My Name Was Mushroom: Wendy Baker’s Journey Beyond the Source Family Cult

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[00:00:28] Das Podcast ist für informational purposes only und nicht beachtetet legal, medical, oder mental health advice. Die views und opinions expressed do nicht necessarily reflect die official policy or position of the Podcast und are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. Ich bin Sarah Edmondson. Und ich bin Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:00:56] Und das ist A Little Bit Culty. Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way. For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult.

[00:01:26] If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out. We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself. Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:06] Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everybody. Our guest today is Wendy Baker, a former member of the Source Family commune. The Source Family started in 1969 and it was one of the first versions of what we might think of as a hippie commune. Long hair, white robes, meditation. Yes, the flowing white gowns, or they just went nude. They were into yoga, meditation, health food, weed smoking, and free love. Daily practices included chanting and meditation. They even had a psychedelic rock band called Far Out.

[00:02:36] No, the band wasn't called Far Out. It was just supposed to be like, Far Up. Oh, Far Out. Oh, okay. I feel like Joe Biden. Their beliefs were sort of metaphysical, esoteric, including sex magic and interdimensional stuff. Father Yod studied under Yogi Bhajan. You might remember from our Kundalini episodes. Father Yod was also influenced by astrology and the Freemasons. At its peak, the Source Family had about 140 members. And Father Yod gave each of them new names.

[00:03:03] They moved around a lot from LA to Hawaii, San Francisco back to Hawaii. They were sort of your prototypical hippies, I guess. Their leader started LA's first all-natural vegan restaurant. Celebrities like John Lennon, Cher, and Woody Allen ate there, putting the Source Family on the cultural map. I wish I was alive during this era. I would have been a guest. But our guest today, Wendy, joined when she was only 14 years old. After a traumatic early childhood, she was drawn to the natural lifestyle and spirituality that Father Yod promoted.

[00:03:32] Over time though, cracks in that wholesome hippie image started showing. Like so many groups we cover, sex with the leader becomes a thing. That wasn't Wendy's personal experience, but Father Yod did try. And he put Wendy on a diet that went past vegan to malnutrition, while depriving her of sleep. Which of course made her easier to control. Wendy will tell us all about her time in the Source Family and how her husband, Father Yod's son, who wasn't part of the group, helped her heal. We'll get into some challenges and the catharsis of writing her memoir.

[00:04:01] She might even give us some inside info on the movie being made about her inspiring life. Let's welcome Wendy to the show. Wendy Baker, welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is great.

[00:04:29] Your story is such an iconic moment in time for us as people sort of obsessed with cults now. I was so excited when I saw your intake sheet come through as somebody who went through the Source family in the 70s. This is like one of the OG legit groups that is sort of the beginning of so many things. The OG. OG. What does OG stand for? Original gangster? This is the OC. Original cult. Original cult, yeah.

[00:04:59] You know, I didn't always call it a cult, too, until much later. So yeah, you didn't always call it a cult, which is something we were going to ask later. But since you just brought it up, you don't really use the word cult in your book. You were part of a community, a commune. What did you say at the time? I think that I called it in my intellect at the time, a commune. That's the way I interpreted it.

[00:05:23] But looking back at it, of course, later on, it did have cult-like flares to it. We're going to get into all those flares. Tell us a little bit about who you were and what was going on in your life when you first encountered this family. Set the stage for us. What's important to know? Right. So I was 14, so I was pretty young. So I didn't have like a huge bio at that point. But basically, I grew up in a family of four girls with a single mom.

[00:05:52] And it was pretty clear that we were accidents and we were not really wanted. And so we were raised that way. It was very non-loving, non-physical, just like we were just there and surviving as children. It was not something that, you know, I wanted to stay in, in that family.

[00:06:17] A lot of negativity, lots of abuse, verbal abuse and whatnot. So when I was 14 and I saw this opportunity of a different way of living, I was just drawn to it and pulled to it. I was introduced to Jim Baker early on because I met this boy. And you could say at 12 years old, we were dating. And if you can call it that, but it was.

[00:06:45] I mean, it was pretty serious, actually. Growing up in Hollywood, things were fast, faster than I think most areas in my belief. Anyways, when I saw that opportunity at 14, there's just something inside me. Like, I couldn't stop it. And it just pulled me, you know, right to that energy is what I'm going to call it. Because at the time that I participated, it was not a commune yet.

[00:07:15] It was really just working at the source restaurant, becoming vegetarian and doing yoga, meditation, and just living a different lifestyle than most of my friends. It was just something that I really wanted to be a part of. Were you still in school? Yeah. I was still in school. I was in high school. It was interesting. And she was eating microwave dinners and never known anything else.

[00:07:41] When you describe the food at the source restaurant, which, by the way, definitely how I like to eat, I was like, that would have been my hook for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, well, I grew up on TV dinners. Yes. You know, and I ate horrible food. And also, I believe, looking back now, I had an eating disorder because I didn't like any of the food. So I barely ate. And I was just depressed. So then here you are getting connected with this incredible restaurant. It's not a commune yet.

[00:08:11] It's the source restaurant started by Jim Baker. His son, you've dated briefly at the age of 12, but he introduced you to this little family. When did it go from a restaurant that you worked at to a commune that you were invited to join? I can't say the exact timeline, but I was 15 when it started converting.

[00:08:33] And everybody that was living in different houses around, I was still living at home while I was being a part of this program, I'll call it at the moment. And he just said, you know, why don't we all live together in one house and create this lifestyle, a family? And so that's what happened. And everybody moved into this house in the Las Villas area. We called it the mother house.

[00:08:59] And that's when I decided that I'm leaving home and I'm going to move into that house too. And at that point, I was 15. And so that's what I did. It was in May, a month before I graduated. No, a month before summer school started. And I was still going to school for about another month. But I lived at that house and basically ran away from home. Where were you in the order of your sisters? I was number three.

[00:09:30] Number three. Were they, did they know about this? Well, number two joined the source family too. She's actually, my mom let her go. And she was able to go and be a part of it before me. And with my mom like literally pushing her out the door. It was very interesting. But then when I went, that's when all pandemonium broke out. So she was there. So we were there together.

[00:09:54] Your mom definitely, it sounds like she was struggling with all the burdens of life and being a mom and obviously didn't have the tools to take care of you. And I really appreciate in your book, that's how you painted the picture of the stark difference between that world and then meeting Jim Baker, who wasn't Father Yod yet. He was Jim, right? And how it appeared you seemed to be seen and appreciated and loved. Can you tell us about that moment when you first met him and what it was like?

[00:10:23] Well, when I first met him, it was a little scary. There was something about him. You know, I grew up Jewish. But if there was anyone that looked like Jesus Christ, this man looked like him. And I really didn't know much about Jesus Christ or anything. But I'm just saying like that was my first impression. And he was so magnetic and so the way he would talk and the way he would look in your eyes and the way he would just listen.

[00:10:51] It was like something I had never experienced before. And it's almost like my soul connected with his soul at such a young age. And I couldn't resist. It was insane. And that was at the time my boyfriend's father. And I couldn't understand these feelings that I had. It was something like I had never felt before. At the time, did you feel preyed upon? Or in hindsight, do you think you were preyed upon?

[00:11:20] No, no, nothing like that. I mean, I did not. My experience was not that. I didn't feel like there was a sexual thing or anything like that. I felt like it was just such a good feeling. And I liked that good feeling that I had at that time. So good vibes. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely was good vibes. I mean, so much of what the commune seemed to be teaching was, well, first of all, that was kind of a rule.

[00:11:44] Like no negativity, positive thinking, only in the now, not being able to even talk about the past. Right. Right. Nobody knew about my past. No one. Not a single thing. So you joined this commune. It's so much better than home. And listen, we want our readers to read the book. So we won't get into all the details. And there's lots of stuff that happens in your journey to being a full member of the family.

[00:12:10] But maybe just take us through, like, painting the picture of what daily living was like at the mother house and how you spent your time. And what was good about it? Let's focus there first. Right. Well, first of all, it was very scary every single second. I felt like I was on the edge every second. Like, why am I doing this? It was a battle within myself. But then something higher took over. And I call it higher because it was saving me.

[00:12:35] A family life there was very, very much like a flower child or like being a hippie with a flair of flower child. Like, everybody was beautiful. Everybody was thin. They had long, flowing hair. We all ate the same thing. We believed the same thing. We believed in being vegetarian. We believed in not cutting our hair. We believed in the power of yoga and meditation. And it was just very healthy and beautiful.

[00:13:05] I never felt so good, like in my body. And I think I was so hungry. And when I went there, I was able to eat that healthy food. It was so good. And the energy in the household was music everywhere, singing, people walking around singing. Everybody had a responsibility. Everyone had a duty to participate in. And it was such a beautiful flow.

[00:13:31] So at that time in the beginning, I didn't experience any negative stuff, any unhappiness, nothing like that. I just felt good all the time. It was like a pure, blissful, constant feeling. Like I was doing the right thing. A lot of the things that you describe are things that I'm still currently into, partly because I think our cult wasn't about all that stuff. So it's safe for me.

[00:13:57] But I know that a lot of groups have some of these healthy lifestyle practices on the outside. And it makes people feel good. And it gives people sort of like something to dig into and do and embrace. And those things can be good. So- Those are often the things that are used to- Draw you in. Ensure people. Yeah. Yeah. Like this healthy lifestyle. Yeah. And you have to understand too, growing up in Hollywood or West Hollywood, you know, was the big drug scene. Right.

[00:14:26] And there was a lot of people, my friends, like shooting up drugs and taking uppers and downers and musculine and acid and tripping out. And that was not me. I was not into that. But it was everywhere. And so this was also like the opposite of what I was experiencing at that time period in LA, in Sunset Boulevard, where I grew up. So it was clean living as well. Yeah. Clean living. Clean living, yeah.

[00:14:54] You're getting up at four in the morning and taking cold showers and doing cold plunges. Yeah. I mean, that was for five, six years, I woke up at 4 a.m. every day and took an ice cold shower or plunged in either the pool or the ocean and did our exercises. And we all did it. There's, you know, 150, 200 of us doing it at the same time.

[00:15:18] And then getting dressed and ready for our pretty much two-hour morning meditation. Wow. Two hours. It was one hour of Hatha yoga and chanting and maybe a half an hour of breathing exercises and things like that. That's an estimate. That's an estimate. It might have been an hour, but I felt like two hours sitting in a full lotus position and doing that. And then the second part of it was we called him Father Yod.

[00:15:48] And so Father Yod, or Father at that time, was giving us like a sermon. And a lot of it was funny. Some of it was talking about his experiences in the war. Some of it was just talking about the world and what they're going through. Very similar to what we're going through today. It's pretty interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it was just, that was just the whole morning episode. He did it every morning without fail. Wow.

[00:16:16] And around this time, he was also working with or appears with Yogi Bhajan, correct? Yogi Bhajan was in the, before we became a family, he was a Sikh. And we all became Sikhs and joined Yogi Bhajan's ashram. But once we all moved in together and we created this family, we no longer went to the ashram and followed the Sikh philosophy. But we did start off as Sikhs. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:44] I mean, I had a card and a number that you get when you become a Sikh. And we wore turbans. And yeah, that's the way it was just before. That was probably about six months before we all started to live together. So this is obviously way before there was any controversy around Yogi Bhajan. I think that came out 20, 30 years after that. Right. I know. I'm not surprised. I mean, that was a given. Yeah. Yeah. We'll circle back to that.

[00:17:14] But what was your first, if you can remember, time that you felt like, hmm, I'm not sure about this or any sort of red flag? Red flags, yeah. Hmm. Probably, see, I don't want to give that away. I'll just say when I was in Maui by myself and nobody was with me, I started to question it a little bit. And then each time something came down in the book that I talk about, I questioned it.

[00:17:43] But ultimately, I really questioned it once he passed away. Okay. And so I don't want to skip too far ahead in the timeline. I mean, essentially, you were there. I'm not sure how far to go. So- Well, part of our general format is just looking when you reflect. There's usually times when things aren't, you know, they don't sit right with you. But because things are so good, you tend to sort of talk yourself into staying. Because the good outweighs the bad.

[00:18:11] And then you go back and you look and you go, oh, this was a moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a lot of those. I had a lot of doubt throughout. But the other part of me, I overweighed it. It kind of overrode, you know, those self-talks. Like, is this the direction I want to go? Are they doing the right things? I mean, when he started changing the rules from his Ten Commandments that he created, that was starting to, I was starting to get real doubt at that point.

[00:18:41] What were the rules and what did he change? Because that's a really good red flag is when the leader has sort of, there's hypocritical things going on in the group. And you're like, wait, I thought we were supposed to be blah, blah, blah. But now you're blah, blah, blah. Or some of those. Yeah. I can't really say all 10 of them. But one of them was that you should be with one woman and one man. In other words, you know, not be infidelity or anything like that. And that definitely sat well with me. And then all of a sudden, he's taking on more women.

[00:19:09] And some of the men in the family are also taking on more women. So that was a change of the rule that he created. Let me see what would be another one. Most of the rules, I would say, pretty much remained the same except for the relationship one. And he wrote a book called Liberation. Probably you can't find it anywhere. But, you know, I have a copy of it just because I was in the family.

[00:19:37] But he wrote about the Ten Commandments in this book, Liberation, and he broke it all down. When he said, you shall not cut your hair. I mean, of course, when I left the Soros family, it took about five years to be able to cut my hair. Because I just, my hair was like almost down to my butt. And it was just like, this is ridiculous. And I'm not, I'm talking every bit of your hair.

[00:20:04] Like you couldn't do anything about cutting your hair. So that's ridiculous. What was the reasoning behind that? Because it takes your energy away. When your hair stays, it keeps your energy that you've created through meditation and through thought process and all those exercises that we did in the family. So if you cut it, you're cutting off that energy. So that was on the Ten Commandments.

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[00:25:42] particular rule. And just for example, the use of the word ego, you know, like, you know, that can be helpful to stay out of your ego. But how is the term ego used to gaslight you? So that used to drive me crazy. Like, if you would, like, have, like, a confrontation with someone in the family, and you would maybe disagree about something, that person would easily say, oh, don't get your ego involved. Don't be on an ego trip.

[00:26:11] You were just literally just expressing your feelings about something or, like, trying to just communicate. And that word ego would just be used, like, all the time. It would drive me crazy. So basically, if you believe differently than everybody else, or what they thought you should, you were on an ego trip. That makes sense that you're driven crazy, because that's what gaslighting does, is it makes you feel crazy. It weaponized the word ego. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:26:41] So I guess that, is that used in your, where you were as well? Not in that exact way, but similar. Like, if you were bringing up a complaint, it would be more like, yeah, what's going on for you that you need to bring that up right now? Or you seem reactive about that. Why don't you go journal on it? Or how does that complaint relate to your life issue? Why don't you think about that? Like, basically putting it back on you. Which dismisses your grievance. Exactly.

[00:27:06] And then you just stand there like, you almost like don't want to continue with whatever it is that you're communicating, because you don't want to be on an ego trip, but you're really not. But it just gets cut off, so you never get to go any further and explore what it is that you're talking about. It's so insane. Yeah. If I knew what I knew now in that example, I would say something like, well, my ego might be involved, but there's still something we need to talk about here. Right.

[00:27:36] Like, why you're not doing the dishes, whatever the complaint was, you know? Right. Exactly. I totally agree. Now, also, for me, I was young. I was 15, you know, 14 to 19. So I almost felt I was powerless, because I was treated like the youngest in the family. So I didn't have power. I didn't have a voice. Also, how would you know that they're doing that to you? I mean... You trust them. Yeah. Right? Trust. Trust.

[00:28:05] Also, being a good disciple, trying to be the best. Like, that's my personality, too, I found out today. But you want to do the best that you can do, and you want to follow the program. You want to do everything exactly perfectly. So when they say you're on an ego trip, you're like, oh, I must be on an ego trip. I, like, believed them.

[00:28:32] Because I'm thinking, I don't want to rock the boat, and I don't want to do anything wrong. I want to do everything right. Does that make sense? Well, as a fellow... Yeah. 100%. Absolutely. As a fellow people pleaser, that is something where there's, like, that's the grain of truth in it. But that doesn't also change the fact that there might be something to have a complaint about. So that's where it gets muddy, and it really can drive you crazy. So I get it, and I... Well, also, I can't imagine any organization where a 14 to 19-year-old girl can come in

[00:29:01] and air a grievance. And, you know, there's not many places where a 14 to 19-year-old girl can come in and air a grievance to power. Right. Not even at your... At a home, you know? Not even at home. Right. Exactly. Let alone in the 70s. Yeah. And I'm just like, I'm on for the ride. And I have a different view than most of the brothers and sisters, I'll call them. A different experience than what they had.

[00:29:26] My best friend today was in the commune with me the whole time. We were together the whole time. Wow. And so we talk about these things a lot afterwards. Like, we both had similar... She's a year older than me, which really did make a difference. But we had different experiences. That's amazing that you managed to maintain that friendship because you went through so much together, I'm sure. And to have that continuity into your life, I mean, what a gift.

[00:29:54] Is there resistance for her to agree with what you saw and the experiences or... Oh, yeah. Yeah. On the same page. Oh, definitely. She went off on a different experience than me because she actually became one of Father Yehoah's women. He had 12 women. 12. She was just very young. And then another friend of ours, too, did that. Same age as her. So he had some young women and some a little bit older.

[00:30:21] And so she went off on a different travel road, you know, having a sexual relationship with him and everything. Looking back at it today, you know, I think I could honestly say she had a lot of regrets. Right. But regardless, she did it. Did you see the documentary by any chance of... No, we actually found out about that last night just as we were prepping this. So I wish that we had, but I did read your whole book and I'd like to watch it. I mean, it's... Yeah, check that out. It's going to be different.

[00:30:50] It's going to be very different than what my book is all about because my book is about my personal journey. So just so you know, but... Yes. She's in that documentary, My Girlfriend. Okay. And so you know, because you don't know much about our story, I have a similar thing to you in that I got mostly the good out of it and wasn't part of our leader's harem either. And he, by the way, just minimum, we counted minimum 12, but probably more like 60 over the years. Oh my God. Yeah.

[00:31:20] He had a lot of women in his harem also, but... And I'm glad that you managed to also dodge that bullet. Barely. Barely. He did approach you and you declined, which I'm so glad. What was that moment like? How confusing was it to have your father make this offer? And by the way, do you want to define the term? It wasn't sex. It was called something else. What was the term in your book? It was called Dionism. And what did that mean?

[00:31:44] That's like an Egyptian ancient sexual act that they did, you know, centuries ago, like long, long time ago. And that was the philosophy is that you have Dionism, which is that you come together like in a spiritual way. It's not supposed to be like feel good or... Well, I guess it... I don't know. It's debatable, but it's just an ancient sexual act that we practice. Okay. And the man does not release...

[00:32:13] He does not release. So you... Okay. So it's considered supposedly, in his view, not sex. It does not? That's what I was going to say. He's attempting to minimize the sexual abuse aspect of it. Exactly. Exactly. By giving it a different name. It's a bit of a workaround in his mind. It sounds like. Language. There we go. Yeah. It's just, you know, manipulation, really.

[00:32:36] But anyways, I was very close and something just came over me and I'm like, I don't want to do this. And I don't see him like that. And it was almost fashionable and the in thing to be part of his group, you know, the women. I saw it as a joke. Like these women, all they do is fight all day, compete with each other, and nobody's satisfied

[00:33:03] and nobody's happy that I saw. And I just... All that's going through my head. And I just decide, you know what? I don't want to do this. And he was okay with that. He let me go. So... I was really glad to read that part. I know. I know. And it was a very difficult time for me. That was what you would call a red flag moment for me, by the way. Absolutely. Like I wish I couldn't be here right now, but I am. And I have to. Right.

[00:33:33] Yeah. And you were 17 at that time? Yes. I was 17. I had already had my daughter. So I was 17. And you had your daughter with a man named Starman. I loved all the names, by the way. Yeah. Your dude was Starman. Your baby was Stardust. Correct. And at the end, I was Heartstar. Right. Yeah. I love all these names. And you started off as Wendy, and then you were Lila, and then you were Nirvana, and then you were Mushroom. Right.

[00:34:01] You had all these different amazing names. And we're not going to cover your whole journey there. There were five years in. And you went back and forth to Hawaii and different islands and living in like squalor and hand-washing diapers. And oh my goodness, I was like, get this girl to a laundromat or out of there. I was like, that's so bad for you. But some pretty amazing adventures. And also amazing that you're alive. Like you had some crazy experiences, like earthquakes and boat rides. Like it's a miracle that you're here.

[00:34:31] You really read the book. Oh yeah. I read the book. By the way, a little tangent. Nippy doesn't know this, or maybe I told you. Crazy story, little tangent. So I'm listening to it on Audible, because I listen, I don't read. And I'm listening on the airplane on the way to the West Coast. I'm going to San Diego. I'm landing in San Diego as you're talking about the diet that Father Yod put you on, and how at one point he put you on a diet made of grape juice that was prescribed by the professor of... Rancho La Puerta.

[00:35:01] Which was where I was going. What? Yes. And do you know that I bought a house at Rancho La Puerta? Come the fuck on. Are you serious? No, I'm a resident. We are residents. Yeah, I bought a villa. I'm coming to live with you. And it's going to be finished in one month. Wow. When can I come visit? No, seriously. I mean, I'm going to be living there part-time. Wendy, I just got back from Rancho. I just got back. Oh, it's Rancho now? I guess it's Rancho. Yeah.

[00:35:30] I'm really good friends with Debra Szeke, who's the CEO of Rancho La Puerta. I just heard her speak. Look, just to prove to you. Oh, was she there? I got my Rancho bag. I got my backpack. Oh, that's with your name on it? My name on it? That's hysterical. I got some red flags going on over here. Just saying. Well, you heard about the residents, right? Yeah. No, I was inquiring about the residents because I really do want to move there. Like, this is just so you know. Well, I'm moving in. I'm your new sister. We're going to start a commune. They've already separated me from my family. Oh, no.

[00:36:00] Well, it's a way of living. It's like a commune in a way. It's a community. This is a community. But it's a good way of eating. It's health. Child starch. Yeah. But there's no leader. There's no leader, and you can leave whenever you want, and there's no bait and switch. This is what makes it not a cult. There's no, like, come and be healthy for a week, and then you can have sex with the, you know. Do they need a leader? No, none of that. Although the professor did do that kind of stuff. I know. Yeah.

[00:36:30] So I was looking at it in the museum. The professor was 34, wearing white robes and traveling around California and teaching about health and wellness. And he married Deborah when she was 17. Right. Bruh. Yeah, bruh. And by the way, Jim Baker was really good friends with Deborah and the professor. They went there when they very first opened. I can see that. So a lot of his philosophy he got from the professor. So I get that very much.

[00:36:57] And I'm literally, like, landing in San Diego to get picked up on the shuttle to go to Rancho. As you're mentioning it, I'm like, well, what are the fucking chances? I told a lot of people about it. I actually told them when I was there, and I gave my book to one of the speaking, the person who coordinates the speakers. I'm like, I'd love to come back here and talk about my experience. Because the people who knew me from the documentary were like, every time they saw me, they'd like sit me down and like ask me questions about the cult. And I was like, well, you know, it starts like this. It starts good. And I know that the ranch obviously is very healthy.

[00:37:27] We joke about it. It's a healthy, wonderful, safe space. But that's how, like when I was reading your book, I was like, all the things you were talking about at the beginning totally would have drawn me in because those are my values. Right. Right. You know, I have three books in their library. You do? Yeah. Yeah. They took three of my books put in there. Did you go to the library? I didn't go to the library. I was too busy working out and meditating and doing the crystal bowls and hiking. Texting me to do the laundry. I was texting Nippy because I really want him to come with me. I'm like, there's a basketball court. You can work out in the gym.

[00:37:56] There's like other things. There's pickleball. There's tennis. There's volleyball. There's a weight room and you could do a weight training class. And there's a lot of stuff for men. And the hiking. I'm sold. The hiking. I mean, I hiked every day. I've never felt so healthy in my life. And I know we're totally diverging from the podcast. Okay. Sorry. I hope we keep it in here. No, no, no. It's fine. I brought it up. I think it's relevant because if I was a cult leader, those people are open. I would target them. So that's good. So that's what... Well, think about it.

[00:38:26] We are open. It's a warm audience. It's a warm audience. And that's actually what I was trying to pitch them is I'd love to come back and... Be the leader? No, I don't want to be a leader of anything ever. But I wanted to teach people like how do you navigate the wellness space or even the spiritual space without being caught up in something negative? And what are the red flags to look for? Or more positively, because the ranch is all about like positive things, is like what would be the green flags to look for? Can you leave any time? Are you encouraged to have like different beliefs?

[00:38:55] Making sure there's no charismatic leader, things like that. Anyway. Well, also another thing is that you're sleep deprived, you're hungry, and you're almost like brainwashed because you can't really think your own thoughts. You have to think their way. And those are really big signs of problems that I didn't pick up on until later. Definitely. And especially as you got more entrenched and you were away from more isolated, you got out of LA and you were in Hawaii and you were separate from everything.

[00:39:25] And then also you were lacking protein. Like you were eating just off the land, which can be good, but you needed some nuts or like some fish and like that's a whole other part of it. Those are by design. I think so. I think so too. I think so. I think it's a control. They want to control what you're doing because- Also, aren't you less fertile when you're that way? That wasn't my case, but- Nevermind. There were lots of babies and they did it all naturally.

[00:39:52] And I mean, I encourage people to read the book just to read about your birth, which sounds like what I tried to do with my first child, but ended up in the hospital. But it sounded magical. I mean, lots of things about it were magical. A lot of things were really scary. And we'll let people read the book for those details. What was your final straw? What was the final thing that caused you to make the choice to leave? Well, my relationship with Starman was, I guess I grew up and I realized I did not love this person and I wanted out.

[00:40:22] Like he made me sick. He was very, very controlling and jealous of everything. Like if anyone just looked at me or talked to me or anything and I felt suffocating. So, and of course this was after Yehoah passed away and I just, I needed to breathe. I needed freedom and I wanted out. He wouldn't let me out of his sight and I just didn't know how to get out. And so I met another family member named Sir Knight.

[00:40:52] That was his spiritual name. His real name is Peter. And he became my hero. And I basically told him, I actually kind of, I vibed to him. I had a crush on him. He had one on me and he rescued me to leave the family. And it was really just not working out anymore. It just, it was nothing like they said it was going to be. And I became of legal age that I could leave. I just didn't know how.

[00:41:22] And so Sir Knight was my, just like a movie. He rescued me. And that's how I was able to leave. It was a transition. Big transition. Because meanwhile, through this whole time, we didn't really touch on it, but your mother tried to bring you to court because you're a runaway. And you were able to get out of that situation by convincing the counselor that you were better off actually in this family. And you dodged so many bullets. It's amazing. Like all the different obstacles you had to overcome to get out.

[00:41:52] And I know it's for time, just want to sort of condense a couple of things. You got out, you reconnected with Bart, whose father Yod's son, who you dated when you were 12. It's like a movie, right? Yes. Because it really, it should be a movie. There is. This movie's coming? Oh, yeah. Oh, great. I cannot wait to watch it. Yeah. Well, there's a movie that's being made. Fantastic. Yeah. Who's playing you? Do you know yet? No, because the writer just finished the script.

[00:42:22] And so I have a team of people. I have a director and some producers and a writer and two writers. And they're just at the place where the script is finished and they're marketing it right now. But there's different people they want to cast. And we have to do a casting on that. So I don't know yet. I wish I was still in my 30s. Who's doing Yod? Yeah, who's playing Yod? I would like, now I probably shouldn't be saying this, but I'm going to say it anyways. I would like Bradley Cooper to play Father Yod.

[00:42:52] Yes. Bradley. Bradley. I've seen him in Malibu. Yes. And I look at him and I'm like, you could totally be Jim Baker. Yes. He's got the eyes. He's got that. Jared Leto could do it. Lito, whatever his name is. He's got his own. Oh, somebody on the team. He's got his own cult. Yeah. Somebody on the team said him too, but I don't think so. I don't know. But anyways, it's not up to me. I just wish I was still in my 30s so I could play one of the women, but I'm too old now.

[00:43:19] Well, the women are all in their teens and 20s. I'm casting myself in your movie, but let me. Well, maybe you could just be one of the people in class, in the meditation class. I could be one of the people in class. I was an actor, by the way. Or your mom. Oh, ew, ew, ew. No, I don't want to be your mom. For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir.

[00:43:47] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. I narrate the audio version, and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast. Hello, friends. Sarah here. Can we talk for a second about how summer just hits when it comes to entertaining? My favorite thing is having my friends over, especially my girlfriends, over for a dinner

[00:44:15] party under the stars or chilling by the fire pit or sweating it out in a private yoga class in my backyard. It's kind of the ultimate vibe. Warm nights, good vibes, no culty nonsense, I promise. But to make those moments pop, you really need the right setup. And that's where Wayfair comes in. It truly is the one-stop shop for everything from patio tables to string lights with fast, easy shipping that doesn't make you do a double take on your credit card. Truly, so inexpensive. I went in all the way with Wayfair this summer.

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[00:46:07] Head to Wayfair.com right now to explore a huge outdoor selection. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Hello, my culty friends. It's Sarah here again. Time to get real. Tracking your money can feel like you're trying to escape a seminar with your wallet intact. You think you have a grip, and then poof, your cash vanishes on late-night DoorDash binges or that retail therapy you swore was just one click. Don't even get me started on those sneaky ride-share charges or the concert you had to see.

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[00:47:07] I thought I was pretty good with money. You know, like post-cult life. I'm all about control now, being careful, being skeptical. But Monarch showed me how we were bleeding cash on things like takeout and just random Amazon splurges from late-night doom scrolling. Like, I didn't realize how much I was treating myself because I deserve it and how much that was adding up. So now we use it for weekly spending reviews together. Nippy's obsessed with the transaction tracking, and I'm all about categorizing everything so we can see exactly where our money's going.

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[00:48:32] Okay, so you get out, you meet Bart, you reconnect, you start dating again. You go back to school. You have a second and a third child. All of these things, you get your life back on track. You're now an entrepreneur. What are you doing to heal? What have you been doing? How did you get to this place? I think I've healed because of my husband. He knew what I went through. And it was his father. And so he kind of knew everything going on.

[00:49:00] And I've been able to talk to him about everything. Right. And talking about it and him listening and understanding and not judging me really helped me to heal. And I think because I was so young, I think I was able to grow up. And I think that age was a big factor in helping me heal.

[00:49:24] Because it's easier to heal from going through shit between 14 and 19, like high school stuff and drama that you go through and heartbreak and just all the things that happen at that age group. And then you kind of get to an age, or at least I did, where I could change directions and I can find out who I want to be and I could become that with my own power. And that's how I think I've healed is because I think he saved me that way.

[00:49:53] It's such a unique position because he didn't join the family, but he knew about the family and he knew who you were before. So what a gift that you were able to reconnect with him. He seems like a wonderful man. Oh, he is the most amazing man. He's unbelievably incredible. Like, he's just been everything to me. It's a great perspective you have because 14 to 19, for most people, most kids, regardless of where you grow up, you're going to hit something. You're going to hit something.

[00:50:23] I mean, everyone's hard is their hard, right? Normally you hit your first hard around that age. And for you to look at it and frame it in that way because you didn't lose your life. A lot of people lose their life to this stuff. Yeah. And you were able to frame it that way and turn it into a positive. I was able to recuperate. And I call it my high school. Being in the Sears family was my spiritual high school. I didn't get to go to high school like everybody else. I didn't go to the prom. I didn't graduate.

[00:50:53] I didn't get to do those things. I did things differently. Obviously, there was a lot of illegal and negative things that we found out later that Father Yod was doing. But the spiritual part of it, in terms of the teachings, I've heard you mention that you really cherish those and you keep those in your life. And you've been able to separate the good from the bad, it seems like.

[00:51:41] Yeah. I never want to be a fanatic. I never want to be a fanatic on anything again like that. So, yeah. I just take what I have and incorporate it. I mean, friends that found out that I was in a commune because I never told anybody, they were shocked. Because I don't come across like that kind of a person. If there is a kind of person, I mean, I seem to come across differently. They were just – they were blown away by that.

[00:52:08] Well, you probably come across as someone who's self-assured and thinks for themselves. And they've seen you on the other side of it, so they can't imagine you in that situation. And you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that you didn't use the word cult for a long time. When did you have the recognition that it may have been or that there were some negative aspects to it that you hadn't seen before? Probably later on, because I kind of shoved it down in my gut for years, for probably 20 years. I didn't really want to even address it and talk about it.

[00:52:38] Probably when I started to revisit what I had been through, probably like in my 40s, I maybe started to think, you know, after also all the media and the things that were going on in the world with cults of people, you know, committing suicide and dying over their beliefs. That made me feel like, hey, we could have gone that way. Right. That could have been us. Absolutely. It could have.

[00:53:04] Like Jim Baker died early, for those who don't know, in a hang gliding accident where he thought he could fly and God would help him, just to sum it up there real quick. Well, maybe God did help him. Or maybe God did. Who knows? Well, that's exactly what he said. He says, I don't care what happens. I give it up to God. If I live, I live. If I die, I die. So he did. He gave it up to that. Because it definitely was going in the direction of Yogi Bhajan. And, you know, we've touched on it, but it's really not your story in terms of the teenage girls and the underage sex.

[00:53:32] And we'll summarize that in the intro separately, because it's not what you went through, but you saw it and you denied it. And that's great. And you got out. And in some ways, similar to us, like you got the good and you were able to leave the bad and you survived. And I'm just curious, like how does Bart feel about his dad? If you feel comfortable saying you don't have to. Yeah. Well, he loves his dad. He was an amazing father to him up until the point where he started his own family.

[00:53:58] So he was probably about 16 when his dad took that turn. But up until 16, he had an amazing father and he loved him very much. And he definitely disagreed with what he did. And I think it's a constant parallel to him, like what he did and that those four or five years and then how he grew up. And I think the way he grew up overrode all the good stuff.

[00:54:28] And he just kind of doesn't focus so hard on the negative stuff. But the only thing is, is that we're making this movie and now he has to focus on it. And I think that's challenging for him because it's going to be out into the world. And actually, they decided to make the movie into a love story about Bart and I. That's great.

[00:54:53] Of how we met from the beginning and like all the stuff that I went through and then how we ended up. Because we've been married for 47 years. I hope I get to meet him. Yeah. Well, if he was here right now, I'd have him come in. Maybe at the ranch. Yeah. We're going to be. Yeah. We'll be living there part time starting in June. What a gift. Yeah. You'll have to say hi to Debra for me. She probably won't remember me. You know, she's going to be 103. She is 103.

[00:55:22] She's 103 now. Like early last week she was anyway. No, her birthday's in May. Well, they introduced her as being 103. I know. They do that. But she's. They round up? Well, she's going to be 103 in May. Okay. So they were just. Yeah. They were rounding up. But actually I told Barry. Who's the. You know. Barry and I are very good friends. So tell Barry that I came up to him afterwards. And I told him I was reading a memoir where the professor and the grape juice was. I didn't mention your name. Did you tell him my name? Because he. I didn't.

[00:55:52] He read the book. Tell him when you talk to him that Sarah was the one who came up after the. By the way, they did a forum, which is very similar to the setup in our group. But I got over that. I got over that setup. I was like a little triggered, but it was okay. I was like, this is a safe place. It's a safe place. And I went up to him and I'm like, Barry, I'm reading this memoir from my podcast. It's about. I was probably. He's probably like, who is this crazy woman? Because I was so excited. No, no. He's not like that. He probably thought it was great. Isn't he the greatest? I just love him. He's the greatest. I know. He's the greatest.

[00:56:22] And sidebar, because I think our audience knows how I get caught up in things. I'm going to stand out the back because it was like eight o'clock. I didn't know how long it was going to go. And I wanted to be able to slip out. And somebody was like, you can't leave if Deborah and Barry are speaking. And I was like, oh yeah, I've been through that before. I can leave whenever I want. Thank you very much. And then somebody. Did you say it like that? In my head. In my head. I was thinking that. And then somebody is like, oh, Sarah, Sarah, we have a spot for you in the front row.

[00:56:51] So I went from trying to stay at the back to sitting in the front in front of Deborah and Barry. And I'm feeling all these feelings like I felt back in my cult where I was like just loving these people, like loving Deborah and loving Barry and being like, I want to be here. This is a wonderful space. But knowing that's what got me in trouble in the first place and having this sort of awareness in my head of like, this is a safe place. They're not trying to hook me into anything. It's just, this is a safe community. But it was so interesting because I was reading your book and the ranch is

[00:57:21] mentioned, you know, and all these things are going through my head of like, how do you go on a spiritual path? How do you be healthy and not get hooked into something where someone's trying to exploit you? So it's all very serendipitous. Yeah. They are amazing people. And it's just going to be a community, not a commune. I mean, there's all different sorts of people that are participating in the residence. I didn't go check out the residences, but I saw it from a distance from the mountain because I hiked every day. And you know what that looks like. I'll send you pictures just to prove that I was there.

[00:57:51] No, I believe you. Thanks. The bag was enough. But listen, just to wrap up. So you went on this journey. What made you decide to write the book? Oh, I know, right. That's the real funny part. Okay. So I never told my kids this story. They didn't know anything about me in that way. Wow. They're all adults now. They're 50, 46, and 39. So minus two years now. Now that's how they are.

[00:58:19] And I just thought, I want to write a book. Nobody's going to read it, but I'm just going to write this book for my kids as a legacy because I think they should know this part of me because they think I'm different than that. They see me as, you know, a businesswoman, as a very disciplined mother with a lot of fun, but I was disciplined. And they thought of me that way. And I thought, you know, they should know the other side of me.

[00:58:45] So my husband went out and got me a ghostwriter without even telling me and just kind of put it together and hired him and said, can you help her write this book? So that's what I did. And then it turned out that people did want to read it and they were interested. But that was never my intention in the beginning. Was it cathartic or difficult or both? Extremely emotional. Very, very emotional.

[00:59:15] It took me two years to write it. And we met like two or three times a week. And it was sometimes like after writing like sections of my book, I mean, I was so completely depleted and exhausted because I really gave it my honest and my all. And I really told it just like it really happened and how I experienced it. And it was like reliving it all over again. It was hard. It was so, so hard.

[00:59:44] Harder than some of the stuff that happened in the Source family. I bet. Well, it's also because you were so young when it happened. And it's not like now where there's like cult survivor support groups and cult podcasts and cult documentaries. You were just- Even just recognizing it. Yeah. You're just like, I'm going to tuck that away and revisit it 50 years later. Like that's a big deal to unpack all that. What's the response been like, especially from like, has there been other members of the group that have, has it been any backlash? Are people supportive? I've had no backlash.

[01:00:13] I've had a lot of support. I've had a lot of people say, oh my God, I didn't know all this about you. This is so incredible. And I think it's been positive for my brothers and sisters. I'm friends with a lot of, you know, there's a core group of us and we're still connected. So some of them are like, God, I always thought about writing my story and how brave of you to write your story. So I think they're just, I think that they're very happy that I did it. And I think that, that it's been good.

[01:00:43] I don't have any negative stuff going on with any of them. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, just a final question to wrap up and we've kind of touched on this, but given the Source family's blend of spirituality and wellness and community and all these things that resonate with some modern movements, what parallels do you see given what's happening right now? And like any advice you'd give to people who are, especially in the wellness influencer spiritual group space, any advice you'd say to them? Well, I would say don't be fanatic in anything.

[01:01:12] Be open to everything. Like don't think one way. I just, I think that's a disservice personally. And don't judge because everyone's got a path that they need to go on. And I believe that I was destined to go on this path and that I had no control to stop it. But try to stay true to yourself and don't let somebody try to make you different and think

[01:01:41] differently than your truth between you and yourself. I personally am not religious and I don't want to be, and I don't want to join like a church or a temple and be one specific way. So I want to be able to love everybody and learn from everyone and understand whatever they're doing and not judge it. And I don't want to be just set in my ways. I want to be open. Absolutely.

[01:02:11] That could be something that I've learned. I've learned so many things, but that would be in a nutshell something. Maybe that's, that's your next book. Lessons Learned from Malibu to the Ranch with Wendy Baker. So many. I mean, going to, living at Rancho La Puerta is going to be kind of like a retirement for me just to relax and breathe and not work so much and just play. I'm telling you, I told Nippy I might not come back. I am so in love with that place.

[01:02:38] And I can't because my kids are six and 10, so I won't be retiring there, but I'll join you in like 10 years or so, maybe 12 years. I'll join you there. Yeah. I know it was hard for me to go. We've been going to the ranch for a long time. It's hard for me when the kids were little to be leaving for a week, you know? Yes. That was not easy. It was hard. Yeah. Luckily I had this guy hold down the fort and do all the baseball practice and all the driving. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was great. That's so nice. I love that. Yeah, it was great.

[01:03:07] But I was depleted. I needed a break because this content can be hard. But this episode I found really uplifting and inspiring and, you know, crazy small world, right? Like what are the chances I'd be listening to your book on the way to the Rancho La Puerta? I mean, that is ironic. I have to say that's crazy. Well, you know, I'll be there a lot. So the next time you come, we'll have to get together. Absolutely. I'd love to hang. I'd love to hang. Well, thank you so much for your time, Wendy. You're a real trooper. I'll tell you that.

[01:03:34] And great that you took the time to write the book because this is a little slice of cult classic life and the original hippie life and all these things. OC or OG? Whatever. We called it the original cult. Goat. Greatest of all time. I don't know. But thank you for taking the time. I really do hope we get to meet in person and you're awesome. Well, thanks for having me. So nice to meet you, Nippy, as well. Likewise. Yeah. Look forward to meeting you guys in person one day. That would be great.

[01:04:06] If you like the show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes. Cults are commonplace now and we're looking at them all and every little bit helps. Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode. So you guys are going to meet up, right? We're going to meet up at Rancho La Puerta. We're going to wear our matching fanny packs. El Rancho. We're going to eat healthy and... Listen to John Lennon and Sharon Wood. Watch Woody Allen movies. Maybe.

[01:04:36] Maybe. Maybe. I just... I really wish I could have been alive in this era. I feel like I would have fit in minus the... Well, you were. You were just really young. I was one. Yeah. Wendy, thank you so much for telling your story on this podcast. Good luck with everything and can't wait to see you in the future. See you at El Rancho. No, just Rancho La Puerta. All right. Rancho La Puerta. Highly recommend. Bye.

[01:05:19] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios. And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.