Polygamy, Incest & Reality TV: Amanda Rae Breaks the Silence (Part 2)

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[00:00:29] Welcome back, everybody, to Part 2 with Amanda Rae. If you missed Part 1, you will not understand this part. So go back and make sure that you know what we're talking about. Enjoy! Welcome back, everyone. This is Part 2 with Amanda Rae discussing The Order. Okay, so last week we talked about a lot of history, a lot of terminology, a lot of things you saw that just didn't add up. What was the final thing that occurred? The final, I mean, we talk about this all the time in the podcast. It's not just one thing. Things add up, add up. The shelf eventually breaks.

[00:00:59] What was the final thing on the shelf that caused your world to crumble and make you want to leave forever? I think, yeah, like you're saying there's so many things like the sexism, the, oh, why can't I have multiple husbands? But you can have multiple wives. Like, I, my critical thinking was starting to work. And I think because I was allowed two years of public school, that also made me like look around and be like, oh, so there's a whole world out here. And then my mom being honest with me.

[00:01:22] But I think what was the final straw was really thinking about having kids in the order, having daughters in the order. And I was thinking, am I really going to repeat the cycle of what my mom has done? Where my mom, well, at least my mom was honest, but she was living a miserable life, crying every day. Most days. Am I really going to have kids and subject them to that?

[00:01:45] And so even though I don't have kids now, in a weird way, my hypothetical kids saved me from the order. And so I left at 17. I wanted kids so bad, though, because you're so brainwashed to. I wanted 10 kids when I was there because my mom had 10 kids and it sounded like a nice, modest sized family. Then I left and I wanted six. And now I'm like, I have so much deconstructing that I still have to do.

[00:02:12] I've been out 11 years and I still am like, I don't know that I would be the parent that I want to be if I had kids right now. Great self-aware. And he also has so much time. I was 36 and then 42 and I had my kids. Oh, wow. That actually makes me feel good. So much time. You don't need time. I know. I know that it's changed. It's good. Especially because like after you leave and you're. So I was in daycare and I was a nanny the first year of being out because I was so good with kids because I was around them all the time.

[00:02:40] And it made me realize that a lot of the things that we were raising was actually very abusive because I was also doing it. Like there's a one story that I feel so bad about. I was nannying this kid. He was two or three. So young and he wasn't finishing his food. And I was like, you're going to sit at the table until you finish that food. Basically force feeding this kid. I was like, you need to take one more bite. You need to take one more bite. He takes the bite and he throws up.

[00:03:04] And I start crying like, you know, like realizing this is this is from the order. And there were so many moments like that. This is from the order. This isn't who I am. This is the indoctrination. Who am I then? You know. But just so you know, people who want in the order make those mistakes, too. Yeah, I know. I think I pick myself apart so much because I'm like, I'm so big on trusting yourself now and like knowing, knowing who you are and trusting the process.

[00:03:33] But then it's still a big piece of it is like, what if I'm trusting that part of myself that's from the order? That's a really important piece for deconstruction. I have a question. Just kind of more of curiosity. It's somewhat tangential and somewhat not. But let's say there was a kid who showed really good skill in, say, chess or violin or baseball or something like that. Were those interests squashed?

[00:04:00] Was there any room for them to pursue maybe a talent they may have had? Let's say someone grew to like 6'6", 6'7", and they could shoot a basketball or something like that. Yeah, that's a good question. What would happen? I used to cry about this when I first left because I was like, I would see, I had an adopted family and she got to excel in areas that she was talented in. And we were just kind of shut down. It was anything, any skill that wasn't going to benefit the word of the Lord was not desirable. That's awful.

[00:04:27] Yeah, so we didn't, we were lucky enough that, so they did baseball, but it was like community baseball once a week. And then there was a few activities that we were allowed to explore, but within the group. But even like my dad, like he went into school for computer science. And my mom tells a story. I can't remember the last time she told it, but I remember as a kid being like, wow. It was taught as like an example. He got offered a job where he would basically be a millionaire is what my mom say.

[00:04:54] But he chose to give his works to the Lord. And he works for basically pennies for the work at the kingdom of God upon the earth. So everything you do is for the order. And so that's why a lot of women in the order, they want to be teachers because that's one of the only things they can be is a teacher. So no chess clubs for the Lord. Actually, I was going to, I thank you for bringing that up. Because when you said chess, I was like, oh, I have a point. My dad loves chess. It's like whatever the things the men really like, then they get to explore.

[00:05:23] So the baseball thing was actually a man's game. And I remember only going to watch my dad play. And then I think the women fought it and were like, hey, why are only men playing? So then they had, fine, we'll do a little girl league for you guys so you can shut up. And then chess, because a lot of the guys actually really like chess. So then they had a chess league in the order. But it's all order, you know, members. And this is something that's very humbling, okay? I was like the best guitar player in the order, self-taught.

[00:05:49] Come out here, and I'm like, shit, a guitar compared to what's out here. But it's because there's no like knowledge on it. No infrastructure. Yeah. So I was the greatest one. But I was like such a shitty guitar player. That's the saddest part. You don't really get to go spread your wings in anything else. Right. And that's also like when you leave, you're like, then who the hell am I? I am just a product of the cult.

[00:06:14] A lot of the series that I watched is like people are scared because they don't know what their skill sets can be. But I can listen to them talking and hear that they're competent people. So for me, hearing it, it's like I just wanted to tell them, look, you're going to be fine. You're only 17, 18. Right. You're not that far behind. You just – it's your belief and your indoctrination that needs to be addressed because all of you are clearly competent and smart. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:41] A lot of them are too – like they've grown up so fast to – like a lot of – even when I watch myself on Escape and Play me 18, I'm like, I don't know who that bitch is. Like she was crazy. Like I was doing so much because I think coming out of that survival mode, like you're working as a kid. I don't think we covered this on the first episode, but from like – I can't even remember how young I was, but I remember the elementary school bus dropping me off from school to work. So like these talents, you don't have time for your talents, right?

[00:07:10] And they would say in the memory gems, so we would have meditations at school and they would say after you would bow your head and meditate for five minutes and they would tell you what to meditate for. I remember specifically they said one time when David O. Kingston was in prison for raping his niece – he was one of his wives that was his niece – he went to prison for that. And while we were in school, they told us to meditate for Brother David to get out of prison. So after you're done meditating – and they do this meditation thing every single day – and then you have what they call memory gems.

[00:07:39] Especially when you're at home, they do the memory gems. And it's – it is my firm resolve and fixed purpose to give my all to the Lord, my time, my talents, and all that I'm ever expected to be. So it's – you're reciting this every single day. Your time and your talents need to be beneficial for the order. So you are brainwashed from day one that you are basically owned by this cult, right? And your pursuits are bad. Your personal pursuits are bad. Yeah. It's selfish and wicked, right?

[00:08:06] Because you need to be benefiting the kingdom of God upon the earth. But this is what's crazy, and I think a lot of members think this, but they don't say it because they'll get shamed for it. When I was in the order, I was like, so we're living our entire life to build up the kingdom of God upon the earth, and they keep telling us that this is the closest thing to heaven. I fucking hate you guys. Why would I want to go in eternal life with you guys? And so I also got to a point where it's like, if this is heaven on earth, what's hell like?

[00:08:34] Because I already don't like it here. And to have to picture eternal life, living polygamy, and all the shit that you guys are saying, I would rather not. And they believe in the three kingdoms of heaven, which is also an LDS teaching, so celestial, telestial, terrestrial. I remember thinking, well, can't I just get into one of the lower ones? Because I don't want to be with you bitches up there. Okay, so how did you actually leave? Did you have a grand dramatic escape, like an escaping polygamy?

[00:09:02] Yeah, and maybe I'll give like snippets of it because it's kind of a long story. Sure. And I do have the full story on my YouTube. I want to make sure to link that in our show notes. Or you can type in Amanda Ray, my story. But it's long, but I'll give you the bullet points. I was 17. I had already run away so many times. I told the story of where I opened my Bible, and I was like, I knew I was going to leave. I had a friend call me up and say, hey, I want to leave the order. I'm trying to get my money out, and they're not giving it to me. And he had like $40,000 in that bank.

[00:09:32] And I had worked at that bank. It was Fidelity right off Main Street. It's still that same location, Fidelity Funding. So we get together, and we're devising a plan. He's like, well, you work there. You can get in there. And I remember it being his idea, but he probably remembers it differently. I remember him saying, you work there. You can take my phone, take pictures of the underage kids working in the back because they're so afraid of getting prosecuted for child labor laws, which is so funny, like, you're so afraid, yet you still do it. So you must not be that afraid.

[00:10:01] But he's like, you go take pictures of them, and then we'll hold that as leverage until they give me my money. And I was like, I was 17 and in a cult. So I was like, yeah, this is a perfect plan. No flaws. Let's blackmail the bank. Literally. That's literally what it was. But I don't even know how we would have done that. Like, just, you know, we have these pictures. I don't know where we would have given the pictures to the police. Yeah. So I go in. There's a door that you can't get in unless you're buzzed back. So I'm like, hey, can you buzz me back? They knew me because I worked there, so they buzzed me back. It was super easy.

[00:10:31] Take the pictures. I guess I wasn't as discreet as I thought I was being. And I think I could have gotten away if I didn't really. In that moment, I realized, it's probably the last time I'm going to see these people. I'm probably never going to see them again. And one of my best friends was working in the office right next to me. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to go talk to her. I'm not going to say goodbye, but it's going to be like my goodbye to her. I go over there and I'm talking with her. And I just remember her reaction. Like she, her eyes widened like someone was behind me. Like she was in shock.

[00:10:59] And I just turn around and it's kind of like a blur. I remember his arms going all over me, the phone flying, him pushing me with his hip out the door. And there were witnesses. I feel like there was at least 10 witnesses. He pushes me with his hip out the door. He has the phone. He's like, I can't remember if he was like, I'll give this phone to your dad. I'm not giving it back to you. He shoves me out the door, closes it. It locks. I'm like shaking. So much adrenaline run over across the street to where my friend was.

[00:11:24] And my, my ex-husband now, but at the time I was like trying to escape with him. He was there too. I run across the street and the, my friend starts bawling. He's like, you're bleeding. You're bleeding. I'm like, what do you mean? And I touched my neck and I was bleeding from my throat. And so in that kerfuffle, he must've clawed my throat or like, I just, I don't remember how it happened, but I was bleeding from the neck and I had like bruises and handprints all over me.

[00:11:50] So I call the police and we talked about this in the first episode, the case where the baby died and someone else went to prison for it. I call the police and the police officer that was on that case happened to be going back to the station. He was actually a good guy. And when I told him, I was like, please believe me. I thought he wasn't going to believe me. And he was like, no, I know the Kingstons. I know that the kind of people that they are. I know I was on that case with the baby where they were trying to lie and say the baby fell out of a high chair.

[00:12:19] And it was obvious from the autopsy that the baby was murdered. I believe you. I want you to get justice. Like he was trying to break into the place. Like they were holding the door shut, not letting him in. And he was taking pictures for me. He was trying to get evidence. He was on my side. He was like, take this as your silver lining and get out. And I was so grateful for that experience. 30 minutes later, though, another cop shows up and he pulls me in his car, which I don't know the laws on this. It feels weird, though. Can you pull a 17 year old from her group into the car and isolate her?

[00:12:48] From the get go, even as a kid in a cult, I was like, this feels weird. Get in his car. He's like, hey, so are you trying to press charges on Jason? The guy who attacked me was my uncle, the leader's brother. I was like, oh, well, I don't. I mean, he attacked me and he's like, well, you don't want to do that because you're going to be doing so much time in court. You're going to have to show up like every week to claim your case.

[00:13:16] And the worst he's going to get is a slap on the wrist. Like he's trying to talk me out of pressing charges on my uncle. And I'm a kid. Again, a kid in a cult doesn't know how the world works. I'm like, is he right? I don't know. But also, meanwhile, my uncle's sitting there like lying, saying he didn't lay his hands on me overnight to everyone in the order saying that I clawed myself in the throat. They have evidence that he never attacked me. And these are people that knew me. I was like, it's hard. You think I'm just like. What did your friend say?

[00:13:45] The friend that witnessed it, she was texting me and she was like, I can't believe he just did that. But then all of a sudden I could tell there was a shift like they talked to her because all of a sudden she's like, I got to go. Like I we probably shouldn't be talking about what about the cop who was on your side? He took pictures. He wanted me to press charges. He was like, you should you should do what you got to do. But these Kingston's are bad news and you got to take your take this as a silver line and get out. And he was trying to get more evidence, but they wouldn't let him in. He Jason, the guy who attacked me, would not come out till his lawyer was present.

[00:14:15] His lawyer was another numbered man. And it was like everybody was on his side. No one was on mine. And this is this is actually how my husband left because well, ex-husband, he was still like so like he was like, yeah, the order has a lot of bad things, but the leader's never done anything. Like the leader's such a good guy. You know what I mean? And this is why I think that also a lot of people would rather believe that I clawed myself in the throat than believe that the leadership is flawed. Because at first I was taking it so personal. Like I can't believe that my own friends think that I would do something so crazy.

[00:14:44] But really it was they cannot take pull the wool off the you know what I mean? Because they their whole world will crumble if the leadership is like that. And they're dependent. Right. And I witnessed it happen with the ex-husband. Well, the at the time it was like boyfriend. He was like, we got to call Paul right now and tell him what his brother just did. We got to call Brother Paul, get him on the phone. And he's like trying to find Brother Paul's number. And I was like, what are you doing? He's not going to be on our side. He's like, no, I'll I'll I'll tell him what happened.

[00:15:13] I'm like, go ahead. Go ahead. And he calls, calls and calls and calls. Like I said, they were he was on his brother's side. One hundred percent. In fact, my own dad was on the brother's side. My own dad was like, you need to apologize to Jason. So I was like, yeah, I was like, I still don't think I'm still surprised no one snapped at this point. And my mom, I am grateful for her because I did call her and I was like, hey, before all the lies come in, I just want to let you know exactly what happened.

[00:15:40] Story I told you. And she was like, Amanda, why do you always got to go out with a bang? And I was like, well, at least she like somewhat validated me. But she still was like kind of like tricked me into going to a meeting with my dad. And my dad freaked out and was like, you need to apologize. I'm like, I'm not apologizing. I don't want to be in the order. I've been telling you I don't want to be in the order. But he was the type that was like, well, I'd rather die than leave the order. And I hope you feel the same way. And that's how the order members are.

[00:16:08] Like, it's better to die than leave because you're losing your salvation. So it was like the day I left and it was a sudden that cop was right. Silver lining. Right. Because at that point I had been trying so many times. And at that point it was like the door is so permanently shut now because they were acting like I needed to go apologize. And I was never going to do that. And now they were all afraid of me because I called the police. So I didn't realize either.

[00:16:36] I showed up at an order standard restaurant supplies and everyone was freaking out. Like, Amanda's going to call the cops. So it was like they were afraid of the 17 year old girl. So I all of a sudden I had all this power that I didn't even realize I had, which is crazy that the members don't. I wish so bad that the women in the order knew how much power they really had and how powerless the leadership actually is. Yeah. It's a metaphor for government. Right. People. So true. Power if they're organized. Yep. And if the men probably for all cults, right?

[00:17:05] If the members really knew how much power they had. But that's why you see this same thing in a lot of cults where they put the members down. They don't educate them. They put them under their shoe so that they can control them. But yeah, that was definitely one of the craziest days of my life. It was July 25th of 2013. And that was the day I left. And then escape and polygamy happens like right after that. So they just contacted you? Yeah.

[00:17:35] I think my story was, so in the order, my story was Amanda's a crazy bitch. But on the outside, it was like heroic. But to me, I was still like processing it. And just to go by for a second, after that happened, did you just pack your bags? And like, how did you actually leave? So I had been running away multiple times at this point. So I had already had my stuff at the guy's house. Like I was on my way out. But this like cemented the door shut, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:03] So I guess my story went around and to the point where Jessica, Andrea, Chanel, the producers were asking around and people were saying my name. And they were like, you need to get Amanda's story. And I'm just a little kid. I remember like- How old were you? I think when they contacted me, I had barely turned 18. Wow. Because when you watch Escape and Polygamy, my wedding is on there. So I said, I left July 25th of 2013. My wedding was May 14th of 2014. So I was like filming on the show, getting married.

[00:18:31] And I remember thinking I was getting kind of old. Like I got to hurry and get married because that was still the mindset of the order. But when I watch it back now, I'm like, oh, I was such a baby. Like still and still believing. I'm proud of myself for doing a lot of therapy and deconstructing. But I think that I got in the way of my own growth because I was so headstrong of like, I cannot be controlled and no one can control me and I'm in control of my life.

[00:18:56] But I think when you believe that too much, you're actually more susceptible to being controlled. So I think it was like a battle of like up and down with therapy and trying to realize, oh my gosh, like this is way deeper than I thought. And I think that you, well, me, I can't speak for other people, but I do think I've seen it in other people's lives too. But I think I gaslit the hell out of myself to get out of there. Like I gaslit myself into thinking that my family wouldn't disown me.

[00:19:26] I gaslit myself into thinking it wasn't going to be as bad as a plus, but it was bad. Like my 18th, cause I was 17 when I left technically, cause my birthday was in August, left July 25th. My 18th birthday rolls around and my mom shows up and she, she had the, had me believing that my siblings would be there. She shows up, no one's with her and she gives me my gift and I open it and it's a photo album of all of my siblings. And she tells me, you can't see them unless you come back to the order.

[00:19:54] So like, that's my 18th birthday present. And I remember crying in my closet. Like it all is like, I think that that's a big reason why a lot of people go back, especially women. They will let women go back cause they need that womb. Right. So a lot of the times the woman will leave and feel so isolated and then they'll be like, well, you can come back and have your family if you want to just join again. So, and that's the only tempting part for me was my family and they, they will really milk that. They tried. Oh, for sure.

[00:20:25] But I never went back. I did, I did try to go back around the family, but never go back to the, the church. Do you have relationships? Um, so since the show, actually, uh, my brother Esco left on the show. My sister Rachel left on the show of my mom's 10 kids. Five are out now, which is awesome. We got half and half. That's great. So, but it is hard. Like we just had a younger brother leave who he's 10 years younger than me.

[00:20:51] I was really close with him in the group, but leaving and having 11 years of not being allowed to like be a sister anymore. I'm not allowed to come home for Christmas. So he moved out and it's like trying to rebuild that trust. But then also when they've been in the order for so long and the ones that you're supposed to trust the most are the ones taking advantage of you the most. It's, it's like, they're assuming that I'm going to do that too. So it's a lot of just reaffirming, like I'm not them.

[00:21:17] But then on top of that, what they say about me is so disgusting that they also don't trust me and they have a, even my brother, I think he believes that he doesn't believe it, but I think there is some subconscious stuff about me that he still needs to work through. That's a narrative. Undo his program. Right. So there's that stuff. I think a lot of people, when they were asking like, how's, how's your relationship with your brother? Cause I'm so public. Like, I'm like, it's not this happy go lucky story. I wish it was. I wish it was. And now I have my brother and we're happily ever after.

[00:21:47] No, like we're still working on a relationship that they robbed us from. So it's going to take time. Oh yeah. I was so curious about escaping polygamy. We didn't have time to watch all the episodes, but the ones that we did watch, we were like, wow, it's amazing that the producers were able to get, you know, access to, to people in such a vulnerable and traumatized state. Did you feel like, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but like, did the,

[00:22:15] did they take care of the survivors as well? Like make sure that they, yes. No. Okay. I will say this. I'm grateful for the show. I think I would have done it over and over again. If it, if it meant that we could have helped as many people as we did, I wish that they would have had a free therapy or trained producers. There was going to be a specific producer who did come from a cult, but it was when she started recording with us, it was too close to home for her.

[00:22:44] She started to have like breakdowns. So I think that the show could have been better if they went that route, but sadly she couldn't go through with it. So then other producers came in who were more like, boom, boom, boom. Let's get the storyline that A&E wants. Yeah. And I get it. Like they had a job to do, but these were very, very traumatized beings. Teenagers, some of them. And there were a specific producer.

[00:23:10] I'm not going to say names, but if I even tell any of this, people who are on the show are going to know exactly who I'm talking about. I'm not the only one who thinks this. There was a specific producer who would take advantage of the fact that we were so easily, you know, manipulated. Valuable. Probably. And they would use that. You had to say his name. I don't want to go ahead. I'm not going to go ahead. Just because. And saying in general, these guys get protected too much. Or women. I know. And I'm saying this story because I want other. I'm not telling you to.

[00:23:40] I'm just saying. I don't hold back. I know. I think eventually it's coming up. But when I talk to people in person, the name is definitely said. Okay. But. You know what? Just watching it. I forget which episode, but there's a scene where somebody you're talking to. Maybe it was Rachel or Priscilla. I don't remember. And you're trying to like make sure she's ready to come out and she hasn't been extracted yet. And she starts to cry. And then one of your one of your relatives. Older sister. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Are we bombarding you? And I'm thinking like, I'm not a trained therapist, but I would like I want to be there

[00:24:10] and be like, I feel like I could have helped. Yeah. You know, like cut the cameras, you guys. It's a real moment. And there were so many times where the producers did not. They were thinking of the show way before us. Yeah. And they'd be like, OK, thanks for filming. Bye. And they could go back to their life. And we're over here like I'm staring at the ceiling for like four hours afterwards because they just interviewed me for five fucking hours about all of my trauma. No, this is going to be in the book, too. If you're going to do a show like that, you need to have it in your contract that therapy

[00:24:39] is provided or a trauma informed person. Because they are exploiting you no matter how nice they are. Oh, yeah. Even with the contracts we signed, they were like, now sign on the dotted line. It was like, this is the order all over again. The contract said we get 20 percent of what you make if you become famous, basically anything off of your name for the next four years after the show airs. What? Yeah. I'll have to show you this because I showed it to my lawyer friend later. I was like, why did we sign this? Because it was Andrea. Please send us that because there's an episode. So wait a second.

[00:25:08] Did you get paid to be on the show? Chum chain. Yeah, yeah. It was like $1,000 per episode. And you know they're making so much more on that. Still. So $1,000 per episode and then 20 percent of what you make moving on. If I gain any fame. So that's why I was afraid to start my YouTube channel. And this is what pisses me off. It's like I felt silenced by you guys because you guys were acting like the order all over again. But also on top of that. Wait. So is this Lifetime? Lifetime or A&E? A&E. A&E. Yeah. Oh, A&E's got a bone.

[00:25:37] I got a bone to pick with A&E now. This is why there was never another season. So they asked us. They were like, the reviews are really good. Are you guys willing to do another season? Me, the main girls was Jessica, Andrea, Chanel, me and Colleen. We all were like, well, we're going to discuss first and then we'll have a meeting with you guys. So we all discussed. We're like, we all have to be on the same page on what we want. And we basically were like sisterhood, right? Before these producers, we all were kind of traumatized from how they treated us. And not only was it that they had to sign contracts, they didn't know how to deal with us.

[00:26:07] They blatantly lied to us. There's a specific episode that they just flat out lied to us about the storyline so that we would drop everything to go help this person escape who wasn't escaping. Like it was just a flat out lie to get us there. And there was confrontation that happened on the scene too. Like I remember, I hope Andrea is okay with me telling this. I salute her for this. I'm like, thank you, Andrea, that you did this. She was like rolling the window up on the producer as the producer was talking. She's like, I cannot deal with your shit right now because we were lied to. Anyways.

[00:26:36] So on top of this, they were just trying to create a scene. They were trying to create a drama. Yeah, they just got so into it. Had the feel. Yeah. Their narrative mattered so much more than the truth it started to feel like. And I was like, and that's also why a lot of people didn't want to film with them too because they started to be known as like they would want us to say it in a different way or they would want us to sell a narrative that was their narrative, if that makes sense. Yeah. But getting you to give 20% of all future fame is ridiculous.

[00:27:04] So not all future, only for four years. Still, I would fight that. I would fight that. And if there's any lawyers listening to this who want to get involved, anybody from A&E who wants to contact us. How many years has it been? Yeah, it's been a while. Because yeah, in four years? Yeah. Oh, okay. So you're good now. Yeah. I think it was two or four years. I just remember when I started my YouTube channel, I was like, well, hopefully I don't make any money for the next year or so. And then I was good after that. Yeah. It takes a while to make money on YouTube anyway. It takes four years.

[00:27:34] So yeah, we had our meeting and we were like, okay, so we want to be treated better. We're not signing those contracts that say basically we own you. And Jessica was like, maybe we even asked for residuals. Like maybe we should be profiting off of all of this. Because there was even an episode where Jessica was being so re-traumatized that she was throwing up, physically throwing up. But so it's like, we all deserve to be getting treated better than they're treating us for the extent that they're pushing us to. Because they were literally to a point where like, let's get 10 escapes a year.

[00:28:04] Come on, what do you got? And it's like, well, first the motherfucking all, it's hard for one person to escape. But then to go on TV and tell your whole story, you know? So anyways, we all had our stories straight where we're like, okay, this is what we want. When we go into this meeting with the producers, we're just going to tell them exactly like lay it out. So we have the meeting with them. They're like, we're so excited to work with you guys again. And then we tell them what we want. And they're like, oh, the demeanor changes. We'll discuss and see if we can do that for you. And then never heard from again.

[00:28:34] And then now there's this offshoot called, is it called Escape? No, no, no. It's called Secrets of Polygamy. The same producers, even Matt, the security guy's on there. But they asked me to be a part. I was like, I don't want to be a part of anything that you guys have your name on ever again. Good for you. Good for you. And shame on that. So to exploit people who have been exploited their whole lives is just horrific. I'm going to go ahead with the spinoff. I know that if I was sitting down with these producers today, they'd be like, well, we were trying to expose and da-da-da.

[00:29:04] And yes, in the long run, it did do good. But you could have done it in a way that wasn't traumatizing all of us and that was actually healthy. Right. But I think they just saw dollar signs. And also, I'll give them some grace. Maybe they really didn't understand the extent of it all. Maybe. But I think that you have to have dollar signs in your eyes to shut off the empathy.

[00:29:28] Because seeing these people, looking back now, I don't know how anyone can work so closely with these people fresh from the cult and act the way that you guys did. Yeah, we had people approach us and when they left, I go, that guy doesn't give a shit about us. Like, it was pretty obvious. Oh, yeah. Then ultimately, the people we ended up doing our documentary with, because one person had taken our trainings, was producing it, understood what she was looking at. Ender, ender. Yeah. It's so important. You can tell by the questions they ask. Yeah.

[00:29:58] Like, these producers should have been like, I don't know, doing Housewives of Salt Lake City. Yeah. Not escaping polygamy. Yeah. Like, no. No. Having trauma-informed people on set. Having therapy, free therapy on standby. And like, access to getting back on your, if you're going to get people out of a cult, you got to help them. Right. That should be part of it. Like, here's a target. Show them out. Yeah. Here's a place to live. Here's some income. Here's some, like, that's what I want to do.

[00:30:28] And I think it's because we fought for it. But they did give, I think, like six months of rent to some of the people that escaped on the show. And they gave, they did give money to the ones that escaped. Good. And tried to help in that aspect. So, I give them props for at least that. Get some props and some shame. Okay. Okay. So, how's your life been? How's your healing journey? And what have you been doing to get reconnected with yourself and find your sense of autonomy and your life back? It's been so hard.

[00:30:58] Yeah. It's been good. But it's definitely like, like when we were talking about before, how it's like, you come from the order and you want to find your sense of self, but you don't ever have that. I've never had a sense of self because I was never, it was never promoted. So, then I get out and I'm trying to fight my demons, basically. But the majority of my life when I left, I was still, I feel like I was still mentally in. I got married. I had only ever been with that man that I had married. I wanted kids.

[00:31:26] It was really just the cult, but without the polygamy. But then I started to realize like my demons were following me, right? Like I don't want to, I want to be a better person for my kids. And I don't think that I'm even the person I want to be. I started to see how much I hated myself. There was a lot of self-hate because of where I came from. So, I started to get really deep into therapy, trying to find myself. And it made me, honestly, like I think that that's what helped me realize my marriage was not healthy.

[00:31:54] And to be fair, like I think that, I think if he was willing to admit that he also needed therapy and he was willing to grow, I don't think we would have stayed together. But we would have been amicable. We're not amicable at all. Like the divorce ended kind of messy. I filed for divorce. It was a seven-year marriage. He refused therapy. And I honestly feel like that marriage was really traumatic. Yeah. But after that, I just got even deeper into therapy.

[00:32:24] But I got the hell out of Utah. I think Utah was just a place where I could not heal. You know how you just, you have to. You can't heal in the same place as major. There you go. That's what I was looking for. Yes, exactly. And so. I just showed you that quote. Yes. Like you're welcome. No, no, no. We talk about it a lot though, actually. You can't evolve from a belief system within the belief system as well. I found that that transfers to so many different aspects of like, even with my mom.

[00:32:52] My mom was re-traumatizing me constantly because I was allowing that window. So I put a boundary up with her for like, I think it was like months where I just wouldn't even pick up any calls from her. And it healed the wound. I was able to, I'm able to have conversations with her and not get triggered and not get upset because I took that second to, cause I, cause it was like, I had a bandaid on the wound and every time I was going next to her, she was ripping the bandaid off.

[00:33:18] I had to get away, heal myself, work through that and then come back to the situation. And I think that is similar in so many different areas of my life. And I'm trying to use it with everyone in my life. Specifically too, I feel like me and Priscilla, Priscilla was on the show and she, uh, I helped her leave on escape and polygamy. We have a lot of trauma from her escape, from us both being in the order together, even though we're good, good friends.

[00:33:43] Now there's still times where I'm like, I think that, I think we have resentment right now that, that is resentment from when we were in a cult together. So a lot of people will leave and just, they want nothing to do with any of it. And that makes so much sense because it's, it's so heavy. There's, it's so deep into who you were. Right. And you're trying to find who you are now, but it's, I think finding that balance of, cause I think everyone leaves and then you go, you overcorrect.

[00:34:12] You go so far this way. And I think that the balance is to not hate where you came from. You can hate what the things that have happened there. Yes. But that is also a part of what you, so you can't hate you. You don't want to hate you. Right. Be careful. Don't hate you. But, um, like respect yourself for, for the things that you've gone through and understand that that's your story. You can never run from your story. But then that's what I'm still, uh, coming to terms with. Right.

[00:34:42] So I'm not close at all to being healed, working every day towards that. And I catch myself slipping up and I catch myself doing things like currently really noticing all the different forms of self-harm. Like, yes, I physically self-harmed in the order by like cutting. Right. But there's so many other forms that we do subconsciously not realizing because of our upbringing. So right now it's like the place that I'm in is I'm trying to be so aware of every action,

[00:35:11] every phrase, every sentence. Is this, am I loving myself right now? Or am I hating myself? Is this voice in my head, the voice that my mom was talking at me? Is this actually me? Do I want to claim these parts of myself? Because I think when you leave and maybe you went through this too, you have this, it's like a brick wall and this is your life. And you have to take all the bricks down and then rebuild it. And then you're like, oh, actually, I don't like this either. So you take it all down and then you rebuild it. And you're like, I hate this shit too.

[00:35:38] So it's like you're, you're constantly rebuilding who you are as a person until you like that person. Do you, do you agree or do you feel like? No, I'm with you. I was just wondering what particular, are you, are you doing a particular method of therapy or is your therapist cult informed? Yes. Oh, good. And that's, thank God for holding out help. Hopefully we can reference them somewhere. Do it now. They are the charity nonprofit that helped me to get into free therapy.

[00:36:04] They still offer me free therapy and they do, they're very informed of the order and of abuse of polygamy and all of that. But I also have done EMDR. Have you heard of that one? And the newest one I've done is where they, what is it called? They hook up your brain neural feedback. Yep. That one, I'm not so certain. I don't see the results as with EMDR. I go in and I cry and I hold the little vibrators in my hands and I'm like, it's working.

[00:36:30] But with EMDR or the neural feedback, I just get really tired afterwards. Yeah. I don't know enough about it to comment. Right. And that's why I'm saying like, I don't, I'm probably not the best one to say like if that works or not, but definitely EMDR has helped. And definitely just being able to have a therapist there on call. Like this one specifically was like, I'll, if you need to call me twice a week when I was going through a really bad breakup, I had to call her twice a week to just, I needed that validation. I needed someone to tell me I wasn't crazy.

[00:36:58] And sometimes going through trauma again on the outside re-triggers stuff from your, you know what I mean? So yeah. Do you do therapy too? Yeah. I haven't recently because things have been good, but I have a couple people on speed dial. Yeah. That's where I'm at. And I always get scared. I'm like, I say things are doing good, but should I be in therapy? Because usually when things are doing good, that's when I start to spiral. Yeah. I have like a regular psychologist, couple cult experts that we have had help with.

[00:37:26] And then we have our own couples counselor slash therapist. So you guys have it together? Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Yeah. I like that. There was lots of unraveling to do. Oh, I'm sure. Thanks to NXIVM doctrine. But well, you'll see that when you read the book. Yeah. I'm excited to dive into all of this. Yeah. Here's a question actually before we talk about where people can find you. You've mentioned in other interviews that people listen and Kingston members are kind of keeping an eye on you. If they're listening to this, what do you want them to know? What would you say to them?

[00:37:56] I guess it depends on which one because if it's Jason, fuck you. He tried, yeah, by the way, tried to get an expunged from his record that he attacked me two years later. Yeah. So much. I do not like that guy. I do not like Paul and his brothers. But for anyone else, if you're seeking for the truth, keep seeking. There's a reason that there's a question in you. Trust yourself. It's so hard to trust yourself when you don't fully know yourself. But there's a reason why it feels wrong. And question everything until it makes sense.

[00:38:24] Because if you just follow blindly, it's going to be an issue for the rest of your life. Those questions are going to keep coming up. So keep questioning it until it makes sense to you. And can they reach out to you if they want to talk to you directly? Yeah. Yeah. I have had members reach out to my Instagram anonymously. They're really scared of me because they're scared to get caught talking to me. Because that's a big, bad thing. I don't know. So yeah, I do have my Instagram. But if you're wanting to leave, holding out help is the best. They have a phone number to call on that.

[00:38:51] And then if you're wanting to just watch people from the order talk about their experiences, go to my YouTube channel as well. And that way, because I know that it's scary to do the actual reaching out. So sometimes just watching and listening and getting that validation can help too. Where can we send them this episode? This episode? I know. Yeah. We should just put it. Send it to them. I know. Literally. Do you message me? And then you guys can send it. If they have any emails of people in the order, we're happy to add them to our newsletter list. Oh, perfect. I didn't know you guys had that.

[00:39:18] Yes, we do have a newsletter where you just pop it, send it over to them. Well, I had specifically had a girl reach out and wanted to meet up with me and talk about, but she wouldn't tell me who she was. And I was like, can I at least know who you are? Because I'm not going to walk into like a dark alleyway. Yeah. And it's Paul Kingston. So I met up with her and she was like so afraid. Like we went to a public place so that we both felt safe. But she was every person that was walking by, she was like looking so scared that she's going to get caught talking. Wow.

[00:39:49] But she was married, living polygamy, wanted out. And I think there's so many of them, but they're so afraid because she was even saying like, I'm afraid they're going to take my kids away from me. I mean, if you have kids, it seems to me it's a totally different conversation. And speaking of what advice would you tell people who are considering leaving other than holding out help, which is that just for the order or is that for all? No, they help FLDS. They help. There's a lot of ex-polygamy that they help and they have housing too. Because a lot of women, that's one of their biggest things like, is there anywhere for my kids?

[00:40:18] Where can I go? So they will help you to figure that out. But then on top of kind of piggybacking what we were just talking about with her being afraid of losing her kids, what I want members to know is the order really milks that they have control over your kids like that, that the government's going to be on their side, not yours. But in Utah specifically, I've seen women leave and they get a lot, way more rights to the kids. So, and if you're a plural wife, he's not even on the birth certificate. So there you go.

[00:40:46] He, he, he's lifts right out of the situation. So there's, there's a lot of fear mongering where the girls think that they're really going to lose their kids, but, but it's just fear mongering. Don't believe it. With people who've heard this episode or fans of escaping polygamy, what's like the one thing that you wish people would know about either your journey or the clan in general? Like what's the misconception? This one's just on my mind because someone did it at the airport on the way here.

[00:41:12] At so many times has there been a moment where I talk about my story a little bit and then it's, it's always a guy. They'll say, where do I sign up to go live polygamy? And I'm like, oh, it's just, it pisses me off so much because I get it. Like comedy shouldn't be, comedy shouldn't be filtered, blah, blah, blah. But when someone tells you their traumatic life story to, to go say, how can I join? You're, you sound like a pedophile. And what I usually say is like, oh, you look like someone who'd fuck their sister.

[00:41:42] You'd be great. That's a great response. Oh, for all you sister fuckers, you can sign up right here. Yeah. Go right on ahead. Fuck. Yeah. But it's, I'm alarmed at how many men still say that. And they, they publicly say it on my TikToks too. I'm like, do you see how you sound right now? Like a literal pedophile and you're, you're have your profile picture and everything right there. But maybe that's just a sign to show like how, how far behind still America is. Cause it's usually American men. I don't know.

[00:42:12] The sexism runs deeper than the cult. And maybe that's also why the order was able to survive so long in America. Why does everyone know about it? And how come it still exists? Right. That's the question. That's the thing. Like if you know about it, you just get 10, 15 cops go in and go, this is done. This is over. And there was a kind of raid that happened, but it was for incest. I think it's hard. Cause it's like, what's provable? What can we actually prove and tie to him? Cause he doesn't have his name tied to things.

[00:42:38] So I get that aspect, but I do think that there's a lot of things that are getting slid under the rug because the more Mormon is also lumped in with that. And Mormons are in control of a lot of Utah. So. We're going to have to get the FBI involved. I know. Let's do it. Can you tag them in this? Well, we have some friends. Thanks for our experience. So we can pass it along and say, get involved. We can't promise anything, but I've fed them some stories before for sure. Yeah. More eyes on them, the better. Yep.

[00:43:07] Where can people find you if they want to follow along on your journey? YouTube, Amanda Ray, R-A-E. Especially if you're looking for more like X order content. There's a lot of that over there. I have a same thing, TikTok, Instagram. I'm on all the socials. Amazing. Awesome. We've loved hearing from you. I'm so glad that you go out here to do this in person. It's always so much better. Way better in person. I know. Sorry. So many people just run for the hills, you know, when they get out of something like this. Yeah.

[00:43:36] It's so impressive what you've been through and that you're still talking about it. Yeah. And I'm going to interrupt too. When I met you on the panel, I was like, oh my God, like I was trying so hard not to cry hearing your story too. And it feels so validating to be able to be in a room where we all get it and can speak our truth and be validated. So thank you for giving me the space to share. I don't think you're as far from healing as you think. That's nice to hear. Yeah. Definitely. So thank you.

[00:44:06] Just from hearing and watching in the last three days, you're doing great. Thank you. That means a lot. You're welcome. One of our ex-guests told us that there's, you know, a light at the end of the tunnel, right, with healing. And then there might be another tunnel. Oh, yeah. And then there's a little bit more light. So just know, I always thought of it as waves, like a wave crashing down on me. I get back up. That's life. It's life too. Yeah. I think it's an ongoing journey and the tunnels will be shorter. Yeah.

[00:44:36] That's what I'm noticing more and more lately. It's like this does feel like it's going to pass. Whereas in the past, it's like this is taking forever. Well, keep us posted on your journey and let us know how we can support. And I hope to be friends. Yes, definitely. In this advocacy with you. 100%. Thank you so much. Thank you both. Thank you. Thanks, Amanda. Thank you so much for being here, Amanda. Your story is incredible. And we hope it inspires others who are also trapped in toxic spirituality.

[00:45:03] For any listeners who are thinking of leaving a high control environment or recovering from one, please visit the show's resource page. No matter what you're going through, there is help out there. And in case you want to learn more about Amanda and Extreme LDS, aka The Order, we'll drop her YouTube link in the show notes. Seriously, check it out. In the meantime, take care of yourselves and see you next time. Bye. Bye.