The Erhard Effect: Anne Peterson on Landmark (Part 2)

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[00:01:17] Hey everyone, we are back with part 2 of our conversation with Ann Peterson who's recently published a memoir of her 20 year experience inside the landmark worldwide ecosystem.

[00:01:28] Back up and listen to part 1 if you haven't already.

[00:01:31] And if you haven't gotten your hands on a copy of Ann's memoir yet, you'll want to read it for a deep dive into landmark slash Wernerland.

[00:01:38] It's titled Is This a Cult? Confronting the line between transformation and exploitation.

[00:01:43] And not just confronting that line, she's kicking some doors down and not to spoil anything but according to her memoir and we are paraphrasing here.

[00:01:52] Werner airhards whole vibe is a bit of a shit show to put it lately.

[00:01:56] Ann's talking to us and was also recently on the Seek Safely podcast because she wants the public to know the truth about her journey in and out of the weird world of Werner Airhart.

[00:02:06] She also wants you to know that Elgats can really mess you up and that Werner Airhart may be a mountain of a man in the self-help world.

[00:02:12] But he's also a bit of a volcano too. And according to her, people have been burned.

[00:02:17] One last thing before we crack into this part two episode, we just want to say to landmark Dear Sweet Well Intention landmark before you unleash a cease and desist or an army of bots on us.

[00:02:27] We're not saying you're all bad. We think you could be great. But it also sounds like you have some serious housekeeping to do.

[00:02:34] Time to learn and grow. We believe in you. You got this.

[00:02:38] Here's part 2 of our chat with Anne Peterson.

[00:02:42] Welcome back everybody.

[00:02:47] We left off at a real cliffhanger cliffhangers. What is going to happen to Ann in this massive complex large group awareness training? How do we even describe it?

[00:03:06] The WWW the wacky world.

[00:03:11] Yes, well, we'll go with that. We're just trying to invent the Internet too.

[00:03:16] Yes, there's rumors. Did he claim that? He doesn't claim stuff like that. He lets other people claim that for him. Yeah. No, we heard that Keith Henry invented the browser.

[00:03:26] Oh, no, it was the teleconference. Oh, both know is the browser too. And I was at he invented the browser.

[00:03:32] Anyway, what was your first impressions of WWW?

[00:03:35] I first met him when I was still working for landmark but I had given my notice and I was being asked by Carrie Granger to help.

[00:03:45] She's now a part of the Mike Jensen Werner Steve team and developing this course for academia leadership development course based in ontological approaches.

[00:03:56] So I go to Texas A&M where they're over the summer. They were hosting a course of the being a leader in the effective exercise of leadership in its early stages and they introduce the dean there names Marty Louder was good friends with Mike Jensen.

[00:04:12] She's introducing Mike and clearly loves him and they're connected because they're these big academic people.

[00:04:19] And then she goes to introduce Werner. She's in the middle of her introduction and Werner this tall, very distinguished.

[00:04:27] His posture is like crazy and peckable and distinguished man steps forward and says I'm the guy with absolutely no credentials whatsoever because it's academic world and they're going through all their credentials.

[00:04:40] And for me, what was startling is his voice because his voice was identical to Harry his brother and I had known Harry for a number of years now right because I've been working in landmark.

[00:04:53] And when I went to work in the we didn't talk about it exactly but the wisdom division which is this little side division that's where I went on staff and led programs for the majority of my time there.

[00:05:04] And Harry used to come into our meetings and talk until I knew Harry so this distinguished dapper older man steps forward and like Harry's voice comes out it was really startling for me so I had to keep shaking my head.

[00:05:19] And I think that was the moment when I actually like I had known logically that Harry was Warner's brother we had so been told again and again that Werner had nothing to do with landmark which I now know that's not accurate but it was like startling to me to really get like oh whoa wait there brothers like kind of the same people almost is how it merged for me in that moment.

[00:05:45] Yeah, and so I did the course at the structure of it was three days of course two days off three days more of course long days were at Texas a and M in this academic setting.

[00:05:55] The whole time I'm like watching this ghost that I had heard so many rumors when I went to work in the wisdom area most of the leaders in the wisdom area had been around during the S and where are hard associate days they all had they would sit around at our social events tell their Warner stories so it's like this mythological creature was now in front of me.

[00:06:15] And there was a moment there was this crazy moment i'm watching him watching him and I'm like okay okay yeah you know.

[00:06:23] And watching for like this wow huge wow because everybody would go on and on about him i'm like right but to me the worders were the people that I had been trained by that I had worked with you didn't have them on the same pedestal I didn't have them on the same pet exactly but there's this moment where somebody in the course asks.

[00:06:43] And so I was like this is a question about meaning I don't remember exactly what it was but it was something about meaning and we're in this academic auditorium so it's very steep and you're in these little chairs and I'm on the aisle and Warner comes up the aisle and he puts his hand on my shoulder and he's talking to the guy that behind me a few a row or two and down the way.

[00:07:06] And then he says a four minute or three minute explanation of what is a core distinction or core thing in the forum called empty and meaningless so it goes like this life is empty and meaningless and empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless a little word salad for you but essentially nothing right there is no inherent meaning there's only the meaning that we give it.

[00:07:31] And other long spiritual concept that gets twisted and put into human potential context but while he's standing there I start crying I don't even know how to describe to the state but I'm like tears are coming and I just had this profound experience of probably what I would have called I don't know if this was what it was but empty and meaningless like it was wild I had a couple kind of wild experiences like that in that course just of just being deeply moved or deeply impacted.

[00:08:01] Emotionally looking back what do you think his intent was by putting his hand on your shoulder and saying those words do you think it was like on purpose or honestly this is like it a beast so cynical I don't know if it was on purpose he knew who I was and he knew what I was there for so whether he did on purpose I don't know but honestly I think it's mostly because I was on the aisle and I'm a pretty girl.

[00:08:21] Okay, I was there to tell them if there was a way to do this program and make the money that they were at that time supposedly spending personally to develop the program so I was going to be I was a little bit their golden goose potentially I don't know whether he consciously saw me is that or not.

[00:08:37] Especially at that stage in that culture there's always this kind of thing that you're the acolyte he's the God you're the acolyte and that's true even in the forum leaders there's a kind of culture there that the leaders always need to hold themselves a little bit separate so that they have the listening required to impact people.

[00:09:00] So you got to have people looking up to you have people revering you a little bit so that you can intervene with their thinking.

[00:09:07] That's not ever said or taught that way that I experienced directly some people told me they were taught that in certain ways but it's definitely in the culture.

[00:09:16] Sort of like an invisible version of the striped path yeah yeah the striped path was this was the scarves right yeah the

[00:09:23] hierarchy has to have a perception of earned authority in order to listen right which also the stage gives you to a degree with any person above you yeah it was one of those experiences where I was like oh and then much later

[00:09:36] I would think oh that's why people revered him so much because in his presence and his courses you had those kinds of experience I miss reflection but similar things.

[00:09:46] I mean they're definitely I mean I certainly watched higher level people especially somebody like Karen and Durriner remember like she would I'd be asking a question of somebody and then she combined us this exact same question with a slightly different tone of voice with their hand

[00:10:00] and also with the hand on the shoulder or their hand on their leg or something or their hand on their hand I think sexual or inappropriate but physical contact

[00:10:08] and a certain type of voice and the person would just decompensate or just completely melt down or have the uh-huh oh that's what it was it was self love I was missing self love but I was trying to elicit like self love

[00:10:21] And I want to be really clear there was absolutely nothing sexual about it at all that wasn't even that I was pretty he likes pretty women for sure but there's nothing who doesn't pretty women are pretty yeah I'm very aware even as a teen mom like that's one of my privilege is I'm tall white and pretty so that's a privilege that I'm not

[00:10:38] I have and that has definitely when I look back over my life can see where I had opportunities others didn't or probably wouldn't have so in that moment though yeah it was you're just really taught that these people can somehow see things you can't see no things you don't know we almost have to believe that from the beginning

[00:10:57] otherwise why would you go in and start digging around right there that's a first assumption you're going into a room where people know things you don't and you're saying hey help me out with us

[00:11:06] right and back to my first walking into the first forum I don't know if I said it's but one of the things you walk in and every is congratulating you which is a little weird right like congratulations you chose to be here you put yourself here

[00:11:19] and my response that was a little apprehensive but also okay well something really amazing must be about to happen right because they know something I don't know

[00:11:30] that whole dynamic is really strong in that culture absolutely so when did you start to see the veneer crack for her so out of that course I said oh here's how you do it here's how you would put together a course that you offer

[00:11:43] to the public and you would take the revenues and they had had this foundation that they were setting up that was going to fund them coming together

[00:11:50] to do all this work so I give them a proposal I say this is how you do it they go wow that's really great will you do it and I was leaving landmark I was actually quite sick

[00:12:00] and burned out which is another common thing you'll find amongst landmark people it's probably a whole other episode but at some point we should talk about how people get

[00:12:08] how you get out of landmark as you get kicked out or you get sick even me to a certain extent if they hadn't broken my heart I probably wouldn't be here talking to you guys

[00:12:17] so I you know quickly say yes to this big opportunity and okay I'll host a course for you I had the expertise given the position I had held at landmark to my job was to fill programs to produce programs into lead program

[00:12:32] so that's a heady combination of skill set right and I had time supposedly because I was had given myself two years

[00:12:42] so I'm going to host this program we set off I host the first program in Whistler British Columbia your neck of the woods I could have been there yeah I have the town you could have 2012 needle

[00:12:52] like large we were there and I did a buyout I bought it out because I got 99 rooms so my husband and I we set up a DBA

[00:13:00] event company off of our hotel company because I after they asked me to do it I realized that there's no infrastructure there's nobody who's going to sign a

[00:13:08] contract or do anything so we become that and I set up my company innovative event management and we lease out the hotel we do all the stuff we set up the sales

[00:13:18] we're taking in all of the transactions were responsible for everything except for the actual leading of the material

[00:13:25] and I didn't see it at that time but looking back my first heads up that something was wrong was actually at that course

[00:13:32] because I set up this beautiful suite did all the stuff to take care of the instructors like I wanted it to be a really great experience for that

[00:13:40] and trust me you want to do an event with me because I love to create like I love to create some prizes

[00:13:45] and I set this whole thing up we have this beautiful suite I hear that his wife Hanukkah she's this beautiful Dutch woman

[00:13:52] she loves beauty I know he loves beauty from things he shared so it's just this gorgeous little suite they have there

[00:13:58] he comes with a crew you know there's five or six people staff that come with him that have all these different jobs I don't really know

[00:14:05] but he's the VIP and he's the guru and whatever you assume that whatever they're doing is like the best the highest the most profound about whatever

[00:14:14] at one point about halfway through the course I get a call from the general manager who demand I meet him in his office immediately like okay

[00:14:21] and so I go and meet him and he starts yelling at me about how dare we berate in the little his staff

[00:14:27] and I'm like why are you talking about and he turns out that one of Warner's lead staff person had threatened the hotel coordinator that we worked with

[00:14:37] so I had set them up with the contact they had asked for his staff to be able to work directly with the hotels were there for like three weeks

[00:14:44] and he's brings this whole office with him and he has all these different needs or whatever so I had set up for them to work directly with my hotel coordinator

[00:14:52] apparently the staff person had caught with calling her names belittling her telling her if she didn't get her act together

[00:14:58] they were going to leave and take the whole group with them and all this stuff in the GM it was like this is totally inappropriate

[00:15:05] and blah blah blah he's just yelling at me and I was stunned and I said okay I said I give you my word integrity is a very big thing in this circle

[00:15:14] I said I give you my word it won't happen again and I profoundly apologize and don't worry they don't even have the authority to say that

[00:15:22] I'm actually the hotel's client this is my vendor this is my business it's not theirs yes of course they can leave

[00:15:28] but they're not going to take the 150 participants and for other program leaders and they're not going to vacate the whole project

[00:15:36] they don't have the authority so he calms down he's like okay and then I promptly inform the water staff person that they no longer every request they make has to come through me or my husband day

[00:15:46] because we run the company together he's there running the event with me but that was the first time I was like wow that's weird

[00:15:55] there's something wrong about that like this guy's about human potential this guy is about integrity

[00:16:01] and so I figured it must have just been his staff person and we knew they were under a lot of pressure because he was a really tough boss

[00:16:07] there's lots of rumors about that and that was the first alert but I honestly I brushed it off pretty quick

[00:16:13] I was like okay and I just immediately did what I do very well I'm like the Olivia Pope of the Guruery of Venti space

[00:16:21] like I just adjusted and told his staff that everything needs to come through me and then I would just if they came to me with whatever request

[00:16:28] either my team would make it happen or I would work with the hotel to make it happen

[00:16:32] or you can't say no you quickly learn this is another kind of alert that I now know as an alert I didn't see at the time

[00:16:38] you can't say no no is not a thing you can't say no to work but what you can say is of course we can make that happen

[00:16:45] I just want to let you know that'll cost xyz which is now money that won't be able to go to the initiative

[00:16:52] which is supposedly what we're all here for this educational initiative that had been set up and that's where the profits would go

[00:16:58] and that was to help fund this mission then you'd get the message back okay we're not going to do that

[00:17:04] can I also say a red flag for me in this whole thing with the initiative I just remembered is that when you did

[00:17:09] gave the proposal of what it would take I think there was like 20%

[00:17:12] oh yeah we'd go to the running of it and then you decided to take a pay cut and only get 10%

[00:17:17] to run the thing and everything else would go to this initiative

[00:17:20] yeah yeah oh no do that

[00:17:24] I never even saw it I've been working my husband was running our hotel company

[00:17:28] we always had it that only one of us could be on staff with Lamar got a time

[00:17:32] because somebody needed to make money because they don't pay high salaries

[00:17:36] so even the 10% was higher than I had ever made and while I had run businesses

[00:17:41] before I was still pretty green at that and so I had a lot of cash coming in

[00:17:46] so it seemed fine it was many years later before I would figure out I was actually losing money

[00:17:50] and turn around and demand my full fee

[00:17:53] but yeah I initially agreed to do it

[00:17:55] I went out and did a bunch of research about what kinds of things people would charge

[00:17:58] I picked on the lower end because I figured it was a new company 20% of the gross sales

[00:18:03] because we're doing all the sales everything and was a more than fair fee

[00:18:07] and then I said but I'll take half of that and give my other 10% as an in kind contribution

[00:18:14] to the project, to the mission

[00:18:16] because we're all there for the mission

[00:18:18] right you're so mission driven yeah fuck the mission sorry

[00:18:21] just to give a sense of numbers these are 150 people paying coming from around the world

[00:18:25] to learn about academia and onticological blah blah blah training

[00:18:29] it's good sure

[00:18:30] thank you and they're paying how much per person

[00:18:32] they're paying 5,500 to 6,500

[00:18:34] okay so you getting 10% of that I could see it would seem like a big chunk

[00:18:38] yeah but you're also paying for a lot of things food

[00:18:42] all the expenses were part of the course so that the expenses were covered the revenue

[00:18:47] so including the expense of my services and then whatever the net proceeds were

[00:18:52] that's what we would contribute to the initiative

[00:18:54] and Airhart Jensen ontological phenomenological institute

[00:18:58] she's just I'm just saying do the logo anyway

[00:19:03] yeah so we're paying all the expenses for all the instructors

[00:19:09] all of our everybody and includes our little stipend

[00:19:13] our little fee for doing all the work it's a years worth of work at least to put on an event like this

[00:19:17] it's a big deal so that was another heavy part

[00:19:20] actually to being needed by these guys to do that

[00:19:23] to be able to be a part of this mission

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[00:22:40] break times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty

[00:22:44] it's a good one

[00:22:45] so what was it like to be part of the inner circle now

[00:22:48] oh yeah oh yeah no I'm as inner circle as you can possibly get like the inner circle

[00:22:53] that was mythological at this point and they had this thing especially in the early part

[00:22:58] because in the early part Werner was in his mid-70s

[00:23:00] a little more spread than he was by the end of it nine years later

[00:23:03] and they would go out to these fancy dinners every night

[00:23:06] oh my god it was exhausting

[00:23:08] I was in my 40s and can barely keep up but you're in these rooms

[00:23:12] so we all come in early right and I come in what ahead of Warner's team even

[00:23:16] he comes in the earliest because he need a couple days to recover

[00:23:19] having traveled halfway across the world etc etc

[00:23:22] so Dave and I come in early get everything ready help them get set up

[00:23:25] then there's these prep days where you're in this it's called the prep room

[00:23:30] but we're like working the instructors are sitting around the table designing

[00:23:35] this work they're like designing the being a leader in the effective exercise of leadership

[00:23:39] program and I'm sitting on an outer circle

[00:23:42] so they're on a like a you facing a screen and then I'm sitting at a table either behind or beside them

[00:23:47] with a handful a very small handful of select picked team people to provide support

[00:23:53] leader support is called their functional support

[00:23:55] basically get coffee, handle the lunches, keep the room cleaned up like all this stuff

[00:24:00] but being in that room with Werner Airhart and Mike Jensen and Steve Zafron

[00:24:07] like thinking this stuff up and it was cool

[00:24:11] I was just like wow

[00:24:14] does he present himself as a tough guy?

[00:24:16] is that part of his persona like

[00:24:19] I think he's more humble isn't he like you this or no you tell me

[00:24:22] well I'm guessing Werner is whoever Werner needs to be to get what Werner wants

[00:24:26] okay so Donald Trump

[00:24:27] oh no no Donald Trump has way less control

[00:24:30] Donald Trump has no control compared to Werner

[00:24:32] Werner is I would say my opinion sociopathic level

[00:24:37] the core of the training or the tech is to leave you being

[00:24:41] it leave you as a human being having access to all ways of being an

[00:24:47] at your call so if you need to be angry

[00:24:50] if you need to be humble, if you need to be okay now what does that sound like?

[00:24:53] manipulation station

[00:24:55] well my girlfriend and I as we've been taking this apart last couple years

[00:24:58] she called me up one day and she said oh my God they were training us to be sociopaths

[00:25:03] yes yes and I now can see that right

[00:25:07] and I don't think that was unique to landmark actually I think that's in this whole movement

[00:25:10] no I don't think that's a hundred percent

[00:25:13] I agree I totally agree

[00:25:14] and just to clarify for our audience on the outside there's the forum where you

[00:25:17] can have self-awareness and make phone calls to fix damaging relationships

[00:25:21] and on the inside all the way up to the inner circle

[00:25:24] is to learn to overcome all of your limitations so that you can interact with the world

[00:25:29] be fluid in and out of emotions in and out of whatever needs to be felt

[00:25:34] and experienced and done ontically

[00:25:37] so that you can get what you want

[00:25:40] the limitation in the inner circle of that kind of stuff is your conscience

[00:25:44] your conscience becomes a limitation

[00:25:47] because the thing that stops you from going in and out of those things

[00:25:49] is a conscience about I don't want to treat someone this way or something like that

[00:25:52] and in your book I actually think that it's clear that you have a conscience

[00:25:56] well that's why we're here

[00:25:57] yes what you're here

[00:25:58] you have a conscience

[00:25:59] and then you seemed like you in telling me if this is right

[00:26:02] just from a reader's perspective

[00:26:03] it seemed like you saw things that were troubling

[00:26:06] and that were potentially people were getting hurt

[00:26:09] but because you have a conscience

[00:26:11] and you couldn't project

[00:26:12] that somebody would treat anybody intentionally badly

[00:26:15] you made excuses and shrouded certain things

[00:26:19] there's an explanation for it

[00:26:20] tell us what the explanation you made

[00:26:22] for when you started to see that people were being yelled at

[00:26:25] and the full metal jacket thing

[00:26:27] yeah because that's what I was just going to say

[00:26:29] because we're actually like I didn't have to come to it

[00:26:32] you're guided down a path

[00:26:34] like you're guided down a path

[00:26:36] so first of all before you get anywhere in your

[00:26:38] workers inner circle

[00:26:39] you've done landmark in some way

[00:26:41] you've probably you've at least been a person who assists

[00:26:44] which is a beginning of being responsible

[00:26:46] getting moving towards the inside

[00:26:48] and by the way may I mention assisting is volunteering

[00:26:50] you don't get paid to run the drinks

[00:26:52] correct correct

[00:26:53] and for the lawyers

[00:26:54] yes I know they have now ended the assisting program

[00:26:56] thank you thank you lawyers

[00:26:58] thank you lawyers

[00:26:59] and you're in a half ago

[00:27:00] but when you're working so I described what it's like

[00:27:03] to be working in the prep room where they're creating the material

[00:27:06] and that happens for four or five days

[00:27:08] and then the course happens

[00:27:09] but when the course participants are out on break

[00:27:11] the instructors are back in that prep room

[00:27:13] working on the material

[00:27:14] so I'm going back and forth between all that

[00:27:18] and early on I don't remember if it was the very first program

[00:27:22] in Worsler it was the one after that

[00:27:24] which I hosted in Cancun

[00:27:25] but very early on at some point

[00:27:27] Warner shows us this clip from Full Metal Jacket

[00:27:31] and it's a famous clip

[00:27:32] I was actually quite shocked when I was doing my book

[00:27:34] and I went and looked it up

[00:27:35] and I had myself watch it again

[00:27:37] with this little jarring giving what I know now

[00:27:39] but in this drill sergeant

[00:27:41] is yelling at this Marine recruit

[00:27:44] who Chubby and they find he finds a jelly donut

[00:27:46] in his foot locker and he's like screaming at him

[00:27:48] and how whatever

[00:27:49] what is your major malfunction

[00:27:50] yeah what's your major malfunction

[00:27:52] and that malfunction is going to cost these Marines

[00:27:54] their life and one along

[00:27:55] everything is life and death

[00:27:57] and this is another thing

[00:27:58] that's important to understand about the landmark inner circle

[00:28:00] which is the staff when you get to the staff level

[00:28:03] everything is life or death

[00:28:04] it's this constant state of emergency to miracle

[00:28:07] and there's even a whole paper I had to study for years

[00:28:10] about foe minting emergency

[00:28:12] to get people in action

[00:28:14] and I never liked that part

[00:28:15] in the division that I worked in

[00:28:17] didn't really subscribe to that

[00:28:19] I was in like the Hawaii, Kauai division

[00:28:22] but like no wonder people have burn out

[00:28:25] if you're like in the next thing we called it intensity state

[00:28:28] I also was in that state for many years

[00:28:30] and like people the dreamtals burn out

[00:28:32] because you can't stay in emergency state

[00:28:34] all the time

[00:28:36] even I when I left and I said I was sick

[00:28:38] total burn out

[00:28:39] and I hadn't experienced the intensity of the center's division

[00:28:42] but I did have the experience of producing results

[00:28:44] like if you don't produce the result

[00:28:46] you're going to get kicked out

[00:28:48] and this is your whole life

[00:28:49] and you're changing the world

[00:28:51] and you're gonna lose your opportunity to change the world

[00:28:53] so you got to perform right

[00:28:55] but so fast forward I'm in this room

[00:28:57] Warner showing this ball metal jacket video

[00:29:00] and I literally don't remember anything like what he said

[00:29:03] I just remember what I was left with

[00:29:05] what we were all left with

[00:29:06] those of us that were gonna be working with him in that inner sanctum

[00:29:09] which is you're going to see me interact with my staff

[00:29:12] in ways that you're gonna think is mean and harsh

[00:29:15] but two things one they agree to it

[00:29:18] which I later find out is not true

[00:29:20] and I also later find out

[00:29:22] I did not understand at that time

[00:29:24] you cannot agree to be verbally abused

[00:29:26] that's not a thing

[00:29:28] it's not a thing

[00:29:29] but I didn't know that

[00:29:30] I didn't know that

[00:29:31] especially if there's no if there's no safe word

[00:29:33] there's no way to stop it

[00:29:34] right I could say

[00:29:35] hey I'm gonna pay someone to verbally abuse me for an hour

[00:29:38] and then it's over

[00:29:39] it's never ending

[00:29:40] you can't get out

[00:29:41] to say I don't want this to go on

[00:29:42] you agree to this

[00:29:43] it mean in theory

[00:29:44] you could agree to it for a short time

[00:29:46] or a time period

[00:29:47] but you have to be able to end it

[00:29:48] there's a pretense of those things

[00:29:50] not a safe word

[00:29:51] but there is a pretense of your

[00:29:53] you can lead his employment at any time

[00:29:55] but there's no safe word

[00:29:56] you can't because you've already committed

[00:29:58] also you're dependent

[00:29:59] exactly

[00:30:00] you're dependent

[00:30:01] and you're indoctrinated

[00:30:03] that this is the opportunity

[00:30:05] to study be one of

[00:30:07] one of Wörters' staff people

[00:30:09] right because what happens

[00:30:10] if you walk away

[00:30:11] what are you leaving

[00:30:12] you're leaving everything

[00:30:13] the best opportunity

[00:30:14] you've ever been given in your life

[00:30:16] and your integrity

[00:30:17] oh yeah that

[00:30:18] oh yeah

[00:30:19] oh that is such a hammer

[00:30:21] yeah

[00:30:22] right

[00:30:23] if you leave you have lost your integrity

[00:30:25] and your integrity is your word

[00:30:26] and your word is who you are

[00:30:27] and what else do you have

[00:30:28] yeah nothing

[00:30:29] you're fucked

[00:30:30] you are nothing

[00:30:31] that's where it goes to

[00:30:32] I can remember there was someone

[00:30:34] who had just gotten in his goals plan

[00:30:36] was to get into business school

[00:30:38] and he got into Tuck

[00:30:39] Dartmouth Business School

[00:30:40] he used the goals program

[00:30:41] to get in

[00:30:42] and he went to go do it

[00:30:43] and Edgar

[00:30:44] one of the proctors

[00:30:45] in our organization said

[00:30:47] why go there when you're here

[00:30:50] yes

[00:30:51] because it's an opportunity

[00:30:52] for me to go into something

[00:30:53] that I wanted to do

[00:30:54] and he's like

[00:30:55] you're destroying your conscience

[00:30:56] well you're destroying your conscience

[00:30:57] and I think

[00:30:58] it's a very bad opportunity

[00:30:59] for you

[00:31:00] knowing what you know we have

[00:31:02] oh that mother fuck

[00:31:03] and I was like

[00:31:04] no he's not

[00:31:05] I worked with them

[00:31:06] it was like

[00:31:07] months of him

[00:31:08] doing the applications

[00:31:09] and everything

[00:31:10] I was ecstatic

[00:31:11] I had no time

[00:31:12] did he go to Tuck

[00:31:13] he went to Tuck

[00:31:14] and he ended up

[00:31:15] moving to London

[00:31:16] and he's doing right now

[00:31:17] what the crazy part is

[00:31:18] that's why

[00:31:19] you're doing human potential work

[00:31:21] I couldn't

[00:31:22] can believe he said that to him

[00:31:23] yeah

[00:31:24] Albany and in some cases join the mother fucking hair. Right right when I know

[00:31:28] Warner did not have as far as we know right as we know one of the things that I've found to be

[00:31:33] the most distracted as as I've taken it apart for myself so yes and this is part of why I wanted

[00:31:38] to be the one to talk because I will honor the baby in this bathwater do you know what I mean

[00:31:43] I will honor that part of my mind you guys and working with SeekSafely because we recognize

[00:31:49] that self-development self-help has a really important role to play and I think that my mark

[00:31:54] if they got their shit together could actually be a part of that if they would if they were

[00:31:58] willing to really deal with this dark side for so far they've shown absolutely no evidence

[00:32:02] no just just for and just for the sake of the lawyers listening if they really wanted to be

[00:32:08] in Tigris they would stop suing everybody who has criticisms so I'm gonna I'm gonna put them to

[00:32:13] the test to say are you in Tigris are you in Tigris oh yeah lawyers care they care about

[00:32:18] no but are they if they're if they really want to do what the landmark says they're gonna do

[00:32:21] they're gonna say hey let's look at the criticism and be better these are billable hours take your

[00:32:25] billable hours and shove them up your integrity yeah no they're gonna shove them in their bank account

[00:32:29] yeah but think about it you can't say your integrity and sue everybody who has a problem with you

[00:32:34] then you're full of shit right it's the biggest full of shit bullshit organization you're the one

[00:32:38] is having to get me rate the fuck off that they have protected themselves from actually growing into

[00:32:43] an organization that they could become because they sue fucking defectors fuck you lawyers I mad

[00:32:49] that people can't say shitty things about this organization because it could be great and that

[00:32:53] makes me upset makes me upset too it's part of it's why I'm here but here's the thing so to go on

[00:32:59] that rant the way I see it now is the landmark apparatus which you know one of the things I'll say is

[00:33:05] landmark it's not a thing it's people okay Harry Rosenberg Joan Rosenberg Mick Levitt Kevin Harmon

[00:33:12] I could go down a list and name the top people that make up what landmark is today they don't know

[00:33:19] they are in a cult I don't think landmark is a cult let me go on record right here saying because

[00:33:25] this is one of the other things they'll threaten to sue me about is because they've gone to great

[00:33:28] lengths to make sure that nobody calls them a cult and I don't think that they're a cult per se

[00:33:34] and but the inner circle they're a little bit culty as you move into the inner circle it gets

[00:33:41] more high control it gets more and more culty but all the way at the top the relationship to

[00:33:47] Warner is cultish and that leader is still there in 2020 this is a big part of what have he speak

[00:33:54] up is because in a way I see the relationship between Warner and landmark is part of with undermining

[00:34:00] and taking landmark down and in their way of them actually being a part of the Sikhsafely movement

[00:34:07] honestly they have been delivering human potential work in one form or another since it was a thing

[00:34:14] 40 years right there are big part of the lineage and instead of spending all your resources defending

[00:34:20] yourself against being called a cult why don't you ask why do people keep saying that about us

[00:34:25] and what can we change in the organization and I think dropping the assisting program probably

[00:34:30] probably actually had to do with liability and forced labor forced labor yeah there's evidence

[00:34:35] that in 2006 the Department of Labor here in Texas investigated and said this assisting program

[00:34:40] is not didn't say it's not legal exactly but it is not comport with US labor laws let's just say

[00:34:46] you have to do a freedom of information act to get the document somehow landmarks made it possible

[00:34:50] that you can't put the PDF decision up on the internet wow they're powerful and eminent comes

[00:34:56] that's why spend all your time defending that rather than going oh gosh that's interesting

[00:35:01] let it run out of air if it's not true right yeah and a lot of stuff happened between seeing

[00:35:07] Warner staff be treated full metal jacket style and you leaving we'll have to save that for the

[00:35:11] limited series but what was your final straw like how did you actually decide to leave

[00:35:17] a whole nasty ugly breakup happens with Carrie Granger who was my good friend and colleague and

[00:35:23] had brought me into the project and I should have left then honestly that was in 2015-2016

[00:35:28] you can read the details of that in the book and then Mike he was my main backup as things progressed

[00:35:34] from Whistler it was more and more challenging to do business with the Warner apparatus there are a

[00:35:40] handful of times that he and I got into two I had him in my face screaming twice which is something

[00:35:49] you've heard about Warner it's an experience let me tell you and then there's a couple other

[00:35:53] times you pull me aside and the last thing you wanted to hear in the prep room was and can I see

[00:35:58] you outside my stomach turn now it was scary but I held my own and so there was that but I was working

[00:36:04] really closely with his staff and it was very clear that they were always in distress they were

[00:36:08] always discombobulated freaked out and I reasoned early on that it's because they're confronted

[00:36:14] they're being confronted by this leader who is demanding that they be their best self and then all

[00:36:20] their stories and limiting beliefs is what was having them be so discombobulated and crazy I

[00:36:25] much later figure out no because he's abused that and like I realize when I'm looking at is terror

[00:36:32] not confront not people who are confronted but as that's going on carries left Mike's left they're

[00:36:38] the buffers because they they would go toe-to-toe with Warner they would but not the project becomes more

[00:36:43] and more looks like a glorified forum to me it stops being about this academic mission it stops

[00:36:50] the courses because they're constantly redesigning it the course is getting to me dumbed down actually

[00:36:57] I'm like by the end it was I'm like this is a glorified forum and not what we originally set out

[00:37:04] to do it's clear from about 2016 as Mike stopped participating carry was gone I think came clear that

[00:37:12] they were never going to let academia have it and do what Mike saw possible which is taken apart study

[00:37:18] it expand on it set up schools of ontological educational approach or whatever like it all was so

[00:37:24] tightly controlled Jerry who came in behind carry she's fabulous but she also she was had done

[00:37:31] S and she I think that she still is out there trying to make this course available in academia

[00:37:38] and more power to her it's a great course but there's so many limits between landmark having

[00:37:43] copyright so it becomes competitive to landmark they gave license to some of their business people

[00:37:49] so now you've got you're starting to have all these internal conflicts of interest and then you've

[00:37:53] got everybody's constantly paying fealty to Warner who's he's brilliant but at this point you can

[00:38:01] designing the same stuff over and over and trying to put it into different fields and trying to

[00:38:05] parallels around can yeah I'm just so by 2019 I'm like done this is nonsense I had just had to fight

[00:38:12] in 2018 I figured out I've been losing money we end up putting in a bunch of our own money to make

[00:38:18] up for it because I was going to be my word no matter what back to that how that gets used and then

[00:38:24] we just were we were like okay this isn't what we thought it was it isn't going to go where we

[00:38:29] thought it was going to go Warner Mike's gone carries gone Warner's getting we've now into his 80s

[00:38:36] the very last course he actually didn't make it all the way to Ken Coon he made it to New York

[00:38:40] had it health incident turned around had to go back I jumped through incredible hoops to get a film

[00:38:45] crew keep the 200 and some people in the course because I didn't have the three quarters of a

[00:38:51] million dollars to refund these people that money is all spent so you've got to have the course

[00:38:57] happen he's not showing up so I was just it was clear we were done like we were done a year before

[00:39:03] that I had some of his staff come to me and in couched language say hey I just need your support

[00:39:11] with something and they implied that he was physically harming them and I said if that's what

[00:39:16] you're saying you need to like get yourself to a safe place and call the police like no there's

[00:39:21] nothing about physically putting your hands in anger on someone that is a training technique like

[00:39:27] I don't even think they can do that in a Marie so I started to have and it fit with what I had seen

[00:39:33] there was nothing they were saying that was hard to believe given what I had been witnessing the screaming

[00:39:38] the yelling I tell all the incidents in the book the hotels coming to me afraid to knock on the door

[00:39:43] because they're hearing screaming yelling and crashing in the room but in a way it was still like

[00:39:49] no no like maybe he got out of control once or something and things got a little physical

[00:39:56] maybe he pushed somebody so you're like telling them the right thing to do call the police but

[00:40:00] you're also not totally sure what happened but you're guiding them in the right direction remember

[00:40:04] I'm also highly trained that everybody seeing everything through their filter through their meaning

[00:40:09] and my whole career has been listening to people you know listening to people so that they can get

[00:40:14] clear for themselves and also if you weren't there if you're not there you don't know what happened

[00:40:20] is another part of the protection of abuse yeah I've seen some bruises and seen some things it had

[00:40:26] there was a two distinct times I remember having the thought he does it physically harm them does he

[00:40:31] and then I'm like no that can't be happening you know you just can't believe it like you just can't

[00:40:36] believe it you can't believe it yeah we totally get it he's not sleeping with all these people

[00:40:40] leap with all these women I mean yeah no that can't be I love you're a part about the brand that's

[00:40:45] not his initials he wouldn't do that I would do that it's so crazy who's that dumb yeah you don't

[00:40:53] know what you're looking at no so you're done you're done you walk away yeah had that go well they

[00:40:59] went really well actually so we kind of knew the 2019 offering was going to be the last one we

[00:41:04] hosted my husband and I figured out we could get out of it mostly financially whole and we were

[00:41:08] and then Warner ends up not coming so it ends up being a really great for us it's a great course

[00:41:13] because we don't have all the stress and weirdness and quirkiness of him and his staff running around

[00:41:17] the hotel terrorizing each other and everybody else with everything from intense requests to

[00:41:23] just weird behavior I just have one tiny little question with their requests are they like more

[00:41:28] hand towels what do they want what do they want that the hotel's so what could they possibly want

[00:41:33] especially neither late what are they asking for four wine glasses with no spots seven

[00:41:38] spoons 15 play like it's just everything is very specific and constant for 20 days look I hosted

[00:41:46] at five star properties not for the status although Warner did like the status nice it was nice

[00:41:52] but because they're used to quirky VIPs with lots of requests right more down pillows and some of them

[00:41:59] weren't that weird but they were challenging one was a CD player I don't know if you know this but

[00:42:03] go try to find a CD player right now like without going in Mexico in Cancun you know in a resort

[00:42:09] like you know I remember one of the housekeeping staff actually had went in her mother's house and

[00:42:13] brought it in so there was it wasn't always that it was weird it was chat you couldn't say no

[00:42:18] it was elaborate and you had to figure it out and we're really really good at that and they'd also

[00:42:23] probably felt good about when you did oh my god we want you two can bond over that are we're

[00:42:29] going to take a nap at that point and I'm like let's get the goal started let's get to go

[00:42:34] and I was good at it and they also have it in my view the way his staff works was like the longest

[00:42:39] hardest most complicated road to anything there was all this crazy stuff about shopping list like

[00:42:44] we're always shopping for all this food like very particular food things and you know what they

[00:42:48] needed and when they needed it and buy and and if I would always just be can't we just have a

[00:42:53] girl document and then when you run out of something say it and then I'll go within 24 hours and get

[00:42:57] it like I kept trying to simplify everything and you couldn't ever get it simplified and whatnot

[00:43:01] but anyway so all that stuff I'm just tired I'm tired I'm done I see now I don't believe in the

[00:43:07] mission that the mission like I still want to see transformational technologies out in the world

[00:43:13] in a bigger way still do actually yeah sure I can't I can see this isn't the pathway it's not going

[00:43:19] to happen here with these people they're not going to let it happen so we ended and then I'm

[00:43:23] creating my next thing and we go into the and then a pandemic happen so I've built this whole

[00:43:28] footprint this whole apparatus to market produce these leadership conferences so I'm like let's

[00:43:33] just bring in some other leaders and something some other great technology that helps people

[00:43:39] accomplish big missions big leadership initiatives and I'm going to do that

[00:43:44] and then the pandemic happens which kind of shuts us down and we'll go through there's a whole

[00:43:48] list of things that happen just boom like the pandemic was the least of my problems but you're

[00:43:53] an event management company obviously that's going to affect you yeah and when I'm going to take

[00:43:57] everything I built to host this being a leader course and by now I had some other clients some

[00:44:01] other gurus and other things and we had done some work for them and I'm like okay this is what

[00:44:06] I'm going to do now and I'm working on the next thing and pandemic comes along and we go to put up

[00:44:11] a free webinar just talking about wow how do you live from a future when the future suddenly

[00:44:16] becomes uncertain that's a big part of the leadership training is living from the future

[00:44:20] backwards and landmark threatens me literally like these people that I thought I was part of the

[00:44:25] family I didn't just get a letter I didn't just get a cease and to cease letter like some other

[00:44:29] people I know and I got a call letting me know that I was going to get a cease and to cease letter

[00:44:35] that's nice and I know that was the big courtesy and it wasn't a call where I could have a

[00:44:40] discussion there was no discussion there was no like what what's so offensive what's wrong what's

[00:44:45] whatever so that was upsetting to say the least and then they threatened the people who I was working

[00:44:50] with that if they worked with me they would no longer be in the landmark circle

[00:44:57] for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called

[00:45:01] scarred the true story of how I escaped nexium the cult that fell in my life it's available on

[00:45:05] amazon audible and at most bookstores if you want to see that story in streaming form watch both

[00:45:10] seasons of the vow on hbf now that the novelty of the new year has dwindled down how are your

[00:45:19] resolutions coming still going to the gym one of mine was to order less takeout and cook at home

[00:45:25] more I really do want to learn how to cook but I got to be honest I haven't been that consistent

[00:45:29] I don't have the time or patience to meal prep and grocery shop I try I really do try but

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[00:46:44] question how is your social battery right now is it a drained be fully charged see totally

[00:46:51] unpredictable or D a little bit of all the above depending on the day I feel you I'm probably in

[00:46:57] all of the above person figuring out the right amount of socializing versus alone time isn't easy

[00:47:03] it's easy to overdo it in either direction for example I definitely ever did it on socializing

[00:47:08] last month and I'm feeling a little bit of grouchy hermit right now it's not good for me therapy has

[00:47:14] been key to striking a better balance and helping me enjoy a social life that doesn't drain my

[00:47:19] battery things like learning it's okay to not say yes to every invitation and practicing the

[00:47:25] philosophy that no is a complete sentence therapy is crucial and not just for navigating big time

[00:47:31] traumas but living every day normal life in 2024 if you're thinking of starting therapy give

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[00:48:04] let's get back to a little bit coltie shall we so if I'm clear you originally kind of left sort

[00:48:09] of naturally and peacefully but when you tried to start to do something else is when you got cut off

[00:48:13] from the family and got the legal shit yeah as a good friend of mine said I got ejected from

[00:48:18] the spaceship that happens like early in the year then later I start having more like one comes to

[00:48:25] me and says he's super sick and he wants to know what do I think should he go ahead and should

[00:48:29] he leave staff and I'm like get out get off it's a it's a hostile work environment that and without

[00:48:35] saying because everything's very secret you have to keep everything very secret and very careful and

[00:48:39] yeah we know so then I start hearing from more people and then at one point a group sits me down

[00:48:46] and walks me through very undeniable evidence they had gone to well landmark the head of landmark

[00:48:53] warners brother to ask for help to one let him know that the inner circle winners inner circle

[00:48:59] was actually being abused emotionally verbally physically abused and they're trying to solve it

[00:49:04] inside they're trying to solve it without going outside the circle because nobody wants to

[00:49:09] destroy the work and if this secret about Werner comes out the work will be destroyed we're wrestling

[00:49:14] with that all through 2020 2021 and more people are coming talking about it starting to share with

[00:49:20] each other landmarks response from what I was shown was not like what I would have hoped they

[00:49:27] would have done is oh my god we had no idea of course we'll stop sending employees to his direction

[00:49:33] of course we'll partner with you to get him to clean it up like whatever that's not what they did

[00:49:39] they doubled down that's not happening in bubble ball so all this stuff's happening police

[00:49:45] but police when they start calling people of course we're not being you know they're calling active

[00:49:49] staff no no no there's no violence here we're not being abused but when that happened

[00:49:54] maybe what it had me do it was like this experience of putting on you know when you're doing

[00:49:58] that eye test and all of a sudden they put in the lens that has you see 2020 and now

[00:50:03] deaf that I had ignored that I had walked by that I had not all the sudden was like oh there's

[00:50:11] something much more insidious going on here than I understood and landmark is complicit that was

[00:50:17] the most heartbreaking piece for me was finding out and figuring out how complicit the higher-ups

[00:50:23] like I think most people in landmark don't have any idea they don't even necessarily know who

[00:50:27] Warner is honestly but up in the inner circle they absolutely do and they were going to cover

[00:50:33] and to my knowledge there's still recommending employees to him so there's still there's no reason

[00:50:38] to think that there's that abuse has stopped it's probably diminished because he's you know now living

[00:50:43] in a situation where where he doesn't have as much access let's say I think his access has been

[00:50:49] diminished but I doubt anybody who's working closely with him is currently experiencing abuse

[00:50:55] in my opinion for the lawyers I'm not seeing that have but I've seen enough to be pretty confident

[00:51:01] that that so that's part of why so why speak up now and are you ready for the onslaught

[00:51:06] I'm as ready as I can be I don't know you can ever fully be ready listening to a little bit culty

[00:51:11] for the last two years is actually helped me get ready in a lot of ways thank you so much and

[00:51:15] the partnership compokes it secretly and and just starting to understand this world a little bit

[00:51:22] and look more honestly and critically and but in part why speak up because it's still happening

[00:51:28] to my knowledge there's no reason to think why would somebody who's been abusive whether

[00:51:33] it's verbally physically in any way suddenly stop unless they're made to stop and the various

[00:51:39] efforts that are being made to please didn't do anything there's a couple of court things that

[00:51:45] are happening I don't know you know they're fighting those of course tooth and nail and they're not

[00:51:50] could directly related to that they're related to employment issues so it just is like

[00:51:55] it's intolerable yeah I didn't think that I would be the first one oh that's another part

[00:51:59] I start getting calls from reporters and stuff like I know there are other I'm hearing about this

[00:52:04] not just the inner circle but I'm hearing about it so I know the ship is sinking yeah and I know

[00:52:12] and a lot of people I love are on that ship and they don't know and then it was in what are we

[00:52:19] in 24's I think late 2022 an effort starts through the landmark network to fund to raise all these

[00:52:26] funds to put into this Warner Airheart library which I think it's now actually going to be called

[00:52:33] they can't call it a library it's like the Warner Airheart Center for Leadership that's going to be in

[00:52:36] this building being built at Cal State University Fullerton campus and landmarks who's struggling

[00:52:42] to stay alive struggling to keep people employed their esoph there employees stock option ownership

[00:52:48] plan is like devastating people's retirement and they're gonna put four million dollars into this

[00:52:54] library like into this thing like they got in the pandemic they tied themselves back up to let to

[00:53:00] Warner and they started giving resources significant resources to his legacy and I know because I'm

[00:53:09] getting calls from different reporters and different people all over the place I'm starting to hear

[00:53:14] podcast what landmark doesn't know there's a lot of people out there already having these

[00:53:17] conversation but they're getting a lot of the information wrong they're because nobody will talk

[00:53:22] and that's when I decided to talk I spent it said I'm gonna talk because I know the world I can

[00:53:27] be accurate about the aspects of landmark that are good and that are useful and whatnot and I can

[00:53:34] be honest I've done enough work myself to be able to be honest about what isn't and then what can

[00:53:39] we all learn from that what can we all learn from that going forward I'm so glad that you reached out

[00:53:45] to us because we've been looking for you since we started we manifested well in this we're also now

[00:53:52] seeing this is where I really want to go with this is we're now seeing these behaviors as kind of

[00:53:57] abusive power behaviors these coercive behaviors it's now penetrating all kinds of aspects of

[00:54:03] for sure American life but life in general right like people are believing crazy conspiracy theories

[00:54:09] that's cultish that's a kind of somebody asking when two I thought the most dangerous cult leader

[00:54:15] out there now was and I have some opinions about that but I actually don't even think that's the

[00:54:19] most useful question there's always going to be narcissistic people that are trying to manipulate

[00:54:24] take advantage for their own fame and fortune and you know what they weren't Trump but what I

[00:54:29] think is more dangerous is us folks that don't know what we're looking at don't don't know

[00:54:37] that our will our sovereignty is being supplanted by somebody else's we don't know that we are the

[00:54:45] source of our transformation we give that over to something else or that we are the source of

[00:54:51] what's happening which funny enough is actually court of the teaching but then those teachings are

[00:54:57] getting used to create fame and fortune power for others and for ill intent what do you want to say

[00:55:05] to the people who are listening who are attached to their either landmark or something like landmark

[00:55:10] and they're the transformational path whatever it is what's your advice to them first of all the crisis

[00:55:15] of oh my god did I just of doubting yourself and oh my god did I just waste whatever for me it was

[00:55:22] 20 some years in my life was any of it real is the value I got was that real or was that just

[00:55:29] manipulation if it was real and it made a difference for you it was real what matters is what you say

[00:55:37] and what you did and hang on to that and that doesn't mean you can't look honestly and see the parts

[00:55:44] that maybe were exploited or even abusive and no that was not you that was never you I have a

[00:55:51] pretty conservative landmark ex-staff members that come through my life who's even 5th 10 15 20 years

[00:55:57] after having been let go off of staff because they failed they think it was because they didn't

[00:56:02] have integrity they think it's because they weren't good it was never you the system is designed to fail

[00:56:10] you did not fail the system failed you and make that separation and hang on to your transformation

[00:56:18] that's why I'm speaking up because I think I can say that because I've been yeah I've been

[00:56:23] I've been in both sides deeply and yeah and that's what my three years have been is like

[00:56:29] learning to trust myself again yeah both of those truths can exist yes which is hard

[00:56:34] it's really hard yeah and we learn this from Dr. Ramney when people stay in the cognitive

[00:56:39] dissonance and they want to hold on to the good of the work or the tech or whatever they can't

[00:56:43] face the bad stuff because they don't think that both things could be true but both things can

[00:56:46] be true you could have done a lot of great work and been a part of an abusive organization yes

[00:56:51] and then you can decide what to do in fact I would say most groups are like that I mean look at

[00:56:55] anything that's set up to be good you're always going to have bad players and look at our government

[00:56:59] look at like sports teams yeah I think we need to learn how to honor that inner voice and so much

[00:57:06] of the human potential work whether it came through landmark or nexium or Scientology or context

[00:57:11] or into I don't know pick your one even the churches if we want to go back to the original cold

[00:57:15] no I would say especially the churches yeah not even and our experience in our podcasts churches

[00:57:20] have been just like yeah I've been listening I grew up in the church I grew up with Jesus loves me

[00:57:26] which I still think today actually I grew up in the happy side and lots of great happy Christian

[00:57:30] churches we're not shitting on churches no this just happens to be a lot of churches you just

[00:57:34] hit something to how you feel hold on to your would you say your intuition the thing is all these

[00:57:39] things are designed to tell you to get your source somewhere else get it from God get it from

[00:57:45] word or get it from your forum leader get it from Keith Rineric your political views from Taylor Swift

[00:57:51] who we organize that way and we can have a whole brain science conversation about what that's

[00:57:55] about but it's a fallacy you have to learn to trust yourself you have to learn to go in that's

[00:58:01] what I've been spending the last three years doing really since 2012 to a certain extent even

[00:58:06] though I was still very involved working with the diamond approach group and whatnot I've been

[00:58:09] learning to listen to my internal mechanism listening to that stuff and in the him of potential

[00:58:16] movement that actually try to train you not to listen to that in landmark it's called your

[00:58:20] internal state and what's going on with you internally is how we're going to say it and that

[00:58:25] is what you need to put aside in order to perform and that is a lie no you need to learn how to

[00:58:30] interpret it and to link your moral compass yeah you need to learn how to navigate it and interpret

[00:58:36] it our society we didn't exactly grow up with a lot of training about feelings not in my generation

[00:58:41] not in our high schools so we got to learn that I think there's an evolution happening and

[00:58:46] I knew when I started hearing all this stuff about Warner that I was going to have to choose

[00:58:50] I was going to have to choose which side I was going to be am I going to be on the future

[00:58:54] of self-help and self-development which I think is the seek safely approach or am I going to

[00:59:00] stay in the past am I going to stay in that or as I always joke am I going to go sell shoes at

[00:59:05] your strong stuff my backup no you're going to put on events with Sarah and I think this is

[00:59:12] the first of many of our conversations and I think I can't wait to see how this plays out

[00:59:16] yeah I appreciate you guys so much I mean it just I had a great conversation with another

[00:59:22] landmark person Sarah you actually introduced me to her the other day Sarah like she told me we

[00:59:27] don't know where to go to get work with a lot of us don't you know we don't have psychiatrist

[00:59:31] psychologists and whatnot but we have a little bit culty and we have the sense and we have the vow

[00:59:37] that's awesome I just cannot overstate what a difference that stuff is made to starting to de-concept

[00:59:44] what doesn't work about the human potential self-help it's so vital well I'm so glad we can

[00:59:50] provide some free therapy and also for anyone who's listening who might be an excellent mark we do

[00:59:55] have a lot of resources on our resource page well you're part of it now to be part of it including

[01:00:00] your book which of course we highly recommend and go into a lot goes into a lot more details if

[01:00:04] people really want to know the inner workings of all the different companies which is a lot

[01:00:08] then they can find everything there and go on your whole journey I also want to say because I

[01:00:13] know that the lawyers are listening that and is one of many people who've come to me who wanted

[01:00:18] to speak didn't want who didn't want to speak publicly so I think this is going to be the the

[01:00:22] beginning of a lot of people's speakers for you and you know what you can try to silence us but

[01:00:27] you're gonna be playing whack-a-mole motherfuckers because there's a lot of people coming out of the

[01:00:31] woodwork who've had very similar experiences to you and worse and one thing they can count on if

[01:00:36] they do start to come after to shut me up that will be on loud beaker Peter Skolnik who is

[01:00:42] very effectively defended in the past as we have him on retainer and and it's that's not to say

[01:00:48] honestly I'd like to have them be a part of this conversation I'd like to have them come on and

[01:00:53] let's start to look at this stuff and let's start to look at what really goes on in landmark and

[01:00:57] how can we make it better or different or what not it's a process because the language changes right

[01:01:03] everything we're saying has its legal counterpart yes right and it's funny to hear it get translated

[01:01:09] into legal these and go oh okay yeah that's another way of saying their assholes I mean I had

[01:01:15] another guru who sued me to avoid paying a bill and he sued me made up pleadings cost me tens of

[01:01:21] thousands of dollars after I'd already lost hundreds of thousands of dollars working for him he said

[01:01:26] and my defense is gonna be I'm gonna just come sue you and that happened so that's probably part of

[01:01:31] why I can speak up now too because I've already been to the worst what keeps so many people quiet

[01:01:35] is that fear and it is true that our legal system people can initiate legal action against you

[01:01:40] and they probably won't win you got to have the resources to fight emotionally financially

[01:01:46] physically like you got to have those resources and I have those research but shame on those people

[01:01:51] that's the most non-integrous thing to do that don't care that's my point they say they care so if

[01:01:57] you really cared you wouldn't sue people no you join the conversation differently yeah join

[01:02:01] the conversation come to the table right yeah thank you so much and hopefully this is the

[01:02:06] teaser for a lot more and so appreciate your time and your wisdom and your willingness to

[01:02:12] be the first one out of the gate in a area that clearly is very scary for people and maybe we'll

[01:02:18] remove that a shout of fear so people can speak freely about their experiences the good and the bad

[01:02:22] yeah and we can learn and we can do better that's it just learn and do better isn't that what

[01:02:27] the whole game is about anyway so let's walk the walk the walk exactly awesome it's time to clear it up

[01:02:33] Warner yep all right thanks thank you till next time

[01:02:39] like what you hear do you give us a rating or review and subscribe on iTunes every little bit helps

[01:02:45] us get this cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you know you want to

[01:02:53] that was part two of our chat with Anne Peterson how you like them apples

[01:02:57] and Zememwar is this a cult confronting the line between transformation and exploitation is out now

[01:03:03] go grab that on amazon pronto since confronting what she calls the big lie of her landmark journey

[01:03:09] and is launched a business of her own dedicated to the safe ethical practice providing personal

[01:03:13] development you can learn more about it at illuminate.life and we'll put those links in our show notes

[01:03:19] until next time maybe don't sign up for a course or workshop where the founder is a rumored

[01:03:23] abuser or a dude who changes name after allegedly abandoning his family full stop let us know what you

[01:03:30] think thank you for listening to a little bit culty see you soon assessed

[01:03:52] thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now

[01:03:57] to discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for

[01:04:03] general informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for

[01:04:08] real medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about

[01:04:14] seeking safely in this culty world check out a little bit culty.com slash culty resources and

[01:04:19] don't miss Sarah's TED talk called how cult literate are you great stuff a little bit culty is a

[01:04:25] trace 120 production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippie Ames in collaboration

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