Laura Richards: What Kanye West, Britney Spears, and Blake Lively’s Cases Reveal About Coercive Control (Part 2)

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[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

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[00:01:15] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty. Welcome back, everybody. In this episode, we're picking up where we left off with Laura Richards.

[00:01:42] This is part two of our conversation, so make sure to check out part one if you haven't already, as it probably won't make much sense. Break it down to recap. Laura is a behavioral science expert who spent 10 years with New Scotland Yard. In part one, we covered coercive control and how it is a huge predictor of violent crimes. Laura gave us a perspective on cases like Gabby Petito, Sean Combs, aka P. Diddy, and Dirty John Meehan. In this episode, we'll go over some more recent cases, including Kanye West and the Blake Lively-Justin Baldoni sitch.

[00:02:10] We'll also talk about gender bias in the court of public opinion. And in the court of law. Debt vs. Heard, Britney Spears definitely come up. So, does sexsomia as a bullshit rape defense? So much to talk about. But before we do, I want to drop the same trigger warning as last time. If you're sensitive to discussions about sexual assault, murder, and domestic abuse, please bow out of this one. Take care of yourself. Please. All right. Back to our conversation with Laura Richards.

[00:02:51] So, I have a habit of coming up with the podcast title as I'm talking to the guest. And the thing you've said that really struck me is liberty crime. Liberty crimes. And this is the, you know, the through line of coercive control and all these topics. And as you were talking about Sean Combs, P. Diddy, you could have at the same time been talking about Kanye West, who's, you know. Or Epstein. Or Epstein, but like specifically if we're looking at what's happening right now.

[00:03:16] Or Kanye West parading his wife in a, basically naked at the, what was it, the Grammys? Yeah. What was your take? What was your first thought when you saw that? Well, we've seen other things from both of them, haven't we, in the past? And this level of nudity has taken it to a whole new level, I think. And the fact that they weren't invited to the Grammys, they just showed up. And how it came to pass, her in the coat.

[00:03:43] And you see him give her direction. And you see on her face, you don't see joy and radiance of someone who's doing something a bit cheeky and knows that it's, you know, they shouldn't be doing it. You see a face that looks unhappy, unsure and scared. That's what I read in her face. And then she turned around full nudity. I mean, A, it's completely inappropriate. You know, some people say, oh, we see bodies on the beach.

[00:04:13] It's female empowerment. And I'm like, but it's not a beach. It's not a beach. It's an award ceremony. And there were children there. And that is not appropriate. She could be arrested for indecent exposure here in California. That is a crime to subject people. But what you see is his direction to her. And that's what I take issue with. Does she have her own agency? Does she have her own autonomy? Is this something that she would choose to do before she met him? Did she dress like this before she was with him?

[00:04:42] And the answer is no. And why does she look like Kim Kardashian? I mean, the morphing of the two, it feels incredibly uncomfortable. Not because I feel upset seeing the female body because I don't. It's about it feels very insidious the way that it happened. And I think most people seeing that were uncomfortable with it. And you can rationalize it and say all these things. Female empowerment. No, that's not it.

[00:05:10] Female empowerment is when someone knows they're doing something. They're happy in that moment. You can see that radiance, that joy. You can see what it's bringing them. And I didn't see any of those things on her face. And I do think that if we listen to Kim Kardashian and what she said, he coercively controlled her. He controlled what she could wear. Even before any awards ceremony, he would decide what her outfit would be. And when she broke up with him, there was stalking. And he bought a house opposite Kim.

[00:05:40] All the things that went on, we now would call coercive control and stalking. And he's, I believe, using Bianca in a strange way by proxy to get to Kim as well. It's like a double abuse because, in my view, Bianca looks like Kim Kardashian too. What's your thought on it? I mean, you saw the images. What did you both think? I think the whole... It's pretty much exactly what you just said.

[00:06:07] I think the whole Hollywood thing's unhinged, to use that word appropriately, I think. I think everything going on out there is... They haven't landed in any appropriate place recently. And I think it's shock value. And they're willing to rationalize and normalize all sorts of things just to keep that low-level entertainment and audience entrapped. And I tuned it out of my life as much as I can. I think it's McDonald's for the mind. That's my take on that. I mean, I try to tune it out.

[00:06:35] But also, you know, I follow a lot of people on social media like yourself and Dr. Cochiola and people who are talking about coercive control. So I see the dots being connected. So it's not like I'm reading People magazine, right? I'm reading the commentary on these things. And it's shocking. It's also...

[00:06:52] It concerns me that, you know, a young man who doesn't follow your work or our podcast or whatever will look up to somebody like Kanye and see that and normalize it or think it's okay. And I mean, never mind the website with his... Well, his hatred for Jews. His anti-Semitic, you know, the merch that was shown on the Super Bowl. Like, that's a whole other topic. It's just... It's upsetting to me. It's truly upsetting. It's very upsetting.

[00:07:22] And if you think about it, what happened to Britney Spears when she was placed in a conservatorship because of concerns about her behavior? I mean, her behavior was nothing compared to what we've seen from Kanye Ye or whatever he's calling himself these days and the swastika and all of this stuff where you would expect an intervention, right? Because he clearly has got a lot of problems. But majority, I think, of his problems are wrapped up in entitlement.

[00:07:49] He just thinks he can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants and there's no stop. And Britney, having followed her case, the way that she was treated and pathologized and put in a conservatorship and her freedom taken away, when she showed far less concerning behaviors in comparison to some high-profile men. And I'll put Sean Combs in there too, as well as Kanye West. But really disturbing.

[00:08:17] I found it deeply disturbing to see her like that. Absolutely. That's been on our list from the beginning, actually, to cover her case. But, you know, I don't know if we'll ever be able to talk to her specifically. Is there someone that you'd recommend that we talk to to dig into that? Or is that, I should ask you to begin with, what's happening with her case? With Britney? Yeah. So she has been out of the conservatorship for some time now. She had a brilliant lawyer who really fought very hard for her and effectively won.

[00:08:47] His name was Matthew. I can't remember his surname, but he did a fantastic job. And she's just recently been reunited with one of her boys because she didn't have a relationship with her boys either. She lost pretty much everything. And she's very active on social media. So you can see that there are still some issues. She definitely needs, she's someone who needs a lot of love and support. But all her life she's been controlled.

[00:09:13] And I think, you know, when you see for her, she had coercive control in her life and everything was about her performing. And so now what we see is her behaving in exactly the same way as what she did as a child, almost stuck in that. And she unfortunately, well, she got married and he ended up divorcing her and leaving her.

[00:09:35] So, I mean, I think it's great that she now has a relationship with her children because that's obviously been a real heartache for her of being seen as crazy and then separated from her boys. Because it seems that everybody took advantage of her and that situation. And that's the sadness that I feel about how a woman can be pathologized.

[00:09:58] Well, when you look at everything that she went through and the way that she acted out was in a trauma response, even shaving her head was because she was fed up of being sexualized. She couldn't articulate it like that, but she had had enough and she didn't want to be seen as this sexual object. So I think when you compare the two, you know, Brittany had a father trying to control her. Kanye, his mother died. And is there anybody else in his life who's going to make that intervention?

[00:10:27] I mean, Bianca is now saying that she's concerned about him. Well, we've all been concerned for a very long time, but does she have any power or agency to do anything about it? The double standard that you just described, like imagine just for a second that Brittany Spears had a boyfriend and she made him go under the red carpet in a sheer outfit, a.k.a. totally nude. He can get arrested. Yeah, 100%. Let's ask a Hollywood question. Well, is it?

[00:10:56] This is, honestly, it's so enjoyable, don't you find? Yeah, I want to get into- I mean, I hate it, but I love it. Well, I don't know. All the things. I don't like the rubbernecking of it. The rubbernecking of it is what I don't like, but I will ask the question, how do you feel? We've had this kind of thrown at us a lot, the cult of Hollywood. Do you buy into that all these celebrities are compromised in any sort of way and there's some coercion going on? On a bigger scale. On a bigger scale.

[00:11:24] This is kind of conspiracy theory stuff, but a lot of those things are kind of coming to fruition. Stuff that I dismissed as conspiracy theories are actually kind of coming true in a lot of ways. So how would you describe the conspiracy theory or what you think is going on in Hollywood? Well, here's my hit. Well, what's being said versus what's your hit? Well, my hit, I don't know.

[00:11:46] My hit is that there are stars that make deals with these guys and they're compromised and they have to be obedient to these people. Like they're being blackmailed. Diddy, abstain, you know, with tapes and compromising situations. And then from there on out, that's the coercion. And I think also the conspiracy theory or the sort of thing that's being thrown out there is a lot of people get famous because they basically make a deal with the devil. And they say, you know, you'll get all the things, but you also have to do X, Y, and Z.

[00:12:14] And then they tape X, Y, and Z. And then that tape is the blackmail to keep them obedient. Does that sound right? Yeah, that's about it. Or it rhymes with that. But there's someone at the top or a number of people at the top pulling those. Yeah, and Diddy's a fall guy. Diddy's a fall guy. Or one of the guys. One of the guys or whatever. We're advertising our ignorance right now, I think. I'm thinking about that.

[00:12:39] But I'm also thinking back in historical terms of, did you watch the movie, the Trump movie, The Apprentice? I don't think so. Have you seen it? It's a recent movie. No. Because for me- Is it the one that was on Netflix with Sebastian Stan? Yes, with Sebastian Stan. Okay, yeah, I haven't seen it. It's really good and it's really well done. But what you see is his rise, right?

[00:13:03] And rise in terms of his career from nothing to, you know, superstardom. And in amongst it, the person who mentored him was someone called Roy Khan from New York, the lawyer. And Roy Khan had these tactics, right, where he would have these parties and he would invite all these very well-to-do people, politically, you know, connected people.

[00:13:29] And they would be almost like the Sean Combs freak-off parties. But he would make sure that they were filmed and recorded, listening devices, you know, in each room. And he would use those encounters to leverage what he wanted, whether it was representing Trump and he wanted to get another building put up.

[00:13:56] And therefore, he leveraged the people in charge because they had been at the party and he had the tape. And for me, I think that's where a lot of it has come from, that people have seen how successful he was at controlling people. So we see the mirror image Epstein doing the same, right? Epstein having girls and women brought to him, having these parties, recording.

[00:14:20] Do you remember his Manhattan property and also his Miami property, Epstein's? He got the tip-off before the raid. Someone in law enforcement told him, so a lot of the physical evidence disappeared, certainly at the first house in Miami. Well, you see Sean Combs doing the same thing. And there's a part of me that thinks that, like with anything, you learn what works.

[00:14:46] If you want to do something and you want to never be held accountable for it, because that's how they think, right? How do I get my needs met and get away with it? And they spend their time thinking about that and watching and learning the tradecraft. And that's what I call it. It is a tradecraft. And they use that blueprint. And that's what I think is going on. On Crime Analysts Right Now, I've been covering a case in the UK that's precedential.

[00:15:14] It's a case of sexsomnia, right? Allegedly sexsomnia. And you've probably never heard of sexsomnia before. And neither had I before Jade's case, right? Her case was she had been to a friend's house. They'd been out for the night. She stayed over at the friend's house and she woke up and believed that she'd been penetrated. That was her body, everything telling her. And her clothes were all in disarray. And the guys whose house it was was on the other side of the sofa.

[00:15:44] She knew that he had done something. She confronted him. She then leaves, calls her best friend on the phone and the police are then called. Her best friend says you must go to the police. So she does everything right. And he is arrested. But then his lawyer says, we want to do this test on Jade. 15 questions to see whether she has sexsomnia. Maybe she had this sleep disorder that's quite rare, that she had sex in the night while she was asleep.

[00:16:13] And the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service, said, yeah, let's go ahead with this questionnaire. 15 questions about her sleep habits. From there, never even meeting her, never hooking her up to any machines, never doing any clinical work, never speaking to her partners. Eight years she was with one of her partners to find out about her bed habits. They diagnose her as having sexsomnia and the Crown Prosecution Service closed the case. She then questions that with a lawyer from the Centre for Women's Justice.

[00:16:44] And they basically sue the CPS and they win, that the case should never have been closed. How could they diagnose her? The point of why I'm telling you this story is that since Jade's case and the case being closed, there are all these cases all across the world popping up of sexsomnia, where a man's been arrested and then he claims sexsomnia. There's just been a case in Sydney and he was just acquitted. There was a case in Oxford days ago. He was just acquitted.

[00:17:10] And the thing is, these people look for what works, what gets you off the hook or what gives you the leverage. And certainly if you're a coercive controller, you just want to get better at what you do. And I think that there is a lot of that that goes on. And when you're a celebrity like Sean Combs, that celebrity profile where people want to get close to him or they want him to promote their music or make them a star or whatever it is, that power of celebrity increases even more because people wanted to go to these freak-off parties.

[00:17:40] People wanted to be there. Some of them didn't know the depths of his behavior and how diabolical it was. But I do think it may well be as simple as diabolical men do diabolical things and they learn how to get better at doing it and getting away with it. And they always have the element of surprise because nobody would suspect that kind of behavior. From them in particular. Right. Because most people would say, well, he was charming to me. Oh, he helped me out.

[00:18:07] And the charm part, I think, is such an important component. When they want to turn it on, they turn it on. And that's why anyone can be manipulated. The art of manipulation, as you both know, is doing something you wouldn't ordinarily do. You don't know you're being manipulated because they're so good at forcing you. It looks like it's your free will, but you do something that is not something you would normally do.

[00:18:31] And that manipulation, when it's reinforced by other people and you see them, I mean, certainly in a cult situation, you like these other people and you think they're sound people. Everything looks good and it's ticking so many boxes. And I remember in Sarah's book, that one moment, the illusion of hope is when you really see him. Oh, this is all an illusion. But what you were doing was authentic.

[00:18:56] You were selling people on authenticity, not on dressing something up and pretending it's something. So you see these little moments. But majority of the time, you know, because charm and charisma is a characteristic of a psychopath, they can turn it on, that Jekyll and Hyde of what we see. You've got to be looking out for these types of traits. Hey, Culti listeners.

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[00:21:11] We hope that this and other episodes where we talk about coercive control helps to give people the template and the lens to view these dynamics properly. And I know that you and I talked about it on your Patreon and on your podcast, about the very current and controversial case of Lively versus Baldoni. And you've been knee-deep in it, knee-deep in all the court cases, which I promise you, I will never do.

[00:21:41] I will never do it. I don't know how to do it. Legalese, it makes my head spin. So I'm relying on your expertise here. And I know it's yet to be determined, really, because it hasn't transpired. But given your expertise, do you care to share your current perspective or is it too soon? Well, you're not the only person whose head is spinning, Sarah. The intention behind what's been going on is to make heads spin.

[00:22:09] But the legal documents are a lot. You know, 224 pages from Justin Baldoni for his updated complaint, 168 for the timeline. Not many people are going to wade through those documents along with Blake Lively's legal complaint, which is 89 pages long. And I have to say, I've only just finished. I've only just finished reading all the documentation.

[00:22:33] Once I got to the end of the original, I think it was 179 pages that Baldoni had, they then updated it up to 224. And I think it's very hard for people to understand what's really going on here. And I thought that you probably would go there and ask this question, you know, about this case.

[00:22:53] And it's on the face of it, when you look at what went on with the actual movie itself, there is a clear timeline of certain events happening and Blake Lively complaining, as in calling up Sony and stating that she had concerns for the set being safe, but also for boundaries.

[00:23:16] And that first phone call happened on May the 29th, 2023, just after the romance montage. And that romance montage is also a video that was leaked to TMZ by Brian Friedman. Okay. So that montage video is the nine minutes of them dancing. And it's not meant to be speaking. It's meant to be them lost in their own world together.

[00:23:42] And what we see on camera, people see different things. For me, what I see on camera is a woman creating scaffolding to keep a space invader out of her space. And she's constantly saying, and I say scaffolding because she's looking at ways to push him back out of her personal space. And I don't think there's a woman walking this earth who has not done that before. Who's tried not to be rude.

[00:24:09] Who's really carefully just trying to boundary the person and do it in a nice way and not be seen as the problem. And she keeps saying, this is a talking scene. I think when you're really into each other, it's talking, the intensity of talking. And we're in our own little world. And she's referring to the script because that's what it says. But he keeps going in and space invading around her neck, around her mouth and smelling her and doing these things. And four times she says talking.

[00:24:39] Now, 99% of people have interpreted that scene having seen it as her trying to take control over the direction. Her trying to insert herself. I don't see it like that. I see it as her referring back to the script, trying to remind him that this is what it says. But the problem is he's the director and the producer and the actor. So you haven't got an independent person calling it. And most people who see that think that she's the problem. But that's just a small window.

[00:25:06] But what I do know, if we look at the 23rd of March when that montage is shot. March 26th, she and her baby get COVID. March 29th, she's on the phone to Sony. And even before that, you've got April 14th where the voice note was left at 2am on her phone. This almost seven minitur at 2am. I don't know many husbands who would be happy with their wives getting voice notes from another man at 2am in the morning.

[00:25:34] And I don't know many women who would be that happy. Bearing in mind that he's also the boss. Is that an appropriate way for a boss to behave? That's the question about boundaries. So that happens on April the 14th, that voice note where he's apologising because of the rooftop scene that she has rewritten and he doesn't like it. And he's sort of apologising to her for not taking on her notes. And then you've got, so that's April the 14th.

[00:26:02] And you've got the 25th where Ryan Reynolds talks to Justin Baldoni about fat shaming his wife. And he's not happy that he's used their trainer because Justin Baldoni is seeing their trainer. And he's asking the trainer what Blake's weight is because he's got to do this lift or a certain scene. And Blake has given her her trainer. And of course, the trainer's loyalty is to her. She has been the client.

[00:26:30] And I suspect the trainer told Ryan Reynolds and Blake about that. And Ryan Reynolds was not happy. So that's when things start to go wrong. It's quite early on, actually, when she starts to complain about all of these things together. And then there's a meeting in June. And then on the 19th of November, sorry, the 9th of November, I think it is, the list of protections are put in by Blake Lively's lawyer to Wayfarer.

[00:26:59] And those 17 protections were signed up to. And one of those things was no retaliation for her raising an unsafe set and a lack of boundaries. Is she allowed to do that, to raise these points that have made her uncomfortable? I believe so. And it's about how that's been responded to that's become the issue. And you all know this. Sexual harassment is about perception.

[00:27:25] It's about how something lands and makes an impact for you. It's the thousand cuts. It doesn't matter what the intention of the person was, right? So if you take the video that she complained about, Jamie Heath showing this birthing video, where he says it's beautiful, it's my wife. To him it is. But if it's unsolicited and you haven't checked with the person, can I show you this video? And you're seeing a birthing scene and you didn't ask for it. That might feel uncomfortable to that person.

[00:27:54] And they are in their right to raise it and say that did not feel comfortable to me. So even though in the Boldoni very long lawsuit, they explain the reasons for doing things, their intention and so forth, it's not relevant to a sexual harassment case. The intention is not relevant. So what you see with her lawsuit is a lawsuit that's written ready for court.

[00:28:20] Factual, non-emotion, no aggressive adjectives to describe any party, just factual. That's the standard. What you see from his is very loaded language regarding her. And a lot of time is spent discrediting her and explaining what their intention was. And throwing so much spaghetti at the wall. So many things, rabbit holes.

[00:28:48] Why it's taken me so long is because all the rabbit holes you have to keep going down. And that's the intention. And to most people looking at it, they think that she was out of order because she's a mean girl. And somehow she deserved to be treated in that way because she's a mean girl. And that is all the stuff that's being resurfaced right now.

[00:29:10] But what her complaint is, is about the unsafe aspects on set with clear specific examples, which other people, other witnesses, right, they have to give their side. So the Sony executives, the cast, the crew, the independent people who either stand up what she says or not. So we've still got that part to go. But she has made some clear claims with receipts.

[00:29:34] And it's a dangerous game when we just go down the route of his complaint, which is, well, she's just a mean girl and she stole my movie and she did all these terrible things. Well, actually, Wayfarer, Baldoni and Sony all allowed her to do that. So if your complaint is with anyone, it's actually with Sony. And we're not hearing anything from them. But for me, even listening to him, reading all his texts, he has no boundaries. And the issue is he's the director, he's the boss.

[00:30:04] He wasn't strong enough. He didn't make it clear. He was telling her yes, yes, yes, all the time at every request, bar a couple, which he did push back. But out of the side of his mouth, he's saying terrible things about her to everybody else rather than saying to her, you know what, we're going to have to have a meeting and Sony's going to be there too. And this is the way it's going to be because I'm the director. This is what we want you to do. And Sony are in the room too. We're all signed up to this.

[00:30:32] We really want you in the movie, but this is our movie and we're making it. But that's not what he was doing. He was going, you're my creative partner. I want the whole Blake Lively. You're in this with me. All the way throughout. I think he even said something about like, you're the muse. You're my, yeah, I want all of you. Like, even that is a bit, you know, suspect. I want the whole Blake Lively. Yeah. You know, you're my creative partner. He said things very clearly to her and then he's upset she stole the movie.

[00:31:01] Well, a lot of A-list celebrities do, right? They do make these claims. Many of them do then want to be on the production side. They do want to be the executive producer. They do want the producer credit and some of them go into directing. That's not unusual. We saw it last night. We were at the Captain America premiere. And there you see some of the actors involved as EPs. And that's what we tend to see.

[00:31:27] The challenge is, for some reason here, majority of people don't know how the business works. And the things that she has done and said, they're holding her up to a very different standard. But did Sony allow this? Did Wayfarer allow this? And in my view, yes, they did. And it's weak management. And it probably comes down to much more. He has no boundaries.

[00:31:51] And I don't believe she caught feelings for him, which is all the BS that's going around in Hollywood right now and elsewhere. Because when you see that montage of them dancing, if she had feelings for him as a mum of four who's just had her fourth baby, why is she pushing him back all the time? She's not leaning into it. She's leaning away. Why?

[00:32:14] It's so important because I think it's become – well, it's indicative of everything else we've seen right now. It's just like Herd versus Depp and Red versus Blue and Black versus White. It's now Baldoni versus Lively and like people doing hashtag whatever side they're on. And it's – I mean it's like – what's the word? Juvenile.

[00:32:37] Juvenile, but also it's embarrassing that this is where – like it's actually – it makes me mad that you with all of your experience is sucked into this spat. You know what I mean? Like that this is taking up your time when other people are being murdered and you could prevent that. Do you know what I mean?

[00:32:57] Like this is a sign of our pettiness as a society and I don't like seeing, frankly, people that I like and respect joining – jumping on the bandwagon without that perspective. And, you know, time will tell and the lawsuit will play out but I – ultimately I think what you're bringing to the conversation is really important. I think we always have to go back to the facts and the evidence. And ultimately it will be tested in court if it goes to trial.

[00:33:26] What Brian Friedman has done very aggressively is have it all done in the court of public opinion. And some will say, oh, well, she started it, right? So we go back to that emotional immaturity. Well, she started it. But, you know, when you are a victim in New York, you can talk out about what happened to you. And, yes, that story with the New York Times probably took some time to do. But she asked for no retaliation. That was in the 17 points of protection.

[00:33:55] And it was his side who hired Melissa Nathan, who was Johnny Depp's crisis manager, who turned the strategy all on Amber Heard. And I still remember that very well. Suddenly seeing on TikTok, on all my platforms, I'm seeing all this anti-Amber stuff. And I thought, this is weird. And most people remember that. Well, I've seen the same with Blake Lively. And unfortunately, all this insidious, horrible stuff in Hollywood does have an impact elsewhere.

[00:34:25] Because it does then come into the zeitgeist of, you know, if a female ever complains, what happens thereafter? When she complains, you can be the squeakiest clean of victims, right? And bearing in mind, there is no such thing. Everyone has skeletons. And even someone like Blake Lively, who on the face of it is a good person, has done some great movies, has done a lot of charity work, seems to be a very genuine relationship between her and Ryan Reynolds.

[00:34:55] I mean, if they can do this to her, where everyone's talking about she's a mean girl, that's just incredible to me. And Brian Friedman has been very aggressive in his strategy. And he has gotten away with it, because at the hearing, he got clipped, but he didn't get – there wasn't a protection order put in place. And the lively Reynolds camp are arguing that this is all about retaliation. And unfortunately, in this case, there's going to be no real winners.

[00:35:22] You know, Baldoni's team have gone into overdrive, feeding stuff into the public zeitgeist, literally feeding everything into TMZ, and everyone's lapping it up. And, you know, I do genuinely feel throughout my work, the story has always been the same. And the story is that when women report and raise the alarm, they're not believed. And they're made to look like the problem. And that is a pattern that repeats every time. It doesn't matter who you are.

[00:35:49] You know, a celebrity victim versus Jane Clough in Lancashire, who's reported to police. It's Micah Francis in South Carolina, who's reported to police. And she ends up dead, because we don't take women seriously when they do. And look at the cooling effect that this may well have. So I do think it's an important case, although I do understand what you mean. It's very – has been very time-intensive and resource-intensive.

[00:36:18] But I think it's – for me, it's an important one to understand what's really going on here with this power dynamic at play, which we all saw when the movie first premiered. And, you know, coercive control is about a power imbalance. So is there a power imbalance here? People are saying that it's Reynolds and Lively who had the power. But I don't believe she had that power in the movie.

[00:36:40] I believe she continuously asked, is it okay if I do X, I do wardrobe, I do – and he kept saying yes. But there were times when she went to the studio. And should they have said no? Look, I'm not a studio executive. But there is an independent intermediary there that could have nipped things in the bud. And I think when you're in leadership or supervisory roles, you have to nip these things in the bud.

[00:37:08] Because what we've seen is this escalation that even after the movie was a success, it's been damaging to both of them so far, right? And everyone around them. So if this had been nipped in the bud, we talked about things on a continuum, you get into intervention and prevention far earlier to make sure this doesn't happen again. And I think that has to happen. And I don't like the idea of the social manipulation.

[00:37:33] I think that's a huge problem, particularly present day, of astroturfing and bots and, you know, an artificial sense of the echo chamber or the zeitgeist, it being manipulated. And therefore, we are all being controlled. And that really bothers me, coming back to the question of, you know, a higher being or something controlling us. For me, that is mind control when you are on social media and is all you're seeing is that Blake Lively is a mean girl

[00:38:02] and all these clips of where they don't look so great. And that's all that's coming up. Or Elon Musk when you don't even follow him because we are being mind controlled to that respect. So I always ask people with any case to have a critical, you know, have critical questioning. Don't just accept anything that you see and don't just don't believe her because she's a woman or you don't like her. Because we do know from Harvard studies of the Helmut Heidi study. Have you have you heard about this Harvard study?

[00:38:33] You know, it's really for me what this is wrapped up in. The Helmut and Heidi were on par with each other, both very attractive, super smart individuals, got brilliant test results. They leave Harvard. They're both likeable. But then she starts to succeed in her succession in terms of her career goes up, but her likability goes down.

[00:38:57] Where he's succeeding, it also we also see his likability increases with his success. Whereas the more successful Heidi is, the less likable she becomes. And that's a gender bias. And someone like Blake Lively and Amber Heard have to overcome that, that gender bias that is invisible in all of us, this little part where we judge a woman and hold her to a different standard than we do a man.

[00:39:24] Because you can still be Harvey Weinstein and be called a disgraced movie mogul, a disgraced producer, even though he's a convicted rapist. But the media will still call him by, you know, disgraced movie producer. And there was a rush for Rose McGowan and everybody who came forward to not believe them. Well, that's all wrapped up in this bias of who do we believe and whose account do we weight more heavily.

[00:39:52] And it tends to be through my career of almost 30 years. In some cases, the man's narrative is just believed because he's a man. And it's as simple as that. And we're used to putting our trust and faith in men and male leaders and men knowing what's best. And she, well, who is she? And why should we believe her? We want 300 videos. We want 10 statements. We want eyewitnesses to corroborate it before we can even take the next step and investigate.

[00:40:22] And believe what you're saying. So that bias, unfortunately, is there. And with these cases, it's all wrapped up in that. And the trolls are very vociferous. You know, people with it gets very personal very quickly. It can't when posting anything. What I see is people and particularly women personally attacking me. Oh, you call yourself a crime analyst. You're and all these personal insults.

[00:40:50] And I find that, I mean, fascinating. Because for me, the minute someone gets personal, they've lost the argument. I'm not interested in any further debate. That's it. But why do people take it so personally that you can't even have the debate and see two different sides and have that discussion? Because for me, not everyone has to agree with me. But the minute you start throwing personal insults and slurs based on my credibility, why does it get to that nth degree?

[00:41:19] Why do people get so invested? And particularly women defending a man. Because I see none of those men ever defending a woman. Ever. And that, again, is the biasing. Which you also have to look at the micro and the macro, the big picture. And unfortunately, the patriarchy does play a role. For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir. It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:41:49] It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife. And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast. Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty. It's a good one.

[00:42:14] In our two minutes that we have left, is there anything that we didn't get to that you were hoping to share with our Little Bit Culty audience? Well, just to say that, you know, anything that feels uncomfortable for you at any stage, to trust your instinct and trust your gut. And that, for me, is one of the most important things.

[00:42:33] No matter who you are, if something fills off, sounds off, listen to your own intuition and not what other people are telling you about it to frame it. Trust your own gut. And that's one of the biggest lessons that I can impart across all of my work. And to be curious about things and people and ask more questions. You know, and the last part of that is I do a lot of training.

[00:43:01] And I've opened up all my classes to everybody because it's very hard to talk about this stuff on a podcast and talk about everything, every facet. And there are so many different types of cases. And you do have to attend training to really understand it. And I dissect and deconstruct forensically lots of different types of cases and behaviors so that it empowers people to be able to trust their own decision making.

[00:43:29] And that empowerment, I think, is so important because too often, particularly with, you know, the cult leaders, the coercive controllers, they will try and erode your sense of self and your sense of, you know, your own trust and rationalization. And I want to get people far wholer and stronger to trust themselves of what your gut is telling you without the rationalization and without the noise from someone else or something else.

[00:43:59] If that makes sense. A hundred percent. And it's super important and necessary. And I can't thank you enough for your time. I feel like. Yeah, we could do this for. Yeah. And I hope that we can keep in touch and share as our worlds continue to overlap and collide in this small. Next CrimeCon. Yeah, maybe next CrimeCon. Maybe the next one. Can I ask you both a quick question? Yeah, of course. And, you know, both of you will have your own answers.

[00:44:28] But in terms of what you experienced yourself with Nexium, was there anything that would have got you out sooner? And if there was something, what might that have been? Would there be anything that would have woken you up or you seen it slightly differently? Because I always think about this for prevention. You know, what was there a way of reaching you at any point? Yeah. Evidence. Evidence. You go first. Yeah, evidence.

[00:44:55] There was people that came with accusations and there wasn't evidence of it. So when someone – and I think back to one particular person who – she's actually in The Vow. There's an episode about her, Barb Boucher. I had a lot of respect for her. You know, she helped me a lot. I really looked like she was a business acumen.

[00:45:14] And because she had been made so crazy by the gaslighting and all the stuff, and when I went to talk to people about it, this – even like particularly mostly women were saying, look, she's unhinged. She's crazy. And when I went to talk to her, she did seem unhinged and crazy to me. Like she seemed super irrational. And I didn't see those as markers of her being abused.

[00:45:39] I saw her – I saw her as the vengeful one at the time and not Keith. And I went to Keith and I went to the people around Keith and questioned. I go, what's going on here? Like, you know, she said she was sleeping with him. I go, she's sleeping with him? And they go, no, she's crazy. And they were all lying to me about her. And so my instincts viscerally were like, okay, if this is true, I got to get out of here.

[00:46:05] But when I went, which is what rule number one, don't go to the people that are, you know, doing the coercion to ask them, they seemed calm and rational. And so I dismissed it, you know, and I wish I hadn't. I mean, I would have been out in eight years before I would have been out. So, you know, I look back at that moment and kind of – I don't beat myself up. I just go, I didn't listen to someone I respected because they had been driven crazy. I saw them as crazy and then therefore didn't have the credibility –

[00:46:35] Anymore. – that they should have with me, that they had earned really with me. For me, I think that had somebody come to me that I respected outside of my family because my – I had learned to dismiss my family and like people around me who weren't supportive as like, well, they just don't understand. They don't get it. But I had heard that there was a casting director and Van Cooze was an actor at the time, a casting director who thought that NXIVM was a cult.

[00:47:04] And I think if that person had pulled me aside and sat down with me and shown me what the characteristics of a cult are and maybe like introduced me to – I mean, those documentaries didn't exist in the mid-2000s, but some of the documentaries that are sort of out now, I would have been able to make the parallels. But unfortunately, the cults that were prevalent and known about then didn't look anything like Maxim looked like.

[00:47:28] So it would have had to have been somebody who was very skilled and also highly respected and probably somebody in my industry that I didn't want to displease, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting for both of you because what Nippy describes is often what police are facing, the very rational, calm person and the one who isn't quite so calm, who might be seen as unhinged, right?

[00:47:57] The things that we've discussed and what they gravitate to is the calm person's narrative. Nine times out of ten, that's what happens. And you just described exactly that. So it's very interesting to hear, you know, of not going to those people and knowing what trauma looks like, i.e. the crazy making comes from the trauma.

[00:48:16] And then maybe the third party of someone who you respect, who has the evidence or can point you to, because oftentimes I say to people, listen to this podcast or listen or watch this show. If they can't reach their daughter or whoever it might be, point the daughter in the direction of because she might have that light bulb moment. And other times people say, well, would you speak to X and explain and hopefully wake them up?

[00:48:42] Because I do think we can reach people far earlier and everyone is quite different. But evidence, of course, is very important. But Nippy, you did say everything in your instinct was thinking that there was a problem. And then they assuaged you, right? And it was women close to her that really kind of talked me back in.

[00:49:09] And I underestimated their capacity to lie because they were also sleeping with Keith. So I went to the wrong people to validate my instincts, you know, but I had no idea, you know, that that's what was going on. I couldn't even conceive that that was going on. It was so absurd that Keith would be doing those behaviors that when they said that she was crazy, I just didn't press.

[00:49:34] It's actually one of our pieces of advice in our book that we're writing, which is that if you have doubts, check outside the group. Don't go to your upline. Don't go to your pastor. Don't go to the head of whatever. The first start on Reddit is blank a cult, you know, and look for other allegations of people who've left. Also, I'd been primed to that, like, this is what people who do when they're attacking good. Yeah, we had lots of crap for... I had all that rhetoric in my head and I go, oh yeah, here's evidence of people suppressing.

[00:50:04] And like, you know, so I had, you know, and all that was just reinforced and my instincts were dimmed, I guess you could say. Yeah. Well, they knew how to leverage and how to play you because they study you, right? They know what are the things. And if you're an upfront, front and honest person, you say those things too. It's like, you know, John Meehan with Deborah on the first date where she did 98% of the talking.

[00:50:32] And, you know, she comes away saying he's a really good listener and he's just got all this information about her of the blueprint of how to control her. And so when you are upfront and transparent and you're in self-development, you're going to be sharing far more of you, aren't you? In those situations. There's an interesting caveat to this too that I remembered somewhat recently. They hired a private eye. Claire Bronfen hired a private eye at one point.

[00:50:59] And that private eye interviewed a lot of people that were close to Barbara. And he was asking me about her. And I said, look, I always got along with her. She was great with me. You know, when I was up there to work on a film and I had some time when it was delayed, which was never going to happen, she gave me a job, made sure I was paid. And she was very good to me. And I said something to the fact that I was sorry to see her go. And he looked at me and goes, do you know you're the only person that said something positive about her? And I go, really? And I thought that.

[00:51:28] Because you weren't in on the agenda. Because I wasn't like, and he just kind of looked at me like, that can't be. She was like a leader in an organization just a couple months ago. Like not everyone disliked her. And that was something to me that was like. I've never heard that story. I was like, really? Like, that's bizarre. Like, so she had been made villain number one. And again, I was peripheral. So I wasn't in the inner circle. But I guess everyone in there just made her so bad.

[00:51:57] And when they came to me, I wasn't in that inner circle. So I was just kind of like, yeah, she was. She was. She was nice to me. So I just remember walking out of that going, that's all those people just threw under the bus? Like, and I kind of did, I guess, too, in my way. But, you know. We've since made amends. Yeah. That's so interesting. You say that, though. You know, that moment of all these people turning on her quite so quickly can be the sign, right?

[00:52:25] It was his shock that I said something nice about her that was, like, alarming to me. I was like, all these people just forgot that she was, like, kind of cool, you know? So anyway. Yeah. The discrediting and devaluing and making her look like the problem. And that's how they do it. The don't look over here, look over there. Yeah.

[00:52:47] And I think I mentioned this when you had me on your podcast or Patreon, that it is possible that, like, going back to, like, the Blake Lively case, for example, that maybe she was mean at one point. Like, that is possible. I don't know. I've never met her. I'm not saying that she is. But it's, like, that doesn't change. Because of the situation. Yeah, it also could be because of the situation, how she's being treated, or, like, the two things can exist at the same time.

[00:53:13] It was possible that she was that way one day on set and was also sexually harassed. Her boundaries were crossed in an inappropriate way. It's not one or the other. Right. It's not like, oh, she's a bitch, therefore this couldn't have happened. Like, what are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense. Exactly. I mean, she could be the mean girl, and I just think that's such a stereotypical trope because we never say mean man. You know, he's such a mean man. He's so difficult. I've never heard that across my career ever.

[00:53:40] Also, like, if she was so mean, like, I think that people would have figured that out earlier in her career. Why would he hire her? If she has this reputation, like, you know, why hire her? So I don't buy that so much. And I think if you look in any of our histories, right, we all have good days and bad days where you've said something or you've acted out or you've been short-tempered. We've all been there. So does that mean that for the rest of our lives we're tarred and judged on those acts alone? Right. We're human beings.

[00:54:11] We're complex and complicated. And that's what I mean by women being held to a higher standard, that women are treated as she is being treated, in my view, worse than Weinstein and Epstein and, you know, some of these individuals who've done really heinous things. And what's her crime? Her crime is making allegations that she was, she felt unsafe, that have boundary issues.

[00:54:37] So you go back to what the actual case is about, and it's about boundaries and feeling unsafe. And it looks like, and we're here, if it goes to trial, of course, 90 plus percent of these cases settled before. So we might not hear what the third parties have to say, but there were witnesses to these things. And apparently multiple people complained to HR. And so, you know, does that stand up?

[00:55:02] And if the chauffeur was in the car when he was saying certain things that Blake was uncomfortable with, if other people witnessed it and saw it, and that would stand it up. And that's where third parties do come in. It's not just in this situation he said, she said. But normally when it's going to go to trial, there's a silence around the case. But that's not what we've seen here. We've seen this continued aggressive, she's still a mean girl of things being resurfaced. And some of them aren't as significant to me.

[00:55:32] And like Sarah said, even if she said that or did that, does that still mean that people, you know, can make her feel unsafe? And when she got COVID and her baby got COVID, is that a legitimate concern about safety as well as the boundary issue? But to me, there's normally a number of things that have happened. And the timeline shows that she raised complaints multiple times. It wasn't just she filed, you know, in the California Civil Rights Department.

[00:56:01] She filed this complaint and it was in the New York Times. And that's the first thing that anyone has heard of it. There's a documented history. And I do think if you sign up to, you know, this 17 list of protective points, that is a binding document. And it doesn't matter the reasons why you signed it to make the movie. You signed it. Therefore, you're acknowledging what she's saying happened. And that's the problem I have with it.

[00:56:28] They signed it and she had a separate part to her contract. So even if she has been mean and I've been led to believe she's got quite a quirky sense of humor. And when some of these clips have been raised, there's another context to it. But a lot of her vulnerabilities, I feel now, are being weaponized. And I don't like the feeling of that because we can all be off our game at any point in our life.

[00:56:54] And that doesn't mean to say we deserve to be raped or abused by anyone because we once were mean to someone in an interview. Or once were, you know, said things that were off. And I think that that weaponization feels very uncomfortable. And why discredit someone to that degree? You know, it feels like a scorched the earth mentality that's going on and playing it all out in the media rather than in a court because that's where the case is and should be heard.

[00:57:24] So it has taken up a lot of, you know, people's time. And I don't like it being trivialized into a game either of Team Baldoni, Team Lively because they are serious allegations and both their careers are on the line. And the movie was a very important movie about domestic abuse and coercive control. Ironically. Ironically. Ironically. Yeah, the power imbalance. Ironically. Ironically. And actually, just a quick comment on that.

[00:57:49] If people haven't seen the movie, one thing I really enjoyed about it is that I thought it was actually quite brilliant the way she comes to terms with the fact that he's abusive. like the way that she remembers the situations, the way that the audience experiences the acts of violence through her eyes, cutting out the actual contact until she puts it all together and remembers what actually happens and has her aha moment. Like that's, I thought it was quite

[00:58:16] brilliant actually. So I highly recommend. Yeah. And that's what normally happens for, for victims and the gaslighting of was it or wasn't it? That's his version. He says it wasn't, but was it? My instinct is saying it was. And then you join all the dots because there's this one moment of clarity. That's what it is. Although I will say the end of the movie is not how a coercive controller would behave. He would not co-parent nicely. And I know you've spoken to Dr. C about

[00:58:45] her book Framed. And, you know, certainly if you're a surgeon where control is your number one priority in every aspect, not just in the room where you're operating, but also outside, most surgeons are controlling individuals and they're top of their game. And so someone like the rile character in the movie would not just take what she says on the nose in the final scene

[00:59:10] and they co-parent happily ever after. That does not happen in real life. A girl can dream. That's how I would like it to be. And I'm sure many people would like it to be because you center the child and it's the child that matters the most. We're both parents. So, you know, we know how important it is to a child's psychosocial development to feel safe and be loved unconditionally by both parents and that you put your issues aside because your focus is raising a tiny human

[00:59:37] and doing the best job that you can. But a coercive controller does not see it like that. That child is an extension of them. They belong to them and its property and its ownership and right. And they will fight the mother and burn the earth in doing so. Well, actually our episode with Dr. C dropped this week and we talked about Framed and speaking of angry, both Nippy and I were very angry reading that book, knowing that all of those things are

[01:00:03] currently happening in the family court system. And I'm glad that you two have connected. You are friends, I assume. We are. I mean, we have been for some time. And, you know, I know her, she's actually come on with Amy Palacco onto Crime Analyst to talk about Framed. And the family courts, what's going on, that's all around the world. There's no, this is America and UK get it right. No, they've been

[01:00:27] shrouded in secrecy from the very beginning. And unfortunately the systems do tend to back up the abuser and the abuser more often than not is the man, not always exclusively, but often they have deep pockets. And, you know, Dr. C's work with Amy in that book shows not just extraordinary cases, it's just routine everyday cases from all around the world. And, you know, it's terrifying really,

[01:00:56] because the safety of the child is not the number one priority. And for me, I always go back to that. The family courts are meant to prioritise the child, the child's wellbeing, psychosocial development, needs and safety. And somewhere along the line, things have got horribly twisted and far too many children are continuously being abused and some are being killed by the abuser and they've been backed

[01:01:25] up by the courts. So I think that's a very important book framed for people to read. So I'm glad that you did talk to Dr. C, I actually did listen to the episode. I gave you the click and of course, we'll always support these very important conversations. So I thank you very much for having them and for having me on and for your intense focus and introspection, but also your

[01:01:49] quest for knowledge and wanting to understand that that takes tremendous courage from both of you, actually, and mental fortitude to keep opening yourself up to that, you know, individually, but also as partners and your quest and thirst for knowledge. And I can't wait to read your, your book. I can't wait to show you. I can't wait to show you. We'll be checking with you to make sure we have the course of control bits, right? And the parts that we, where we talk about

[01:02:15] your work, we'll, we'll run it by you. And we're hoping that this will be a good resource for people, but also as we're writing it, even since we spoke to you last, we're recognising that we want it to really be for young people who want to arm themselves because I think they're the ones that need it the most. So we will be reaching back out soon about that. Well, I hope you'll come on Crime Analyst and both talk to me about your book. And I know people want to hear about it in the, in the Crime Analyst Squad. And I think, you know,

[01:02:43] focusing on young people is a very important thing to do, to get in early and to wake them up to power imbalances and unfreedom, you know, of being dominated and feeling entrapped. Because for me, they're the components of coercive control. Yes, it's a liberty crime, but it's entrapment and that power imbalance, someone having power over and often young people and children, they're the most vulnerable, aren't they? Because they're so malleable.

[01:03:12] Yes. Impressionable. Maybe we'll even get it into schools, but either way, I know that we have lots to collaborate on in the future. And I love that we can call you a friend and yeah, you're really inspiring to us. Thank you. Well, you both are to me. So thank you. I really value you both and have valued this conversation and just everything you stand for. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:03:40] Do you like what you hear on a little bit culty? Then please do give us a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're a little bit susceptible. Just share the love. Thanks. That was amazing. I feel like we could have talked and talked and talked and talked so much to cover. And these abuse cases have already gotten so much media coverage, but it's just really awesome

[01:04:09] to get Laura's professional perspective and sex omnia. Jesus age. Unfortunately for every high profile case, there are so many we haven't heard of and haven't come to justice. Remember what Laura said, everybody. If you come across a situation where something feels off, trust your gut. Yes. And if you're in a coercively controlling environment, there are people who want to help you. Please check out our resource page to find them. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

[01:04:38] A Little Bit Culti is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios and our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder.

[01:05:08] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.