Stop the Presses: Vanessa Grigoriadis on NXIVM (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit cultier, those are the hosts. And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:34] Any of the quote, fire content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors of the opinion and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization, business individual, anyone or anything, unless they're... You're a douchebag.

[00:00:48] Yeah. We're not doctor, psychologist, therapist, license counselors or shamans. Even though you kind of think you are sometimes. I'm like an urban shaman. Okay. Good talk. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:08] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:20] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:33] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped next to him, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:40] Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that that's separate.

[00:01:53] So it's two days we gotta hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:05] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:16] This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com Vanessa Gregoriadas You got it.

[00:02:52] It's time to say it, Sarah. You got it. I'm a professional. Who is this? I'm a podcast host. I'm a podcaster. That's what I do. Thank you. You really embrace this. Thank you. One person audience over here.

[00:03:03] We have a really exciting thing to announce which is that we've been in our new home for almost two months and we finally have the cords like all the tech, the focus rights, the cloud lifters, the cords, the thingamajigs, the mics to record across the table from each other.

[00:03:20] Podcast room. We have a podcast room. We don't have the panels up in about three weeks. The panels will be up and it'll sound even better.

[00:03:27] But the fact that we're in our new home in Atlanta, facing each other and also like sharing this episode with somebody that we haven't spoken to in over five years, it just feels kind of... In the serendipity that facilitated that with Mara. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:46] I'm just tripping out over here. I'm just like, wow. No, so let's give our listeners, people don't know who Vanessa is. I'm just going to tell you two things. Okay. First of all, this is a two-parter. It was a really long conversation. Is it double part amount?

[00:03:59] It's a double parter. And it was so great to reconnect. But let me tell you who she is. She's a long form journalist, a host, a podcaster, as well as the mother to two children and two parents, which I did not know.

[00:04:10] Her podcast, Infamous, takes a look at what it's been like to cover some of the most scandalous news stories in modern times. And that's where our intersection with Vanessa lies. She worked as a journalist covering the Nextium case. How did that come to be?

[00:04:24] Do you want to tell our listeners? Pretty sure our podcast gets into that.

[00:04:27] Well, just to set it up though, we did The New York Times and then we heard from our people on the ground that they were going to come back with the truth and they were going to have a response piece.

[00:04:36] And just keep in mind that Nextium had never done any press. Ever. Because they know when anyone looked under the hood, they're going to freak out. Yeah, but we thought it was it wasn't noble to engage with the media who are inherently unethical. So there's better.

[00:04:50] You can always find a problem with every system that has the potential to hold you accountable. Yeah. Needless to say this was going to be their first article. So we were out.

[00:04:58] We'd been out for a number of months and we heard from the people on the ground on the inside or spies as you might say that there is going to be a counterpiece also in The New York Times.

[00:05:08] Now it turned out not to be The New York Times. There's New York Magazine, but it's all connected, right? They're both in New York. Both in New York. I've clearly done my research, but no, they all know each other and I believe it's under the same umbrella.

[00:05:19] Yeah, yeah. So at this point, I was doing a lot of press.

[00:05:23] I'd even had to hire a PR team helping me navigate like being an actor and like, do I want to do, you know, inside edition, pass that match, you know, and do I want to do Dateline?

[00:05:34] I was going to and then we ended up pulling out Long Story. So anyway, talking to Vanessa for me was a no-brainer, especially if we knew that she'd been talking to Nexium.

[00:05:44] I had to make sure she didn't just have one side of the story, but there was a lot of. There's a lot of conjecture. Yeah. Some of it was somewhat rooted in reality. And we'll get into that whole backstory.

[00:05:55] Like there was of the people who left, there was sort of a disagreement of should we talk to her since she's already like infiltrated and maybe she's like working with. We didn't know if she was working for them or if it was like a puff piece or whatever.

[00:06:07] We didn't know. We didn't know if she had her strict objective journals hat on. Because we didn't know who she was.

[00:06:12] And if that was the case, we felt like we could help her for what to look at and how they're going to try and indoctrinate her, word salad her to get her to write a piece that was painting Nexium in a positive light.

[00:06:25] That was sort of like our worst case scenario. Oh God, Nexium is going to be painted in a positive light thanks to this show. It also just goes to show like it doesn't matter what the journalists do with the DOJ or has charges or whatever.

[00:06:36] It's like, you can write your puff piece. This guy is still going to jail. Yeah. I mean if knowing what we knew now, we wouldn't have been a problem.

[00:06:42] But at the time we were kind of freaked out and so we agreed to talk to her off the record also because we just didn't want them next game to know. Right? We didn't know. We didn't know who was all going to go down.

[00:06:53] So the last time we spoke to Vanessa is when we were both interviewed by her for this piece which we will include in the show notes. And this is our like almost five year rendezvous with Vanessa Arcak-Goriatis. And make sure to listen to part two.

[00:07:06] We'll include some clips to infamous and if you want to hear some of the most crazy dialogue, listen to this whole podcast. It's wild. Listen to hers. She has access to crazy footage. I'm not going to sign homework because I know that's a little bit old.

[00:07:20] But her podcast is great because she actually has the interviews behind the scene and she gets Alison Mack before Alison Mack turns. She has Claire and like her strategy. It really fills in a lot of blanks for us and I imagine it will for you all as well.

[00:07:33] And it also on a human level it shows how someone who's going in with eyes wide open can be lied to and misinformed to paint a narrative that wasn't particularly favorable because Keith is Keith.

[00:07:47] And it's hard to kind of spend that if you haven't been told how great he is before. But it does show how these things work or don't work.

[00:07:56] Vanessa's story is a great one to show how this can happen to kind of anyone, not obviously in degree, but in a short amount of time she didn't know them that well.

[00:08:03] For her to write the piece and then subsequently see what happened in the trial was hard for her as well. Right? So anyway give it a listen. It's great. I really enjoyed this conversation. Yeah.

[00:08:13] It's just really nice to part you know part rendezvous part for us filling in the blanks of things that happened behind the scenes that we could only imagine. And I appreciate everyone who reached out to tell us about infamous.

[00:08:24] A few people were like you might not want to listen it's pretty triggering and there were parts that were but generally it just fills in the gaps for us as to also confirms our concerns.

[00:08:33] Yeah, it does confirm some things so right enjoy the convo listen to both parts let us know what you think. And also if you're interested you can read her first article and I think she wrote a follow up and we'll include that as well.

[00:08:46] So without further ado Vanessa. Gregoriados. Hi, how are you? Nice to see you. Nice to see you too. It's been many many years. Five years actually I think exactly almost. Almost to the day. I think it's almost to the day like I feel like it was January February.

[00:09:15] Right that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah whenever they were scrambling so yeah it was about this time of 18 back when they were like maybe we should hire a PR firm and clean out our act. Oh, so much to discuss. Crazy. Yeah. All right where do we start?

[00:09:32] Where does this whole thing start? I could be something to the effect of it's interesting Vanessa. I don't know why these accusations exist in essence. Right. I live a very simple life. I live a very simple life.

[00:09:46] And the faux humbleness that I heard on your amazing series by the way is so good Vanessa. I know. Gold and you took your time and put something together that was just bang on. I loved it.

[00:09:58] We had so many of our listeners being like are you aware of this and I don't know if you want to listen because it's going to be kind of triggering and I was like oh god what now.

[00:10:06] And then our mutual well I guess your team Mara who's our mutual friend reached out and I was like what a small crazy world that she's doing your PR and we know her here. But before we get into all that, well first how are you?

[00:10:22] How are you doing? I'm good. Yeah. I was like I have two kids which is you know nutty as you both know. I live in New York City which Nipi knows a little something about and yeah it's nuts.

[00:10:33] I mean I'm whatever I'm taking care of my mom which is like the big thing so but others are not making podcasts. How old are your kids? Six and eleven. Okay so you had kids when we talked. Yeah. We weren't really talking about you and your wife.

[00:10:48] You would have just had one. You would have just had one. I had just had one. Wow. That's right.

[00:10:53] That's why when I was in like Washington, I mean so when I look back I think to myself oh my god why didn't I meet Nipi in Vancouver or something like that?

[00:11:02] Because I was touring my book and I think I was in Seattle and I remember you and I talked on the phone and we're like don't you want to like just come to Vancouver and meet me? And I was like dude I got to get home.

[00:11:14] Like I have a baby. You know and so but I think at that point I still wasn't totally clear on how like deep the story went right.

[00:11:26] And that was really my main error I think which I made for tactical reasons but had I known how dark this got I would have probably done a different tactic right.

[00:11:41] I mean like I used a tactic that works very well in journalism which is like focus on the get. Get everything you can get from the get and then move on to the other people you know.

[00:11:54] And the get was obviously nexium but I didn't realize which I would be curious to talk to both of you about as well because I know that a lot of stuff came out at the trial that wasn't known right. But I don't know.

[00:12:12] I mean I could have done it differently but then I would probably have lost them. Yeah let's back to this because this is like the cracks of what we want to talk with you about because it's so fascinating what they did to you and to all of us.

[00:12:24] The big con but like for those people who don't know this whole thing tell us like a little bit about yourself and who you were as a journalist and how you heard about this. Whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

[00:12:35] Yeah so you know I've been a journalist for 25 years in New York City pretty much all together and written for New York magazine for a million years and Vanity Fair and the Times magazine.

[00:12:47] And my specialty is sort of scan right and I've done a lot of like bold face name profiles I've interviewed you know Madonna Shakira Lady Gaga like big long interviews you know I had the first interview with Lady Gaga like ever.

[00:13:04] And she was in character right and I also do investigative stories but the investigative stories that I tend to do are more about like what's going on with the Dodgers and how is the money moving around and what is the corruption there and how does MLB work and all of that.

[00:13:23] They're not as much about you know certainly I've done some crime but I do not specialize in crime like and true crime is not my thing.

[00:13:33] But on a personal level I you know do a lot of yoga very much a seeker you know I wrote a big piece about the landmark forum that we can talk about.

[00:13:42] I would love to write a big piece about Anusara and John Friend you know my personal interest is in like how do I live a better life and how do I make people around me live a better life.

[00:13:56] And I would say you know Nippy and I went to similar kind of prep schools and a lot of my work focuses on like the rich and powerful and is trying to like work out my own feelings about having grown up pretty middle class in this world that really wasn't my own mixed with

[00:14:14] a desire to figure out like how to be a better human in the world right. So next thing got me at first with the like how do you be a better human in the world because I was like I want to be a better human.

[00:14:26] And then over and over they kept on talking about humanity humanity in this weird way where I was like it's not a chair you guys. Every time I ask a question you can't just say for the sake of humanity like. What does it even mean.

[00:14:44] I don't know what does it even mean it felt so 80s to me right like it felt very much like their philosophy was stuck in this time when everybody was talking about like live it or something like saving humanity down to Keith's like feathered haircut you know how are you approached.

[00:15:01] So I was working for the New York Times magazine when the story came out about the branding and you know the Times has many different desks right and all of them are separate.

[00:15:10] And the magazine in particular because we do stories that cross over all the different beats is basically sort of like its own little you know team and we have to make stories happen even if we don't have like deep sourcing in you know the area of health care or in Ukraine

[00:15:29] like you know it's very much like the journalists there just make the stories happen however they're going to and the idea is like a beginner's mind in some ways is a better storyteller mind right like and we all sort of know this that sometimes when you're you know writing about something

[00:15:47] you know so well you can get really confused and you don't know how to present the information so like it's really really simple for everybody to read who's coming as a newcomer to the information.

[00:15:58] So I think this works for storytelling for like long pieces right like we're talking like 10,000 word you know 10 page stories in the magazine.

[00:16:08] So what happened was I have a friend who is male writer and he called me up one day and said you know I think I have a story for you.

[00:16:16] And he said the reporting an axiom is totally wrong and actually they were all consent and they want to tell their story and this is somebody I have a huge amount of respect for right so I thought well that's really interesting and I was like well what why don't you want to do the story.

[00:16:33] And he said well I don't want to do the story because I'm a man and I don't feel you know it's appropriate but I talked to Allison Mack and I totally believe her.

[00:16:41] And I think this is a really fascinating story about like you know consent assault where the line is blah blah blah and I said well okay you know that sounds good to me and so he turned me over to Claire.

[00:16:55] And so that's how the whole like ride started and from there you know it was this question of what about Barry right because Barry had already done the reporting.

[00:17:06] Right Barry Meyer for those who don't know right and so our position was like we're doing new reporting where the magazine we do this all the time but it was you know not a great situation so I basically was coming in already knowing that there was some friction.

[00:17:24] In terms of Barry was like well if they they're going to talk to somebody they should talk to me and I was like well I don't know but it seems like I got the story.

[00:17:33] So there was like that journalist you know kind of competition thing where I was like why would I give you the story and then the incredible thing that happened is Nexium said well we're not sure we want to talk to you we want to talk to Rebecca Tracer at New York.

[00:17:50] She's a massive feminist writer. She's a massive feminist you know she writes about like Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi she's a political feminist writer and I was like Rebecca Tracer does not want to do something about your cults like are you guys really are you being real you know.

[00:18:11] You weren't sure at that time if it was a cult you weren't you were going in like we don't know at this point right where was your mindset you know I was going in.

[00:18:19] I mean I think the interesting thing is to think for me is to think back to what part of this was me trying to convince myself that I was going to get this really great story you know well maybe there is something awry. Dangling the carrot.

[00:18:35] Right and what part of it was me truly feeling like this was not a cult. I mean I would say that you know as I say in my podcast I think cult is a gross word sometimes I think it's applied too much.

[00:18:47] I think like people there's all sorts of like little you know religious offshoots that shouldn't be called cults it's not right you know Christianity is a cult like it's just it's a weird word and so that part I was willing to like be like yes I will definitely hear you guys out on this and yes I'll hear you out on everything you know like I was willing to hear you

[00:19:08] I was willing to hear them out on everything and I was willing to like basically think you know think it through with them.

[00:19:15] I think that might be a reason because you demonstrate you can be sensitive to things that most people aren't sensitive to but there's I think there's an oversight and the reason I'm jumping in here.

[00:19:24] I heard in your series where India said one of the reasons you were targeted is because you seem to be a feminist why do you think feminist writers were being targeted I think that's really interesting.

[00:19:34] I mean so I thought you know I mean when I heard that they were trying to talk to Rebecca I remember thinking to myself like wow maybe maybe they're right like maybe we do sort of have it wrong at the same time as thinking like are you guys lunatics.

[00:19:52] Why would Rebecca Tracer ever talk to you like she's in the capital talking to Hillary Clinton right now like that doesn't seem to make sense right so I have felt that was like the first sort of like cognitive dissonance thing that I felt.

[00:20:07] But I think generally yeah you're right like there was from their perspective now looking back I can think of it like there was a narrowing of focus right which is like why would nobody believe us that Keith wasn't involved in DOS why would nobody why would feminist writers not think this was feminist.

[00:20:28] I mean like you know what I mean like that inability to navigate like objective reality and I think that was probably part of it and they thought that this was very obviously you know Keith and I think it all comes from Keith right Keith's perspective which is let's jump in here let's get a feminist writer let's have the female

[00:20:48] writer say and vouch for our you know way of women's empowerment gender right like gender ideology which is basically like this is empowerment and you guys don't get it because your sheep and your

[00:21:05] your victims and you know we're against the culture and I mean it was actually kind of a smart thing if it made sense.

[00:21:12] It actually is smart I think it is too because you're leveraging the feminist and why would the feminist stand for brand it's actually smart if he could have pulled it off but that's where his arrogance right and this just this idea that like I mean and again with the branding I was like okay I mean people get brands I

[00:21:27] have brands I have friends who have you know things with their noses and tattoos and blah blah blah like okay like it's going to be more hardcore.

[00:21:35] The incredible thing going back to these tapes is I was like I remembered the whole reason from their perspective of why this thing went down was nippy coming to the coach summit and throwing a fit right.

[00:21:50] It wasn't really about like Mark's partner like it really that was they had sort of moved past that part like she is sort of non entity in Keith's mind maybe because she's a woman and she's not important and she's not smart and she was just annoying or whatever it was right and you know they were certainly very angry at Sarah but but that was also like a side thing it was like nippy walking into the coach summit having a tantrum right like

[00:22:18] not was the moment when everything fell apart I mean is that how you both feel go ahead.

[00:22:24] We know that it was a strategy we know that it was those things and the interesting thing about it for me was I was with someone who I had just told the night before who was coming to the coach summit and I said listen I'm going in there and I'm going to make a fucking stink tomorrow and here's why blah blah blah he had a hard time believing me I go look here's the deal you got to make a decision right now you're in with me to go in here and do this I'm going to go up there and do this tomorrow.

[00:22:48] Or you can go back and you can pretend but tomorrow this is happening and I went park the car he's like you should record it on your phone and I put it in my pocket that was my idea as well like people know my idea man might have been your idea whatever.

[00:23:01] And I go in there do my entire thing go back to my car call him and say where the fuck are you he's like I haven't gone in yet I go meet me on the side we're getting out of here already happened so I knew going in there and ringing a bell really really loudly was going to have an effect.

[00:23:17] I knew what they were going to say to me they're going to discredit me my character but I knew there was enough people who knew me to know if I reacted that way not just there but elsewhere and how they're going to have to contain the shrapnel of that was just going to cause a slew of problems for them that was just going to buy us time.

[00:23:32] Right.

[00:23:33] That was the initial it wasn't this long term thought out thing I was like we need to buy time I was like I'll go in there and flip some tables which I literally was going to do I was going to flip a table but then I was like no that means Revy Camilla and all these people that I like are going to have to clean up the eggs.

[00:23:46] Right. And I didn't want to do that so I just grabbed a couple people.

[00:23:50] Yeah it was a thoughtful it was a thoughtful temper tantrum and so I went in and said what I had to say and in hindsight I would have said more but I think the punch landed and then you know that kind of set off chain reaction of events.

[00:24:04] This is the golden age of cult recovery. The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone. Your voice and your story can empower others.

[00:24:15] This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement. Learn more at I got out.org. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. That's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it?

[00:24:43] Well I definitely have some non negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it.

[00:24:53] Nature is a non negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:25:01] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it.

[00:25:08] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that.

[00:25:21] And if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help or try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

[00:25:34] Look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself non negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with better help.

[00:25:45] Visit better help dot com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help H E L P dot com slash culty. The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:26:00] I just had a 12 year old boy so appeared asking for help. He's emaciated he's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

[00:26:18] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. And who knows maybe we would have done something different knowing what we know now but I think given where we were at and the information we had it was the best. Course of action.

[00:26:33] Also it was the voice of outrage which no one in there would ever do their voice of outrage was dead.

[00:26:39] Everyone and I think if they saw someone who is you know they looked at as a leader in the organization use outrage appropriately and then find out the reason I was outraged was because my wife had Keith Reneary's initials in her crotch.

[00:26:51] That's a logical premise that I think most people regardless of how asleep they are can go well I understand why Nippy did that. I don't agree and I'm staying but still that's going to plant a seed somehow if someone went in there.

[00:27:03] And obviously I don't want to handle my problems with violence and being in that category that demographic of people but I felt like outrage is an appropriate note at this point and I'll live with the ramifications of that.

[00:27:13] Totally yeah they had to be sort of you know roused from their slumber right like I mean I think that that's you know that's another point that Keith and Claire and everybody kept making to me which is like if they were Nancy.

[00:27:26] If they want to go go why do you have to ruin our organization you know why do you have to ruin our business this is so vindictive you know so that was the you know what is moral about this.

[00:27:39] I have a question did Vanessa I mean did Nancy play you my voicemail no show how angry I was no she didn't okay but you saw the vows season two.

[00:27:48] Yes yes apparently she played that voicemail for a lot of people as they also showed my branding video to a lot of people did they ever show it to you right.

[00:27:58] No they did not but you heard on there yeah that they did show it to people were knowledgeable about it they did put me on the phone with a private investigator who was investigating.

[00:28:12] No no I mean God I don't mean I think had just been involved in the idea of trying to get you in trouble and Vancouver and I was like what's like what are you saying you know and how do I have I mean look.

[00:28:27] I did think about writing a book or something after this because I had a lot of extra material that I couldn't fit in the story but when I realized that everybody was writing a book that was much closer to the situation than me I was like there's no reason for me to be in this and I really like Sarah Berman's book

[00:28:46] I think she did a great job I thought that but I was going to say you the two of you could have co-authored a book together and I do think that book is very like comprehensive cohesive and like a really good overview much more so than mine even because it like has all these other like the whole history

[00:29:02] and the template of abuse is so obvious right all the breadcrumbs that were there for years yeah but let's go back to your journey so because as you know like we usually follow survivors of how did you get in and how did you what were the red flags and how do you wake up you're not a survivor but they did hook you to a degree right

[00:29:22] was your first interaction with Claire or who did you meet first Claire yeah okay so I talked to Claire on the phone a few times to you know sort of like understand what the story was probably being vetted as well I got a sense of what it was they wanted to say and I said okay well I need to talk to Allison so they said okay you can go to this apartment in Brooklyn Heights

[00:29:45] so I went to an apartment was snowing very hard and I went to this apartment in Brooklyn Heights and immediately thought to myself is this her apartment because it looked like a bunch of things had been taken off the walls like and she was like oh I just moved here I've just left Albany I'm not living in Albany anymore I'm living here and also when I walked in she had had her computer on and she was listening to Keith

[00:30:13] I was like okay this is pretty weird but you know she was burning Palo Santo and she had you know lots of like nice art books and we had a conversation about Ear Hustle which is an awesome podcast that we both liked we talked about her parents and basically sat down on this couch and started talking about her point of view in the story

[00:30:38] and she told me pretty much what she had told my colleague my male colleague which is that it was all her idea nobody was a harem for Keith the branding was her idea she was in charge of everything and it was all just about getting strong

[00:30:53] and then I had heard later that some of the ceremonies took place in that apartment so I don't know why they wanted me to think she had left Albany or what the situation was I've never quite put that together like what exactly was going on in this apartment you know

[00:31:09] wait this is Brooklyn not Albany I mean I got branded in her apartment in Albany so I don't think any more branding sessions happened after we left as far as we know oh no no one other no one round did of the Mexican women under Jimena who I was branded with

[00:31:25] it's the answer of Vanessa's question I think you going to Albany in Clifton Park which you aptly recognized isn't a very communal place it's Keith just trooping from from Cabana to Cabana I don't think you going to that apartment would have made them look good I think going to Allison Max

[00:31:41] Brooklyn apartment might present a better optics right made her seem like independent right and successful right and successful yeah maybe I don't know PR wasn't their strength PR was very much not their strength

[00:31:57] so I mean I talked to Allison and then right after that I was supposed to go to Albany and then it was oh no well Keith isn't in Albany he's actually in Mexico so you need to go to Mexico but he's not running away from anything don't worry

[00:32:15] I was like what and then he's gonna go to Monterey no you need to go to Guadalajara I was like I'm going to Guadalajara Keith this is just bananas like that was but I had talked to Claire a bunch right and I think the role of Claire in all of this is very vexing and confusing to me because I will admit that when I was talking to her I did feel sympathetic to her

[00:32:45] and listening to the tapes now I hear so much more manipulation that I didn't pick up on at the time I feel sort of stupid you know because I mean look my perspective is everybody was a victim of Keith's right like I really truly do believe that and that some people were punished because of the

[00:33:06] verve that they took in being cruel and you know and the crimes and the crimes to other people you know and I think for Claire and again PR wasn't their strong suit and this is not what I think they intended like they really thought I was just a scribe you know that I was just going to write down what they were saying

[00:33:29] like that's I just don't even understand how they don't understand how journalism works like there's nobody who does that like that's not even like what happens to the National Enquirer like nobody does that that's why it's called journalism you know

[00:33:41] but by virtue of spending so many hours with Claire I think I did become naturally as humans do more sympathetic to her and worried for her and I felt like here's this like severely thin really messed up person you know who positioned herself also as a seeker who's also just trying to say like I'm trying to keep everything under control who I know was not

[00:34:11] involved in the branding and the sex crimes right like and that was the part where I was like well if she's not involved in the branding the sex crimes and she's trying to like keep this organization together and she's just got this you know sort of opaque curtain in front of her face where she can't see like the horror show that's right before her because she's so like brainwashed what do I do with this person right and I think that that was

[00:34:41] like something I didn't ever really resolve in the story that I still feel like wow I did I get taken by Claire because I definitely didn't get taken by Keith like the minute I met Keith I was like whoa hold up everybody this is a problem like this is a real problem guys

[00:35:04] I know all the red flags are there

[00:35:06] You know my father had just passed away also before I did this reporting and we talked about her died a lot because I was very knowledgeable that this was music worthy right and she told me about being I was the only child who was there with my father while he was dying you know and I never would have had that without nexium

[00:35:26] and we would you know spend every day together and we talked all the time and like you know he would come up with a big question every morning and say like what is the difference between vegetables and fruits you know what I mean like some Keith reneery question where I was like oh my god like I don't even think this is true like and I'm not putting this in the newspaper and

[00:35:48] I'm I don't know and I thought I really did think to myself like should I try to report this because there's obviously members of the Bronfman family that are around and then I was just I couldn't bring myself to do it I was just like I'm going to call like Hannah Bronfman and ask was Claire there when Edgar was dying and did he ask big questions at the

[00:36:08] breakfast table like I'm not going to do that like so I don't know what to say I mean I felt I feel the way that you feel Nippy like I feel like that was the con that was played on her but where does her personal responsibility click in right like he got her at such an incredibly deep level and you're saying it clicked in for the last 10 years of her doing all of that stuff

[00:36:33] and by the way I want to address what you said at the beginning that you feel sort of stupid for falling for it and I don't I was going to address that too

[00:36:39] I don't think I mean I hear you and I think we've all had different stages of feeling stupid trust me

[00:36:45] try 12 years 12 to 16 years or whatever you want to call it but I think it's important because and ultimately that's why you know we have no hard feelings for you and I want to get to tell you know share the whole backstory of what what happened on our end when this whole this whole thing happened because our audience

[00:37:02] we've never talked about it our audience doesn't know but I think ultimately the fact that you were con to a certain degree or at least brought along the path or taking the lifts to a certain degree was great proof great proof that these tools had a very strong effect

[00:37:21] and that's how course of control works and you were taking certain lifts with her and Keith even explained it I know you didn't buy him in the same way but Keith explained it to you in a way that like by the way we never heard him say that he had polyamorous relationships

[00:37:36] and that he first has a conversation he explained what we call the lifts he taught us those lifts and sales and he was telling you how he does lifts in relationships and sex first I do this yeah

[00:37:48] is that true is any of that true that's true I don't have one night stands I was like I think you have tons of one night stand I don't think that's true what I think is true is that from what I've heard from women who are with him who are now out that is what he does

[00:38:03] and I just want to say not to draw a parallel the person who referred to the article had buy-in and credibility so that's when it started for you the person who brought you the article too so that you can't underestimate that

[00:38:15] someone of credibility that respects and trust comes to you that's one positive thing being said so you're already in the journey yeah I think that was really critical

[00:38:24] it is critical nippy had his ex-girlfriend who he trusted I had Mark Vicente not only did I trust but I respected and had on a pedestal

[00:38:32] saying oh yeah check out this guy's the smartest guy in the world am I cool let's not Google him and just jump right in

[00:38:37] so we all have our ways right and people who don't have that type of leverage trust would look at this and go out not for me so it's not going to happen to everybody in the same way right

[00:38:51] hey there listener hope you're enjoying this episode and that you're remembering to hydrate stretch and unclench your jaws sometimes listening to conversations about heavy topics can really make you tighten up you know and remember a little bit culty loves you

[00:39:07] also come hang out with us on patreon after you finish this episode it's fun over there fun is good and now here's a brief message from our sponsors meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge

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[00:39:39] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga

[00:39:56] maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep and that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature

[00:40:08] hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it

[00:40:21] and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it

[00:40:26] it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people

[00:40:36] I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule

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[00:41:11] I think the other thing is this like you know obviously I was reading the Frank report and that was so like so visceral and just repulsive and all of this stuff that was happening and in the end Frank was doing pretty good work right

[00:41:26] but for me I probably should have from where I was sitting I probably should have been looking more at the Albany Times Union

[00:41:34] right and been more like looking at their reporting which I didn't you know know who Frank was obviously they talked about Frank a lot as well right and it was like Sarah the Frank report Sarah Frank report like those were there too main you know issues

[00:41:52] so I think for me I was like okay well I have somebody I trust who's telling me these people are on the level

[00:41:58] and then I have the Frank report which seems like you know this almost seems like Grimm's fairy tale right like it seems so over the top where is the you know and if you look at Barry's first article it's written very very carefully

[00:42:13] because obviously he's very nervous about what everybody should be you know and look journalists don't use the words I'm nervous about lawsuits but everybody is you know and so he was careful very very data based very database is next in turn

[00:42:28] exactly which is exactly what you need to do when you're going up against you know an organization with unlimited funds and one that's this secretive and you have to be completely without approach but yeah I think you know I don't think putting Claire with me was a tactic

[00:42:48] although I don't know I can't imagine that Keith wanted me to spend this much time with Claire because he was new that Claire was like no fun to be around

[00:43:00] like I'm sure he was like I would rather have had her hang out with Nancy and Lauren and be totally like in their thrall but he had to go to Mexico

[00:43:09] which was by the way for a visa for Mariana that was the reason and I was like okay for a visa for Mariana and then when I sat down with Keith he said well it's because we came here for Christmas vacation we're going we're just going on vacation

[00:43:21] so there were sort of like shifting reasons he never went on vacation yeah well I think you got sent Claire because she's the most experienced

[00:43:30] oh you think so okay and lying for the company right okay but don't you think Nancy and Nancy and Lauren are much more socially astute yeah they totally are and it was also like empowering Claire because she was the head of the legal department right

[00:43:44] even the head of the PR department or whatever you want to call it I had no question in my mind that she was in Mexico because he couldn't have her saying away from him and you know maybe lose her funds I mean definitely

[00:43:58] yeah that's his lifeline I think at that point yeah did you know when you when you saw Mariana that baby was Kmar their baby oh I knew it was their baby yeah they said okay they said it was it was their baby

[00:44:10] but I didn't know who Mariana was you know I didn't know that was one of the three sisters or baby oh so you found out later who Mariana was didn't have any idea yeah oh my god if you had known would you have said

[00:44:22] how does it feel to share your lover with your sisters well okay like so I mean I wasn't really allowed to talk to Mariana

[00:44:31] I was like hi hi hi and she left right you know I think the turn for me was the three sisters learning about the three sisters in the room

[00:44:41] and the abortions even there was so much more detail in the trial than at least I knew I don't know if you all knew no look you kidding me like Vanessa we thought we might be the ones in trouble right at one point

[00:44:54] right right right that's how little we knew about what we were holding it was is traumatic for a viewer like we were spectators once this thing got handed off and we were like like we thought we were in like a cult that was like weird to find out

[00:45:08] the level of abuse right our embarrassment took it ten times then right because I was embarrassed like I got conned and all that stuff

[00:45:15] and then I was like and that was going on it got more embarrassing right but it's also what you said what I've heard you say on your show

[00:45:23] which is they made big decisions for us about what our lives the shape of our lives while keeping Keith's private life you know secret

[00:45:33] that's my delineation like I just kind of like I have a hard time getting past like I gave up valuable years based on your lie

[00:45:40] and your capacity to lie to me like that's just a hard one for me to on right maybe I will I mean I think that that is

[00:45:46] I mean there's so many things that I'm you know I can't even imagine how hard it is to get over all this and you guys have done amazing work

[00:45:53] like for yourselves and for other people like it's pretty unbelievable like I would not have seen all this happening right like I

[00:46:01] would just you know I thought I mean I think everybody sort of thought like this is a you know this is a story that is going to come

[00:46:09] and go and when I talk about it now I'm like no this is this is David Karatch like this is a story that will stay with us as a culture

[00:46:18] for 20 years 40 years 60 years people are going to be retelling it because it's one of the most like mind boggling and extraordinary situations

[00:46:29] of coercive control and I think that it's like when I was sitting with my editor and we were working on the piece because I would bring little tidbits back to him

[00:46:36] and he would be like well that sounds bad but maybe not so bad that sounds bad but maybe not so bad and when we I remember so vividly when we sat down

[00:46:43] and we were putting everything together he was like okay so this guy should burn in how it's every little thing like put together it's like tiny dots that are making

[00:46:53] like a pointillist painting or something where everything was like oh like just a little let me take a little here let me take a little here

[00:47:01] and yeah I just feel like the you know the thing is of course he's not attractive like Karash and that was almost like an incredible part of what was you know for me

[00:47:12] not being you know I was really taken by the idea of like well here's all these dynamic women who have choices in life and they've chosen to be part of an axiom

[00:47:23] and I thought that was really interesting and worth figuring out but when I met Keith I was like okay this isn't even an attractive person or a plain person

[00:47:32] this person is giving out like a repulsive charge right like he's just repulsing me like I want to get away from him you know

[00:47:41] which I had too as you probably know right as you said and like so for me there was just like a very you know again I would just say that

[00:47:50] so as you both know I didn't make a lot of calls to defectors at the beginning because as I said I felt like let me get the get

[00:47:59] which is next to me I'm in our circle and then I'll move outwards right because I can't have a bunch of things on the Frank report right that I'm doing this

[00:48:09] I can't have it twist around like well Vanessa who is a real journalist is doing this or she might do this and this

[00:48:17] I didn't realize like the degree to which they were not really going to open up to me but I knew enough to know that's always a bad idea right you've got

[00:48:26] got somebody who's ready to put that stuff up there I thought this is how naive I was I thought well I'm going to go and I'm going to ask what next seems all about

[00:48:36] and what's ESP and what's XO SO and how does this all work and what are these different companies and what is the philosophy and why do you like

[00:48:45] I ran and these people are going to explain it all to me and and then I'll understand that is the best way to engage people right and not going to engage them by saying

[00:48:55] you know why did you brand women with your initials saying that they weren't your initials I'm going to try to engage them about the philosophy which if all of these people are into it

[00:49:04] must be fascinating right and so I got like Keith's horrible books like the whatever they are these horrible yes these hard there were two

[00:49:15] and I sat there you know an entire weekend reading these books and I was like whoa okay well I don't know this doesn't make any sense but I'll keep going

[00:49:25] and I kept asking about what they set me up with Eduardo and I sat down with Eduardo for a couple of hours at Aubameen Pan on Montague Street and he explained

[00:49:37] or Joralamin and he explained everything to me how everything worked I did not follow it read the books I did not follow it and I sat down with Keith

[00:49:45] wait what was your impression of Eduardo I mean look when I met Eduardo and I met Michelle and they both seemed like okay alright like you know I was more like

[00:49:57] okay Nancy Lauren Allison Claire Sarah I can tell something really serious is going on here Eduardo and Michelle did a very good job of just like staying on point being like

[00:50:10] I believe in this technology I've had great things happen for my life I mean I was a little like Eduardo you're not doing very well professionally you know he was very angry at Nipi right

[00:50:22] which I was like at this point I was sort of just like pushing all that to the side because I was like I want to just figure out what's happening here I don't need to hear anymore like vengeance tales you know

[00:50:32] but they both like did a pretty good job I mean I interviewed Michelle in a cafe in Harlem and Nikki was there like listening to the whole thing it was so is really it's strange

[00:50:47] but they felt to me like people who I'd interviewed with landmark forum do you know what I mean they were obviously trying to do the like we're just normal young professionals who have found something in this

[00:50:59] so you interviewed people that are peripheral which you probably didn't know at that time that those two people in particular weren't in our circle and had spent various yeah they were peripheral

[00:51:11] I didn't have a sense that they were ponds in a new game of chess do you know what I mean like I didn't understand that at one point there were 500 ponds and now there were like five ponds left and we were playing a new game of chess

[00:51:25] I just thought these are some followers that they want me to meet but in any case the point I was driving towards is when I went to Mexico I was still in the place of like okay nobody can explain what this is

[00:51:39] I will sit down with Keith and he will wow me with his ideology and I'll have this incredible scene of him tripping the light fantastic by telling me all of these things that he believes in the world and how you shouldn't be a victim in your own mind

[00:51:55] and like blah blah blah blah blah whatever it was he was going to say that I had enough of a sense that the victim thing was very very central right and he like could not have flubbed that worse

[00:52:07] and I don't know if it's he had stage fright or like what exactly happened or he just thought like he could word salad me for hours at a time and I would just be fine with it but there are hours of Keith and they're almost like

[00:52:27] like unlistenable because it's just he doesn't make any sense you know and I still was like okay well so this is Oz right this is the guy behind the curtain but there must still be something that's drawn these people in and I think

[00:52:45] I have thought to myself did he try to be more bumbling because he thought that that would be a good tactic because then I would think he couldn't possibly be behind all right

[00:52:56] possibly but I think really what it is is like I had gone through a lot of the old litigation I had a lot of questions about what had happened with the next EM 9 you know I was asking things like do you think it's more all incorrect to have gone after these people with legal threats

[00:53:15] and things that he like didn't have on his dance card of what he thought he was going to be asked about that probably threw him I think it's probably a big combination of all of those things were you interviewing him in front of other people

[00:53:31] there was a guy in the room who was sitting like further away like maybe in like a living room and we were in a dining room and then Claire sort of like maybe came in and out but I don't think she was really sitting there

[00:53:45] do you know who the guy was well the guy was the guy who Claire was working with to you know get her thread of the story out yeah a publicist

[00:53:54] or the publicist okay yeah who shall remain nameless I asked only because I think the wheels fell off when Pam wasn't around I think I think Pam was the manager

[00:54:04] let's let him know who Pam is first because if people don't know Pam was well I thought Pam was his assistant the whole time I was there and then I found out around the time that she died that it was his life partner

[00:54:13] they'd been together since she was like late teen early twenties right now at the ski when he poached her from the ski slopes in her rich little ski bunny outfit and she was like the Gillian Maxwell of the group

[00:54:28] she procured women for him yeah and then she died of cancer suddenly right and she died of cancer suddenly I did know Barbara died of cancer and I did know she died of cancer and I knew they were both his girlfriends

[00:54:41] and I definitely thought oh god like he has you know the code to fix cancer or whatever like this is insane he's telling me that like these women didn't get you know full treatment

[00:54:52] because my father had had cancer so basically I would say in terms of like a lift and I would be fascinated to know if they had researched me and found my father's obituary if they knew that he had died

[00:55:06] like recently you know but in terms of that like talking about Pam and Pam's death was a big part of what they wanted to talk to me about right

[00:55:20] and it was you know Pam was my life partner I loved her she was sort of like mother to everybody right Claire telling me like how much she loved Pam everybody had these little Tiffany you know heart necklaces that Claire had bought for them I guess when they went to Fiji

[00:55:40] and I can't remember if she said that was right before Claire up before Pam died or right before she was diagnosed but they had gone there for a trip and I remember her and she was crying about Pam I mean Keith was crying about Pam

[00:55:53] and I you know watched the video tribute to Pam that they made in Albany like you know once I went to Albany which I'm sure you guys have heard about or saw

[00:56:04] we were there oh so this was another so this was the same tribute that they just played again for my benefit probably or something at the coach summit yeah I'm assuming because we were we were still in when she died and we went to her very bizarre funeral

[00:56:17] okay and they played that video okay assuming it's the same one like her modeling photos and like

[00:56:22] yeah I was just like a long felt like a memorial video and so you know I again like having met all these women who seemed sort of like nice ish she was like well Pam seems nice ish you know and I mean I would say that maybe that is what I thought

[00:56:41] is that okay maybe what happened here is when Pam died Keith had to come up with a way to draw everybody closer to him make people more dependent on him and this is how he formulated DOS in his mind because he just flipped out about like controlling women and not having anybody else leave

[00:57:04] and this was his like demented like horrific notion from that you know

[00:57:11] and we've spoken to people who laughed way before like who laughed in like 2009 10 and she said that and she was part of the harem whose friends with us now she left a long time ago she slipped away like Nancy said

[00:57:24] you can leave and just make it not bad because you know people did that was true people did leave if they didn't make a stink they'd be left alone and she said that when she heard about what DOS was she said well that's just what life was like

[00:57:38] it was the same thing he just wasn't called DOS right okay yeah I've heard that yeah he took photos of the right he enslaved every he's not trying to empower he's trying to enslave yeah and so his harem was basically DOS and then he formalized it into a thing and made it more of ritualistic

[00:57:54] and systematized right I think your assessment was pretty bang on just missing that piece which obviously they weren't going to tell you

[00:58:13] okay we're not going to summarize that too much and just say stay tuned for next week stay tuned it's the intermission right this is the part where you get up you get to the bathroom go to the gym maybe go for a walk or take a break listen to infamous

[00:58:26] sure all that stuff and also we've been reading our best and worst reviews over on patreon please do write us a review it really does help it's mostly made a hate I mean I didn't want to say that but you guys are awesome have a good day bye

[00:58:42] I hope you like this episode let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week special episodes just for patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of the valve

[00:59:14] and if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch or list of our most recommended cult recovery resources visit our website at a littlebitculti.com

[00:59:27] and for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called Scarred the true story of how I escaped nexium the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores

[00:59:38] a little bit culty is a talkhouse podcast and a trace 120 production we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy

[00:59:52] we're edited mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of citizens of sound and our amazing theme song cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening