Rift and Redemption: Cait West’s Escape from Christian Patriarchy

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[00:00:54] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:56] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

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[00:01:52] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:11] Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everyone.

[00:02:13] Our guest today grew up in a household that embraced Christian patriarchy.

[00:02:17] And if you're not familiar, that means her father controlled every aspect of her life until she escaped at age 25.

[00:02:22] Extreme versions of this movement can go way past typical conservative Christianity.

[00:02:27] Its followers believe God put women on earth only to serve their fathers and husbands.

[00:02:31] They think men should wield absolute control of their households.

[00:02:34] This includes everything from what women wear and who they interact with all the way to who they marry.

[00:02:39] Christian patriarchy believes women have no use for a formal education or a job outside of the home.

[00:02:44] They pressure women to have as many babies as possible to beef up God's army.

[00:02:49] On a larger scale, Christian patriarchy believes women have no place in politics or business.

[00:02:54] And of course, that men are the only ones who should vote.

[00:02:56] Our guest, Kate West, spoke with us about her experience with Christian patriarchy.

[00:03:01] As a kid, she was homeschooled and molded to become an obedient wife and mother.

[00:03:05] When she got older, she wasn't allowed to get a job other than teaching piano lessons in her family's living room.

[00:03:10] Kate's father also set up two courtships for her.

[00:03:13] Courtship basically means arranged marriage.

[00:03:16] He tried to cancel both of these courtships without her input.

[00:03:19] But Kate married the second man against her father's wishes.

[00:03:22] At 25 years old, Kate escaped Christian patriarchy with no formal education, no real job experience, and very few skills for living on her own.

[00:03:30] She didn't even have a driver's license.

[00:03:32] Despite all that, she went on to become a successful writer, podcaster, and author.

[00:03:37] She wrote an excellent book called Rift, a memoir of breaking away from Christian patriarchy.

[00:03:42] She also co-hosts a podcast called Survivors Discuss, where people share stories like hers.

[00:03:47] Kate serves on the editorial board for Tears of Eden, a non-profit that provides services to survivors of spiritual abuse.

[00:03:54] We'd like to make it clear that this episode isn't about demonizing Christianity as a whole.

[00:03:58] We're trying to shine a light on a movement that uses extreme forms of control and abuse to dominate people, especially women.

[00:04:05] This offshoot is very culty.

[00:04:07] Fair warning, this movement has some really disturbing perspectives on rape culture and race, so trigger warnings there.

[00:04:13] We're also going to cover religious and sexual trauma.

[00:04:16] And one more caveat.

[00:04:18] Toward the end of our interview with Kate, she makes a reference to EMDR therapy.

[00:04:22] That stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.

[00:04:26] It's a psychotherapy technique that can help people heal from trauma.

[00:04:30] FYI.

[00:04:31] Kate is an example of overcoming and thriving after religious abuse.

[00:04:35] Her story is fascinating.

[00:04:36] So let's get to it.

[00:04:37] Here's our conversation with Kate West.

[00:04:52] Kate, welcome to A Little Bit Culty.

[00:04:54] Good morning.

[00:04:55] It's really good to talk to you today.

[00:04:57] Yeah, it's been so wonderful having...

[00:05:00] Well, you read your own Audible, right?

[00:05:01] You read your book?

[00:05:02] Yes, I did.

[00:05:03] I read the audio for my book.

[00:05:05] Good for you.

[00:05:06] We've been on our heads for at least 48 hours.

[00:05:08] Yeah, listening to you.

[00:05:08] But also at 1.6 speed, which I find works for my brain.

[00:05:13] I found you worked well at 1.5 to 1.75.

[00:05:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:05:19] We always speed it up, just because partly, you know, just waiting.

[00:05:23] Now she's at 1.

[00:05:24] Now she's at 1.

[00:05:24] You seem a little slower than I'm used to.

[00:05:27] I'll just start talking a little faster.

[00:05:28] Talk a little faster.

[00:05:29] Okay, okay.

[00:05:31] Well, some people are probably listening to our podcast at 1.5, 1.75.

[00:05:35] So I think you're safe.

[00:05:36] Yeah.

[00:05:37] I do that sometimes when I listen to podcasts.

[00:05:40] Yeah.

[00:05:40] And we met in person at the Tears of Eden slash Story Jam last year, last fall in...

[00:05:45] St. Louis.

[00:05:46] What's it called?

[00:05:46] St. Louis.

[00:05:47] It's like Louisville.

[00:05:48] That's not it.

[00:05:48] I knew there was a Louis in there.

[00:05:50] How have you been since then?

[00:05:51] How are you?

[00:05:51] And what's life been like now that you're free of the Christian patriarchy?

[00:05:55] Yeah.

[00:05:57] It's been going well.

[00:05:58] I mean, like that fall was one of the first times I've spoken public on a stage telling part of my story.

[00:06:04] And then my book came out this April.

[00:06:08] And I've been doing a lot of events since then.

[00:06:10] So that was like my first big event before the book.

[00:06:14] So yeah, it's been going good.

[00:06:15] It's been a whirlwind.

[00:06:16] I'm sure.

[00:06:17] And Nippy doesn't know this.

[00:06:18] So I'll bring him up to speed.

[00:06:19] I actually don't recall, because that whole weekend is a whirlwind for me as well.

[00:06:23] I don't recall what it was that you said or did on the stage.

[00:06:26] But I just remember thinking, oh, we need to have her on the podcast.

[00:06:30] That's what I remember.

[00:06:31] Did you read an excerpt from your book?

[00:06:33] I did.

[00:06:34] I kind of put a few pieces from the book together to make it kind of like a mini story.

[00:06:39] And I read the chapter that rephrases Proverbs 31, which is a passage that's often used to tell women what to do.

[00:06:48] And I kind of wrote my own version of that.

[00:06:50] And that was really empowering for me to say that out loud.

[00:06:53] I'm sure.

[00:06:55] Yeah.

[00:06:55] Get your voice out there.

[00:06:56] And also on a stage in front of such a warm audience must have been really a beautiful experience.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] And people were laughing because, you know, I find humor in telling these stories sometimes.

[00:07:08] But other audiences...

[00:07:10] It's necessary.

[00:07:10] Yeah.

[00:07:10] But some audiences don't understand the humor.

[00:07:13] And so there's no laughing.

[00:07:14] But this audience totally got it.

[00:07:16] So that was really nice.

[00:07:18] Amazing.

[00:07:19] Now for our audience who doesn't know who you are, what's your elevator pitch when you meet people in this space?

[00:07:24] Or that, you know, they know you've written a book.

[00:07:26] How do you describe your resume in this field?

[00:07:30] Well, yeah.

[00:07:31] So I grew up in the Christian patriarchy movement, which taught that because God is the ultimate masculine patriarch, that men are supposed to be patriarchs in all aspects of society.

[00:07:45] And women are supposed to be their helpers because they're created second in the creation order.

[00:07:51] And so for me being a girl, I grew up believing that I had to become a wife and mother and didn't have any other options for career or education.

[00:08:00] And that was just the way it was.

[00:08:02] There was no other options.

[00:08:03] And so that's a really brief recap of my background.

[00:08:08] I didn't leave that movement until I was 25.

[00:08:12] And it was just this, my world totally opened when I figured out how to leave and learn how to be an adult outside of that.

[00:08:21] It was amazing.

[00:08:22] It was scary.

[00:08:23] I struggled with mental health issues, but I did get to go to college and start building a career that I really enjoy.

[00:08:31] And through all of that, I've written a book about my experience.

[00:08:36] And that in itself has been really empowering to tell my story.

[00:08:40] Yeah, it's called Rift, A Memoir of Breaking Away from Christian Patriarchy.

[00:08:45] And I'm really proud of the book and how it's been able to open some conversations up with people who've been through similar things and who have people in their lives who may have followed that radicalization path that my family did.

[00:08:58] And what do you do about that?

[00:09:00] How do you care about other people?

[00:09:01] For our audience, some people are familiar with the Duggar family.

[00:09:05] But what exactly is at the core belief of the Christian patriarchy?

[00:09:09] Yeah, it's, you know, I think quiverful is a big term in that world where your whole goal as a woman is to have as many children as possible and to bring God's kingdom on earth.

[00:09:24] So there's this aspect of taking dominion.

[00:09:27] And there's this aspect of masculine power over women.

[00:09:32] But it's often framed as a benefit to women because they're fulfilling their true purpose according to God.

[00:09:39] And so a lot of it's based on gender roles, but also a history of white supremacy and historical patriarchy.

[00:09:47] It's just a different flavor of it with the American Christian world.

[00:09:52] So we spoke to Kat Spearing about her experience as a stay-at-home daughter.

[00:09:58] And I'm sure, you know, there were some similarities there.

[00:10:02] Because I know you're also friends with her and collaborate with her and she's a colleague.

[00:10:06] Tell us a little bit about your life.

[00:10:08] Like what, you know, looking back now, what were some of the things that were problematic that you didn't understand then?

[00:10:14] Yeah, so writing the book helped me trace those moments of like what I call radicalization of my family.

[00:10:22] Because we were what I would consider pretty mainstream conservative Christians when I was born.

[00:10:27] And I did go to a Christian private school for a few months in kindergarten before my father decided he wanted to try homeschooling.

[00:10:36] And it was this idea that homeschooling is the best way to teach kids how to follow God.

[00:10:44] And so it was a very religious purpose for homeschooling.

[00:10:48] But because of that, I was the first kid in my family.

[00:10:50] I have two older siblings.

[00:10:51] I was the first kid to be pulled out of school and homeschooled.

[00:10:54] And it was very isolating.

[00:10:56] So I didn't have a lot of experience with peers my own age from the age of five.

[00:11:00] And so I was homeschooled all the way to high school graduation.

[00:11:05] And it was very restrictive and isolating.

[00:11:09] And I didn't have a lot of outside experience.

[00:11:13] And so me growing up in that world, I trusted everything I was told, right?

[00:11:18] Because your parents are supposed to care about you.

[00:11:22] And, you know, you're born trusting that they'll take care of you and know what's best.

[00:11:26] And also I was told this was what God wanted.

[00:11:29] And so there's this extra layer of divine blessing on our lifestyle.

[00:11:34] And so, you know, when I turned 18, I didn't understand that I had a right to leave.

[00:11:40] I didn't understand that I was an adult legally.

[00:11:44] And my father told me, you're going to be a child until you get married.

[00:11:47] And that's partly why I stayed for so long because I didn't understand how to exist outside of this family.

[00:11:55] And you never got to have a lunchbox.

[00:11:57] Yes.

[00:11:59] Which I remember they like, I could totally just like, I think all kids have, you know, there's things that they want from other kids.

[00:12:07] They see that they have, but like, I feel the pain of that.

[00:12:09] That's so isolating and so debilitating.

[00:12:12] Do you think your dad was like, I don't know, it's hard to know what other people are doing and what their intentions are.

[00:12:18] But obviously he thought this would be what's best for the family and whatever his new sort of trajectory.

[00:12:26] Do you think that there was any inclination or like when people started the homeschool movement in this way that it was like, we must isolate them from the outside world?

[00:12:34] Or how cognizant were they that they were doing that?

[00:12:36] How mission oriented is this and how explicit is it?

[00:12:39] Hmm.

[00:12:41] That's such an interesting question because it is difficult to know other people's intentions.

[00:12:45] And I think my parents have very different personalities.

[00:12:48] My dad's very authoritarian and controlling.

[00:12:51] And so I think homeschooling and keeping my mom as a stay-at-home mom without giving her any other options was his way of controlling the family.

[00:12:59] And my mom homeschooling me was a way of being a buffer between us kids and my dad and trying to make it work within this world.

[00:13:11] And then things like homeschooling conventions and curriculum and conferences, those things enforced those ideas and taught that isolation.

[00:13:21] Well, they didn't use the word isolation, but keeping us set apart from the world was really important to protecting kids.

[00:13:29] And we had this magazine called Patriarch Magazine that taught fathers how to do this.

[00:13:34] And so it was very explicit from the leaders of the movement.

[00:13:38] And I'm not sure every person, every parent involved thought that way, but it was very convincing to hear it from the leaders and to just, if you follow these rules, you're going to have a blessed family and your kids are going to grow up and stay Christians.

[00:13:53] And so, you know, there's that fear-based mentality of if we don't do this, they might be lost.

[00:14:01] You know, your kids might follow the world or go to hell.

[00:14:04] And so there's that aspect of it.

[00:14:06] I think I've seen a lot of different people have different motivations for joining this kind of movement.

[00:14:12] Would you say the consistency of it is that they're all leveraging Bible and Scripture to justify their abuse?

[00:14:19] And instead of standing up to your parents, like most kids do at some point, you're standing up to your parents and God.

[00:14:24] Right.

[00:14:25] Yeah, it's very much a spiritual abuse tactic of using God and Scripture to weaponize against children.

[00:14:34] And that's what makes me so sad about it all.

[00:14:37] But it's also very much a cherry-picked version of the Bible.

[00:14:41] It's only certain things that they like to use.

[00:14:44] Your father was a strict believer in stay-at-home daughter.

[00:14:47] Can you tell us what that is exactly?

[00:14:50] So when I was around, I would say 12, actually when I was around 10, Vision Forum started,

[00:14:56] which is this organization that promoted Christian patriarchy and these strict gender roles.

[00:15:01] And they had a catalog of products for kids and also books for parents that they published.

[00:15:08] And then they hosted conferences.

[00:15:10] And this was in San Antonio, Texas.

[00:15:12] But it was widespread through the homeschooling world.

[00:15:16] And so Christian patriarchy spread a lot through homeschooling.

[00:15:20] And so the stay-at-home daughter idea was really glorified through Vision Forum.

[00:15:26] And they taught this idea that because girls are going to be wives and mothers,

[00:15:31] they should stay at home until that point and learn to be a helper to their father.

[00:15:37] So kind of like an apprentice wife to your dad until you get married.

[00:15:42] And so girls like me were expected to stay home until we got married.

[00:15:47] And that's why I was there until I was 25.

[00:15:49] I was supposed to be a helper to my dad and submit to him and let him make all the big decisions in my life.

[00:15:56] And that was a widespread idea.

[00:15:58] It's still ongoing.

[00:15:59] There are people who still live like this, but they don't often use that terminology.

[00:16:04] And I just like to point that out because it's difficult to recognize stay-at-home daughters.

[00:16:10] Because, you know, some people decide to stay home with their parents after high school.

[00:16:15] But it's a difference when you're being coerced to do that.

[00:16:19] And for me, I would never have said I'm forced to do this.

[00:16:22] I would have always said it was a choice.

[00:16:24] That was because I was trained to say that.

[00:16:27] And so I know of stay-at-home daughters now who are trying to leave.

[00:16:30] And you look at, like you said, the Duggar family,

[00:16:32] the oldest girls have all been stay-at-home daughters

[00:16:36] because they haven't left home until they got married.

[00:16:38] So it is a fairly common thing in this world.

[00:16:41] And it's still ongoing.

[00:16:42] It just uses different terms.

[00:16:44] Right.

[00:16:44] They switch the terms once people start to get wind of what they're doing.

[00:16:48] You see it everywhere.

[00:16:49] We just recently did an interview and found out that the guy who wrote

[00:16:53] I Kissed Dating Goodbye has since recanted.

[00:16:56] Is it still pretty popular, though?

[00:16:58] Like purity culture?

[00:16:59] Is that also part of the stay-at-home daughter movement?

[00:17:02] Yes.

[00:17:03] Very much based on purity culture.

[00:17:04] And it takes it to an extra level of not just physical purity,

[00:17:09] but emotional purity,

[00:17:11] where you have to keep your emotions from being tainted by anything that might be viewed as sinful.

[00:17:19] So I talk in my book about this courtship I had and how I got in trouble for feeling love for somebody that I wasn't betrothed to yet.

[00:17:28] And so I had been going through this courtship thinking I might get married to him,

[00:17:33] but I was being rebuked by my father because I was too much in love with him too soon.

[00:17:40] And so the idea was to keep your heart clean and pure before marriage.

[00:17:46] And that was a really difficult thing to do as just a human being.

[00:17:50] It's very dehumanizing.

[00:17:51] It's like you're trying to be a robot and just follow the rules.

[00:17:55] It's confusing too.

[00:17:56] Yeah, especially being a young woman and not knowing, you know,

[00:18:00] how to deal with these things and being told that you deserve hell because you love somebody.

[00:18:05] It was very confusing.

[00:18:06] There's a lot of things in your book that I found upsetting as a, as a woman and just a person,

[00:18:12] a person and a human and a woman, but specifically around, I guess, I don't know how else to call it,

[00:18:19] but like how ultimately this, there's no place for women to say no to a man.

[00:18:25] And how does that support rape culture in this mindset?

[00:18:29] Yeah.

[00:18:30] So it's interesting because part of the reason they told us girls that we couldn't go to college

[00:18:36] was because it would be likely that we would be sexually assaulted on a college campus without

[00:18:42] the protection of our fathers.

[00:18:44] But at the same time, I never learned anything about consent or bodily autonomy or even what

[00:18:51] sexual assault was because they didn't teach us about sex very much at all.

[00:18:55] And you were told, I remember very clearly being taught that when I got married, I had to be available 24-7 to my husband

[00:19:03] so that he wouldn't fall away or go somewhere else.

[00:19:09] And that I was that, that going to be that person to keep him, him pure, right?

[00:19:15] In the side of a marriage.

[00:19:16] And so women are like taught to be the breaks, you know, before marriage and then the only access for a man after marriage.

[00:19:24] And then you blame yourself if something bad happens to you because it's the woman's fault always.

[00:19:31] And then when you're married, a concept like marital rape doesn't even exist because you're not supposed to say no.

[00:19:38] I would imagine you feel like this is always coming.

[00:19:41] Like I'm always going to be getting in trouble or I'm always going to be right in and out of marriage no matter where you go.

[00:19:48] Because they're all trained that way.

[00:19:50] Yeah.

[00:19:51] And there's just like no way to decide what your future looks like.

[00:19:55] It was just like praying to God, like, can I make sure I get married to a nice person who's not going to hurt me?

[00:20:02] Hmm.

[00:20:03] Because even if they hurt you, you can't leave the marriage, right?

[00:20:06] Because divorce would be sinful.

[00:20:09] And so you're just hoping that the person you get married to happens to treat you nicely because it's his prerogative how to treat you.

[00:20:19] Hey, Calti listeners.

[00:20:20] As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together.

[00:20:24] And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us.

[00:20:28] That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self-Publishing Agency or TSPA.

[00:20:35] Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out,

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[00:20:53] we highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner.

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[00:21:09] Go to theselfpublishingagency.com.

[00:21:12] That's theselfpublishingagency.com to start your very own publishing journey today.

[00:21:19] Enjoy.

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[00:23:40] Now let's get back to a little bit culti, shall we?

[00:23:43] When you're talking about lifetime vows and marriage, I obviously know that people say, like, till death do us part and people promise these things.

[00:23:52] But I never really made the connection between marriage vows and then also the vow that we went through with the vow, you know, the vows of the lifetime obedience to our masters and all that.

[00:24:04] Because I, having, you know, come from parents who divorced when I was two, I know that you can break the vow, right?

[00:24:09] Like, I know that that's not really, there is a way out, right?

[00:24:13] But I hadn't considered that for some people, especially raised in this movement, there is no way out.

[00:24:18] Right.

[00:24:18] Like, and how horrifically scary that is.

[00:24:20] Also, mine was earned, not coerced.

[00:24:23] What?

[00:24:24] My vows with you were earned, not coerced.

[00:24:26] Yeah, that's right.

[00:24:26] Yes.

[00:24:27] Because of the distinct difference.

[00:24:28] Yes.

[00:24:28] Yeah.

[00:24:29] At least.

[00:24:30] Yeah.

[00:24:30] I mean, I, but like, I feel obviously we have, I, even though I would like to stay committed to Nippy and I'm hoping we stay married, but I also know that if things went sour, we could very easily get a divorce.

[00:24:40] Right.

[00:24:41] But I hadn't really considered that from that perspective.

[00:24:44] And I, what's one of the things I really love about your book.

[00:24:47] No, you're in prison.

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:48] Like you really bring the reader through that.

[00:24:50] In prison.

[00:24:51] Visceral feeling.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:52] And even though obviously our experiences are very different, the way that you describe your mental health and depression, even though you didn't have words for it, and OCD, even though you didn't have words for it, I think a lot of people will relate to.

[00:25:05] For sure.

[00:25:06] Who are indifferent.

[00:25:07] The depression part.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:07] Yeah, for me.

[00:25:08] And especially for me also, the OCD.

[00:25:10] Can you talk a little bit about how the religious trauma and the spiritual abuse affected your mental health?

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:16] And I think, you know, like the imprisonment thing, it's interesting that you use that term because there's what's so tricky and insidious about this is that you're told, I'm not keeping you captive.

[00:25:28] I'm not forcing you.

[00:25:30] But also if you leave.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:32] But if you leave, then I can't talk to you anymore.

[00:25:34] Right.

[00:25:34] Right.

[00:25:34] So that language, you know, that was used against me so much of like, I'm not tying you down.

[00:25:40] So anyways, but I think that all contributed to my mental health problems, which at the time, it started when I was very young and I just internalized it and thought it was my fault.

[00:25:50] It was because I wasn't a good enough Christian or following the rules well enough.

[00:25:55] I thought it was all my fault.

[00:25:56] You were devoted enough.

[00:25:58] Right.

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:58] I felt confused about what belief was and other people talked about it as this transformative experience, but it was just this religion was all I knew.

[00:26:08] I didn't have anything to contrast it to.

[00:26:10] So I didn't have like this life altering story of conversion.

[00:26:14] And I've struggled with like, am I really saved?

[00:26:17] And I think that's where the OCD kicked in was this obsession about whether or not I was going to hell or not as a child.

[00:26:26] And, you know, you're told to be terrified of this.

[00:26:30] And the only way is their way of the gospel.

[00:26:34] But there's no assurance of whether you're actually saved unless you actually die and see where you end up.

[00:26:41] And so I was constantly paranoid that I might die.

[00:26:45] Like I was 12 years old and afraid to go in the car because I was like, what if we get in a car crash and I'm not ready to die yet?

[00:26:52] And so that obsession started pretty young and it followed with the compulsion side of OCD where I was praying constantly, obsessing over reading my Bible.

[00:27:05] When I finally joined the church, I was obsessed about making sure I took communion in the right way because we were taught if you did it with an unworthy heart that you might get really sick from taking communion.

[00:27:19] And so all of those things added to my mental health issues.

[00:27:24] And at the same time, there was nowhere to go because I was told psychologists were demonic.

[00:27:30] You know, so it was always my fault for feeling this way.

[00:27:34] And I didn't know that there was help out there, particularly because I was homeschooled and didn't have access to that kind of health care.

[00:27:42] So the Christian patriarchy, Scientology and NXIVM overlap in that they all think that therapy and psychologists are bad, wrong or demons.

[00:27:52] That's so interesting.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] And I think like, you know, partly is that like therapy can be really empowering and help you figure out who you are and let you stand up to wrongdoing.

[00:28:02] I think that's probably why they don't want you to do it.

[00:28:06] And therapy teaches you how to have boundaries.

[00:28:08] Right.

[00:28:09] Yes.

[00:28:09] And think critically, you know.

[00:28:12] And do self-care.

[00:28:13] All the things you're not allowed to do in aforementioned calls.

[00:28:17] The other thing I was saying to you this morning, I was like, we've had a handful of cases where people have been in something and haven't been using the internet.

[00:28:25] And then they sneak off and use the internet.

[00:28:27] And that's the catalyst for them leaving.

[00:28:29] And I'm like, remember we were talking about that?

[00:28:30] It's just like, it's like the third case of like, oh, there's someone out there who experienced what I experienced, who has language for it.

[00:28:36] There's a community of people out there.

[00:28:39] I know.

[00:28:40] I mean, like with all the harms of like technology and overuse of technology, like it was a life-saving thing for me to have the internet finally in my 20s.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:48] What was that like?

[00:28:49] Like it was just this like realization that I wasn't the only one to struggle with these kinds of thoughts and feelings and that maybe there was other ways to live instead of this one very specific way.

[00:29:02] It was like at first troubling because you're scared to think outside the box and you've been told not to do that.

[00:29:09] But then I feel like when you follow your intuition and you know something's wrong, it was really exciting to learn about other ways.

[00:29:17] Like maybe there's a way out of this.

[00:29:20] Did you find some of the people you're connected with now then?

[00:29:22] Or was that new?

[00:29:23] Like Tia Lovings and Kat Spearing?

[00:29:26] Or is it a different group?

[00:29:28] Yeah.

[00:29:29] Homeschoolers Anonymous was the group I found first.

[00:29:31] And so they were a Facebook group.

[00:29:34] And R.L. Stoller was one of the founding people of that.

[00:29:38] And they've just posted anonymous stories of homeschool alumni.

[00:29:42] And that's my first like access to other perspectives because I could relate so much to those stories of like educational neglect.

[00:29:51] It wasn't until much later that I met Kat Spearing because we had grown up so similarly.

[00:29:57] It's really funny that we never met when we were younger.

[00:29:59] But I didn't find her until I had joined Instagram after leaving and started talking about stay-at-home daughters.

[00:30:07] And she was like, oh, that was me too.

[00:30:09] And how come no one else is talking about this?

[00:30:12] And she had been focusing on talking about spiritual abuse.

[00:30:16] And I was talking about specifically stay-at-home daughters.

[00:30:19] And so that's where that friendship started was we're both talking about the same thing.

[00:30:24] And how can we keep talking about this and keep growing awareness?

[00:30:29] And we'll come back to what you're doing with her later with Tears of Eden.

[00:30:32] But let's just hear a little bit more about your journey.

[00:30:35] And obviously, we're giving the cliff notes because we want everyone to read Rift.

[00:30:40] Such a great book.

[00:30:41] Really enjoyed it.

[00:30:43] So you break away at 25, but it wasn't easy.

[00:30:47] You go online.

[00:30:48] How did you finally – do you want to tell us a little bit about meeting David?

[00:30:52] And some of the things that gave you the strength to actually leave?

[00:30:55] Sure, yeah.

[00:30:56] I'll back up just a little bit to my first courtship.

[00:30:59] Sure.

[00:31:00] Where I was being told that I shouldn't have emotions for this man.

[00:31:05] My dad broke off that relationship.

[00:31:08] And I was heartbroken.

[00:31:10] And there was this really pivotal moment for me.

[00:31:13] After he broke it off, my dad sat me down and tried to tell me to repent of my emotions.

[00:31:21] And I just couldn't do it.

[00:31:23] I couldn't, in honesty, feel sorry for loving someone else.

[00:31:28] And that was a moment for me of probably like one of the highest rebellious things I could have done.

[00:31:33] It was to say, I can't do that.

[00:31:36] And, you know, I was only 21 then.

[00:31:39] And I didn't leave until I was 25.

[00:31:40] But that was the beginning of me standing up for myself.

[00:31:45] And it took me a while to figure out how to actually leave and what it all meant.

[00:31:49] But I always look back to that moment as something inside me was saying, this isn't okay anymore.

[00:31:56] And what if my dad just says no to every relationship and I'm stuck here forever?

[00:32:02] So then a few years later, I had started teaching piano lessons because that was the one kind of job I was allowed to do.

[00:32:08] And I wanted to save some money because I knew the only way to get out was to have my own money.

[00:32:15] And I was lucky because my parents let me have my own bank account.

[00:32:20] And a lot of stay-at-home daughters, that's not the case.

[00:32:23] They have their parents on their bank account.

[00:32:26] So I was lucky that I had my own money and I could save that.

[00:32:29] And when I was thinking about leaving, like, maybe I'll go move in with my older brother who had also left the movement.

[00:32:36] And I thought that might be a way out.

[00:32:38] And right around that time is when I met David, who is, you know, spoiler alert, now my husband.

[00:32:45] But at the time, we were best friends and we wanted to have a relationship.

[00:32:51] My dad said yes to a courtship for one week and then he changed his mind.

[00:32:56] And that's when that old voice, like that inner voice of mine was like, this is what's going to happen again.

[00:33:02] He's going to stop every relationship I try to have.

[00:33:05] And so we had the secret relationship.

[00:33:09] We lived nearby and we would meet up and go for walks.

[00:33:12] And I got to know him as a person, which I hadn't been able to do in my previous courtship because it was so strict and everything was chaperoned.

[00:33:20] And my dad had moderated every conversation.

[00:33:23] And so this was a way for me to, like, get to know somebody and fall in love.

[00:33:27] And everything I did in that was breaking a rule of my dad's, like holding hands, for instance.

[00:33:34] I remember the first time I did that, it was like, this is a big rebellious move just to touch someone's hand.

[00:33:41] And it felt right to me.

[00:33:43] It felt good.

[00:33:43] And I started to really believe I could live differently and choose a different life for myself.

[00:33:50] And so through that, through saving money, we both decided to leave.

[00:33:55] We were living in Hawaii at the time.

[00:33:57] And we moved to Michigan, which is where we are now.

[00:34:02] And that whole process, I wanted to write about that in the book a lot because it wasn't like one moment where I woke up and had to leave.

[00:34:10] It was like this years-long process of me realizing what was happening was wrong, that this was abuse.

[00:34:18] Figuring out what abuse was because I finally got access to the internet.

[00:34:22] And then figuring out how to save resources and how to survive on my own took a long time.

[00:34:30] And so I left with, like, almost nothing.

[00:34:32] And it was scary, but also, like, the whole world was open.

[00:34:37] Like, I could do anything I wanted.

[00:34:39] And that was so exciting.

[00:34:40] What was the world like?

[00:34:42] What was it like to experience it from that lens of being so isolated and then so free?

[00:34:48] I mean, there's, I think there's, like, anything in life, there's a lot of bittersweetness to life.

[00:34:54] So there was this excitement about getting married to David and being in love.

[00:35:00] And, like, I get to go to college now and learning how to do that and wanting to study writing and follow the dreams that I had.

[00:35:09] There was that aspect of it.

[00:35:11] And then there was also the aspect of we're very poor and we have to, like, work a lot to survive.

[00:35:17] And I don't know how to get a job.

[00:35:18] And so trying to figure out how to make a resume and get a job and also struggling with mental health issues.

[00:35:26] And then on top of it, realizing there's patriarchy everywhere.

[00:35:30] It's not just in my family or in my church.

[00:35:34] Like, I moved to a town where, you know, there were a lot of religious people.

[00:35:40] And it was very patriarchal from my landlord to my workplace.

[00:35:45] Everything was very similar.

[00:35:48] Or just maybe not as extreme as my family.

[00:35:51] So it was a really big disappointment to realize that patriarchy is everywhere.

[00:35:57] And I would have to fight against that no matter where I went.

[00:36:02] And so, I mean, that's partly why I tell my story is because maybe my story might seem extreme.

[00:36:08] But we see patriarchy showing up in politics now and in small communities and how women are being treated.

[00:36:15] And I think we all need to keep talking about that.

[00:36:19] In terms of the way you were raised and how bodily autonomy is, well, you just don't have it.

[00:36:25] How is that something that you've, I don't want to say overcome or healed or come to terms with?

[00:36:30] And what are you seeing now?

[00:36:32] Yeah, I think partly why I was so sick after leaving.

[00:36:37] Like, my body, I felt sick a lot.

[00:36:40] And I had a struggle with PTSD.

[00:36:42] And I think partly it's because I had internalized all this shame about my body because of purity culture, because of this idea that my body wasn't worth anything except to a man.

[00:36:54] And, you know, leaving that, I had to heal from all that dissociation because I was just so disembodied and I didn't feel anything.

[00:37:05] And so going through trauma therapy helped me find a way to connect with my body again and feel like a human being who understands her feelings and pain and what that's for.

[00:37:19] That was a big part of my healing process.

[00:37:22] But then also, I remember, for instance, like 2016 with the elections where Trump won and leading up to that and the way he was talking about women and then seeing people vote for that.

[00:37:36] It really shook me a little bit that a lot of people didn't seem to care of how he was talking about women's bodies and how aggressive he was about that and still is.

[00:37:49] And so that was disturbing to see.

[00:37:53] And I think in recent years, seeing how health care has degraded in the U.S., especially for women, it's really troubling.

[00:38:01] I feel I feel it in my body.

[00:38:04] I feel like this pain of I don't want to go back there.

[00:38:07] I don't want to go back to this place where I had no say over my body.

[00:38:11] I feel lucky that I live in Michigan, which is a state with reproductive care.

[00:38:16] And I was able to get treatment for like endometriosis and able to get a hysterectomy without having to go through my husband or that kind of thing.

[00:38:25] I feel really lucky that I've been able to treat my reproductive health care in a healthy way without having to go through a lot of hoops to prove that I need it.

[00:38:38] And so I think it's different with every state.

[00:38:40] And I think it's a really complicated issue.

[00:38:42] And I want to be sensitive to the fact that a lot of people have different opinions about this.

[00:38:49] But I also think that women aren't being listened to about what's good for them.

[00:38:54] And I think that's a scary thing, you know, for me.

[00:38:58] But also I do think we have a lot of choices that we can change that trajectory.

[00:39:03] I want to send you this Instagram video that I think I actually didn't realize.

[00:39:09] I'm from Canada.

[00:39:10] Everything's very different.

[00:39:11] But I didn't realize that in certain states, women up until very recently had to get their husband's approval to get a hysterectomy.

[00:39:17] Yeah.

[00:39:18] Or get their tubes tied.

[00:39:19] Did you know that?

[00:39:20] No, I did not.

[00:39:21] Yeah.

[00:39:21] I don't know which states.

[00:39:23] But the video is satire, but it's a video of a woman doctor in the mass trying to get his vasectomy.

[00:39:31] And she's just so condescending.

[00:39:33] And she's like, does your mommy know?

[00:39:34] Does your mother know?

[00:39:36] Do you have a note from your wife to do this?

[00:39:38] Really?

[00:39:38] Oh, no.

[00:39:39] I don't make the rules, honey.

[00:39:40] Oh.

[00:39:41] And it's just like, I can't do it justice.

[00:39:45] I'll send it to you.

[00:39:46] That's perfect.

[00:39:47] I mean, have a good laugh about a very upsetting and dark issue.

[00:39:50] I am with you there.

[00:39:52] But as you probably know, the Trad Wife movement has gotten very popular in social media.

[00:39:57] Is it a movement?

[00:39:59] Are we ready to call it a movement?

[00:40:00] Are we calling it a movement?

[00:40:01] I don't know.

[00:40:01] What is it?

[00:40:02] The Trad Wife vibe?

[00:40:04] I mean.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:05] Talk to us about that.

[00:40:07] And how do you feel about it?

[00:40:08] And what should we do?

[00:40:10] Really?

[00:40:10] I feel like I'm still trying to figure it out because it's very complex.

[00:40:15] Me too.

[00:40:16] I'm trying to get my head around this.

[00:40:17] Yeah.

[00:40:18] And I think there's different people with different motivations and perspectives on it.

[00:40:23] And I think, you know, the Trad Wife trend is kind of easy to pick on because, you know, I think it's, well, for one thing, it's easy to pick on women, I think, on the internet.

[00:40:32] And also women who are choosing to stay home.

[00:40:36] But what's problematic about it is the certain creators who are saying this is how to be a true woman is to stay home and submit to your husband.

[00:40:46] And so that's what I think is problematic is those creators who are saying you need to submit to your husband to be a good person.

[00:40:55] And that means giving up your agency.

[00:40:58] And that's what's troubling to me is when anytime someone is pushing someone into a lifestyle where you're giving up your personal agency and your decision-making power.

[00:41:08] And so I see those creators as troubling.

[00:41:14] It's just extreme.

[00:41:15] Yeah, it's extreme.

[00:41:16] But then there's also Trad Wife creators who are just into the aesthetic and really into, like, homemaking and…

[00:41:24] Baking bread.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:26] And there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:41:27] There's nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom.

[00:41:29] And I think it gets confusing because those communities are overlapping a little bit.

[00:41:35] I think in one sense, it could be like, you know, how my family was radicalized to an idea.

[00:41:41] I think you could get in for the aesthetic and then you could get pulled down this tunnel towards more conservative Trad Wife.

[00:41:48] Well, it's the difference between men and women working together to build something and men telling what women's role is.

[00:41:59] It's basically men determining their role and the woman's role.

[00:42:02] And that's not marriage.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:05] And also, like, there's a lot of people who maybe don't listen to this podcast, silly, silly people, who don't know or read your book or whatever, just like your average person who sees something like Ballerina Farm and thinks, oh, that's so pretty with her sourdough.

[00:42:19] And, like, she's riding horses and homeschooling.

[00:42:23] Tell them who Ballerina Farm is.

[00:42:26] You tell us who Ballerina Farm is, Kate.

[00:42:29] Ballerina Farm is one of the bigger trad wife content creators, even though I believe she has never used the term trad wife.

[00:42:37] She's lumped into that.

[00:42:38] But she is Mormon.

[00:42:41] And I believe when her husband and her were first dating, she was going to be a ballerina.

[00:42:49] I think she was studying at NYU or, you know.

[00:42:52] Something in New York.

[00:42:53] Something in New York.

[00:42:54] Or was it Juilliard?

[00:42:56] I think maybe Juilliard.

[00:42:56] Yes, Juilliard.

[00:42:57] Yeah.

[00:42:57] And he convinced her.

[00:42:59] This is my perspective on it.

[00:43:01] He convinced her to give that up and start a family early.

[00:43:04] And now they have a lot of children.

[00:43:06] They have a big farm.

[00:43:08] She does a lot of homesteading work and also creates content, which is financially successful for her.

[00:43:17] But what's troubling is how much say does she have over that lifestyle?

[00:43:22] And that's something that I don't think outside people can know.

[00:43:25] You know, I think when it's a religious reason for being a trad wife, it can be really tricky.

[00:43:31] Because, like, where's the line between choice and coercion?

[00:43:35] Right.

[00:43:35] And for me, what's really troubling about the trad wife content is how much they use their children as content and promoting their lifestyle by videoing their children and using them in all this material for social media.

[00:43:51] And I'm worried about the children.

[00:43:58] And I think that's what's missed a lot in these conversations.

[00:44:05] And I think that's what's missed a lot in these conversations is what's happening to the children of the trad wives.

[00:44:07] Often, my perspective of growing up in a world that was very trad wife-like, like, we didn't use that term.

[00:44:14] But there's, you know, when you're quiverful, you have lots and lots of children.

[00:44:18] There's no way for parents to truly take care of that many children in my perspective.

[00:44:25] I've seen a lot of neglect and abuse and older children being parentified to take care of younger children.

[00:44:34] And they're all so vulnerable because they have no other options.

[00:44:37] It's one thing for a woman to say, I want to be a trad wife.

[00:44:41] But it's another thing for a child to be born into a family and not know any different.

[00:44:47] For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir.

[00:44:50] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:44:55] I narrate the audio version and it's also available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores.

[00:45:00] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Cult-y sponsors.

[00:45:03] And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

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[00:45:44] Break time's over, people.

[00:45:45] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Cult-y.

[00:45:48] It's a good one.

[00:45:50] And there's ample evidence to suggest if you have over, I think, three kids.

[00:45:55] One of them, I think the stats, one out of every three kind of has a problem.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:46:00] And it's like, I don't know if there's a certain number we can say, but it's just like,

[00:46:03] when you have like, you know, the Duggars 19 kids, right?

[00:46:06] No.

[00:46:06] It's not possible.

[00:46:07] It's not possible to dedicate the time and energy to each child that they need from your parents.

[00:46:14] I feel that with two kids.

[00:46:16] Yeah.

[00:46:16] I feel like I always split.

[00:46:18] Like when one of them's out for a sleepover, I'm like, oh, I get to actually connect with this other one better, deeper.

[00:46:24] It's hard.

[00:46:25] So Christian patriarchy's effect on women is obvious, right?

[00:46:30] But what impact does it have on boys who grew up with it?

[00:46:33] Yeah.

[00:46:33] And what about grown men who've escaped the movement?

[00:46:35] What is there like with your brother?

[00:46:37] What was his reasoning?

[00:46:38] Yeah.

[00:46:38] I think it's very harmful to everybody.

[00:46:42] I think patriarchy, like we like to say that it benefits men, but the people I know who are deep in patriarchy, the men are not happy or fulfilled people.

[00:46:52] They're struggling to keep up that pressure and often shut out other people.

[00:46:57] They don't have real relationships.

[00:46:59] And so I think patriarchy harms everybody.

[00:47:01] And for boys growing up in it, they don't have any other way to be a man.

[00:47:07] Like they're shown you have to be this kind of man.

[00:47:11] And girls have to be this kind of woman.

[00:47:13] And so boys are taught like you have to be hyper masculine.

[00:47:17] You have to be into violence and hunting and, you know, these stereotypes of what a man is.

[00:47:25] And then you have to grow up to control your family as a man.

[00:47:29] And so any boy who doesn't fit into that gender box is going to struggle with his identity of like, am I, you know, a man enough?

[00:47:38] Am I good enough to be here?

[00:47:40] And I talk a little bit about my younger brother in the book because my brother is gay and him growing up in this, there was no room for him to be himself as someone who struggled with his identity and how to be truthful about that to his family, knowing that he would be, you know, excommunicated for coming out, which did happen.

[00:48:03] And so excommunication and in this kind of church is like taking you off the membership roles.

[00:48:10] And it's not like a full shunning, but you aren't part of that church community anymore.

[00:48:15] And so watching that happen to my brother is really painful, you know, and I think it's important to highlight how patriarchy hurts everybody because there's specific ways it hurts women and then there's specific ways it hurts men.

[00:48:29] And I think it just leads to a toxic environment for everyone in this hierarchy of power.

[00:48:37] And I don't think that's a healthy way to be a human.

[00:48:41] Also ruling over your family.

[00:48:43] Like what kind of relationship are you going to have with, you know, if everyone sees you as an authoritarian, at worst, tyrannical figure?

[00:48:49] Speaking of toxic, where did you make the cult connection?

[00:48:54] Since we're on a little bit culty.

[00:48:56] Yeah, I didn't for a while.

[00:48:57] You know what?

[00:48:58] Actually, I'm almost like embarrassed to say this, but watching The Vow was a really big moment for me.

[00:49:04] Don't be embarrassed.

[00:49:05] We love hearing that.

[00:49:07] I had been talking about this for a while and struggling with my own personal stuff.

[00:49:13] And watching that series, it was like so familiar in a way that I couldn't explain because I didn't really think of myself in a cult before then.

[00:49:23] It was hard to take on that term and use it because I had been taught certain things were cults.

[00:49:30] Like I was taught Mormons are cults or Jehovah's Witness or basically anybody who wasn't our church was a cult.

[00:49:36] And so watching that and seeing the same kinds of dynamics and same kind of power and control and feeling like, oh, this is what it felt like for me to be in my family and in my church.

[00:49:48] That's when it started clicking for me that there's something bigger going on here.

[00:49:52] There's something more systemic about this kind of ideology.

[00:49:57] And that's like part of my journey of learning about what is a cult?

[00:50:02] What is coercive control?

[00:50:03] Like what are these red flags?

[00:50:05] And that helped me understand more of my experience with my church, especially when I was a teenager.

[00:50:11] So that was a big moment for me watching the vow and taking on that term and saying, yeah, I think what I experienced was like a cult.

[00:50:19] It is a cult or whatever you want to say is cult-like.

[00:50:24] What's troubling about Christian patriarchy is it teaches each father to be the cult leader.

[00:50:30] Yes.

[00:50:31] So you have many family cults, right?

[00:50:34] And the dad is the cult leader.

[00:50:36] And there are certain rules about that, right?

[00:50:39] And so if you break the rules, you get kicked out of the family.

[00:50:42] Like that happened to my older brother.

[00:50:43] We lost contact with him for a while because he left.

[00:50:47] And, you know, seeing these different things happen to my siblings, seeing how it affected me, it definitely had those same dynamics of punishment when you don't conform.

[00:50:58] And what about healing?

[00:50:59] You know, I know you've mentioned different therapies.

[00:51:01] And I have these notes that I take when I'm reading the book.

[00:51:04] And one of the things I wrote is your description of hypervigilance.

[00:51:08] And then there's this little emoticon of somebody like, so obviously that hit me.

[00:51:12] And I forget where you described it, but I was excited for Nippy to read it because I definitely had a lot of hypervigilance with my PTSD.

[00:51:18] And you were like, Nippy calls it being on sniper mode.

[00:51:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:21] Yeah.

[00:51:22] Where are you at with your healing process?

[00:51:24] And has any particular methods helped you?

[00:51:26] Yeah.

[00:51:27] So when I first left, I didn't know what PTSD was.

[00:51:32] And so I struggled for years with panic attacks and night terrors and like the whole spectrum of PTSD.

[00:51:40] And it wasn't until I did more research and learned what that was that I was able to get up the courage to go to therapy because, again, I was told therapy was bad.

[00:51:49] And so I had a first experience with a virtual therapist.

[00:51:52] And that was a way for me to dip my toes into it a little bit.

[00:51:57] But ultimately, it wasn't a good timing and it wasn't a good therapist for me until I found a therapist who specialized in religious trauma.

[00:52:06] And that's what I really needed more than talk therapy was trauma therapy.

[00:52:11] Right.

[00:52:11] Because trauma lives in your body, not just your brain.

[00:52:14] And you can't really talk through some of those things.

[00:52:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:17] So I did EMDR therapy, which is, I'm not going to remember the full.

[00:52:23] It's like desensitization.

[00:52:25] It's okay.

[00:52:26] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:52:26] It's okay.

[00:52:30] And what it's doing is like triggering different sides of your brain as you reprocess memories.

[00:52:36] And so you don't even have to talk through it when you're doing it.

[00:52:40] Like it's a lot of internal work with a safe therapist.

[00:52:44] And it was really painful to go back to these memories that I felt said something was wrong with me and realizing how I was treated was what was wrong.

[00:52:55] And reprocessing those and making them feel less scary and less like I was still living them.

[00:53:02] Because I felt, I had a lot of flashbacks and like felt that hypervigilance of living still in the traumatic place.

[00:53:09] But EMDR helped me come out of that and live in my present moment where I am safe and I'm not living with my father anymore.

[00:53:17] I'm so glad.

[00:53:18] Yeah, it was, I mean, the nightmares stopped.

[00:53:21] Those specific nightmares I was having stopped.

[00:53:24] I felt lighter.

[00:53:25] Like it was really intense to go through it.

[00:53:28] But then when I would leave, I was like, oh, I feel lighter.

[00:53:31] I feel like something's gone.

[00:53:33] And I can still remember those things, but I can talk about it now.

[00:53:36] I don't have to like, I used to shake when I talked about it.

[00:53:39] I wouldn't have been able to write this book without going through that because it was just too much.

[00:53:44] And did you find the actual writing of it healing?

[00:53:47] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:53:49] I think I would have been really happy to write it even if no one else read the book.

[00:53:54] Because for me, it was important to tell my story.

[00:53:58] My voice had been stolen from me.

[00:54:00] And so taking that back and telling my story from my perspective was just this, a healing thing in itself of saying this is what happened to me.

[00:54:09] And this is who I am.

[00:54:11] And part of that process was difficult because I wanted to erase all the past and just start new.

[00:54:20] But you can't take away what's happened, right?

[00:54:23] You can't forget what's happened to you.

[00:54:26] And so writing it helped me integrate who I was in the past and who I am now.

[00:54:32] And try to put that together and accept my younger self.

[00:54:36] You know, because I felt a lot of shame for who I was and not being able to leave.

[00:54:41] And now I have a lot more compassion because I've been able to write through some of those feelings.

[00:54:47] And how about your family?

[00:54:49] How about them?

[00:54:51] Have they read the book?

[00:54:54] What's the status of the relationships there?

[00:54:56] Have you healed the rift?

[00:54:57] Yeah.

[00:54:58] How are you with them?

[00:55:00] It's so complicated.

[00:55:01] And, you know, when I left when I was 25, I felt like I had broken my family apart.

[00:55:06] Because even though my older brother had left, it was never like directly addressed.

[00:55:12] And so me leaving and being very vocal about why I was leaving caused a lot of friction in our family.

[00:55:18] And I thought maybe I would never see them ever again.

[00:55:22] But that's not what happened.

[00:55:24] Over the years, my siblings and I have worked together to learn how to understand each other.

[00:55:32] Because, you know, like in every family, each sibling has a different kind of experience.

[00:55:36] And so we've learned to listen to each other and understand each other's perspectives.

[00:55:42] And I think it's been really, really healing to do that.

[00:55:45] A couple years ago was the first time we'd all been together in like a decade.

[00:55:49] And that was a really amazing moment of seeing how far we had come, you know,

[00:55:55] because at some points it was like, are we ever going to be a family again?

[00:55:58] It's a little more complicated with my parents.

[00:56:00] I still have contact with my mom.

[00:56:02] And she's very supportive of the book and of me.

[00:56:05] And that's really great.

[00:56:07] But, you know, she's married to my dad and we have no contact, my dad and I.

[00:56:12] And so that was really painful when that happened about five years ago.

[00:56:17] But also very liberating because I felt free to tell my story

[00:56:22] without thinking about everything he was going to say about it or get upset.

[00:56:26] So, you know, I think it became clear that he wasn't a safe person for me to have in my life.

[00:56:33] He's never acknowledged anything that he did wrong.

[00:56:36] And so...

[00:56:37] Nothing, yeah.

[00:56:38] Wow.

[00:56:38] That's so hard.

[00:56:40] In spite of two children distancing themselves, he doesn't take any of that in, huh?

[00:56:44] No.

[00:56:45] I mean, I think, you know, I could speculate about, you know, health diagnoses and stuff,

[00:56:50] but I don't want to do that.

[00:56:51] I have no idea.

[00:56:52] Sure.

[00:56:52] Yeah, right.

[00:56:53] But I do think, you know, partly is when you think you're doing things God's way,

[00:56:58] it's really hard to let go of that belief and to say, well...

[00:57:03] That's hard to shake.

[00:57:04] Yeah.

[00:57:04] And you think that you have to stay by that for God to accept you.

[00:57:09] And so I'm not sure his real motivations.

[00:57:12] I think there's just certain personalities that are like that.

[00:57:15] And he has a hard time admitting guilt.

[00:57:18] And next thing we'd call that a pride issue.

[00:57:22] In the world, I would call it a pride issue.

[00:57:25] It's hard to not name it something.

[00:57:28] Yeah.

[00:57:28] From this outside perspective, we were emailing about your passion for children's rights and

[00:57:34] teaching about consent.

[00:57:35] Do you want to share anything about that?

[00:57:37] I am very passionate about children having adequate healthcare and education and understanding

[00:57:45] that they have autonomy over their bodies and consent from a young age.

[00:57:49] I think that's really important for kids to learn.

[00:57:52] And because I'm a homeschool alumni, I feel like part of what I want to share is how homeschooling

[00:57:59] can be reformed to be a safer way of education for children.

[00:58:04] I feel very neutral about all forms of education.

[00:58:07] I'm not like anti-homeschooling.

[00:58:10] I think if I had kids, I probably would do public school just because of my situation.

[00:58:14] But I know a lot of people, it fits better with their family and their needs for their

[00:58:20] kids.

[00:58:20] But unfortunately, most states or all the states have limited regulation on homeschooling.

[00:58:27] And so most kids in homeschooling aren't getting access to things like mandatory reporters or

[00:58:34] people that they can talk to if they're experiencing abuse.

[00:58:38] And I mean, many, many, almost all states, you can be a sex offender and still homeschool

[00:58:44] your kids.

[00:58:44] Right.

[00:58:45] And so...

[00:58:46] That's crazy.

[00:58:47] Yeah.

[00:58:47] Yeah.

[00:58:48] That is crazy.

[00:58:49] There are not enough regulations on homeschooling that there would be in a publicly funded school.

[00:58:55] And so I think we need to just bring that over to homeschool reform.

[00:58:59] Obviously, public schools need reform too.

[00:59:01] But I think for me, I like to speak to homeschooling because that's my experience.

[00:59:06] And there may be lots of families who are doing it well and the kids are safe.

[00:59:11] But kids who are being abused and neglected fall through the cracks and there's no safety

[00:59:16] net for them.

[00:59:16] And so it's important to think about the bigger community, not just individuals, because

[00:59:21] those kids like me who didn't know they had rights as a person.

[00:59:27] So I always like to point to the Coalition for Responsible Home Education.

[00:59:32] They have been around for about a decade and run by homeschool alumni like me.

[00:59:40] And they have been working on bringing awareness to this issue and making legislation that different

[00:59:46] states can use to bring up bills to propose reform for homeschooling regulations because

[00:59:52] every state has different rules.

[00:59:54] And so they're a great foundation.

[00:59:57] Yeah.

[00:59:57] I imagine that gets complicated because I think the catalyst for a lot of people going to

[01:00:00] homeschool is they don't trust the school system and the state.

[01:00:03] And then you try and implement some sort of regulation.

[01:00:06] They're just going to perceive it the same way.

[01:00:08] Right?

[01:00:08] So it's kind of...

[01:00:09] I mean...

[01:00:10] How do you mitigate that?

[01:00:11] Like, I don't, you know...

[01:00:12] Like, how do you make it any kind of, like, cult-like environment happening, right?

[01:00:16] Like, information, spreading information, spreading awareness, showing compassion, being willing

[01:00:22] to have conversations, saying that we have common ground.

[01:00:26] We want the best for kids.

[01:00:28] Well put, yeah.

[01:00:29] And what does that look like?

[01:00:31] And maybe it's not, you know, so many regulations that you feel like you can't do things your way,

[01:00:38] but enough regulations to protect kids from neglect, right?

[01:00:41] So there has to be some way of finding that middle ground, I think.

[01:00:45] And every state's going to be, you know, the way it is, it's every state's different.

[01:00:49] And I think talking to homeschool alumni, the kids who grew up this way, is really important to learn how to do it better in the future.

[01:00:58] Because most of the time when I get pushback about homeschooling reform, it's homeschooling parents who say,

[01:01:05] but I do it this way and I want it my way.

[01:01:09] And they're not listening to the people who experienced this as a child.

[01:01:13] And I think that's really important or even more important than, you know, so-called parental rights.

[01:01:18] I think it's important to treat children as human beings while respecting the parental oversight, you know?

[01:01:24] So I think there's a way to figure that out and we just have to keep talking about it.

[01:01:27] People are reasonable.

[01:01:29] Yeah.

[01:01:29] Well, you've come so far and your trajectory from being, you know, homeschooled and isolated and scared

[01:01:38] and all the things that you endured to where you are now is really inspiring and very impressive.

[01:01:43] And I hope our listeners enjoy your book as much as we did.

[01:01:48] And do you want to tell us quickly what you're doing now and what people can find you?

[01:01:52] Yeah. So my day job is as a book editor.

[01:01:56] So I got to pursue my own career, which has been wonderful.

[01:02:00] I love working with books.

[01:02:02] And now I get to write books too, which is great.

[01:02:05] And I also volunteer for Tears of Eden, which we've mentioned before.

[01:02:09] Catherine Spearing founded that.

[01:02:12] And so I work with the editorial board to help other survivors tell their stories on our website

[01:02:17] and bring more resources to them.

[01:02:21] And so that's been a really wonderful way to give back.

[01:02:25] And I also have a podcast called Survivors Discuss with a couple of friends of mine who are also cult survivors.

[01:02:32] And we like to have panel discussions with different kinds of people about certain topics like complex PTSD, for instance.

[01:02:40] And you can find me online.

[01:02:42] I'm on most social media at Kate West Writes.

[01:02:45] I spell my first name with a C, C-A-I-T.

[01:02:49] Also my website.

[01:02:50] And then I have a Substack newsletter if you'd like to get email updates from me.

[01:02:54] So I'm a lot of places.

[01:02:56] You can get the book anywhere you like to get your books.

[01:03:00] And like I said, I read the audio.

[01:03:01] If you like listening to audio, there's also an e-book and a hardcover.

[01:03:04] So yeah, pick your choice.

[01:03:06] Amazing.

[01:03:06] The hardcover is so beautiful, too.

[01:03:08] I really love the aesthetic of it.

[01:03:10] And it's like the rift has a different feel to it, which I think is really cool.

[01:03:16] And I guess your experience in publishing helped you here.

[01:03:19] And just a question.

[01:03:21] As you were talking, I'm assuming you've connected with or I was wondering if you've had on your podcast or worked with Dr. Laura Anderson, who wrote.

[01:03:27] Oh, yes.

[01:03:27] I guess there's only so many people in the space.

[01:03:30] You must all know each other.

[01:03:32] Yeah, we have her on the podcast.

[01:03:34] And I love her book about religious trauma.

[01:03:36] I think she has been so helpful to me.

[01:03:38] And I love recommending her work to other people, too, because religious trauma is something that it's similar to other kinds of psychological trauma.

[01:03:49] But I think it helps to have someone who knows what it's like from within a religious perspective.

[01:03:54] Yes.

[01:03:54] Just because it's the specific part of it.

[01:03:58] So yeah, highly recommend Laura.

[01:04:00] Yes.

[01:04:01] And for those who don't know her work, we will put that in the show notes.

[01:04:04] And just to kind of to bridge the gap, to bridge the rift, as it were.

[01:04:09] When I read that book, I was like, oh, I was researching for the podcast.

[01:04:12] I didn't realize that reading that would help me.

[01:04:15] And I know that now, so I feel like every time I get to read a memoir, including yours, I heal more.

[01:04:23] And we get to learn.

[01:04:26] And I think that for those people who are like, oh, maybe who are listening to this who were not in a religious cult like us, like we were in a personal development cult, or maybe they're in a yoga cult.

[01:04:36] It's actually the same exact process.

[01:04:38] It's just not-

[01:04:38] Different vocabulary.

[01:04:39] Yeah, it's just not a religious, not God that's creating the fear.

[01:04:43] In our case, it's Keith.

[01:04:44] Or the tech.

[01:04:45] Or the tech.

[01:04:46] Or the like, it's embarrassing saying Keith is our God.

[01:04:49] But like, that's kind of what it was.

[01:04:50] Like, well, Keith said this, and Keith said that.

[01:04:52] Or the upper ranks having control over us and keeping us in place.

[01:04:56] And, you know, we were evangelical personal development proselytizers.

[01:05:01] So we had a different, there are different words for it, but it's the same experience.

[01:05:04] So I highly recommend your book to anyone who wants to have that same catharsis and learn and to connect and to find you on all the socials.

[01:05:13] And we can't thank you enough for your time.

[01:05:16] Thank you, Kate.

[01:05:16] Thank you so much.

[01:05:20] If you like this show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes.

[01:05:25] Cults are commonplace now, and we're looking at them all, and every little bit helps.

[01:05:30] Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode.

[01:05:35] Wow, what an interesting and terrifying conversation about Christian patriarchy.

[01:05:39] Do make sure to grab a copy of Kate's book, Rift, A Memoir of Breaking Away from Christian Patriarchy, and check out her podcast, Survivors Discuss.

[01:05:47] Kate's on the board of a nonprofit that helps survivors of religious abuse.

[01:05:51] It's called Tears of Eden, and it's a great place to start if you want to help.

[01:05:54] We'll make sure to put that in our show notes.

[01:05:56] Thanks again, as always, and see you next time on A Little Bit Cult-y.

[01:06:18] A Little Bit Cult-y is a Trace 120 production.

[01:06:20] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames, in collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[01:06:26] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy.

[01:06:28] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios, and our writing and research is done by Emma Deal and Kristen Reeder.

[01:06:34] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.