Streaming Heroes: Sarma Melngailis, Tom Krumins & Ruthy Heiler

[00:00:00] I'm going places, but I don't need to travel far to get there. I enrolled in fall classes at the new SLCC Harriman Campus right here in my neighborhood. And I'll save big on tuition. See you this fall. Enroll today at slcc.edu slash Harriman.

[00:00:15] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization,

[00:00:28] business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:51] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:01] Like, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. Oops. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty. Hey everyone.

[00:01:18] It's time for another ALBC summer remix. You're gonna love them. This one's close to our hearts. It involves people who took a big risk by speaking publicly about their culty experiences in a docuseries of some type.

[00:01:44] It's like what we did for HBO's The Vow, the series that took on NXIVM and Keith Raniere. We really like talking to these people because obviously there's much more than what's revealed in the docuseries.

[00:01:54] So we'll get into the nitty gritty of what it's like behind the scenes and what the docuseries may have missed out. Think of it as cults unplugged. This week, we'll revisit our conversation with Sarma Mangalis from the sensational Netflix series Bad Vegan.

[00:02:07] We'll also talk with Tom Crummins, one of the whistleblowers from Scouts Honor, the secret files of the Boy Scouts of America. And of course, we'll bring back Ruthie Heiler to speak about her experiences in the independent

[00:02:18] fundamentalist Baptist movement from the Investigation Discovery series, Let Us Pray, A Ministry of Scandals. These are some of our favorite episodes, so we hope you'll enjoy them. Let's start with Sarma. Just before Netflix premiered its sensational docuseries Bad Vegan, Sarma Mangalis spoke

[00:02:34] exclusively with ALBC about all the shit she endured with the culty con man. Sarma hoped that Netflix would shed a light on the confounding circumstances that led to the demise of her brand, One Lucky Duck, and her restaurant, Pure Food & Wine.

[00:02:46] But when Netflix came calling, it was not pretty. So we let Sarma set the record straight. Let's hear what she had to say. I was just happy to be able to defend you because you shouldn't have to.

[00:03:10] When people heard that we interviewed you and then I could refer people to it and then go, oh, that really changes things. I felt very good about that. And I was, you know, on your behalf, was really pissed at the people who made it.

[00:03:22] And we don't have to talk about it anymore. I just feel it is a good starting point to talk about, like, how do these things get made? How do they fucking capitalize? Like, how much money did they make? And you're just sitting there as this duck.

[00:03:35] They made a ton of my money. And I had been given the impression that at the end of the show, they were going to put in the thing about how, you know, I'd gotten this amount of money to repay my employees, which was the tiniest amount.

[00:03:46] That was the smallest amount of debt that I owed. But that was like what weighed the heaviest. My employees had been repaid. But that's it. I didn't make money from it. But I know, you know, the filmmakers made millions. Like they made a ton of money.

[00:03:58] I don't want to be like, whoa is me. But on the other side of it, like I was like alone with this fire hose in my face of a mixture of support and vitriol.

[00:04:07] So it's like, you know, getting hugged and punched at the same time, like nonstop all day long. And it was overwhelming. It was exhausting. I was totally alone with it and trying to figure out like what do I do? What do I do?

[00:04:20] Do I, you know, like Dr. Phil is trying to get me to go on? Do I? No, I'm not going to do that. It was a really, really overwhelming time. And it was really frustrating to have to be on the defense.

[00:04:30] The contrast is, for example, one of the situations that I think most mirrors my own, which people wouldn't expect, is the Sarah Lawrence story, Stolen Youth. That guy, the Larry Ray, he seems the most similar to, you know, Mr. Fox. I call him Mr. Fox.

[00:04:48] That guy, his psychology, what he did, his own, you know, the fact that he sort of also seems to be delusional himself. It's like a little unclear. So much about that situation resonated so deeply for me.

[00:05:00] And so listening to, you know, I know you guys interviewed, I think Daniel and they were interviewed again recently by Dr. Rahmani and listening to those, I was a bit floored

[00:05:10] by it in a way where I just felt really sad because listening to it was so hard because so much of Felicia's experience resonated so many things. And I'm listening to it and I'm listening to Dr. Rahmani, like at every turn validating

[00:05:26] everything, you know, like, yes, because he was this and yes, kind of validating it in this way that I was like, oh, that's really comforting. I just got really sad because I was like, I want that.

[00:05:36] Anybody kind of on the other side of this, if you're going to go out into the media, like yeah, you want to be really careful where you're going. I was going to say it's symptomatic of the problem and why I think it's important you tell your story.

[00:05:47] You unfortunately ran into people that claimed they were going to be sensitive to your story, but didn't have really the capacity to be sensitive to your story because they don't really see it that way. One of our people that did ours, that directed ours took our training.

[00:06:00] So had firsthand experience of like the con. You know, if you look at the platform, even though this was made and then it was sold, I think they knew all along it was going to go to Netflix because the director has a relationship with them.

[00:06:12] So I think it was pretty clear that's where it was going. But more and more, I'm seeing that there's this understanding that Netflix airs a certain type of show, which is maybe more like kind of flashy glamour, like entertainment oriented.

[00:06:24] And that's why I make the argument in what I wrote online that there should be another category called docutainment. It should be another category versus documentary. You know, a straight up documentary, you shouldn't be intentionally confusing people. You shouldn't be intentionally misleading people.

[00:06:38] You shouldn't have people come to the end of it and like half the people think one thing and half the people think other thing if it's based on fact. So whereas, you know, other places like HBO and Hulu, their documentaries seem more like serious documentaries.

[00:06:51] And I mean, I watched The Vow and it was certainly a very different tone. We're in good hands with HBO, Nancy Abrams and Lisa Heller. When we were going through this and there was a point where Keith was arrested, he was going to go to jail.

[00:07:04] I was like, why would I be in this anymore? Like, you know, my punch is thrown. I want to get my wife and family out of this. And I went to them and was kind of like, hey, look, I don't know if I really want to be

[00:07:12] in this anymore. But I didn't need to be. And they were great. I mean, they clearly understood it. They had done Neverland, I think, and everything they've done is pretty good.

[00:07:20] But Sarma, like that was one of the questions for you is what advice do you have to people who've come out of something like this and helping them figure out, like, do they want to be public? What have you learned?

[00:07:31] How would you suggest people go about doing something like you did? What questions would you ask differently now that you know what you know? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question.

[00:07:38] One of the things that sort of became clear to me that I feel better about is this clear understanding for myself that like, what happened was not my fault. Right. But at the same time, there are things about me that made it possible. Right.

[00:07:53] Which is a very different thing. And the thing is, the thing to understand is like, most of those things are generally good characteristics. Right. It's like what makes you vulnerable is you have a tendency to believe people. You have a tendency to believe people are good.

[00:08:06] You trust too easily, a variety of things. But part of that trusting too easily, that doesn't change. It carries over. So I trusted that the film would be done with integrity or, you know, the show or whatever you want to call it.

[00:08:20] So, you know, I think really moving forward carefully in that, I would be really wary of, I mean, I guess you'd want to look at somebody's past projects and what they've done before and what their own experiences are and what the intention is and get as much

[00:08:33] in writing as possible, I suppose. There has been a lot of talk about like maybe doing a series where, you know, there's sort of a bunch of stories and each one is like an episode or something.

[00:08:43] And I would potentially be involved in something like that, in which case I would trust me because I've been through it, you know? So if there was somebody there who's like an advocate for you, who's been through it, right?

[00:08:54] So imagine if like in Bad Vegan, you, Sarah and Nippy were like co-producers, you know, you would be all over it, right? And so, you know, any situation where you're not dealing with people who don't understand what you've been through, I think is important.

[00:09:08] And even if they're well-meaning, well-intentioned people, I mean, one way or another, just the more protections you can get, the better. And I think also the more time that goes by, the more you understand.

[00:09:18] So had production started on it, you know, now versus then, my interviews would have been different because there's so many times where in Bad Vegan where I'm asked questions, there's things where I probably still wouldn't know, but instead of kind of going, I don't

[00:09:31] remember and then he put in the film like me going, I don't remember, but in a way that almost makes it seem like I'm lying as a, you know, like, I think those things were kind of interspersed in there.

[00:09:42] I would argue intentionally such that if your lens was to like, maybe not trust me and not believe me, then you're like, you're getting confirmation for that. You're reinforced. Right. By these like bits and pieces included where I kind of go like, I don't remember.

[00:09:57] There's even parts where like he asks me questions where I don't want to answer it because to answer it honestly, I would have had to say something bad about somebody else and I didn't want to.

[00:10:05] And so I sort of hesitate, you know, all these little things that make it look like I'm lying or can't be trusted. I think you guys talked about this too is like, it's hard.

[00:10:15] It's not very safe to go out and do a bunch of interviews, like right on the other side of this stuff when you're still kind of in that shocked, traumatized state, which really, I think as you guys know, it takes a while to wear off.

[00:10:26] And you don't even realize it. Right. You don't even realize it when you're in it, right? You're like, oh, I'm out. I'm fine. I got to tell the story. I was like, oh, I'm not comfortable about all this shit.

[00:10:34] And then like later you're like, oh my God, I wasn't even in my body. There are periods of time where I was like, all right, you know, I'm fine. Like now I'm fine. But I felt very much more kind of confident and felt like I'd gotten past it.

[00:10:45] And then I realized, no, no, no, I have not at all gotten past this. And there's, there's like more work to do. There's more healing to do. Yeah, you're right. Darren, I should be producing on these things. I'll just be consulted. You need someone who believes you unequivocally.

[00:10:57] Well, and also you need somebody there because I was talking to a producer about this and I was like, my involvement would be useful because I could intervene if you know, the subject was being asked questions that were like the equivalent of like, well, why didn't you leave?

[00:11:11] You know, it's like, no, no, you can't ask that question. You know, like, like I could be, you know, like an advocate for that person. I called those, were you wearing a short skirt questions? Yes. Oh, that's so good. Yes. Oh my God. You know what?

[00:11:25] You can fuck right off. That's what I would say. Exactly. Exactly. You tell them Sarah. One of the things that chaps my ass, and I'm sure you've thought about this, but just for our audience to really think about what it means to go through something like what you

[00:11:39] went through, to be betrayed by somebody, to be manipulated, coerced, betrayed, used, and then to do it all over again with a fucking production company. I mean, the level of horrific, I'm so mad at them. I'm not even Netflix. I don't even, it's not Netflix really.

[00:11:56] It's the people, right? Yeah. I mean, Netflix didn't make it, but the way Netflix marketed it and really- Right. That's true. I had very little involvement with them, just a little bit with sort of the kind of PR side of it, but I was all ready to cooperate.

[00:12:10] I felt like on the other side of it, I'd be out there doing promotion for it and talking about all the productive things and talking about how it's misunderstood in the criminal justice system and being sort of an advocate.

[00:12:22] And instead it was like, they knew what was going to happen. So it was like, just cut off and then I'm on my own.