Surviving the IFB: Shelly Snow Pordea on Trauma, Healing, and Fiction

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cult's are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:49] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult. If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out. We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

[00:01:15] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty. Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everybody.

[00:01:41] Today's guest, Shelley Snow-Pordia, is a novelist, screenwriter, and advocate for survivors of religious abuse. She was born into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, and she escaped as an adult. For anyone not familiar or has not listened to our extensive back catalog, the IFB is a branch of evangelical Christianity. It has churches spread across the country, and they run the gamut from super conservative to outright culty. Many use fear and intimidation to keep their followers in line.

[00:02:08] Pastors are considered one step below God, which means they are not to be questioned. They also isolate their followers from the outside world, insisting all matters will be handled within the church, including sexual abuse. That always works out well. So what happens when allegations of sexual abuse within said church pour in by the hundreds? Basically nothing. And it's been literally hundreds.

[00:02:29] It seems the IFB has adopted the Catholic Church method of dealing with abuse, cover-up, secrecy, shipping abusers off to different locations, and victims who speak up are often blamed and intimidated into silence. Only a handful of abusers have ever faced prosecution. How far up the food chain does this go? To the top. There was this guy, Jack Hiles, who was nicknamed the Baptist Pope. Multiple teen girls accused his son, David, of rape, and the Baptist Pope covered it up personally. David Hiles never faced charges.

[00:02:57] Our guest, Shelley, has firsthand experience with the Hiles Church. She's here to tell us how she survived it and how the creative writing process helped her heal from trauma. We also get into her new novel, The Cheating Wife. It's influenced by the way religion and society treat women. We loved this book. The Cheating Wife shakes the unethical foundations of systems that need deconstructing and offers inspiration for how we, as a society, can and must do better. From the back cover.

[00:03:24] Morgan Conner had it all until the words, cheating wife, appeared spray-painted across her property, turning her world upside down. Suddenly, her picture-perfect life is in pieces and the whispers of her community grow louder by the second. Caught in a storm of judgment and betrayal, Morgan must dig deep to fight for her truth and her survival. In a society where appearances often mean more than facts, can she rise above the scandal and find her own voice?

[00:03:51] Dive into this powerful story of resilience, redemption, and breaking free from the expectations of others. Again, we love this book and we hope that you do too. And before we meet her, I want to add quickly that we're not trying to shit on Christianity or Baptists in general. We're touching on an abusive aspect that gives conservative Christians a bad name. Correct. Now, let's welcome Shelley to the show. Shall we?

[00:04:31] Shelley Snow-Predilla, welcome to Libet Culti. Hi. It's so great to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so glad you're here. We met in person in St. Louis last year, which was amazing. I got to see you perform an excerpt from one of your many stories about your experience. So I have a little bit of background. Nippy's a little new to the party. And our audience is definitely new to the party. So why don't we just like give them a little bit of a background on who you are. I know you grew up in the IFB, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. We've been here.

[00:05:01] We've been here before. We've been here before. A little bit of Preacher Boys with Eric Skrasinski, some other ex-members from your group. But for those who are new, can you tell us a little bit about that and what your parents thought they were getting into? Because you didn't choose this church. Right. Yeah. So I was born and raised into it. My parents actually, my dad specifically, was brought into it as an eight-year-old boy. My grandfather had a conversion experience at a church that eventually became IFB.

[00:05:29] If you know anything about the movement, it didn't really gain popularity until the 70s. My dad was a teenager and eventually married. I was born in the 70s. And so he gradually became more and more involved and strict. And so I got to see, just because of my age, I watched the movement kind of become what it was. And so watching that goalpost move was something that came on gradually, I think.

[00:05:58] My grandparents were in it as well until they passed away. But they were never as extreme as my parents became. So yeah, it's a generational thing with my family. That seems to be a consistency with some of the religious ones. The grandparents kind of used it for what it was and it became extreme the next generation. Yeah. From what I've seen. Yeah. A lot of them, yeah. What was the initial thing that it was versus what did it turn into?

[00:06:25] Like, was it just a sort of a normal chill church and then it got more and more ramped up? Yeah. So the history of the IFB, I mean, depending on the kind of what strand or brand you followed, it has its roots in either American Baptist or Southern Baptist. And so they became independent Baptist because they believed that what was happening within those movements were, you know, they were going the way of the world. They were compromising on standards.

[00:06:51] They left the idealistic housewives of 1950s patriarchy and decided to go in a more liberal direction. And so these men took a stand that they were not going to let that happen in their homes with their families. And so it was kind of birthed out of this need to be conservative, I guess. Yeah. So that's where it has its roots mostly. I did not know that.

[00:07:17] We're learning, well, every episode, but specifically like we're constantly blown away by all the different offshoots of the- Well, one of the things when she was talking too, where are we hearing that now? It's normally someone who wants to- Keep things conservative. Keep things conservative and- Yeah, absolutely. Someone wants to be progressive. You know, it's so interesting because one of the things that really helped me understand my grandparents and my parents and the trajectory that our lives took was learning from history.

[00:07:43] And like, so specifically where I am in the St. Louis area, there was a woman named Phyllis Schlafly. I don't know if you're familiar with her story, but there's a dramatized version of her story. Cate Blanchett played her. It's a beautiful, I guess it's just a series on, I believe, Hulu called Mrs. America. And so she had this movement called the Stop ERA, the Equal Rights Association, in my area. So she's literally from St. Louis. We still have breweries named Schlafly, you know?

[00:08:10] And so she had this large movement and was very successful in doing so. Like she had hundreds of thousands of people on her newsletter. You know, this is back in the day where you stuffed envelopes, put stamps on them, sent them out with her propaganda and tried to stop what Gloria Steinem was doing. And so during that time, my parents were, you know, older teenagers into their early 20s. And we literally followed this path.

[00:08:39] And it helped me understand like, oh, they were inundated with this indoctrination, these ideas that they were going to literally lose their families to whatever evil is out there if they didn't do this. And then there was this bombastic preacher who came through named Jack Hiles. And they just caught his fervor. And they were like, oh, yeah, we have to do that. So they moved our family from St. Louis to Hammond, Indiana, where the mega church is.

[00:09:08] And my dad was trained under them. We were in their schools and kind of solidified our place in being IFB. Wow. So the movement that Phyllis Schlafly, did I get that right? Yeah. Was wanting to end equal rights, like, I'm sorry if this is super ignorant, but like, what would be, like from her perspective, what was the threat to equal rights? Like, it just put me in her shoes. I think a lot of it is really steeped in racism.

[00:09:37] It's not something that, you know, we love to talk about. But there was a political candidate, a woman, a black woman who was running and had gained a lot of momentum. And we were racist. I don't know how else to put it. And it was like, let's stop that. We already had all these private schools popping up because they were integrating black children into the white schools. Right. And so all of these private schools started popping up everywhere.

[00:10:07] And sorry, this is the 50s and 60s. Is that right? Yeah. So this would have been like the 60s. Yeah, 50s and 60s. And then when my parents got involved, it had grown in major popularity. So that was like the late 60s, early 70s. So, yes, you're right. The timeline, that's what that would have been. And so she just really saw that with women being liberated, there was this danger of the traditional family home. I mean, you know how it is.

[00:10:37] Like the way that they used to talk about the family men who aren't showing up in their families. And they would put it on, you know, the black community and try to save the white babies. Like truly, it was, in my opinion. And if you study history, it was very much steeped in that segregation and trying to stop all of this integration. So it's very dark, to be honest.

[00:11:03] But it's similar to when you read about a lot of the religious stuff that's going on right now is an extreme right. Conservatives are very scared of breaking up the nuclear family. And then they link the nuclear family to why America thrives. And then they go into the Judeo-Christian thing and ultimately leads back to religion. But they're pretending that it's not. Oh, 100%. Yeah, if you read, oh, what's her? Kristen Dumais, I believe her name is.

[00:11:28] She wrote a book called Jesus and John Wayne that really documents the history of all of this. Again, it seems pretty dark when you go through it because you see like what it is at the root. And that's hard. That's really hard to digest of it seems as if we bought the marketing program of these people who tried to make it all flowery and good. But at the root of it, it was evil.

[00:11:55] And I think that's truly difficult as a cult survivor or, you know, you see what choices you made, what choices your parents made. In my instance, what choices my grandparents made was for the quote unquote greater good. And I think a lot of that is happening even today. Like you said, Nippy, it's just like they're preaching at us like, oh, this is better. It's so much better for women to stay at home, you know, or whatever this is. Like you can save your family this way. And that sounds like a good thing.

[00:12:22] But at the, you know, in the underbelly, it's about oppression and keeping people silent. It might be a good thing, but it's not a good thing if you're not giving me the choice. Right. It might be good for some people. For some people. It's not for everyone. 100%. Absolutely. Like I don't regret my decision to, I stayed at home with my children for the first nine years of my motherhood. And then I went back to work when my youngest turned five, he went to school and I was like, okay, I'm ready to go back. Like, I don't regret that decision.

[00:12:51] That was right for me and my family. I would never, you know, take away that, you know, right for anyone to choose. But for it to be preached at because they know better than you, that's the dangerous area. That's the problem. It's coercive too. Yeah. It's so coercive. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. So you then moved from St. Louis? Yes. Yeah, I was a very young child. I was four turning five, I believe, when we went. So I was just entering school.

[00:13:18] And I was there at the megachurch in Hammond for until I was turning 11. I believe we moved my, yeah, the year I turned 11. And so we moved back to St. Louis and we found a church that was still within the movement. And so I just, I grew up in it. I was indoctrinated. I believed so much of it. I got in trouble just because like I was very imaginative and creative. And so I would be reprimanded for certain things.

[00:13:47] Just, you know, for example, like we played imaginary, what's this? The superheroes. Like I always wanted to be superwoman. And so we weren't allowed to actually watch television. And so when we would see stuff like that and use our imaginations, we'd get in trouble for, you know, role playing and things. And, you know, as a young kid, that's what you do. But I, so I kind of like developed a little bit of a quote unquote secret life. I knew how to kind of hide what I enjoyed and what I liked.

[00:14:16] So throughout my years growing up, and especially as things were taken away, like we didn't start off not having a television that was taken away. And so as rules got stricter, you know, even the dress got, the dress rules got a lot stricter. And, you know, I would hide those things. I would just bring a change of clothes when I was out with my friends as a teenager. Or I would, you know, have a Walkman back in the day and listen to whatever I wanted.

[00:14:44] And then put, you know, approved music in it when I was around my parents or something. So. Natural responses to oppression. You learn how to get around it. Yes. But my parents called me silently rebellious. So they knew because I did get caught every once in a while, I was very good at it. My brother got caught a lot more than I did, but I was kind of sneaky. And so, yeah, they would call me silently rebellious. Did you feel like you were rebelling against your parents or the church? Or both? Oh, God.

[00:15:14] It was God. I was rebelling against God. That's tough. It's one thing to rebel against your parents. Were you letting Satan into your heart? Yes. I mean, it was always like that, you know. I think that. So one distinction that Jack Hiles particularly had in this movement was that he believed in what he called eternal security. And so, like, once you've made that decision, it can never be taken away no matter what you do.

[00:15:39] And so, it was kind of, like, comforting to lean back on that and be like, well, you know, I did sneak out and go to the movie with my girlfriends, but I am still saved. I just disappointed God, you know. So God could handle a certain amount of disappointment. Yes, absolutely. God can handle a Walkman. Yes. God can handle a Walkman. Oh, so I have to tell you a story about that. I got a gift from my friend for my birthday. And my birthday is in the summer.

[00:16:10] And I was between going with my pastor. I babysat his children. And he used the ATI curriculum, the Gothard stuff, right? Advanced Training Institute. Yes. And I went to the conference with them to watch the children while they attended. And then I was able to attend some of the things with them. And I had taken my gift, which was a headphone set that was a radio transmitter so I could listen to the radio on it on that trip.

[00:16:39] And then when I got back, I had one day to do my laundry and go to church camp with my friends, right? And so I did not take that headset, which is contraband on IFB camp premises, right? So I just didn't unpack it. It was still in my bag. And when I had gone to the bathhouse to take a shower or something, my leader, one of my leaders went through my stuff to check to see what we have. Oh, yeah, this is common in the IFB.

[00:17:09] There is no privacy. And so she confiscated it. I had no idea. And I went to chapel that morning. And the preacher had my headphone set and started preaching about the evils of rock music and, like, crashed my headphones everywhere, slammed them on the pulpit, kicked them across the platform.

[00:17:30] And so I was made this huge example of because I would deign to bring headphones to church camp. What year would this have been? That would have been probably, like, oh, 89, 90, maybe 91. Yeah. Right? I was in high school. I think we were around the same age. Do you think that your pastor would have approved of my first tape cassette, which was Two Live Crew? Oh. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I remember my... I didn't approve of it at that age.

[00:17:59] My neighbor had Beastie Boys, and she was listening to it. I felt like I was going straight to hell when she turned her heart. I was like, oh. But didn't God provide the music? This is what I don't understand about God. How could God... I guess this is Satan. Yes. That's Satan's music. Yes. I mean, he is. Satan makes way better music than God. I'm going to go on the record and say that. I mean, God has some good music. He has a bad person. But Satan also has some good lyrics and lyrics. Satan flirts for the dark side. Yeah. Music was always... That's the thing I would get caught for and get in trouble for.

[00:18:30] Well, also, you know, cults do humiliation rituals, right? Yeah. You got humiliated. You were made an example of... Oh, my gosh. The number of times. Yeah. Take your Christmas gift. Smash it in front of everyone. Yeah. In the name of God. And other than getting caught and the sort of the secret life, what was daily life like? I'm assuming lots of church and going to... Like you already said, youth camps and stuff. No music. No music. Restricted clothing. Oh, we have approved music. And it did get progressively worse.

[00:18:58] Like, I remember growing up, we would listen to a lot of classical and that was never a band. But my parents really liked oldies. And for them, oldies would have been like the 20s, 30s, 40s music. And we would listen to the radio station. And that was all okay until it wasn't, right? Because we were producing more and more. And that's interesting about, too, the way the movement grew.

[00:19:22] They, as you could home grow your own, like, musicians and teachers and all this stuff, they would, it would morph into the, like, well, we can't use that worldly stuff anymore because we have our own. And so, I mean, we would have some music, but a lot of church, you know, Monday or Sunday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night was, like, that was just a given. You would always be at church on those times. And then you would have, like, a Monday night visitation, they would call it,

[00:19:52] a Thursday night soul winning. Visitation would be where you just go and, like, you would collect information from people that other church members had met. And then you would get their, you know, address and go and just visit them to see if they would like to join you at church. And then on Thursday... Physically show up? Yeah, physically show up. And then... It's aggressive. It is, yeah. Thursday nights, well, what's more aggressive is either Thursday...

[00:20:18] Well, usually Thursdays is, like, soul winning, which means you would go knock on a door, tell them you're in your neighborhood, tell them that you, you know, have good news for them, and go through the plan of salvation and try to win souls, literally what it sounds like, soul winning. And then on Saturday, it would be bus calling. And so we ran buses on Sundays, bringing kids to, mostly kids, to church. And so you would just go and you would visit neighborhoods and see if the regular kids were

[00:20:48] going to come on Sunday, just remind them, and then see if you could recruit more. Did you get points? Here's Sarah looking to Enterprise. How many stripes could I get? What's going on here? Can I earn some commission? Is there a church lounge? What'd you get? What are my incentives? Yeah. So by the time I was in college, that's when you would have to fill out what they called an activity report.

[00:21:14] You are required to have a minimum of those hours and those, like, conversations, which, I mean, it's so funny because when you think about it, you're like, you raised me to be a liar. Like, literally. How is this all possible? Because every Monday, I would have to, like, say that I had a full conversation with somebody and went through, like, the five steps or whatever it is. I don't remember anymore. But yeah, it's like, no, I did not do that every week, but I always lied about it. Oh, yeah.

[00:21:44] You know. I'm with you. We had to do that two ways. You do all this laborious data entry about our sales calls. What was that program that Keith created? The, like, data entry? R-S-M. Yeah. No, R-M-S. R-M-S. R-M-S. Raniere Management System. Oh, okay. Yeah. Which is just documenting your lies. Yeah. Exactly. And I also learned to lie. Because also, no one was checking and there was no way to check. Oh, we got checked. We definitely got checked. You got checked.

[00:22:10] Yeah, because, like, you, if you missed a certain amount, you got demerits. That was another thing in the schools. Like, you could get demerits for anything. If the teacher was in a bad mood, you got demerits. But yeah, so you get demerits. And then I don't know how it is these days, because I've heard that it's all changed. But back in my day, you would get, I think, 50 demerits. And you could get campused, is what they would call it.

[00:22:34] And so, like, you had all of your, like, rights stripped, basically, which for a girl was, like, you can go to the cafeteria. You can go to the, like, on-campus restaurant. And I think that's basically, oh, well, like, you go to the bowling alley or, like, you know, the activities on campus were all taken away. But you weren't allowed to go off campus anyway, most of the time. Like, you had to have a pass to leave.

[00:23:00] So it's just, like, if you got 50 demerits, you can't have any fun. Prison. Yes, sounds like prison. When you look back, was there a particular moment that something happened that was, you know, confronting or a red flag that you felt like this wasn't right, but you didn't have the tools to articulate that? Yeah, well, so I think so, yeah. I think there were a few moments like that.

[00:23:27] Growing up, I would have those moments of contrition, but it would just be because I thought I was the problem because I was always this way. And so when I was in my early 30s, I believe, I had been living overseas and no one over there was like me. And so I had a daughter and I was raising her and I was really struggling. Like, my husband was not raised in this.

[00:23:55] You know, he's European, so we lived in his home country. And so... Wait, you're still a believer at this time? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you can take the girl out of the cult, but can't take the cult out of the girl for a while. So you'd left your community, but you were still... Yeah, yeah. ...considering... Were you not pressured to marry someone in the community? Like, what was... Oh, yeah. Do you want to hear that story? Yeah. And I'm sorry, we interrupted you. Do you want to finish that other story first? No. I mean, we can...

[00:24:22] I'll come back to it if that's okay because it kind of will follow the timeline better. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I started college in 1993 and communism had, you know, recently fallen. My husband is from Romania and part of the Eastern Bloc countries. And so they had a revolution. Their leader was assassinated. And there was an influx of people coming in to proselytize. My people found him.

[00:24:52] He already spoke English. He was, you know, rather privileged. His dad was part of the Communist Party for a while. And so he was very well educated, knew English already. And they were like, we will pay for you to come to school. Come this way. Like, you should be with us. And so, you know, it's a hard thing to pass up. Like, they brought him over and they took him to Disney World and showed him all these places. And they were like, we'll pay for everything. Yeah. Love bobbing. And so he's like, cool. How old was he?

[00:25:21] He was 19? 18? 18. He was 18. 18. So he said yes. He came over. And I met him the second week of school. And we just became friends. We worked together because girls were not allowed to work off campus. And he, as a foreign student, was only allowed to work on campus. And so we got to know each other because we both worked in the cafeteria. And he, within, I don't know, two or three months, was like, this is Christian communism.

[00:25:49] He literally said that to the guy who became the leader, Jack Scott, to his face. And he's like, I'm out. You know, this is crazy town. But by the end of the school year, you know, we had fallen in love. And so he actually did not come back our second year. And I was like, I'm not okay here without you, you know? But my parents wrote him a letter and said, you can't be with her if you can't hack it here.

[00:26:19] Like, this is who we are. And so she's not allowed to date you unless you come back to the school. And he did, you know, kicking and screaming a little. He enrolled in just a few classes that would, you know, make him eligible to stay until, I think, for like a semester or two, he did that. And then we got married so that we could, you know, stay together. That's the story. Yeah. So he was, what was it? P-Mobile. Physically in but mentally out.

[00:26:49] Correct. Like, from the get-go. From the get-go. Hey, Kalti listeners. As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together. And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us. That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self-Publishing Agency, or TSPA. Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out,

[00:27:17] the Self-Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline. You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world. So if you're like us and you have a story or a message that's burning to be told, we highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner. They offer everything you need from expert editing and eye-catching cover design to marketing and distribution strategies that really make a difference. They make the entire process seamless and inspiring, so you can focus on what matters most, telling your story.

[00:27:46] Go to theselfpublishingagency.com. That's the S-E-L-F publishingagency.com to start your very own publishing journey today. Enjoy. This podcast wouldn't even exist without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons. Come find us on Patreon. We are at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

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[00:28:44] Yeah. And was he just sort of waiting for you to figure it out? Oh, he really was. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's so interesting looking back because I never would have realized this early on. But because of his experience growing up under communism and the oppression that he had and all of the things that he had seen in his life, we had a very similar experience, you know.

[00:29:06] And so he understood what it meant to see what a regime is like and disagree with it and survive and maintain healthy relationships for the people who did buy in. He was extremely patient and loving and wonderful.

[00:29:24] And, you know, at one point we had a talk about like, well, whoever is more concerned or dogmatic about a specific belief, we will lean into that out of respect for one another and just go that direction so that there's not discord in our family. Like, for example, there's this huge thing about rated R movies in my home, right? And so we were never allowed to bring a rated R movie in to our house.

[00:29:51] We would screen heavily the movies that we brought in. And we even had this box. Have you guys heard this before? There's this little, it's called the TV Guardian. And it would bleep out any word and you could put it on like strict. And it would like leap out butt if you didn't want the word butt. Like not just ass, not just, you know, so where words. It would bleep out. I think we need this in our house, Nibi. We need it on you.

[00:30:20] It translated sex into hugs. So my brothers had the best time with like making up, you know, scenarios with hugs. It was great. Anyway, so yeah, we were very heavily monitored about all of that stuff. Anyway, I don't know where I was going with that story. So you were saying that this was a belief. And so how did that play out? Yeah. Right. So the strictness of our belief, I, you know, it's like I saw him watching an Arnold Schwarzenegger

[00:30:48] movie or something when I came home and we were like newly married. It was our first big fight. Like I could not believe that you brought this trash into our home. You know? Hugs. Yeah. A lot of hugs. A lot of hugs. Heavy hugging. Oh my gosh. And so I think that was when the conversation took place. Like I will respect you. Like if this is how you feel about it, then that's okay. That's like not a hard thing for me to give up.

[00:31:13] And there was no like combative attitude toward anything with him. He was just very gentle with like, oh, okay. If that makes sense to you, then I'm okay with that. And I did not grow up that way. Like if you've seen clips of Jack Hiles, he held a rifle in like a long nose rifle in the pulpit while he was preaching about, you know, scantily clad women of all things.

[00:31:35] So, you know, it diffused a lot for me and allowed me to go through my own journey of releasing bit by bit. And it happened while we were still in school because there was a huge campaign about Jack Hiles saying like the King James Version is the only inspired word of God. And my husband was like, I speak Romanian. Like, you know, what about my translation of the Bible? Like that doesn't make sense. Like from the jump, it doesn't make sense. Does this guy know what he's saying?

[00:32:05] And that made me think, you know, I had to think about that. It's like, oh, well, that's true. And that can be wrong. And once I was allowed to think that, well, that could be wrong. What else? Progressively, yeah, was able to examine bit by bit. Well, once you're on the journey. Yeah. And love was the thing that got you out. That's right. Love is all you need, baby. I got goosebumps. But was there a particular moment or was it just a slow untangling for you to wake up?

[00:32:34] Yeah, it was definitely a slow untangling. But there were a few pivotal moments. So back to the story I began earlier. We had been living overseas for probably seven, six or seven years. And I had this growing sense of like, I have abandoned my people. You know, nobody here lives that way. I don't have this community that I've had growing up. And so I'm going to take my daughter and I'm going to return.

[00:33:02] We returned to a ladies conference and they have activities for young girls. I think Michaela was probably eight at the time. I remember sitting in the auditorium. I mean, it seats like, I don't know, 5,000 or so. And I was in one of the last rows in the very back, just kind of looking down at the pastor's wife. And she was saying like this very formulaic. And I knew it.

[00:33:27] I knew that she was saying like, if you get up in the morning before your husband and you have your makeup on and your hair curled and you give him breakfast and coffee, then he will never stray. Like he would never be able to like leave a person like that. So if you have not done these things, then don't be surprised. Right. So they're teaching us to do these. And I just had this moment of that is complete bullshit.

[00:33:57] And I have my daughter here. And I was just like, there's no way. That's not real. You know. And there were a couple of moments at that conference in particular that I was like, yeah, I'm not going to raise my daughter this way. Good for you. Did they put demands on men in the same way? Like what did they tell the men? What was the male version of that? You know, I would have to ask my husband a little bit more. I don't think that they had it a lot growing up.

[00:34:27] Like when the boys were younger, my brother got to do a lot of stuff that I never would have imagined that I could do. Just, you know, regarding curfew or driving a car or going out, you know, with friends and all this without any chaperones or approval or yada yada. Right. But in college, we had these things called split chapel. And they would preach to the women. The women would preach to the women. And then the men would go and get preached at as well.

[00:34:56] And so what their programming was, I really don't know. I assume it's more like they were preaching be macho and, you know, lead your family this way. I don't know. I would have to ask. Okay. So then how did you eventually, like, did you have a big escape or do you just sort of slowly drift away? What was your departure like? Well, I had a nervous breakdown. Oh, okay. What triggered that? Yeah.

[00:35:22] So I had gotten more active on Facebook because, like I said, I was feeling a loss of community just because I was overseas, not because I was like, see ya, I'm out. And I saw that there were some of the girls wearing jeans and, you know, items of clothing that wouldn't be approved. Which, by the way, I was responsible for the you can no longer wear sleeveless shirts at Hiles Anderson College. Thank you so much. But anyway. Sorry, girls. After me.

[00:35:53] Not allowed. Anyway. Yeah. So I saw that these, you know, there were people that I knew that went to college with me who looked like their beliefs had shifted as well. And then so Jack Hiles had passed away. His son-in-law, Jack Skopp, had taken over. We had actually made a family trip back to the States and we were in a service with Jack Skopp once.

[00:36:19] And he called us out a little, I mean, just as far as like an introduction, you know, hey, you guys are here. Why are you in the country? That kind of thing. And after all of it, there was just a sense. We left there and I told my husband, I said, I can never go back. I can never go back. I don't know what's happening, but it's not okay.

[00:36:39] And so, you know, after he had risen in power, built an enormous new building, like the one I grew up in sat 5,000 people. The one he built sat like 7,000 just because he had to be bigger and better. And I knew that something was awry, but I couldn't put my finger on it. And there was a Facebook group started by a woman called the Sisterhood of the Traveling Coulottes.

[00:37:08] Because that was back in the day when it was, you know, there was that movie that was big called the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. And we weren't allowed to wear pants. We could wear culottes, though. And so... Sorry, Nippy, do you know what culottes are, Nippy? It's a split skirt. So it's like, it's a split skirt. So you have, it looks like a skirt, but it's like pants in the middle. But it had to look like a skirt for us. Yeah. It's sort of a cheat around the no pants for us.

[00:37:37] They're like baggy, baggy, baggy pants that look like a skirt. Right. Correct. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it got to the point to where we could only wear them if they were like pleated and like actually looked like a skirt. Like if you could see the split in the middle, like those started to become not approved. But anyway. Can I just take a quick tangent there before I hear the rest of the story? Yeah. It's just so crazy that like the metaphor of that, you can't walk on your own. You can't have your physical autonomy to walk the way you would want to and wear pants if you want to.

[00:38:07] Like that's having a split between your legs. Yeah. What is it? Like it's just so fucked up. It is. Sorry, I know you know this. It is. We would joke later on. I mean, it's a little dark humor, but we would say that it's just because they wanted easy access, you know, with all the sexual abuse. Exactly. I mean, it's just there's so many wrong things about it. Anyway. Okay. So Sisterhood of the Traveling. Yes. Cool. Facebook. Facebook. And people started sharing their stories and their beliefs.

[00:38:34] And I, you know, got on the phone with a few of my old friends and we started chatting. And then Jack Scott, the scandal with him and abusing an underage girl came to light. And he ended up going to prison. And that, I think that was kind of the last thing that snapped the tether, you know, that was there between me and that belief system.

[00:39:03] And I mentally broke down. I spent probably about three and a half weeks in bed. So. Wow. It was, yeah, a pretty dark time in our family. I mean, I think coming to the realization when you say that, like, oh, this isn't true. It does thrust you, at least for me. It thrusts me into this thought of is anything true? Is anything real? Because it's all I knew. Right. Shelly.

[00:39:32] It really pulls the rug out. Those are the exact words. So we're doing a thing for our Patreon right now. We're rewatching the episode with someone who hasn't, of the vow. Who doesn't know anything about it. Who doesn't know anything about it. And I was never going to watch it again. I saw it when it came out. But the first thing I said in my first interview was, like, what's true? Yeah. So that was, like, I mean, I didn't have it probably to the magnitude that you did. Because we weren't raised in it.

[00:40:00] But, yeah, that's a real, you have to ground yourself in something. Yeah, and nihilism is so attractive, isn't it? When you're like, nothing matters then, you know. So how do you pull yourself out of that? And how's your healing journey been? I'm so lucky and so grateful. Because I had a partner who said, whatever you are dealing with and whatever you need to do to deal with it, I'm here for you.

[00:40:30] And so I had a lot of physical ailments that were coupled with this period of time. I didn't realize that they were connected. You know, I don't know that you do at the beginning, at the time anyway. And so I was dealing with a lot of health issues. And that's why, you know, it's how I ended up just bedridden for a little while. I got some treatment. It was really hard to get through. And I would encourage anybody to just keep trying different things.

[00:40:57] Because, you know, a psychiatrist, I had a psychiatrist look at me and be like, you just need to drink, like, more coffee in the morning and, like, get with it. I was like, cool. What? Wow. Clearly not trauma-informed. Who gave you your license? I know. She's just like, okay. She's like, well, clearly you're not completely crazy. But, you know, you could use a little boost. And I'm like, awesome. Yeah. Get your B12s in. It'll be fine. Yeah, some coffee. That's fucking sandwich.

[00:41:23] But I had every scan imaginable done, you know, MRIs, CAT scans. I had ultrasounds on every vital organ, you know, just all the things trying to figure out what was happening to me. One thing we kind of skipped over is I did suffer sexual abuse as a young child. And so when I went back to Hammond for college, where, you know, the sexual abuse took place, I had temporary paralysis.

[00:41:51] And so I was treated for some stuff during my college stay because of that. Again, we didn't know that it was related psychologically to the sexual abuse at the time. But that reoccurred when I had basically that breakdown of, you know, I'm losing it. Nothing's real. And so I basically slipped back into that temporary paralysis at times.

[00:42:19] And so there was a lot of, you know, investigation going on at the time trying to figure out what was happening to me. But ultimately, I had a friend who said, you know, I know this lady who does a Japanese, traditional Japanese something or another, what do you call that therapy? And she, it's a combination of adjustments and massage called Yume Iho. Yume Iho.

[00:42:49] Yeah. And you can go see her if you want. But I think because my, my, I was very stooped, you know, like my head was, I wasn't able to lift my head up all the way. I had dark circles under my eyes. And it got really bad. My speech started to slur. I wasn't getting enough oxygen to my brain, basically, is what they told me later. But so he's like, don't go back to America because, you know, you're going to get on a plane without seeing her.

[00:43:19] I really recommend that you, you know, go. And because all of these, all the, all these treatments for the most part happened in Romania. And so I was like, well, they don't have the answers here. I could go to Germany or I can go home. So I was like, I'll just go and stay with my mom for a while. And then, you know, we'll try to figure it out. And so before I did that, I went to that treatment and on the table, I really thought that, oh, and I told her, I'm like, I think I'm going to die. Like my head just felt like it was going to explode, but she adjusted me in a way,

[00:43:48] you know, after a long session, about a 90 minute session of massage, she adjusted me in a way that just had so much rushing back to my head that I felt like it was going to explode, like so much, you know, blood. And so I went to, I canceled my plane ticket and I went to that treatment in succession for about every other day for about two weeks. And then for the rest of my time that I lived there, I did that every single week. Wow.

[00:44:18] So I maintained my. That's amazing. Maybe every month at the end. Yeah. And then even here, when I moved back to the States, like I maintained, you know, massage and adjustments because I know that works for me. But I also added to that one thing that I found that is just so healing, very impactful for me is sound healing. And if you've ever done a sound bath, I just, it hit, helps my nervous system in a way that I'm just so grateful for.

[00:44:47] And I've done so many things. I've done EMDR. I've done Reiki. You know, like that's, that's always my advice to people. Like just do it all. Like figure out what helps. If you, yeah, figure out what helps. And there will be seasons probably that it will help more than others. Like the first sound bath I had, I literally had a vision of my young child self, you know, and like, I don't have that every time. I go every week now. So, you know, no, that doesn't happen every time. But it works. It helps me so, so much.

[00:45:17] And I'm really grateful for the treatments I found. Yeah. I'm so glad that you found something that works for you. And I thought I knew all the different healing modalities and I've not heard of. Um. You me iho. Yeah. You me iho. It's Y-U-M-E. No, hang on. Is that right? You me. M-I-H-O. Is that right? You me. Yeah. M-E. You me iho. You me iho. You me iho. Yeah.

[00:45:46] You should look it up on YouTube and stuff. It's very interesting. I mean, I swear by massage and also I do have done a lot of cranial sacral, which resets my nervous system when I'm stressed. I do like deep cranial sacral slash have a nap with this amazing naturopath in Vancouver. I saw him last week when I went for Thanksgiving. Dr. Perduti Springs Eternal. He's amazing. Shout out to Dr. Perdutz. Yeah. Just to backtrack for a second.

[00:46:11] In regards to the abuse, did you ever get a chance to confront the abuser or have any justice there? And was it someone in the church? So, yes, it was someone in the church. He was underage from what we have gathered, you know, now being older and looking back. So he was underage as well. So likely abused himself.

[00:46:32] And I was probably, I think I was 13 years old and at church camp, another church camp story, when I realized what had happened to me. I actually did not understand because though it was talked a lot about and, you know, preached a lot about, no one ever explained what sex was.

[00:46:56] And so it wasn't until I was at church camp and a guy was, you know, screaming from the front about, you know, different things and, you know, regarding sex and being very explicit. And I was like, oh, like that's what happened to me. Like that is literally what happened. And so I went to a leader and told her about what had happened.

[00:47:23] And she took me directly to the pastor and had me repeat the story because that's protocol in, you know, obviously a woman doesn't know how to do anything. And so you have to take it to the man. And, you know, the pastor has to deal with this situation. And so it wasn't until I was 13 and it happened when I was somewhere between the ages of four and five. When it happened. Yeah. So. I'm so sorry, Shelley. Jeez. Thank you.

[00:47:56] Thank you. My parents, to their credit, when I got home from camp, my parents were called into the pastor's office and I was forced to repeat the story. I didn't get through a lot of it. So, you know, the pastor told my parents a lot of it and my parents supported me and asked because I think within that we were still within a window of that statute of limitations.

[00:48:23] And so they asked, do you want to pursue this? Do you want to do anything? My mom in particular, she was also a victim of sexual abuse in her young life. And so she wanted justice if I did. But, you know, I refused. I said, you know, that I mean, I was 14, 13, 14 years old. I'm like, no, you know, who wants that? So it wasn't something that I pursued. I did look him up in my adulthood.

[00:48:49] And I think part of me has always wondered and wanted to just like have a private investigator follow him because he was like a coach and a traveling coach, you know. And so it's just one of those like it's amazing what you can find out on Facebook, A. But B, it's just like, did he ever change? And your hope is yes, because like, you know, I had never grown up to be a perpetrator.

[00:49:18] And my brother, who also had the same experience, he wouldn't mind me saying because we talk about it publicly together. But he was also sexually abused by the same boy. We were left in his care as a babysitter. So that's how that happened. Right. And so, you know, it's just like, do you just hope for the best or do you like try to follow up and be like, hey, could you investigate this guy? Just in case. I don't know. Does he have a family? Do you know? I always wonder. Yeah, he does. Yeah.

[00:49:47] I mean, seems like a nice family guy on Facebook. What do you think? Oh, it feels like to my stomach. Yeah. It's hard because you just, those questions, I think, I'll probably die with. Oof. So sorry that happened to you, Shelley. And I just hope you can get closure in some way. Thank you. For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir.

[00:50:16] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife. And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culti sponsors. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast. Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culti. It's a good one.

[00:50:45] So when did writing become part of your recovery process? Yeah, I think I have always found writing to be a very happy place for me, a place for me to kind of figure out what I think. And so I started writing at a very young age. In fact, I wrote a poem to Jack Hiles when I was like eight or nine. And I still have it, a letter from him.

[00:51:12] And he complemented my writing skills. And I think that was real motivation for me because at the time, you know, we idolized him. We would make him popcorn and cookies and take him his favorite things on Sundays. Our family was not financially stable because my dad was in college and we were all in the private school and stuff. And so we just really did not have a lot. And we would make homemade gifts and take them to his office.

[00:51:42] People would line up at his door and like knock on his door. And you were lucky if you got to see him. And, you know, anyway, so for me to have a letter that complemented my writing was like huge for me. And so I just it was a skill that I always grew and thought, you know, that maybe one day I'll be a writer. And my dad was also a poet. Also, I use that term loosely there because I don't publish any poetry. But my dad did. And he was very prolific.

[00:52:10] Like when the Internet was just this burgeoning new thing, my dad was one of the first ones. He very computer savvy. Like growing up, I had a home computer in like the early 80s. And so he was just all into all of that stuff. And so he was voted in online forums in the early 2000s as favorite poet and got a book publishing deal.

[00:52:35] And so he was a published poet and I would always like aspire to be like him, but I wouldn't share a lot. And then he passed away suddenly in 2011. And I found that the only way I could cope with all the emotions I was having, because during that time, I had recently shared with my family. You know, I'd worn pants for the first time in front of my parents just years early, like two or three years before my dad died.

[00:53:02] And so just dealing with all the emotions of like, oh, shit just got real. Like he's gone and I can't have these conversations with him. And then I found online in some places where some of his published poetry was and I read it. And I was like, this is what you thought? This is like you believed a more liberal stance politically than you ever let on? Like why would we never have this conversation?

[00:53:29] And so the only way I found a way to process my emotion was through writing a novel, a story. And it's about time travel. And I just wanted to capture the sense that I think everyone has of can't we capture that one moment in time that we would give anything to go back to? And what does that look like in my life? And so I wrote a story.

[00:53:57] Well, I have not read that one, but I did read your most recent, The Cheating Wife? A Cheating Wife? The Cheating Wife. The Cheating Wife, yeah. So good. I just finished it this morning and it was quite emotional at the end. Really wonderful book. Thank you. I stole it from Nippy. Unfortunately, he did not get a chance to read it. I'm sorry about that. That's okay. I apologize. I still have it. He could. He could read it. You should read it. But it's really, for our listeners, can you give a little summary of what it is? Yes.

[00:54:27] Well, I can tell you a little bit of the backstory that inspired that book. In 2022, I was on the phone with my husband. I was in LA for something for work and he was here and he was walking the dog and he's like, oh my God, oh my God. I'm like, what is happening? And he's like, there's Cheating Wife spray painted on someone's property. And I was like, what? This happened in real life. I swear to God. This is in the book. Yes, in real life. Yeah, it's in the book. So just to be clear for the audience, you're not the Cheating Wife. This is not a memoir.

[00:54:56] I am not the Cheating Wife. This is not a memoir. This is something that inspired the story. So then, okay. Correct. And then did you try to figure out how this could have happened? Well, you know, it was just jarring, right? And I was flying home, I think, that day. And by the time I got home, it had been spray painted over. And I was just like, who does that? I know. A lot of, right? Like a lot of chatter had started to emerge.

[00:55:23] Like, you know, people were giving their opinions like, serves you right if you cheat on me. And I was like, what is this? It's like, does anybody know who she is? A. B. Like, who is the jackass who just did that to her? Because that's abusive. Like, what? Is this the modern day version of the Scarlet Letter? And then like three days later, I go to George and I'm like, I'm going to write a book called The Cheating Wife. And he's like, okay, but like, could you put by Shelley Snowportia instead of just like

[00:55:52] on your other books, it just says the title and then your name at the bottom? Because then that would look weird. And I was like, yeah, I can do that. That's what I did. But I really used a lot of material from my time walking with women through nasty divorces of like the guy being a pillar in the community, you know, and only the people who know them

[00:56:20] behind closed doors know some of the abuses that happen. Yeah.

[00:56:52] Mm-hmm. happen here, obviously. Women are totally respected here. And I saw a lot of similar treatment. And so I kind of infused that story of the role that the system, the church itself played in maligning the woman because of, you know, a forward facing perception, instead of investigating

[00:57:21] to see what the story actually is. And what's interesting, within two weeks of my book coming out, I had gotten at least two separate messages, one from my phone, and one was an encrypted email. And they were from two different women who identified themselves. So I knew they were real. And one of them I knew personally. I was like, oh, wow. And the one on my phone said, hey, this is,

[00:57:48] and she said her name. This is my burner phone. So my husband doesn't track me. I just read your novel. And that's my story. With every turn of the page. Wow. That was my story. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. And then the email was from a woman who was actively escaping. I got the sense reading it that you'd pulled from many places personally. And I didn't know, obviously, that you'd,

[00:58:16] that your husband had seen the graffiti and that was real for somebody. God, that was real for somebody. It's not just a book. But everything that you mentioned and that you described, you know, were experiences that Nippy and I have seen on this podcast with, you know, coercive controlling and abusive. I mean, it's usually, it's unfortunately, it's usually men. It's not always, as we know, but usually. Right. Yeah. Well, it's men abusing other men too. Yeah. And making them obedient to the narrative. And the

[00:58:44] church seems to be an extreme version of what goes on societally. Although in society, a lot of times you have an authority you can appeal to, which is normally another man, unfortunately. And that didn't seem to exist in the church, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, you're so right. And I always say this, like, you know, for the people who question or kind of push back on like, well, why do you talk about the patriarchy? And, you know, it's just like, the patriarchy is good for no one. I don't want my

[00:59:13] sons in it. You know, it's not fair for them. It's not fair for you either. Like as a man, you know, you should not be taught that these attributes are instinctively, you know, who you are. The softer side of you is not permissible because you're a man and you're macho. And like that, it's not good for any of us. Right? This, it's just, it's staggering the number of people

[00:59:44] or men. I don't think I've ever had a woman say it, but the number of men who will just be like, oh my God, like, is your husband okay with you writing a book that's called The Cheating Wife? You know, I'm just like, yes, yes. Do you want to know what it's about? It's just like, what? But, you know. I won't give away the ending because I want our listeners to read the book. And for those of you who want a little break from the cult content, but still some overlap

[01:00:09] in course of control and, well, I could say cult of one, you know, cult of one dynamics, fiction, and yet very real. Please do read this book. I really enjoyed it. I was captivated. I was gripped. I was riveting, I think is the word I used. Oh, you're going to go with riveting? I was riveted. Well, I couldn't put it down. I listened to it. I listened to your audio version, which was great. And I wanted to share something with you. And I'm not sure when this episode's

[01:00:37] going to come out in relation to the one we did with Dr. Coachella. Do you know her? Dr. Christine Coachella? No. I feel like you two need to be friends, but- Oh, wait. Yes, you do. I think I've heard her name. I probably follow her. She's the one who introduced us originally to the term coercive control from Dr. Evan Stark, who was the original person who came up with it. We learned about it through her. And this is just different stories of women in the court system dealing with family, the family court system and

[01:01:02] how the abuser often becomes, you know, does Darvo and becomes the victim. And then the women who are reporting the abuse often lose custody. So this is like a really hard book to read, but super important for you to share with the women who reach out to you is what I'm telling you about it. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I just, yeah, it's really, it's important. And also like, I think it's important to read

[01:01:27] fiction that is fiction, but also you can learn something from, you know, and- Well, fiction shows it, doesn't tell it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. I mean, as a writer, that's what you hope. You can witness it. So it's like, you know, I think a lot of people when they hear the patriarchy thing, a lot of men feel like they're being attacked. And I don't think that's the case. I think it's more, you have to expose it and shine a light on it. And through fiction, you can see the light on it and then you can be more objective about it and relate to the story

[01:01:55] because stories are what everyone can take in. Yeah, absolutely. I find so much safety too in fiction. It's, you know, it's easy. To mark it, to just be like, oh, this is a story and then get it in the hands of people. And then that's where, you know, I've often said that I write fiction to speak the truths I am otherwise unable to utter. Truly, that is how I feel. Because any woman's story,

[01:02:24] though, you know, Morgan, the protagonist is a compilation of women I know, any one woman who would have been exposed would be in danger. Though they are not currently in the situation that they were in when they were, their lives could have been in danger. They are removed from it. But as a society, the stigma that a woman would carry from being revealed as someone like this,

[01:02:52] she would have to, she would suffer in some way or another, whether it was at work, online, you know. So the safety I find in telling the truth through fiction is something I think I'll always be obsessed with. Yeah. Wow, what a gift. And who do you think your book is for? What hope do you think people will get from reading it?

[01:03:13] Yeah, I think that, oh gosh. So my book, I think, is for specifically for women and men who have had some experience within a, you know, mainstream church system. Because I think from what I can see, they're all the same. And that will really resonate with them. And I hope there's a character that I created in there after a real person. Her name is Jenny. And she was supportive. She was in

[01:03:42] church and still supportive. And I thought it was so imperative for me to see those people who are in the system and are so good. They're good people. And I want those people to see themselves and know that like, they can do better. We can all do better. We all have a part in this. And let's see that the women are suffering. And let's be that person. I want to be Jenny. You know what I mean?

[01:04:09] And so I think that's really who it's going to resonate most deeply with as an audience. And then the hope that I want them to find within it is, you know, just some of those validating messages I get when women say, thank you. Thank you for highlighting us. Thank you for seeing me behind all these closed doors. I didn't think people would ever believe me. But by reading the story,

[01:04:35] I literally had someone speak out and tell a group of women what she was dealing with in her current situation after reading my book. You know, and that means everything. Yeah. It means everything. No, it makes, in fact, one person that way, it makes it worth doing. You're creating. For sure. So in addition to what you just said, how else has your experience in a cult affected your writing or

[01:05:01] your artistry? It's hard for me to separate anything outside of it because I was born into it. You know, I think I, it's all of my writing has been laced with my experience, even the time travel trilogy. It highlights interpersonal relationships and this eagerness to just believe what the people are telling her to do. My protagonist in my first novel is she's so, my daughter calls her annoying.

[01:05:31] But she's, yeah, she's kind of gullible and just kind of goes with what people tell her and has this like sense that she has to fix everything because, you know, she's got to keep her family together. And so you can definitely see, I actually went to a book club once where they had read my first book and a lady was like, so I checked you out online and I see that this is your background. And she's like, do you think that Anna is the protagonist name, you know, made all these choices because

[01:05:59] you were, you know, born in a cult? I was like, yes, thank you. And I mean, I love, I love going to book clubs too, because it's just like, I have all of my idiosyncrasies are within one character or another. So I'm like, oh, this is great to be psychoanalyzed. I want to hear from everyone, you know, so I think it's all. I wasn't so bold at the beginning to claim that I was speaking of

[01:06:24] things that were questions I had about life, about God, about the cult, you know, in my first one, because I had never come out publicly with anything yet. I didn't come out publicly with my story until 2020, you know. And so for people to see it in retrospect is kind of fun. But now I'm very bold with it. And I can say like, I think in this past novel, I wrote everything that in the beginning,

[01:06:50] I was afraid to say, truly. Yeah. What shifted you from being afraid to being bold? I think it was Eric from Preacher Boys. Yay, Eric. Yay, Eric. He is only, I think, two or three years younger than my oldest daughter. And I was like, what? It was just one of those things like, wait, this is still happening. Like there's a guy trying

[01:07:13] to take it down. Who's 25. Like I think it was 25 at the time. And I had a like 22 year old. I was like, what? And so it was a wake up call for me, I think. I was like, I have, you know, this platform, I'm gonna write about it. Like this is good for you. Thank you. I actually started writing a memoir. And gosh, that's hard. I think fiction's harder, but I don't know. I haven't tried. Do you?

[01:07:40] When I think about it, like pull stuff out of nothing versus just this is what happened. It seems different processes. One's creating, one's exploring yourself and probably going to places that are difficult. That self-exploration thing. Exactly. It's like, whoa, that self-exploration thing. Whoa. And you have to come to terms with telling the truth about people. Yes. And that's hard. Yeah.

[01:08:07] Well, you're the one that I read and I'll have to read the time travel series, which I know you sent to me when we first connected many. Oh yeah. When we first met. Yeah. Yes. I apologize that I haven't read them yet. Probably because they weren't specifically cult content and that seems to be all I have time for. But now that I've read The Cheating Wife, I will go back. Whatever happened with the spray paint? Did you ever get answers to that? No, there are still specks of blue on the driveway.

[01:08:36] Wow. Ever drop off the book on her? No, because I don't, and you never know how somebody would react. Yeah. It's just like, will she see that I, you know, and like, this is my assumption. I have no idea. Like, could it have been the angry lover, you know, like telling the husband? I have no idea, you know, who did it in real life. So I don't want to speculate about that. And you never know how somebody's going to feel about taking that inspiration and making it something

[01:09:05] it may or may not be. So yeah, I've never followed up with that. So now that you're an advocate for survivors of spiritual abuse, what resources and advice can you share for our listeners? Yeah, I love working with an organization called Living Cult Free. And we have some online resources available for survivors. We are just a developing nonprofit right now. But one of the things that

[01:09:30] we do is we partner with Jaret Bullion, who you know, and she has the writing to reckon classes. And so we're partnering with her to offer more for survivors that way. And we're trying to raise funds to get some scholarships for that. And just developing more and more resources in the future. So you can check it out at livingcultfree.com. Wonderful. And those listeners who have been with us from the beginning will remember Jaret from season one. Season one.

[01:09:57] Season one. Yeah, her book, An Everyday Cult is fantastic. And her workshop is fantastic. And if our listeners wanted to support those efforts and donate, where could they do so? On the website? Yes, on the website. Yep. Livingcultfree.com or .org. Either one will go directly to us. And you can donate there. You can purchase. I think the symposium is up right now. You can get access to that. Amazing. So the writing.

[01:10:23] And, you know, our podcast has lots of advice for people who are cult survivors, but specifically spiritual abuse or religious abuse survivors. Any particular advice you have on the healing journey? Yeah. I think that exploration is allowed. I think that for me, the constraints were really tight. And being able to remove those, even piece by piece or one by one, it felt dangerous.

[01:10:50] And I think it was when I allowed myself to believe that it was possible and I would be safe. It was really where growth started to happen. There was a moment I remember where I really felt the deepest betrayal from the cult was when I understood that I could trust myself. Mm-hmm. And it was devastating and liberating all in one moment. And if you can just get to the place

[01:11:19] where it's like, oh, you can, I can trust that this decision is going to be okay for me, even if it goes wrong, because people make mistakes, but I can trust that I will know next time. What a gift. What a great story. Thank you guys. I'm so glad we finally had a chance to talk and so good to see your face. I'm so happy for you and a big fan of your book. Where can people find you if they want to follow your work?

[01:11:48] Yeah. I have a pretty unique name, so you can Google me and I'll be there. Shelley Snowportia. Yeah. It's ShelleySnowportia.com on social media, except for TikTok, which I don't really get on because my kids are like, mom. But anyway, yeah, I think I'm Shelley Wright Stories on TikTok, but on every other platform, I'm just Shelley Snowportia. So you can find me. Amazing. Thanks for your time. Please keep in touch and come visit. Thank you, Shelley.

[01:12:17] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty? Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're a little bit susceptible. Just share the love. Thanks. Great episode. It was so enjoyable. One of those episodes where I was like, we're just having a conversation and we get to share it with you all on the podcast.

[01:12:46] Also, we've had obviously thousands of conversations for at least a few hundred that have been documented. And normally people come in with wisdom, but I think it's our job to kind of extract more. And I think she has more than she knows. Yes. Do you know what I mean? A very... She's super interesting and has a lot of experience and she's writing about it, which I think always helps people put language to the abuse. And she was great. Very wise woman and a good friend and somebody I hope we get to collaborate with more. Word to Big Bird.

[01:13:16] Thank you so much for sharing your story and your healing process, Shelley. It's really incredible how powerful creativity can be in overcoming trauma. And we hope that your story continues to inspire other survivors. Should we call this episode Breakfast in Bed? No. Make sure to pick up a copy of Shelley's novel, The Cheating Wife. And for any listeners struggling with religious trauma, you can find support and resources at livingcultfree.com. Thanks everyone for listening and see you next time. Bye.

[01:14:04] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios and our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. And the artist Johnỳ believe in about us for a wonderful event of meditation for everything that we did with Claudia China. Care for freedom of the Kingdom. We recorded an A Little Bit Может for a particular event for future generations. Outro music byورie Cronoани快