Summer Bonus: Sarah and Nippy Chat with the IndoctriNation Podcast

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_08]: This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder skiing legacy. To independent spirit.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_08]: North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_10]: The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm also your host Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it?

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_05]: We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail in a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit Culty, we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_05]: We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissist.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at ALittleBitCulty.com

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, another summer bonus episode.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We just, we couldn't resist. We couldn't resist. Actually, truthfully we got such a great response from the, you know what I'm saying? Sick boy.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people are blaming me for having it in their head. I love.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sorry about that. I love.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But what we realized was that it seems like you guys were enjoying hearing us answer the questions and we thought we'd do it again with a different podcast for your bonus. A little present for you.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_05]: It also I think addresses a lot of the ask me anything questions which we're still going to get to but it gives you a broader palette of what it is to be Sarah and Nippy.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there's so many people out there that are like, I really was looking to have a broader palette of both Sarah and Nippy and now I have it.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_05]: They're sipping their tea.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Why tea?

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sipping an iced matcha with organic farmers market honey.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_05]: There's our demographic.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Non GMO oat milk.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Stay in your lane.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do another podcast about health and wellness. I think it's going to be called.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_05]: You'll probably be the thousandth person to do that.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be called Unsolicited Advice with Sarah Edmondson and I'm just going to give everybody all the advice I always want to give people but I can't.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Something to start a podcast so I can say it like, you know how I think people should live. Anyway.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So but the only thing I will say about this episode is that there might be some repetition in the beginning because both sick boy and Rachel Bernstein our next guest asked for the elevator pitch of our stories.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So there may be some redundancy there.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_05]: That's okay. I mean, I think there's enough variance in it for people to get a lot out of both and they both asked distinct really good questions.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's a summer. We don't need to bury him in a cold talk.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a summary.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_05]: They're sipping tea and matcha and lemonade.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. They just want to hear the broad spectrum or whatever you said.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so this week we're bringing you another summer bonus courtesy of Rachel Bernstein and her indoctrination podcast, a weekly show that's all about cults manipulators and how to protect yourself from systems of control.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I guess you can kind of call her the OG cult podcaster.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Right. She uses the platform to interview survivors case in point intervention experts and various educators to help raise awareness about the dangers of narcissism.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And under influence.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You can listen to her awesome podcast indoctrination on Spotify, Apple Music, SoundCloud, Stitcher and many more podcasteries.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Like we said the conversation in this episode similar to sick boys.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_05]: So not exactly because Rachel is actually a licensed marriage and family therapist and has over 30 years of experience in things like family and relationship counseling, helping children and parents in need of emotional support and coping skills and cult intervention and reacclamation.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And we just like chatting with her because she's a real hero in our field.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard her name many times and cross paths in different ways in the cult space, but to actually have this type of meaningful chat was very full circle.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a universe conspiring, right Sarah?

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: The universe conspired to bring Rachel and us together.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: She brings a real wisdom and speaking of full pallets, Rachel has one.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And we're going to have her on soon to turn the tables and ask her a bunch of questions.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_05]: So let us know if you have questions for her.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Until then, we hope you enjoy the summer bonus bonus episode with Rachel Bernstein on her too legit to quit indoctrination podcast. Enjoy.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I am so happy to have Sarah and Nipia on this show.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I know that you have your own show and you've told your story and Sarah, you have a book and you've been out there in the world letting people know about this.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_06]: What I find so interesting and I know we're going to go a lot of different directions with this conversation is that while it's become sort of our life in that we talk about it a lot, there's still some people who think nexium is a pill that you take for acid reflux.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's their association, which I understand because it is.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's sort of how it is to be in this world that is sort of the subculture of the world.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_06]: But I wanted first to start with not only thanking you for what you're doing, but having you have a chance to introduce yourselves to people who haven't really gotten to know you on this personal level.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And I so appreciate being able to have you on the show and I know at some point I will be on yours as well.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So Sarah, if you want to introduce yourself, that'd be great.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this is something that is, this is so full circle.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think when we decided to have a podcast, we didn't really look to see what other podcasts were already out there making cult content.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we found you afterwards and there's obviously so much overlap and it's so great to be aligned with somebody who's so passionate about similar things.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for having us.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, such a long story to try to condense it into a little an elevator pitch slash sound bite.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The long and short of it is that my Vancouver born and raised there.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was an aspiring actress in my twenties, child of two parents who were in the mental health profession.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was at a time in my life when I was looking for more, more meaning, more community, more fulfillment.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't really feel like acting was the thing that was my necessarily my purpose.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I always felt that I like my parents always taught me to make the world a better place, have a legacy, all those things that I think are important.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And I happened to meet a filmmaker, Mark Fasante, who made What the Bleep Do We Know, who introduced me to a program.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to work with him. The program sounded amazing.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It was all about humanitarians learning to again make the world a better place by evolving our awareness and our consciousness and working through our patterns and our quote, but air quotes on this are shit so that we could be optimal in the world.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And it seemed amazing.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I never researched it.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I jumped in. I took a five day training, which I had many red flags about, which I didn't know were red flags at the time and I ignored them and did that for about 12 years.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Had some incredible experiences, some really wonderful learnings and incredible adventures, I'll say.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And also a lot of things that I didn't understand when I was looking at over the years until things got undeniably bad.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And when one of my incredible adventures, just a backtrack for a second, was meeting my husband who's here with us today, Nippy, and we had a child.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And that helped me kind of reconnect with who I am and my values a little bit separate from the organization.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: At that point, they tried to draw me in further and have me get more committed, which eventually led to the leader starting a secret organization for women where he was branding women with his initials.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And that ultimately it wasn't what woke me up.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was realizing that the symbol was not what I'd been told it was but was his fact as initials.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: All of these things are very complicated and hard to explain, but the essence of it is that it woke us up.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Nippy and I decided to leave eventually to become whistleblowers, go on the cover of The New York Times.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The FBI got involved from that point and now the leader's in jail for 120 years.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the best summary I can say.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a good one.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And there, you know, when someone said that he was in jail for 120 years, I remember just spontaneously saying couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_05]: He also has five years probation.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, five years.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_05]: That's part of the sentence.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I love that.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_06]: So after he's about 200 years old or so, then he gets five years probation.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_06]: That's good.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_06]: That'll be good.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted to say something before Nippy you introduce yourself.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_06]: There's something so interesting about not picking up on the red flags that I want to make sure that we talk about.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And I know we're also going to focus in on being a couple within a group like this because that's something I haven't talked a lot about on this show yet.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And people haven't had a chance to talk about, but how couples are treated and how couples are kind of sometimes separated emotionally or physically or in terms of being able to trust each other and lean on each other.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think sometimes it's because they strengthen each other to make a change.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, I definitely want to talk about that.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And also in terms of being parents and the education that you want to make sure your kids have because of your experiences.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_06]: The other thing too is in terms of the red flags, because I've now been doing this well.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes that I will hear something and I know it doesn't sound very professional, but I just go, ew, I haven't you.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And the ew, I remember learning about V week and this whole celebration in honor of Vanguard of the leader.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought, wow, I can't imagine.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't even like when people sing happy birthday to me in a restaurant.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't like all eyes on me, but to have a whole week for my birthday.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow, that was an ew to me.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, there are a lot of these moments where you think someone just has is this insatiable, needy kind of pit.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And you just have to keep filling the coffers of their ego over and over again.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's fascinating to me and so sad.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And for so many, this is the personality they have to deal with.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes they've been exposed to for the first time when they get involved in a group like this, that they don't know what they're dealing with.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that should have been a red flag for sure.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it was also sold as a corporate retreat.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Can I share something before we introduce Nipi?

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Because when we just talking about that, how like when we were in it, had you said that to us, my defense would have been what we were told, which is, oh, Keith didn't even ask for this.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We decided to do this because he's in renunciate.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: He hasn't received gifts.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: His only request for his birthdays that people are kind to each other and people live joyfully.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And why not do that for 10 days versus one day for his birthday?

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is our gift to him.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: He never asked because he's so humble, right?

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be pitched as like this is our corporate retreat where we give him a gift to say thank you for what he's given us.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's even even grosser than you thought.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it was sex week for him.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Sex 10 days.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's my take on it.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Right?

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_06]: It very often happens and I'm putting it.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I would like to actually introduce myself.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, but anyway, what I do think is interesting too is that if you can have things turned around where you think it's for people's benefit or if you can have things turned around where you think it was your decision, then a lot of people get away with a lot of things.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_06]: If they can reframe it as being quite the opposite in terms of intention and whose idea it was and who it's for.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And so that's true in social realms.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true in politics.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true in government.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true in cults, true in relationships actually.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just, you know, cults don't invent these things.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_06]: They just use, they utilize what's already being used, but it is true if you can make people feel like they're in this sort of benevolent way wanting to give back or wanting to give, then they won't see it.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_05]: People tend to curb your skepticism at that point.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And people who are good at this, who have honed their skills will know what language to use to offer you so that that's your interpretation and then you're open to doing it and thinking it's perfectly innocent and kind of you to do it.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_06]: So Nippy, introduce yourself.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's Anthony Nippert Ames. Nippert is my mom's maiden name. It's Nippert with a T at the end and my parents thought it'd be cool to call me Nippy.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Jury's still out on that.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_05]: My journey into this whole thing was I had a former girlfriend.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I ran into a party in New York and she told me about it.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And I literally said to her, I'm not doing your cult after a year.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_05]: She was just like, this would be you.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_05]: She knew she knew the meat hooks for me because I always had books on leaders and and I played quarterback in college.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I was always reading about how to be the best and I had books on Kennedy, Martin Luther King and all that stuff.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think she saw me as a good candidate for wanting to be better and she was right.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And finally she told me that her parents had done it.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I know her parents since I was 15.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought kind of thought how bad could it be?

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's funny.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I had read a book by this guy named Bill Bennett.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_05]: It was called The Death of Outrage.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was really honing in on how people just didn't have a problem with Bill Clinton's behavior.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Remember those days?

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I was just, you know, I was kind of young and I was like, you know what?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_05]: This is actually a good point.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I had kind of fertile ground, had those kinds of things going on.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So it was a good cocktail of like, hey, let's see if there's something else out there.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Now I went there and was immediately turned off by Vanguard, Sashes and Bowie.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_05]: And those were always things I never really kind of got over,

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_05]: but it was kind of like, it's something about the organization I don't like,

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_05]: but there's a lot of good here.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And I stayed involved with the organization from 2001 to 2003 peripherally.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I was going back from New York City to Albany to take classes on weekends.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And finally I just kind of felt like there's no infrastructure for these ideas to catch on

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_05]: because there's no one here that's really a strong leader to get it going

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_05]: and it felt kind of like a ragtag organization.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I decided to not be a coach anymore,

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_05]: but I was still friends with like people in the organization.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't a volatile breakup and I would maybe talk to some people peripherally here and there

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and that took a training again in like 2005.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I was involved with the organization, I would just take a training

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_05]: like anyone would have like a goals program.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And then Mark Vicente, same filmmaker came out to LA because I was living in LA.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_05]: I got cast in something out there and he came out and said that he had a film project for me to work on.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_05]: They flew me back to New York, took my car, paid for everything,

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_05]: paid for my housing for a while to go shoot this film and it ended up never happening.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Tell them about the helicopter.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean there's a whole pre-production where I got on a helicopter, flew down the Hudson,

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_05]: went to Bergdorf Goodman, got in pre-production for a suit, wardrobe, all that stuff.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_05]: So I didn't really have any reason to not think it was going to happen.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_05]: So anyway, these are all the things that kind of like got me back into the organization.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Now understand, I came back into the organization still with some arms length problems with it

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_05]: but not to the point where I was going to throw the whole thing out.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Also, I was somewhat eating my words because I didn't think the organization was a grown

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and in the three years that it had grown considerably, it had grown to Mexico City, Monterey

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_05]: and so it had a lot more credible people and people who are out in the world doing things.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_05]: So I was kind of impressed with the growth that had happened in the three years that I was gone

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: and going this merges two worlds, personal professional development

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_05]: and had a lot of actors and directors in it.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So I thought, wow, this thing is actually working.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_05]: This is a train that I might want to get back on and slowly over time as the film didn't happen

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I got involved in New York City Center and I started running that and that was about 2009-2010.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So there was a lot of positive things but a reason I say that I had those boundaries at first

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_05]: is I think that's one of the things that allowed Sarah and I to kind of have a wall around us

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: because I think I kind of communicated in a certain degree to the inner circle

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_05]: leaving the fuck alone on a subtext kind of thing

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_05]: and I think that was one of the things that allowed us to make the pivot when we did

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_05]: when the abuse was washed up in our personal lives

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and so while there had been some rumblings about Keith's behavior in the past

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_05]: all those things became true once I experienced it.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a pretty easy pivot for us to leave when that happened

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_05]: and everything is documented subsequently.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So interesting, you know, you bring up some interesting points

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_06]: about what leads someone into an organization

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and what causes them to stay

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_06]: and often it is the connection to people

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_06]: the ideas that you like that you think are going to be practically useful

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_06]: people also like to be challenged

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and so you get into this mode of wanting to learn

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_06]: and wanting to show what you've learned

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_06]: the idea though that from the start things bothered you

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_06]: is really important

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and that you were able to specify to a certain degree

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_06]: the things like the vanguard

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and you said the sashes and the bowing.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_06]: So the sashes are so interesting

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_06]: because it is this way of needing to prove yourself in a public way

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and moving up the levels

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and what I've noticed from, you know, cult after cult

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_06]: there are always levels

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_06]: and then when you reach the top of the level

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_06]: then they add more levels

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_06]: than there's an inner circle

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_06]: then there is another group

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_06]: then there is something else you're supposed to achieve

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_06]: or be chosen for

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_06]: or you become an instructor

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_06]: if you graduate you graduate to the next level

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_06]: or the next thing they have in store for you

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and what's so interesting too

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_06]: is I think a lot of people don't realize how

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_06]: culture we often usually organize to a point

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_06]: that there is some structure

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_06]: but they also create it as they go

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and so there's a disorganization to it

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_06]: where you can kind of see almost the imaginations

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_06]: you can see sort of the leadership thinking

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_06]: okay what can we concoct next

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and to feel in retrospect

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_06]: like you were sort of part of the experiment

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_06]: never feels good

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_06]: but I wonder in those moments

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_06]: did you feel like with van Gardwig

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_06]: with the sashes with the bowing that

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and this is the social psychological piece

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_06]: did you feel like you couldn't say

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_06]: that it bothered you

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_06]: or that it was wrong of you to be bothered by it

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_06]: because other people didn't seem to be

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: so I think that next year

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and the leadership specifically Keith and Nancy

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: very brilliantly

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I say that in air quotes

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: preempted people right from the beginning

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: to say like on day one of our five day

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you're all successful people

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: they call it double binding right

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: all successful people know that they have areas to grow

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: correct yes you already agree

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: you're here to grow

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and when you're facing those areas

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it's gonna be uncomfortable

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: there's truth in that like when you hit up against your shit

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: it's uncomfortable to work through it

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: so when we when you're uncomfortable

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it means there's something there inside you to look at

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and I often people with authority issues

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: are uncomfortable with that

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: because of whatever happened in their childhood

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and they see somebody wearing a sash

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: who's a higher rank and they feel uncomfortable

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: they don't want to wear a sash

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: we're here to work on that

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: if this piece of fabric is bothering you

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: do you think that's going to affect you in your life

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: oh wow right so then if I go like

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I don't want to wear this fucking sash

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: then I'm like I have an issue

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: versus if I had clarity now

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say something like

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to enter this program

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to enter my own inner voice

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and I now gave everything over to you

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a problem and that's a sign of a cult

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: goodbye like right now I know what I'm looking at

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but then I'm like oh shit like I have

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and so many of the things are

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: if you don't want to call Keith Vanguard

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: then like you're a suppressive

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: because you don't want to honor

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: what he built it's like not calling it

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: why wouldn't you call a doctor doctor

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: he's earned the doctor title

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: why wouldn't you call the judge a judge

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: or sir or sergeant or whatever

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a title that they've earned

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: this is what Keith has earned

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: why wouldn't you call him that if you don't

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: then there's

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_05]: it became an obedience club

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so people who weren't obedient got weeded out

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and what I learned about myself

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: through this whole thing is that

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm outwardly obedient

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be a good girl

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I've always wanted to be a good girl

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to get the gold star

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be special

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I loved the ranks because I got to like

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you know brownies

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to a lot of things

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean everyone was

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_05]: we were all like

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_05]: we were overtly

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: well you were overtly fucked out about things

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's why they called you defiant

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: right

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah the gas let me try to

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: so Nippy was always defiant

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I was controlling

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: like if I tried to express anything

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: about anything that I didn't like

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it was me being controlling

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_05]: well I mean it was also different too

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_05]: because you were a center owner

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like that

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_05]: my attitude was cut my pay

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't making but Sarah was making money

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_05]: and she had a center owner

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_05]: so you know they could leverage things

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_05]: over Sarah differently than they could for me

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean I just didn't have that kind of buy-in

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_05]: and it was just different

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not saying you know my indoctrination

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_05]: and the level indoctrination

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: that I was susceptible to

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_05]: was just different

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_05]: now had I been making money

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we would have probably

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I would have butted heads with them more

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_05]: and I would have been making

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_05]: certain aspects of myself in the back seat

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_05]: and not letting it go

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_05]: because we wore a company about standing up for shit

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_05]: and if it wasn't going under the company

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_05]: and I saw it I didn't let it go

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_05]: so I was in Sarah's ear

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_05]: and Mark Vicente's ear all the time

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_05]: going that's not fucking right

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_05]: that's not right

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_05]: and I kind of had the liberty to do it

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_10]: we tell our stories

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_10]: we change the world

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_10]: a little bit culty is proud to support

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_10]: the hashtag I got out project

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_10]: and the survivors of cultic abuse

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_10]: to share their stories online

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_10]: as a catalyst for education

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_10]: prevention and healing

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_10]: learn more about the hashtag

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_10]: I got out movement

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_10]: and find resources at

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_10]: I got out dot org

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: meals bring people together

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but for many families

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: providing their next meal can be a challenge

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you can help by participating

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: in Macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: all proceeds go toward local food banks

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and families

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you can buy food from the store or online

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: or watch out for the blue feeding

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the hungry shelf tags

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: where a portion of your purchase

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: will be donated to local pantries

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: together we can combat hunger

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in our local communities at Macy's

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_07]: the Frankies were a picture perfect

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_07]: influencer family

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_07]: but everything wasn't as it seemed

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: still up here asking for help

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: he's emaciated

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: he's got tape around his legs

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Ruby Frankie is his mom's name

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_07]: the world of Mormonism

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_07]: and a secret therapy group

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_07]: that ruined lives

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_07]: listen to Infamous

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_07]: wherever you get your podcasts

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you figured out also who you could talk to

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like one of the biggest challenges

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: is I couldn't talk to anyone

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: downline anyone below me in rank

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's bad leadership

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and if I went up I would get gaslit

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: except with maybe like Mark

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: with Mark Fasente

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and I could speak pretty openly

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: about their leaderships

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: other coaches or even Nancy

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: if you said anything it would be like

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you feel the need to say that right now

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you seem reactive

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: why don't you journal on that

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: or go get an EM and then we can discuss it

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_06]: right okay so so interesting

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_06]: so having the vantage point

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_06]: of working with thousands

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_06]: of different groups

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_06]: not just thousands of people

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_06]: thousands of different groups

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_06]: they're almost identical in this way

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_06]: it is really amazing

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and it's because they have the same personality disorder

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_06]: so it manifests in the same way

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_06]: right and really what they're saying

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_06]: is I can't handle any criticism

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_06]: but I'm not going to say it like that

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not going to have a tantrum

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_06]: that's obvious instead

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to make you wrong

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_06]: for holding me to anything that I said

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_06]: that might have been contradictory

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_06]: to having an opinion

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_06]: to having a negative emotion about it

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and so I'm going to build into the system

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_06]: this sort of zone of thought

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and I'm going to start with protection

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_06]: for my ego where you need to then look inward

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_06]: because all you're doing is you're holding

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_06]: a mirror up but they don't want to look

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_06]: so then you're wrong

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_05]: well they'll get someone else

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_05]: to tell you that you're wrong too

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_06]: they'll get right there is usually the henchman

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_06]: henchwoman

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_06]: henchpeople who are the ones who do that

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_06]: that's very true

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_05]: if it's a man they normally get a woman

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_05]: to do it because it's softer

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and I don't suspect women to be that way

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I just don't generally speaking

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_05]: it's normally generally

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not saying women can't be

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_05]: but generally it's a man with mommy issues

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_05]: who's doing the stuff

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_05]: and he uses and abuses women to go to his bidding

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_05]: those are the patterns generally that we've seen

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_06]: it's true yeah like with Rajneesh

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_06]: and other people who had women doing

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah and it happens often

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_06]: also with this group La Luz Del Mundo

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_06]: that was also how it was

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_06]: with

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: oh that's one I've never heard of

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm surprised there's a surprise

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: check it out

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_06]: check it out yeah the person in charge

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_06]: that had pastor

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_06]: who is the son of God

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_06]: of course

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_06]: of course

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_06]: God had a lot of kids

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and now he's

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_06]: in jail

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_06]: but for and should be for longer

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I wish it were 150 years

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_06]: so I'm wondering also about the things

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_06]: that you were called because I find

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_06]: sometimes the things that people are called

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_06]: are so sort of

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_06]: misogynistic

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of the women are called controlling

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_06]: or manipulative

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and the men I think when they're

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_06]: they might be considered hostile or defiant

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and you know that somehow

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_06]: that is threatening

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of people leave wondering about

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_06]: these things about themselves

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_06]: so what else were you called while you were there

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_06]: or diagnosed with

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I was also diagnosed with like me disease

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember the first time I had my

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it was called having your life issue elicited

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: where and I actually had it done in front

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of me

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was like, what is it like on a big

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like post like on the whiteboard

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and you can like rip off the sheets

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and keep it forever I still have it

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: actually and so they ask what was your

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: worst moment worst decision best ally

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: worst opponent

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and when she asked those questions

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and she listens that she looks at it

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and goes just tells you what your life

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: issue is and basically at that point

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and the life issue evolves as you

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: evolve so might change over the 12

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: years but at that point

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's truth in it because

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I did care so much what people thought

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's something that was like

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: what I wanted to work on

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was also very inhibiting as

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: an actor and ironically I had to

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: really get over that to do what we

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: did 12 years later put myself

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: on the cover of the New York Times

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and all the shit that that would

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: take and what people would think

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: of me, you know some positive some

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: negative but like, you know if you

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: don't read the full article or

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: watch the vow just some dumb idiot

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and you don't care to do what

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: we're doing right now so it's

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: ironic but it was also used

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: against me I was called God

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Nippy what you might remember

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: better but the main the main thing

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: was it was my control I would

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: micro I was micromanaging I

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: would get in trouble for like the

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: way that I led my center and

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that I wasn't leading well

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because I wouldn't let things

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: fail because I wanted things to

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: be so perfect so then if I

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't let things fail then

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I would have to do it because

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: they would have to fail and I

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't want it to fail and like

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they literally told me to leave

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: my center and leave and move to

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Albany so that I could let

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: everyone fail like literally let

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the center crumble and that's

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: how it would grow wasn't so much

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_05]: we were called stuff as much

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_05]: as when you were thought of as

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_05]: a person your issues were the

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_05]: thing that were most prevalent

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_05]: so like if Rachel came in and

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_05]: like how's Rachel doing with

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_05]: her issues so when you came in

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_05]: and you were staffing my training

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_05]: I would know that your pride

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_05]: issues were things I was looking

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_05]: for to help you shit like that

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: people talked about that way

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: like so and so she's doing her

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: tantrum they're just doing

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: their tantrum thing or like

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: their right wrong thing like

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: people who are very into being

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: like right all the time and

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: there was you know like active

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: truthful things like we all

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_05]: struggle with the term the

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: term the term the term

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I was with Nippy

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I was with somebody else for

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the first three years when I

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: was single for a year and then

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: it was with Nippy so like the

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: past the last chunk I was with

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Nipp and then it was things

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: like you know me being with

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Nippy I was just covering my

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: deficiency so we have these

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: deficiencies that we like

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: then we looked for in the

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: outside world to cover it so

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I was happy. Nipi and I were happy together, which meant that my deficiency was covered. It wasn't joy

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: it was just that like I'm filling the hole

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: not even metaphorically like

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: There's always something you could be working on. Yeah, but we've gotten shit for that like and I'm like wait

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: How it likes so is that why no one's in relationships because they don't want to cover their deficiency?

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why all the women were single yeah, because they were that's what we thought that people were working on their issues

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_05]: He was helping them grow and being another relationship was bad for them because it wasn't with him

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of the gist of it. Yeah, he basically had to keep people single so he could get in there

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then later we found out when we were leaving from someone who left before us that if you wanted to leave

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Without getting in trouble which we thought we were going to doing it first

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Was that we had to use our issues as the reason so later as we got closer and our bond was better

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know we had a you got married and had a kid then I had dependency issues

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was another thing I was called is being too dependent

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we use that as our exit is we made it look like we sort of staged this elaborate plan

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you got to that part in the book, but yeah, yeah

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean what's so interesting about that part in the book. I mean it is elaborate

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's genius that you were able to to work it in that way because you've had

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_06]: You had to learn the system and see what would work and when and how to plan it

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_06]: What I find so interesting about that as I was reading that and now hearing me talking is that

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It can never be that the reason you're leaving is because something is wrong with your organization

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_06]: So then it has to be because of your issues and it's always you

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And there are some people who really do believe that when they leave and they will come to me saying

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I am this and I have this and this is what's wrong with me and none of those things are true

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_06]: But they have taken the monitor they had to because they really did believe or they were convinced

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the way you grow and this is the way you really learn about yourself

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And are humble enough to really look inward and so I I think so much of this is just

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Manufacturing content so that they can help you with all these issues

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_06]: They then told you you have and so it would be like a doctor giving you a whole variety

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Diagnoses so that can pay for more treatment or same thing with fraudulent therapists who I talk a lot about

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Who will say well you have this issue and that issue in this

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_06]: So that you're dependent on them and the work keeps going

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think it's really important to be able to get to that point where you can say actually

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I think that we're unhappy not because of us. Yeah

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And but there isn't a space to say that they're safely

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no it never is and ironically Keith actually taught a class called shifter that exposes that exact pattern

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Even how like companies do it where the like cause a problem in the environment and make money

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Pharmaceutical company and pharmaceutical companies like cause a problem and then make money

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: From the cleanup of the problem as well as the creation of the problem

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's exactly what was happening in

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: In Xium there I couldn't agree more and actually part of my therapy and I'm still in the process of it is like

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Accepting who I am as a person like it's not control

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yes, I can be I can micromanage right like I can that's putting your skill set in a negative light

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. I have a skill set and I think that's also a little bit why they

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of left me alone to a degree like I didn't get head fucked in the way that many people did likewise because I was a recruiter

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I was bringing in so many people. So I think to a certain degree

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They wanted to keep me and you're bringing in Keith's girlfriends and bringing in women. I was a pipeline

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean not on purpose obviously, but that'd be clear

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that but I was a pipeline for him

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He knew that he knew that like when we the first time I showed up in albany with a few of my girlfriends

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone was joking about like how like people like Sarah. Do you have any unattractive friends?

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I was just showing up with all these beautiful actresses

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize why they were so excited

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow, it's so

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, uh, you know, right it is heartbroken

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_06]: It's it's so hard because you know the the problem in these situations is that the person who's left

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_06]: feeling guilt

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Is not the one who created the system and not the one who deceived you into participating in

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_06]: unwittingly

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's so interesting too when you're saying that you're still working on this in therapy

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So much of it is sort of peeling off what's real and what isn't

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_06]: One of the things that I find helpful with my clients is sort of understanding why that person or why that organization needed

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_06]: For you to believe that about yourself how it served them

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_06]: How it doesn't serve you and it might not be at all accurate about you

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm wondering how you were

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Kind of motivated to see each other as human beings and the process that you've needed to go through

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Just as a couple to kind of almost

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Remeete each other without that lens that you were given to look at each other through that was the nexium lens

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_06]: That is a great question. Do you want to tackle this one? I think there was

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Sarah and I building a company together if you had met me in 2010 through 2015

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_05]: 2016 I was said I'm working for a company that works in personal professional development to goals program

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what we were doing and so our lifestyle was I was in New York la vancouver flying all over the place running trainings

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_05]: It looked actually pretty exotic and fun

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_05]: From the outside and that's what sarah and I did sarah and I weren't in the clutches of the inner circle

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_05]: In keith until the end. Well, I wasn't yeah, but no, I mean you you got brought into that docile thing

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but we lived a lifestyle that looked on the outside

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Like it was fun and sarah and I were able to do that because we weren't in albany

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't know three times a year four times a year a little bit more at the end

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I was we were running other trainings and stuff like that

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: But we were running companies is what it felt like and growing them

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So you had two sets of ethics one around keith and one that you know in the companies that he ran

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't until probably the last six months a year of our

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_05]: participation and when sarah got involved with dos where I feel like

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Our relationship was being stressed in ways by forces that I didn't necessarily know and where they were coming from

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And it wasn't till after I realized that our relationship was stressed because there's an old adage in chiropractic

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I said it a bunch of times you don't know how much pain you're in until it's gone

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Right and once we were out of the clutches of that I was able to kind of get a sense of holy shit

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_05]: We were near some dark stuff and our relationship wouldn't have lasted had we stayed involved in that

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And it would have been because of the people that were triangulating making sarah's issues my problem

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_05]: My issues her problems. We weren't going to each other to help each other thrive

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_05]: It was more we were going outside our relationship to people that didn't want to see us thrive

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually a really good point like we didn't realize that the people that we were going to for coaching didn't want us to be together

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It was Keith's plan to break us up ultimately and tried in different ways

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean rachel did to get your head around like in 2018

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_05]: august of 2018 we spoke with uh

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone that was doing the investigation in keith and we were privy to the mountain of evidence that was coming against keith

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_05]: That he didn't have access to yet yet their lawyer this guy ignifolo

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Was in interviews discrediting sarah and I in our relationship

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Saying well, well sarah nippy's relationship isn't all that it was meant out to me

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_05]: So that told me that number one that was their angle and I was laughing because if that's all they got

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_05]: But they went to all the people that were helping us that we confided in

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Confidentially and we're like here's what's going on in the relationship here

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_05]: But the things that were going on in relationship were caused by them, right?

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's the way they kind of had leverage and I don't know what they were going to say

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_05]: They would have said thing that goes on in any relationship

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_05]: But they didn't realize that out of the relationship

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_05]: We're too independently pretty strong people and we were going to thrive and no matter what we were in

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what they were contending with at that point

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And so they had reason to be scared of us

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_05]: So they had to discredit that and ignifolo being what law you're doing what lawyers do

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Which whether you like it or not, you know

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Is shitty with his shake that to shake that foundation

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But that's what they had to attack and I felt like if that's your if that's your only card

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Good luck because there's rape and pedophilia coming down on your

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_05]: On your side

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And all you can say is sarah nippy aren't the perfect couple. Okay. Okay

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, right. I could have told you that

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Can I add something in regards to your last question?

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Rachel because I think in terms of like art the healing that we've had to do

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the most and this wasn't just with us and it was all couples and well

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone is that one of the most insidious things about the teaching is that

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We as humans like this is like on day one with this module called honesty and disclosure

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: They have you write up your list of needs and everyone has like obviously survival needs and then things that they think they need in their life

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And basically by the end of the module you learn that only survival needs are needs

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything else love connection community relationship career success joy chill all those things are not needs but desires

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Which means they're based on your interdificiency things you think you need to be okay

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, it's helpful to know I don't need those shoes to be happy right?

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But like it's very toxic if you believe that everything else you want past survival is

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: A deficiency based on your deficiency and something you need to overcome

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Behooves Keith to have people who let go of their career who let go of their desire to have children

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and so I was

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Constantly being hammered about like my attachment to wanting to have kids and I think for us as a couple

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We've had to relearn and this is what therapy has been great for us is to teach us that like it's okay for me to

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Want to connect with nippy or want to feel like he's there to support me emotionally

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Like almost all of my ems came down to like what is support and what am I going for in the outside world?

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And what am I what do I not do for my like basically I had to become more self-reliant and not ask for anything from him

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and that's a major major problem in a relationship because it's not our relationships actually work in reality

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We're still learning this so to answer that question. I think that like when we were in it

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we were building and it was fun and it was exotic

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But like we weren't relating in a normal healthy way

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We were we barely knew each other and we were so busy

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We never had time to date like we never went on dates. We never like just hung out

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We are like I was always

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02]: On the phone or building the next intensive or filling trainings not a good partner not a good present partner

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Nippy still has to be like, can you stop and sit on the couch and just chill out with me? I'm like, it's really hard

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_06]: You're living in another two and a half hours. Uh, just give me a minute

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, right

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think you know so much of what happens is that the group itself especially if it if it was getting in your head

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_06]: About what kind of person you are and what you're up to and in terms of your relationship

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Then how can it be a healthy one if you're both up to things and if you're both all these other diagnoses

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Then you almost have to like exercise

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Next see him out of your relationship so that you can see each other and you can learn who the other person really is

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And you can have your natural reactions to things without wondering

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, is it okay that I'm thinking that and should I be and but just be able to just

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Breathe and know that you can be with each other in a in a more relaxed natural way that takes some

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_06]: doing

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It takes a lot of time

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, I have to say nippy's so great to do this with I'm so glad I'm not alone in this journey because he's so funny

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so so many the things that they had us do or so ridiculous in retrospect that we have to like

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We laugh about it now

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's there's one thing Rachel like if you were late for a meeting even a minute late

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You had to fill out this is towards the later years to fill it was called a breach form

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Which was like what the infraction was did you ever do that or refuse to do that?

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I I did but I just cut and paste from Emiliano Salinas is because his were really good

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like again, I was immediately

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I was wanting to be obedient

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But like I didn't want put in the work

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So I just like cutting pace from other people how the breach affects the group yourself

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And all of humanity and what you're going to do to fix it

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So you never do it again and then later became like penance like what's the penance to heal the breach?

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just got like wildly out of control

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So now nippy and I joke like he'll do something like I'm not empty the dishwasher

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be like time to fill in a breach form nippy

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: He would eat we the thing at sop when it's too hard to explain

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was basically if the men were calling out the women all the things that were like weren't okay

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And they'd say fault be like yell fault from across the room

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So now nippy and I will fault each other

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But like like we're on deprogramming, but we're also like laughing at ourselves

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So I feel like that's healthy so good. It's so good and this whole idea also just think about

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_06]: How full of yourself you need to be to have someone fill out a form

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Where just being a second late they need to think about how this not only affects them and the group but all of humanity

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Really, that's a thing and sometimes I will know

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_06]: When my meeting support group for former cult members was meeting in my office

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And hopefully it will be again soon after the pandemic

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And the risk is lower that I would sometimes know when someone was new and had been involved in more of a

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_06]: psychological cultic group or where there had been

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Any kind of quote-of-quote therapy or group therapy because if they're running late

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I used to see the light go on in my office because you'd click the switch and the light would go on to let

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, let me know if someone was there and then it would go off

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Then it would go on and then it would go off that the person was panicked

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_06]: They had driven all the way to my office. So they wanted to come in but they were so afraid of being yelled at because they were late

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So I would see the light go on and off and on often I'd open the door and I'd say were you in the psychotherapy cult?

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, had you know and it was really fascinating to see how how you were so afraid

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I think or made to be afraid

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_06]: But also just to use the word obedient and also paying penance like you had committed a crime

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Which is so interesting to have it be like this police state, which is not at all what you signed up for

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So i'm wondering in what other ways did you notice that it just became more militant in this way and it was about

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Everyone around keith was unhappy

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_05]: They all walked around with his look on the face like their dog just died

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, wow

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And also looks specifically military because we the sop training came in the last few years if you were 10 minutes late

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: For an sop training everyone that's the chairs would be in lines and everyone would be standing there like at attention

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like military style staring straight ahead for as long as you were gone

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you were gone 10 minutes, they'd be waiting for you

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I've started at nine they'd be waiting for those for 10 minutes

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you'd have to get into your spot and then everyone would have to wait for another 10 minutes because of your

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Lateness what else was militant? Oh, I mean people became like there was a

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a couple people that literally became like the self-policing

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: They were acting as spies for keith

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, people were spying on each other and I remember being like brought into nancy's office to like verify

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Whether somebody had done something or not done something and like there was kind of like a specialness to that

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You know when you were like part of the inner

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Like did you hear that so and so said da da da?

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that true? Like can you confirm that like what do you think about that and to be in nancy's office being the

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Person who would decide it was like

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Thousand tens right? I mean what's so interesting too about this is that when you're getting involved in a group like this

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I think you think that you're supposed to be reaching the sort of higher level of being and a higher level of thinking and

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_06]: operating on this plane that has this sort of

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_06]: superiority to it but where you feel like you're transcending

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_06]: What a lot of people get involved in and you know just sort of wasted time and you know

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_06]: But pulse are some of the most gossipy and catty

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_06]: groups because I think people are jockeying for position

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I think always there's this hierarchy and you can lose standing so easily

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So people are kind of clutching on to their opportunities to

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Maintain their standing or to raise themselves up and one of the ways you raise them so

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_06]: You raise yourself up is to rat out other people because it really pleases the leadership

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_06]: But they really they need the intel and it's hard a lot of people feel really guilty afterwards

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_06]: But again going back to where we started they I think if you're convinced that it's for the greater good

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_06]: It's for that person's benefit. It's for the group's benefit. Then you feel like somehow it's good to do it

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of justification for bad behavior

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Interesting. So what other justifications? Do you remember for bad behavior?

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I just think the simple thing of talking about people behind their backs and the name of their growth is a slippery slip you can

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Depending on the person how you're going to use that early on I didn't subscribe to the hierarchy and the organization

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So I got to a point where I could teach and didn't care about being promoted

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to say I didn't talk about people but the hierarchy to me was never something

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I felt like I wanted to go up. I just liked my domain

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I had my peace in it

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_05]: But to your earlier point when you are taken out of society in the way that we are to a certain extent now

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Sara and I were able to get a foothold of being in the culture of society going out and building something

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And then being in the bubble of the cult when you're in the bubble of the cult

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_05]: You're extracted from really the laws of cause and effect of the world and that's where you get your growth

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Your self-esteem you get yourself knowledge about yourself

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_05]: You get your adversity all the things that will grow you ie failure

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Adversity maybe even a traumatic event. Those are all things that grow you and build your consciousness

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_05]: So you have a group of people who have been extracted from that and they don't have any real self-esteem

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't really have any interface with the real world except the domain that they're in and they're being told that they're more of the superior

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And all that stuff. So they entitlement gets nurtured more than their growth

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_05]: But they don't really know that because they're not interfacing

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_05]: So they become emotionally stunted professionally stunted a lot of ways particularly if you're in there your whole life and you're in your 20s

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Now because I was in and out

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_05]: I had a little bit of it. I think certain things professionally I was stunted in but unfortunately

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I've had Sarah to kind of get me up to speed on those things and vice versa

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_05]: You know with certain things that I feel like Sarah missed out on and that stuff

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's where I think our relationship has been able to thrive a little bit because we've taken inventory on areas

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_05]: That we might be

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Emotionally stunted in certain areas now if you're in that bubble and that's the only place you've grown

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Your journey is going to be tough and the more you don't acknowledge the abuse that happened to you

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And all those things and it's it's a gamut

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_05]: If you don't do that you're you're going to be stuck where you are for the rest of your life

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where we see some of the people that that haven't been announced it or even admitted that they've had things go on

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_05]: They're incredibly stunted when you're in that domain solely

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_05]: To your point

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_05]: The gossip is your currency

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_05]: in that group

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[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Meals bring people together, but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge

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[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in vancouver right now and i'm spending literally as much time as i can

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I try to not miss it

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know i'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I get so much out of it

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Just because I hate to say no to people. You know what? I mean, thanks therapy

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Look even when we know what makes us happy

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to make time for it

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you feel like you have no time for yourself

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Never skip therapy day with better help visit better help comm slash culty today to get 10% off your first month

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's better help h e l p dot com slash culty

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I definitely justified that we'd talk about people

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially as a hight because I got to green like I was always talking about where people were at

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And what they needed to do to grow to the next level

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But it did feel gossipy at times and I felt like this right like well also the subtext is

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_05]: How are these people not being obedient to what we're supposed to be doing here? Yeah

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_05]: That's really that's really what it was. I mean the gossip was yeah, they're fine

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_05]: They're working their issues, but really they were being obedient

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I just gonna say remember this one woman who is older than me and she was she was actually a coach when I started

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And she never got to proctor. She never got to the level where you can get paid and in her life

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: She was very successful. She ran multiple businesses. She was you know outgoing. She got into politics

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: She's great a great woman and a really wonderful woman and I remember I like passed her in rank

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And then now I'm talking about this woman who's a little bit younger than my parents

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But like older than me and more mature and had more success in reality

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm responsible for her promotion

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember like trying to get her promoted to proctor because we want somebody like that who's successful in life

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: To be a proctor be on the proctor team so she could get paid and like go to the next level

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were always saying how like defiant she was and I remember meaning with her after we all left next

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Sam and having a little like she got she left like she left with us and and she was like

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like no wonder you never got to proctor. You weren't defiant

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You just weren't obedient because she wasn't she pushed back on stuff and she's like no, that's not how it works in the

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Real world like I have a business and like this does not you know

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they wouldn't promote her because she wasn't malleable enough and for me to say to her like I'm so like

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: That's been my you know apology to her last five years

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm so sorry that I didn't see that then and couldn't have your back in the way that I

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Wish I could have because now I see it but you know, I didn't see it then these things go on in cults

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_05]: But I look at what's going on politically in the world

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you're a republican you speak out against the republican party

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_05]: You're in trouble if you're a democrat and you speak out against a democratic party

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And you don't get in line. You're in trouble. It's a characteristic of extreme belief systems

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's really true

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think we we do see it all around us and you know

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_06]: What happens again within a cult is specific to that group sometimes because of the behaviors or the language or the

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_06]: People but really the social psychology is mimicked everywhere

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And we see it in politics for sure a lot of things are coming to the fore now

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_06]: With trials going on and with footage that's being released where people are not looking like they're believing what the person is saying

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_06]: But they know they have to go along with it because there's going to be held to pay if they don't

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And so you never quite know who you can believe and you can't get a read on them because they're pretending

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So many people I've noticed who who have left political organizations that were very intense

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything that was very strict in its ideology

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Anywhere where they had to please the leader

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_06]: They often were feeling very differently than they let on and

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Not happy and not in agreement

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_06]: But couldn't say so when people will say, you know, I didn't want to talk about how unhappy I was because I was the only one there

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Who was unhappy? You're never the only one there

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Right

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We realized that afterwards for sure for sure like we'd have sessions with people

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We all so many people and make who were just all left and we get together and we were just sharing our grievances

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't share grievances ever

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially later in the last years with the genest training in SOP one of women's according to Keith worse worse traits was complaining

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So anything that you said that was negative was oh, you're just complaining

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's what a thought terminating

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Cliche right there, but Claire like we're not actually been paid for the loss. Do you see how entitled you are right now? Wow

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I am entitled because I fucking earned that and I did that work

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You're complaining go work on that with your coach

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't understand I was being gaslit

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And and even just to get together in a room and say how we really felt when I had food poisoning

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And Nancy told me it was because I was breached out. I wasn't barfing because of the bad shrimp

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I was barfing because I had a breach and that was my body's way

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I don't agree

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But you can't disagree because then you're being defiant and then you're not going to get promoted and you can't fucking grow

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So you just learned to shut the fuck up and one of the things I think too

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_05]: It's important and the number one effects of that is yes

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_05]: You have you know kind of abusive behaviors when you have grievance

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_05]: But it forces people to take their morality and put it to backseat to the current dogman

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting and cowardice is rewarded

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Right and so the principle that these groups profess the champion

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Is no longer being champion. It's being usurped by the people that really want to uphold it

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And they think the group is about that

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's what leads to moral injury a lot of times because you think fuck this thing supposed to be this

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_05]: But I can't say this now and but i'm supposed to toe the company line

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And then once you recognize it the company line is is undermining the principle that you're supposed to be about

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_05]: That's when you have your ethical conundrum and sometimes you don't know that's what you're reconciling

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's important to really put words to what these abuses look like so that when someone enters a system that

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Seemingly incentivize upholding the principles, but doesn't it incentivize its people to be cowards and not uphold that they need to say something right away

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_06]: That's beautifully said and to say something right away. I mean first to have it register inside of you

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes people hold back because they don't know exactly what it is

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_06]: It's bothering them and how to put it into words

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, also rachel you've been trained to not have it register. Yeah our gut instincts were dismantled right right

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_05]: So you have this registration so the conversations start happening behind the scenes

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_05]: So in a lot of way gossip serves a good purpose

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_05]: To a certain extent if if you're someone who's who's just this isn't the right thing

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And there was enough people in the organization to know that it wasn't right and which is ultimately why it came down so quickly

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Is it attracted good people?

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly, you know a lot of people will say to me if we could have just gotten rid of the leader

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_06]: We would have had a

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_06]: wonderful

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's true. Good people really care, you know, can we just like

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Get rid of the person who's making it toxic and really connect and really do something good

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, there's a lot more potential there with the with the people involved than with the leader who really actually just stands in the way

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's actually some people are mad at us

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though they think what Keith did was bad. They're like, but you ruin the community

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Started back up. Well go go ahead get back together. You know what I mean?

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Have at it

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly right

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I remember one time talking to india and she was

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Mentioning the e-m's the exploration of meaning as you know, I don't i'm translating enough for the audience

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Not for you and I remember saying to her it's so interesting that you

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Keep using the term e-m because I have this sort of therapist shorthand when I'm writing out my notes after a session

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And e-m to me stands for emotional manipulation

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought that is so interesting that things just get turned on their head that that an exploration of meaning is

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I think part of what you're also talking about that you learn to disarm yourself

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_06]: You learn to look inward as opposed to having an actual reaction to what's happening around you

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_06]: You have to kind of think what's wrong with me that I'm and what what can I learn from this?

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's tying your hands all along the way to be able to protect yourself

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I think and have a normal reaction to being mistreated or being

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Controlled. I know i'm i'm just being mindful of the time

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_06]: And I know we just have a little bit of time left, but I know there's so much more to talk about and I know

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll talk for

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_06]: But i'm really curious about you as parents because

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_06]: When you have a child or children

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Who you're then raising after having been in a situation like this?

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure it informs some of the decisions that you make and some of the conversations

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_06]: That you have or what you're sort of even planning to prepare them for

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_06]: In life about holding on to their voice, etc

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_06]: So i'm wondering just how it's infusing itself into your role as parents for your future generation

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_06]: That is such a good question

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we've been through a bit of a gamut when Troy was three when we left

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And luckily we never immersed him fully into the rainbow program

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We that just didn't exist in vancouver. We we couldn't we were traveling we couldn't but we did have like a nanny who spoke spanish

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Look the full rainbow program would have been he would have never rarely been with us

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And every nanny would have been speaking a different language

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We did like a tiny bit of mandarin at the beginning

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But it didn't we just didn't have the infrastructure for rainbow

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank god because I think that had really diabolical intentions. We'll save that for another episode

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's some principles in nexium that we kind of taught to him that I

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of which I think are good and some which I think are bad the good stuff being

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: What I still try to foster and we both try to foster is like raising the child's self-esteem to be able to learn

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: To do things on their own not do everything for them

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that the I mean the terminology is kind of nexium-ish so I try to like use different words

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But that I think is is solid what we did do before having ace is we did a parenting program

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: At the ed larian institute, which is not cult these far as I know

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And but it's just a you know a method of

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly actually looking at our own how we were parented and because I think nippy had more of like an authoritarian parent

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I had more like hippie left-wing

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Social activists, you know parents who are more like they didn't believe in punishment

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So we have very different ways of being raised and so like having to kind of come to terms with those methods

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And how we want to be with our kids

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think right now the things that we're just trying to reconcile is like because he knows like he knows a fair bit of

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: What happened and just making sure that like he gets it and understands

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Why we did what we did and hopefully one day will be proud of us, but he is he gets it

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_05]: He's smart

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think our journey now like is just trying to like give both of our children a place to express themselves

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And be themselves and not shut them down and to feel like they can

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Express how they feel and to never shame them for that or make them feel bad for that

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And also that like teach them proper like emotional regulation, which

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I struggle with because i'm a bit of a stress case, you know, and I I can have outbursts and

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm not I'm not perfect right?

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_05]: But we always go in and clean it up and they know that we're good self-correctors

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's actually something one of my one of my therapists taught me is like if I do do something that

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not ideal like yell or you know lose my patience or my temper. I immediately

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Acknowledge it else the scale and don't put it on him. I should say listen this. I'm so sorry

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm I didn't give myself time for self-care today

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm stressed out and I did not react properly in that moment

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish what I wish I could have said is this I was apologized and and we want to teach him

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: How to like take responsibility for those things not put it back on him. So I think and he does that too with us

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's good. I'm not worried about him. I'm not worried about him. Yeah, he's like, sorry mom

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That wasn't a great way to handle it

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Right I've heard people say later on in their lives

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_06]: After their parents have passed that they never heard the words

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry and it makes such an impact because

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Usually those kids of any age know that there was a lot

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_06]: That happened to them and they really wish their parents had taken responsibility

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_06]: They really wish there had been some remorse and some apology

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_06]: So you're actually offering your kids a gift

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_06]: By saying I'm sorry and I acknowledge and you're also showing them how you grow from an experience and how you're willing to take

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Responsibility which actually to me comes from a place of confidence

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's why cult leaders never take responsibility because inside they don't have that

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_06]: They really can't handle it. And so they always need to make it your

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Fault you could say, you know what? Yeah, I yelled and then you know, I really didn't handle it well

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_06]: But if you were a cult leader, you'd say I yelled but that's because you

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right, right, right suddenly get redirected back onto the other person

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make a distinction there because I this is still something I catch myself doing like choice

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: loves basketball

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And he sometimes bounces the ball in the house and the neighbors hate it

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have to be like I will get short if he doesn't listen, you know, and I could easily say

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not listening. That's why I'm yelling right which in many ways is

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like the precursor to gaslighting. It's like flipping it back, right?

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have to be so careful as separating it out and like owning my reaction saying that's not okay

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not okay. What I handle it separate thing. Let's talk about the basketball

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this can't happen in the house because of this and let's talk about it because I feel like the whole you know

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well back and forth or like the way that kids get dismissed is just so

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Unhealthy, you know, and I think that that's like I don't want him to be

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Defiant against us and then go look for

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, some other community, you know

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think that's so natural like when I see when we talk to our guests

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So so many of the people we speak to were like individuating, you know from whatever

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Construct they went through and I had a great childhood. It's like a fend like a fabulous parents

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I still needed to individuate and be like you guys are therapists, but I found something better

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I was wrong

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I was wrong, but still the pursuit is a natural one. Of course you want to find your own thing

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm wondering also just as we're finishing up just in terms of being a couple

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Just this is for people listening who they themselves are in

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_06]: organizations or working for companies where there are a lot of divorces because the company needs to be more important than

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Anything else and so you need to go to the company holiday party and not the Christmas thing happening in your home

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_06]: How can couples sort of check in with each other even though you're really not allowed to do that to a certain degree

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And preserve

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_06]: What they have you were able to do it but it takes

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Effort to do it and you have to kind of work against the system that's in place and be

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Defiant in a really good way actually

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_06]: So how are you able to do it for the two of you in terms of our recovery? Yeah, and just remaining together

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_06]: even though the forces were

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I think trying to make you be at odds with each other

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean for me it wasn't particularly we had our tough times, but I don't know that the tough times

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_05]: That we had we wouldn't have them kind of anyway as a couple

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, so I kind of recognize that sure you may you marry someone's character. You don't

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_05]: marry

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Really, I think too much more than that. I mean that was never in doubt for me

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And we have far much more going for us that I felt was worth nurturing and keeping and

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And we have a family and I was right right

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_06]: So it sounds like there was this foundation already

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So no matter how they were going to paint, you know, sarah

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Or want you to see her or have her see yourself and vice versa with you

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_06]: You still had a sense of who she was and her character. Yeah, and also rachel fucked them

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, right, you know what I mean? Like that's kind of where I come from fucked them

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't get to do that and you don't not kind of destroy my family

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_05]: You're not going to destroy what I'm building and I'm stronger than you and you didn't happen to us

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_05]: We happened to you you being the cult the cult and Keith Reneary

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I happened to you sarah happened to you. You didn't happen to us

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_05]: You lied to us. We figured it out took a while took a lot of our lives

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_05]: But you're in jail and you're where you belong because of us

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_05]: How do you like them apples?

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are delicious apples. Those are delicious apples. No, that's the truth and that I don't have to reframe anything

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean maybe you got the first punch in and I didn't know it

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_05]: But you're in jail right now in a small cell fighting for your life. We're exactly where you belong and I helped put you there

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_05]: So

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_05]: There's that

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_06]: There is that. That's very satisfying. Yeah, it was so satisfying

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think also for me, I'd say like really putting in the effort to like we've both done a lot of therapy

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We're in couples counseling

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: There's work that needs to happen and it has been happening to D program

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said at the beginning like the thing around needs and like expressing and emotions and how to relate in a healthy way

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That's something we needed to learn and we have and we're still learning

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Hashtag still learning that was for india. He'll shout out for india there when we joined next year

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We were both at times a type of people who wanted to evolve and grow and unfortunately that took a bad turn

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But we're still those people we're still willing to

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: To look at stuff and at the same time we've had to be like we want to evolve

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But we also want to embrace who we are and love ourselves and love each other and not be so like hard on ourselves

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think that's such a big part of next year

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And most cults like you have to feel like shit at some level to keep buying into the system

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I think when nippy's been really great at least for me

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say is like letting me be okay being happy and and and me

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Reminding him that he can enjoy his success. I struggle with that before we went into this thing, right?

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_05]: But it was it didn't even work didn't even work what I went into even when I was successful

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_05]: I felt like there always had to be more and that's always the problem with people who are kind of on that and having a

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Family that forces you to slow down and take inventory and recognize your in abundance has been a gift

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a muscle. You got to nurture the same way you muscle the one that wants to be better and and all that stuff

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So one of our family mato's mato's is turn your attitude into gratitude

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Turn negatives into positives. Yeah make lemons make some lemonade. Yeah, exactly right

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And and I think you know people like Keith and others are really thieves

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean they take away and so thieves really should be in jail or

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Kept away from society basically so they can't keep doing it because oftentimes his personality doesn't learn

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think that he's there. I'm assuming he's not there being self-reflective

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_06]: He's just mad that he was

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_06]: You know stopped

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure he's finding his way to still manipulate the people around him because that is his currency and sort of

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_06]: That that's his skill base

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_06]: But what you didn't let him take away from you is really important piece and that's why you're still together and that's why you're still

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Developing and growing and you know, he couldn't take that away from you either

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_06]: He derailed it and did it

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Where you had to do it sort of his way and now you've taken that back

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Which is really good to reclaim to reclaim

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Your path to reclaim your relationship your trust of each other and all of it

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_06]: You know just get it all back and not let someone be a thief

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and two things I have to tell you that we did to reclaim one is that he wrote our original wedding vows

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So at our five-year anniversary

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: We renewed our vows in front of our in front of us a small audience of our dear friends

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Which was very reclaiming and we also I also had my my scar removed my brand removed

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: with plastic surgery

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a very powerful decision for me. I needed it for the first few years as proof

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The evidence was on my body and I think you know, ultimately. Oh god, cry

[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know nippy standing by me during the most traumatic worst time of my life and not leaving when I think

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Keith probably assumed that if you put his initials on a married woman's body that that would be enough

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: For a man to be like fuck this and nippy didn't and I think you know, I

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I married his character also and that that strength and that solidarity is is unshakable

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, Keith was wrong and here we are

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I still like to knock the shit out of them

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Make sense. I'd take I'd take 60 years off

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_05]: The sentence I'd keep the five years probation

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I love that part gotta keep that

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a little dessert at the end of

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Right

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, it's delicious

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And sarah that is very very powerful and you're right

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_06]: He couldn't take he couldn't take that away from you and

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_06]: He couldn't claim you so good and so good that the two of you were able to

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Weather this storm. I think then you can go through anything

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_06]: through this

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's a nice thing to know because you learn a lot about

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Strength of a relationship when you go through something together and look where you are. So there you have it. It's really nice

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, okay. So it's been a pleasure to to talk to both of you pleasure pleasure

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you, Rachel and obviously we could do it for hours. So you'll have to come on our podcast next week

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Nice. Okay. Sure. That sounds like a plan. Let's do that. Amazing. Okay. All right

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Good good to see both of you and get to know more about your story

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm so happy that you are where you are now and your kids are lucky to have you as models as parents

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_06]: That means a lot. Thanks, Rachel

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_10]: Imagine yourself walking into a forest

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_10]: You can see the path and the trees

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_10]: High above you the air is crisp. You are walking towards your happy place

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_10]: Allegedly allegedly say it with me

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_10]: Anything said here on this podcast about alleged cults alleged mlem schemes alleged douchebaggery

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_10]: mindfuckery

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_10]: criminality

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_10]: Spiritual fraud or the like is offered purely as commentary

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_10]: Because the views and opinions expressed on a little bit culty do not necessarily reflect on official policy

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_10]: position of the podcast

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_10]: And any content provided by our guests bloggers sponsors or authors

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_10]: Are their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion group club

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_10]: Organization business individual anyone or anything

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_10]: So just let these words drift into your mind without needing to focus on any of them

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_10]: You are great. You are capable

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_10]: You deserve to be happy

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_10]: Nobody's mad at you unless you're actually a narcissistic culty criminal

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_10]: If that's you cut that shit out. Don't be a fuckwad

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_10]: But if that's not you again, you are great. You are capable

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_10]: You deserve to be happy

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_10]: A little bit culty loves you

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks again everyone for listening in on rachel Bernstein. Sarah had a parting note

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We won't see you next week, but keep checking that feed and see if maybe there's a summer bonus bonus bonus

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we start season five no guarantees

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Take care out there guys. Hope you're having a fabulous summer. Bye

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's keep the conversation going

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back soon with more episodes of a little bit culty with more experts and survivors

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And sometimes experts who are survivors as well as some familiar faces from the vow from hbo

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_05]: If you've got suggestions or questions on upcoming topics find us on instagram at a little bit culty

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And for more background on what brought me here

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: My memoir scarred the true story of how escaped nexium the cult that bound my life is available on amazon audible

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[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: A little bit culty is executive produced by me your co-host sarah edmondson and anthony nippy aims

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That's me associate producer is jess tardy produced edited mixed and mastered by citizens of sound

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Our amazing theme song cultivated is by john bryant and co-written by nigel assilin

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sarah edmondson and thanks for listening to a little bit culty