My So-Called Greek Life: Lucy Taylor Exposes a Culty Collegiate Shitshow

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_08]: The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it?

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_08]: New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it?

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Each week on A Little Bit Culty we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_08]: There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at alittlebitculty.com.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Take it down, take it down to the ocean, hanging on to the wind in my love.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Good morning. All right, here we are. Snap.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Honestly, I knew nothing about sororities other than what you see in the movies before we started prepping for this podcast.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was pretty peripheral in my life. I wasn't into that scene.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't even know if my university had a sorority or fraternity but when we were leaving Nexium I could always tell if somebody was still indoctrinated, if I told them what had happened to me and they would say something like,

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_08]: but what exactly is bad about it? And then I'd feel like I got punched in my stomach because the normal response to human branding is what the fuck?

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: No, if the initial response is an outrage then you're talking to someone that's been word saladed.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Head fucked. Yeah. And fine, we don't have to use the word brainwashed as per our conversation with Amanda Montell.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_08]: We can say indoctrinated. We can say it's not appropriate given what happened in Jonestown but people understand the concept of drinking the Kool-Aid even though it was flavored.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_08]: But you're still under a false belief system that somehow branding should be part of personal development.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, the next question when talking to people who are still indoctrinated was, but sororities and fraternities brand people all the time.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: First off they don't do it all the time. Number one.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Well it was the first time I was like, you know because I was still in the doubting stage like am I crazy? Like did I somehow misunderstand?

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Like you say to me like we missed did we misunderstand Keith's genius in regards to human branding?

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Remember when I asked Josh Block after escaping nexium after he'd interviewed me, I'm like Josh is this bad?

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Like I'm so trained to doubt myself.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_08]: And he's like look if a group of women got together and wanted to do this it would be not normal.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_08]: It would be fringe.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_08]: But the thing is that as soon as you introduce that there's someone involved who's a male in an all women's empowerment group

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_08]: be extracting close-ups of women's genitalia for their personal spank bank or even just to have for a future black male.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_08]: And as soon as you have the black male in the name of collateral and as soon as you have people involved who are being withheld from you it's a major problem.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you remember that conversation?

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_08]: My point being is that in the time of trying to tell people what was going on we got met with this blank stare of what's so bad about it

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_08]: and fraternities and sororities do it all the time.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_08]: You hadn't even heard of that?

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_03]: First of all it's not true. It's not true. They don't do it all the time.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_08]: There is branding that goes on most more in fraternities. It was very rare.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: There's one where they actually put an omega on the upper arm and the only reason I know this is because the YMCA that I grew up in had a lot of guys that used to play basketball with, not a lot, just a handful of them.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember thinking what the fuck happened there.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It made yours look pretty tame. It was a big omega.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_08]: It was a big one.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_03]: On the bicep on the upper arm.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. And it is illegal in some states, but it's no longer a common practice in fraternities.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Most Greek councils have denounced it.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, I bring this up in that I hadn't know much about sororities other than what I'd seen in 80s movies about college debacles.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, needless to say even if your relationship is superficial with fraternities and sororities they've been controversial for a long time.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And we get into that a little bit in the podcast.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember hearing stories when I was even applying to college that scared me away from being in a fraternity.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So first and foremost, I just wasn't going to be someone's slave or get hazed.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I just wasn't not into that shit.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, when Lucy reached out to us about her sorority experience, like I said, I didn't know much about it.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_08]: But when I did the deep dive into her podcast, snapped, I was blown away at the similarities in the structures of abuses of power and all the things that we've been talking about in a little bit culty.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Everything. It has all the bite model ones.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Give it a listen. It's quick too. It's a quick podcast to listen to. It's well done.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_08]: So let me tell you about Lucy in her freshman year of college, Lucy Taylor accepted a bid into a top tier sorority at the University of Maryland.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_08]: That decision altered the trajectory of her college experience entirely.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: She shares the grisly details of her Greek life horror story and season one of her podcast, snapped.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_08]: After snapped aired, Lucy received a flood of messages from current and former sorority and fraternity members.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_08]: And now in season two of snapped, she's sharing their all too similar and all too horrific stories.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_08]: In season two of snapped, she's sharing their all too similar and all too horrific stories like rampant sexual assault, slut shaming, hazing, racism and misogyny.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: In her words, quote, the organizations are set up for abuses of power. These systems aren't broken.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_03]: These organizations are working exactly how they were made to work. Sounds like the reason we started a little bit culty.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Without further ado, here's our conversation with Lucy Taylor, the creator, editor, producer and host of snapped, a podcast which explores the inner workings of sororities and fraternities. Enjoy.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Lucy, welcome.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I am a huge fan of both of you.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that's sweet. I was really touched when you reached out and started researching and listening to your pod.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_08]: I was like, oh, this is such, this is so perfect.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. When I was watching the vow, I've watched it three times now, but the first time I was watching it, I was like, oh my God, I need to grab a notebook.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just started taking notes because of all the similarities that I saw.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Wow. Just wanted to say that I really appreciate that you reached out and I know I've shared this with you when we were chatting on the phone, but it's important for me for so many different reasons.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_08]: But one of the sort of through lines of this conversation is that when we were leaving and recognizing that what we were part of was not what we thought it was, the narrative within Nexium was,

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_08]: but what's wrong with branding? Sororities and fraternities do it.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_08]: And I didn't really have the understanding of what's, listen, I never went to a sorority.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_08]: I went to a university where that wasn't a big thing.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that may have existed, but I wasn't even aware of it.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_08]: So I only had like what's in the movies around sororities.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Nippy tells me that what's in the movies is pretty accurate generally.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that true? Do you think?

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously when the movies are doing it, they're doing a little bit of a parody of it, but it's not far off.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that right? Do you think Lucy is someone who's been in it?

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Is how the world sees sororities and like the media is that's pretty accurate?

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think it is accurate in a sense, but I think that it also is more intense than they make it seem.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't think that they show the manipulation and the coercive part of it.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they're not exactly nuance when it comes to the abuse.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_03]: They keep the abuse aspects of it pretty superficial.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. Well, let's bring the audience up to speed with your story.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_08]: This is always so hard when you've come through the other side and you know what you know now,

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_08]: but before you knew what you knew and you were joining, can you bring us back to the excitement of being,

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_08]: wait, I'm Canadian. Freshman is the first.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Call it first year.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_08]: So tell us what was good?

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a college freshman at the University of Maryland, 18 years old, fresh out of high school.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And there were sororities at my school and everyone was rushing.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Rushing is what you do to join the sorority. There's like a whole entire recruitment process,

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: which is essentially a beauty pageant.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was very clear that rush was based on appearance, but it was more of an unspoken thing.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there was this tier system within the sororities.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is top tier, middle tier, bottom tier, like a caste system essentially.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And being a little 18 year old freshman who wanted to be liked and validated,

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I of course wanted to be in a top tier sorority.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I went through the rush process, which is either a very exciting process.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're being asked back to the houses or it's a very detrimental process for your mental health

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're being essentially told that you're not pretty enough

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: or your personality isn't cool enough to be joining one of these groups.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But of course when I got into a top tier sorority, I felt like I was on top of the world.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: No one could tell me anything.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just a total moment of validation for me.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So in that moment of validation, all I could do was continue

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and be excited about all of these new friends that I was making

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and all of these new people that I could now sit with in the dining hall.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And right when I got back from a recruitment, there was like a little bear on my door,

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a cut out bear saying alpha fee loves Lucy.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you know, I got a big, which is like a big sister in the sorority.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you get a big, you get like a basket full of sorority apparel

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and lots of little goodies.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_08]: I would have been sold right then by the way.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_08]: I love baskets of goodies.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Same.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_08]: I was sold.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Love bombing.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Totally love bombing.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Scented candles.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Was there candles?

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Bath salts.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_03]: That's love, that's love right there.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, I guarantee there was vanilla scented moisturizer.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_08]: You know what?

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You're absolutely right.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I knew it.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I would have been in a sorority.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_08]: No, but you know, I have to tell you Nipi and I didn't talk about this,

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_08]: but when she was talking about that first stages and there is definitely a lot of similarities with our personalities, Lucy, never mind the musical theater background.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_08]: But like it's not an abnormal thing to want to be liked, right?

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, some people don't care.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Some people are somehow bulletproof towards that wound.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_08]: But like it is a, it is a thing, especially when you're 18 and you want to fit in and you want to find your tribe and your community

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_08]: and you're like, you don't know anybody.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I totally got caught up listening to your podcast being like, yes.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Yay.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_08]: And first of all, how do they even decide who the tears are?

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Like what makes a top tier a top tier?

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_08]: I just had to ask that.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's based off of how liked you are by the fraternities.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And how hot the fraternities think you are.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so it's in reference simply to the validation you get from the fraternities.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what determines a top tier sorority.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Essentially, yeah.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So the sororities are there like on behalf of the fraternities and that really translated also in the way that we socialed with them.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they were in charge of the alcohol on campus and we went to their houses as their guests and as a good guest, we had to show them a good time.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: What does that mean?

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Intacitly, what's a good time?

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It means essentially having sex but not being slutty, if that makes sense.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a really weird like fine line where you can't really win either way.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, essentially it means having sex with them.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's not on the brochure.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: They have a very wholesome front.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Like in during recruitment, you're not allowed to talk about alcohol.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But then once you're in, you're drinking three times a week with these people minimum.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_08]: How do you even have time to study and like go to school?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_08]: In this podcast, I was like sorority life seems to take up everything.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Like are you actually going to classes too?

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You are.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's nice that your sisters are going to classes too and you can study together and get like notes from someone and get the answers to a quiz.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And like in the sorority house, there's literally binders full of notes from like every class in college.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have like an instant community of people to help you get through classes.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_08]: So let me just backtrack for a second.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_08]: So the inconsistency that I saw right from the beginning, I would have been very confused was this like wholesome all this emphasis on how you present yourself as a member of Alpha Phi.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Or any sorority I'm imagining.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And then there's this specifically like you can't show too much cleavage or your dress can't be too short.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_08]: You can't look slutty.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_08]: But then there's these group chats about sucking cock before you go out to see the fraternities.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Am I right?

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You're exactly right.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_08]: What was that like for you?

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, maybe this is the next question in terms of like the first red flag.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Was that one of the first red flags that you saw?

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it definitely was a moment of confusion for me.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I would have moments just being like why are they telling us that we can't wear like a crop top to the beach theme social or something like that.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Just little things that our pledge mom would tell us in meetings about what we could or couldn't do.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how the snap system came about, which is the system that they use to monitor our social media.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we post something that isn't in line with their standards, they comment snap and something that I didn't reveal in the podcast because I didn't mention Alpha Phi.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But now I am mentioning Alpha Phi is that snap actually stands for so not Alpha Phi.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh yeah.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_08]: I was wondering, I was wondering why snap was the term that was used because in your first season of your podcast, you don't talk about the name.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Were you afraid of retaliation or what was that decision?

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I was definitely afraid of retaliation and I didn't want to make it seem like this is an Alpha Phi expose because Alpha Phi is like very known to be a problematic severity.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted to make it clear that it's not just this severity and this chapter.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Other subordains do the same exact thing and I didn't want that to be the focus of the podcast.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: That's smart.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Question about the preening that they were doing, I guess for the fraternities.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Did you get the impression that that's what you were doing right away or when did it become aware to you that like wait we're just catering to what the fraternities want us to be like?

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Does that make sense?

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that I realized that right away.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that maybe a moment that I had some sort of realization about it was when they were telling us that we weren't allowed to leave the post games until like 1230 and a post game is basically the after party, like after the social with the frat.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Like when they would start reprimanding us for not going to the socials and they would say things like these guys have put so much effort into this party, like stuff like that to guilt us into going.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It's volleyball.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_07]: That seems...

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Post game is the equivalent of midnight volleyball and his pads.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_08]: We'd backtrack for a second.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_08]: So we always ask our guests like what did you think you were getting into?

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And when I listened to your podcast, I definitely could see and I would imagine also being 18 and being like really caught up into all of the excitement and the good parts, the camaraderie, the social support system, you know, feeling like you got a bunch of girls that, you know, young women that have your back.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Is there anything else that you want to share that was like you thought you were buying into or getting into that so people understand what it looks like?

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely the instant community but also the validation factor of it all.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the people in it are very conventionally attractive and oftentimes come from wealthy families.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And I say this in the first episode of my podcast, but I really had the feeling that like if anything bad happens at all, like it's fine because my sister's dad is a lawyer now or like, you know, I just felt like I had this group of people now that had my back for anything and I would have theirs too.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just also gave me a really big social life like going to college is so expensive in general and it feels like the way to get your bang for your buck, especially in the partying realm is to join Greek life.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_08]: And also from what I understand is that with fraternities and sororities once you're in, it's like it's a lifetime membership and that you have a bond with sisters internationally or just I guess just in the US.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's how it's sold.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's a huge aspect as well.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I see that with UNIP like you weren't in a frat but you're a Brown alum and there's a huge support.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't have that really.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, maybe I do and I don't tap into it with my university, but it definitely seems like that's a real American.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And the concerns interestingly enough, Sarah, like when I was applying to college Greek life was under fire at a lot of the colleges.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that's in the 90s.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_08]: 90s.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's been a long time coming for a lot of these structures.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But when you go to, you know, a college that's an insular environment, I think Maryland is one of the biggest colleges in the United States.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's over 50,000 students.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So you're not going necessarily.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I think they thrive at bigger college campuses because you're going to a small city and you want to find a group there, which I think makes a lot of the state schools different than a lot of the other ones because you are 18.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_03]: You're moving to a new city and you need a group.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You need it quickly.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Or like you mentioned in your podcast with Alexander Stein calls a situational vulnerability.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_08]: You're at a crossroads in your life.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_08]: You don't have a community and that makes you vulnerable to this system that's in place and is set up to like, welcome, like, envelop you for the moment you step on campus.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And promise you exactly that.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And to help you.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_08]: So a couple of specific moments in your podcast, could you share with our listeners when you first had moments of like WTF but couldn't wrap your head around it or went along with certain things because you didn't really understand what you were seeing at the time.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So my first moment of what is going on was actually the day after bid day where we received our bid to the severity.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So we weren't yet initiated, but we had, we were now pledges.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I woke up that morning with a text from my pledge mom telling me that I had to delete.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was three Instagram pictures from my Instagram that did not reflect the chapter well and something that they ingrain in your head is you're not just representing yourself.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You're representing the entire chapter.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And that started right when I got my bid.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason why I had to take these pictures down was they didn't say this, but she was insinuating that they were quote unquote too slutty.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I was showing too much skin in these pictures and that was not a good representation of their chapters.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_08]: So just a quick sidebar.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I know that you sent me the link to alpha fees current Instagram and just scanning that made me think, wow, this is an escort site.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03]: It did have a girl's gone wild vibe to it.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Are they just unaware that things change after you left?

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it just a way to control people and fuck with their heads?

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Like what is going on here?

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_08]: This does not make sense to me.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think they're very picky about it.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like as I was talking about before kind of like you have to be sexy but not slutty.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess my pictures were heading in the slutty direction.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: She's mad you oversold.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So just for context, you're on vacation when you get this, right?

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So the first time it happened I was in college in the dorm.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So that wasn't when they did it publicly.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: This was a private message with me and my pledge bomb.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just deleted the pictures because I had literally just gotten my bid and I was like, all right, I'll do what I need to do.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But the second time that it happened and the more traumatic experience, the first time it wasn't traumatic,

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but the second time it happened I was on vacation and I posted a bikini picture of me and my friend laying on the beach.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I got a few comments from my sorority sisters, the older girls, you know, there's that older girl, younger girl dynamic commenting snap.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So not Alphabee.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And then other older girls liked their comment.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I see.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they sent an email out about it saying, love the beach pics but let's keep our butts tucked away from here on out to the whole chapter.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_08]: How was that for you?

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It was really, really difficult for me.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt laborgasted just like who do you think you are to tell me one would I can and cannot post on social media?

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I kind of do understand like if it was like alcohol and you're part of an organization and I'm under 21.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I get that.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But they were crossing a boundary and I felt like I couldn't say no.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I felt like I just had to take the picture down.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And while I did stand up for myself telling them that this is slut shaming and this is not okay with their doing,

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I was met with kind of like sucks for you.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I read all the messages in the podcast, but essentially they just stopped replying and I was left with all of these emotions and with no one to go to because I felt like I couldn't really say anything else.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And then even the sisters that I was talking to were defending the Savorete's choice.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know about the Savorete or about what anyone was doing, especially if they were an older girl.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that time I was still a baby is what we were called because they weren't allowed to call us pledges anymore.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So they called us babies.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: They gaslight you?

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know in that moment.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you came to them with a complaint or grievance and you left feeling like it was your fault, the conversation.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03]: That's gaslight.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess they did gaslight me because they said like, I'm sorry you feel that way.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a perfect example.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They definitely gaslight you.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I heard that in your podcast.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry you feel that way.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, right.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you didn't have a chance.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you don't have a chance because they're never going to see that you might have a grievance.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_03]: They're just going to make sure you walk away doubting what you saw.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, well, because basically they're sort of taking responsibility like and being kind in a like presentational sort of way.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Like we're here for you and I'm so sorry you feel that way.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_08]: But really it's your issue that you feel that way.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And not, not, I'm so sorry that we did this and didn't take into account how it would make you feel when we wrote a group letter and clearly like pointed out your infraction and everyone knows it's you.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_08]: It's really humiliating is what it is.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_08]: It was.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And then they're saying that they didn't do that.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the gaslighting.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_08]: We didn't humiliate you.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_08]: We're just upholding standards.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Which aren't even consistent.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_08]: So that's like, right.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's the abuse.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_08]: And that they know better because of ranking system, you know, you're not using sashes and stripes, but you have a ranking system with the ages.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Which to your credit, you know, I was thinking about it, you didn't last long because of your instincts.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I lasted seven months.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Good for you.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it didn't work on you.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You didn't let the indoctrination happen to you for whatever reason.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I also kind of did.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you did for it to a degree, to a degree.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So did Sarah and I.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_03]: In our situation.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like hook, line and sinker in different, different ways.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the ways that you're talking about right now, but it didn't win.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess is what I'm getting.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Ultimately.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You never really bought in entirely.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You did to a certain extent.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Lucy has, and I again, I relate so much like we have a similar personality in that

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_08]: because of the what next thing would call my like me disease, whatever you want to call

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_08]: it for yourself.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, we're willing to go along with things to a certain degree and, you know, sure

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_08]: I'll do that.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_08]: But inside we're like, fuck you.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Until the boundaries are crossed so much that you're willing to take a stand and blow

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_08]: it all up.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_08]: So before we get to that, you shared the first thing.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_08]: What were some of the other things that were red flags that caused you eventually

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_08]: to wake up?

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think just the fact that everyone was always watching each other in ways that

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: there was like this tattletailing kind of system going on was certainly a red flag for me.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that there was like severity standards, which is basically like severity court, which

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is they have it so that everything is internal and you never need to go to the school

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or to the police or anything or to whoever to get help about a situation because they want

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to keep it all inside and just how there's a house that they want you to live in so that

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: like you can become even more indoctrinated and you're literally surrounded by your

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: sister's 24 seven.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just kind of felt like I was always being watched, especially after the incident

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: over the summer.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not a healthy feeling to feel that.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's like rampant in religions with, you know, God is watching.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Now it's now it's your pledge mums watching.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And also you're a little bit on the radar for sure.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And everyone in the chapter knew it because they sent an email to the whole chapter and

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: my text messages with my pledge mom were sent to the older girl group chat.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was, you know, everyone had their say.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_08]: We tell our stories.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_08]: We change the world.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_08]: A little bit called he is proud to support the hashtag I got out project, which empowers

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_08]: survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online as a catalyst for education,

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_08]: prevention and healing.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement and find resources at I got out.org.

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[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You were thinking about the chicken salad.

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[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: No disrespect to you.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I'm going to try to not be offended, but I get where you're coming from.

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[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's kind of like their own personal cancel culture.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But then I moved into the house a month or two after that happened and

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: things just went even more downhill.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that I was able to fight back a little bit when I was

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: on vacation because I wasn't surrounded by my sorority sisters and I

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: had like one of my best friends with me who was telling me like this is

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: insane.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think if I didn't have that things would have been a little

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: different.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But once I moved into the house, the sorority house and I was

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: surrounded by sorority, sorority, sorority, it got a lot worse for

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: me.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_08]: So you were isolated from the rest of the world.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think, you know, Alexander Stein talks about that so well in

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_08]: her book.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Like that's such a key thing.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And they do that right from the beginning as well.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like right when you join, all of a sudden your schedule is packed with

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: new member meetings and ice skating with your sisters and like

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: bonding activities such as sitting in a circle and sharing your

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: worst trauma.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, mm-hmm.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, they isolate you from the start and they exhaust you

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: from the start as well with a full schedule where you have no

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: time to actually think about what you're doing.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Sounds familiar, Sarah.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_08]: So to recap so far, we've had the love bombing.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_08]: We've had the pressure to conform, the controlling how you

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_08]: dress and present and post and gaslighting.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Gaslighting.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Keeping you exhausted.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Keeping you exhausted.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Keeping your schedule so full you don't have time to think

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_08]: and like think critically about what's happening.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_03]: What about language?

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_03]: They do anything particularly in language?

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_08]: There's so much language control.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_08]: There's all the different acronyms.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they would always say trust the process during

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: recruitment was something they always said.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And that reminds me of, I think Keith said like trust your

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: experience.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you're familiar with Amanda Montel's

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: work but there are these terms called thought interrupting

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_03]: cliches.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to get her book.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: When you read her book or you think I looked at her book,

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03]: she does a really good job of discussing language and a

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_03]: thought terminating cliche is something like boys will be

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_03]: boys or it is what it is.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So there are these things that you have an inquiry to

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_03]: ask questions about and someone just goes, the one I

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_03]: heard that really chopped my ass to this whole thing is

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Greek life isn't for everyone?

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's like you're airing a grievance and someone

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_03]: just dismisses it with a thought terminating cliche.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Like Greek life isn't for everyone.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's gaslighting too.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a form of gaslighting.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So all those little terms that you're getting are not

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: necessarily they know they're doing it but on a

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_03]: subversive level, they're basically hearing a grievance

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and dismissing it with a thought terminating cliche.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know that really chaps my ass too, especially

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: because people still say it like in the comment section

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of my podcast and just everywhere it's their favorite

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: thing to say.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It is so gross.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Just hearing that and hearing how many times you ran

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_03]: into that to me was like, anyway, my word salad on

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that is on that one today.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So I did you a little solid.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Perfect.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Our equivalent of that was you know not every, some

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_08]: variation of like not everyone's up for the

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_08]: growth path.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_08]: If people left it's like yeah well I guess they

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_08]: weren't strong enough to work through their issues.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think Keith said to Bonnie when she was leaving

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that she was committed to being a victim, something

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: along those lines that also reminded me of Greek

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: life isn't for everyone.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the idea that it's always your fault, never

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the organization.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_08]: That's part of the abuse of power.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_08]: There's all these protective mechanisms in place

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_08]: right from the beginning to protect the you

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_08]: know the abuser and this you know in this

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_08]: case.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: The whole system really.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_08]: The whole system.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Even if you were to get a complaint across to

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_08]: say your pledge mom it's not going to get up to

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_08]: nationals which is like the franchise, the

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_08]: franchise of the of the sorority if I understand

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_08]: the structure.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_08]: You know like there's not going to it's not

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_08]: going to make any dent in the overall programming

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_08]: and goal of the sorority as a corporation

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_08]: really.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Well okay I'm saving my chaps my ass.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Heads up on that.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_08]: What eventually caused you to snap out of it.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So I definitely think what happened over the

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: summer was the start of me to snap out of it.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that you know since I had to I

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: already signed a housing contract and was

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: moving into the house there was no really

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: way for me to get out of it.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I just had to keep being in the

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: sorority but then once I moved into the

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: house I was living in a very toxic environment.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I lived in a quad with three quote unquote

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: perfect sorority girls who were very into

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the chapter and I was from the beginning

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: very miserable living there but what really

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: got me to wake up I guess was after I was

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: raped I faced really weird messages from

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the sorority about what happened like I

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: never said oh I was raped but I would say

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: like this guy like put his dick inside me

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and I didn't want that.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And the response was like oh like boys

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: will be boys like a cent not exactly that

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: but that's what I heard.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And rape is a very common thing in

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: sororities I mean in college in general it is

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: but like fraternity men are three times more

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: likely to rape someone than a non-fragrity man

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's very very normalized within the

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Greek system and it's so difficult because

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the sororities are always protecting

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the fraternity because they want to be

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: liked by the fraternity.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when I was slowly starting to

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: realize that like something bad happened to

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: me and I'm getting no support from my

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: quote unquote sisters that promised me

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: sisterhood I just felt so isolated and

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: so iced out and then with the mix of this

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: happening to me it was just kind of like

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to get out of here like this is

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: not sisterhood I did not sign up for

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: this like it just became clear to me

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that the sorority was there to protect

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the fraternity and I was just a do-paying

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: member to them I was just giving the

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: money at this point like I was not valued

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: in any way by this organization and I

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: just like couldn't live in that quad

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: anymore especially being surrounded by

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: those three other girls who were so

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: into the sorority I just I felt

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: like I knew that I needed to go but I

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: still had this contract with the

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: sorority house and it was the middle of

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the semester and I didn't know where to

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: go but I slowly like started just

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: dabbling into looking at another dorm

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: or you know anywhere but here so it

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of felt like I was leaving an

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: abusive relationship because I

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02]: literally didn't tell anyone that I

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: was starting to look and then when

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I eventually did move out mid-semester

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I only told my roommates because I had

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to and I told them it was because of

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: my mental health like you know it was

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: it was my fault that I was leaving I was

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: too unwell to be a sorority member

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: anymore but you know that wasn't

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: actually the truth I mean I was unwell

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: not for the reasons that you're

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: saying right yeah right it was a smart

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: strategy it's one we did as well we

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_03]: gave them yeah exactly nothing just

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: gave them something to work with and

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_08]: peace exactly I want to say Lucy like

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm really first of all pissed that

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_08]: happened to you sorry that that happened

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_08]: to you why don't we don't need to go to

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_08]: the details of it I think you walk

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_08]: people through that really well in your

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_08]: podcast and there's no need to rehash

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_08]: it the fact is that it happened and

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_08]: that fact you didn't have the support

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean especially under the guise of

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_08]: sisterhood like it's just the opposite

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and you know it's something that we

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_08]: really try to show our listeners like

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_08]: what are the red flags that is a red flag

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_08]: if what they're saying is one thing and

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_08]: they're doing the opposite that's a

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_08]: fucking huge red flag and that is a major

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_08]: inconsistency because they didn't have your

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_08]: back and they should have and the fact

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_08]: that they wouldn't stand up to the fraternity

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_08]: so that they don't like lose drinking

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_08]: privileges or whatever party privileges

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_08]: like that's disgusting mm-hmm it's a

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_08]: disgusting side of humanity that

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_08]: that happened anyway right and

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the guy who did break me ended up being

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: kicked out of his fraternity

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but it felt like it was happening

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because the fraternity was at

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: stake like because then there was a

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: chance that the sorority I mean that

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the fraternity would be kicked off campus

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or something not because

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: what he did was wrong

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: was because it could be a liability

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah it's not for principled reason

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_08]: it's more for optics optics and

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_03]: then actually doing something that

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: addresses the problem is in

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_03]: way more of an inconvenience than just

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_03]: preserving yourself image you have to

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_03]: do a lot more work so all those

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: things are going to be lip service at first until

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03]: really the root of its address

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah I would like to refer people

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_08]: again to your podcast for the details

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_08]: of how you extracted yourself and you got back

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_08]: on yeah it's a really good

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast well done

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah really well done

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_08]: and there's a couple moments that I also

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_08]: resonated with but I think are really

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_08]: key emotional powerful moments like

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_08]: you driving away from your sorority house

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_08]: with freedom

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_08]: by George Michael playing in the car I was like

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_08]: yes

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_08]: so happy for you

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah I love it

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: literally

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of our theme song yes

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it fit the moment perfectly

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I literally felt like

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I was escaping the sorority house

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: because I wasn't telling

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: anyone that I was leaving and I literally

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: put my stuff in trash bags

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and tiptoed out of

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: there my friend

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: one friend from who wasn't

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: in the sorority helped me move out

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: none of my sisters helped

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: which I think was very symbolic

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: of what was going on at the time

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and yeah I just I felt like

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I was escaping I really

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: did and I felt like

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I was free now

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: even though I would still have to then face

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of backlash to come

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I at least didn't have to

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: go back to that

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: sorority house how did that feel

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it felt really empowering in that moment

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: like I was definitely very

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: anxious because

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02]: of everything going on

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: but I

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: felt a huge

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: weight lifted from my heart

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that was so tense before

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: just knowing that I wouldn't have

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to sleep there anymore and that I

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't have to go to chapter anymore

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and that I didn't have to be in the group chats anymore

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: knowing all of that

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: gave me a huge sense of relief

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_08]: there's a relief to breaking free

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_08]: from conformity yeah

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_08]: you don't always realize until the shackles are off

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_08]: how bound you were

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_03]: until you're out

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_03]: there's a romantic aspect to it as well

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_03]: there's like a romanticized kind of

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm breaking free it's why you see so many

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_03]: throughout history it's been the young

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_03]: people that have breaking free from

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: like these perceived constraints

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: real and imagined on society

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: it has like a romantic kind of

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_03]: primitive purpose to feel to it

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so true and I definitely

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02]: romanticized it in a way

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: with the songs that I was

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: listening to at the time and then

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of course how I disaffiliated

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_02]: officially from the organization

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I love the song

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03]: it's linked to all this stuff

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_08]: are you still a drama major

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_08]: well I'm graduated now

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_08]: but did you do it was it a drama

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_08]: did you get a drama yeah I was a theater major

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_08]: oh yeah

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_08]: but Nippy

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_08]: like I don't know if you appreciated this

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_08]: but like she disaffiliated not with

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_08]: a letter but with a song I just thought that

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_03]: was so great yeah yeah yeah for sure

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Nippy was a jock in university

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_08]: you still are a jock

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_08]: not really quick questions on the song

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_08]: topic was praying by Kesha

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_08]: also ever one of your oh my gosh

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_08]: anthems yes

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_04]: it was oh my god seriously

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I literally have

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: nailed it playlist of all

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: those like anthems and

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: yes praying is on it

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I nailed it

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah would blast that thing in our car

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and she'd be like Nippy I want you to listen to this

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like Sarah come on

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_03]: but listen

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_03]: listen I'm like it's great I get it

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_03]: you know you're free now

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah good for you

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to do it

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_08]: people process in different ways

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_08]: will you share your playlist with me

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_08]: absolutely okay

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_08]: great yeah and music does

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_08]: help I mean not everybody but

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: music I'm on music

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_08]: no this is for me and Lucy

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_03]: let's blast Kesha let's do it

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and then define gravity next

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_08]: oh yes define

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely let's define it

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: be leaving a cult song

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like and then

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so too and then the part where

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: like Glinda and Alphaba

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like Alphaba is trying to convince

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Glinda to leave too

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like it was a whole

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: music video in my head

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just like recording myself

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: in my room talking

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: like literally singing

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: songs and

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: eventually I took

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: a course in podcast production

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and wow I had been working on the

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: web series for like about

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a year maybe at that point

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but once I took the podcast

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: course and realized

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: how

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you can share stories

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: through a podcast

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: like add sounds and

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know ambience

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and music and all that

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I realized that I wanted

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to share the story through

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_02]: a podcast to really put

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the listeners in my shoes

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and so after taking that

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: podcast course and learning how to

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: make a podcast

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I made the podcast

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and I had been

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like taking notes

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: for a long time now at that point

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: this was December

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: 2019 and I left the subordinate

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: in October 2017

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_02]: so I had been kind of working on this project

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: for a long time now

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so I had already all the material

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: like I would just when my

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: friends would go to the bar or something

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I would be like

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: in my room

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02]: working on this project

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it was just always like

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a thing for me to do

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_02]: like in a moment of feeling triggered

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I would just like write in my notes

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: like little details

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: or like things that I remember

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02]: at the point of taking the podcast class

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I already had all the material

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02]: written down now I just had to record it

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and so that's what I did in the second semester

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: of my senior year

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in college and then the pandemic

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_02]: hit and

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: right at the beginning of the pandemic

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_02]: or I guess a few months in

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I released

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the season and that was like

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I released the first episode I believe

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02]: few days before

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I graduated and so it was kind of

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like my send off

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: like

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: deuces and smoothies. So great

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah. And what was the response

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: like? So the response

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: overall has been really

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_02]: really great like so many

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02]: people reaching out

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and sharing their experiences

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think that's the power

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of storytelling it allows others

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to then share their own

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_02]: stories with you or with others

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and of course you know

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_02]: there's those comments that are like Greek life

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_02]: isn't for everyone and those

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: comments that are like my sorority

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: would never do this but

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_02]: overall it's been

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: really really amazing

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and releasing it was just

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: so cathartic because it's a way

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: to reclaim your narrative

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and reclaim

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like everything that happened in your own

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: words and I actually

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_02]: just released a second

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: season of the podcast because

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of the response that I got

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: from the first season like there was just

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_02]: so many people just

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: flooding my DMs with their own

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: experiences and since

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: this is a organization

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that really makes it

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so that people don't go on the

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: record and there are not a lot of

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: outlets to talk about

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: a negative Greek life experience

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I just felt like I needed to make

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_02]: a second season with

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the audience that I had now established

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02]: so that other people could also

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: share the

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02]: negative aspects of their experiences

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that that has been

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_02]: a key part in my healing as well

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: like turning trauma

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: into purpose in a sense

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: my therapist

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: says it's

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02]: post traumatic growth

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_08]: podcast thing

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_08]: we've been learning that it takes a whole lot of different resources

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and different sources of revenue

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and listener support to keep it rolling

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_08]: sponsorships and ads

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_08]: and the occasional appeal to amaze

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_08]: balls listeners like you

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_08]: that's why we added a way for anyone who wants

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_08]: to support the show to do exactly that

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_08]: you can go to a little bit called t.com

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_08]: slash support or the link

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[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_08]: slash support or check out the link in our instagram

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_08]: bios next up we really got to

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_08]: figure out what to call you our listenership

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_08]: albc nation

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_08]: flying monkeys

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[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_03]: about it just the other day you were thinking about

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[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to admit I was

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[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_03]: of culinary satisfaction at home

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: no disrespect to you I mean

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm gonna try to not be offended but I get where you're

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_03]: coming from just maybe I manifested it

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[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_08]: one thing you just mentioned

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_08]: I want to highlight for our audience

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_08]: is that I know you said at some

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_08]: point that there are people who said well

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_08]: that wasn't my experience and that their

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_08]: sorority would never do that I think it's

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_08]: really key that people understand

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_08]: that just because someone didn't experience

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_08]: something doesn't mean it didn't happen to others

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_08]: and you punched that

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_08]: point really well in your podcast and I was

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_08]: like fuck yes when you did because

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_08]: really the answer to that is well great

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm so glad that you had a good

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_08]: experience good for you I'm so

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_08]: happy that you love your sisterhood

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_03]: well that's also not the response to

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_03]: someone coming to you with an infraction

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah yeah it's not

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_08]: appropriate yeah it's not appropriate to

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_08]: say well that didn't happen to me

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_08]: you could say that didn't happen

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_08]: to me and I'm so sorry that it happened

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_08]: to you that's more appropriate

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_08]: you know anything else you want to say on that

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_08]: or how you would want to guide people

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's just kind of unnecessary like

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: no one was asking yeah

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this isn't about it

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: it makes it so that other people

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_02]: can be like oh well

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_02]: this is just that one sorority

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but the fact of the matter

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is that they all have the same structure

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and while it may not have happened to

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: you it could happen

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to someone else two days later in your

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: organization is there hope for

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_03]: great life in your opinion

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: no this is a system

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that's been

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: like people have been trying to reform it

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_02]: for years and years now

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's not able to

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_02]: be reformed hazing is

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: integral to their model

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_02]: without hazing they're just

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know another club and without all these

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: tactics that they do it's

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: integral to keep people

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: loyal and to keep people

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: paying and these are

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_02]: also at the national level

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_02]: these are groups

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that are very racist

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and just

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you know want their incoming

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: white members and have been fighting

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: for many years

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to maintain their as they call it

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_02]: freedom of association

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: which is their freedom to associate

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: with white people and at the

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: national level they don't want to change

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and they won't let any

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_02]: change happen so while

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: so they're protected oh yeah they're very

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: protected and

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: their idea of reform is

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: adding the diversity chair

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_02]: as a new position on exec

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but what that really is

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: is usually the one person

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of color member in the chapter

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02]: doing tons of unpaid labor

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for a system

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that can't change because

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02]: at its roots

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a system of white

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_02]: supremacy that is there to

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: maintain white supremacy

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_08]: wow I did notice on the

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_08]: alpha fee instagram that there was

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_08]: some a little bit of diversity

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe in some of the ethnicities

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_08]: do you think that they're trying to

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_08]: like is that in their quotas

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_08]: or is there like a percentage that they have to

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_08]: meet now or is it just like

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_08]: token I'm not sure

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02]: if they have a percentage in their quotas

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't heard that from what

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I've observed it's just

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: tokenism

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and they used to have restrictive

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: clauses that would

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_02]: forbid any woman of

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_02]: color any Jewish person

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_02]: from joining and once those

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_02]: clauses were

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: banned so to say

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02]: they get strategic and

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_02]: ask the members if this

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: member has silky hair and if she

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_02]: has silky hair she'll get a higher

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: score in the pre-scoring system

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_02]: of recruitment because everyone's being

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02]: pre-scored based on their looks of course

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and so while they can

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: take away the written clause

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that will discriminate against

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_02]: anyone who's not white and skinny

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_02]: they still are able to be strategic

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_02]: about it and then for the members

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that are women of color

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: like they try and white

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_02]: wash them so to say to fit

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the sorority

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_02]: southern aesthetic mold

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_02]: which I talk more about in the second season

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah regardless

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: of if they let women of color in

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: now it doesn't make it a safe space

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_02]: for women of color and it doesn't make it a safe

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: space for women period

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_02]: these are not groups that empower women

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_02]: even though they say they are

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_03]: are you getting any pushback from these

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_03]: groups?

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_02]: not directly no

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think my podcast has gotten

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_02]: big enough

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: for them to

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_02]: pay much attention to it

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think they're probably paying attention to it

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but not in the sense where they'll

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_02]: try and reach out to me and tell

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02]: me to stop because it's not worth it yet

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean you kind of have the chapters laid out a little bit already

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: just be a matter of organizing

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_03]: it I think

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_08]: right if you want any advice on that

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_08]: or guidance

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_08]: I can help you absolutely

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's important or a scripted series

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_02]: well that's what I'm thinking

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it should be a Netflix

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_02]: or Hulu series

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_08]: for both we could talk about that

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe we should produce Lucy's story

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_08]: let's do it

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm down I want to be

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_08]: a fucking catty bitchy pledge mom

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_08]: that's what I would be

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm already giving myself a role

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_08]: perfect

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_07]: maybe you're the football coach

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_03]: no I'll be the foe

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_03]: like carrying liberal

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03]: like

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Dean or something like that

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_03]: put your hair back

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_03]: put the red tie on

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_08]: that's a key role

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_03]: it is let's see an abler

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_08]: let me see if her audience has any questions one sec

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_08]: someone just wrote

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_08]: a million thousand percent

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_08]: perfect

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_08]: I said do you have any questions

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_08]: but what's called the answer

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_08]: a million percent somebody said

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_08]: is initiation as bad as it seems

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean my initiation wasn't

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but I've heard stories

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_02]: from people who I interviewed in season 2

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_02]: where they do some very questionable things

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like they have to get undressed

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and put a robe on

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and like put their hand on a book

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_02]: like the book of promises or something

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: no one knows but

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it could be bad

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_02]: like for my initiation

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we just kind of wore all white

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know to symbolize purity

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_02]: of course and

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_02]: had to repeat things I honestly don't

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember it that much

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02]: were you holding candles I think so

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and we had like hands and bowls when we walked

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_02]: in the room that we had to do

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah the reason I didn't join a fraternity

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and I went to a college that had a very

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: like very little Greek life

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_03]: like it wasn't was like token green life

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I had heard that some

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_03]: of the hazing with people that were rushing I was like

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_03]: fuck that I'm not doing that

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was the single reason I didn't join

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_03]: a fraternity is like I wasn't going to have someone

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_03]: you have to be available to them all the time

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_03]: they can call you at 3 a.m. and you have to come over

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and one guy was called over at 3 a.m.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and he goes hand me my remote hands

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_03]: was remote because you can go I was like

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_03]: there's no fucking way someone's going to

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_03]: call me to their room at 3 a.m.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_03]: and have me hand on the remote and I'm going to be cool with it

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah so for me I was just like

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_08]: screw that right and that's also why

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Nippy didn't go up the ranks

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_08]: in Nexium too high

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_08]: because he wasn't obedient enough

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_08]: true really that's what you needed to be

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_08]: you had to be fucking obedient

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_08]: that's so true to succeed

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_03]: anyway like that was years ago

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_03]: so for me even just superficially

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_03]: having a relationship with the Greek life

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I always heard that like screw that

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: right and yeah I mean

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: frat hazing is a whole another topic

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean yeah literally

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: men are dying because of it

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_02]: so many I remember when I was growing up

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: this was a problem yeah absolutely

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: man you always heard something peripheral

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and it still exists

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_08]: so what do you say to our the people who

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_08]: still remain loyal in our situation

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_08]: when they say well branding is part

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_08]: of Greek life sororities and fraternities

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_08]: do it what do you say to that sororities

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and fraternities are harmful as well

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and are

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: killing their members

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_08]: well when I hear something crazy I don't think

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_08]: I told you this when we spoke Lucy and Nippy

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_08]: doesn't know much about this because we

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think we were even dating in my early

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_08]: time with next year and so this would have been

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_08]: like I joined in 2005

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_08]: 2006 I was invited

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_08]: to start a new company

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_08]: with Nikki Klein

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Allison Mack and Kristen Crook

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_08]: who and we were all you know we were the young

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_08]: actors now the three of them were famous

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Allison and Kristen were in smallville

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Nikki was in Battlestar I was not famous

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I technically was an actor but wasn't

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_08]: a lead on a show so I was like super excited

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_08]: to be part of this little group right and

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_08]: we were basically invited

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_08]: to find a way to make

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_08]: the curriculum accessible

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_08]: and then a part

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_08]: of the sorority system

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_08]: did you know this no they tied us already

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_08]: no yeah so our

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_08]: assignment and listen I found out later

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_08]: that that's how

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Keith would get close to people it

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_08]: wasn't like hey you want to fuck it was

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_08]: like we're going to do a new project

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_08]: and you're invited to Albany and be

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_08]: a part of the board or like the executive

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_08]: committee or whatever and then

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_08]: take on this new project and the project was

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_08]: finding a way to get nexium

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_08]: to get ESP as we call it at the time

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_08]: executive success programs to college

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_08]: campuses specifically through sororities

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_07]: whoa yes

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: well I imagine he identified

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: the sororities as a place that normalizes

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_08]: abuse and hot young

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_08]: girls yeah hot young women

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: that's a built-in system for him what I

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_08]: didn't realize till later this was one of I think

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_08]: five or six air quotes opportunities

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_08]: I was given to start

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_08]: a new company or a new thing within

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_08]: the umbrella of nexium I didn't do it

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_08]: for two reasons one was that

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_08]: the next step was to fly to Albany

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_08]: and go to the college campuses I think

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_08]: specifically Sunni and find

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_08]: the sorority leaders find the leadership

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_08]: and we were supposed to make like parties

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_08]: and create like a

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_08]: social environment where people could come

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_08]: and essentially party and then we would like

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_08]: introduce them to the caught the concept

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_08]: of rational inquiry and executive success

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_08]: and then bring them into nexium

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_08]: wow so a

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_08]: I lived in Vancouver and unlike the other

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_08]: women I couldn't afford that

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_08]: and it was all like you know

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_08]: you've been given a business

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_08]: so you're the entrepreneur

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_08]: you've got it that's your expense

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_08]: and I was like fuck that well Nikki and Ali

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_08]: did they moved and did

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_08]: the next steps on the company and I slowly

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_08]: we did myself out but the other reason

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I was internally I would have never said this

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_08]: outwardly because then I would have been suppressive

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_08]: and you know gas lit but internally

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I was like college girls are gonna want to do this

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_08]: this is not a good fit

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_08]: like this is not a proper sell

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_08]: I wouldn't have been interested that at

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_08]: 18 you know like introspection

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_08]: and self-awareness and taking

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_08]: responsibility and like these girls want to party

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_08]: right so anyway I didn't follow

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_08]: through and it never

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_08]: amounted to add anything but one of the names

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_08]: that was called 10 C

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_08]: if you spell that out

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_08]: T E N C

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_08]: it's the emperor who had no clothes

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_08]: do you know the story about the emperor who had no

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_08]: clothes do you know that I know like the cartoon

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_08]: okay snippy do you remember

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_08]: the sort of the message behind the emperor

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_03]: who had no clothes yeah he doesn't believe

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: he's naked and he believe it what everyone

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: else is telling him and but you can see that

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_08]: he's naked yes so that was

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_08]: his own little inside joke that he knew

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_08]: something that we didn't know

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah 10 C

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_08]: was a random name we came up for this

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_08]: company for sorority girls to learn

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_08]: next year and learn executive success

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_08]: but really it was an acronym

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_08]: for him being like haha jokes

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_08]: on you which is by the way every single

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_08]: name of his every company

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_08]: has like an inside joke for him

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_08]: that nobody else knows except maybe one or

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_08]: two other people and this is something that we've

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: since wow that is so creepy

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah isn't that creepy oh god

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I feel like people would have joined

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: though like the right group

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because there's the partiers but then

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: there's also the non-partiers

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree that message is specifically

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_03]: designed for someone to right

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah if you're open enough to

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_03]: follow that breadcrumb you're open enough

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: to his other advances yeah

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and college campuses are the best

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: place to get people into

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_03]: cults Keith what dumb

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_08]: no he was strategic for sure

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah what would you say now

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_08]: to other young women like

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_08]: future recruits or people who are like

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_08]: oh my god I'm in the genitser already

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: do your research

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and yes not just

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the sorority instagrams

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: which is their advertising

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: platform

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: look up some bad experiences

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: look into their history

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: mm-hmm you can

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: make friends other places

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it doesn't need to be here

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: while this seems like the fastest way

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it certainly is not

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the best way so true

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_08]: and not it's not a healthy way it's not

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't talk to any of them

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not friends with anyone in it anymore

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I was shunned they're not your real friends

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: they're your friends because you're in the same

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: sorority and you can now post

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: instagram pictures with each other and I mean

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of course there are real friendships in it

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and I did have a few real

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: friends in it but then when I left

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: those quote-unquote real friends were

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: saying you didn't try hard enough

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: or like you going

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to the school to report this

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: might impact some of your

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: really good friends you know like

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: they're having all these mind distortions

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: go on as well in their heads

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah people did that with Sarah they had a

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: problem with how she was holding things

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_08]: accountable yeah they still have a problem with me

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah well all of us

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_03]: right well no one's going to

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: tell you how to defend what's right

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_03]: particularly the people that you're exposing

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah they're always going to have a problem with it

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_08]: speaking of what do you want

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_08]: greek life members to know who are still

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_08]: in what would you say to them I would tell

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: them that I understand

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: how hard it is to get out

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and how it might

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: feel like it's the end of the world

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and you can't even imagine a life without

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it because oftentimes

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: all of your friends are

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in this one group

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: but there is a life

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: outside of greek life

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a lot bigger

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and healthier than the life

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: within greek life

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and I would just tell them to take the

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: leap if they have that instinct

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: if their instinct is telling them

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: something for a reason

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_08]: good for you I was also really asked

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_08]: by like just the conformity around the looks

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_08]: like that you had to present

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_08]: and be polished what are they called

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_08]: the two thirds rule make up hair

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_08]: and clothes you have to have two out of those three things

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_08]: right top top right

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_08]: otherwise people are going to give you feedback on that

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: right so that wasn't in my sorority

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: but that was in someone that I interviewed

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: in their sorority

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but we definitely had that same motto of

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: wherever you go you're representing

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the chapter so you have to look good

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_08]: for us it was as soon as you became a coach

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_08]: you're an ambassador for humanity

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_08]: so you have to act appropriately

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_08]: literally

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't imagine someone telling me at like

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: 2021 it matters how you look

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and how you show up and what you wear

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_03]: like I was wearing sweatpants

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_08]: everyday well it's also just

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_08]: so unhealthy because like this is the age where

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_08]: you're supposed to find yourself

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and get to know yourself and develop

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_08]: your identity and if all you're doing is

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_08]: becoming a drone and looking like

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_08]: when I looked at some of those pictures

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_08]: like I said it looked like an escort site but also

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_08]: at particular events

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_08]: where there's clearly a dress code

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_08]: like tonight you must wear pale pink

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_08]: and gold and

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_08]: everyone looks like they're bridesmaids

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_08]: they're matching

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_08]: there's no individuality

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_08]: that's so unhealthy for a young

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_08]: developing mind I have to say

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_08]: it's so important that you're doing this Lucy

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_08]: and like so proud of you

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_08]: it takes a lot of balls

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: right and the conformity too

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's especially harmful

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: for the women of color when you're being told

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to straighten your hair

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: for recruitment

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: how do you have room

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to embrace what you want to do

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in your identity

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_08]: and your natural hair

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: like why do you have to use

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: heat on your hair for recruitment

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean we know the answer but

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_08]: oh man

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_08]: you've been through such a journey I really hope that

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_08]: good things come your way and you continue

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_08]: to shine light on these abuses

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_08]: and you know I don't know

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_08]: if Greek life will topple but you can

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_08]: certainly make a dent and stop other people

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_08]: from joining and give them the tools

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_08]: to analyze if there's something that they want to do

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_08]: right thank you

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I definitely don't know

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: either if Greek life will topple

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a big

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: big strong force

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: oh it's like a religion almost

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: well it also probably has support

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: from religion and it has

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_08]: support from the government

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_03]: you gotta put it on the schools

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_03]: schools are ultimately

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_03]: reliable for supporting it

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: if you can expose to the schools

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: the inconsistencies of probably with the message

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: of your school boss

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_03]: you have systems in place

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: that aren't in line with that you put pressure on them

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: right it's just

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: wild when a student

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: literally dies from hazing

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and they still won't remove it

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's like what needs to happen

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah like with alcohol poisoning

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: they go out drinking kids are dying

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: well thanks for your work

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: thank you Luz

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and also hearing how you've gotten better at it

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and the evolution of your understanding

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and how you've turned it into wisdom

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_03]: this is the responsible thing to do so I commend you

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you so much

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you too have been huge role models

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: for me during this

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm so honored

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to have gotten the chance to be on a little bit culty

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_08]: and any content provided by our guests

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_08]: bloggers

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_08]: sponsors or authors

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_08]: are their opinion

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_08]: and are not intended to malign any religion

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_08]: group

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: club, club, club, club

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: organization, business individual

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_08]: anyone or anything

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_08]: so just let these words drift

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_08]: into your mind without needing to focus on any of them

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_08]: you are great

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_08]: you are capable

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_08]: you deserve to be happy

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_08]: nobody's mad at you

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_08]: unless you're actually a narcissistic

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_08]: culty criminal

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_08]: if that's you cut that shit out

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_08]: don't be a fuckwad

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_08]: but if that's not you

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_08]: again you are great

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_08]: you are capable

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_08]: you deserve to be happy

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_08]: a little bit culty loves you

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_08]: okay

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_08]: wow I really like her

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_08]: she's a badass

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah no look and she's doing everything

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I think right in terms of what you ought to do

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_03]: when you've been experienced like that

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: so anything that we can support

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_03]: in her writing the wrong I think it's great

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's great that she's doing what she's doing

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and it's pretty impressive that she's been able to

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_03]: gather her thoughts

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: educate herself on doing a podcast

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and then the fact that she

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_03]: saw us as pace cars is great

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: means we're doing our job as well

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_08]: absolutely and I did pose this to our

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Instagram audience

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_08]: if they had any questions for Lucy about what's

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_08]: culty about sororities and somebody asked

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_08]: do they imply women should look a certain way

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_08]: example close size

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_08]: and I don't think we got into it too much

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_08]: but in season 2

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Lucy talks about how new recruits

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_08]: are actually given a look book

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_08]: if people don't know what that means it's like images

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_08]: of what's appropriate for specific

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_08]: events like on this night

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_08]: you need to be all in black

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_08]: you could be wearing a dresser or romper but you have to

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_08]: be wearing heels and pearls and like there's

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_08]: very specific things

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_08]: and like on this night

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_08]: everyone needs to be in a dark wine color

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_08]: dress or romper

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_08]: no pants or like there's very specific

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_08]: things on the checklist and really when you

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_08]: look at the photos of these girls at

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_08]: the events they all match

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_08]: there's like a monochromatic

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_08]: it's like they're... it's a uniform

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah but they're instructing the women what to wear

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_08]: for like the Instagram photo so it looks like

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_08]: something out of a bridesmaids catalog

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_08]: and it's just the conformity of it but there's also

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_08]: like very specific things around hair

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_08]: and makeup

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_08]: I think we spoke about the two thirds rule

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_08]: they had to make sure that of your hair, your makeup

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_08]: or your clothes two out of those three things

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_08]: had to be polished and they were always getting feedback

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_08]: on how polished they were not polished enough

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_08]: has a lot of pressure

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_08]: especially in university my god

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_08]: the other question I thought was interesting was

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_08]: what provides members elitism

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_08]: or sense of entitlement it seems to last

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_08]: for decades did you get a sense of that

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_03]: answer? I think a lot of that starts at home

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_08]: yes but also I did listen to a little bit

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_08]: more of season two than you did and they kind of got

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_08]: into the history of it and

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_08]: I didn't really understand that like

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_08]: you know just like there's these old boys clubs

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_08]: that exist in many different

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_08]: aspects of society this is specifically

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_08]: with sororities as a mirror

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_08]: reflection to fraternities this is the club

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_08]: for the women and it's not just during

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_08]: university you have sisters

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: for life the thing that was disturbing

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_03]: about as it's a club for women

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_03]: as defined by men oh yeah

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: that's true too informed by men

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: it wasn't like the men

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_03]: were taking their cues from the sorority

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the sororities were taking their cues from the fraternities

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah so

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: that to me is kind of where I don't

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: know that's just gross I you know it's hard

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_08]: not to judge it but do you have a word salad for it

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: like I said the amount of times I heard her

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_03]: reference Greek life isn't for everyone

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: it had me going that and I did my word salad

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_03]: around that so great here goes

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: what is it

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Greek life

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: isn't for everyone it's interesting one

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: might argue that the

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_03]: quote-unquote Greek way if you will

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_03]: is in essence the foundation

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_03]: of Western society

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_03]: with its tenets and its

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: principles if you will

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: many of which

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: we have adopted

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: we would be hard pressed to not find

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_03]: the quote Greek life in almost

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_03]: all aspects of culture

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_03]: it is woven into

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: the fabric of humanity into

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Western culture so one can infer

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that to say Greek life

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_03]: isn't for everyone

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_03]: is in a way a rejection of your own

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: humanity if you will

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_08]: that would be Keith if he was a

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: sorority if he was a fraught boy

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Keith would have loved to have been a fraught boy

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_08]: he was so not cool enough

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: look the 10 C thing that you were talking about

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_03]: he basically saw a structure

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_03]: that already had set up some of the

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_08]: abuses in it did he or did he just want

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_08]: some young women look it depends

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: how much credit you want to give him right

[01:15:21] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't want to give him too much credit

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: but if you're looking

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_03]: in our own society and our culture for things

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that are going to be already set up

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: catered to the kind of things that you want to do

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: he seemed to have identified

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_08]: one yeah anyhow well I quite enjoyed that

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I liked it I think Lucy

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: should should write a book or do a series

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_08]: just keep on telling the story

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: well I think the book would lead to it

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you know she's motivated and she's learning

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_03]: quickly enough how this works so I think

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to see that absolutely

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_08]: well thanks babe all right till next time

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_08]: until next time and for anyone who's

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_08]: listening who's a teenager and considering

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_08]: a sorority please do follow Lucy's

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_08]: advice and do your research before

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_08]: jumping on that bandwagon

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_08]: I think there's a real

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_08]: natural desire to have all the things

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_08]: that it offers but I think if you know where it's going

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_08]: it's best to know what you're jumping into

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_08]: until next time bye from us

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: let's keep the conversation going

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_03]: we'll be back soon with more episodes of

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: A Little Bit Cultie with more experts and survivors

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and sometimes

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_03]: experts who are survivors as well as some

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_03]: familiar faces from the Val from HBO

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_03]: if you've got suggestions or questions

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_03]: on upcoming topics find us

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[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_08]: my memoir scarred the true story of how

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_08]: I escaped nexium the cult

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[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_03]: just don't be a little bit cultie

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_08]: about it. A Little Bit Cultie is

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_08]: executive produced by me your co-host

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Sarah Edmanson and Anthony Nippy Ames

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: that's me

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Associate producer is Jess Tardy

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_08]: produced, edited, mixed and

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_08]: mastered by citizens of sound

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_08]: our amazing theme song

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Cultivated is by John Bryant

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm Sarah Edmanson and thanks for listening to

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_08]: A Little Bit Cultie