PATREON REPLAY: A Chat with Susan Dones

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[00:00:12] organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. Hey everyone, it's Nippy here. Here's a replay from The Vaults that was originally broadcasted especially for our A Little Bit Culty Patreon crowd. You can get more of this kind of thing

[00:00:25] plus ad-free flagship episodes and other exclusive treats if you hang out with us on Patreon. Cult chilling. Sometimes we zoom, sometimes we make word salads, you never know. So come on over,

[00:00:35] why don't ya? All the cool kids are doing it on Patreon. Find us at patreon.com slash A Little Bit Culty. Hi everybody, welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, our special bonus, mini-soad with Susan Dones as per your request. We're very excited to have the OG

[00:00:57] that's original gangster for those who don't know Susan Dones. We're not going to call her Proctor Susan Dones, but she was a Proctor which means she worked her butt off and she worked

[00:01:05] her butt off in Nexium and she worked her butt off outside of Nexium in the courtroom defending herself and we're going to hear all about that and all the juicy details. Welcome Susan Dones, we're A Little Bit Culty. Welcome Susan.

[00:01:15] So we posted on our Patreon that we're going to be interviewing you. We had like 30 messages in a very short period of time. We're going to get to as many of them as we can.

[00:01:23] In the interim, how are you? How is your life and how is it watching Season 2 of The Vow? I'm good. Life is good and watching Season 2 of The Vow is much different than watching Season 1.

[00:01:35] Season 1, we're all kind of on pins and heels wondering if Keith was going to actually be found guilty and Season 2 is a lot different because it's mostly focused on Nancy Salisman and I think we're all in a much different place. We've had time to heal our wounds and

[00:01:51] Keith's in prison and yeah. Live normal lives. Agreed. What's the thing that's been the most startling or is it all like nothing surprises you now? Oh gosh, yeah, you know, it's not really

[00:02:01] startling for me because I think as most people know, I didn't spend a lot of time with Keith. Nancy was the person that I spent my most time with and so, you know, I know her secrets,

[00:02:12] I know her lies and so it doesn't startle me. You know, she opens her mouth and in my opinion, a lot of lies come out and a lot of manipulation comes out. So it's really interesting

[00:02:24] to watch her say certain things that I go like, what, what? You know, so it's interesting to watch and so I posted a lot of stuff on Twitter if anybody's interested to go in and read it,

[00:02:36] you know, I'm under my own name and stuff and so it's like, what, what? That's not true. It just shocks me that, you know, of course they filmed this before she was sentenced and stuff.

[00:02:49] I don't think she's in denial. I think she's just a liar in my opinion. Yeah. The more she talks the more she reveals herself. She's unraveling, you know, that's one of the things that's interesting to watch in the

[00:03:01] vows. It just unravels herself. You know, first I didn't know anything and then now she's like, well, I had to manage his women. It's like, oh, you didn't know anything and now you're managing his women. I think so.

[00:03:13] Does she not know that she's talking out of both sides of her mouth? No. I guess when it's hard to keep track of them. As we know from that module about lying. A lie is a horrible thing to try to mind. Yeah.

[00:03:30] Yeah, I don't know. It just, just amazes me. So yeah. Well, a lot of our listeners just have, as do we, the utmost respect for you and that you're, you know, Karen Kitty B says that you're brave and bold soul.

[00:03:45] And Jolene Bishop says, I appreciate your courage and fortitude, your tenacity to not give up in the lawlessness is admirable. What's your thoughts on the loyalists and where they stand? Gosh, you know, I've spent a lot of time being mad at them.

[00:03:58] And then I read Yanya, I have not through with it, but I read parts of Yanya Lollie just bounded choice and that helped me a lot to realize, you know, that they're just stuck, you know, and they're doing what they think is important for them.

[00:04:14] And it's hard to be mad and sad at them at the same time. Although I spent years being mad and sad, like you guys for a long time. So now what I'm doing is just trying to give them space to let them do their thing. And yeah.

[00:04:30] That's my thing. Yeah. Leave them alone. Just hold out hope that, you know, someday they'll wake up. Well, what it will take is nothing that we're going to do and more information and more facts. Right.

[00:04:43] And I've told Sarah this and it's going to happen like one day, you know, Nikki will be in a coffee shop and someone will ask her out and she'll start to consider,

[00:04:52] hey, what if I went on a date with someone, you know, and had coffee with someone or like and started to consider a life outside of it and then, you know, started to cut or,

[00:05:01] you know, one of them just realizes that life is better outside of next year. Life is better. Yeah. You have the awareness that like I don't have these shackles.

[00:05:09] It was one of the things that I was surprised Nancy to say when he went to Mexico, I felt relieved. Well, I think that they have to have had to consider that right now. This is what I suspect and I don't have any proof to back it up.

[00:05:23] But this is what I suspect. This is that Claire pays them to help do all the things that they're doing to free Keith. And so, you know, they get paid to spend time on social media and gathering up their so-called social evidence, you know, to help free Keith.

[00:05:45] And so right now they're happy because they get a monthly paycheck or a weekly, bi-weekly paycheck to do the things that they're doing to try to free Keith. And once Keith runs out of options, I mean, he we're waiting for the Second Circuit to come back

[00:06:00] with their decision and then Keith has a number of motions in front of Judge Grafis. And then when those run out, Keith will of course appeal to the Supreme Court. And then once that's all said and done, he has no other recourse.

[00:06:13] And then once that's all done, I mean, his only thing left is he can continue to sue whatever prison he's in. I mean, it's looking like based on stuff that's going on in his civil suit with the BOP

[00:06:27] Tucson that he is probably going to get transferred to another prison because of all the antics he's pulled at the MDC and the MDC prison Tucson. And so will he get transferred to Texas?

[00:06:42] Probably not. It's not a safe place for him because you put him in general population as a pedophile, he'll probably get beat up pretty bad. So I've heard it's Colorado. Yeah, it's probably more likely Max prison Colorado. And then he's been stripped of his

[00:06:57] visitation with his loyalists because they pull all kinds of shenanigans, which makes it unsafe for the staff. And then it's looking like he's riled up the prisoners, which he got attacked for to get punched. Right. I'm still trying to figure out how he even had access in the

[00:07:13] first place. Like wouldn't it make sense if you're the crime boss to not have any access with your followers from jail? Well, you have to give him a certain amount of rope to hang himself. Well, Nicky, Sunil, you know... Oh, Sunil, you mean his attorney?

[00:07:31] Before we lose this, you mentioned Claire. Claire is a concern of mine. I want to hear your thoughts. Well, you know, this is where I have that kind of feel bad, feel sad.

[00:07:41] I didn't think for Claire because Claire came in, she just all she wanted to do was be a better Olympian, you know? And Nancy weaponized Claire for Keith, you know? And I mentioned that at

[00:07:53] Nancy's sentencing and I don't know if you guys saw Rich and Shameless. It's on HBO. I did. Yeah. I saw it. I felt really bad for Claire and I still feel really bad for Claire, but she has to be held

[00:08:06] accountable for what she did and she has been horribly weaponized. And when you take a person like Claire who has the financial resources that she does, she needs money. I think it's Sunil runs to Claire and says Keith needs more money for his defense. And so,

[00:08:25] and Claire just opens her checkbook. She's been opening her checkbook since they needed $2 million and so Claire and Sarah opened up their checkbook and gave them $2 million and without a loan agreement in place. And then they've never paid them back since then, then 68 millions in the

[00:08:41] commodities market, 24 millions in the real estate, the buckle and millions ever since then. And so, and Claire just does it now believing that Keith loves her. Well, capable of love. John Gudritz asks, what does she think of our judicial system after what she

[00:08:58] went through? Well, unfortunately in the United States you can sue anybody you want. And it's meant to be a fair system, but you can falsify claims against anybody you want and you have to defend yourself. And if the truth is on your side, you win. And unfortunately,

[00:09:20] I had the tenacity to stand up and fight for myself. And I told the judge that when on day one, when he said, these are very serious charges against you, Miss Jones. And I advise that you get an

[00:09:30] attorney. And I told him, I wish I could have an attorney, but I stand before you broke. And I can't afford an attorney. I said, but these are lies against me and I will prove to you

[00:09:40] that every single one of them is a lie. Good for you. So many people asked and I'm not going to read all of them, but similar questions of like, how did you have the strength? What was that like specifically? Jessica Freel said, did you want to strangle

[00:09:52] Claire during her deposition when Susan said what is Keith's job? And Claire kept saying he's Vanguard because I wanted to strangle her for Susan and say that's not a job, Princess Winecooler. And two, was there a moment when you realized, wow, even though this has been catastrophic,

[00:10:06] I clearly see how psycho this all is. So I'm getting the better end of the deal. That's Jessica's question. Well, you know, the thing with they were so stupid to say Claire to be Nexium's expert witness. And unfortunately, but fortunately, I enjoyed having Claire on the

[00:10:23] stand because I made her look like a excuse my language, but I made her look like a fucking idiot. He's the Vanguard. He's the Vanguard. You know, and several, well, I don't know if it was

[00:10:36] several times, but I would ask for a yes or no question on purpose because she would try to go into this long explanation and I'd say, Miss Proffman, this is a yes or no question.

[00:10:47] And then I'd ask her the question again. And I would look at the judge and I would say your honor. This is a yes or no question. Would you have Miss Proffman answer the question? Yes or no?

[00:10:58] And he'd look at her and go, Miss Proffman, this is a yes or no question. And then she would try because I'd painted her into the corner with this question and then she'd go off on

[00:11:07] a tangent and I'd say, Miss Proffman, this is a yes or no question. And the judge is rolling his eyes at her because she just was an idiot on the stand. And I had like, you know, the

[00:11:21] patents had been refused in 2003 and I had printed out when they refused the patents, they had all 16 days of the curriculum at the patent office. And I'd printed out all of it. And so I went through certain parts of the curriculum with her and you like rules and

[00:11:41] rituals, I went through like, well, why do people have to take off their shoes when they go in the room? You know, I don't remember everything, but I asked her such stupid questions and she

[00:11:50] like didn't know how to answer them. Like, and I said, how many, how many modules are there in the 16 day curriculum? And she didn't even know that she's next year's expert. She didn't

[00:12:00] even know that. And she's like, oh, a day. And I said, well, how do you know that? And she's like, well, my attorney told me shit up like, so when did your attorney become an expert in Nexium's

[00:12:10] curriculum? You know, she's supposed to be Nexium's expert witness. And so like, you know, and then they had gotten a hold of some emails that I had sent Joe O'Hara. And one of the emails

[00:12:21] I sent was, do you know anybody in the health department because Nexium runs an illegal cafe? Wouldn't it be fun during an intensive to have somebody from the health department show up?

[00:12:32] You know, because we're just looking at ways to just fuck with Nexium. Yes. You know, and he never responded to the email, but they were trying to use that email as a way that I was, we were

[00:12:41] harming Nexium because they were trying to prove conspiracy. And I said, so Ms. Brofman, how does this prove harm? And she said, well, the email is harm. And I'm like, excuse me?

[00:12:53] As she said, well, the email is harm. I said, so how did this email harm Nexium? Well, the email is harm. And like, excuse me? How did they, how did this email that they never bought

[00:13:04] until they dove into our emails? How did the email harm Nexium? Well, the email is harm. And I'm like, okay, you're saying the email is harm. I said, you never saw this email until 10 days ago. Correct. Your attorney saw the email 10 days ago. How did the email harm

[00:13:25] Nexium? Well, the email is harm. And I'm like, but how you never saw the email, your attorney got the email 10 days ago. Oh my God. I said, did the health department ever show up to Nexium?

[00:13:40] Well, the email is harm. I said, you're not answering the question. The CSR no question is wrong. Oh my God, you're the best lawyer ever. I said, did the health department ever show up to

[00:13:50] Nexium? I want the transcript. Susan, I have to tell you something. When we got out, I don't know how many months later, but we knew that there was an event at apropos that we weren't at obviously.

[00:14:01] And again, we were also just trying to follow what the advice that was given to us, which was like give them as many fires as possible to put out. And one of this,

[00:14:10] we called the half moon. It might have been the health department, but basically saying it was the health department. So we actually up near apropos, it was half moon. We made a phone call and we

[00:14:20] said there's an event and it's over capacity for sure. And they wouldn't go check it out unless we gave them our names. Right. And I was like, you want me to give my name to a person who's,

[00:14:31] oh, maybe you've been bought off to turn a blind eye to all the laws being broken. You said your name was Allison Mack. Oh, I totally should have. I wasn't thinking super clearly at the time. I had a question. Melissa McElroy, was she at the trial? Susan,

[00:14:47] what was her experience if she was there? Who? You. They're asking. Oh yeah, was I at Kistro? Yes. Oh gosh, it was so surreal. I was at the last part of the trial and when I first got

[00:15:02] there, I got there a little late so they threw me in the overflow room and it was so funny. I was sitting in front of all the oilists who had shunned me. And so when they went to break,

[00:15:17] I stood up and I turned around and there was a whole row of people who had shunned me. And I said, oh, and some of them I didn't know and some of them I didn't. I said, oh, hi. And I reached

[00:15:30] out my hand and said, how are you doing? And they all just like dead pan to me. And I said, oh, I'm still shunned. And the only person who said anything to me was Angel. Oh, and I knew

[00:15:43] Angel really well because Angel worked in the admin office and she used to deposit my commission checks for me because I had him here because it would take so long to send him to me. So

[00:15:55] Angel talked to me all and I said, you should be careful because if you're talking to me, they're not going to talk to you. I thought she was out. She was supposed to be out. Yeah, well,

[00:16:05] but she was hanging out with them because it was so funny. And I just said, so you're not going to talk or you're really not going to talk to me. Wait, Susan, I have to tell you something.

[00:16:17] I have to tell you something really quickly and I want to hear more. A couple of years ago, I ran into some people who are still loyal in Vancouver. I'm not going to say their names,

[00:16:24] but she happens to be on the dossier report or one of those women who I used to coach and I thought we were good friends, but whatever. Anyway, a couple of years out,

[00:16:33] I ran into them it's New Year's Day and we walked by them like, hi, happy new year. And they look at me as if I might attack them or something and they don't turn the other way

[00:16:42] in their eyes down and I'm like, Shunning is not humanitarian, by the way. And then they'd be like, you can't do that. You can't do that. They hate you. You're giving them every written... I'm like, I couldn't help myself. So I would have probably

[00:16:55] done the same thing at the trial. Hi guys. Oh, you're still shouting me? Okay. Number one sign that you're going to call it when you shun people who leave just so you know. Okay, go on. Tell us more about the trial. Everybody.

[00:17:07] Well, and then later that afternoon I was able to get into the main courtroom because apparently a lot of the women who were in DOS didn't like being in the main courtroom. And so

[00:17:18] it made room for me to get into the main courtroom. But it was really interesting because I was there and they were doing the closing arguments, which was good because it kind

[00:17:28] of caught me up on everything that was going on. And so they did closing arguments and the DOJ finished up in the case lawyer got him and he did this like metaphor that made like no sense.

[00:17:41] And I'm thinking like, I thought, what the hell is he talking about? He did this like my dad, baseball and all this kind of stuff. That has nothing to do with the case. Like,

[00:17:52] what is he doing? And then they closed for the day and then the next day was a bunch of us are like, oh, you know, there were a bunch of people were like, wow, I'm not going in because the jury,

[00:18:03] I said, are you kidding? The jury's not going to take that long to come back with it there. I think there was a couple of days there. And then the next day, people are like,

[00:18:10] I'm not going in because the jury is going to deliberate for a long time. Like I'm going in, I'm saving my seat early. So I went into the courthouse, saved my seat and a bunch of

[00:18:21] us were just yacking. And then the judge came in and said that they were going to break for lunch. And so you remember the restaurant? You were, I remember you were there because you ate there

[00:18:31] several times. It's famous club sandwich. Yeah. So I went over and ate lunch and I told the people from the vow where I was going. I went over there with a couple of people

[00:18:42] and they came one of the film people from the vow came over and said, jury's back. And so of course we went running across and I had already saved my seat and I had a seat

[00:18:52] picked out to where I could see Keith. And that's where I sat every day where I could see him because I wanted to see him. And I was so nervous, but I was pretty sure they were going

[00:19:02] to come back and people were like, afraid that they were going to find him not guilty. And I was like, are you guys kidding? Did you not pay attention to the closing arguments?

[00:19:11] Because they're going to find him guilty on everything because the DOJ did such a great job at talking about every charge and where they could find it in the transcript, the trial transcript

[00:19:23] and where they could find the testimony and every trial transcript. And then they did a brief on every charge, you know, what was said about that and everything. And they were so good about

[00:19:36] pinpointing it. And that was the only thing about the trial that I heard, you know, I wasn't there during the six weeks. I just went during the closing arguments and then Keith's lawyer didn't even

[00:19:47] talk about any of it because there was no defense. You know, and I'm thinking like, how could a jury not find him guilty? Because the DOJ did such a good job at covering every single charge what the testimony was, what the evidence was and stuff. And then Keith's

[00:20:03] attorney didn't even, there was no defense because there wasn't anybody that was willing to testify for them. And that's the other thing that kind of, you know, chaps my ass is that, you know, now the loyalists are coming back saying, well, I would have testified, but

[00:20:19] that's a lie. They were threatening me, which is a lie because if you're willing to testify in the opposition, the DOJ is threatening you. That's called witness tampering. It's battering. Yeah. Yeah. And you can't tamper with witnesses no matter what side you're on. If

[00:20:37] you're on the defense or if you're on the prosecution, if you're tampering with witnesses, that's against the law. And so when they come back and say, well, I would have testified, it's like, no, you wouldn't have. No, you wouldn't have. Keith wouldn't have let you.

[00:20:50] Just same reason that Keith didn't defend himself. Right. Well, yeah, he's not going to get up on the stand because he's not credible. They would have got it for perjury. Wow. I mean, he perjured himself when he released a statement to the public saying he had nothing

[00:21:04] to do with it. Right. Yeah, they'd show right away. Oh, but wait, wait, that was an ethical lie, Nip. That's when I started feeling really, really comfortable. When the New York Times article

[00:21:12] came out, I felt like they've got bigger problems than Sarah and I at this point. And then when I started seeing how they handled everything, they were just revealing themselves exactly

[00:21:25] who they are with their lies and everything. It was kind of like, get your popcorn. I felt safe up to that point. Until that point, I was kind of like a sniper with my head on a swivel. Well,

[00:21:35] and when Nancy said she didn't know about DOS, I've talked to three women who have told me they went to Nancy and told her about DOS before Keith ever left to go to Mexico.

[00:21:50] Susan, I was on the phone with someone two weeks ago. They were remain nameless. I don't do Twitter worse. I kind of stay off that, but I did post this one thing when Moira Pinsa

[00:21:58] said something. This person who we had seen, so I put Sarah and Troy on a train to Toronto because there's two things. I wanted to get them out of there and Sarah's grandfather was sick

[00:22:10] and we use that as leverage to not be a part of the weekend and then I went in and Nancy calls it my tantrum. I called other things. Mike Drup. It was me exhausting my human resources complaint to human resources in person. Resource manager.

[00:22:26] Yeah. And so this person happened to be in Toronto before they were headed to Albany for the coach training. And so we had spoken to him. We told him everything that was going on. They get there.

[00:22:38] Nancy takes him out. Wait, hold on. You missed a key point. I met him in Toronto. He's happened to be there for business on the way to the summit that we were just escaping.

[00:22:46] I showed him my brand. He was like the second person to see it after Nibb. He was like WTF and then went to Albany business as usual to try to like gather information for us and got promoted.

[00:22:57] Sorry. Nancy, yeah, kind of intercepts him. He says this is paraphrasing his words. Takes him to another room and preemptively tells him that this is group DOS. It doesn't have a thing to do with her. It's key thing. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So she knew about

[00:23:10] it at this point. June 1st, June 2nd after I've gone in and complained, right? And our friend played dumb, right? And was like, okay. And kind of like was got the narrative they were

[00:23:21] getting and got ours. And so to suggest that Nancy didn't know what was going on. Well, it also says you're a terrible leader of a company if you don't know that this is going on in your company,

[00:23:31] right? Or you're lying. You know what's going on and you're lying. Right? So either scenario that you're trying to flex right now isn't positive for you and what you're doing. So I just, you know, at this point, it doesn't really matter. But I know she knew.

[00:23:46] Right. And by the way, Sarah, before I drop out of my memory, I love the calls that you've made to Nancy. Yeah. And then she plays it on the bell. As though it's a vindication of not talking to...

[00:24:02] I'm so surprised you saved that. What do you do with a call like that? Yeah. You call them back immediately. You call them back. Yeah. Your star recruiter slash golden child slash bonus daughter slash center owner says she's hurt and upset. You call...

[00:24:22] It's actually good that she didn't because God knows what kind of headfuckery she would have done to me and if I was strong enough to resist it at that point, I'm sure I was, but you never know.

[00:24:31] I was actually going to go to that coach summit and try to do business as usual also. And my mom and a couple of people were like, don't do it because you're going to get... If you express...

[00:24:39] It was just better for me to not go at all and not get hooked back in. I was getting my wife and kid out of there. Yeah. I'm glad I didn't go. I'm glad I didn't go.

[00:24:48] We just have time for a few more questions and God knows we could talk forever and ever. A couple quick things. This might not be too quick, but what do you think happened? If you

[00:24:57] want to skip this, you can. What do you think happened to Kristen Snyder and that was from Amina Henry? Yeah. Gosh, that is like the unsolved mystery mystery. And there's so many things out there that has been investigated so many times. I don't know. I don't know either.

[00:25:16] Whether she committed suicide... I think if she would have committed suicide in that bay, her body would have shown up. Right. That's my... And I knew that a long time ago when that happened because I started researching that when I was still in and I started asking

[00:25:31] questions and so she did not... If she committed suicide, she didn't do it at Resurrection Bay. We fill our listeners in on Kristen Snyder. Right. It was a woman who... She disappeared before I joined, so I don't really know. I don't know anything about it, but she

[00:25:47] apparently took a training and then she went to Albany and there's rumors that maybe she was pregnant with his baby, but she was gay. And I don't really know much else except it's an unsolved mystery currently in Alaska, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's rumors

[00:26:00] she's still alive and that people in that were in next to him at the time that investigated knows she's still alive and that proof, but you can say you have proof all day long,

[00:26:09] but unless you're willing to bring that proof forward then to me it doesn't mean anything. Right. And this might be a much longer conversation, but Evie and there was some similar questions say, can you address how the community treated you as a queer person?

[00:26:20] I feel like the tech was not addressing queer relationships, especially when talking about the binary of women and men. I know we've talked about this that you mentioned once that Keith said it was gayness was what being gay was a... It was active defiance.

[00:26:32] Active defiance, right? So it's just a disintegration that you could EM, right? What the fuck? Well, Susan, thank God as you didn't stay for Janessa and SOP because that just got worse. Well, when I was... I was there when Janessa first started. I remember taking a

[00:26:47] weekend workshop here and I went to Nancy and I said, what is this caveman? It was just like, what is this? I said, this goes back to caveman shit. Like what are you doing?

[00:26:59] And I hated it. And then I went to one up in Vancouver, the one that Alison Mack came to. I just saw them recruit her. She was on a plane going back to Albany that following Monday.

[00:27:11] I mean, it was just like, oh my God. And I wanted nothing to do with Janessa after that. Fair. You know? It was just like, oh, I hate this. And then I heard it just got worse and worse.

[00:27:21] Oh, it got worse and worse. And we're going to do a whole other episode because people in our community who are curious about it, like where did the LGBTQ spectrum fit into this spectrum?

[00:27:32] And I'm like, I don't know because that wasn't my experience, but there was a substantial, but even towards the end, there were quite a few gay women and men in the community. And I just felt like... I'd say proportionate to society.

[00:27:45] Yeah. Like my experience, like I remember, I won't say her name, but Redhead, Little, Chudgamalak, was like, this isn't relevant for me. Like this is not relevant for me as a gay woman. Like I don't want to be here. You know? That was sort of the thing.

[00:27:58] Yeah. It was interesting because when you talk about the redheaded woman, Nancy told me one time that Keith had converted her and I went, what? You know? It's what are you talking about? She said, yeah, her dad should be so proud because Keith had converted her.

[00:28:14] And I remember one time that she was having such a difficult time and she just kept breaking down and breaking down and breaking down. And it was during that time when Nancy told me that Keith

[00:28:25] had converted her. And I'm thinking like, what the hell are you talking about? And I don't know if that was just a ploy for me to take a look at my own sexuality and that maybe

[00:28:33] I should do conversion therapy with Keith. You know, kind of thinking, I'm thinking, like, what the fuck are you talking about conversion? It's so insulting because I would venture to say that someone who is gay has done more

[00:28:46] exploration than the average person, right? Well, let me tell you this. When you're a teenager in high school and you have known most of your life that you are attracted to the same sex, nobody wants to be that different. Nobody. I mean, nowadays it's more like, okay.

[00:29:08] But when you're born in 57 and you're growing up in the 60s and 70s, nobody wanted to be different like that. No, totally. I have a nephew who's gay. And my older brother said he was talking about it.

[00:29:21] Like he wasn't like talking about it. And my older brother is sensitive to it to a certain point. But he's like, it's a lifestyle that is going to be a little bit more difficult for him.

[00:29:31] Right. And far more so when you were younger than today, like you said, it's much more accepted now. To suggest that it's an act of defiance and you're going to go choose a harder life. It's so fucking insulting and stupid. Like, I don't know. I just,

[00:29:47] I'd laugh if it wasn't so like insulting. And ridiculous. You know what I mean? And ridiculous. It's absurd. Oh, right. You know what? That's the thing that I love the most of what we can do now is that we can laugh and we can question and we can

[00:30:00] disagree. We all don't have to think the same thing. I will add a caveat to the answer to that question. I think Keith wisely stayed away from that though, for the most part. The most part. But I mean, because of his own obsession.

[00:30:12] Yeah. Publicly he didn't address that in classes, but there was this overt kind of thing or covert kind of thing that went through the organization. And so I don't know how they addressed it covertly. Yeah. No, except with me. You know, like you cannot kind of thing.

[00:30:30] Susan, is there anything else you want people to know or to think before we have to wrap up and we can have you back? Cause there's more questions we didn't get to. Although when I

[00:30:38] just skimmed them, we kind of talked about a lot of things that people wanted to know from you in terms of your experience. But is there anything else? I just think that the biggest thing is that for people out there that our recovery is a process.

[00:30:50] That's the biggest thing is that if you're still struggling with your recovery, that you give yourself a break, that it's a long journey. I've been out since 2009. I still have my highs and lows in regards to that. And it's a time thing. And there's a lot of

[00:31:05] resources out there. I mean, there's a lot of great books, podcasts help, but sometimes you just need to break from it. Like I'm not opposed to watching Hallmark movies. And that's where our lives collide, Susan Jones. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes you just need a break and watch

[00:31:20] them, you know, watch them with like the good old predictable heart Hallmark. What do you mean it's predictable? Is it like a new plot every time? But it's good, you know. Sometimes you need a chill factor or that kind of thing.

[00:31:34] Here's the real question. As Keith likes to say when he switches context, here's the real question. Does the girl who went to the big town come back to our small town, reconnect with her old flame? Do they get together? Do they find love? Do they find love?

[00:31:53] It keeps me on the edge of my seat every goddamn time I watch one of those things. Yeah. But you know, it's like so sweet. It's loving. It's just so satisfying. She doesn't get fucked over by the psychopath. That would be a good plot.

[00:32:11] There's always that psychopathic position of power set in a sex cult. Rolling around town, abusing everyone. And nobody seems to question why she liked him in the first place. Oh my God. Brilliant pitch idea, Nippy.

[00:32:25] A woman returns to her small town has been taken over by a narcissistic, sociopathic, sex addict to douchebag who's got a harem and she's got to decide if she's going to be with him or the new guy. Get his brand. And his avatar baby.

[00:32:41] It'll be tough to make that suspenseful, but... She's like, I really want to have his baby with six other women and raise them together as spiritual wives. But I also have to go back to town and be the CEO of that business

[00:32:51] that was running. So it's a hard thing. Oh, Susan, we love you so much. Please come back. Thank you for being such a badass. And again, in case anyone hasn't heard our

[00:33:01] original episode on a little bit culty, we are so sorry for not believing you when you left and for phoning you and finding out why you left and for thinking that you were destructive

[00:33:12] and bad. So apologies. And a more personal note. Thank you for being there for us. Absolutely. There's a lot of people that were waiting for us with open arms and were more

[00:33:24] than generous. And it's a lot of the reason that we've turned this into what we've turned in so we can be that to others. So you're a catalyst for that. You're an example of that. And thank you for that. Yes. And thanks for all the work you're doing.