obedient and doing all of the things I was given special advantages.

[00:20:49] And one of those would be to be the person, if any of the coaches, there's a period of time where if any of the coaches were interested in becoming reps for this company, then they would talk to me.

[00:21:01] And then if I could recruit them, then they would also become in my downline, which actually isn't really fair. It's an unfair advantage that I got. And I got several of these, but despite that, I still never got the beautiful dream. You never made it to the top.

[00:21:15] I got to the top 1.6%, I believe, but not to the top 0.5%. Right. And we can talk about those numbers later. So was there ever like a heyday where you felt like, okay, this is working?

[00:21:28] Or did you just go and then finally was like, this is never going to work? Yeah. There were ebbs and flows. There were times where I'm like, because there's all these dangled carrots along the way.

[00:21:38] And I think 2019 was probably my peak where I was really thinking this is going somewhere and I was all in with an obsessed determination. But when I look back on it, it's really sad. I get like the memories of me talking. It's like, oh, it's really sad. Yeah.

[00:21:59] We have cringe moments as well. So you were speaking on stage and doing your testimonials and you were going to conferences and building your downline and selling these products. Is that accurate? Yeah. I didn't get to...

[00:22:16] I got to cross the stage and say my name in the microphone, but I didn't yet get to the point where I actually tell my story to the sea of thousands. They give you these little tastes, right? To keep you...

[00:22:31] For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir. It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores.

[00:22:42] If you want to see that story in streaming form, watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO. Break time's over people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty. It's a good one.

[00:22:57] Feel free to say no to this, but if you were telling your story in the recruitment time, what was your story that you spun? What was your wellness hero story? Similar to the fact that I needed to make an extra $800 a month because the cost of

[00:23:14] daycare, that whole thing. That was true. Yeah. Yeah. And then I serendipitously crossed paths with this family that were my heroes and they invited me to this opportunity and it felt like it was meant to be because I was looking for

[00:23:33] something and here it was, a chance to work with my heroes. A little bit of magical thinking there. Oh yeah. I already went in, I was already like law of attraction, all of those things. These companies, they use that.

[00:23:48] It's like this smoothie and the ingredients are evangelical Christianity, law of attraction, landmark forum and a little bit of Scientology blended all up. That's what we're all drinking. That's the Kool-Aid.

[00:24:00] So yeah, and then my win, the highlight of my story, the hope that I sold was that now I get to stay home with my children and be present. And then we would have to make an income claim without making an income claim by saying,

[00:24:15] you can't say how much you make. So what you can say is, I no longer have to worry about my mortgage or I no longer... So there'd be something like that. You're going to retire your husband? My groceries. Oh, retire my husband.

[00:24:30] Yeah, well we were told, yeah, if you can pay for groc... Whatever it is that you can do and if you really have nothing, then you use the story of somebody else. Like, I'm just getting started, but my friend and mentor, Sally has retired her husband.

[00:24:46] I'd love for you to meet Sally. And she's heard a lot about you and would love to meet you too. Oh my God. I was people's Sally for a lot of people. Yeah, been there.

[00:24:59] Okay, so you had the heyday, you had the ebbs and flows, you're pushing this business. What were some of the red flags that you missed or some of the icky bits?

[00:25:08] Yeah, so one of the little red flags that stands out to me was being on one of those calls, connection calls they're called. And I'm the upline for these women who are recruiting other people from the internet.

[00:25:23] So then they're just meeting someone online on social media, recruiting them and then connecting them to me. So then I'm on a Zoom and it's me, this person that someone on my team met on the internet and then my mentor.

[00:25:36] And so we'd be love bombing these people, which I didn't know was... The love bombing part, I just, I'm a very see the good in everyone kind of person and I really do. I can find compliments for anyone. I can see that.

[00:25:50] So that felt true and real to me. I didn't realize it was that skill or that quality was being weaponized. But in this one particular moment when this woman discloses that she has a pretty serious mental health diagnosis and I just thought, well, that would...

[00:26:05] This thought comes to my mind like that would impede her ability to do a job. But the story is that anyone can do this, but really no, because to really do this, you have to be excellent with time management, ability to focus. Follow up skills. Interpersonal skills.

[00:26:21] Follow up skills. And in that moment, instead of... I remember Janja Lalic talked about an informed consent, like how there should be some sort of informed consent with joining an organization. And it was that moment where that would have been a perfect opportunity for that, to say

[00:26:38] this is what is required. I want to make sure that with your diagnosis that you feel that that would be something you could take on. Instead the love bombing just amped up. It was almost like, ooh, she's easy then. Vulnerability. So that was one.

[00:26:54] And there was a few mental health issues, like a person who was discharged from the army with severe PTSD. And I just saw in her induction process or whatever you want to call it, her go off the rails.

[00:27:11] And it felt like to me that somehow this process of her joining us set something off in her. And it was quite upsetting to that. And just how that was all handled was a big red flag that I put up on the shelf.

[00:27:26] Just to make sure I understand, someone who had PTSD joined and being part of this company triggered her and then how that was handled? That's how it appeared. Yeah, that's how it appeared to me because she was another person who was recruited by

[00:27:38] someone on my team on the internet. And all of our diet culture mentality and all of that that she was being trained on, she was taking everything super literally. She was going fully...

[00:27:51] She called, not called, left a voice clip on our group chat where she was like, they don't understand they're putting fucking poison in their bodies. You need to talk to them. She was just really amped up about... Which is true. She really took this mission super seriously.

[00:28:11] And I just think it was her state of mind when she was coming in, in such a fragile state already, that it seemed to be a harmful experience. Not like how we are told, the single story, which I learned in the Unbounded Choice course

[00:28:25] at the Lawledge Center, that every cult has one story and they're all around. The world is in a dire state and we have the solution. But what I was seeing, it wasn't always the solution. And in fact, I was seeing harm.

[00:28:42] This is not a good fit for this person. Yeah. It seems like when the organization is stress test, right? And that's when you find out what someone's made of, that's what they're made of. They bury their problems.

[00:28:54] They don't have the apparatus to deal with it and they actually perpetuate the abuse. Yeah. And just as time goes on, and another red flag, it's just as time goes on and there's this ends justify the means mentality where you are encouraged to target, overtly target vulnerable people.

[00:29:13] And then as time goes on, you're seeing like, oh, that mom whose daughter has leukemia is still suffering, still dealing with this. You know that my father-in-law who has heart issues is still struggling. Everything isn't being fixed so perfectly and you're seeing that it's the 1%.

[00:29:35] And I think enough time passes and you can't ignore all of that anymore. You have a choice to either do the right thing or continue to plug yourself in and

[00:29:47] swim in the soup of the stories and the hope and the magic and all of that and just bury your head. And also you've invested. You've invested so much. Oh, the sunk cost fallacy 100%. Yes. I have a question. Yeah.

[00:30:02] You said in the beginning it took a little time for you to kind of realize it. When did you start to see this as abuse? It wasn't until I was out that I saw it as abuse.

[00:30:11] Like I said, you have this story that you're, this narrative that you're trained to cling to and that's just your narrative. And then when I got out and like, I didn't know why I was depressed for a year. I thought it had to do with the pandemic.

[00:30:25] Is that how you got out through the pandemic? Yeah. So it was midway through the pandemic, I guess. Before we get to what you're about to say, I just want to find out how you got out before you figured out the abuse.

[00:30:36] So on one of these, we're very much encouraged the connection calls, but especially to connect with the guru because all of these people have all of these experts with PhDs and incredible education and credential and reputation. And so it's very much encouraged.

[00:30:56] I think might be called affinity fraud where you use the, you leverage the trust of people to rope them into something. But you would have to say that this is technically a scam, which it's technically hasn't been

[00:31:12] determined that you can be the judge of whether what that is. But on one of these connections, the guru, the woman was talking to the guru about her teenager who was really depressed and it was, she was really scared and didn't know what to do.

[00:31:28] And so he would talk to children with cancer or like all of these very serious situations where he would give advice and then weave in and spend hundreds of dollars on products. And the more serious your condition is, the more you have to take, which ups the amount

[00:31:43] that you have to buy. But I would write down everything that was recommended because again, the type A personality, I'm going to do all of these things. I don't want, I'm going to have teenagers one day. I don't want them to be going through this.

[00:31:56] So I'll apply all of the, all of these recommendations right now. And one of them was he was recommending to get the daughter off of screens, off of a phone, like give her a 30 day kind of screen detox as one of the recommendations.

[00:32:10] And I was like, well, that had already been something that was in my gut that my kids were on iPads too much anyway. So that was already something that had been bothering me. And I thought, okay, that's a tangible thing. I'm going to do that 30 days.

[00:32:22] a 30 day break and just reset. And then I thought, well, I have to do it too because that's not fair to them if I'm glued to my phone working my business all day and they're just like, what the fuck are we going to do?

[00:32:36] So we all did it together as a family. And that was when all of a sudden the voices, the events, the calls, the voice clips, everything had stopped. And it was like, that's when depression hit.

[00:32:52] I had heard in retrospect, Stephen Hasson's story about the Mooneys and how he got in that car accident. And when he described how then he was in the hospital and he, that was like a break that

[00:33:03] super resonated with me because it was like the cult was actually on me at all times via my phone. And now I was, I was broken free so I could hear my own voice. I can like, I'm just going to pet my cat.

[00:33:17] I wasn't constantly on busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. So then I thought that I would come back after a month and I couldn't, I was super depressed and I was just like, I don't know, I can't come back yet. I can't come back yet.

[00:33:32] And over time it just wasn't going away. And after about a year, the ironic thing though is at this point I was super dependent. I was finally making income. I was able to not do anything and money was still coming in off the backs of other people.

[00:33:48] And that felt like shit. That felt so shitty. But I was dependent as I said, and that's when I first, well, I, my husband had recommended watching The Vow. We watched that together and I was like, as immediately I was like, yeah, I could totally see the draw.

[00:34:03] I could, I would have totally been there. I watched season one and then I started listening to the podcast and then heard about the dream podcast and life after MLM and started reading Combating Cult Mind Control and just all of these resources, Janja Lalic's book.

[00:34:20] That's when I think the education evoked rage because it's important to be educated, but the rage that comes from knowing this is the same playbook that all of these groups are using. We weren't special or different. It's the exact same thing. And that was never disclosed.

[00:34:40] So how are these family if they don't disclose like, actually this is all kind of built off of Amway and the history is this. The scary part about it is that there's actually a conscience and an intent behind it.

[00:34:52] I went through the shame and stupid part for a bit, you know, probably six months of that, which it's a good chunk of time. And Janja Lalic's book was one of the things that helped me put language to what had happened to me and put in sound bites.

[00:35:08] And I could actually describe how it works. Like one of my decisions was like, I'm going to understand this so well that I could actually almost, if I wanted to do it, I could do it. Right. That's how well I wanted to understand it. Right.

[00:35:20] So I could really get my mind into the psychology of like, that's really fucked up. This is there's something out there that that's consciously doing this. And it's very hard for people who don't think that way to understand that psychology.

[00:35:32] I have a question for you about Janja Lalic. I have my moment in her book where I was like, that's mine. Right. And there was a bunch. What was yours with hers? I'm curious. Like mine was moral injury.

[00:35:42] Like when she goes through like the eight things, moral injury just hit me in the gut. I was like, I like almost had a puke moment. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that would be for me too.

[00:35:53] Like the analogy of the shelf really resonates with me, but the moral injury I think was the toughest, the toughest pill for me to swallow is the moral injury. By far for me. Yeah.

[00:36:05] But that was exactly what I ended up doing was the exact opposite of what my intention was. My intention was to help. Exactly. Should we describe moral injury for our audience or they just don't see us having a good time or bonding?

[00:36:16] My interpretation is that like, for me, I had this intention to help families, to help mothers specifically, and then to realize, oh, actually I was exploited and I was exploiting and perpetuating abuse that I had suffered, that I had unknowingly unwittingly suffered.

[00:36:37] That I was perpetuating and doing the same to others makes me sick to my stomach. Yep. Yeah. That was the hardest part to think that I was aligned with something that was doing damage. Yeah. Like during the pandemic, knowing that people are spending their stimulus checks on investing

[00:36:52] into the business. Wow. And there's this part of you that's like, fuck, I don't know that they're going to, I don't know that they're going to do it, but I have to believe that they're going to do it.

[00:37:01] And they do a good job of making you feel superior because you go all in, you leaders show up and you show up. Yep. Which kind of makes you go, yeah, I do. You know, I do show up and they're not showing up.

[00:37:14] So then it makes you feel justified in your position. The leader show up line is the MLM equivalent of the personal development line of play full on and probably overlap. Yeah. Right. Just to leverage that. I think it's designed to also interrupt your doubt a little bit, right?

[00:37:35] Because I'm sure you're not showing up. I'm sure they know. If you're having a doubt, you're not showing up. You can't play full on and doubt as opposed to. Oh yeah. Well, yeah.

[00:37:43] A big trope was believe you have to believe the only way to be successful is if you believe in what do you believe? Well, you have to believe in yourself that you're essentially invincible. You have to believe in the company. Don't ask any questions.

[00:37:57] Don't say don't ask any questions, but you have to have an unwavering, unshakable belief in yourself, the company, the products. Then we have some information control because don't look elsewhere for information about about any of this stuff. Just what we feed you.

[00:38:13] And then they added in and your upline, they added in, you have to have unshakable faith in your upline as well. Don't blame or point fingers. Look in the mirror. No stinking thinking. Responsibility. Yeah. And there's all truth to that too.

[00:38:26] That's what makes the moral injury so hard is because you buy not only into these principles and these things that you think are more in something positive, and you are going out rooted in that morality, at least in your mind. But in reality, you're actually perpetuating something bad.

[00:38:42] That's the hardest thing to reconcile. I thought it was done with ahas, but here's an aha. Do you know where the biggest, where MLMs are most prolific? What state? Utah. Yeah. The Mormons in Utah. LDS churches? Yeah. The Mormons. And what's their main thought stopping cliche?

[00:38:58] Don't doubt your doubts. Like you can't, you can't, there's no room for doubt. So like, no wonder these MLMs thrive there because there's a, there's already that template of. Well, they're susceptible because they're already in another cult. That's what I'm saying.

[00:39:11] But, but specifically, I mean, I'd made that correlation before. Well the dogmas are the same. Yeah. Specifically about not doubting and believing and throwing yourself into it and never questioning because questioning means you're not a true child of God or whatever. Wild. Well, just. I know. Yeah.

[00:39:28] I was just also thinking about the information control. I don't know if you know this Brandy, but I was also in an MLM before NXIVM. It was a vitamin company and one of the things we touted to show that it was like such a good one.

[00:39:39] It was like this chart of like how vitamins were absorbed by our body, like all the different types of vitamins, GNC and Jameson or whatever. And then ours. And it was like exponentially, like a thousand times more absorbed or whatever.

[00:39:53] And it wasn't until after I left that I like looked at where that study, that survey or whatever the scientific study came from was the same company that owned our company. Like it was not an outside source. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:07] So there's so much of that. Yeah. Since exiting, I have looked at, I have delved into that and the Tina website, Truth in Advertising, Tina.org is a great website. And I found what the criticism, what the very valid criticisms are of the science that you

[00:40:25] were told to lean upon and use to sell. I bet. You take the time off, you leave, but when did you actually like leave or what was, you felt shitty earning, you know, earning the residuals? What was the final straw?

[00:40:39] Once I started learning what I was learning and my depression transformed into rage, I felt sick. I dreaded getting that pay, that money deposited into my account. And I was begging my husband, like, I can't, I have to, not only do I have to leave, but

[00:40:57] I have to speak out about this. That's when I reached out to you, Sarah, because that moral injury I was grappling with, like how can I take this? We need it and I technically earned it.

[00:41:10] As my husband said, like you worked for how many years for below minimum wage? Like you, consider this back pay. But still I, it felt like dirty money. I just knowing what I knew and then now seeing it in retrospect as abuse, thought terminating

[00:41:26] cliches and all of these textbook manipulations that were used upon me and that I perpetuated. So I started babysitting. I'm like, I'll do anything to earn the money that I'm making now instead of this.

[00:41:40] And so he's like, okay, like I can see, I can see how this is really affecting you. And for people who want to hear the whole story, go to your sub stack to do the numbers. Great. Yeah. Your sub stack is a really good resource. Really well done.

[00:41:53] Really well. I think you articulate well what the abuse is and do a good job of explaining your emotional process throughout it and very relatable soundbites. This podcast certainly would not be happening without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons. Are you with us?

[00:42:11] Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes, ad-free and exclusive content, and the occasional zoom with fan favorites from our past episodes, Q and A's and all sorts of goodies. It's fun over there people. Break time's over people.

[00:42:33] Let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty. It's a good one. I know it's a 20 minute clip or so, but can you summarize very briefly like what you did a profit and loss as recommended by our dear mutual friend, Roberta Blevins? Yeah.

[00:42:47] But it's so good. What you did was good. You break it down so it's undeniable. Yeah. And I couldn't believe that I didn't even do that until recently this past summer. I was like, I should do that profit and loss somewhere because what was the honest truth

[00:43:02] over the whole span of things? Because they do this thing like recognizing you when you hit certain milestones and make it like this big deal. So there's this real cognitive dissonance where you're making E-nuts, but you're getting all this recognition.

[00:43:15] You joined the comma club because your earnings have a comma in it, meaning I made $1,000 Canadian for a month's worth of work. And that included a bonus the first time that happened. So it was like, what? This is like after expenses, like three to four dollars an hour.

[00:43:35] But I'm like, it's working. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. You dive into that wave and I think a lot of people don't also count. It's technically forced labor. Yeah, it's forced labor.

[00:43:44] And also when you're in an MLM and you're playing full on, you're working all the time. Yeah. Right? Like there's no downtime. But it's treated like we get to be in this community together. We are family. So how do you track your hours when you're with your family?

[00:44:00] Right. So what I did was I put down, I just went into my emails that I sent for when I did my taxes, like what all my expenses were for all the subscriptions and things that I needed to run my business.

[00:44:12] Plus taking all the trips into consideration and averaging that out over a 12 month period, all the products to be a product of the product plus extras for samples. Plus you know, the kind of the thing that the cool people do is we take double.

[00:44:28] So you're getting double the amount of product. And then I took how much I was making average out over 12 months and did the math and worked it out to like for the vast majority of my time, I'm not making minimum wage, but I'm,

[00:44:43] but I am painting this picture of time, freedom and flexibility and you know, taking tons of pictures of my kids and look, you know, every, yeah, you're thinking about it all the time. How can I use this for content? How can I use this to recruit?

[00:44:59] How can I create value and give more and bring more people in? But like I think about, you know, my husband, you guys are familiar with like the film industry, right?

[00:45:10] And it's hard and you have to be a hard worker and it's long hours, you know, but there, but at the same time there's protection because you're in the union and there's, you know what you're going to get made.

[00:45:20] And if you work overtime, you're going to get compensated for that. And you actually have the benefits package and there's none of that protection or security. There's no human resources, no HR, AP, play assistance program or anything. The solution is all just believe harder and magical thinking. Right.

[00:45:42] It's funny that you said that because I was in film during this whole time, like my back or both of our backgrounds was film and TV. And I remember thinking like, why would I choose these long hours when I can like have

[00:45:51] my own schedule and you know, blah, blah, blah. Not realizing I was equally as busy. I just wasn't punching the clock in the same way. And I didn't have a union. There's no union for cults or MLMs. Yeah.

[00:46:03] Like the insanity of it when I'm actually like, you know, babysitting a little four-year-old girl and it's work I can do with my children, present mom. And I'm actually making more money than I did for the first several years. Oh my God. Yeah.

[00:46:19] So you mentioned your healing journey and you mentioned some of the things that you've been doing, the Lalit Center and the books that you read and podcasts. What else have you been doing?

[00:46:26] And how, so this has been, if I'm doing the math right, two years now that you've been out? Yeah. I severed ties in May, this past May. How did that go? Uh, yeah, just like a love bombing. I miss you and your precious family.

[00:46:43] And if you ever want to come back, the door is open kind of thing. No, they didn't fight. I think they knew. I think they knew. I think they knew to stay back. Are they aware that you're speaking out? They've gotta be, they've got to be.

[00:46:57] Some of the people that are even, that were even part of my downline are still in. Have you tried to get them out? No. What I've done is leave breadcrumbs because I wanted to protect myself.

[00:47:06] So you know, doing my sub stack and things like that is like, at the beginning, I remember one of the women in my downline said, anybody have any book recommendations on Facebook? And I did a list and it was like books, memoirs.

[00:47:18] And I put cultish by Amanda Montel and then more books. So I just kind of like inserted it in there and then she read it and then she messaged me and she was like, I read cultish question, kind of odd to be coming from my upline.

[00:47:32] And I'm like, yes, what did you think? So I leave, leave breadcrumbs and then open door. So then if they want to come to me, I'm an open door. Another woman wanted to talk and I said, let's meet face to face for lunch because I know what

[00:47:46] it's like when you're fully in and you are a flying monkey and you're screenshotting and all of this stuff. So I really wanted to make it, make them feel like, you know, how are you feeling? And listen to them.

[00:47:58] And then when they express the doubts that they're having validate that. But anybody who's not willing to see it, then they're not coming. They're not coming to me except for just, you know, a couple of flying monkeys to say,

[00:48:11] how could you be speaking out against such an amazing community that's saved so many, whatever. I forgot about the screenshots. Remember all the screenshots we were taking as we were leaving? They were being taken of us. Serious spy versus spy stuff going on.

[00:48:30] So other healing things other than the books that I talked about? One of the things was going back to school because I had deferred my education for this cult. And so when I started waking up, I was like, oh my God, I wanted to be a therapist.

[00:48:46] I forgot who I was. So reclaiming my identity, you know, you have this like cult persona and shedding that and like, who am I? And honoring that and just doing the things that I want to do has been healing.

[00:48:58] So education, you know, going to school myself and studying psychology and all of the like independent education. Is it all in therapy, the school that you're doing now? Oh yeah. So I'm studying psychotherapy. So I'm in my third year now. Congrats. Thank you.

[00:49:13] I know what my thesis is going to be, obviously. I'm like gathering my resources for my thesis in fifth year. So that's my independent schooling, which is like Lawlitch Center course and you know, stuff like that.

[00:49:26] So the education has been healing, but also like sublimation is what we call it when we take our pain and we use it to fuel positive projects like running and yoga and art, hiking and things like that. So using the pain as fuel has been big.

[00:49:44] Nurturing those relationships that went to the wayside and finding that they're all still there, all still love me. What did your sister say when you got out? Oh my gosh. She's just been so sweet.

[00:49:57] So for those who didn't read my sub stack, I tried to recruit my sister and then she ended up ghosting me and then saying, you know what, this isn't for me. And I got mad.

[00:50:08] And it really damaged our relationship for a while, but she was right there when I was apologizing and she said, I'm so glad to see you using your energy in this way. It's been wonderful.

[00:50:19] My own therapy, but I will say that in the beginning I had to do a lot of like educating to therapist to help her understand the loaded language and like translate everything to which is why I want to specialize in commercial cult recovery when I'm graduated. That's great.

[00:50:41] Well, when you do, we can add you to our resource list for our listeners because there's not enough people trained in that space. And a lot of them don't know what they're looking at entirely. I mean, I think they're starting to because it's going on everywhere.

[00:50:55] Like if you understand what it is, you can see it going on everywhere. It's crazy. It's kind of a new profession that's being spawned out of all this. Anything else we didn't cover about the star factor in these types of brands and schemes?

[00:51:08] How are celebrity pundits getting involved in MLMs problematic in terms of leveraging their influence for brands and programs and companies? Did they have a lot of celebrities? Well, the person that the guru that she's talking about, I knew who he was. Yeah, I know who he is.

[00:51:24] There was no other celebrities attached to this brand, but I knew like I heard that like some of the 90210 cast are part of a different MLM. Oh yeah, he's big in what is it? Roden and Fields? No. Or Bond. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:51:39] One of my friends in Vancouver, sort of friends, was under him, under Ian Zierling and she left her MLM after seeing our story and told Ian to go. Big celebrities are touting this shit.

[00:51:53] It's harmful because by the time I was recruited, I had read hundreds and hundreds of pages. Of these people's books. So I had already, you know, we talk about like parasocial relationship. I guess that's what that is.

[00:52:05] And you're like, wow, this person has had a very intimate, played an intimate role in my personal life by informing my parenting choices. So there's, I think it was you Nippy. I remember hearing, I think it was you say the good guy fallacy. Was it you?

[00:52:22] I don't think so. Somebody had said something like, I didn't think they could ever do that. And then I thought Nippy said, yeah, it's like the good guy fallacy. But I could be wrong. It sounds like something you'd say.

[00:52:30] Maybe it was just in passing and you don't remember. I wish I was that clever. But I was like, yeah. What is the good guy fallacy? The good guy fallacy is like, there's such a good guy. They would never do something like that.

[00:52:42] I don't think I use the term good guy fallacy, but yeah, there's certain people you don't project Malinten into. Not at all. And yet, yet at the same time, they have this reputation, they have this trust, but at the

[00:52:55] same time, how could they be in this system for decades and not at some point realize that like he used to tell this story about this mother that came into his practice who was crying. And he was like, why are you crying? He had this anecdote.

[00:53:12] And she said, because I have to go back to work. And he said, do you have to go or do you want to go or do you have to go? And she said, no, I have to.

[00:53:20] And then he took the time to show her how she could start her own business. And then the next time she came in for that checkup with little Johnny, she was, she gave him a big hug and said, thank you for changing my life.

[00:53:32] Now I get to stay home with him. And in retrospect, I'm like, you know, he only had that one anecdote and wasn't even real as there's such thing as a little Johnny. You'd think after all these years, it'd be many more success stories that sounded a little

[00:53:46] bit more. He didn't upgrade his shtick, I guess. I think everyone who's been through an MLM has the moment where they replay the anecdotes that they've probably heard. I mean, we've heard Nancy stories like, we would even leave the room towards the end

[00:53:59] because even though I liked her and trusted her, I was like, I cannot hear this story again. But like, you think back and you go, was that even true? You know? Well, they have a track record of lying. Where was she?

[00:54:12] I never saw her come on a call and say, yeah, that was me. I gave him a big hug and thanks to him. Who is this woman? Those stories. I'm aware of the time and I want to make sure that we cover, is there anything else that

[00:54:24] we didn't cover that you really want people to know about MLMs or wellness coaching? Anyone, like if people are listening who might still be under the spell? You know, one thing that I think is super important is, you know, know what the laws

[00:54:36] are and like, and definitely do your own research and look at the external resources. One of the things that we were told and I would tell others because I really believed it is,

[00:54:48] you know, of course, if something is going to have that big of an effect, it's going to threaten big pharma. So of course, big pharma would pay bloggers and independent people to write terrible things about us on the internet. And I'm like, oh yeah, well that makes sense.

[00:55:02] If we're so amazing, of course, you know, the rich companies, but wait a second, these MLMs are billion dollar million or billion dollar companies. They are big guys. They are corporations, rich corporations.

[00:55:15] So information control is going to be what they're going to use to keep us, to keep our blinders on, but know what the laws are. You know, for example, you're not supposed to make medical claims that is clear black and white.

[00:55:30] You're not allowed to make medical claims in order to sell a product that is illegal. Yet these many little figures, these like, I think I said it was like a crack in with these little tentacles and all the gurus within the company are these tentacles and

[00:55:45] they're just their own like company, right? They're not, they're not the organization. They're their own independent thing. So they're doing all of these things. Like they have their own websites with an alphabetical list of every potential ailment

[00:55:59] that you could have with a clip or a soundbite about how these products or this community helped somebody with Alzheimer's, Asperger's, autoimmune disease and go all the way down to from A to Z.

[00:56:14] So that is making a medical claim that is using emotion and anecdote to sell a product. And of course the reading between the lines is that it will help you with that disease. That's what they're saying. And that is against the law.

[00:56:30] I mean, they're outsourcing their advertisement too. Yeah. Huge red flag. And then the testimonials become their advertisement, really. Or we're just having a conversation, you know? I'm just telling my story.

[00:56:41] So I know when we first spoke we were going to even do like a longer thing because there's so many things about your particular experience and other sort of correlations that you're observing but we don't have a lot of proof for yet.

[00:56:54] Do you want to share any of those speculations or allegations that you see as some of the things that could also be going on in these companies just from your sleuthing? The TMZ portion of our podcast.

[00:57:06] I just like to say, keep an eye out with these organizations of the other subgroups within the groups because a lot of times those little subgroups can be a little bit culty. Personal development, coaching, conspiracy theory groups, Christian prayer groups, all

[00:57:24] these little groups within the group could potentially entrench victims even deeper and further and add to that sunk cost fallacy and that dependence. Very good point. Yeah, well I really like respect how you've gotten yourself out and educated yourself

[00:57:42] and now that you're speaking and advocating and speaking out against commercial cults, wellness scams, potentially even labor trafficking and writing a book. What's the name of your book? The working title is the MLM Recovery Handbook because that's something that I was looking for.

[00:57:59] I was looking for MLM recovery. I found a lot of great cult recovery, but the commercial cult experience has its unique flavor. Yeah, what are the distinctions do you think? Well it flies under the radar because people just think it's a company, it's a business.

[00:58:17] There isn't some of this totally, the abuse is a lot more overt. It relates more to the financial abuse and the self-esteem. There are some culty religious aspects to, I think every one of these MLMs has a culty religious aspect to it as well.

[00:58:37] But it's not like a full blown religious cult or a doomsday cult where obviously that's going to be a lot different. You're not living in a compound, you're being a boss babe at home.

[00:58:47] I'll just share two things with you that I think that you could pull from for your recovery or reference or whatever. I'm sure you have this already, Jarette's book? Writing to Wrecking Journal. Is that the journal? Yes, the journal.

[00:58:58] That was something I should have mentioned because I went on to Jarette's Writing to Wrecking Workshop. That was a huge piece of my healing. She was so wonderful. Is she the best? Yeah, and I'm going to be doing a co-leading of Writing to Wrecking with Jarette. Amazing.

[00:59:15] I finally got to meet her for the first time at the I Got Out, which I hope you can come to next year, the first I Got Out Story Jam. This is a book that I've carried around for like six years. It's called Power Versus Force.

[00:59:25] Pretty good book. I think it's fair to read it because a lot of what this guy talks about calibrates to energy, but he talks about the things that make us susceptible to lower energy and how to calibrate.

[00:59:35] Anyway, it's an interesting book, but he talks about the charm of all false prophets is persuasiveness, but use of the testing method. The gist of it is false gurus also make people go weak in a dramatic fashion.

[00:59:48] So if you calibrate to certain energies, he talks about how it can drain your energy. That's how a lot of people felt closer to Keith Ranieri when we were around him. So this is how this resonated with me.

[00:59:59] It is though the universe considers spiritual rape an especially grave error. So it basically gets into like when you follow these people, you think you're going into it with this positive thing, but really it's draining you of your energy.

[01:00:12] And I think if you subscribe to a soul, Keith Ranieri was described as a soul collector. And I think on a level you can feel the energy. I could feel my life force dimming the longer I stand in.

[01:00:23] And I could feel it come back in the last five, six years with even how I informed everything. Yeah, oh my God. So when I read that, that caption really resonated with me because I felt spiritually raped.

[01:00:34] And I didn't use spiritual words before that, but it was the first time something like that resonated with me like that. I was like, oh my God, that's what happened to me.

[01:00:42] And a lot of people, they just remain on the periphery and they don't get it to that extent. And then they're looking at me and they're like, well, I don't do those things. And I just, you know, it's gaslighting and victim blaming.

[01:00:58] We had an extreme dose of it. They're getting probably lesser doses of it because they're not, they weren't all in. We went towards a force that was dark thinking it was light. Does that resonate with you?

[01:01:07] Yeah, no, I was just thinking about like why we were doing this specifically, because we've done three other MLM episodes now with Emily Lynn Paulson and Roberta Blevins and Douglas Brooks. What specifically struck me about your story was, you know, the pipeline, the mother seeking

[01:01:24] mother to coaching to an MLM pipeline and how that vulnerability was used to their gain. And also how the guru aspect within the parenting space was exploited and how just really dangerous that is when a public figure is in an MLM.

[01:01:44] And then also saying, of course, it's not an MLM. A health club. It's a health club. Personal development. Yeah, ours wasn't an MLM. It was simply the silence of joy. Sorry about silence. It was the silence. That was a good Freudian slip. Oh my God, Sarah.

[01:01:55] The silencing of your joy. Oh my God. No, it was called the science of joy. Oh my God, but that was the best Freudian slip I've ever heard. That was the best Freudian slip I've ever made. It did suppress and silence my joy.

[01:02:01] But isn't it great to be joyful again and get your life back? Yeah. And you know, when I look back on those videos of myself and I'm still in the middle of my life, I'm still in the middle of my life.

[01:02:05] I'm still in the middle of my life. I'm still in the middle of my life. But it's not, it's like this, I'm like this, I'm like the shell and I can see it. I can see it in my eyes.

[01:02:24] Well, what's great is that so many of those shells never refill. You know, like to be a full person again and not an empty shell is, you know, not everyone has the opportunity to become a person again. So I'm glad that you did.

[01:02:37] I'm glad that you reached out. I'm glad your husband recommended watching the vow. I'm glad you're turning this into something positive too. And you're doing it well. So your subtext is great. Listen to it.

[01:02:48] Yeah, I just know it's such a terrible, terrible time in our world right now. And that's been really hard because it can make me feel like what do, you know, my story isn't worth anything in the grand scheme of things.

[01:03:07] And then this voice, my inner voice says, but that's how these guys keep getting away with this. As the world becomes more fraught and more divisive, that's how these things thrive because people are seeking. Great way of putting it.

[01:03:22] I also felt if my pride and my embarrassment is the worst thing I have to go through, when I just transcend that and I can do that through telling the story, like it's cathartic in that way, right?

[01:03:32] Because then you look back and go, the worst thing about my life was being embarrassed for making a mistake. And then once I was able to kind of free my mind of that, the path kind of opened up.

[01:03:42] And it's also important, like, I don't know, Sarah and I have talked about this, like you have to really champion people are doing the same thing, right? We need help because the alternative is well organized.

[01:03:53] It's got to be more organized and supported and at least the counterbalance to that behavior. Thank you so much for your time. Where can our audience find you, your sub stack and your Instagram? My Instagram is, and my sub stack are Brandi Hadfield, B-R-A-N-D-I-E, Hadfield with a D.

[01:04:11] We'll put those in our show notes and when your episode comes out, maybe we can do a live Zoom with our Patreon listeners and talk more about maybe we can even name the names because Patreon's private. Thank you so much for your time, Brandi.

[01:04:24] Please keep in touch and keep up the good work. Thank you, Brandi. Thank you. Like what you hear, do you? Give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes. Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there. Smash that subscribe button.

[01:04:40] You know you want to. Well, that was our episode with Brandi Hadfield. Please do check her out on Instagram and give her some support there. She is fighting a big fight. And she's having fun with it and I love all her little videos that she goes off.

[01:04:58] It's similar, like the culture is similar. It's just around a product, not a person. Right. Right. So if you're quite fascinated with this particular topic, we could probably do a limited series on this specific organization and all the different culty offshoots that are part of it.

[01:05:16] So we hope that you've enjoyed it as much as we did. Happy holidays, everybody. Thank you for supporting us here. See some of you over on Patreon. And check out our sponsors. Check out our sponsors to get some of our fabulous products through them, which supports

[01:05:30] us because supporting our sponsors supports us. And they have lots of great options for stocking stuffers or presents for under the Hanukkah bush or whatever you celebrate. Hanukkah bush. Take care, everybody. See you next week. Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[01:05:43] I'm hanging on to the wind in my love. If I let go of it all, I could leave, but I know I won't. Thanks for listening, everyone. We're heading over to patreon.com slash a littlebitculty now to discuss this episode.

[01:06:08] In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely for general informational, educational and entertainment purposes. It's not intended as a substitute for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice. For cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world,

[01:06:25] check out a littlebitculty.com slash culty resources and don't miss Sarah's TED talk called How Cult Literate Are You? A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer

[01:06:39] Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard Jess Temple-Tardy. Our show writer is Holly Zedra and our theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant.