The Army of Survivors: Grace French on Empowering Athletes

[00:00:00] I'm going places, but I don't need to travel far to get there. I enrolled in fall classes at the new SLCC Harriman Campus right here in my neighborhood. And I'll save big on tuition. See you this fall. Enroll today at slcc.edu slash Harriman.

[00:00:15] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization,

[00:00:28] business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:51] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:01] Like, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. Oops. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:32] This episode needs a major content warning about childhood sexual violence. Please listen with care to all survivors of sexual abuse out there. We love you and we are so sorry to bring up this story again, especially if it causes pain.

[00:01:45] But what we do want to do is hand the mic to the indomitable Grace French, the founder and president of the Army of Survivors. Grace French first learned to dance as a creative self-expression. Dance for Grace was both art and athletics.

[00:01:58] But the course of her dancing career in a culture that sexualizes young girls did not center wellness nor orient towards welfare. Instead, her quote unquote doctor repeatedly sexually assaulted her. And hundreds of other girls and young women. And you all know the culty shit that happened.

[00:02:16] Even after multiple reports, the FBI who botched the investigation, the monstrous now defamed USA Gymnastics physician kept on traumatizing young girls. Go USA. That rapist, let's just call him what he is, is now in prison for life.

[00:02:31] No thanks to the FBI and a culture that continues to dismiss women and fails the most vulnerable among us. We know that we were very lucky to have such a good experience with the FBI. But not everybody is as lucky.

[00:02:43] And Grace French brought that to the world's attention. And if it wasn't badass enough to call them out for their failures, Grace French is now working to transform this culture of abuse through the Army of Survivors, founded by sister survivors in sports for survivors in sports.

[00:02:59] Go USA for real this time. It's a great honor to have you with us, Grace French. Welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Hi Grace. Hello. How are you? So great to see your happy, beautiful face. Thank you. I'm grateful to be here.

[00:03:27] It's sunny out in Michigan, which is unusual at this time of year. So I'm just grateful to be here. Amazing. Well, we've been wanting to chat with you for a while now.

[00:03:40] And even before I knew of you in the Survivor space, both of us, and I'm sure many of our listeners were aware of this massive case. It was peripheral to ours. Peripheral, yeah. Which actually was sort of happening as we were also coming forward. Similar results too.

[00:03:56] Yeah, with similar results, which we'll get to. But for those people who don't know much about your story or this case, what would you like to share to set the foundation of your journey? That's a good question, Sarah.

[00:04:08] I think how I'd like to start is when I was young, around five years old, I had a dream of becoming a professional ballerina. I was in awe of the way people moved on stage. I was in awe of the athleticism that it took to perform.

[00:04:30] To be this sparkly princess on stage was something that I always wanted to do. I set my sights on becoming a professional ballerina. Within that, I also did training within recreational gymnastics. I was dancing as I grew up, probably by the age of eight or nine.

[00:04:51] I was dancing 10 to 12 hours a week. And as I got older, that only grew. My summers were taken up by summer intensive. Starting at the age of 10, I got to go away for summer camps for three to four weeks at a time, just intensive dancing. It was pre-professional.

[00:05:08] Around the age of 12, I started being what I would call pre-professional in the ballet space. Along those lines, because of my intensive training, I often would get injured, which happens with all athletes, especially as we're learning. We get pushed a little bit too hard.

[00:05:26] Our bodies are a little bit stressed, so we get injured. At 11, I had a bad wrist injury, actually not from sport, but from the playground. I was playing Red Rover and my wrist was sprained.

[00:05:41] We asked around everywhere for the best sports medicine doctor in the area, and everybody said the same person, which was Dr. Larry Nassar. At 11, I started to see Larry. I was abused at that first appointment and continue to be abused throughout my time.

[00:06:00] My mom was in the room for all of my appointments as well. Larry was a master manipulator. He was able to stand in certain angles so that my mom couldn't see what was happening and talk through it.

[00:06:15] He was talking to my mom, getting updates on my life, on our lives, what we were doing outside of the clinic while also abusing me. But my impression as a young athlete was that I was receiving osteopathic manipulation,

[00:06:28] and I didn't understand that what I was experiencing was abuse. But what he was doing was not osteopathic manipulation because it didn't help me and help my body. And so I continued to see him repeatedly for the same injuries because I was not healing.

[00:06:44] He had good rapport with all of the coaches in our area and all of the dance teachers and figure skating coaches and all these people who are really ingrained in this world because he would send athletes back into the sport sooner than other sports medicine doctors

[00:07:02] so that they would continue to get injured and then continue to go back to him. In 2016, people started to come forward about their own abuse that they had experienced. And then in 2018, when the sentencing happened and I started to see some of the dancers that

[00:07:19] I had grown up with come forward and tell their stories, that's when it really clicked in me that what I had experienced was not osteopathic manipulation. It was actually abuse. And I had to rearrange the entire perception I had of me growing up.

[00:07:35] And things started to make sense. Like I used to have stomach aches that were unexplainable. I used to have this really uncontrollable fear of going to the doctor, which led to several hospitalizations because I just did not want to go see anybody.

[00:07:50] I really started to understand more about me when I understood that what I had experienced was abuse. So his coercion tactics and his manipulation tactics were such that he was able to facilitate

[00:08:03] his abuse in front of parents while in the room, while convincing you he was doing medical practices, send injured athletes back early to ensure that they would be back in his office and he had a reputation of being good at what he was doing all the while. Yes.

[00:08:20] That's an amazing summary. Wow. He was master of that cycle. And other doctors couldn't tell that he wasn't doing what he was doing or is that's the psychology you've ascertained since this, that that's what he went into the field to do, do you think? I have no idea.

[00:08:36] Wow. But there are early, early reports of him doing the type of manipulation that he did that is abuse and he would film it and he would film it. And he had a clinic and I'm using air quotes, he had a clinic in his basement and he would

[00:08:53] have children come to his basement so he could do hour long manipulation sessions where he was abusing those kids in his basement and he would take videos of it. And that was ultimately part of his conviction was the child pornography, correct? Correct.

[00:09:11] That's what ended up getting him in handcuffs. I have so many questions. It's just the psychology around getting a medical degree, knowing you have this affliction and being able to convince people around you. Is affliction the right word? Compulsion? Disorder? I don't know what it is.

[00:09:30] You can call it whatever you want. I have my own words that I'm not going to use. Had you ever expressed to your parents you didn't want to go? I guess you say you didn't want to go and that's what, and then you... Well, instinctively it sounds like...

[00:09:40] Instinctively it sounds like you knew something was wrong but you intellectually couldn't articulate it. Exactly. I often felt like I didn't want to go until it was an urgent situation. That said, the first time that I remember penetration happening, my mom asked, you know, what are you doing?

[00:09:58] Because he had asked me to like, because I was sitting and he had asked me to like lift myself up and like put myself back down. And he's like, oh, can you feel a difference? And my mom had asked, you know, like what are you doing? What's happening?

[00:10:09] And he had said, I'm pushing a pressure point on her inner thigh, which I knew at the time was not true. But I was like, maybe that is true. And I just don't understand medical terminology. So I just didn't know what was happening. I mean, I was 12.

[00:10:23] I was young. I had no idea what was going on. Yeah. No. Why would you? And someone you just implicitly trust is abusing trust. I was in a place of power. And as an athlete, all I wanted to do was get back to dance.

[00:10:35] Like, I just wanted a doctor's note so that I could go back and continue towards my dream. There was no part of me that was like, I hope he writes a note that I get to sit out for eight weeks.

[00:10:45] It was always like, I hope my note is for like a week of dance so that next week I can be back in the studio. Next week, I can be back on the floor with my teammates.

[00:10:55] I just want to go back in time and pull you out of that doctor's office. As a mom, I'm just so mad right now. I'm sorry to have you think about these things again. That's okay.

[00:11:07] I do this work because I want people to understand that we can do everything in our power to be there for our children, but we have to change the systems in which these people operate in order to prevent this from happening.

[00:11:22] It's not just about somebody being in the room. A lot of people blamed parents when it came to it in the first few months of the story coming out, but there's so much more that we can do and there's so much that we need to do.

[00:11:36] I mean, the other part of the story that I think is so frustrating to me is that the first report of his abuse to the university was in 1997. I was two years old at that time.

[00:11:54] If somebody had listened to those children when they had come forward, I would not have seen him. Mm-mm. So going back in time, why were those abuses overlooked? How did he get away with it then?

[00:12:05] So allegedly in 1997, when two athletes reported to a gymnastics coach at MSU, the gymnastics coach chose to ignore their reports and continue to send gymnasts to Larry and say that they were just looking for attention is what I heard.

[00:12:28] Following 1997, there was a 2014 Title IX case that happened, and then in 2015 it was reported to USA Gymnastics and the FBI, and I continued to see him in 2015 after both USA Gymnastics and the FBI knew, and I was abused in 2015 even after MSU, USA Gymnastics

[00:12:51] and the FBI knew that he was abusing children. What are they missing? How did they fuck this up? Yeah, like, I mean, I understand he has a reputation. Was he able just to smooth things over with people and like there were so many parents

[00:13:04] in the room that didn't see anything? He was so charismatic and he was so well-liked in the community that even while these investigations were going on, he was running for the school board and got a ridiculous over 50% vote, ridiculous amount of support from the community for this man.

[00:13:21] He had this rapport that followed him everywhere. Even thinking about his offices, he had signed pictures from Olympians saying like, oh, we miss you. Like, we're so thankful for all that you've done for us, Larry, that he would hang up on his wall.

[00:13:35] And it was always like everybody's goal, and I've heard this from several survivors too. It's always everybody's goal to be on Larry's wall. Like you want it to be good enough to be on Larry's wall.

[00:13:44] And I think from the institutional perspective, people just didn't believe that this was happening. They thought that it was, they probably thought it was osteopathic manipulation as well. They just thought- Well, you also have to go against your own experience of the person if he's charismatic.

[00:14:03] And again, this goes to what I've said this on many of our podcasts, good people don't project into the dark of other people that they have this going on. It's hard to imagine. It's hard to imagine that someone presents themselves like this, is getting caught ostensibly

[00:14:19] by certain people. And then doubles down on the persona that he knows would have other people. Most people who have some sort of fear or rational fear, when they get caught, they get scared. These people don't. No, he seemed very arrogant from what little I know of him.

[00:14:35] And he's not the only one. Listen, our podcast looks to see where culty dynamics occur outside of more- You've hit on some red flags. Just so you know. Yes, specifically the charisma and the rapport and creating a persona that people trust.

[00:14:52] And then using the authority in that structure as a dangling, dangling the carrot of this could be you, you could be up on this wall, you could be an Olympic athlete. And how that desire and leveraging the desire of a beautiful dream that you have in order

[00:15:10] to cover abuse. I mean, that is like textbook cult leader, just heads up. That's the same structure, same dynamic, cult of Larry. I can see that. I can see that. Had you seen that before?

[00:15:25] I had processed a little bit of it, but I think it's really hitting me now. I think what I understood is that a lot of the dynamics and things that he put into the

[00:15:37] world were consistent across perpetrators, but I didn't quite connect it to a cult as well. It's an abuse of power that- Well, it's a little bit culty. It's a little culty. It's the tactics. Yeah, it's a hand start title. It's the tactics they use.

[00:15:57] They're not, God, it's complicated, but not, but, and at the same time, there are just consistent parameters that the abusers use in order to get away with what they're after, which is that dark thing that's running it.

[00:16:14] But they also understand they have to have a persona to hide that dark thing behind. And then dangle the dream to keep you coming back, to make it look consensual, to make it look good, because you keep coming back.

[00:16:26] So how could it be bad what he paints for the world? Not in reality. Also, do you want to be the person that takes this person who has this reputation down? Do you want to be that person? Yeah, let's talk about that. What was that?

[00:16:38] The fear around standing up to someone who's so beloved is what it sounds like. You said that his name was mentioned as the go-to guy. Yeah. I think, I mean, Rachel Denhollander was the person that came forward and really was able to push this case through.

[00:16:56] I think when the media started reporting on it and when we got more public support was when some of the Olympians started coming forward and saying, this is what I experienced as well. The damn breaks. Yeah.

[00:17:12] What is so hard in other situations is that they don't have the privilege that I had, which was 500 plus athletes who are type A. So keep lots of records. Generally, very motivated.

[00:17:29] And honestly, we had a lot of privilege in our race as well because a lot of us were white women and we had been in this world for a long... It makes me fear for those who do not have those privileges, how terrifying it would

[00:17:51] be to stand up by yourself. Yeah. Are you okay? Yeah. It's so scary. It really is. And what you've all done is so brave. Privilege aside, I mean, that is a good point, but you still did it and you didn't have to. Thank you.

[00:18:15] This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons. Are you with us? Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a littlebitculty for bonus episodes, exclusive content and the occasional Zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes.

[00:18:30] It's a lot of fun over there, people. I've been craving this one roasted beet salad that I always order at one of my favorite places in Atlanta. And it got me thinking just the other day, how great would it be to get that level of

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[00:20:14] He's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism, and a secret therapy group that ruined lives. Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. Break time's over people.

[00:20:36] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culti. It's a good one. So what was it that Rachel presented that was a turning point in this case? Was it a physical proof? Well, who's Rachel first? Oh yeah, sorry.

[00:20:49] Tell us who Rachel is and what she did. Rachel Dunn Hollander is a mother and a former gymnast. She is also an attorney, which I think helped significantly in the turning point in this case. In 2016, she came forward with incredible amounts of documentation regarding her abuse

[00:21:13] that allowed another prosecutor to then be able to begin to press charges and look into and investigate Larry. I think most people don't have the privilege of meeting Rachel, but if you've ever met this woman, she's incredibly quiet and thoughtful and very succinct in everything she does,

[00:21:37] very detail oriented. She was able to bring a lot more evidence that allowed somebody to begin to say, I can take this on and I can take on this giant of a man with the evidence that's presented from Rachel.

[00:21:57] From there, we were able to have more and more people come forward. In the end, I believe there were six survivors who were part of the criminal case. Then there were over 500 that were part of the civil case. 500? You were part of the civil?

[00:22:20] Yes, I was part of the civil case. 500 spanning over how many years? The first survivor that I've heard and spoken to was in approximately the late 80s when Larry was still a resident. 500 that we know about. Do you suspect there's more than 500? Absolutely. In fact, I know that.

[00:22:43] Yeah. Yeah. I know we're jumping around a little bit. For you, when the penny dropped, tell me about that moment when you realized this was not osteopathic manipulation, but it was in fact sexual abuse. How did you put that together? What was that like in that moment?

[00:23:00] The first moment that I put everything together was when I started to see some of the dancers that I had grown up with come forward and give their victim impact statements at the sentencing. Their stories were extremely similar to mine.

[00:23:15] That allowed me to better understand what I experienced. It was shocking to say the least, but it allowed me to better understand myself and how I had experienced childhood because a lot of the symptoms that I had demonstrated

[00:23:34] were consistent with CPTSD and of those who are sexually abused as children. So I was able to, even though I didn't know that I was being abused, my body knew and was reacting that way.

[00:23:51] That allowed me to have some validation as well that I wasn't, air quotes, just crazy. It felt like to me, that's what I was repeating to myself, this is ridiculous. Why are you scared of going to the doctors? Why are you scared of all of these things?

[00:24:10] Why is this make your heart race? It allowed me to better put together my life and it's allowed me to better heal moving forward because I can go to therapy and understand the root cause of a lot of these things. Who was the first person you told?

[00:24:26] My mom. Yeah, we had a little breakdown together. Did she believe you? Absolutely. Yeah. That's good. That's oftentimes the hard part in these cases. It was hard and I think it was hard for her too because she was in the room for a lot of the treatments.

[00:24:46] Did she seem suspicious? Did it confirm her suspicions at all? I think it did. I think it, especially with that comment about the pressure point on the inner thigh, I think she started to put pieces together.

[00:24:57] And then after I reached out to my mom, I reached out to the dancers that I had seen give their victim impact statements and just said, thank you. Wow. Are you still in touch with them? Yes. They're wonderful people.

[00:25:07] They have moved on to wonderful lives and one of them's out on the West Coast doing amazing things and another is in Michigan still and has started a family. I'm glad we've had this conversation because for me, even after my experience with what

[00:25:23] or our experience, what we went through, watching the videos of and the testimonies and everything that's gone on, I still didn't have a solid grasp on how he was getting away with what he was doing for so long. You've actually put language and described it really, really well.

[00:25:39] How do you think now the ecosystem with how he was able to get away with this abuse where no one saw it, suspected it, or maybe in various degrees people did, I'm sure it's case by case.

[00:25:52] How has education of those systems say at MSU, the Olympic committee, even our legal system, how has it evolved and how are they more educated if they're more educated now?

[00:26:03] So if Larry Nassar were to enter that ecosystem today, would he be able to get as far as he did or are there checks and balances in place now where they would find him sooner?

[00:26:15] Do you think, and do you think we're there and how much work needs to be done in your estimate? That's like eight questions, Nipi. Yeah. Well, the question is- Do the best you can.

[00:26:25] The question, to sum it up is it was a certain way where he was able to do what he's doing. Now do you think he could do it today? I think there have started to be some changes in these systems.

[00:26:38] For example, I was part of some of the advocacy for a federal bill that allowed more trauma informed practices to be implemented within the FBI, specifically around child abuse cases. I think with the IOC, I think they're doing a lot more work on how to respond to somebody

[00:26:57] who does come forward about abuse. So there isn't re-traumatization once somebody does come forward. I think that said, there's still so much more that can be done in those systems to create safer spaces and to create prevention strategies that actually work and then quicker intervention.

[00:27:18] Right now what we're seeing specifically with the US Center for Safe Sport is that when a report does happen within the sports space, they often take years to respond and investigate. In that time, those people are still interacting with athletes.

[00:27:36] So yes and no, I guess is my answer. Yeah, that sounds about right. I want to ask more about that and just curious if there's anything that's important for us to know in your story from how you went from watching people testify to realizing what

[00:27:51] had happened to you to what you're doing now. That was six years ago that you figured it out? So what's that six years been like and how have you decided to live your life now that you've endured this and survived it?

[00:28:06] One of the most amazing things that happened as I came forward was that I found a lot of support from the women who also came forward at that time. Granted, I did have people say to me flat out they didn't believe me or that we were

[00:28:19] all wrong and attention seekers and looking for the money, but I figured out who my real friends were and gained a whole new sisterhood of people who were in this fight with me.

[00:28:31] And a lot of us found a ton of healing in advocating for safer spaces and advocating for those changes that you're talking about that would allow no more Larry's to exist in this world. So with that, around 40 of those 500 plus survivors came together and we created this

[00:28:50] shared vision for the future. And that's where I was able to begin the 501c3 nonprofit, The Army of Survivors. I like to say it was a little bit selfish because we were doing it because it felt healing. We were doing it for ourselves.

[00:29:05] But in the end, I know that we've impacted more people than just ourselves in this creation of this nonprofit. We've had survivors from around the world talk to us about how the work that we're doing

[00:29:19] is impacting their daily lives and how it has helped them heal as well. So I'm very grateful to continue to do that work through The Army of Survivors. What does it do? What's the mission and what kind of work does the nonprofit do?

[00:29:34] Our mission at The Army of Survivors is to bring awareness, accountability, and transparency to sexual violence against athletes at all levels. A little bit of a mouthful. And we do that through creating educational programming, providing resources, and doing advocacy for athletes as well.

[00:29:54] So we do advocacy in multiple parts. We have a legislative advocacy that we do, but we also do advocacy for survivors who are coming forward within the US Center for Safe Sport System, within other institutions

[00:30:07] that may or may not believe them when they first come forward so that we're standing behind them and they do have an army that's with them like I did when I came forward. Wow. I'm so glad that you all have each other. I'm extremely grateful for that community.

[00:30:23] Yeah, we know what it's like to feel alone and to lose community and also what it's like to- Find out who your friends are. Yeah, find out who your friends are and to find community on the other side.

[00:30:34] I am so curious, in preparation for this episode, we saw some footage of the trial and some of the key moments from the trial. Were you in the room? I was in the room, yes. What was that like for you to hear his sentence?

[00:30:52] I can't say I was one of the people cheering when it happened. I wanted him to be in there for longer. I know it was technically a life sentence, but I was like, he should have got in way longer.

[00:31:05] I think some of the most harrowing moments for me were his apology or whatever you want to call it, which was awful. That was an awful moment. It was. Yeah, it was. Tell our audience if they haven't seen it. What was that?

[00:31:17] There was a moment where Larry stood up during his sentencing and I believe to this day it was manipulation of the judge to try to reduce his sentence because he was trying to basically repent in that moment. He kept doing circles.

[00:31:39] So he would stand in one spot, but he would turn around and look at the gallery where all the survivors were sitting and then he would turn back to the judge and continue. And then he would turn back around as he was speaking.

[00:31:51] And he was saying, sorry, I'm sniffly. Spring allergies plus crying. I know it just happens. He was saying, I'm sorry. And all of these things that were making all of us sob. And eventually the judge said, stop turning around, which I'm extremely thankful for because

[00:32:12] it was re-traumatizing in that situation. And then his letter went on to say that, I forget the exact verse, a Bible verse about a woman scorned. Hell hath no more fury like a woman scorned. I think it was actually Shakespeare. Well, that was his...

[00:32:29] Well, either way, it's disgusting. Well, the judge read that part. Yeah, the judge read that out. The judge wasn't having any of his apology. The judge was like, well, you say you're sorry. And yet in this letter- She was great. I love her. That was like-

[00:32:41] She lowered the boom on him. That was great. You can't write that. You can't write that in a script. Well, you could. You could, but it was just so good. You could. You could just copy that transcript and it would be- You could.

[00:32:50] Has there been a movie made? There have been documentaries made, but no movies. given how Hollywood likes to just make movies on everything. A lot of life rights there. But maybe it's better that they don't. A lot of life rights, yes. Yeah.

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[00:34:04] I've been craving this one roasted beet salad that I always order at one of my favorite places in Atlanta, and it got me thinking just the other day, how great would it be to get that level of culinary satisfaction at home?

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[00:35:18] Go to cookunity.com slash culti or enter code culti before checkout for 50% off your first week. That's 50% off your first week by using code culti or go to cookunity.com slash culti. Enjoy. Break time's over people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:35:36] It's a good one. It was just so obvious that he was being manipulative and that he didn't actually think that he had done anything wrong. Yeah, the judge saw that and I think that's, I mean, I felt vindicated for you, you know, and the other survivors. Yeah.

[00:35:53] That was quite the moment. He just wanted one more moment of power over us. Yeah. And to say that he was apologetic, to grant you that relief, again, yeah, such a manipulative.

[00:36:07] Well, it is one of the things I do like about our justice systems that you get to look at the accuser and the perpetrator and read your victim statement to them. Did you do a victim statement? I submitted mine written, but I did not speak.

[00:36:22] I had just put pieces together two days before sentencing. So I was not in a space to look at him and say these things. No, I understand that. Circling back to the state of sports in general in the US and, you know, looking at it through

[00:36:38] this lens of a little bit culty, is there anything else that you've seen in the dynamics that are problematic or other abuses of power that keep these types of, you know, predators in place?

[00:36:51] I think the entire culture of sports is something that allows perpetrators like these to thrive. We have in sport this idea that if there's no pain, there's no gain. This idea that we have to push through injury.

[00:37:09] And a lot of that comes from the fact that athletes have a finite timeframe in which they can be professional. So if this is your love and this is what you want to do in the long term, you have to train hard, train through injury.

[00:37:26] And I say have to, it's not necessary, but that's how the culture is at the current moment. Especially in sports like dance and gymnastics and figure skating, where professionals who are going to the Olympics are still in high school.

[00:37:44] They are still children, but they're at the peak of their athletic career as the system is today. And I think it's unfair of us to put that pressure on children to push them that hard that soon. There's additional pressures that athletes face outside of that.

[00:38:04] There's additional things like the expense of being an athlete allows for perpetrators to have more coercive control over athletes. The amount of time and the individual coaching that you get also allows for more access for perpetrators.

[00:38:23] I think there's so many things within the system and culture of athletics that allow for abusers to thrive. It really is going to take a system overhaul from the grassroots coaches up to all the institutions

[00:38:39] and the way we respond in order for us to fix the system and create safe spaces for athletes, which is what we're working on. We're doing our best over here at the Army of Survivors. Yeah. And you've done so much.

[00:38:53] I meant to ask earlier, and our audience knows that we had a very, fortunately, a very different experience with the FBI. But what were they criticized for initially? How did they botch it, this investigation in the first place? Yeah, well, the FBI was looking into it.

[00:39:11] And from what I understand, the FBI investigator, a person looking into it, was actually offered a job at USA Gymnastics. And then the case sort of got put on the back burner. Wow. Yeah. Has that person ever been held accountable?

[00:39:30] They are, from what I understand, no longer with the FBI. But other than that, I don't think so. There is a current tort case for those who continue to see Larry after 2015, which basically just means we're suing the government for negligence. That's happening now? Happening now.

[00:39:51] Well, we won't ask you anything else about that because we know how that goes. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. We'll be very delicate with that subject. Well, Grace, you're now a dance coach, correct? As well as leading this nonprofit? Wow. So you're a guardian.

[00:40:07] Doing my best, yes. How has your experience changed how you coach, do you think? Pretty much in every way, I think. I didn't coach before. I was a teacher's assistant before I came forward, but I don't have something to compare

[00:40:23] it to, but I'm always cognizant whenever I walk into the studio of the power that I hold. I am very careful about making sure to ask permission for any touch corrections that I do. I make sure that my classes are observable and interruptible.

[00:40:39] I make sure that the dancers ... I try to make a safe space so the dancers feel like they can give me feedback and change the way that I coach based on how they're perceiving it.

[00:40:52] And yeah, it just has changed the way that I approach it and the way that I view injury as well. As soon as somebody says, this is hurting, I'm like, sit down, don't continue training.

[00:41:04] So it's changed a lot of how I approach coaching and it has hopefully made me a better coach as well. So what do you think now that other coaches need to know and young athletes need to know? What wisdom would you impart on them now?

[00:41:17] I would say to trust your body and to not be afraid to say no and to be willing to give feedback to coaches and to the systems in which you operate. I think that's an athlete's greatest power is giving feedback and listening to their

[00:41:42] bodies and saying no when they need to. I think from a coaching perspective, what's important for them to understand is that they need to be setting an example of what trauma-informed, not toxic coaching looks like.

[00:42:00] Even if they have the athlete's best intentions in mind, if they're displaying behavior that could be then displayed by a perpetrator, that gives that athlete less of a chance to point out those tactics.

[00:42:18] And what I mean is we have to set a straight and narrow example of what it looks like to be a good coach because otherwise perpetrators are able to get away with more faster.

[00:42:33] And what would you tell somebody if they've had the experience that they've tried to say no or tell somebody, an adult, what happened and they're not believed? What should they do next? Find somebody else. Don't cry on me. See, I get that I'm the crybaby. Sorry.

[00:42:50] It's like so upsetting and so inspiring at the same time. It's just like so many emotions. I know. Welcome to my life. Thank you for being such an empathetic listener, both of you. Of course. We've been there. Yeah.

[00:43:11] And you know, I don't know how much you know about our story, but we weren't believed the first time either. So it's a different type of abuse and a different type of trauma. But I know what it's like to not be believed. So I'm with you.

[00:43:25] I'm with you and I'm so proud of you. And I hope we get to meet one day. I hope so too. That'd be lovely. Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything we didn't ask you that you want to share with our audience?

[00:43:38] How can they find you and your nonprofit? They can find our nonprofit at thearmyofsurvivors.org and on Instagram and Facebook at the Army of Survivors and then on Twitter at Survivors Army. Amazing. Thank you, Grace. Thank you, Grace.

[00:43:54] Please know that you have allies in us and continue to do this work. It's so important and so needed. And I'm sure that there's impact out in the world that you don't even know and may never know.

[00:44:05] So I hope you feel good about what you're doing and wishing you all the best. Thank you so much for having me and for making me feel so safe in this space. I appreciate both of you. My absolute pleasure. Thank you. You like what you hear?

[00:44:22] Please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen. Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there. Smash that subscribe button. You know what to do. Thank you so much, Grace. We hope that you all enjoy this episode.

[00:44:39] I personally was vaguely aware of these things going on when it was happening, but to do the deep dive with her just made me want to reach in through the Riverside slash Zoom to hold her hand and high five her because she's a real.

[00:44:53] It's also one of those things where you don't, you feel like you've heard it, you've heard it, and then you hear the extent of it again and how it can happen in plain sight. So the education can always deepen and always continue. Right? Exactly. Thank you everyone.

[00:45:06] We hope you are having an incredible summer. Please do comment on Instagram, Patreon, wherever you're listening. If you're missing us, you can find us over there for bonus contents on Patreon or on Cameo if you want a special hello from Sarah Nippy. Just to brighten your day.

[00:45:21] So schmied. Till next time. Thanks everyone. Sinking down to the depths of the ocean. I'm hanging on to the wave of my love. If I let go of it all, I could leave, but I know I won't. Thanks for listening everyone.

[00:45:43] We're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss this episode. In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely for general informational, educational and entertainment purposes. It's not intended as a substitute for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice.

[00:46:01] For cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world, check out a little bit culty.com slash culty resources and don't miss Sarah's Ted talk called how cult literate are you? Great stuff.

[00:46:14] A little bit culty is a trace one 20 production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard, Jess Temple Tardy and our theme song cultivated is by John Bryant.