Justice Denied: The JonBenét Ramsey Case and the Cult of Groupthink

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:30] Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:38] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:49] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult.

[00:00:57] If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out.

[00:01:02] We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

[00:01:15] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

[00:01:22] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:39] Hello everybody and welcome back to this week's episode on season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:44] So today's show approaches culty thinking from a slightly different angle.

[00:01:48] Last spring, when we were at CrimeCon, we met a fascinating guest in the green room.

[00:01:53] When he shared his harrowing and highly tragic story with us, I turned to him and said,

[00:01:59] I wish that your story had a culty angle to it. And he said, well, I believe that there is a culty angle.

[00:02:06] So today we're discussing the cult of investigation and groupthink around policing.

[00:02:12] Our guest, John Ramsey, has firsthand experience with us. He's the father of John Bonet Ramsey.

[00:02:19] John Bonet's case is insanely high profile, so we won't be getting into all the details.

[00:02:24] But to refresh your memory, she was a six-year-old girl who was found murdered in her Boulder, Colorado home in 1996.

[00:02:30] Unfortunately, her case was never solved.

[00:02:33] From the get-go, DNA evidence pointed to an unknown male intruder as John Bonet's killer.

[00:02:38] Still, the police focused their suspicion on the Ramsey family for years.

[00:02:42] Media and public opinion ran with these suspicions, muddying the facts around this case even more.

[00:02:47] John and Patsy Ramsey weren't officially cleared as suspects until 2008, 12 years after their daughter's murder.

[00:02:54] And as we all know, the more time passes, the harder it gets to solve a crime.

[00:02:58] Many would argue John Bonet's case was mishandled from day one.

[00:03:02] John Ramsey is here to examine how tunnel vision and culty thinking can hinder police investigations for decades.

[00:03:08] It's a fascinating topic and we look forward to his perspective.

[00:03:10] For any listeners who aren't aware of this story, what happened to John Bonet is beyond horrifying, unimaginable.

[00:03:18] Anyone who might be triggered should skip this one.

[00:03:21] Please take care of yourselves.

[00:03:22] That said, let's meet our guest.

[00:03:40] Well, first of all, welcome to our podcast, A Little Bit Culty.

[00:03:44] Well, thank you.

[00:03:45] It's nice to be here.

[00:03:47] I'm sure you do.

[00:03:48] In fact, we know that you do a lot of interviews and you meet a lot of people.

[00:03:52] And just to remind you why you're here today, that we met at CrimeCon in the green room and we got to sit beside each other and drink coffee, the three of us.

[00:04:02] And I personally remember just my heart going out to you and your family and wanting to spend time with you and hear more about what had happened from your perspective.

[00:04:13] And I said to you, gosh, I wish there was a cult element to your story so that we could have you on a little bit culty.

[00:04:19] I remember that.

[00:04:20] Right?

[00:04:21] And you said, well, I think that there is.

[00:04:24] There's the abuse of power within the police.

[00:04:27] Yeah.

[00:04:28] And that's something that we didn't know about.

[00:04:31] And anyway, here you are.

[00:04:33] So that's the angle we're hoping to focus on with you today.

[00:04:36] All right.

[00:04:36] And not obviously relive.

[00:04:39] Yeah, we don't want to relive.

[00:04:40] Everything that you've gone through.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:42] Well, and that's a good topic because I've learned a lot about the justice system and the policing system and the flaws that I think are there and the risks for citizens.

[00:04:58] So why don't we just go back in time a little bit?

[00:05:03] Not to the very beginning.

[00:05:04] But we'd love for you to elaborate just to start on what we talked about in that green room in terms of the things that went wrong and starting with the very inexperienced team that were dealing with the homicide and how the mishandling began.

[00:05:21] And then where the abuse started would go from there.

[00:05:25] Okay.

[00:05:25] Well, you know, we called the police immediately that morning.

[00:05:30] And one so-called detective showed up.

[00:05:34] Well, actually, the first person that came was a uniformed officer.

[00:05:38] He did a cursory look through the house.

[00:05:41] And then a so-called detective showed up and was with us all morning.

[00:05:48] And, you know, you call the police, you expect them to know what they're doing.

[00:05:53] And that's your source of help.

[00:05:57] And I was very focused on how do I get my daughter back?

[00:06:00] The note said she'd been kidnapped.

[00:06:02] They wanted money.

[00:06:04] And so my entire focus was on, okay, I got to hear back.

[00:06:08] I got to keep my wits about me.

[00:06:10] So that was my focus.

[00:06:12] And this woman detective who turned out to be a little bit dingy later made observations of me that she reported in her report,

[00:06:25] which if you just read them on the surface without knowing why I was doing things,

[00:06:30] he would say, well, yeah, she's not acting right based on this report.

[00:06:35] And that was their whole case was that we didn't act right that morning.

[00:06:39] For example, she reported I was casually going through the mail waiting for the kidnapper to call.

[00:06:46] There was a pile of mail envelopes on our doorstep, and I was looking for another communication from the kidnapper.

[00:06:53] She should have been doing that.

[00:06:54] But I was looking through the mail quickly to see if there was any other communication from this kidnapper.

[00:07:01] She also reported that 10 o'clock came when the call was supposed to happen from the kidnapper,

[00:07:07] and I didn't go berserk when it didn't happen.

[00:07:10] Well, the note said, I will call you tomorrow.

[00:07:13] I didn't know at that time whether tomorrow was, in fact, tomorrow or the day we were in.

[00:07:19] So when 10 o'clock came and went, I thought, oh, my gosh, I've got to wait another 24 hours because he did say tomorrow.

[00:07:26] And so she thought that was strange.

[00:07:27] I didn't go crazy and beat my head against the wall when 10 o'clock came.

[00:07:32] We didn't get a call that day because I didn't know if it was to be today that we were in or tomorrow, as the note said.

[00:07:39] So things like that were misinterpreted.

[00:07:41] And if you just read the report, you'd say, well, that is kind of strange.

[00:07:45] He didn't do that, and he was casually going through the mail and stuff like that.

[00:07:49] So that started the whole…

[00:07:51] Well, it's not evidence either.

[00:07:52] Oh, no, no, it's in their whole case.

[00:07:55] We were told by the district attorney several years later that the whole case was based on the fact that we didn't act right that morning.

[00:08:03] And just bizarre.

[00:08:05] So that started it off wrong.

[00:08:08] Right.

[00:08:08] And we didn't know it at the time, but it set in their mind, the police department, oh, this is easy.

[00:08:14] The parents did.

[00:08:15] We don't know which one, but it was one of them because they're not acting right.

[00:08:21] In fact, this so-called detective who'd never investigated a homicide young lady went on national TV.

[00:08:30] And so I knew it was the father because I saw it in his eyes.

[00:08:33] So the whole thing was a mess for me.

[00:08:38] And the strategy became, well, we're going to bring intense pressure on both parents.

[00:08:44] The innocent one will turn the guilty one in, and the case will be solved.

[00:08:47] We know it's the parents.

[00:08:48] We just don't know which one because neither one of them acted right.

[00:08:51] The other thing they didn't realize was I lost my oldest daughter, Beth, in a car accident several years before.

[00:08:59] And I got a call middle of the afternoon from my brother that Beth has been killed in a car accident.

[00:09:06] There was nothing I could do.

[00:09:08] I couldn't get her to the best doctors.

[00:09:09] I couldn't go to her bedside.

[00:09:12] It was over.

[00:09:13] This was not over.

[00:09:15] I was very focused on getting my daughter back.

[00:09:18] So I had to do everything I could to keep my wits about me and get her back.

[00:09:24] And so having that experience of your daughter's gone, sorry, to your daughter's missing, two different scenarios.

[00:09:34] And I wanted to get her back.

[00:09:36] I thought I could.

[00:09:37] I really thought we'd get her back.

[00:09:39] And so if I didn't act right that morning, sorry.

[00:09:44] Yeah.

[00:09:45] And who's to say what's right?

[00:09:47] I know.

[00:09:48] There's no book written on it.

[00:09:49] Also, when you're in shock, too.

[00:09:51] I don't know.

[00:09:52] Exactly.

[00:09:52] And that's the other thing I've realized, that you don't cry when you're in shock.

[00:09:57] At least I don't.

[00:09:59] When Beth, my oldest daughter, was killed, I was in my office, got my call from my brother.

[00:10:04] I was angry.

[00:10:06] And I was angry at God.

[00:10:07] Why, God, did you let this happen to this beautiful, wonderful young person who had so much future ahead of her?

[00:10:15] I didn't cry.

[00:10:17] I cried for years afterwards after, you know, you process things.

[00:10:22] But immediately, you don't.

[00:10:23] You're in shock.

[00:10:25] And the same with when John Manet was discovered missing.

[00:10:29] We were in shock.

[00:10:31] But I thought I could get her back.

[00:10:33] If I kept my wits about me, did whatever I could do.

[00:10:38] And so anyway, if that's not acting right, then it'll be it.

[00:10:43] But that's so frustrating.

[00:10:45] That's a horrible reason to convict somebody in the public opinion, which is what they did with the media.

[00:10:52] You know, they released a lot of misleading information and false information to incriminate us.

[00:10:59] And that brought intense pressure on us because the media jumped all over it.

[00:11:04] What was that like for you?

[00:11:06] Well, it was it didn't matter.

[00:11:09] We'd lost our child by that point.

[00:11:12] We didn't care.

[00:11:13] I mean, whatever.

[00:11:13] It almost became a diversion from grieving in that we had to deal with it.

[00:11:20] And how do we get our youngest son, Burke, to school without him being photographed and to be safe?

[00:11:27] And that it almost became something you had to deal with rather than just grieve.

[00:11:34] And so in a way, it was a diversion from grieving.

[00:11:37] It didn't matter what they were saying about us.

[00:11:41] Obviously, it didn't put pressure on us to confess because obviously we didn't do that.

[00:11:48] But looking back on it, you think, man, that was bad.

[00:11:52] But at the time, it just it didn't matter.

[00:11:55] We were so as Patsy said, I cannot be hurt any deeper than I've been hurt by the loss of John Bonnet to the media frenzy.

[00:12:04] It didn't matter.

[00:12:05] Well, it seems like at this point, I imagine there's a lot of variables at play.

[00:12:09] The Boulder Police Department has made a pretty bold assertion based on observation, not evidence.

[00:12:19] And it seems like their incentives are off and running.

[00:12:24] And we know how cognitive dissonance works and how you want to make things work.

[00:12:28] And you're on the other end of that.

[00:12:29] Right.

[00:12:30] Can you comment on that?

[00:12:31] Well, you know, we we we interestingly that next day, I had a message really to me that one of my coworkers had an urgent message to get to me.

[00:12:43] And of course, I was not talking to anybody on the phone or anything, but I said, OK, I'll call him or take the call.

[00:12:50] And he said, John, I was given a message from inside the system to get to you.

[00:12:55] And that message is you need to get the best defense attorney and get your hands on because they're apt to convict you.

[00:13:02] They think you killed your daughter.

[00:13:04] And I was in shock.

[00:13:05] It's like, holy mackerel.

[00:13:07] I can't believe it.

[00:13:08] But again, it didn't matter.

[00:13:10] It's like, OK, whatever.

[00:13:12] And we were with in a friend's home at that point.

[00:13:16] And police were there and talking to us and, you know, interviewing us.

[00:13:20] Media was outside cameras.

[00:13:23] And the police said, well, we need you to come down to the station.

[00:13:26] We said, well, you come here.

[00:13:28] You know, please come here.

[00:13:29] Patsy was medicated and in bed.

[00:13:33] And I was in shock, I'm sure.

[00:13:35] Oh, no, we need you to come down to the station.

[00:13:38] We can't do that.

[00:13:39] We don't want to be out in front of all this media.

[00:13:42] And, you know, we're safe here in our friend's home.

[00:13:45] You please come here.

[00:13:46] They wouldn't do it.

[00:13:47] So a friend of mine who was an attorney happened to be there, had worked for the district attorney's office there in Boulder, knew the police and the lack of capabilities.

[00:13:56] And said, John, would you allow me to do some things here that I think are necessary?

[00:14:01] I said, absolutely.

[00:14:01] Absolutely.

[00:14:02] And that's one of the lessons I learned is you can't make good decisions when you're in shock.

[00:14:07] Turn your life over to a trusted friend, which he was and is.

[00:14:11] So he went to the police that were trying to get us to come to the station and said, look, time out.

[00:14:16] We're not going to do that.

[00:14:17] We'll get back to you.

[00:14:20] And the next morning, he introduced me to my attorney.

[00:14:24] And I hadn't told anybody I'd gotten that call, but I had that in my mind that maybe I need an attorney.

[00:14:31] I don't know.

[00:14:31] So Mike brought one in and said, I think this is important.

[00:14:35] In fact, he introduced me to two attorneys.

[00:14:37] And I said, well, what do I need two attorneys for?

[00:14:39] He said, well, one attorney can't represent both parties, you and your wife.

[00:14:43] So each of you needs an attorney.

[00:14:45] OK.

[00:14:45] So with that, that's how the attorneys got involved, which was actually a wonderful thing to have happen,

[00:14:52] because I've learned that if you're guilty and charged, you need an attorney to make sure you get a fair trial.

[00:14:59] If you're innocent, you need a damn good attorney.

[00:15:02] And the police are out to get you because it's fraught with risk.

[00:15:07] So that kind of started the mistrust of the police with us.

[00:15:13] And we're still there.

[00:15:13] Well, no, we want to talk to him.

[00:15:15] You know, we don't have anything to hide.

[00:15:17] And our attorney said, well, look, a good defense attorney would lose his defense attorney badge if he let his client talk to the police when they think he's guilty.

[00:15:28] She don't talk to him.

[00:15:29] He said, look, you think my client's guilty?

[00:15:31] Prove it.

[00:15:31] We're not talking to you.

[00:15:32] And that was their position.

[00:15:34] You cannot talk to the police.

[00:15:35] Of course, they wouldn't let us later talk to the media either.

[00:15:38] So did you not talking to the police?

[00:15:40] Did that make it worse for you that they now thought you weren't cooperating?

[00:15:44] Well, sure.

[00:15:45] The police, if you get an attorney, it's automatic you're guilty.

[00:15:49] Otherwise, why do you need an attorney, which is nonsense?

[00:15:53] And we wanted to talk to the police.

[00:15:55] We had nothing to hide.

[00:15:57] And I thought, well, if we talked to them, at least they would have some level of discernment and realize that, you know, we loved our children.

[00:16:05] And there's no background to indicate that this could have happened the way they think it happened.

[00:16:14] So we eventually talked to the police quite a bit.

[00:16:19] In fact, we had a big interview set up in Atlanta.

[00:16:22] And by this time, this was – well, I tell you what precipitated the problem.

[00:16:29] Our attorneys told the police early on, our new attorneys, who are wonderful men, by the way, very committed to justice,

[00:16:39] ask the police for records of the interviews they'd done with us prior to their representation,

[00:16:45] which had been several days we'd talked to them in our friend's home.

[00:16:50] And they wouldn't give them to us, wouldn't give the records to the police, which they have to do.

[00:16:56] But they wouldn't give those records of the police interviews to our attorneys.

[00:17:01] And so that kind of upset our attorneys because that's not right and legal.

[00:17:07] And then – and this was unknown to us – they refused to release John Monnet's body until we consented to an interview at the station.

[00:17:17] What?

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:19] And that made our attorneys go nuts.

[00:17:23] And they didn't tell us this.

[00:17:25] At that point, we were working on getting John Monnet back to Atlanta and buried in our family plot where my oldest daughter was buried.

[00:17:34] And that was our focus.

[00:17:35] And we didn't know about the withholding of her body for burial by the police.

[00:17:41] That got resolved by the district attorney when our attorneys called and said,

[00:17:46] this is absurd and cruel and not right.

[00:17:52] And so they did release John Monnet's body.

[00:17:56] We had a burial and ceremony in Atlanta, which is our home for years.

[00:18:02] And so we went back to Boulder for two reasons.

[00:18:05] One, for Burke to finish his school year to try to make his life as normal as possible.

[00:18:10] He was in the fifth grade.

[00:18:11] And the other was to find this monster, help find this monster.

[00:18:15] And so we went back fully prepared to sit down with the police.

[00:18:20] And we did give them everything they asked for.

[00:18:22] They asked for handwriting samples.

[00:18:25] They asked for hair samples, pubic hair samples, blood samples, everything.

[00:18:29] We gave them everything.

[00:18:30] It was Visa card records.

[00:18:32] We gave them everything they asked for over a year.

[00:18:37] But our attorney was like, you can't risk talking to the police because they don't know what they're doing.

[00:18:42] They're inexperienced.

[00:18:43] And that's dangerous.

[00:18:46] We're like, that's crazy.

[00:18:49] But they had a retired Orange County, California detective in the room with us.

[00:18:56] And he said, look, there are more innocent people in prison today for one reason.

[00:19:02] And that is their attorneys let them talk to the police.

[00:19:06] That's a fact.

[00:19:07] Well, OK, we won't rely on your guidance.

[00:19:12] So, you know, that became an adversarial relationship almost from the beginning because of not only what we knew the police thought,

[00:19:22] but also this withholding her body for burial and that kind of absurd behavior.

[00:19:30] So we were skeptical but still thinking, well, these people aren't stupid.

[00:19:34] Turns out they kind of were.

[00:19:35] They would see that we're just normal people.

[00:19:40] And we wouldn't do this.

[00:19:42] This is horrible.

[00:19:44] We want to talk to them.

[00:19:46] And our attorneys were pretty adamant.

[00:19:48] Nope.

[00:19:49] They think you're illy.

[00:19:50] Let them prove it.

[00:19:51] And the problem became for the police that in January of that following year, a month after Kaminé was murdered,

[00:19:58] they recovered DNA evidence on her clothing from an unidentified male.

[00:20:04] That became a big problem for the police because it conflicted with their conclusion.

[00:20:09] It was evidence.

[00:20:10] And it was evidence that had to be either explained away or taken seriously.

[00:20:15] And, of course, the police spent the next six months, didn't tell anybody that there was this unidentified DNA,

[00:20:22] including didn't tell the DA.

[00:20:23] They tried to explain it away.

[00:20:25] We got to find an innocent explanation for this unidentified male DNA.

[00:20:30] And as one experienced district attorney told me later, years later, said,

[00:20:35] I've never, ever seen the police try to explain away unidentified male DNA in a sexual assault case.

[00:20:43] It's absurd.

[00:20:45] So anyway.

[00:20:46] And then, of course, we learned much later that their whole case was that we didn't act right that morning,

[00:20:52] despite the evidence, and that they turned down help from people that offered it.

[00:20:59] That was the real second tragedy in our case.

[00:21:03] Denver police called them within a day, apparently, and said,

[00:21:08] we'll provide two experienced homicide detectives full-time at your disposal at our expense.

[00:21:14] And they said, nah, we don't need that.

[00:21:16] We knew it, did it?

[00:21:18] That makes me mad.

[00:21:19] Oh, my God.

[00:21:19] No, it's sickening.

[00:21:21] And, you know, I've never criticized the police for not knowing what they're doing.

[00:21:24] They were small-town young police officers, newly admitted detectives, big egos, but no experience.

[00:21:33] They didn't have a homicide department.

[00:21:35] The detective that worked on our case sort of worked on it for 25 years was an auto theft investigator,

[00:21:42] made homicide detective on our case.

[00:21:46] He was, I don't know, a year or two ago, recommended for dismissal by the citizen review board,

[00:21:54] along with four of his other associates, for poor performance.

[00:21:58] So he's gone, which is great.

[00:22:00] But that was the level of competence that was working on our case.

[00:22:04] And what it criticized the police for, for those actions back then,

[00:22:08] was you've refused help from people that help and knew what they're doing.

[00:22:12] You don't know what you're doing.

[00:22:13] I don't blame you for that.

[00:22:14] I understand it.

[00:22:15] It's a blessing for your community.

[00:22:16] You don't have a homicide department.

[00:22:19] But to refuse help from people that could have helped in the beginning was unconscionable.

[00:22:25] I was told by experienced detectives that this case,

[00:22:29] had they been on it with experience in the beginning, would have been easy to solve.

[00:22:34] Hey, Calti listeners.

[00:22:36] As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together.

[00:22:39] And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us.

[00:22:44] That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self-Publishing Agency, or TSPA.

[00:22:50] Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out,

[00:22:55] the Self-Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline.

[00:22:59] You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world.

[00:23:04] So if you're like us and you have a story or a message that's burning to be told,

[00:23:08] we highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner.

[00:23:11] They offer everything you need from expert editing and eye-catching cover design

[00:23:15] to marketing and distribution strategies that really make a difference.

[00:23:19] They make the entire process seamless and inspiring,

[00:23:22] so you can focus on what matters most, telling your story.

[00:23:25] Go to theselfpublishingagency.com.

[00:23:27] That's the-s-e-l-f-publishingagency.com

[00:23:32] to start your very own publishing journey today.

[00:23:35] Enjoy.

[00:23:43] This podcast wouldn't even exist without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:23:48] Come find us on Patreon.

[00:23:50] We are at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:23:53] Go there for bonus episodes, live Q&As with past guests,

[00:23:57] exclusive content, and lots of other goodies.

[00:23:59] Subscribe now and help us keep this podcast going.

[00:24:02] That's patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:24:04] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culti sponsors.

[00:24:08] And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

[00:24:14] Hey there, friend.

[00:24:15] I see you.

[00:24:16] I see you need a little break from all the crowded stores

[00:24:19] and the hubbub of the holiday season, the endless gift lists.

[00:24:22] I think it's time to restore your zen

[00:24:24] and embrace the natural power of cannabis this holiday season with Vaya.

[00:24:29] You too can unwind and recharge with Vaya,

[00:24:32] whether you're enjoying a quiet evening at home,

[00:24:34] with some eggnog or maybe some latkes,

[00:24:37] whatever you're doing embracing this festive cheer.

[00:24:39] Vaya's premium THC and THC-free gummies will help you find your perfect holiday balance.

[00:24:47] I personally have my favorites depending on whether I'm with my children or not with my children.

[00:24:52] Vaya is well-renowned for their award-winning THC and THC-free gummies and vapes,

[00:24:58] THCA flower, soothing topicals, and calming drops,

[00:25:02] all crafted with the highest quality hemp source from trusted, independently-owned American farms.

[00:25:07] That is so cool.

[00:25:08] And the best part, Vaya legally ships to nearly all states in the U.S.

[00:25:11] in discreet packaging, just so your neighbors don't see,

[00:25:14] directly to your door with a worry-free guarantee.

[00:25:17] But you could also say to them,

[00:25:18] hey, there's no THC in them, or there is THC in them,

[00:25:20] but, you know, it's legal, so don't judge me.

[00:25:21] This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

[00:25:24] If you're 21+, head to VayaHemp.com and use the code CULTI to receive 15% off.

[00:25:29] That's V-I-I-A Hemp.com.

[00:25:32] And use code CULTI at checkout.

[00:25:35] Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:25:37] This holiday season, enhance your everyday with Vaya.

[00:25:40] The holidays have arrived at DraftKings Casino, and so has the ultimate festive fun.

[00:25:44] This season, Holiday on the House brings you everything you've been wishing for.

[00:25:48] Exciting table games, massive jackpots, and the must-play slot of the season.

[00:25:52] Jingle Bells Power Reels.

[00:25:54] Treat yourself to a winning holiday at DraftKings Casino.

[00:25:58] DraftKings is offering a warm welcome to new players

[00:26:00] with $100 instantly in casino credits with just a $10 wager.

[00:26:04] Plus, everyone can get in on the action with a holiday reward every week.

[00:26:07] So sign up with code CULTI because the holiday cheer is here.

[00:26:11] Only on DraftKings Casino.

[00:26:13] Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

[00:26:15] In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling.

[00:26:18] Call 888-78-977-777 or visit ccpg.org.

[00:26:24] Please play responsibly.

[00:26:25] 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania,

[00:26:29] West Virginia only.

[00:26:30] Void in Ontario.

[00:26:32] Eligibility restrictions apply.

[00:26:33] New customers only.

[00:26:34] Opt-in required.

[00:26:35] Casino credits are non-withdrawable and expire in 168 hours.

[00:26:39] Terms at casino.draftkings.com slash promos.

[00:26:46] You've heard from our sponsors.

[00:26:48] Now let's get back to a little bit CULTI, shall we?

[00:26:51] And as you mentioned in the green room that day we met, there's been a consistent abuse of power within the system.

[00:27:00] The group think within the system, they decided that you or Patsy were guilty and didn't pursue all these different leads.

[00:27:07] How did that abuse of power and that – it's almost like an ego.

[00:27:11] Oh, it's big ego.

[00:27:13] Huge egos.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:14] Big egos.

[00:27:15] No experience.

[00:27:17] But we hired our own detectives initially fairly quickly.

[00:27:22] And we'd get calls.

[00:27:25] Our attorney would get calls frequently from people.

[00:27:28] Hey, I called the police.

[00:27:29] I have information.

[00:27:30] They won't call me back.

[00:27:32] I really want somebody to have this information.

[00:27:34] I think it'll help.

[00:27:35] We even had the district attorney, Boulder district attorney, call our attorneys and say, look, I've got this lead that looks pretty significant.

[00:27:45] Could you have your investigators follow up on it?

[00:27:49] I don't think the police will.

[00:27:52] And so that was going on all the time.

[00:27:55] You know, I tried to call the police.

[00:27:56] They won't call me back.

[00:27:57] So is it fair to say that the optics of it are the offices in the Boulder Police Department are incentivized to protect the office even after the people that were there initially are gone?

[00:28:12] So they inherit the case and they're incentivized to protect their office in spite of pressure from higher offices, your detectives, et cetera?

[00:28:22] Yeah, it's possible.

[00:28:24] Yeah, certainly in the beginning that was the case.

[00:28:27] You know, we made up our mind.

[00:28:29] We know who did this.

[00:28:31] Well, I guess also to add more to that, if you have new people in authority, what's their incentive to not go, oh, they made mistakes.

[00:28:39] Why can't we just go correct?

[00:28:41] Do you know what I mean?

[00:28:41] You know, there's been five police chiefs.

[00:28:44] Yeah, I remember you said five.

[00:28:46] And I met with every one of them.

[00:28:48] Wow.

[00:28:48] At my request, not their request.

[00:28:50] Yes.

[00:28:51] And the last couple, well, the one, the second police chief was part of the cult.

[00:28:58] You know, we know who did it.

[00:29:00] Don't confuse me with evidence mentality.

[00:29:02] The last police chief I've met with a couple times, he was interim chief for a while and brought in from the outside, which I thought was huge.

[00:29:12] You can't take somebody from a dysfunctional culture and expect it to change and put them in leadership.

[00:29:18] So bringing in somebody from the outside was a big thing.

[00:29:21] A good guy.

[00:29:22] I liked him.

[00:29:23] Very open.

[00:29:24] And I told him the same thing.

[00:29:26] I said, you didn't create this mess, but man, you can fix it.

[00:29:29] And we'll do whatever we can to help you over that.

[00:29:32] And so we have a good open communication with him now.

[00:29:37] He doesn't have the resources to deal with it.

[00:29:40] And again, it's not a criticism.

[00:29:42] It's just a small town police department.

[00:29:43] Five of their detectives under the previous, the number two police chief were recommended for dismissal termination by the citizen review board due to poor investigative performance.

[00:29:58] Five of their detectives, I think they only had five or six.

[00:30:01] Three were put on a performance improvement plan.

[00:30:03] One resigned and the one that was our detective on our case retired.

[00:30:09] So they didn't have any detectives.

[00:30:11] In fact, the police chief before the current police chief, we said, hey, we get calls.

[00:30:16] We get leads.

[00:30:17] We get information.

[00:30:18] What did we do with them?

[00:30:19] Who do we send them to now?

[00:30:20] And she's, well, just send them to me.

[00:30:22] So she didn't have any detectives at that point, as far as we could tell.

[00:30:25] So what we've advocated strongly is, look, the DNA technology is so far advanced now that there are, in fact, we were told by the FBI, I don't know, a year ago.

[00:30:41] They said, look, the government, the FBI, the Boulder police, they don't have the latest technology.

[00:30:46] We don't have the latest technology that's out there, but there is amazing technology out there with a few of these cutting-edge laboratories.

[00:30:56] That's where this evidence needs to go to.

[00:30:59] And I met with one of them not too long ago.

[00:31:02] And they said, you know, we can do amazing things with DNA.

[00:31:07] We need a fresh sample because what we do is we get a really good sample based on our technology.

[00:31:15] And then we do the familial genealogy research, which is kind of a backwards family tree.

[00:31:22] They find somebody that looks similar, not quite exactly a match.

[00:31:27] And they look at their family history and their family tree.

[00:31:30] And did they have a relative that lived in Boulder, Colorado in 1996?

[00:31:35] Oh, yeah, here's a guy.

[00:31:37] And they've solved amazing old cold cases using that technology.

[00:31:42] So that's been what we've advocated for a good while.

[00:31:46] The labs are willing to do it.

[00:31:49] In fact, they're willing to do it at no cost.

[00:31:51] But they have to be asked by the police.

[00:31:54] And the latest thing the police told me was, this new chief, well, we don't think DNA technology is there yet.

[00:32:00] We've got to wait until it improves, which is absolutely wrong.

[00:32:06] How is it even their choice?

[00:32:08] Well, that's one of the flaws in our system, I've learned.

[00:32:12] You know, the police departments, and it's kind of how it evolved.

[00:32:16] You know, Newtown starts out west.

[00:32:19] And, hey, we need a lawman here.

[00:32:21] Let's get Wyatt Earp to come in here, be our sheriff.

[00:32:24] And so yet we have 18,000 of those jurisdictions in this country, police jurisdictions.

[00:32:30] Each one's a little island of authority managed by the chief of police.

[00:32:37] And in most cases, whether it's a bicycle theft or a child murder, help cannot come in, even if it's obvious it's needed, unless they're invited by that chief of police, that head of that island of authority.

[00:32:51] And they don't like to talk to each other.

[00:32:53] They don't want the FBI because, you know, it just gets back to this whole ego thing of this is my territory and I'll fix it.

[00:33:01] And it's a real flaw in our whole system.

[00:33:05] And so Boulder, even though people knew they needed help, they'd had no experience, had no expertise, couldn't come in unless invited.

[00:33:14] And not only were they not invited, they were refused.

[00:33:18] So it's a real flaw in our overall system.

[00:33:21] And the FBI can't invite themselves in?

[00:33:24] Nope.

[00:33:25] Wow.

[00:33:25] Wow.

[00:33:26] There's no higher authority to appeal to at all?

[00:33:29] Nope.

[00:33:30] City manager.

[00:33:31] Usually the city manager is the boss of the police chief and he doesn't know anything about policing.

[00:33:36] No, it's a, it's a, it's, you gotta look at these 18,000 jurisdictions from Green River, Utah, which if you blink, you'd miss it, to New York City.

[00:33:48] They're different and they have different capabilities.

[00:33:50] But Green River police chief, if he didn't ask for help, help cannot come in.

[00:33:57] And it's a real mess, in my opinion.

[00:34:00] And I thought, how do you fix this?

[00:34:01] And the only way I can think of is to, well, I met a fellow actually at CrimeCon that was sponsoring a Homicide Victims Family Rights Act.

[00:34:13] And it's been passed in five states where it gives the family of a homicide victim, which would be us in our case, the right to demand change if things aren't going properly in their judgment.

[00:34:30] It's the rights to that.

[00:34:32] That's good.

[00:34:33] We don't have those rights.

[00:34:33] That's a very important thing because in our case, had we had that right to demand under this act that the case be reviewed or put in different hands, which is what we tried to do for years, get the case in different hands.

[00:34:47] We didn't care who, but just somebody different had to be better.

[00:34:51] That would make a big difference.

[00:34:52] So I really would like to support that effort.

[00:34:56] And they say they've got it passed in five states.

[00:34:58] There's a couple more that are getting ready to pass it.

[00:35:01] But it gives the family certain rights if the police aren't doing their job.

[00:35:06] That's a big step forward.

[00:35:08] But between the combination of the media and this abuse of power within the police system that we've talked about, can you tell our audience a little bit about some of the key evidence that got missed or swept under the rug amidst this circus?

[00:35:20] Well, the big one is unidentified male DNA recovered from her clothing.

[00:35:26] And that was discovered in January 1997, within a couple of weeks after her murder and reported to the police.

[00:35:34] The report said John, Patsy and Burke, my youngest son, are excluded as sources for this DNA.

[00:35:42] Police knew that literally from day one, but it conflicted with their conclusions.

[00:35:47] So it became a problem.

[00:35:48] And then it was retested.

[00:35:50] A new DA took over and did some retesting in 2008 and found more of that same DNA in different articles.

[00:35:59] And that's when she felt there was enough conclusive evidence to formally clear Patsy, myself and Burke as suspects.

[00:36:09] And in fact, her letter, she apologized for the way we were treated by the police.

[00:36:13] And that was in 2008.

[00:36:15] But you don't have any in terms of, of course, the media was, they bought into the police conclusion that, yeah, it was the parents.

[00:36:25] This is good, juicy news.

[00:36:29] And it's hurtful.

[00:36:31] Usually it's horribly wrong.

[00:36:33] And doctored pictures, you know, Photoshop pictures.

[00:36:37] And the problem is these tabloids, everybody sees them when they check out of the supermarket.

[00:36:44] Brother did it.

[00:36:45] That was one of the headlines.

[00:36:46] Right, right.

[00:36:47] A hundred million people see that.

[00:36:49] Well, not that many people buy the tabloid and read the article and read that brother did it.

[00:36:54] Did it was graduate from the fifth grade in the story.

[00:36:57] But the misleading headline.

[00:36:59] Oh, my God.

[00:37:00] Is what people see.

[00:37:02] And that actually a recent, well, not recent now, but court decisions said, no, no, that's, I don't care what the story said when you open up the pages.

[00:37:11] If the headline is accusatory, defamatory, slanderous, that's good enough for a lawsuit.

[00:37:20] So that was a favorable thing.

[00:37:23] But I've told people, yeah, we made a pretty living on the tabloids for a few years because we sued them four of our times.

[00:37:30] And the last time, hey, just send us a check.

[00:37:33] This is absurd what you wrote.

[00:37:35] And we will sue you.

[00:37:37] But let's skip that part.

[00:37:39] We know what's going to happen.

[00:37:40] You're going to write us a check.

[00:37:41] So just go ahead and write us a check now.

[00:37:44] You know, one of the things I found quite shocking in prepping for this interview is how many suspects are out there that never got properly investigated?

[00:37:54] Yeah, that's a good question.

[00:37:56] We have four or five that came to our attention.

[00:38:00] The one very good one was from the DA himself early on that look, you know, and circumstantially say, holy mackerel, this is a guy.

[00:38:08] In fact, I said that to our attorneys.

[00:38:10] They were talking about this one suspect that had come to our attention.

[00:38:13] And I said, man, that's got to be the guy.

[00:38:15] And they said, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[00:38:17] Don't do a Boulder police on us here.

[00:38:18] Don't brush your conclusion.

[00:38:19] We don't know that.

[00:38:20] Okay, you're right.

[00:38:21] Anyway, that's the one the DA gave us.

[00:38:23] And this looks really like a potential suspect.

[00:38:26] And we agreed.

[00:38:27] And then, of course, we had the one that was finally arrested in Bangkok.

[00:38:34] It's a long story, but very compelling information that compelled the district attorney who, at that time, had taken the case away from the police and brought in her own investigators.

[00:38:46] Went to Bangkok and arrested this guy and brought him back based on a California charge that was pending.

[00:38:54] Child sex pornography, I think.

[00:38:58] Brought him back because they didn't want to lose him.

[00:39:00] It's a long story.

[00:39:01] But the DNA didn't match, so they had to let him go.

[00:39:04] California had lost the evidence on the earlier case, so they couldn't prosecute him.

[00:39:08] And sorry, the first person that you mentioned that you thought was the guy, what happened with him?

[00:39:13] Well, he was casually interviewed by the police, were told.

[00:39:18] We don't know how much what was done or not done.

[00:39:21] It may have been a DNA.

[00:39:24] If they did take DNA, it may not have matched.

[00:39:27] I mean, basically, there's several pieces of evidence that are there.

[00:39:32] One's the DNA sample.

[00:39:34] There's a palm print, an unidentified palm print on the door where Chambonet's body was found.

[00:39:39] The ransom note, three-page ransom note, and I've been told by handwriting experts, that's a huge sample to work with.

[00:39:47] And you give me a sample to compare it with, I can tell you 100%, yeah, it's a match or not, because that's a huge sample to work with.

[00:39:57] So we have that.

[00:39:58] That's not evidence you can admit in court, but it's certainly compelling.

[00:40:03] So I don't know what's been done.

[00:40:04] You know, Lou Smith was a real detective who was brought in by the DA, I don't know, gosh, fairly early on.

[00:40:13] Retired homicide detective out of Colorado, kind of a legendary guy.

[00:40:17] It's all over 200 homicides in his career.

[00:40:20] He was brought in by the DA.

[00:40:22] And Lou told him, well, look, you know, I've read the newspaper and it kind of looks to me like it probably was the parents.

[00:40:29] We've just got to figure out which one.

[00:40:30] So the DA brought him in and Lou spent about a month on it and looked at all the information and concluded pretty conclusively that, no, there's ample evidence of an intruder.

[00:40:44] And I see no anything that would point to the parents.

[00:40:49] And he steps back to this group think mentality.

[00:40:53] The police had set up a war room where they would strategize.

[00:40:57] And Lou asked to meet with them in their war room.

[00:41:01] And after he'd looked at the case for a month or two, and he went in and he told me this much later.

[00:41:07] He said, look, you guys have worked on this case for a long time.

[00:41:10] And I respect that.

[00:41:12] And I'm new.

[00:41:13] But have you ever thought that you're maybe going down the wrong path?

[00:41:17] And he said it was like throwing a bucket of cold water on the meeting.

[00:41:21] They wouldn't talk to him.

[00:41:22] They wouldn't let him come back to the meeting.

[00:41:25] That's called shunning in cult words.

[00:41:28] Is it?

[00:41:29] Okay.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:30] They shunned him big time.

[00:41:33] And Lou eventually resigned because in his letter he said, I'm not going to be part of persecuting innocent people, which is what's going on here.

[00:41:41] Good for him.

[00:41:42] Yeah.

[00:41:42] No, he was an amazing detective.

[00:41:45] I mean, he's a humble guy, but a real detective.

[00:41:49] And really became a friend eventually.

[00:41:52] And great respect for him as human and what he was doing for our case.

[00:41:56] And he said, he just told me, John, I'll get this guy.

[00:42:00] I'll get him.

[00:42:01] And I had full confidence based on his track record that that would happen.

[00:42:06] And sadly, he died of cancer.

[00:42:09] And I was honored to speak at his funeral.

[00:42:12] And I said, Blue taught me what a real detective is.

[00:42:17] And you're guided by evidence.

[00:42:19] It's like a medical researcher trying to solve, develop a cure for a serious disease.

[00:42:26] You don't jump to conclusions.

[00:42:28] It takes a lot of brain power and a lot of time and a lot of discipline to keep focused on information and evidence.

[00:42:37] And that's what a good detective can do.

[00:42:40] And it's not an easy job at all.

[00:42:43] You can't just say, hey, you can be a detective today.

[00:42:46] It's kind of what the police did at Boulder.

[00:42:48] And you don't have to wear your uniform anymore.

[00:42:50] You can wear street clothes.

[00:42:52] You're now a detective.

[00:42:53] Oh, great.

[00:42:54] You don't make detectives that way.

[00:42:57] They're a rare breed.

[00:43:01] For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir.

[00:43:05] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:43:09] It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:43:12] Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife.

[00:43:15] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Cult-y sponsors.

[00:43:18] Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast.

[00:43:21] The holidays have arrived at DraftKings Casino, and so has the ultimate festive fun.

[00:43:29] This season, Holiday on the House brings you everything you've been wishing for.

[00:43:32] Exciting table games, massive jackpots, and the must-play slot of the season.

[00:43:37] Jingle Bells Power Reels.

[00:43:39] Treat yourself to a winning holiday at DraftKings Casino.

[00:43:42] DraftKings is offering a warm welcome to new players with $100 instantly in casino credits with just a $10 wager.

[00:43:48] Plus, everyone can get in on the action with a holiday reward every week.

[00:43:51] So, sign up with code CULTI because the holiday cheer is here.

[00:43:55] Only on DraftKings Casino.

[00:43:57] Gambling problem?

[00:43:58] Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

[00:44:00] In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling.

[00:44:02] Call 888-78-977-77 or visit ccpg.org.

[00:44:08] Please play responsibly.

[00:44:10] 21 plus.

[00:44:11] Physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia only.

[00:44:15] Void in Ontario.

[00:44:16] Eligibility restrictions apply.

[00:44:17] New customers only.

[00:44:18] Opt-in required.

[00:44:19] Casino credits are non-withdrawable and expire in 168 hours.

[00:44:24] Terms at casino.draftkings.com slash promos.

[00:44:27] Hey there, friend.

[00:44:28] I see you.

[00:44:29] I see you need a little break from all the crowded stores and the hubbub of the holiday season,

[00:44:34] the endless gift lists.

[00:44:35] I think it's time to restore your zen and embrace the natural power of cannabis this holiday season with Vaya.

[00:44:41] You, too, can unwind and recharge with Vaya.

[00:44:44] Whether you're enjoying a quiet evening at home with some eggnog or maybe some latkes, whatever you're doing embracing this festive cheer,

[00:44:52] Vaya's premium THC and THC-free gummies will help you find your perfect holiday balance.

[00:44:59] I personally have my favorites depending on whether I'm with my children or not with my children.

[00:45:05] Vaya is well-renowned for their award-winning THC and THC-free gummies and vapes, THCA flower, soothing topicals, and calming drops,

[00:45:14] all crafted with the highest quality hemp sourced from trusted, independently-owned American farms.

[00:45:19] That is so cool.

[00:45:21] And the best part, Vaya legally ships to nearly all states in the U.S. in discreet packaging, just so your neighbors don't see,

[00:45:27] directly to your door with a worry-free guarantee.

[00:45:29] But you could also say to them, hey, there's no THC in them, or there is THC in them, but, you know, it's legal, so don't judge me.

[00:45:34] This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

[00:45:37] If you're 21+, head to viahemp.com and use the code CULTI to receive 15% off.

[00:45:42] That's V-I-I-A-HEMP.com.

[00:45:45] And use code CULTI at checkout.

[00:45:47] Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:45:49] This holiday season, enhance your everyday with Vaya.

[00:45:56] Break time's over, people.

[00:45:57] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit CULTI.

[00:46:00] It's a good one.

[00:46:02] So where is it now from your estimate, and are you optimistic?

[00:46:07] Well, if they will do what we've asked, which is what can be done,

[00:46:13] and that is turn the evidence over to, we've asked that they turn it over to Othram Labs,

[00:46:20] which is one of the premier DNA labs.

[00:46:23] They've sold over 2,500 homicides in their history.

[00:46:30] Let them develop a new DNA sample from the evidence, if possible, and then use that.

[00:46:37] They have to have a fresh sample, apparently, to do what they do then with the familial genealogy tracing.

[00:46:43] Let them do that.

[00:46:46] And if we come up empty-handed, then we've done all we can do right now.

[00:46:51] If not, if we are successful, then we've solved the case.

[00:46:55] But please do that.

[00:46:57] It must be so frustrating to not to have this, like—

[00:47:01] It's available.

[00:47:02] It's there.

[00:47:03] And they won't—now, it's like, why wouldn't they do that?

[00:47:07] Well, I think there's two factors.

[00:47:10] One is the one you mentioned, that, well, they don't want to embarrass the department,

[00:47:15] show how they screwed it up big time.

[00:47:16] Aren't they already embarrassed?

[00:47:18] Pretty much.

[00:47:18] I don't think they could get a whole lot more of a bad reputation.

[00:47:22] It can only go out from here.

[00:47:25] And the other is they've lost the evidence.

[00:47:27] And that's quite possible, given the dysfunctional police department that existed 30 years ago.

[00:47:34] Is it lost the evidence in air quotes, or like intentionally, or did they really lose it?

[00:47:40] I think it's—if it happened, it's because of dysfunctional—

[00:47:46] Dysfunction.

[00:47:46] Right.

[00:47:47] Yeah.

[00:47:48] In 2022, you started a petition to have the DNA released and privately analyzed to use the genealogy.

[00:47:55] Is that still going?

[00:47:56] Yeah, it is.

[00:47:57] It's on—it's Justice for JonBenet is, I think, how you find it under CrimeCon sponsored it.

[00:48:05] You know, we were invited to speak at CrimeCon the first year with Paula Woodward who had written a book.

[00:48:10] And I had never heard of CrimeCon.

[00:48:12] I said, well, I'll support Paula in her book, and she's a very good journalist and has followed the case for years.

[00:48:19] So we went to CrimeCon.

[00:48:21] I was amazed at what it was.

[00:48:24] And they said, look, we have a huge audience here.

[00:48:27] Maybe we can put together a petition to make things happen.

[00:48:32] And so they helped draft a petition to the governor asking that this be done, that the evidence be given to a cutting-edge lab and let them run with it.

[00:48:43] We had—and it's still there.

[00:48:45] I looked at it the other day, and it's over 35,000 signatures on this petition.

[00:48:50] Amazing.

[00:48:51] Which we're so grateful for.

[00:48:53] And it really energized me again because I've been beating this drum for 30 years, and you get weary.

[00:49:00] You think, nothing's happening.

[00:49:02] Well, I've got 30,000 people behind me now.

[00:49:06] It really energized me to push harder.

[00:49:10] And so I'm very appreciative of that.

[00:49:13] The government responds to pressure, and they're reactive.

[00:49:17] They're not proactive generally.

[00:49:19] And so that's been my strategy.

[00:49:21] That's why I work with the media and folks like yourselves to get the word out.

[00:49:25] Here's the—we need pressure on the police.

[00:49:28] This isn't going to go away.

[00:49:30] We're not going to go away.

[00:49:31] We're going to keep beating on your door until you do the right thing.

[00:49:35] And we're not asking you to clear us or apologize or anything.

[00:49:38] Just do what you can do.

[00:49:40] Use the technology that's out there.

[00:49:42] You're the opposite of the ego.

[00:49:43] I mean, if there's ego in the police department, you're—I mean, it's just—

[00:49:47] Well, at the very least, now you can blame it on the past perpetrators.

[00:49:50] Yeah.

[00:49:50] You have an apparatus right now that's protecting a criminal.

[00:49:54] Exactly.

[00:49:54] You know, and not solving the crime.

[00:49:56] That's a good way to put it.

[00:49:58] I like that thought.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:01] It's—and I say the only logical reason to not do what we've asked and what can be done

[00:50:07] is they've lost the evidence.

[00:50:09] I hope I'm wrong, but—

[00:50:11] I hope you are, too.

[00:50:12] There's no other—there's no other reason to not do it.

[00:50:15] And what about other evidence like the intruder that broke into your neighbor's home a few months

[00:50:21] later?

[00:50:22] Like, that's—I didn't even know that when I started researching this case.

[00:50:25] Yeah.

[00:50:25] I mean, that seems, like, horrific and such an obvious lead to follow.

[00:50:29] Absolutely.

[00:50:30] And they blew it off.

[00:50:31] The father of that young girl, she and John Bonet were in the same dance class.

[00:50:37] Jeez.

[00:50:37] So there's a connection not only in our neighborhood, but they were in the same dance class.

[00:50:42] Police blew it off.

[00:50:43] Same detectives, so-called detectives that investigated our case in the beginning were investigating

[00:50:47] that one, and they discounted the possibility it could be connected.

[00:50:53] And to me, there's absolutely glaring reasons why it should be looked at as connected.

[00:51:00] I think the MO was the same.

[00:51:03] We believe the killer was in the house when we got home waiting for us to go to bed.

[00:51:09] That appeared to be the same thing in this second case.

[00:51:15] Thankfully, the mother heard a noise, and the person fled.

[00:51:20] And the police, over the years, made a lot of amazingly naive statements.

[00:51:26] The one relative to that, is there a similarity?

[00:51:30] Could this be the same killer or the same person?

[00:51:34] And the police chief said, no, it's different, because in the second case, the little girl

[00:51:38] wasn't killed.

[00:51:39] Oh, my God.

[00:51:41] What?

[00:51:42] Yeah, that was a public statement he made to the media.

[00:51:45] Shame on him.

[00:51:47] And the father of the little girl was interviewed by the media, and he said, on a scale of one

[00:51:53] to ten, I'd rate the police a minus five.

[00:51:55] He was furious that they ignored the fact that there was a potential connection.

[00:52:01] I'm not hopeful.

[00:52:03] And I was hopeful when Lou Smith was on the case.

[00:52:08] In fact, here's some more background on that.

[00:52:11] Lou developed an extensive case file.

[00:52:14] Every lead that came in, every name that came in, he had in a database, and then what had

[00:52:19] been done and what hadn't been done.

[00:52:22] 700 names.

[00:52:23] And he prioritized them.

[00:52:26] This is most interesting.

[00:52:29] And he's been doing this.

[00:52:30] And he's doing this.

[00:52:31] And he's doing this.

[00:52:32] And his daughter assembled a group of Lou's homicide detective friends, associates.

[00:52:40] And they've worked on this case on their own, pro bono, for years, since Lou's death.

[00:52:48] And they've done it because they want to finish Lou's work.

[00:52:51] Because he did an amazing amount of work on this case.

[00:52:55] And they are going through this list of 700 names from top to bottom, taking each one, getting

[00:53:02] DNA samples, having them tested, and checking them off if they didn't match.

[00:53:10] And they believe that the name is on that list.

[00:53:12] But it's a tedious process.

[00:53:16] But they're diligent about it.

[00:53:18] So that's a big hope.

[00:53:21] And these are experienced Thomas Die detectives that knew Lou respected him and are committed

[00:53:28] to finishing his work.

[00:53:30] And so that gives us some hope.

[00:53:32] You know, given all the misinformation and the public misconception, and just in case our

[00:53:37] listeners aren't as up to speed as now we are, that the DNA evidence has cleared you

[00:53:41] and Patsy.

[00:53:42] And that's, regardless of public opinion, you are innocent.

[00:53:46] Just in case people didn't know that.

[00:53:48] But is there anything else you really want people to know that you want our listeners

[00:53:52] to leave with from this interview?

[00:53:56] Well, I think, you know, we were naive living in Boulder, Colorado.

[00:53:59] We thought it was a sweet town with flowers coming up and everything's good and happy.

[00:54:05] And it's not at all.

[00:54:06] But it's no different than any other community.

[00:54:09] There are bad people everywhere.

[00:54:11] You don't need to be paranoid, but don't be foolish.

[00:54:15] And we were not careful about making sure the doors were locked.

[00:54:19] We didn't set the burglar alarm.

[00:54:21] We thought we lived in a safe community.

[00:54:24] And your home is your sanctuary.

[00:54:26] And at night is when you're most vulnerable.

[00:54:30] Make sure your home is secure at night for your children's sake.

[00:54:34] And, you know, I was asked by a reporter years ago, but if you could talk to John Bonet,

[00:54:41] what would you say to her?

[00:54:43] And I said, I would say, I'm sorry I didn't protect you.

[00:54:49] Because that's the key thing you can do as a parent is make sure your home is a safe sanctuary at night.

[00:55:05] I'm so sorry you've endured this for so many years.

[00:55:08] Thanks.

[00:55:09] Well, you know, people have been wonderful to us.

[00:55:11] You know, early on we were asked, you know, how is it to be out in public with you being accused of being child murderers?

[00:55:18] And I said, no, people are wonderful to us.

[00:55:20] They stop us in the street and say, I'm so sorry for what's being said and done to you and give us hugs.

[00:55:27] That happened all the time.

[00:55:29] And so we were uplifted by our fellow men and women that we didn't know.

[00:55:34] And it's wonderful.

[00:55:35] It made me more compassionate.

[00:55:36] Because you realize everybody deals with a – life's not easy.

[00:55:41] Right.

[00:55:41] And life has storms in it.

[00:55:43] And you're going to deal with storms.

[00:55:45] And you meet somebody, you don't know what storm is going on in their life or had gone on in their life.

[00:55:50] And I'm just so much more compassionate to people in general.

[00:55:54] I look at people – and I look at young people.

[00:55:56] Young people, oh, man, you know, you don't know yet, but life's tough.

[00:56:01] I'm sorry.

[00:56:04] But as I said, life is not always easy and life's not always fair.

[00:56:10] So you just sort of have to accept that and deal with it and not feel like you've been singled out.

[00:56:16] Right.

[00:56:17] It's really been nice talking with you folks.

[00:56:20] Likewise, John.

[00:56:20] So good to talk to you, John.

[00:56:21] I really wish you resolution in your lifetime.

[00:56:26] Thanks.

[00:56:27] Well, you know, I've said, you know, my goal in working with the media is keeping the pressure on the police.

[00:56:33] Absolutely.

[00:56:33] This isn't going to go away.

[00:56:35] Yeah.

[00:56:35] The solution is not going to change my life, but it will change the life of my children and my grandchildren.

[00:56:42] This chapter needs to have an ending, and they need to be able to move on to the next chapter in their lives.

[00:56:48] I agree.

[00:56:48] And that's why I'm fighting so hard to get it resolved.

[00:56:51] Good for you.

[00:56:52] We're happy to share it and anything we can do to facilitate the pressure.

[00:56:55] We're about it.

[00:56:57] Well, that's key.

[00:56:58] That's what it'll take.

[00:56:59] Yeah.

[00:57:00] So I very much appreciate that.

[00:57:02] We appreciate you.

[00:57:03] And the next time I see you at CrimeCon, hopefully we'll be, you know, I can congratulate you for that.

[00:57:08] Well, thanks.

[00:57:09] I'm predicting it for the future.

[00:57:10] Thanks.

[00:57:11] We'll keep our fingers crossed.

[00:57:15] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty?

[00:57:17] Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

[00:57:22] Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it.

[00:57:27] Maybe they're in a cult.

[00:57:28] Maybe they're a little bit susceptible.

[00:57:30] Just share the love.

[00:57:31] Thanks.

[00:57:34] Thank you to John for taking the time to talk with us.

[00:57:38] John, we appreciate you, your vulnerability, your honesty, and your willingness to keep talking about this.

[00:57:43] And we'll keep hoping John Bonet's case finally gets solved.

[00:57:46] In the meantime, this conversation is a good reminder of culty thinking can be anywhere and in any institution.

[00:57:51] In the interim, we have connected Amanda Knox and John Ramsey and hope that they become new best friends.

[00:57:58] Bye for now.

[00:57:59] Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[00:58:17] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[00:58:20] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[00:58:25] Our co-creator is Jess Templetardi.

[00:58:27] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios.

[00:58:29] And our writing and research is done by Emma Deal and Kristen Reeder.

[00:58:33] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.