Summer Bonus: Sarah and Nippy Chat With The ‘Sickboy’ Podcast Fellas

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:14] North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:36] Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met, fell in love in a quote, self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it?

[00:01:18] We got out of there together and on our way out, we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:30] New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it?

[00:01:32] Each week at A Little Bit Culty, we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:50] There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at alittlebitculty.com.

[00:02:00] Sick boy!

[00:02:15] That's good. That's good.

[00:02:17] What do you think, sir?

[00:02:19] Nobody's going to know what you're talking about.

[00:02:21] Or I could have been like, hey everyone, surprise. It's a summer bonus episode.

[00:02:24] That's a little peppy.

[00:02:26] No, a little peppy.

[00:02:28] Hey guys, surprise. It's a summer bonus episode. I mean, no one's surprised. Everyone knows we can't just stop.

[00:02:33] That's actually way better than mine though.

[00:02:35] Listen, I do voiceover for a living. What are you going to do?

[00:02:38] You're a professional.

[00:02:39] Here's my rye voice. Here's my rye. I don't even know what I'm talking about. It's a summer episode.

[00:02:46] We love Chat Nook. I'll go back to my normal voice.

[00:02:49] So we loved chatting with our friends, Jeremy, Taylor and Brian over at the Sick Boy podcast. Say it.

[00:02:57] Sick boy!

[00:02:59] This happened every time I mentioned sick boy in the house. Nippy would say that.

[00:03:01] You could check out Sick Boy anywhere you get podcasts or find them on Instagram at Sick Boy podcast.

[00:03:09] And these guys are literal princes among men who are nice enough to let us drop the interview we did for their show right here in our little bit culty container.

[00:03:18] I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't know that people did that and they offered it.

[00:03:21] I said yes, because it was such a great conversation.

[00:03:23] It was. They asked really good questions.

[00:03:25] Such good questions. So this is really a bonus.

[00:03:26] And I think it's actually upcycling. So I'm going to go ahead and give myself a gold star for being environmentally conscious and resourceful today.

[00:03:33] Okay. So before you upcycle a little more background about the Sick Boy podcast for you,

[00:03:39] they are trio of Halifax based best friends and they're doing something very important from Sarah and I's perspective.

[00:03:46] They're normalizing conversations around things like illness, disease and death and tackling the kinds of topics with laughter.

[00:03:53] Yeah. Kind of like this no fucks given kind of laughter.

[00:03:54] Yeah. So I'm quite familiar with it.

[00:03:57] Nippy's kind of the king of no fucks given.

[00:03:59] I might have a PhD in no fucks given.

[00:04:01] I think you were born like saying you have zero fucks to give to the nurse and she was like,

[00:04:06] Yeah. No, when she spanked me on the ass.

[00:04:08] And then you asked for her number.

[00:04:10] Okay. They started the show after recognizing that when faced with difficult situations, illnesses and diseases, people tighten up.

[00:04:18] They get awkward and they simply don't know what to say.

[00:04:20] This is so true from personal experience.

[00:04:21] Taking the lead from Jeremy's lifelong battle with cystic fibrosis.

[00:04:26] The boys help people understand sometimes that the best way to deal with the darkest shit in life is simply to laugh.

[00:04:31] That's definitely been part of our medicine, right, babe?

[00:04:34] Yes. You can listen to new episodes every Monday over on iTunes, Spotify, SoundCloud, Google Play or wherever you get your podcast.

[00:04:41] We were honored to be on the show and we hope that you like the conversation.

[00:04:44] We think that dark laughs around hard life challenges can be pretty good combo.

[00:04:48] Thanks, Jeremy, Taylor and Brian and count us in as sick boy podcast groupies, but not in a weird way. We swear. Enjoy.

[00:05:11] We're so, we're so elated to be sitting down with Sarah and Nippy. If you've been living under a rock, well then you've probably...

[00:05:22] I'm jealous.

[00:05:24] You're welcome from underneath the rock.

[00:05:27] You've missed a lot, I'm sure.

[00:05:29] But Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames, Anthony Nippy Ames, both were sort of the part of the prime subjects of HBO's The Vow and the Escaping Nexium podcast from CBC.

[00:05:48] You guys were a part of the Nexium cult, which I feel like for our generation probably the most famous cult.

[00:05:57] It's the cult of our generation right now.

[00:06:00] Sweet.

[00:06:02] Congratulations.

[00:06:04] That's what I set out to do.

[00:06:06] You were looking to achieve some high level of executive success.

[00:06:10] But I feel like in that intro there's probably a lot of our listeners that are familiar with the cult.

[00:06:17] Familiar with Nexium or what Nexium was.

[00:06:20] But I'm sure that there's at least one person out there who isn't familiar.

[00:06:26] So Sarah, Nippy, first of all, thank you for taking time to be on a show to talk to us.

[00:06:31] Secondly, I would love if you took a moment to introduce yourselves and just give us the sort of like elevator pitch of what Nexium was.

[00:06:41] Jeremy, I actually feel like I've honed this.

[00:06:43] Nippy, do you mind if I do it?

[00:06:45] Sarah, there's no stopping you.

[00:06:48] She's rolling.

[00:06:50] So I had to home this elevator pitch just for the sake of my own sanity.

[00:06:55] Here's the short version.

[00:06:58] So I'll do mine and then you can do yours, isn't it?

[00:07:01] But I joined Nexium in 2005.

[00:07:03] You're welcome.

[00:07:05] I was a struggling artist, want to be semi-working actress looking for meaning and purpose in community.

[00:07:13] I met a filmmaker on a cruise.

[00:07:17] The filmmaker had made a film that I really liked and respected.

[00:07:20] Long story short, he said if you like my film, you will love this program.

[00:07:25] I just took and it was right place, right time.

[00:07:27] I really trusted him.

[00:07:29] I wanted to make movies like his that were conscious shifting media and not beer commercials and vampire TV shows.

[00:07:35] And it just felt, felt right.

[00:07:37] And I jumped in without researching.

[00:07:40] Took a five-day training in executive success programs, which is a personal and professional development program.

[00:07:47] It was very reluctant and skeptical at first.

[00:07:50] I can talk more about that later.

[00:07:52] But by the end I was totally sold and I wanted to bring this curriculum, this technology they called it, Red Flag, to Canada, which I ended up doing.

[00:08:03] I spent 12 years in the program.

[00:08:04] There were a lot of wonderful, wonderful things.

[00:08:08] Community, friendship, deep emotional work, self-awareness, self-transformation.

[00:08:15] Basically what I now know to be a combination of various therapies, talk therapy, NLP, hypnosis, Buddhism, basic tenets of probably what you've learned as yoga teachers as well.

[00:08:26] Like the truth of the universe packaged in a way that was very palpable.

[00:08:29] And that's what I found out later with the sort of the outside smoke screen to hide what was really going on behind closed doors, which was kept from many of us on the outside who were like this little army of humanitarians trying to build the world with this beautiful mission of helping people be the change and all the sort of cliché memes that you see on Instagram.

[00:08:53] All those good things we thought we were doing and that was really a cover for the leader whose name is Keith Reneary if you're still under that rock, who was basically created a system to create dependency on his system, his organization so he could have a fresh supply of women and build his own little harem and have his needs met.

[00:09:17] And it ended up being a criminal enterprise.

[00:09:20] So long story short for the elevator pitch, when we figured out what was really going on, Nippy and I and a couple of people decided to become whistleblowers and expose it.

[00:09:32] That turned into an article in The New York Times which led to an investigation which led to a trial and he's in jail for 120 years.

[00:09:40] And now we have five years probation and five years probation.

[00:09:46] Just in case he makes it.

[00:09:48] Actually immortal.

[00:09:53] A favorite part of the sentence.

[00:09:55] Marking probation.

[00:09:57] He thinks he's immortal which like is not that's not far fetched at all.

[00:10:01] So here we are.

[00:10:03] We've been out for five years coming up on our five year anniversary in actually a couple weeks.

[00:10:09] Wow.

[00:10:11] Do you celebrate?

[00:10:13] Yeah, we're going to celebrate.

[00:10:14] So we kind of like go and by the way it's almost five years.

[00:10:17] But June 1st is when I went in and did my mic drop.

[00:10:20] Yeah.

[00:10:22] So you're 2005 and you're referencing Mark.

[00:10:27] Mark Vicente.

[00:10:29] The filmmaker.

[00:10:31] Because I watched the Valor not that long ago.

[00:10:34] I ended up coming to it a little bit later.

[00:10:37] Probably watched it like six months ago maybe.

[00:10:39] Nippy, where does that start?

[00:10:41] Where does your story start?

[00:10:42] It's a little bit more.

[00:10:44] But it has a couple of distinctions I think are important.

[00:10:47] I had an old girlfriend who I had run into at a party in New York City.

[00:10:51] I was living in New York City auditioning, doing print model work stuff like that.

[00:10:56] And just hustling.

[00:10:58] And I run into her and she was married.

[00:11:03] I still had feelings for her.

[00:11:05] She gets divorced and her mother gives her a training, this training where she's from an upstate New York.

[00:11:09] as a birthday gift or a Christmas gift.

[00:11:14] And she comes out of it and, you know,

[00:11:18] when we were dating, like just a little back,

[00:11:19] I had all the books on Kennedy,

[00:11:21] all the books on Martin Luther King,

[00:11:23] all the books on the best quarterbacks.

[00:11:24] I played quarterback in college

[00:11:26] and I was just all about how do you get better?

[00:11:27] How do you get better?

[00:11:28] How do you get better?

[00:11:29] And that was pretty much what was my drive.

[00:11:31] And she knew that about me.

[00:11:32] So in her mind, I was a prime candidate

[00:11:35] for something that might be interested in this.

[00:11:36] And in a lot of ways she was right,

[00:11:40] but when she described it to me,

[00:11:41] I was like, I'm not doing your fucking cult.

[00:11:44] And it was about a year of her trying

[00:11:45] to convince me to do it.

[00:11:47] And finally, I get on a, I do it.

[00:11:49] So I had a thing, whenever I booked the job

[00:11:51] that I got paid for, I'd go take a trip somewhere

[00:11:53] see a friend or something like that.

[00:11:55] And I'm on the phone with her.

[00:11:55] She's like, what do you do?

[00:11:56] Go off and hit on women and get drunk.

[00:11:59] And I was like, yeah, kind of.

[00:12:01] That's why I'm going to LA.

[00:12:04] I'm young.

[00:12:05] Guilty.

[00:12:06] But it also, it also put the meat hooks in me.

[00:12:09] I'm like, yeah, you know what?

[00:12:10] She reminded me of the things that are important to me.

[00:12:12] So instead of taking that money to go play,

[00:12:15] I took it and was like,

[00:12:15] what's the worst thing that could happen?

[00:12:18] It's a five day training.

[00:12:20] She told me that her father had done it.

[00:12:21] And I'd known her father since I was 15.

[00:12:23] He went to Yale, played football.

[00:12:25] It was kind of a similar like, you know, respect.

[00:12:28] I'd agree.

[00:12:29] I'd agree that I respected.

[00:12:30] So I went and took a five day.

[00:12:32] And yeah, it was all, it was weird,

[00:12:35] but I had buy-in before I went.

[00:12:37] So she preempted me.

[00:12:38] She's like, it's weird.

[00:12:39] And I was like, dude, Sash's Vanguard bowing.

[00:12:41] Come on.

[00:12:42] Seriously?

[00:12:44] He's like, yeah, but the content,

[00:12:45] it felt like there was a seriousness behind it

[00:12:49] that I could relate to.

[00:12:52] And so I was involved for about a year and a half

[00:12:55] until the fall of 2003.

[00:12:58] Cause the only place you could do it

[00:12:59] was upstate New York.

[00:13:00] And then I was like, I pieced out.

[00:13:01] I was deuces.

[00:13:02] There's no one here that I respect really that's going up.

[00:13:06] Like for me, I always look in the system

[00:13:08] and go, who's the person that's doing what I want to do

[00:13:10] that person?

[00:13:11] I'm gonna find out what they do.

[00:13:12] And eventually I'm there.

[00:13:13] And there was no one in the organization that I looked at

[00:13:16] was like spearheading it in a way

[00:13:17] that I felt like it was gonna be successful.

[00:13:19] And Vanguard Sashes and Bowling just wasn't gonna catch on

[00:13:22] in New York City.

[00:13:22] So I didn't leave under any sort of duress.

[00:13:25] I was just like, okay, I got what I got.

[00:13:27] Now I'm gonna go back to my grind

[00:13:29] and build what I want to build for me.

[00:13:31] And I was still young, 27, 28, whatever.

[00:13:34] And felt like I had time to do it.

[00:13:36] And I got cast in something in LA in 2005,

[00:13:40] stayed in touch with some people.

[00:13:42] And then the filmmaker, Mark Percent,

[00:13:45] Dave's in the film came out in August of 2006

[00:13:48] and said, hey, listen, I have a film project.

[00:13:51] We're shooting it this fall.

[00:13:52] Keith was interested in having you in it.

[00:13:54] And he met me and he's like,

[00:13:56] we're funding for this stuff.

[00:13:58] And I said, okay, fine.

[00:14:00] You gonna move me back?

[00:14:02] And they paid for everything.

[00:14:03] They paid for my move.

[00:14:04] They paid to move from my car.

[00:14:06] And they paid for all my meals and board

[00:14:07] while I was in Albany up until about May of 2007

[00:14:11] when I recognized the film wasn't happening.

[00:14:13] But I also recognized that the organization had gone

[00:14:15] from like, I'm just gonna say it.

[00:14:18] What I felt like were losers

[00:14:20] to people that had pedigree,

[00:14:21] were doing things in the world.

[00:14:23] And it felt like it merged the acting community

[00:14:25] that I was pursuing

[00:14:26] in personal professional development into one field.

[00:14:29] And it felt, okay, this organization, I was wrong.

[00:14:31] And I was kind of eating my words

[00:14:34] around why I left in the first place.

[00:14:37] Another important distinction too is

[00:14:41] a lot of people are there for a lot of different reasons.

[00:14:43] Sarah's there for different reasons.

[00:14:44] I came back for work, not for Keith Reneer.

[00:14:48] So my boundaries in terms of what I felt like was good

[00:14:52] and okay had already been established in my first exit.

[00:14:56] Does that make sense?

[00:14:57] Like I wasn't like,

[00:14:58] so I wasn't coming in for the mission and Keith Reneer.

[00:15:02] I was coming in, my plan was I'm gonna shoot this film

[00:15:05] and I'm gonna go back to LA.

[00:15:06] Yeah.

[00:15:08] Tell them about the, sorry.

[00:15:09] No, I mean, one of the things I was gonna say there

[00:15:12] is that, you know, out of the,

[00:15:16] we haven't talked about cults a ton over the last six years

[00:15:19] but it's come up on the show a number of times.

[00:15:21] And I've always had a really deep fascination with cults

[00:15:27] like, you know, if there's a documentary on like

[00:15:29] a really well-known established cult, I've watched it.

[00:15:32] I find it so very interesting.

[00:15:36] Big cult fan.

[00:15:37] Big cult fan, yup.

[00:15:39] And one of the things that I feel like is kind of

[00:15:42] a misconception when it comes to cults is like,

[00:15:45] you know, when you think of like, like Jonestown

[00:15:47] or Heaven's Gate or like any of these,

[00:15:50] these cults that we've heard of in the past,

[00:15:53] you oftentimes will like watch the documentaries

[00:15:58] or read the books about these things

[00:15:59] and you hear about like the way that it was run

[00:16:02] and you kind of think to yourself,

[00:16:04] well, they must have been just,

[00:16:05] they must have been sinking their teeth

[00:16:07] into like really vulnerable people.

[00:16:09] Like the people who are the most vulnerable,

[00:16:11] the people who are the most, you know,

[00:16:14] like the weak people, the people who like

[00:16:17] just didn't have a lot going for their lives.

[00:16:20] Then you watch the vow or like you hear the two

[00:16:22] of you talk about this right now and it's like,

[00:16:25] you guys don't seem so vulnerable, you know?

[00:16:28] You guys don't seem so, so like.

[00:16:30] May I speak to that?

[00:16:31] Yeah, please, please.

[00:16:33] This is something I actually learned from Yanya Lalich

[00:16:35] and the word vulnerable is interesting

[00:16:38] because it does can have a negative thing to it.

[00:16:42] Like, oh, there's a difference between weak

[00:16:44] and stupid and vulnerable.

[00:16:47] And for sure, many cults target weak and stupid

[00:16:51] and they also target high functioning,

[00:16:54] intelligent idealistic people.

[00:16:55] It really, it's across the board, it's everything.

[00:16:58] If you look at the Teal Swan story right now,

[00:17:00] if you're gonna watch, I'm gonna do an episode on that

[00:17:02] to the deep end, she certainly targets

[00:17:05] people who are suffering in pain

[00:17:07] and like thinking about suicide, right?

[00:17:09] So are they stupid?

[00:17:11] No, are they suffering?

[00:17:12] Yes, are they vulnerable?

[00:17:13] Yes, I think the through line with all of us,

[00:17:15] anyone who gets caught up in a cult

[00:17:17] is there a vulnerability

[00:17:18] and it's more of a situational thing.

[00:17:20] They call it a social situational vulnerability.

[00:17:23] For me, being at a crossroads in my career,

[00:17:26] 26 years old not feeling like acting was really hitting it,

[00:17:30] that's a vulnerability because I'm looking for something.

[00:17:33] There is a deeping hole there of like,

[00:17:36] and I'm purpose, purpose meaning people

[00:17:38] and then, oh, it's presented itself

[00:17:40] and a vulnerability for me.

[00:17:41] It was the pseudo spiritual like time in my life

[00:17:44] where I'm putting it out there as an intention.

[00:17:46] I'm looking for my purpose and there it is, it's a sign.

[00:17:49] Oh my God, this must be it.

[00:17:50] The thing that jumped out to me when I was watching

[00:17:54] in the early episodes of the vow,

[00:17:57] I was going and this is something

[00:18:00] that we've talked about a lot

[00:18:02] is we've all taken yoga teacher trainings.

[00:18:04] We've taken many teacher trainings.

[00:18:06] Like one of the-

[00:18:07] I also went to Ryerson for acting.

[00:18:10] I'm a failed actor.

[00:18:12] And so I am, and I owe,

[00:18:17] Jeremy and I met at our first yoga teacher training

[00:18:20] 11 years ago.

[00:18:21] My wife, we just had a baby.

[00:18:24] We met at the same training.

[00:18:26] Like my life is so,

[00:18:29] took such a direction from a teacher training

[00:18:32] where you go into this setting

[00:18:34] and you are becoming acquainted with the positivity

[00:18:42] of vulnerability, of letting your guard down

[00:18:45] and making connections with people on common ground

[00:18:48] where you're trying to make strides

[00:18:49] and get better and be truthful and honest.

[00:18:52] And I saw so much of that in those first episodes

[00:18:56] when the foundation

[00:18:58] of what the executive success program was all about,

[00:19:00] I was going, wow, this on its shell

[00:19:05] like looks, it's packaged in this different way

[00:19:09] and they've got this different vernacular

[00:19:11] and the sashes and everything

[00:19:12] but it's very similar to this thing

[00:19:14] that I've experienced.

[00:19:17] And on its surface,

[00:19:21] is there any part of you

[00:19:22] that still has a bit of like a reverence

[00:19:27] for that smoke screen?

[00:19:29] If it didn't go deeper than that?

[00:19:30] Or are you like completely jaded by it?

[00:19:33] I never liked it.

[00:19:34] No?

[00:19:35] We're different in that way.

[00:19:36] I never liked the sashes.

[00:19:37] I never liked the vernacular.

[00:19:38] Oh, that part I didn't like.

[00:19:39] I mean, the curriculum and working with people

[00:19:42] and helping spotting them

[00:19:44] and working how they make decisions

[00:19:46] was really rewarding and fun.

[00:19:49] That part was great.

[00:19:50] I mean, just the other day

[00:19:52] I had an interaction with somebody

[00:19:53] who had a bit of a meltdown

[00:19:54] and I didn't EM them

[00:19:56] because that's the process we used to do.

[00:19:58] Like the basically like talk therapy

[00:20:01] but also getting to the root

[00:20:02] of like whatever is triggering them in the moment.

[00:20:05] And I just asked a couple of questions

[00:20:07] that kind of reminded me a little bit

[00:20:09] of like how I would have done it back then.

[00:20:11] You know, like what's, you know,

[00:20:12] what's what's what's what are you afraid of right now?

[00:20:14] Or like what's the worst thing?

[00:20:15] Specifying isolating overcoming

[00:20:17] with the thing that they're reacting.

[00:20:18] Yeah, they don't know that

[00:20:20] until you elicit the information and show them.

[00:20:22] So I have a reverence.

[00:20:24] Yeah, I have a reverence for like

[00:20:26] I would love to maybe go back

[00:20:27] and train to be a therapist properly

[00:20:28] so I can use those tools.

[00:20:29] I feel weird doing it now

[00:20:31] because a lot of it's based in like stuff

[00:20:34] that Keith kind of put together

[00:20:35] so I don't know how to be careful.

[00:20:37] But the ability to help somebody work

[00:20:40] through an issue is something that I have.

[00:20:42] I loved, I loved doing that.

[00:20:45] Yeah, those are powerful moments

[00:20:46] in the documentary for sure.

[00:20:48] When you say that it feels a bit weird now too

[00:20:51] and you think of it in this like

[00:20:53] you revere it at the same time

[00:20:54] that it makes you feel a little bit weird

[00:20:56] doing it because of that attachment

[00:20:57] to like the sort of more nefarious way

[00:21:00] that it was used in the past.

[00:21:01] Does that kind of suck like feeling weird about

[00:21:05] like because I love like that's my

[00:21:07] my favorite thing in life is like

[00:21:09] having those like really

[00:21:12] like deep emotional connections with someone

[00:21:14] when you're able to like hold space for them

[00:21:16] in a moment and like be there for them

[00:21:18] when they need you most.

[00:21:20] I think that is like the most valuable experience

[00:21:22] that you can have in life.

[00:21:24] And I imagine that like part of that

[00:21:26] could almost feel like tainted.

[00:21:29] It is.

[00:21:29] In a sense, what's that like?

[00:21:32] That feels tainted in the same way

[00:21:34] that because like, and not so much

[00:21:36] I don't think for Nippy, but because I did sales as well

[00:21:38] and like would connect with people on that level

[00:21:41] and then bring them into a program.

[00:21:44] You know, so it's like it branded.

[00:21:46] We have which of course we didn't know

[00:21:47] about 12 years in, but like people got hurt.

[00:21:50] People got hurt when I was originally pitching someone

[00:21:53] and relating to them on that level

[00:21:55] in a very deep emotional way.

[00:21:57] And then those people, you know,

[00:21:59] eventually moved to Albany or in some cases

[00:22:00] even joined Keith's harem.

[00:22:02] It feels like, you know

[00:22:07] I can't even invite somebody to do like

[00:22:10] just sales or pitching anything is like,

[00:22:12] Hey, we're going to the cabin.

[00:22:13] Do you guys like I've got to tell people

[00:22:15] the value of what is going to cost any of that?

[00:22:18] I'm just now being able to like

[00:22:21] even with the podcast and getting sponsorships

[00:22:23] it's any sales related things is hard.

[00:22:26] And also I didn't realize until I wasn't doing it anymore

[00:22:29] that anytime I met anybody like Jeremy

[00:22:32] if I went to your TED talk

[00:22:33] and talked to you after the show

[00:22:34] I'd be like, Oh my God, Jeremy

[00:22:35] would be the perfect person for next year

[00:22:37] because he's so all about life

[00:22:39] and living his best life and tapped into that.

[00:22:41] Like you would have been like a prime target for me

[00:22:44] and in the best possible way

[00:22:46] I would have like, I want you on our team.

[00:22:48] I want you on team mission humanity.

[00:22:50] And if I'd met you in anywhere else

[00:22:53] it's like any person I met

[00:22:54] I'd be filtering through what program

[00:22:55] would be good for them

[00:22:57] and where would they fit into our community?

[00:22:58] It's like it is a hidden motive

[00:23:01] if I was it was a good hidden motive

[00:23:03] but it was still hidden

[00:23:04] so to meet people now and to like not have that

[00:23:08] is very freeing actually.

[00:23:10] So that feels really good to be able to just

[00:23:12] Oh, your teacher training tell me where

[00:23:14] like I just curious, you know

[00:23:16] I don't know I'm not doing it to elicit information

[00:23:19] so I can find out what training would be good for you.

[00:23:23] I'm really curious about, you know

[00:23:26] so this I think it's rare

[00:23:29] for someone to get the opportunity

[00:23:31] to speak to someone who's gone through

[00:23:33] the entire process of not being in a cult

[00:23:38] eventually signing up and being deeply steeped within a cult

[00:23:42] and then realizing how fucked up the situation is

[00:23:45] and blowing a whistle on a cult

[00:23:47] and then getting, you know

[00:23:49] quite a bit of distance from it

[00:23:51] relatively to most people who are outside of

[00:23:53] you know, outside of within the cult

[00:23:56] and what that entire process is like

[00:24:00] before we kind of get into that process

[00:24:02] one of the things that I'm wondering about is

[00:24:06] when you guys were in it and like fully in it

[00:24:12] did you ever have anyone approach you outside of

[00:24:15] outside of Nexium to say like

[00:24:18] this seems a bit off, you know

[00:24:20] we are a bit worried about you guys

[00:24:22] or like share any kind of concern regarding Nexium

[00:24:27] and if so what was that experience like for you?

[00:24:31] I just took shit

[00:24:33] right, yeah, you were like, yeah, fuck it

[00:24:35] yeah, whatever

[00:24:36] that's like you're still in that cult?

[00:24:37] yeah

[00:24:39] but after a while it looked like I was working for a corporation

[00:24:42] so it didn't really look that way

[00:24:43] at first I was like I addressed the cult stuff

[00:24:45] but then when people would check on me

[00:24:48] they'd be like oh that's

[00:24:49] oh it's not cult

[00:24:50] it just sounds like it's a business for goals

[00:24:52] and that's what it was to me

[00:24:54] like could you like when they would say that

[00:24:56] would they did was there a piece of you

[00:24:58] that was like I can see how you could see it

[00:25:00] yeah

[00:25:01] no we joked about it

[00:25:02] I was like yeah it's got culty vibes

[00:25:03] okay

[00:25:04] it depends where you're asking me in the 12 years

[00:25:07] but right at the beginning people were concerned

[00:25:10] I was spending that much money as like

[00:25:11] you know my rent was $400 a month

[00:25:13] and not making any

[00:25:14] and not yeah so there was some concern about

[00:25:16] like you're spending how much on five days

[00:25:18] and who are these people

[00:25:19] and a lot of that was built on

[00:25:21] well like Mark Vicente like referred me

[00:25:23] he did what the bleep

[00:25:24] so like I had all of recruitment and cults

[00:25:27] is based on sort of a leverage trust

[00:25:29] I think it's two you know two thirds of

[00:25:32] people join cults through somebody they know

[00:25:33] or a co-worker like it's

[00:25:35] you have that like well they're doing it

[00:25:36] and they're happy and successful

[00:25:38] like this must be good

[00:25:40] but as time went on

[00:25:41] we learned how to respond to it

[00:25:43] and I actually didn't mind the objection

[00:25:45] I'd be like yeah it's a cult

[00:25:46] cult of what's a cult anyway

[00:25:47] it's a cult it's a group of happy

[00:25:48] successful people and I'm clearly

[00:25:50] like look at my life

[00:25:52] I'm clearly succeeding

[00:25:53] what's bad

[00:25:54] and we also learn that people can throw

[00:25:56] people still do throw around the word cult

[00:25:59] without saying specifically what's the abuse of power

[00:26:02] with the problem that's what we seek to do

[00:26:04] in our podcast is to specifically show

[00:26:07] what an organization or a group

[00:26:08] or religion or yoga whatever

[00:26:10] they happens across the board

[00:26:12] what are they doing specifically

[00:26:13] that makes it a cult

[00:26:14] if someone had come to me and said

[00:26:16] hey here's the checklist

[00:26:18] is your group doing any of these things

[00:26:20] that might have been different

[00:26:21] nobody ever did an intervention with me

[00:26:24] apparently my mom was planning on it

[00:26:25] but she couldn't get the other people around us

[00:26:28] to do it because they were like

[00:26:30] she's you know she seems happy

[00:26:31] like sure there's some weird things

[00:26:34] you seem happier than they were

[00:26:35] yeah

[00:26:37] I mean in that case then right

[00:26:39] like let's say that like right now

[00:26:42] my sister is not in a cult

[00:26:43] but let's say my sister

[00:26:44] I was like look at my sister

[00:26:45] I was going you're in a cult

[00:26:48] but my sister seems really happy

[00:26:50] right like she seems happy doing this

[00:26:52] cult thing that she's doing

[00:26:53] but I'm like MLMs are kind of cult

[00:26:55] look we're not gonna talk about the MLM thing

[00:26:56] like

[00:26:57] we do some episodes

[00:26:58] we did two episodes on that

[00:27:00] alright fine my sister's in a fucking MLM

[00:27:01] alright Natasha I'm so sorry

[00:27:03] if you're listening to this

[00:27:04] I love you Natasha

[00:27:05] love you Tash

[00:27:06] but

[00:27:10] god damn it I should have said somebody else

[00:27:12] you should have

[00:27:13] anyway my sister's in an MLM

[00:27:15] it's fine to talk about this

[00:27:16] it is

[00:27:17] it's important to talk about it

[00:27:18] so this is what I want to ask

[00:27:19] how can I have conversations with my sister

[00:27:21] without feeling

[00:27:22] without leaving her feeling alienated

[00:27:24] don't tell her she's in a cult

[00:27:26] okay first of all

[00:27:26] too late for that

[00:27:27] too late

[00:27:28] fuck that one up

[00:27:28] that's the use though

[00:27:30] you know I learned from Steven Hasson

[00:27:33] who wrote the other book

[00:27:34] that I refer to a lot

[00:27:35] Combat and Cult Mind Control

[00:27:37] and he

[00:27:38] he talks about how like

[00:27:39] you know

[00:27:40] you can't

[00:27:41] you can't just tell people they're in a cult

[00:27:43] I was so armed for the response for that for years

[00:27:46] I felt like

[00:27:47] I could

[00:27:47] I could ninja out of any objection around stuff

[00:27:50] you can plant questions though

[00:27:51] but you can plant questions

[00:27:52] and the people to answer your earlier question

[00:27:54] anyone come to me

[00:27:55] the person who actually got to me the most

[00:27:58] came to me

[00:27:58] we had coffee

[00:27:59] we he was just wanted to

[00:28:01] ask me some questions

[00:28:02] and he showed me all the articles

[00:28:04] that I had refused to read over the years

[00:28:07] because I was told that would

[00:28:08] change my

[00:28:09] this is a next-name term

[00:28:10] thought object of Keith Ranieri

[00:28:11] which would be violent towards him in my head

[00:28:14] and there was

[00:28:15] all of those articles were a smear campaign

[00:28:17] so why would I even read them

[00:28:18] right so he would want to show me

[00:28:19] and ask me if I knew about these things

[00:28:21] and I said you know Pepe it's all a smear campaign

[00:28:23] he said that's not how the media works

[00:28:25] what if 10% of this was true

[00:28:27] that question to him

[00:28:28] to me

[00:28:29] what if 10% of this was true

[00:28:30] would you be okay vouching for this company

[00:28:33] and

[00:28:34] that planted a seed

[00:28:35] it didn't wake me up

[00:28:36] but it planted a seed

[00:28:36] so all you can do is ask questions

[00:28:38] be compassionate

[00:28:40] and

[00:28:41] be really genuinely curious about the structure

[00:28:44] and to have them figure it out for themselves

[00:28:47] which is which is kind of interesting right

[00:28:48] because it's sort of

[00:28:50] it sort of runs against the grain

[00:28:52] of what

[00:28:53] we

[00:28:54] generally are trying to encourage as a population

[00:28:57] we're like we're trying to encourage like

[00:28:59] you know be straightforward like

[00:29:01] you know like be open be honest

[00:29:03] but in the context of

[00:29:05] of having

[00:29:06] a friend or a family member

[00:29:08] or whatever it may be

[00:29:09] that

[00:29:09] is involved in an organization

[00:29:11] that has this sort of

[00:29:12] you know you're getting the vibe

[00:29:13] that this might be a cult

[00:29:14] there might be this abusive power thing going on

[00:29:17] that instead of being

[00:29:18] upfront

[00:29:19] that's actually kind of like the worst thing that you could do

[00:29:22] because you're just going to push them further away

[00:29:24] and it's actually you want to actually kind of use this approach to some sort of

[00:29:26] caution

[00:29:27] sort of like

[00:29:28] maybe manipulation isn't the right word to say

[00:29:30] but like you are sort of you know you're

[00:29:31] you're kind of

[00:29:32] incepting

[00:29:33] what you're touching on too

[00:29:34] is a lot of the subtext of

[00:29:36] what people

[00:29:37] don't want to find out about themselves

[00:29:39] when they're in a cult

[00:29:41] or even when they watch these shows

[00:29:43] a lot of people watch the shows to verify that they're not susceptible to it

[00:29:46] so that would never happen to me

[00:29:48] and then when you call someone on it

[00:29:50] you're basically calling them stupid and naive

[00:29:52] yeah

[00:29:53] they don't like that

[00:29:54] no

[00:29:55] so

[00:29:56] when you're direct

[00:29:57] that's how they take it

[00:29:58] that's not what you're doing

[00:30:00] but

[00:30:00] you think I'd be dumb enough to fall for a cult

[00:30:02] well actually

[00:30:04] it's not

[00:30:04] but it's not an intelligence thing

[00:30:05] yeah

[00:30:06] it seems

[00:30:06] it seems

[00:30:08] really difficult though too

[00:30:09] to ask those questions

[00:30:10] because it sounds like

[00:30:11] from

[00:30:12] from your show

[00:30:13] you're trying to understand

[00:30:14] like what

[00:30:14] what is the

[00:30:15] abusive power that's happening

[00:30:17] but like on the surface

[00:30:18] like in that smoke screen

[00:30:20] it doesn't

[00:30:21] I mean it doesn't really seem like it's easy to identify

[00:30:24] what the abusive power is

[00:30:25] like it just seems like it's easy

[00:30:27] for the person to say

[00:30:27] well it's not a cult because

[00:30:29] I'm benefiting in all of these ways

[00:30:30] this is how it's making my life better

[00:30:32] so where is the abuse of power

[00:30:34] and really happening

[00:30:35] behind the scenes

[00:30:36] and it's already happened to that person

[00:30:38] right

[00:30:38] right

[00:30:39] they didn't see it

[00:31:07] we tell our stories

[00:31:09] we change the world

[00:31:10] a little bit culty

[00:31:11] is proud to support the hashtag

[00:31:13] I got out project

[00:31:15] which empowers survivors of

[00:31:16] cultic abuse to share their stories online

[00:31:18] as a catalyst for education

[00:31:20] prevention and healing

[00:31:22] learn more about the hashtag

[00:31:23] I got out movement

[00:31:24] and find resources at

[00:31:26] I got out dot org

[00:31:33] meals bring people together

[00:31:35] but for many families

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[00:31:37] can be a challenge

[00:31:39] you can help by participating

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[00:31:48] you can purchase an icon

[00:31:50] in store or online

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[00:32:00] in our local communities at Macy's

[00:32:03] the frankies were a picture

[00:32:04] perfect influencer family

[00:32:07] but everything wasn't as it seemed

[00:32:10] I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:32:12] still appeared asking for help

[00:32:14] he's emaciated

[00:32:15] he's got tape around his legs

[00:32:18] ruby frankie is his mom's name

[00:32:20] infamous is covering ruby frankie

[00:32:23] the world of Mormonism

[00:32:24] and a secret therapy group

[00:32:26] that ruined lives

[00:32:28] listen to infamous

[00:32:30] wherever you get your podcasts

[00:32:39] in terms of the actual journey

[00:32:40] that you guys went through

[00:32:41] like the whole journey

[00:32:44] and maybe this is too much

[00:32:45] of a loaded question

[00:32:45] but like

[00:32:46] what kind of impacts

[00:32:47] did this entire

[00:32:50] fucked up like wild experience

[00:32:52] that not many

[00:32:53] like you know

[00:32:55] really not a lot of people

[00:32:56] have gone through

[00:32:58] like what kind of

[00:32:58] what kind of impacts

[00:32:59] to this have on your

[00:33:01] general mental health

[00:33:05] well

[00:33:06] just to give you like timeline

[00:33:07] perspective

[00:33:07] I joined when I was 26

[00:33:09] was just turning 27

[00:33:10] I was there for my whole 30s

[00:33:11] and I left just before my 40th birthday

[00:33:14] so I had my you know

[00:33:15] all my 30s there

[00:33:17] and that's a real

[00:33:19] there's a big pivotal life

[00:33:20] changes and shifts that happen

[00:33:22] in those times obviously

[00:33:24] so

[00:33:25] you know nippy and I

[00:33:26] talk about this a fair bit

[00:33:27] like when we're reflecting

[00:33:30] in many ways

[00:33:31] and I think this is healthy

[00:33:33] although

[00:33:34] slippery slope

[00:33:34] we have to say

[00:33:36] you know

[00:33:36] I wouldn't change a thing

[00:33:37] because here we are

[00:33:39] with these two beautiful boys

[00:33:40] I never would have met nippy

[00:33:42] had I not met Mark

[00:33:43] and joined nexium

[00:33:44] with this you know

[00:33:45] southern boy living

[00:33:46] in in New York like

[00:33:47] well how could that have happened

[00:33:48] so I like I love my life

[00:33:49] I love who we are

[00:33:50] I love what we're building

[00:33:52] so I have to like

[00:33:53] look at that whole journey

[00:33:54] is just part of my

[00:33:56] whether you want

[00:33:57] from a spiritual perspective

[00:33:58] the life's purpose

[00:33:59] was I was I brought in

[00:34:01] so that I could be the bright light

[00:34:02] to get up to the highest level

[00:34:04] possible and then

[00:34:05] it's you know

[00:34:05] be a part of the exposure

[00:34:07] to expose this guy

[00:34:08] like

[00:34:09] I wanted before I joined nexium

[00:34:11] to have a meaningful

[00:34:12] and purposeful life

[00:34:13] yeah

[00:34:14] right and I thought that

[00:34:15] nexium was that thing

[00:34:16] obviously we bet on the wrong horse

[00:34:18] but now we're out of it

[00:34:19] having way more impact

[00:34:21] in terms of purpose

[00:34:22] or meaning

[00:34:23] than we ever could have had

[00:34:25] in you know

[00:34:25] the 17,000 people went through nexium

[00:34:28] 2 million people have listened

[00:34:29] to our podcast

[00:34:30] like to me

[00:34:32] it was that meant to happen

[00:34:34] so we could do this

[00:34:35] I don't fucking know

[00:34:36] I'm I all I know is that

[00:34:38] it was really wonderful

[00:34:40] when I was in it

[00:34:41] for a time being

[00:34:42] it was it was a very

[00:34:44] beautiful place

[00:34:45] with some weird things

[00:34:46] that I couldn't wrap my head around

[00:34:48] but was always trumped by like

[00:34:50] but the good

[00:34:51] the good of it

[00:34:52] all those good things you mentioned

[00:34:53] the connection

[00:34:54] the helping people

[00:34:55] the personal awareness

[00:34:56] the self evolution

[00:34:58] all those good things

[00:34:59] then

[00:35:00] I'm trying to answer your question

[00:35:01] about the mental health

[00:35:03] dig into that for a second

[00:35:05] getting out

[00:35:07] I almost like can't put myself back

[00:35:08] there because it's

[00:35:09] it was such a massive betrayal

[00:35:12] and there was so much

[00:35:13] for me personally

[00:35:14] PTSD around

[00:35:16] like

[00:35:17] just what I had to do

[00:35:18] to understand that

[00:35:19] I was out there pitching

[00:35:21] and vouching

[00:35:22] for this guy

[00:35:23] who not only turned out to be

[00:35:26] the opposite of what he said

[00:35:27] but so dark

[00:35:29] and so evil

[00:35:30] and

[00:35:31] and that I was a part of that

[00:35:32] like that was a huge

[00:35:34] awful reconciliation

[00:35:36] and to

[00:35:36] to understand like

[00:35:37] all the impact

[00:35:38] of all the people that

[00:35:39] I brought in

[00:35:40] and then they

[00:35:40] you know

[00:35:41] in the pyramid of the MLM

[00:35:43] pyramid scheme

[00:35:44] it is that they

[00:35:46] you bring people in

[00:35:47] and they bring people in

[00:35:47] so the effects of that

[00:35:49] and also like

[00:35:49] with the next

[00:35:50] see him

[00:35:51] teaching is that like

[00:35:52] you have to take responsibility

[00:35:54] for your mistake

[00:35:54] so here I am going

[00:35:55] like I'm responsible

[00:35:56] for all these people

[00:35:57] that was part of the reason

[00:35:58] why we blew the whistles

[00:35:59] like

[00:35:59] I was so loud

[00:36:01] about how great it was

[00:36:02] I had to be equally as loud

[00:36:03] about how bad it was

[00:36:04] right

[00:36:05] and

[00:36:06] to put to put myself out there

[00:36:08] in that way

[00:36:08] like yeah

[00:36:09] or louder

[00:36:09] and put myself out there

[00:36:10] to be like

[00:36:11] the spokesperson for that

[00:36:13] was

[00:36:14] of terrifying

[00:36:15] it was terrifying

[00:36:16] you know

[00:36:16] and I was like

[00:36:17] you know

[00:36:17] it was the right thing to do

[00:36:18] I felt I needed to do it

[00:36:19] but I didn't think about like

[00:36:20] how that was going to impact my kids

[00:36:22] you know

[00:36:23] or how that would impact

[00:36:24] you know

[00:36:25] how the neighbor

[00:36:26] sees me

[00:36:26] the neighbor who's never

[00:36:27] watched the vow

[00:36:28] but sees the headline

[00:36:29] saying like

[00:36:29] sex cult recruiter

[00:36:31] tells all

[00:36:32] and like

[00:36:33] you know

[00:36:33] there's more to that story

[00:36:35] but if you don't know

[00:36:35] the whole story

[00:36:36] that's how you see me

[00:36:37] like you don't

[00:36:37] I wasn't really thinking

[00:36:38] about those effects

[00:36:40] and that

[00:36:40] does take a mental toll

[00:36:41] to deal with like

[00:36:43] you know

[00:36:43] how

[00:36:44] how people see you

[00:36:45] and ironically

[00:36:46] that was one of the things

[00:36:47] I was always working on a nexium

[00:36:48] is caring less

[00:36:49] about what people thought of me

[00:36:51] you right

[00:36:52] they called it

[00:36:53] called it like me disease

[00:36:54] and I really had to

[00:36:55] challenge that

[00:36:56] to do this

[00:36:57] so

[00:36:57] in many ways

[00:36:58] have had that growth

[00:36:59] you are

[00:37:01] you know

[00:37:01] you and Nipi

[00:37:02] and Mark

[00:37:02] and

[00:37:03] and I'm blanking on his

[00:37:05] Bonnie

[00:37:06] I mean

[00:37:06] you know

[00:37:06] you guys are the architects of

[00:37:08] of a man who

[00:37:10] very much deserves to be in jail

[00:37:11] being in jail

[00:37:12] not doing this to anybody else

[00:37:13] I appreciate that

[00:37:15] and I put that into

[00:37:16] certain contexts for you

[00:37:19] I always have a little

[00:37:21] I wouldn't say

[00:37:22] Bok

[00:37:22] but a little bit of like

[00:37:24] I want to add a caveat

[00:37:25] when I hear the term whistleblower

[00:37:28] for this reason

[00:37:29] in this reason alone

[00:37:32] after Sarah got branded

[00:37:34] we told

[00:37:35] we went on our

[00:37:36] like three week campaign

[00:37:37] of telling everyone what happened

[00:37:38] and you know

[00:37:39] I wrote a letter to

[00:37:40] the president of the company

[00:37:42] saying WTF

[00:37:43] basically

[00:37:44] and

[00:37:45] no phone calls from the leadership

[00:37:47] nothing

[00:37:48] just Claire Bronfman

[00:37:49] decides to get on a plane

[00:37:50] five weeks after

[00:37:52] and go to the

[00:37:53] Vancouver police department

[00:37:54] to have my wife arrested

[00:37:55] for mischief

[00:37:56] fraud

[00:37:57] and theft

[00:37:58] in the charges that she had

[00:38:00] and the evidence she had was a lie

[00:38:02] right

[00:38:03] which then put us

[00:38:04] in a defensive

[00:38:06] right

[00:38:06] where we were going to have to go

[00:38:08] through legal woes

[00:38:09] which is what they had done

[00:38:10] they just buried

[00:38:11] all their enemies in litigation

[00:38:13] so

[00:38:13] in a lot of ways

[00:38:15] yes we were doing the right thing

[00:38:17] but we got dragged into a fight

[00:38:19] where we could

[00:38:19] have they could have handled it

[00:38:20] very different

[00:38:20] they could have handled it like

[00:38:21] but

[00:38:22] but that's

[00:38:23] that's where they had lost touch

[00:38:24] with reality

[00:38:25] because

[00:38:26] I was betting on a large scale

[00:38:28] that there would be a public outcry

[00:38:30] against branding women's

[00:38:32] privates

[00:38:33] as a means to teach them

[00:38:34] personal professional

[00:38:35] and development

[00:38:36] and character and honor

[00:38:38] right that's what

[00:38:38] that's what I was like

[00:38:39] okay you guys are on that side

[00:38:41] I'm on this side

[00:38:42] the optic of this

[00:38:43] when we put all our cards on the table

[00:38:45] are going to show us is like

[00:38:47] we're not in the wrong

[00:38:48] but you created the fight even more

[00:38:50] so it put us in a position of like

[00:38:54] we have to burn our boats

[00:38:55] we're all in

[00:38:56] like we got

[00:38:57] I mean if we don't win this

[00:38:58] we're fucked

[00:38:59] yeah right

[00:39:00] so

[00:39:01] so

[00:39:01] so to

[00:39:02] and it kind of ties into the earlier part

[00:39:03] of your question

[00:39:04] it's like

[00:39:05] we were in a fight

[00:39:06] I was in a street fight

[00:39:07] and I was in war

[00:39:08] for at least a year

[00:39:09] and it was it was like that for a while

[00:39:11] I and I describe it as being

[00:39:12] you know when you're on a plane

[00:39:14] it's a lot of comfort

[00:39:15] but when you hit that turbulence

[00:39:16] your fighter flight's going off

[00:39:17] yeah right

[00:39:18] and it kind of felt like

[00:39:19] we were on

[00:39:20] eight to nine month plane ride

[00:39:22] where

[00:39:22] fuck the turbulence

[00:39:23] would hit

[00:39:23] and your fighter flight

[00:39:24] was going off all the time

[00:39:25] there's shrapnel

[00:39:26] being thrown into your

[00:39:27] central nervous system

[00:39:28] and it was a lot of that

[00:39:29] so there's that element of it

[00:39:31] then there's dealing with

[00:39:32] how you got conned

[00:39:34] the embarrassment of looking stupid

[00:39:35] your pride taking a hit

[00:39:37] on a

[00:39:37] on a

[00:39:38] international scale

[00:39:39] to a certain extent

[00:39:41] and so there was that kind of egg

[00:39:43] on your face

[00:39:44] right so there is their initial

[00:39:45] shock trauma of it

[00:39:47] and kind of like

[00:39:48] what do I

[00:39:49] you know

[00:39:49] where am I in my life

[00:39:50] I have a kid

[00:39:51] we had no income

[00:39:53] so there's just the physical

[00:39:55] kind of like

[00:39:56] and they were intentionally doing it

[00:39:57] and we knew their playbook

[00:39:59] right

[00:40:00] so we kind of knew like

[00:40:01] shit this might not end well for us

[00:40:02] and then

[00:40:03] he got arrested

[00:40:05] and the New York Times

[00:40:06] article came out

[00:40:07] and I felt

[00:40:08] a relief

[00:40:09] I can imagine that there is

[00:40:11] during that time

[00:40:12] and you know once the branding

[00:40:13] happened and then once you decided to

[00:40:16] you know

[00:40:16] take on this fight

[00:40:18] I imagine that there's a lot of

[00:40:20] decisions that you have to make

[00:40:21] and sort of how to proceed

[00:40:22] and there's constantly things

[00:40:23] that you have to deal with

[00:40:25] and I'm curious from

[00:40:28] your relationship perspective

[00:40:30] like

[00:40:30] how did you

[00:40:32] like dealing with these

[00:40:33] this incredibly traumatic

[00:40:34] and challenging situation

[00:40:36] but also trying to like

[00:40:37] align and make decisions together

[00:40:39] and you know

[00:40:40] deal with the fact that you're like

[00:40:43] learning that you're in this cult

[00:40:44] sort of at the same time

[00:40:46] like how did

[00:40:47] how did you

[00:40:48] how did you communicate with one

[00:40:49] another to sort of like

[00:40:50] effectively navigate that

[00:40:52] we were not well

[00:40:53] we were on the

[00:40:53] well no

[00:40:54] we were on the phone with Mark

[00:40:55] and Bonnie

[00:40:55] and a team of people

[00:40:57] a lot

[00:40:57] almost every single day

[00:40:58] so it was like

[00:40:58] it's a war room in our home

[00:41:00] yeah

[00:41:01] and

[00:41:02] we made a lot of really good

[00:41:04] decisions in a short amount of

[00:41:05] time that

[00:41:06] and we had a lot of people

[00:41:08] kind of

[00:41:09] serendipitously show up

[00:41:11] even just like

[00:41:13] the New York Times article

[00:41:14] like and then Moira

[00:41:15] who took over the

[00:41:16] invest

[00:41:16] he started the investigation

[00:41:18] Moira Penza

[00:41:19] like

[00:41:19] the people that came in

[00:41:21] and and took it off our hands

[00:41:22] very quickly was

[00:41:24] I mean

[00:41:25] I don't even

[00:41:25] I don't know

[00:41:26] how that happened but it was

[00:41:29] we're very grateful for it

[00:41:30] and it

[00:41:30] and it couldn't have gone better

[00:41:32] you know 120 years right

[00:41:33] and he had arrested

[00:41:34] in under a year

[00:41:35] and convicted in

[00:41:36] wow

[00:41:36] yeah

[00:41:37] yeah that is so quies

[00:41:38] very crazy

[00:41:39] in in terms of like the actual

[00:41:41] recovery afterwards

[00:41:43] when all is said and done

[00:41:45] I

[00:41:46] I mean maybe I'm wrong here

[00:41:47] but I can't imagine that

[00:41:48] you're trying to take that on

[00:41:49] yourself

[00:41:51] like

[00:41:51] I have you guys

[00:41:53] did you guys

[00:41:54] decide to like seek therapy

[00:41:55] specifically therapy with like

[00:41:57] with someone who specializes

[00:41:58] in in

[00:41:58] deprogramming and

[00:42:00] and you know

[00:42:00] cult survivors

[00:42:02] yeah

[00:42:02] yeah we uh

[00:42:03] we spoke to well

[00:42:04] Yanya Lalich

[00:42:05] this this book is like

[00:42:06] that book helped a lot

[00:42:07] recommend the most to people

[00:42:09] it's called Take Back Your Life

[00:42:10] Yanya Lalich who was

[00:42:12] was on sickboy not long ago

[00:42:14] who also wrote

[00:42:15] Escaping Utopia

[00:42:16] you got in touch with Yanya

[00:42:18] I

[00:42:18] yeah

[00:42:19] we actually did an interview

[00:42:20] together

[00:42:20] I met her on the set of

[00:42:22] it's called Cults and Extreme

[00:42:23] Beliefs this is before I did the

[00:42:24] vow

[00:42:25] and

[00:42:26] and the book was recommended

[00:42:28] to me Mark

[00:42:28] Bonnie had left before us

[00:42:30] and she like kind of gathered

[00:42:31] up a bunch of resources

[00:42:32] so when I

[00:42:33] when we left

[00:42:34] we hit somebody

[00:42:35] thanks to Bonnie

[00:42:35] like all of a sudden

[00:42:36] we have this list of

[00:42:37] what to read

[00:42:38] and what

[00:42:39] documentaries to watch

[00:42:40] and that

[00:42:40] and that

[00:42:40] was a huge part of our

[00:42:42] deprogramming

[00:42:42] was seeing it in other groups

[00:42:44] where it's so obvious

[00:42:45] like if you watch

[00:42:46] Going Clear

[00:42:47] or Holy Hell

[00:42:48] about Bouddha Field

[00:42:49] even Wild Wild Country

[00:42:50] which I'm not crazy about

[00:42:51] but I'll talk about that later

[00:42:52] like that you

[00:42:53] you see the patterns

[00:42:54] and that helped us

[00:42:55] but we spoke to Dan Shaw

[00:42:57] who's a specialist

[00:42:57] in Cults and Narcissists

[00:42:59] he also was part of

[00:43:01] the yoga community

[00:43:02] Siddha Yoga

[00:43:03] which is

[00:43:04] I think

[00:43:05] in Upstate New York

[00:43:06] and I think actually

[00:43:08] where Keith

[00:43:08] studied to learn about how to be

[00:43:11] a guru

[00:43:12] and how to be

[00:43:13] like

[00:43:13] you know

[00:43:14] a leader of

[00:43:15] of the people

[00:43:16] I know

[00:43:17] what's up with

[00:43:17] Upstate New York

[00:43:18] is it like a hot bed

[00:43:19] it's a hot bed

[00:43:20] called startups

[00:43:21] hot bed

[00:43:22] we have to go there

[00:43:23] for a wedding in October

[00:43:24] and I'm like

[00:43:25] there's nothing up there

[00:43:26] you been up there

[00:43:27] no

[00:43:27] no I have not

[00:43:28] it sucks

[00:43:29] but but

[00:43:30] but but

[00:43:31] but but

[00:43:31] but but but

[00:43:32] but but but

[00:43:32] but but but

[00:43:32] but but but

[00:43:33] but but but

[00:43:33] but but but but

[00:43:34] but but but but

[00:43:34] but but but

[00:43:34] it sucks

[00:43:35] it really sucks

[00:43:36] I'm really glad we don't ever

[00:43:37] have to go there again

[00:43:38] except Saratoga

[00:43:39] I like Saratoga

[00:43:39] but anyway

[00:43:40] I was gonna say the other thing

[00:43:41] like I've talked

[00:43:43] a big part of our podcast now

[00:43:44] is a focus on healing

[00:43:45] and I really

[00:43:46] like we talk to these people

[00:43:47] who are still in trauma

[00:43:48] and they're survivors

[00:43:49] and I'm like

[00:43:50] just trying to give them my

[00:43:52] my healing playbook

[00:43:53] and it's

[00:43:54] I talk a lot about

[00:43:55] just the importance

[00:43:55] of self-education

[00:43:57] proper therapy

[00:43:58] finding a therapist

[00:43:59] also that doesn't

[00:44:00] trigger you

[00:44:00] like a lot of people

[00:44:01] who are next

[00:44:02] see and went to therapy

[00:44:03] and

[00:44:04] because Nexium was a

[00:44:05] therapy based curriculum

[00:44:07] there's questions that are

[00:44:08] similar to what a

[00:44:09] normal healthy therapist

[00:44:10] would ask you

[00:44:11] but if you're like

[00:44:12] getting asked that

[00:44:13] or a friend

[00:44:13] like

[00:44:14] like

[00:44:14] yeah

[00:44:15] and there's so many just

[00:44:16] questions in the question set

[00:44:17] that we would have

[00:44:18] as as coaches

[00:44:19] so then they'll go to a

[00:44:20] therapy session

[00:44:21] and be like

[00:44:21] I can't do this

[00:44:22] because it reminds me

[00:44:23] too much of Nexium

[00:44:23] so you have to like

[00:44:25] find someone

[00:44:26] that works for you

[00:44:27] that's trauma-informed

[00:44:28] coercive control

[00:44:29] informed in our case

[00:44:31] and

[00:44:32] that's a big part of what

[00:44:33] drives us now is

[00:44:35] you know

[00:44:36] telling these stories

[00:44:36] so people have

[00:44:38] access to these types of

[00:44:39] therapists

[00:44:39] and these types of

[00:44:40] conversations

[00:44:40] which weren't even around

[00:44:41] much when we were

[00:44:42] coming out

[00:44:43] so

[00:44:44] in many ways

[00:44:44] we're like

[00:44:46] providing a free

[00:44:47] not therapy

[00:44:47] but like

[00:44:48] a good supplement

[00:44:49] to therapy

[00:44:51] and the vow did a good job

[00:44:52] of setting it up

[00:44:53] because I think

[00:44:54] the vow did a good job

[00:44:55] of extending the subjects

[00:44:57] a certain level

[00:44:58] of credibility

[00:44:59] and respect

[00:44:59] as opposed to just

[00:45:00] going in

[00:45:01] and doing the obvious

[00:45:02] documentary

[00:45:04] which allowed us to segue

[00:45:05] nicely into this

[00:45:06] because I think

[00:45:07] instead of being

[00:45:08] the dumb people

[00:45:09] who fell for a cult

[00:45:10] we're

[00:45:10] the people that looked

[00:45:11] like

[00:45:12] shit

[00:45:12] how did those people

[00:45:13] fall for it

[00:45:13] and people walk away

[00:45:15] from it going

[00:45:15] hey

[00:45:16] if that can happen to them

[00:45:17] it can probably happen

[00:45:17] for me

[00:45:18] I think it's

[00:45:18] that was one of the big

[00:45:19] things that

[00:45:20] honestly

[00:45:20] like that was one of

[00:45:21] the biggest takeaways

[00:45:22] for me

[00:45:23] when I

[00:45:23] when I watched it

[00:45:24] and it also like

[00:45:25] I'm not

[00:45:26] I'm not gonna say

[00:45:26] this is a cult

[00:45:27] mostly because

[00:45:31] don't want anyone

[00:45:31] to get in trouble

[00:45:32] and I'm sure the CBC

[00:45:33] wouldn't want anything to do

[00:45:34] with that but

[00:45:35] I took landmark

[00:45:35] I took landmark forum

[00:45:37] when I was in

[00:45:37] when I was like

[00:45:38] 20

[00:45:38] 100% a cult

[00:45:39] sorry

[00:45:40] I didn't say it

[00:45:41] cheated

[00:45:44] 100% allegedly a cult

[00:45:46] 100% allegedly a little bit

[00:45:50] cult

[00:45:51] a little bit

[00:45:52] cult

[00:45:53] and

[00:45:53] I'll tell you why after

[00:45:54] and ESP

[00:45:55] like

[00:45:55] like

[00:45:56] when they were talking

[00:45:57] about that

[00:45:57] on the

[00:45:58] on the dock

[00:45:59] I was like

[00:45:59] God damn

[00:46:00] that's

[00:46:00] that's fucking

[00:46:01] that's very landmark

[00:46:02] but

[00:46:02] but

[00:46:03] the

[00:46:04] wait I want Sarah to say why

[00:46:05] can I tell you why

[00:46:06] yeah yeah yeah sure

[00:46:07] sure sure

[00:46:08] sure

[00:46:08] I'm gonna just tell you

[00:46:10] allegedly

[00:46:10] from the thousands of requests

[00:46:12] that we've gotten

[00:46:13] from our listeners

[00:46:14] whoever are supportive

[00:46:15] and people who tell

[00:46:16] tell me their stories

[00:46:17] and I had a sense of this

[00:46:18] before we even started

[00:46:19] the podcast

[00:46:20] it really is the same

[00:46:21] structure

[00:46:22] in terms of

[00:46:23] the lie

[00:46:24] or the con

[00:46:25] of nexium

[00:46:25] in other words

[00:46:26] here's a really good

[00:46:27] personal development program

[00:46:28] based on

[00:46:29] like the truth of the universe

[00:46:30] you know

[00:46:31] it's the same stuff

[00:46:31] that all the leaders say

[00:46:33] all the spiritual leaders

[00:46:34] it's the same

[00:46:35] the same tenants

[00:46:36] of healthy living

[00:46:37] and non attachment

[00:46:38] and owning

[00:46:39] personal responsibility

[00:46:40] and living your best life

[00:46:42] and all your goals

[00:46:43] shit

[00:46:43] like it's all there

[00:46:45] and that's great

[00:46:45] if you go take a training

[00:46:46] and you just do that

[00:46:47] and go back to your life

[00:46:47] you're probably gonna be fine

[00:46:49] if you use the tools

[00:46:49] you'll probably be more successful

[00:46:51] but

[00:46:52] if you buy in

[00:46:53] and you

[00:46:53] in nexium case

[00:46:54] go up the straight path

[00:46:55] or in landmark

[00:46:56] like become a teacher

[00:46:57] and like

[00:46:57] work for free

[00:46:59] it's a dependency

[00:47:00] that creates a long term problem

[00:47:02] where you feel like

[00:47:03] your personal growth

[00:47:04] and your happiness

[00:47:05] comes from the group

[00:47:06] yes

[00:47:07] yes

[00:47:07] that's the problem

[00:47:08] and you think that

[00:47:09] you have things to be fixed

[00:47:10] and they're the only ones

[00:47:11] who can fix it

[00:47:13] right

[00:47:13] so that

[00:47:14] when they caused it

[00:47:15] they caused it

[00:47:16] like

[00:47:16] and that's really my

[00:47:17] main message now

[00:47:18] is you're not broken

[00:47:19] you don't need to be fixed

[00:47:20] you want to read a book

[00:47:21] and like

[00:47:21] improve yourself a little bit

[00:47:22] great

[00:47:22] but you don't have to

[00:47:23] feel like shit about yourself

[00:47:24] or feel worthless

[00:47:25] or feel

[00:47:26] anything negative

[00:47:27] in order to go on that journey

[00:47:29] because that's what

[00:47:30] these groups pray on

[00:47:31] Hey a little bit

[00:47:33] culty listeners

[00:47:34] bless your little bitty hearts

[00:47:36] for helping support this podcast

[00:47:38] you asked us to put a link up

[00:47:40] where you could make a one time

[00:47:41] or monthly contributions

[00:47:42] to help us cover the costs

[00:47:44] of taking this podcast

[00:47:45] from our living room

[00:47:46] to your earbuds

[00:47:47] and so we did

[00:47:48] and wow

[00:47:49] you weren't kidding around

[00:47:50] when you said you wanted

[00:47:51] to help this podcast

[00:47:52] keep on cranking out episodes

[00:47:54] you stepped up

[00:47:55] thank you

[00:47:56] in fact

[00:47:56] in a relatively short time

[00:47:58] 70 of you have already

[00:48:00] chipped in

[00:48:00] and together

[00:48:01] the whole beautiful lot of you

[00:48:02] have covered the cost

[00:48:03] of making almost five full

[00:48:05] a little bit culty episodes

[00:48:06] that's pretty freaking good

[00:48:08] you are amazing

[00:48:09] did you know that

[00:48:10] and yes

[00:48:11] we're talking to you

[00:48:12] Veronica Wells

[00:48:13] Annie Blake

[00:48:14] Thomas Wicks

[00:48:15] and John Breen

[00:48:16] and you Kenny Bernstein

[00:48:17] and Kristen O'Rourke

[00:48:19] you

[00:48:20] rule Sarah Priestly

[00:48:21] and Roger Seidman

[00:48:22] and you are

[00:48:23] rad

[00:48:24] Andrea Padillas

[00:48:25] Helena Durst

[00:48:27] Sally Lotz

[00:48:28] Joel Blair

[00:48:28] and Jolene Bishop

[00:48:30] that's just a few of you

[00:48:31] who are helping to make this podcast happen

[00:48:33] want to make a contribution

[00:48:35] just go to a littlebitculti.com

[00:48:37] slash support

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[00:48:39] every little bit

[00:48:40] helps keep

[00:48:41] a little bit culty

[00:48:42] tracking along

[00:48:43] thanks again

[00:48:44] we adore you

[00:48:53] this episode is sponsored by Better Help

[00:48:56] what are your self-care

[00:48:57] non-negotiables

[00:48:59] maybe you never skip leg day

[00:49:00] or never miss yoga

[00:49:02] maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep

[00:49:03] I mean that's

[00:49:04] my personal

[00:49:05] and everyone's dream isn't it

[00:49:07] well I definitely have some non-negotiables

[00:49:09] like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:49:10] and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:49:12] as I can outside of nature

[00:49:14] hashtag

[00:49:14] cold pools

[00:49:15] hashtag crushing it

[00:49:16] nature is a non-negotiable

[00:49:18] not enough time in the fresh air

[00:49:19] and the trees around me

[00:49:19] and I start to feel

[00:49:21] not great

[00:49:21] not myself

[00:49:22] not grounded

[00:49:23] therapy day

[00:49:24] is a bit like my nature walks

[00:49:25] I try to not miss it

[00:49:26] and I know I'm just going to feel

[00:49:27] so much better

[00:49:28] all around if I make it a priority

[00:49:30] I get so much out of it

[00:49:31] it helps me put my worries

[00:49:32] and anxieties

[00:49:33] in their rightful place

[00:49:34] and helps me clear my mind

[00:49:35] so I can focus on what I really need

[00:49:37] and sometimes what I don't need

[00:49:38] like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:49:40] just because I hate to say no to people

[00:49:41] you know what I mean

[00:49:42] thanks therapy

[00:49:43] thanks for helping me see that

[00:49:44] and if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:49:46] give better help or try

[00:49:48] it's entirely online

[00:49:49] designed to be convenient

[00:49:50] flexible and suited to your schedule

[00:49:52] just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:49:53] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:49:55] and switch therapists

[00:49:56] anytime for no additional charge

[00:49:58] look

[00:49:59] even when we know what makes us happy

[00:50:00] it's hard to make time for it

[00:50:02] but when you feel like you have no time for yourself

[00:50:04] non-negotiables like therapy

[00:50:05] are more important than ever

[00:50:07] never skip therapy day

[00:50:08] with better help

[00:50:09] visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:50:11] to get 10% off your first month

[00:50:13] that's better help

[00:50:14] h-e-l-p dot com slash culty

[00:50:35] or online

[00:50:36] or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:50:39] where a portion of your purchase

[00:50:41] will be donated to local pantries

[00:50:43] together we can combat hunger

[00:50:45] in our local communities at Macy's

[00:50:49] yeah and that like I mean

[00:50:51] I did I went on that journey

[00:50:52] and uh and I actually

[00:50:54] I don't regret it at all

[00:50:55] like it was a lot from it

[00:50:57] I took a ton from it

[00:50:59] whereas Kylo went to it

[00:51:00] and Kylo went well yeah

[00:51:03] yeah as soon as they were like

[00:51:05] now you got to go and like recruit like

[00:51:06] bring your friends

[00:51:07] I was like what the fuck that

[00:51:09] everyone this is

[00:51:10] this is a I don't need to bring it to you

[00:51:12] yeah

[00:51:12] every single person landmark goes

[00:51:14] they do that

[00:51:15] and I'm just like

[00:51:15] every single person comes out of that

[00:51:17] feeling that way about it

[00:51:18] and they've refused to adjust their

[00:51:20] business model

[00:51:21] yeah

[00:51:21] and also there's things that's come out

[00:51:23] more recently about the leadership

[00:51:24] but Warner Earhart and what he was

[00:51:26] like

[00:51:26] I don't think there was like

[00:51:28] a harem like Keith had

[00:51:29] I don't think and I definitely

[00:51:30] remove himself for a reason

[00:51:31] there's there was definitely no branding

[00:51:34] but there was some definitely very

[00:51:36] not good power dynamics

[00:51:37] in the inner circle

[00:51:38] you just wouldn't see that

[00:51:39] because it's not at the training

[00:51:41] there were more removed

[00:51:42] the programs that were

[00:51:43] in the ballrooms

[00:51:44] were not like you didn't get up close

[00:51:45] and personal like you do in the XTM

[00:51:47] so anyway

[00:51:47] that's the thing that's so frustrating

[00:51:49] but like the self help industry

[00:51:51] is that it seems to prey on people

[00:51:53] who who just like have good intentions

[00:51:55] and just want to

[00:51:56] yeah

[00:51:56] want to

[00:51:57] get better and be

[00:51:58] the best version of themselves but

[00:52:00] and that there's like a bit of like

[00:52:01] a of like a

[00:52:03] generation of a circular effect of like

[00:52:06] there's always something fundamental

[00:52:10] that you need to

[00:52:11] yeah

[00:52:11] and I feel like it's

[00:52:13] I'm curious what you guys think

[00:52:13] but I feel like it's sort of

[00:52:15] amplified by social media culture now

[00:52:18] too

[00:52:18] in the sense that like

[00:52:19] everybody's trying to curate

[00:52:21] like the best version of themselves

[00:52:22] online

[00:52:23] and so therefore they're showing you

[00:52:25] the best version of themselves

[00:52:26] so you want to be the best version

[00:52:27] of yourself

[00:52:28] so you're trying to do all the things

[00:52:29] to

[00:52:30] be that person that you think you have

[00:52:31] to be to

[00:52:32] get approval for well-being

[00:52:34] yeah that's the toxic positivity

[00:52:36] bullshit

[00:52:37] and that's really rampant in MLMs

[00:52:39] because

[00:52:39] you can't not be happy

[00:52:41] because if you're not happy then like

[00:52:42] you're not a boss babe

[00:52:43] you know

[00:52:44] you're gonna be a happy boss babe

[00:52:46] there's no problem

[00:52:47] right

[00:52:48] it makes me

[00:52:49] that's hilarious

[00:52:49] I'm

[00:52:50] I also wonder

[00:52:52] I imagine that

[00:52:54] one thing

[00:52:55] that an experience like this would

[00:52:56] take from you is

[00:52:57] is your sense of

[00:52:59] ability to trust

[00:53:01] people

[00:53:01] and I'm curious how

[00:53:03] this is

[00:53:04] this whole experience is affected

[00:53:06] your guys's ability to trust people

[00:53:09] if I'm not very skeptical of things

[00:53:11] everything

[00:53:13] I trust to

[00:53:14] if I trust until you prove

[00:53:16] you're not trustworthy

[00:53:18] my trusting

[00:53:20] mechanism has a lot more wisdom in it

[00:53:22] now than I did before

[00:53:23] yeah

[00:53:23] so I don't think I trust differently

[00:53:25] I just have more wisdom in the way

[00:53:27] I go about trusting

[00:53:28] just got a better bullshit radar

[00:53:30] and I listened to my gut more

[00:53:33] my gut radar was dismantled

[00:53:35] because I was told that there were

[00:53:37] issues with it

[00:53:37] and that it needed to be worked on

[00:53:39] and

[00:53:40] and now I have to be like

[00:53:41] something doesn't feel right about this person

[00:53:43] I'm not gonna go forward with that

[00:53:45] because you both went into it

[00:53:47] in the beginning

[00:53:47] like the

[00:53:48] when you were first introduced to it

[00:53:49] you both had that sort of like

[00:53:51] spidey sense tingling

[00:53:52] yeah

[00:53:53] if you see Keith Ranieri

[00:53:54] you're

[00:53:55] you know

[00:53:55] he doesn't

[00:53:56] you don't have any buying around him

[00:53:57] you're gonna walk right by him

[00:53:59] and if he tries to go hey

[00:54:00] I'm a

[00:54:01] guru you're gonna tell him to go fuck himself

[00:54:02] yeah

[00:54:03] right

[00:54:03] yeah

[00:54:04] it took a

[00:54:05] lot of people to vouch for him

[00:54:07] and a lot of people

[00:54:09] to go out and say

[00:54:10] I met him

[00:54:10] he's fine and all that stuff

[00:54:12] because

[00:54:12] he's not only fine

[00:54:13] he's great

[00:54:15] it doesn't pass the mustard

[00:54:16] when you meet him one on one

[00:54:18] and he knows that

[00:54:19] he has a mirror

[00:54:20] yeah

[00:54:21] yeah

[00:54:21] you know

[00:54:21] yeah

[00:54:22] like he knows that

[00:54:23] he knows what he's doing

[00:54:24] he's got some creepy

[00:54:25] creepy vibes out of it

[00:54:25] you check out the T.L. Swan documentary

[00:54:28] one of the very first things she says

[00:54:29] to her little following at a

[00:54:31] at a retreat

[00:54:32] she goes like

[00:54:32] if you're gonna do this with me

[00:54:34] you gotta

[00:54:35] you gotta go to the deep end

[00:54:36] which is ironic

[00:54:37] because I think she's going off the deep end

[00:54:38] my opinion

[00:54:39] allegedly

[00:54:40] she's fine

[00:54:41] yeah

[00:54:41] yeah

[00:54:41] but she

[00:54:42] well hold on a second with that

[00:54:43] hold on

[00:54:44] wait wait

[00:54:44] no no no no

[00:54:45] people

[00:54:46] are afraid to say she's fucked

[00:54:47] we talked to some people

[00:54:48] well I don't know

[00:54:49] like

[00:54:50] I haven't even pulled out my

[00:54:51] dude

[00:54:52] she is

[00:54:52] she is fucked

[00:54:53] she is fucked

[00:54:54] beyond fucked

[00:54:55] like

[00:54:55] like

[00:54:58] diplomatic around it

[00:54:59] and I'm like

[00:54:59] hold on a second

[00:54:59] I'm not familiar

[00:55:00] I don't know

[00:55:01] I'm unfamiliar

[00:55:02] T.L. Swan

[00:55:02] I mean you guys would be able to speak to this better than me

[00:55:04] but T.L. Swan is

[00:55:04] sorry Sarah

[00:55:05] I just thought it was important to have that

[00:55:06] I don't want to get sued

[00:55:07] that's all

[00:55:07] oh yeah

[00:55:08] you know what

[00:55:09] now

[00:55:09] you said landmark was a cult now

[00:55:11] I'm saying T.L. Swan's fucked

[00:55:12] so we're all getting sued

[00:55:13] okay

[00:55:13] all right

[00:55:14] our

[00:55:14] our

[00:55:15] our litigation training that we took is out the window

[00:55:19] I'm sorry

[00:55:20] anyway

[00:55:20] anyway

[00:55:21] he's a spiritual leader who's like helping

[00:55:23] she thinks she's helping people

[00:55:25] but I

[00:55:25] she's just like

[00:55:26] she's just pushing people to kill the world

[00:55:27] themselves

[00:55:28] that's

[00:55:28] you know what I don't

[00:55:29] I don't even know

[00:55:31] that's even that's the worst

[00:55:32] I mean

[00:55:32] obviously that's

[00:55:33] if that's happening

[00:55:34] that's really really bad

[00:55:35] obviously

[00:55:36] but I think that

[00:55:38] what is

[00:55:38] the biggest thing that I'm seeing

[00:55:39] is even the people who don't do that

[00:55:41] she's a huge following

[00:55:43] and she's not

[00:55:44] the trained

[00:55:44] licensed therapist

[00:55:45] and she's doing

[00:55:46] deep emotional work

[00:55:47] with people's trauma and abuse

[00:55:49] and possibly also

[00:55:51] planting memories

[00:55:52] in real time

[00:55:53] in these retreats people are like

[00:55:54] oh wait

[00:55:55] was I abused by my dad

[00:55:56] and she's like

[00:55:57] yeah I see it

[00:55:57] I can see him doing

[00:55:58] like she's having these ESP moments

[00:56:00] and they believe her

[00:56:01] and then they have to reconcile

[00:56:02] now that they were abused

[00:56:03] things they don't even remember

[00:56:05] yeah

[00:56:05] which

[00:56:05] which can happen

[00:56:06] that can happen in therapy

[00:56:08] that things come up

[00:56:09] that you had suppressed

[00:56:10] I think

[00:56:10] but

[00:56:11] the level of which

[00:56:12] everyone that goes through her trainings

[00:56:14] are having these like

[00:56:14] repressed emotions

[00:56:15] about like satanic

[00:56:16] ritual sex abuse

[00:56:17] is like

[00:56:18] very very dark

[00:56:19] and very bad

[00:56:19] wow

[00:56:20] last podcast on the left

[00:56:22] just did a

[00:56:23] really amazing deep dive on it

[00:56:24] and highly suggest you listen

[00:56:26] last podcast

[00:56:27] in the left

[00:56:27] yeah yeah they're

[00:56:28] they're

[00:56:29] that's a good name

[00:56:30] I like that

[00:56:30] they're pretty great

[00:56:31] they're

[00:56:32] more so like

[00:56:33] true crime

[00:56:35] serial killer

[00:56:36] type stuff

[00:56:36] but they

[00:56:37] they dabble in cults as well

[00:56:39] I'm really

[00:56:39] I'm really dying to know

[00:56:40] about your podcast

[00:56:42] a little bit

[00:56:42] oh yes

[00:56:42] about your podcast

[00:56:42] about your podcast

[00:56:43] um uh

[00:56:44] and you know

[00:56:45] I

[00:56:45] I love that you guys are doing a podcast

[00:56:47] and you've

[00:56:48] we've sort of like

[00:56:48] brushed over it

[00:56:49] a few times

[00:56:50] during the conversation here

[00:56:52] but

[00:56:52] what like

[00:56:54] what was the decision

[00:56:55] to

[00:56:55] to create a podcast together

[00:56:57] and also was there a little bit

[00:56:59] of trepidation there

[00:56:59] yes

[00:57:00] considering that

[00:57:01] this seems like a really

[00:57:02] fucking

[00:57:03] you know

[00:57:04] traumatic

[00:57:05] triggering thing

[00:57:06] to kind of just like

[00:57:06] constantly talk about cults

[00:57:08] after

[00:57:08] and all these

[00:57:09] groups are so litigious

[00:57:10] it's very scary

[00:57:12] on a daily basis

[00:57:13] ultimately it happened in

[00:57:14] COVID

[00:57:15] and

[00:57:15] the vow happened

[00:57:16] and that was crazy

[00:57:17] and our lives

[00:57:18] blew up in this weird way

[00:57:19] and

[00:57:19] people were reaching out from all

[00:57:20] around the world

[00:57:21] saying like

[00:57:22] oh my god

[00:57:23] thank you

[00:57:23] because now I'm able to see

[00:57:24] that this thing I'm in

[00:57:25] is actually a cult

[00:57:26] and

[00:57:27] or I was

[00:57:27] about to do something

[00:57:28] and then I watched the vow

[00:57:29] and I didn't do it

[00:57:30] and it turned out it was a cult

[00:57:31] or

[00:57:32] all around the world

[00:57:33] people reaching out to us

[00:57:35] just to talk

[00:57:35] and connect

[00:57:36] and share

[00:57:36] and tell their stories

[00:57:37] and

[00:57:37] and a number of people said

[00:57:39] we

[00:57:39] could would you do a podcast

[00:57:40] or like really

[00:57:41] isn't it all in the vow

[00:57:42] like

[00:57:43] what more could you want

[00:57:45] but it was COVID

[00:57:46] and

[00:57:47] we

[00:57:47] I put it on my Instagram

[00:57:48] I said

[00:57:48] do you guys like

[00:57:50] to my

[00:57:50] you know

[00:57:50] my little followers

[00:57:51] which also was culty

[00:57:52] right

[00:57:53] but

[00:57:53] but

[00:57:53] did you guys

[00:57:54] you guys want more

[00:57:56] do you want to do a podcast

[00:57:57] and everyone said yes

[00:57:58] except for one person

[00:57:59] and that was my

[00:58:00] assistant at the time

[00:58:01] and she said no

[00:58:02] and I said why

[00:58:02] she's because you're so busy

[00:58:03] like when are you going to do a podcast

[00:58:05] like good point

[00:58:06] did it anyway

[00:58:07] the caveat is Sarah says yes

[00:58:09] to a fault

[00:58:10] I say no to a fault

[00:58:11] yes that's true

[00:58:12] I'm always like yeah

[00:58:13] let's do an adventure

[00:58:14] but somebody reached out to us

[00:58:16] her name is just starting

[00:58:17] we saw the last dance

[00:58:18] the last dance

[00:58:18] we watched the last dance

[00:58:19] and it was turned

[00:58:20] negatives into a positive

[00:58:22] and I was like

[00:58:22] Sarah we gotta turn this

[00:58:23] into a positive

[00:58:24] yes that happened

[00:58:26] carry on Sarah

[00:58:26] and just tardy reached out to us

[00:58:28] and said yes

[00:58:28] you should do a podcast

[00:58:29] it should be called

[00:58:30] our associate producer

[00:58:31] who's now our associate producer

[00:58:32] she said it should be called

[00:58:33] a little bit culty

[00:58:34] and she kind of like

[00:58:35] laid it all out for us

[00:58:36] laid out a season for us

[00:58:37] yeah oh yes

[00:58:39] and specifically citizens of sound

[00:58:41] is a

[00:58:41] podcast production company

[00:58:43] who is x evangelical

[00:58:44] they had an x

[00:58:45] culty background

[00:58:47] so we

[00:58:47] and Jess had a bunch of

[00:58:49] culty things happen in her life

[00:58:50] so we had all these people

[00:58:51] who like understood

[00:58:52] what we've been through

[00:58:52] and this team sort of formed

[00:58:54] and then it just birthed

[00:58:56] and we did it

[00:58:56] and it we

[00:58:57] because I had done so many other

[00:58:59] interviews

[00:58:59] and other people's

[00:59:00] like Mike Rinder

[00:59:00] and Leah Remini from Scientology

[00:59:03] I had some calls to be like

[00:59:05] hey can you come on ours now

[00:59:07] so we had these great interviews

[00:59:09] with people lined up

[00:59:10] that were

[00:59:11] you know or even having Yanya on

[00:59:12] was one of our first guests

[00:59:13] we had all these cult experts

[00:59:15] that had become our friends

[00:59:16] and allies over the past

[00:59:18] years

[00:59:19] just in our recovery process

[00:59:21] that we could call on

[00:59:22] and we thought hey

[00:59:23] we're having these conversations anyway

[00:59:24] like this

[00:59:25] this is an amazing conversation

[00:59:26] great

[00:59:27] why don't you record it

[00:59:28] and share it

[00:59:29] it just seemed like a no-brainer

[00:59:30] and

[00:59:32] here we are

[00:59:33] but you're right

[00:59:33] it is stressful

[00:59:34] we have to do very clear

[00:59:36] boundary work of being like

[00:59:37] especially with the teal swan stuff

[00:59:38] I watched that documentary

[00:59:39] could not sleep

[00:59:40] I was so angry

[00:59:42] and like writing letters

[00:59:43] to her in my head

[00:59:43] and like telling her off

[00:59:44] as if I was in the training

[00:59:45] you know like

[00:59:47] if she tried to gaslight me

[00:59:48] and I went

[00:59:48] I'm fucking you're not

[00:59:49] gonna fucking gaslight me bitch

[00:59:50] you know like

[00:59:51] like I have these bad disease

[00:59:53] like that can't be healthy

[00:59:54] you know like I just

[00:59:56] I don't know

[00:59:56] it is healthy

[00:59:57] or it is

[00:59:58] yeah it's like

[00:59:58] it's like your internal

[00:59:59] rage room

[01:00:00] you know

[01:00:00] it's like

[01:00:01] instead of going

[01:00:01] and smashing a TV

[01:00:02] in that little weird room

[01:00:03] you can just do it in your brain

[01:00:04] and I think

[01:00:05] I think it's just gonna

[01:00:06] naturally that you

[01:00:07] that

[01:00:08] having the experience of

[01:00:10] blowing the lid off

[01:00:11] of this

[01:00:12] and feeling

[01:00:13] and I'm sure

[01:00:14] although I know you feel

[01:00:15] conflicted about

[01:00:16] you know your role

[01:00:17] in

[01:00:18] bringing people into next to you

[01:00:20] and like I said before

[01:00:21] I

[01:00:21] I think that it

[01:00:22] it aways it

[01:00:23] how you blew the lid off of it

[01:00:24] and

[01:00:24] and kind of

[01:00:25] lit the fire into this

[01:00:27] like

[01:00:28] I feel like

[01:00:28] it makes a lot of sense

[01:00:30] to have a

[01:00:31] kind of a desire

[01:00:32] to just like

[01:00:33] keep the fire going

[01:00:35] like keep the

[01:00:36] keep these people

[01:00:37] put the spotlight on these

[01:00:39] these people

[01:00:39] in these groups

[01:00:40] that are doing these things

[01:00:41] and helping out

[01:00:41] I'll tell you the origin

[01:00:42] of that and why

[01:00:43] you know

[01:00:43] you see a lot of things

[01:00:44] going on right now

[01:00:45] in the world

[01:00:46] and everyone's complaining

[01:00:47] and it's

[01:00:48] it's been coined a term

[01:00:49] grievance ideologies

[01:00:50] I have a complaint

[01:00:51] therefore I have a platform

[01:00:52] and I told Sarah

[01:00:54] we need to really be specific

[01:00:55] on what principle it is

[01:00:56] that we're doing

[01:00:57] and I find a lot of people

[01:00:58] that grab the mic

[01:00:59] oftentimes don't know

[01:00:59] what the fuck

[01:01:00] they're talking about

[01:01:01] they don't know

[01:01:01] what they're looking at

[01:01:02] and

[01:01:03] the reason I got involved

[01:01:04] at any

[01:01:06] element

[01:01:06] even in the interviews

[01:01:07] with the vow

[01:01:08] I kind of was like

[01:01:08] I just wanted to make

[01:01:09] my piece and get out

[01:01:10] but I also understand

[01:01:11] people weren't articulating

[01:01:12] it well

[01:01:12] and they didn't understand

[01:01:13] the abuses of power

[01:01:14] very well

[01:01:15] and

[01:01:16] you know

[01:01:16] I was allergic to people

[01:01:18] pretending that it couldn't happen to them

[01:01:20] and I felt like

[01:01:20] if we could articulate

[01:01:21] and had a platform

[01:01:22] that could say

[01:01:23] the abuses of power

[01:01:24] that go on in cults

[01:01:25] aren't proprietary to cults

[01:01:26] they're going on

[01:01:27] in other hierarchies

[01:01:28] in other domains

[01:01:29] that you and I

[01:01:29] interface with every single day

[01:01:31] whether you want to believe it or not

[01:01:33] and if we could

[01:01:33] have a podcast

[01:01:34] that stayed in that lane

[01:01:36] and didn't really venture out

[01:01:37] under the

[01:01:38] things that could be

[01:01:39] a little bit culty

[01:01:40] and the abuses of power

[01:01:41] I felt like

[01:01:42] that was time well spent

[01:01:43] and since we've done that

[01:01:45] you know

[01:01:46] we've had a lane open up

[01:01:47] where we can help

[01:01:48] way more people than we ever thought we could

[01:01:49] I think it would be stupid

[01:01:50] not to take that

[01:01:51] and take that as far as you can go

[01:01:53] because

[01:01:53] absolutely

[01:01:54] to me

[01:01:54] that's what it's about

[01:01:56] you know

[01:01:56] and that's why I got involved with it

[01:01:58] in the first place

[01:01:59] and

[01:02:00] we had been asking

[01:02:02] people questions for

[01:02:03] 10

[01:02:03] 15 years

[01:02:05] we were trained

[01:02:06] to elicit information

[01:02:07] from people

[01:02:08] and do that

[01:02:09] so we were kind of

[01:02:11] play our

[01:02:12] player ready for it

[01:02:13] and we could do it

[01:02:14] in our apartment during COVID

[01:02:16] so a lot of things lined up

[01:02:17] for us to go

[01:02:18] yeah

[01:02:18] why the

[01:02:19] why not

[01:02:19] we also didn't

[01:02:20] oh sorry

[01:02:21] that's a no no no

[01:02:22] you can go ahead

[01:02:22] because if you're going to continue on that thought

[01:02:24] it's it's it's a totally

[01:02:25] different way

[01:02:26] so

[01:02:26] just to wrap

[01:02:27] just to finish that

[01:02:28] the one thing we didn't know

[01:02:29] when we were talking

[01:02:29] experts and survivors

[01:02:31] is that it would also become a platform

[01:02:32] for people

[01:02:33] like

[01:02:33] a couple people whistleblow

[01:02:35] on our platform

[01:02:36] against some

[01:02:37] blown

[01:02:37] there's not

[01:02:38] whistleblown

[01:02:39] blown the whistle

[01:02:40] the whistleblown

[01:02:41] the

[01:02:41] on the

[01:02:42] like a cut

[01:02:43] there was like the

[01:02:44] teal male equivalent

[01:02:45] in my opinion

[01:02:46] the alleged

[01:02:47] abuser

[01:02:48] bantinio misaro

[01:02:50] we did two part episode on that

[01:02:51] where three victims spoke out for the first time

[01:02:53] which led to

[01:02:54] Rolling Stone article

[01:02:55] which is hopefully going to lead to an investigation

[01:02:57] but like

[01:02:58] that to be a part of that

[01:02:59] again

[01:03:00] really exciting and meaningful

[01:03:01] also very triggering

[01:03:03] and

[01:03:03] re-traumatizing

[01:03:04] so

[01:03:04] yeah

[01:03:05] just finding that balance

[01:03:06] and also trying to be a mom

[01:03:07] and an actor

[01:03:08] so it's

[01:03:09] crazy town

[01:03:09] yeah

[01:03:10] here

[01:03:10] I wanted to ask too about

[01:03:12] talking about these things

[01:03:13] I mean obviously there's

[01:03:15] there's the

[01:03:16] you know

[01:03:16] you mentioned that you set

[01:03:17] very clear boundaries too

[01:03:19] so that you

[01:03:19] don't have to go into those

[01:03:21] re-triggering moments as often

[01:03:23] but I also imagine that there's

[01:03:25] there's maybe some component that's

[01:03:27] beneficial in talking about this

[01:03:28] and

[01:03:29] when I go to therapy

[01:03:30] my therapists often

[01:03:31] times will like use the analogy of

[01:03:34] talking or

[01:03:35] talking through triggering

[01:03:37] or past traumas is like

[01:03:38] it's like all these memories in your

[01:03:40] in your brain are sort of like

[01:03:41] filed away and these

[01:03:43] they're like pieces of paper and

[01:03:44] and

[01:03:45] the traumatic ones are like pieces of

[01:03:47] paper but they're like crinkled up

[01:03:49] and so

[01:03:50] when you talk about them it's like you

[01:03:51] pull them back out and you

[01:03:53] talk through this thing and

[01:03:54] you reprocess it and then you're able

[01:03:56] to like sort of flatten out that

[01:03:57] piece of paper so that it files away

[01:03:59] more easily

[01:04:00] in your in your mind and

[01:04:02] and I

[01:04:03] I think that you guys are in this

[01:04:05] unique situation where

[01:04:06] you know in blowing the whistle

[01:04:09] anxium and and sort of being forced

[01:04:11] into talking about it

[01:04:12] and talking about it a lot

[01:04:13] and very public platforms

[01:04:16] I imagine that there

[01:04:17] there's probably some sort of

[01:04:19] benefit to doing that too

[01:04:20] absolutely

[01:04:21] and I'm curious what your thoughts

[01:04:24] are on talking about trauma

[01:04:27] in a way that again is like on your

[01:04:28] own terms to sort of reprocess

[01:04:31] and go through it

[01:04:32] you're not going to follow up with

[01:04:33] like some sort of new analogy to

[01:04:34] what your your therapist said

[01:04:36] like like they're

[01:04:37] you know maybe

[01:04:38] they have a lamination machine

[01:04:39] and they're taking their paper out

[01:04:40] and they're sending it through the

[01:04:41] laminator

[01:04:42] I love analogies

[01:04:43] I love analogies

[01:04:45] you would have loved anxium

[01:04:46] we used a lot of analogies

[01:04:49] the guys joke that I would have been

[01:04:50] a good cult recruit

[01:04:51] yes

[01:04:52] you've been a great coach

[01:04:54] yes I mean

[01:04:55] just this conversation is cathartic

[01:04:57] because that's a great metaphor

[01:04:59] despite where your

[01:05:00] your your podcasting thinks

[01:05:02] I think it's a great metaphor

[01:05:03] I'm going to use it

[01:05:04] I'm going to reference you

[01:05:05] pay tribute to you

[01:05:07] and thank you

[01:05:07] it's just another little thing

[01:05:09] for my tool belt

[01:05:09] so like I get something

[01:05:10] like I get something out of this

[01:05:11] you know it's

[01:05:12] it's selfish

[01:05:14] in that way for sure

[01:05:16] the more that we talk about it

[01:05:18] the more the

[01:05:19] shame is blown away

[01:05:20] it's just

[01:05:21] yeah it just what happens

[01:05:22] it's humanized is it

[01:05:22] yeah totally

[01:05:23] and in every conversation we have

[01:05:25] I can't even tell you how many people

[01:05:28] are like

[01:05:28] yeah I was part of this

[01:05:29] or I was in this

[01:05:30] or I was almost

[01:05:31] like everyone's got a culty story

[01:05:33] even if it's not a full blown

[01:05:35] you know legit cults

[01:05:36] cultish shit happens all the time

[01:05:37] and and now people have the

[01:05:39] the words for it

[01:05:40] so to be a part of that

[01:05:41] is exciting

[01:05:42] in in a sense you have to

[01:05:44] like right now when you're running a business

[01:05:45] and you want to build an audience

[01:05:46] you kind of have to like

[01:05:47] have that culty aspect to it

[01:05:48] to like really drive

[01:05:49] yeah you want the right

[01:05:51] amount

[01:05:52] like we were thinking about doing

[01:05:53] retreats

[01:05:55] as sick boy

[01:05:56] we were thinking about implementing a

[01:05:57] sass

[01:05:58] sash system

[01:06:00] okay bruh

[01:06:00] like the more people come on the retreats

[01:06:02] the more calm it

[01:06:03] calm it

[01:06:03] it's ashes

[01:06:05] I have a question that I've been

[01:06:07] we've been batting around

[01:06:08] this

[01:06:09] what we think

[01:06:10] and if this is kind of unrelated to

[01:06:12] what we really talk about of a podcast

[01:06:14] but something that I'm

[01:06:14] fucking fascinated about

[01:06:16] and I'm interested in your guys' take

[01:06:18] what was Keith Reneary thinking

[01:06:21] when he asked

[01:06:23] Mark to film everything

[01:06:24] oh yeah

[01:06:25] oh I know what he was thinking

[01:06:27] yeah

[01:06:27] like did he have any clue

[01:06:28] like that

[01:06:29] because he was filming

[01:06:31] you don't even understand

[01:06:32] he wasn't just filming everything

[01:06:34] if I had a meeting with him

[01:06:35] I would have

[01:06:35] I would have recording it

[01:06:37] everything was documented

[01:06:38] that it was for

[01:06:39] posterity

[01:06:40] and for what was going to be the

[01:06:42] library of his genius

[01:06:44] down the road

[01:06:45] and they were

[01:06:46] categorizing it

[01:06:46] so if he did a forum

[01:06:47] there was like 20 people with paper

[01:06:49] and pens

[01:06:50] and a stopwatch

[01:06:51] going

[01:06:52] at 10 minutes

[01:06:52] he told a joke about elephants

[01:06:54] at 12

[01:06:55] at 12 minutes

[01:06:55] he told a metaphor

[01:06:56] about trauma

[01:06:57] and paper

[01:06:58] at 13 minutes

[01:06:59] he

[01:06:59] and they would document it

[01:07:00] so they could put it in a computer

[01:07:02] and they could be like

[01:07:02] when has Keith ever talked about

[01:07:04] monogamy

[01:07:05] or the climate

[01:07:07] or farts

[01:07:08] or whatever

[01:07:10] and he did

[01:07:10] like he went off on these tangents

[01:07:12] and so they wanted a

[01:07:14] a system where you could catalog

[01:07:16] all the things that he set

[01:07:17] and have video footage and audio

[01:07:18] and that was the plan

[01:07:20] convenient for the FBI

[01:07:21] I suppose when they're

[01:07:22] really convenient

[01:07:23] yeah

[01:07:23] when did he

[01:07:24] backfire

[01:07:24] discriminate himself

[01:07:25] oh

[01:07:25] not the smartest man in the world

[01:07:27] after all

[01:07:27] what a fucking dummy

[01:07:29] I've got one last question

[01:07:32] for the both of you

[01:07:32] and this is a question that we

[01:07:33] typically ask our guests

[01:07:35] who are living with illness

[01:07:36] but I'm going to kind of

[01:07:37] shift a little bit here

[01:07:39] yeah

[01:07:40] so

[01:07:42] and this is for both of you

[01:07:43] each to

[01:07:44] to answer individually

[01:07:45] it's a two-part question

[01:07:46] the first part is

[01:07:47] what is the biggest thing

[01:07:49] that nexium has taken away from you

[01:07:52] time

[01:07:54] youth

[01:07:56] no wait

[01:07:59] what is it taken away from me

[01:08:00] for me it's time

[01:08:01] the only thing I actually

[01:08:02] still have hanging out with me

[01:08:04] in my psychology

[01:08:05] is the time I spent

[01:08:06] the time I emptied out

[01:08:07] yeah and like not knowing what I

[01:08:10] could have done in my 30s

[01:08:11] had I put that energy into like

[01:08:13] an actual organization

[01:08:14] or you know I had all these other

[01:08:15] things I thought I'd be good at

[01:08:17] that I didn't do

[01:08:18] and I don't feel like I could do

[01:08:20] now fully so

[01:08:21] what

[01:08:23] just yeah the unresolved

[01:08:24] potential in my mind

[01:08:25] it's the one thing we can't get

[01:08:26] back

[01:08:27] you can get back money

[01:08:28] you can get back you know

[01:08:29] your friends

[01:08:29] you can get back

[01:08:30] you can get nearly time

[01:08:31] is the one entity that

[01:08:33] the ultimate abuse

[01:08:34] was hoarded out

[01:08:35] like if you could see

[01:08:36] what we did

[01:08:37] hard for some

[01:08:39] and where in the armpit of America

[01:08:43] what a fucking upstate New York

[01:08:44] what would you say is the biggest

[01:08:46] thing that nexium has given you

[01:08:48] wisdom

[01:08:49] sense of self

[01:08:51] amazing who I am

[01:08:53] yeah

[01:08:54] yeah for what it's worth

[01:08:54] and my children

[01:08:57] for what it's worth

[01:08:59] I'm not a

[01:09:00] I know you talked about it earlier

[01:09:01] I'm not much of like a

[01:09:02] you know things happen

[01:09:03] for a reason type person

[01:09:04] but like

[01:09:06] you know

[01:09:07] I know it took away time

[01:09:08] and I know it took away

[01:09:10] the possibility of

[01:09:11] you know what you could have done

[01:09:14] in an important decade of your life

[01:09:15] but you're here now

[01:09:17] and you both have heated

[01:09:19] a very great call

[01:09:21] of responsibility to help people

[01:09:24] and I think you're doing

[01:09:25] some pretty fucking awesome

[01:09:27] work with what you got

[01:09:28] absolutely

[01:09:29] that means a lot

[01:09:30] does

[01:09:31] and I'm not a big

[01:09:32] seeker of validation

[01:09:33] but the last

[01:09:35] last week or two

[01:09:36] we've had some

[01:09:37] some pretty big victories that

[01:09:39] you know

[01:09:39] and for me personally

[01:09:42] I was just in LA

[01:09:44] and we just got a

[01:09:46] little ride up in the New Yorker

[01:09:47] and I told my dad about it

[01:09:49] and he called me

[01:09:51] and I heard him proud of me

[01:09:56] for the first time

[01:09:57] in like a long time

[01:09:59] you know like really like

[01:10:01] because I mean

[01:10:01] I had a lot of expectations

[01:10:03] I went to night reading school

[01:10:04] I played quarterback

[01:10:05] I was on a track

[01:10:06] and I kind of felt like

[01:10:07] you know I'm going to be

[01:10:08] successful in a way that

[01:10:10] you know my dad will be proud

[01:10:11] and I was in a fucking cult

[01:10:13] and it put strain on my family

[01:10:14] and when I just

[01:10:15] he didn't have to tell me

[01:10:16] because he's kind of

[01:10:17] Clint Eastwood in that regard

[01:10:20] but I heard it

[01:10:21] you know

[01:10:21] and I recognize it

[01:10:23] because I'd heard it

[01:10:25] in his voice when I was younger

[01:10:27] and just for him to

[01:10:28] live to see it

[01:10:30] and just

[01:10:31] I mean it's not huge

[01:10:32] but just for me it was

[01:10:33] it was it was a real big kind of

[01:10:36] you know moment for me

[01:10:37] and I just had a moment

[01:10:38] you know when I got off the phone

[01:10:39] with him

[01:10:39] and it just felt

[01:10:41] really good

[01:10:41] and I didn't know

[01:10:43] you know I didn't know

[01:10:43] that was necessarily going on

[01:10:45] with me

[01:10:45] and something that would

[01:10:46] make me feel like that

[01:10:47] because I kind of

[01:10:48] you know there's that poem

[01:10:49] treat success and failure

[01:10:50] the imposter is just the same

[01:10:52] you know

[01:10:53] and you have to keep

[01:10:53] kind of on a

[01:10:54] you can't indulge your press clippings

[01:10:56] and and get down

[01:10:57] too big

[01:10:58] or too up when you're high

[01:10:59] and just knowing

[01:11:00] that was something

[01:11:01] and owning that was something

[01:11:02] that I wanted and needed was

[01:11:04] very big for me

[01:11:05] and then to have it

[01:11:06] in other regards

[01:11:07] tells me I'm on the right path

[01:11:09] and you know

[01:11:10] Sarah and I

[01:11:11] are betting on ourselves

[01:11:12] in a way that

[01:11:13] we did before

[01:11:13] and it's

[01:11:15] it's not over

[01:11:15] it's just the beginning

[01:11:16] so

[01:11:17] that's really special

[01:11:17] thanks for sharing that

[01:11:18] so thank you guys

[01:11:18] for giving us a platform

[01:11:20] hey I

[01:11:21] I mean

[01:11:21] you know I

[01:11:22] I

[01:11:23] the three of us are

[01:11:25] we

[01:11:26] we love what you guys are doing

[01:11:27] and we think that

[01:11:28] that you are

[01:11:29] absolutely incredible

[01:11:30] and

[01:11:30] and the fact that

[01:11:32] you've taken time

[01:11:33] out of your busy schedules

[01:11:34] to sit down and

[01:11:34] be on our show

[01:11:35] just means the absolute

[01:11:36] fucking world to us

[01:11:38] we thank you so so much

[01:11:39] for feeling

[01:11:40] to be a shoulder to me

[01:11:41] this is yeah

[01:11:42] this has just been

[01:11:43] such a treat

[01:11:43] and such a treat

[01:11:44] for us too

[01:11:45] you're

[01:11:46] really inspiring

[01:11:46] to us

[01:11:47] absolutely

[01:11:48] yeah well

[01:11:48] if

[01:11:49] if we're gonna be in Vancouver

[01:11:50] we're gonna be in Vancouver

[01:11:51] at some point

[01:11:51] but you guys have been moved

[01:11:52] to

[01:11:53] we're coming

[01:11:53] we're coming out

[01:11:54] to do a show

[01:11:54] in the fall

[01:11:55] so end of September

[01:11:56] end of September

[01:11:56] yeah but

[01:11:58] our paths will cross

[01:11:59] I mean

[01:12:00] we're spending our summers here

[01:12:01] so

[01:12:02] so there we are

[01:12:02] maybe we'll find ourselves in

[01:12:04] Peach Country

[01:12:04] uh folks

[01:12:05] that'd be great

[01:12:06] again

[01:12:06] can you keep in touch

[01:12:07] again the podcast is a little bit

[01:12:09] culty

[01:12:09] you can find it

[01:12:10] wherever you find podcasts

[01:12:11] and

[01:12:12] we didn't even mention

[01:12:12] but Sarah

[01:12:13] you've got a book called

[01:12:14] Scarred

[01:12:14] that is also

[01:12:15] you can find that

[01:12:17] wherever you find

[01:12:18] true

[01:12:18] fine books

[01:12:19] how can people follow

[01:12:20] you guys

[01:12:21] and

[01:12:21] and stay up to date

[01:12:22] with the work

[01:12:23] that you're doing

[01:12:24] awesome

[01:12:24] thank you for that

[01:12:25] we are on

[01:12:26] Instagram mostly

[01:12:27] at a little bit

[01:12:27] culty

[01:12:28] I'm

[01:12:28] on Instagram is Sarah Edmondson

[01:12:30] Anthony is

[01:12:31] Anthony Ames

[01:12:33] no I'm Anthony Ames 11

[01:12:36] you gotta really want to find me

[01:12:37] you earned it

[01:12:38] hahaha

[01:12:39] I earned it

[01:12:39] follow that

[01:12:40] is a little bit more of a

[01:12:41] social enigma

[01:12:42] but

[01:12:43] they try to respond to everybody

[01:12:44] you find me

[01:12:45] I know you've worked for it

[01:12:48] well again

[01:12:49] thank you guys

[01:12:49] really really really awesome

[01:12:50] thank you so much

[01:12:51] thank you so much

[01:12:53] imagine yourself

[01:12:54] walking into a forest

[01:12:57] you can see the path

[01:12:58] and the trees

[01:13:00] high above you

[01:13:01] the air is crisp

[01:13:02] you are walking towards your happy place

[01:13:05] allegedly

[01:13:06] allegedly

[01:13:07] say it with me

[01:13:08] anything said here

[01:13:09] I'll miss podcast

[01:13:10] about alleged cults

[01:13:12] alleged MLM schemes

[01:13:13] alleged douchebaggery

[01:13:15] mindfuckery

[01:13:16] criminality

[01:13:17] spiritual fraud

[01:13:18] or the like

[01:13:19] is offered purely

[01:13:20] as commentary

[01:13:22] because the views

[01:13:22] and opinions expressed

[01:13:24] on a little bit

[01:13:25] culty

[01:13:25] do not necessarily reflect

[01:13:27] on official policy

[01:13:28] or position

[01:13:29] of the podcast

[01:13:31] and any content provided by our guests

[01:13:33] bloggers

[01:13:34] sponsors

[01:13:35] or authors

[01:13:36] are their opinion

[01:13:37] and are not intended to malign

[01:13:39] any religion

[01:13:40] group

[01:13:40] club

[01:13:41] organization

[01:13:42] business individual

[01:13:43] anyone

[01:13:44] or anything

[01:13:45] so just let these words

[01:13:46] drift into your mind

[01:13:48] without needing to focus on any of them

[01:13:50] you are great

[01:13:52] you are capable

[01:13:53] you deserve to be happy

[01:13:55] nobody's mad at you

[01:13:56] unless you're actually

[01:13:58] a narcissistic

[01:13:59] culty criminal

[01:14:00] if that's you

[01:14:01] cut that shit out

[01:14:03] don't be a fuckwad

[01:14:04] but if that's not you

[01:14:06] again

[01:14:07] you are great

[01:14:08] you are capable

[01:14:09] you deserve to be happy

[01:14:11] a little bit culty loves you

[01:14:16] okay so not only was that

[01:14:18] such a great chat

[01:14:19] but they had the coolest

[01:14:22] podcast studio setup

[01:14:23] set up

[01:14:24] that we are

[01:14:25] very jealous about

[01:14:26] and planning on

[01:14:27] they're enterprising for sure

[01:14:28] like they're cranky

[01:14:29] they know what to do

[01:14:29] and they've also been so supportive of us

[01:14:31] and helped us to like

[01:14:33] level up in a lot of ways

[01:14:34] so you never know

[01:14:35] what these conversations will lead to

[01:14:37] but we hope that it'll be

[01:14:38] a lifelong friendship

[01:14:39] and a lifelong connection

[01:14:40] for sure

[01:14:41] and a reason to go to Nova Scotia

[01:14:44] that's good nip

[01:14:45] and guys

[01:14:46] Jeremy, Taylor and Brian

[01:14:47] we're sending you some

[01:14:47] a little bit culty hats

[01:14:48] as promised

[01:14:49] thanks again for having us

[01:14:50] and thanks everybody for listening

[01:14:52] bye

[01:14:53] bye

[01:15:01] let's keep the conversation going

[01:15:10] we'll be back soon

[01:15:11] with more episodes of

[01:15:12] a little bit culty

[01:15:14] with more experts and survivors

[01:15:15] and sometimes

[01:15:16] experts who are survivors

[01:15:18] as well as some familiar faces

[01:15:19] from the vow

[01:15:20] from HBO

[01:15:21] if you've got suggestions

[01:15:22] or questions

[01:15:23] on upcoming topics

[01:15:24] find us on instagram

[01:15:25] at a little bit culty

[01:15:27] and for more background

[01:15:28] on what brought me here

[01:15:29] my memoir

[01:15:30] Scarred The True Story of How I Escaped

[01:15:32] Nexium The Cult That Bound My Life

[01:15:34] is available on Amazon, Audible

[01:15:36] and where most books are sold

[01:15:38] if you'd like to help us

[01:15:39] spread the word

[01:15:39] about a little bit culty podcasts

[01:15:41] please give us a five star review

[01:15:42] and tell your friends to subscribe

[01:15:44] seriously like

[01:15:45] take out their phone

[01:15:45] and tell them to press subscribe

[01:15:47] takes a second

[01:15:48] we're also available on

[01:15:49] Apple Podcasts, Spotify

[01:15:50] and every major listening app

[01:15:52] and if you're listening

[01:15:53] on a smartphone

[01:15:54] tap or swipe over the cover art

[01:15:55] of this podcast

[01:15:56] to find show notes

[01:15:57] and helpful resources

[01:15:58] you might also find

[01:15:59] some offers from our sponsors there

[01:16:01] and when you support our sponsors

[01:16:02] you help us keep this podcast going

[01:16:04] just don't be a little bit

[01:16:06] culty about it

[01:16:06] A Little Bit Culty

[01:16:07] is executive produced by me

[01:16:09] your co-host

[01:16:10] Sarah Edmanson

[01:16:11] and Anthony Nipi Ames

[01:16:13] that's me

[01:16:13] Associate producer

[01:16:14] is Jess Tardy

[01:16:16] produced, edited, mixed

[01:16:17] and mastered

[01:16:18] by Citizens of Sound

[01:16:20] Our amazing theme song

[01:16:21] Cultivated is by John Bryant

[01:16:23] and co-written

[01:16:24] by Nigel Asselin

[01:16:25] I'm Sarah Edmanson

[01:16:26] and thanks for listening to

[01:16:28] A Little Bit Culty