The Ties That Bind: Ariel Anderssen on Cults to Kink

[00:00:00] We are Teresa and Nemo and that's why we switched to Shopify. The platform, which we used before Shopify, has used regularly updates, which have sometimes led to that the shop didn't work. Our Nemo Boards shop makes so much more of the mobile devices. The illustrations on the boards come now much clearer, what is important to us and what our brand also means. Start your test today for 1€ per month on shopify.de.

[00:00:29] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:00:57] And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week, we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way. For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult.

[00:01:28] If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out. We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware. This podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself. Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:09] Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everybody. In today's episode, we're getting spicy. No. Yes, we are. We're not getting spicy. Well, our guest is. She's Ariel Anderson, a world-renowned BDSM model and sex-positive author. She was also raised a Jehovah's Witness. If you've been following the show, you know how non-sex positive the church is. It's also a little bit of a doomsday cult. And Ariel was raised to believe the world would end in the mid-90s. Maybe it did.

[00:02:39] It may have. I'm curious how they walked that one back. But I guess that's a topic for another show. Today, Ariel's here to tell us how she overcame her repressive upbringing and embraced sexual liberation. We'll get into what BDSM actually is and what people get wrong about it. But you're going to learn in this one. You are going to learn a lot. When it comes to sexual power dynamics, there's sometimes interesting overlap between BDSM and conservative religion. We'll discuss how one is about freedom and the other is about oppression.

[00:03:07] This might be a good time to remind you that our conversation does get a little bit steamy. Oh, we're steamy now? Yes. Okay, we're spicy. Spicy and steamy. If unfiltered talk about sex makes you uncomfortable, you've been warned. You might want to skip this one. Or go to our Instagram and shame us. That works too. Now, let's welcome our guest, Ariel Anderson, to the show.

[00:03:44] Ariel Anderson, welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and very excited to talk more about cult stuff. Same here. Have you been doing a lot of touring, talking about your book and your life, your very interesting life? I have, but most of what I've talked about has been more centered on my career than my background. And so I don't feel used up in terms of talking about the cult at all.

[00:04:11] So I'm really looking forward to talking to you, especially since we have some shared experiences. Yes. So yeah, I can't wait. I absolutely can't wait as well. And I haven't even told Nippy this, but there's more shared experiences than I could have imagined when I started reading your book. A, being British. I don't know if you know that, but I do have my British passport. My dad's British. Oh! Yes. And I did go to drama school and trained as an actress. And BDSM. We'll get to that.

[00:04:43] We'll get to that later, but there was just more in common than I realized. Also, I think we're about the same age. Were you born in 77? Wow. Yes! Yeah, me too. Yes, you too? Oh, you look great. And so do you. We'll have to share it. We'll trade skin secrets later. Do you guys like pizza and ice cream too? Amazing! I actually have so many questions for you and we're really excited as well.

[00:05:07] And let's start back at the beginning because, you know, most of our episodes start with, you know, how did you or your family get involved in whatever group it is? And then the end of the episode is usually about the healing and we'll get to that. But you didn't choose the Jehovah's Witness, your parents did. And if I understand, it was your mother who answered a door, a door knocking, surprise, surprise. What was she buying into way back when? Oh, wow. Well, so I was born in 77, as we just said.

[00:05:35] And my mum was absolutely terrified about nuclear war at the time because the Cold War was happening. My dad was a nuclear physicist, so he was very well aware of just how catastrophic nuclear war would be. So I guess my mum had learned enough from my dad to be absolutely terrified. And then the Jehovah's Witnesses came to the door saying, we've basically got the solution. You are right, the world is going to end, but don't worry.

[00:06:03] If you become a Jehovah's Witness, you and your family will survive. So I guess, as cults often do, they caught a vulnerable person at a vulnerable moment and kind of got their hooks in at that point. Absolutely. And you were three at the time? Is that right? No, I wasn't born yet when she got the Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door. So by the time I was born, it was done. We were Jehovah's Witnesses. So all of my memories are of growing up as a Jehovah's Witness.

[00:06:30] I don't remember a time when our family wasn't. My older sister has early memories of having Christmas before we stopped celebrating Christmas, but all my memories are Jehovah's Witness based. And I was really amazed by the amount of memories you were able to recount in great detail in your book of your early childhood, which is definitely a skill. It's really lucky, isn't it? Yeah, it's really lucky. Given that I was going to write a memoir. Yeah, I've got very, very vivid, very early memories, and I'm really glad of having them.

[00:07:00] Tell us some of your early memories in regards to the elements of the Jehovah's Witness that are pertinent to know in regards to the level of control and what was life like? So a friend of mine described growing up as a Jehovah's Witness as everything that wasn't compulsory was forbidden. And I think it's such a good description of the kind of joylessness of growing up in a cult like this.

[00:07:27] And obviously, the Jehovah's Witnesses aren't unique in having a lot of these rules, but they separate you from the rest of your peer group so effectively. So we couldn't celebrate Christmas. We couldn't celebrate birthdays. We couldn't celebrate Easter. So right away, a lot of the social events you'd be invited to as a child, you're not being invited to them. You can't go to them. Also, you can't take part in anything to do with those celebrations at school. So every time we did anything to do with Christmas or Easter, I'd have to leave the classroom.

[00:07:57] I wasn't allowed to go into school assemblies. And so not only are you being separated from your peer group, you're being separated very, very visibly from them. So everyone knows you're an outsider from the beginning of school. And then in addition to that, there's all the things you have to do or you're not being a good Jehovah's Witness. So we had to go around knocking on people's doors, evangelizing. And I started doing that when I was preschool. So I remember doing that from when I was three years old. And it's a very time consuming activity.

[00:08:25] So now when I look back, being a Jehovah's Witness probably took up about 20 hours of my time a week. And that's a lot like you could train for an elite sport in 20 hours a week. We've done a number of episodes on the Jehovah's Witness. Not a church. We don't call that a church. We call it a what we call it? Yes, we can call it a cult. We call it a little bit cultish. Yes.

[00:08:50] And every time we speak to somebody, it's a different, slightly different experience depending on how strict the particular... Also the power of cutting out those social events and those events that traditionally are supposed to create memories for families. Most family photos are birthdays, Christmases. So you kill... Yeah. It's a powerful thing to kill. I imagine it, like you said, it kills the joy. Yeah.

[00:09:17] How did you handle the doomsday belief system and the end of the world coming as a child? So for me, this was kind of the worst bit of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I think some people aren't quite so badly affected by it because I think some people don't believe it quite so much as I did. But the Jehovah's Witnesses are an apocalyptic cult. So they... Everything you're learning is geared around the idea the end of the world is about to happen. And I truly believe that.

[00:09:46] There was no cynicism in me. I really believed it. And the Jehovah's Witnesses have predicted the end of the world many times since they were formed in the 19th century. And at the time that I was growing up, which was in the 1980s, they were predicting the end of the world for the early 90s. So it was a very present danger. It was something that I was expecting to happen any time. And I was absolutely terrified of it.

[00:10:12] The way the Jehovah's Witnesses talked about Armageddon was that the world would just get more and more violent and more and more hostile towards Jehovah's Witnesses. We would be getting captured and tortured and Jehovah's Witnesses were being executed. And it would gradually get so bad that God would make Armageddon happen. And then if you were a good enough Jehovah's Witness, you'd survive Armageddon. But if you weren't quite good enough, you wouldn't.

[00:10:40] And I was always suspicious I might not be a good enough Jehovah's Witness to survive Armageddon. I was pretty sure my family were good enough, but I didn't think I would be. So I was absolutely terrified of this happening all of the time. And when I look back, I think that's the thing that makes me angrier than anything else, because it was so pervasive and I was so frightened. Hmm. That's so hard. It's such a terrible state to put people in.

[00:11:08] And wasn't there also only like a limited amount, like 144,000 or something? So the Jehovah's Witnesses, there are 144,000 special Jehovah's Witnesses who will be allowed to go to heaven and everyone else, they call them the great crowd. They'll get to live in paradise on earth. So I never wanted to be one of the 144,000 because heaven sounded awful.

[00:11:33] The idea of staying on earth sounded much less frightening because a bit more familiar. But now, when I look back, you just you could self-declare, you could self-identify as, oh, I've just been told I'm one of the 144,000. So we had one lady in our congregation who said she was one of the 144,000. And actually, the poor lady actually turned out she had mental health problems. I'm not quite sure what. So she ended up saying that she didn't think she was after all.

[00:12:00] And she thought she was kind of damned for eternity because she'd self-diagnosed herself wrong. So, yeah, there was the weird two tier system that we had, which I think the Mormons have as well. They have these kind of separate levels of paradise. And so the Jehovah's Witnesses have a little bit of that in common with some other Celts as well. This one, you could just declare. There's no like tryouts or anything like that. You didn't have to make a team. You could just go, I'm one of the 144. It's like super subjective MLM.

[00:12:29] There's no meritocracy to it at all. Not that they're... No, it's just you had to be brave enough to say it and hope that no one would say, no, you're not. No, you're not. There's no way you're allowed to be in it. So, yeah, like I think most people just hadn't got the courage to declare that I'm one of the special ones. So, I mean, we could do a whole episode specifically on the Jehovah's Witness, but we are going to just sort of summarize it loosely. That's a good backdrop.

[00:12:57] It was a good backdrop to the highly restrictive, highly controlled, very limited in terms of like you didn't have a TV. There was no outside media because it was so sinful. Sex, right, was very repressed. Correct? Like there was just plain heterosexual vanilla sex is the only thing you could have. Everything else was a sin. Is that right? Yes. Yes. To the extent that, and again, I know this is not unique to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[00:13:21] I'm sure most cults have some kind of sexual rules just to make you separate from everyone else. But, I mean, oral sex was banned as a thing. And now I look back, I just think, why? It's so arbitrary, really. And masturbation, of course, was forbidden. How do you police that? Of course. Well, I don't think they had to police it. They just said it was a sin and then everyone's policing themselves, right? And feeling bad about themselves. I've heard that before.

[00:13:50] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, again, I'm sure in common with some other cults, we learned about what we weren't allowed to do before I even knew what those things were. So I knew oral sex was wrong before I knew what it was. I knew masturbation was wrong before I knew what it was. And, of course, that's really pervasive and very damaging because it just gives you the idea that most sexual things are wrong. And then there's just this kind of narrow subset of things that are okay. And it's a pretty joyless way to go into having a sex life thinking that way.

[00:14:20] Right. That's where a lot of the mistakes are made, too. Yeah. Right? If you're going to figure out your own sexuality. Especially if it's taboo and off limits and that becomes even more exciting. But we'll get to your sexual liberation shortly. Before that. You really want to. Before that. Everything's just cutting to this. We've got to set the scene. We've got to set the scene. We can't skip steps here. No. Before that, your parents decided to leave. And that was because of your sister. Correct? Yes.

[00:14:48] So my sister, who's four years older than me, so she was 15 at this point, she got a Jehovah's Witness boyfriend. So in some ways, she did the right thing. She fell in love with another Jehovah's Witness, which is what we were meant to do. But in the Jehovah's Witnesses, you're not allowed to date at all until you're 18. And even when you are allowed to date, it's very conservative what you're allowed to do. So she and her secret Jehovah's Witness boyfriend were happily secretly dating.

[00:15:15] And his mother found out and told the elders, who are kind of the important people in the congregation, all men, obviously. And they told him, well, you have to finish this relationship because you're only 16. So this is illegal in the Jehovah's Witness church. So he just phoned my sister up and just said, I'm so sorry. I can't date you anymore. And put the phone down in this. I mean, just in this sort of really emotionally illiterate way.

[00:15:45] But he'd been told by the head of the congregation this wasn't OK. So he just did what they said. And my sister, who is a very romantic soul and had been reading a lot of Romeo and Juliet, just thought, oh, I suppose I should kill myself then. Fortunately, my parents stopped her from doing that. But I think it gave them such a shock that they just could have lost their eldest daughter because of the level of control the Jehovah's Witnesses exerted over people in the congregation.

[00:16:14] I think it just was a really serious reality check for them. And that's when they first considered just stepping away from the whole church, which is eventually what they did. Good for them. I mean, just the fact that that was a wake-up call. Like, Ariel, we've done over 200 episodes with cult survivors. And I can't even tell you how many memoirs I read and stories we've heard where I'm like, that should be a wake-up call. And it's not. And people stay and stay and stay. And I'm just so glad that they did.

[00:16:43] And I'm guessing it's because they— I'm sure there's other things. Yeah, well, they— Preempted that as well. Yeah. I think my guess— Yeah. And maybe your parents have told you more, but it's because they joined later in life. It's a long-term buy-in, I'm guessing. Well, they could juxtapose it with freedom as well, probably. Yeah. I think it's certainly—it must be much harder to leave, you know, if they've been born into the Jehovah's Witnesses too. Because it's hard enough leaving anyway, because of course you lose your whole social group.

[00:17:13] You're encouraged not to socialize outside the religion. And so all your social life's in the religion. Then you leave, no one will speak to you. And at least for my parents, their parents weren't Jehovah's Witnesses as well. So they wouldn't lose their whole social family network if they left. Whereas for a lot of people who are born into that religion, they don't dare leave because they'll lose their whole extended family too. So at least my parents were lucky enough to have family members who were non-Jehovah's Witnesses.

[00:17:41] That makes such—I think that makes all the difference. That's huge. Yeah, I think that is the difference, wouldn't you say? Yes. Yeah. And then they also found new community in a new church. Yes, they did. Like, it's not what I would do now as an adult. I think you've just left one cult. Just leave it alone. But of course, the thing that made my parents want to join a religion in the first place was still there in them.

[00:18:08] So my parents went and joined a fundamentalist Christian church, which honestly is very restrictive nevertheless. But compared to the Jehovah's Witnesses, it seemed like the most incredibly free experience. I mean, for me, it felt like this is a bit like a party suddenly going to church compared to the Jehovah's Witnesses church. It just seemed—I mean, we were allowed to wear trousers to go to church. And that just in itself seemed like, wow, this is really freedom. This is living now.

[00:18:37] I'm allowed to wear jeans if I want to. Now, first of all, I have to say, I just really loved your book. And I really savored a lot of the stories that you shared with so much humor and honesty. And I think our audience is really going to love it, especially because it's not our normal format in terms of, you know, it's something cult-related, obviously. But what happens next, I think, is really, really interesting.

[00:19:05] And so many different things happen, obviously, from when you left to, you know, we'll call it part two. Specifically— The pivot. The pivot. And we'll save those details for the book. I don't want to give all the spoilers away. But if you could give us sort of like the rough sort of cliff notes to leaving Jehovah's Witnesses, to embracing your sexual liberation slowly over time through a fascinating career, how would you describe it?

[00:19:32] So all of my life, from my really early memories—and I'm lucky to have such early memories—I always thought the idea of being tied up just sounded like the best thing ever. And so every time I read a book where something like that happened, I just think, oh, this is amazing. But I had no idea this was a sexual thing, because, you know, I was three years old. I wasn't responding sexually. I just thought it sounded great.

[00:19:53] But when I was 16, I realised suddenly that this was sexual, and I was horrified, because all of everything I'd been taught about sexual diversity was that it was sin. So anything that deviates from the norm, it's just sinful. So I tried to repress, to suppress the whole thing, which was horrible. So I spent nine years trying to suppress all of those sexual instincts, just desperately trying to be normal.

[00:20:20] I thought I would never tell anyone what I was into, because I just assumed I was the only one. So it seemed like the worst secret of my whole life that I was never going to share with anyone. And it never occurred to me I might find a partner who was into the same stuff. But then when I was 25, I became a professional model. And in my first week as a model, I was invited to an art gallery that turned out to be a BDSM exhibition.

[00:20:49] So having thought I was completely alone in the world, I suddenly saw an art gallery full of pictures of what was inside my mind. And it was the most extraordinary. I mean, it almost felt like a kind of spiritual experience. So you work for a number of years as an actress. I love the story of you touring as a Christian theater troupe, trying to wrap your way through getting kids to make good choices. That was just as also an actress. I was like, that sounds so painful.

[00:21:18] And then you end up at this art gallery with through a photographer you met through acting and modeling. What was that like to see your inner secret fantasies in an art show? You know, I can see how it might have been sexy. That might have been my response. But all I remember is just relief because I thought it was literally just me in the world with these weird ideas. And then suddenly I was in a beautiful gallery full of artists who'd made this work. So it's not like I just met one person who was into it.

[00:21:48] I met a room full of people who were into exactly the same thing as me. And I just thought I was alone in the world. And the feeling of just relief that I'm not alone. There's a community that I can be part of. It still gives me just goosebumps talking about it because I remember what a shock it was. But it was just the best shock ever. It was amazing. Hey, Kalti listeners.

[00:22:14] As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together. And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us. That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self-Publishing Agency or TSPA. Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out, the Self-Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline. You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world.

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[00:23:06] That's theselfpublishingagency.com to start your very own publishing journey today. Enjoy. This podcast wouldn't exist without our fantastic, supportive, generous patrons. Come find us over on Patreon. We're at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:23:33] Go there for bonus episodes, exclusive content, and the occasional Zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes. Subscribe now and join us. That's patreon.com slash a littlebitculti. And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast. Okay, let's talk underwear. How many of us are rocking mismatched underwear drawers that look like a thrift store exploded?

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[00:27:15] So BDSM stands for bondage, domination, discipline, submission, sadism and masochism. So it's a kind of umbrella term. And I'm a submissive. So all of my interest had always been in the idea of being tied up, maybe spanked, maybe captured in some way. And so the work that I found that day was a whole load of pictures of beautiful people tied up,

[00:27:40] all these kind of suggestive images with whips and canes and things like that in the picture with beautifully dressed people. So that's what I'm into. And that's what I found that night in the gallery. Just loads of images of exactly the sort of thing I wanted to do. I have a couple of questions. Yeah, go ahead. All right. So the BDSM. So was it strictly submissive? And when does it get masochist?

[00:28:09] Like, how do you know what was yours? And how do you know it wasn't like a whole spectrum? Does that make sense? I personally, and I would describe myself as a submissive masochist. So I'm interested in both being hurt and being dominated. But there are lots of people under the kind of spectrum who would just be interested in one of those things. So they might be just submissive or just dominant, but not interested in pain. And then there are people who are just into pain and they're not really interested in the kind of dynamics of it.

[00:28:39] But for me, both of those areas are just fascinating. You know, the idea of being controlled from a mental point of view without any pain happening, that's interesting. But just the sensations associated with being hurt are also very interesting. So there was a whole world of things that I wanted to explore. And 21 years later, I'm still exploring them. I mean, I don't think I'm ever going to get bored of it. I've just got a really wide ranging interest in this stuff, which is very lucky given the job I do.

[00:29:09] Do you find it expands? Do you feel like you have to amp up in order for it to be more pleasurable? Is it like... This is something that seems to worry people a lot about BDSM. The idea that it might be like a drug that you'll keep looking for a higher high... Yeah, I guess that's what I'm asking. Yeah, that it might be, you know... Yeah, like simple BDSM might be the gateway drug to you ending up wanting to just get castrated or something really permanent and terribly damaging. There's also evidence of that. You hear about it in the media, I guess, like asphyxiation, Michael Hutchins.

[00:29:39] And by the time it hits the media, there's no... You're hearing a bad scenario, right? I agree. You do hear about it in the media. But interestingly, the World Health Organization, who have researched this along with a whole load of other health things, the DSM, they both agree at the moment that there actually is no evidence that people need to escalate sexually in order to keep getting higher highs. And for me, I must say, that is borne out.

[00:30:03] But my fantasies when I was a teenager are still exactly what I like doing now. It's just that as I've gone along, I've found out some more variety involved. But by no means do I need more stimulation now than I did when I started doing it. And broadly speaking, in my social group, that's the same. If what you want to do is be spanked over someone's knee, it's not like in 20 years' time you'll want to be bull-whipped by 20 people. Like, yeah, on a mountain or something.

[00:30:33] It doesn't seem to work that way, which is good because obviously that's very dangerous. If that was the case, it would be very dangerous. But that said, some people are into some very extreme things like breath play and there is some inherent risk involved in that. And it's a little bit difficult to know how to manage it because if it's your fantasy, then you're going to feel compelled to try it. And our sex drives are so powerful. In reading your book, I wasn't concerned about that.

[00:30:58] I was more concerned of you just going to these strange places with men you had just met and just worried for your safety. That was more my concern. But you seem to be very cognizant of the steps to take to keep yourself safe. I mean, I am now. I think that was a genuine problem that, you know, I'd spent nine years of my adult life had gone by without experiencing any of these things.

[00:31:24] And so when I found out I could experience these things, I mean, there was a kind of frenzy to I wanted to do all these things immediately. And so, no, I did some ridiculous, risky things at the beginning because I didn't know how to keep myself safe. And I'm really embarrassed looking back. Unfortunately, nothing terrible did happen to me. But now I run a YouTube channel specifically for new models to try to stop them doing some of the stupid things that I did at the beginning of my career. Good. That's so smart.

[00:31:52] I imagine the more extreme it gets, the more you might run into people that don't have other boundaries as well. And I imagine the demographic of people gets smaller, too. Like you might know each other. Well, it's interesting, you know, because I have worked as a fashion model and an artistic nude model and as a BDSM model. And actually, my worst experiences have been with fashion photographers. So I'm not sure that they're kind of. Yeah, I bet.

[00:32:19] Yeah, so I don't think there is a larger proportion of predators in the BDSM community than in the fashion photography. I bet there's more in the fashion photography, yeah. Well, that certainly has been my experience because I do think that one thing that happens if you're kinky and if you get involved in kink is that consent, informed consent has been something that we've been talking about and worrying about for decades.

[00:32:49] And it's interesting to finally see that properly coming into the mainstream. And of course, there are always predators in any community. But broadly speaking, people really have always understood, in my experience in BDSM, there has been a really widespread understanding that consent is everything. And that has not necessarily been my experience when I've been working in fashion, for example.

[00:33:12] So my experience of the BDSM industry has by and large been really positive, which I'm happy to be able to say. Yeah, it seems like, you know, obviously. Transparency. Transparency. The consent is such a big part of the dynamic to have a safe word, to have a way out. And you don't have that in film and television and fashion in the same way. You have coercion. No.

[00:33:39] And it feels like just now, perhaps in film and TV, we're getting intimacy coordinators and we're getting some understanding of this. But I mean, it's pretty recent, isn't it? So, yeah, I'm actually quite proud of the BDSM producers who I've been working with for 20 years, some of whom had that stuff really carefully in place back in 2004 because they understood how important it was.

[00:34:02] You know, there was a moment you spoke about, like, one of the more unfortunate moments in your early career where consent wasn't given and someone crossed the line and you wanted to speak up, but you couldn't. And I thought that was really interesting because you were, you know, a self-proclaimed submissive. And even before that, a people pleaser, right, which I also relate to as what got me in trouble. And you couldn't in the moment say, like, no, this isn't right.

[00:34:31] And even though obviously the content is very different from a cult to a BDSM set or even any set where consent's being mishandled, it's still that same. This is the relatable part that I think people will understand. It's still that relatable, like, oh, I can't say what I need to say because my job is on the line or I want to please. Societal. Yeah, societal and, like, when you're being hired.

[00:34:56] And also, like, I think what a lot of our listeners will really glean from your story, Errol, and I really appreciate your honesty in this. You wanted to be the best of the best. Like, you wanted to be, you wanted top marks. And you're like, I'm going to be the best BDSM model that there is, right? So how does that affect, as also a submissive, your ability to stand up when something isn't right? Like, that's such a fine line. Yeah.

[00:35:19] I think especially when you're quite young and quite new to an industry, and certainly I remember this from being a mainstream actor, it feels like the best performers are the ones who don't say no to anything. They're, like, committed and they're not divas and they don't ask for special things in place so they're comfortable. And so I think I unfortunately took that ethos into BDSM modelling to begin with, where actually that is a terrible, terrible ethos to have.

[00:35:48] And actually one of the things that makes you a good BDSM play partner, let alone a professional, a model, is having boundaries and being capable of communicating them properly. Because for any decent dominant, for them to feel safe dominating you, especially if there's pain involved, they need to know you're going to say if something's wrong.

[00:36:08] And so I eventually, through, you know, getting to know people in this industry, my husband is a really good example, and getting to talk to someone who's on the other side of the camera, and is also dominant, and is the person doing the painful stuff to you, and understanding how dreadful he would feel if I didn't communicate my boundaries,

[00:36:31] and if he crossed them without meaning to. That really helped me to understand that actually, no, just saying yes to everything is not you doing your job well. That's you just compromising yourself in a really unhealthy way. And fortunately, I'm really happy to see that the youngest people entering my industry now, people, you know, in their early 20s, they just seem to be from a different culture, in that they seem to understand that instinctively, maybe because they've lived through the Me Too campaign.

[00:36:57] And it's just, I mean, it just seems so healthy, and I wish I'd been quicker off the mark with that. But having been a ballet dancer, and then an actress, I was just used to saying yes to anything. And it takes a while to get yourself out of that habit. That's actually partly why I'm married to Nibiu, because I say yes first, and he says no first. And now... I say no, let's think about it first. Yeah, now I say, thank you so much for the offer, let me think about it, I'll chat with Nibiu and get back to you. Yeah, and we have a motto, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no.

[00:37:27] That's our new thing. Oh, that's very good. That's very good. Yes. And I do think, honestly, growing up in a patriarchal cult, as I did, the idea of being a woman saying no to a man was not something I was taught to do. And unfortunately, in some ways, my sexuality also kind of tells me, oh, it's a man, you should probably say yes. And so I have to fight against both of those. Because actually, that's, it's not like being a submissive woman is my worldview.

[00:37:56] I don't think women should be subservient to men. I just find it hot sometimes to be subservient to men I chose in the bedroom. And that's a very different proposition. I'm nodding over here. No, I'm actually just having some self-realizations. I made a French maid outfit in grade nine sewing class. And I just loved it. And I've always been, I'm actually having, like, I'm blushing a little bit because I'm just putting something together.

[00:38:24] My mom told me when I was little that I wanted to be a princess when I grew up, a mother, a maid, because I liked the little outfits. I liked the frilly outfit. And then I made it. Well, they are my self-fits. They are. And I made it in ninth grade. And I still have this costume. And I've worn it for probably 10 or 15 different Halloweens in different parts of my life. It still fits me. And I think that might be my kink. I think it might be my thing. French maid? It is a thing, right? I'm a landowner. Can you give us some role play advice? Could this be the...

[00:38:52] Oh, my goodness. Yes. You could be a disapproving Edwardian gentleman. I'm already that. And she is your guy. I'm already that, her. Or you could be the director of the maid training academy. I like this. I'm totally, like, way too hot in this sweater right now. Hold on, hold on. Does that mean she needs to bring some friends to make it a full academy? I would do that for you. Probably, yeah. Some French maid companions. I like where this is going. Okay. See? This is fun.

[00:39:21] Yeah, it's a good fantasy. Now that I shoot custom videos, privately commissioned videos from customers, I get to listen to many people's fantasies every week. And I get to be a French maid a lot of the time. It's clearly very, very popular. And that's amazing. It feels you normalize people's fantasies, whereas most people keep them taboo and whatever. And for good reason, but... Well, no. Not for good reason. Not everyone needs to know that you're into French maid kinks. Well, now our entire audience will. I mean... And that's okay.

[00:39:51] I'm inspired by Ariel. We're normalizing it as well. Yeah, I'm normalizing it. So we're pioneers right with Ariel right now. Ariel, you really helped me in my kink journey. Now, back to our interview. Thank you for that little interview. I run an academy now, evidently. Yes. He's going to really enjoy this. I know he will. But it's so interesting what you're saying about the submissive versus like your actual feminist worldview. And I think, you know, that's such a fascinating topic.

[00:40:21] And for me is like, you know, my parents are therapists and my not therapist brain is going, you know, this is a total like dime store analysis is like, you would think that given you were in such a controlling patriarchal system that you'd, you know, be the dom, right? So... I know. That would seem... Like the sort of... Like, it would be so much easier to justify. Right? Yeah. No, it would be... Isn't being the submissive somewhat dominating the man a little bit? I don't think so.

[00:40:49] Like, I agree that if I could go around telling people, well, I grew up in a cult and now I like to dominate men, it would feel so powerful. It would sound... People would understand how I would have got to that point from there. And it used to make me feel very uncomfortable. Actually, I grew up in a cult where women were silenced in so many different ways, weren't given any power. And then that's what I want to do in the bedroom. And then after a while of worrying about it and thinking about it and having therapy,

[00:41:17] I realised that actually that was in me from my earliest, earliest memories. I don't think it's as a result of trauma. And maybe even growing up in a patriarchal cult couldn't take that away from me, that thing that is essentially mine. No amount of bad socialisation could stop me being what I am, which is a submissive masochist. And I'm glad that wasn't taken away from me.

[00:41:42] And I'm damned if I'm going to start dominating men and turning them on rather than myself just to try to make myself feel like I've escaped my background. Because I love what I am. I love it. And I don't buy the kind of myth that when you're a submissive, you're really actually wanting to dominate. I mean, lots of people are into both. But I do think there is a deep and fundamental equality in a BDSM relationship because you're

[00:42:08] both giving each other, the dom and the sub are giving each other what they need. It's like a dance and both partners are equally important, although they're playing different roles. So actually, I don't think there's anything at all unequal in what I do in the bedroom or what I do at work, even though it appears to, you know, it looks from the outside, it looks very unequal. But the reality is not that. I actually think that's great and very healthy.

[00:42:33] And if I imagine it, even though the submissive or your role as a submissive is the quiet one, you still are in full control. So there is a power, I would imagine, in that. And it fills your cup from, like you said, even before you were, you know, pulled into the church, which I think is amazing. And you also still get to have your sort of revenge. One of my favorite parts of your book is when you named your character after an elder.

[00:43:02] The Jehovah's Witness leader. Something Rutherford. Yes. Franklin Rutherford. Something something Rutherford, which I just thought was hilarious. And your own little, you know. Well, there's a power in the submissive. I think that's what we're figuring out. Being on the other end of it, I can attest to it. No, there is like a primordial thing in men. Oh, being on the other end of it. I thought you were saying that you're a submissive. I'm like, you are not a submissive. No, no, sorry. I wasn't clear.

[00:43:30] Being on the other end of a woman being, being on the other end of a woman being submissive, does fill aspects of my cup sexually. And I think that's a natural primordial thing in a lot of men. I think that, you know, even in vanilla sex, the power of giving your partner what they want and receiving what you want in return. I mean, that is a beautiful and powerful thing in itself. So no wonder for people who are wired that way, having a satisfying BDSM experience is

[00:43:59] going to be this kind of powerful exchange of power, like the giving over of power and the receiving it from someone else and satisfying each other, pleasing each other. I mean, it's like vanilla sex in that it should work for everyone. It should give everyone something. It should make everyone feel like they're on top of the world. And I think that's great. And that's why I'm very excited about this episode, because it may have seemed obscure at first, but it's totally related and very much relevant to everything we talk about,

[00:44:27] especially because, and we say all the time on our podcast, that any group can become culty. In other words, any group can have people or a person or a group, whatever, within the group that abuse their power, which is where things become toxic, culty, unhealthy. Do you see any of that in your space? Yeah, sometimes, to be honest, yes. And I think I'm very sensitive to it coming from a religious cult. I really don't like it when people approach BDSM kind of as though it's a religion.

[00:44:56] So they might start kind of saying, oh, it should always be like this, or they should, or they might start judging people who do things a different way. And whenever I see anything like that, I just feel like backing away from those people, because I think I've already had plenty of religion in my life. I don't need to turn my sexuality into a religion. It's one of the things that made me so angry, starting to read a little of your story,

[00:45:21] seeing how a cult had kind of taken some BDSM elements and used them against people. Well, I think the kind of religion and sexual things should be kept really, really separate. When they mix together, it feels like it can be a really toxic and dangerous thing. For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir.

[00:45:46] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. I narrate the audio version, and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast. Okay, let's talk underwear. How many of us are rocking mismatched underwear drawers that look like a thrift store exploded? I used to be in that camp, but then MeUndies entered my life, and it was like a choir of angels singing,

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[00:49:05] HungryRoot.com slash culty. Code culty. Enjoy. Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty. It's a good one. So we were emailing a little bit about this beforehand, and I know you don't know the full scope, but within this personal development program that we were in, we were invited to join a sisterhood where we were going to be in a master-slave relationship.

[00:49:33] And it was supposed to be not sexual. Like, that was something that I asked right from the start. It turned out that was a lie also. What angered you about it, and what comments do you have about why it is not okay what happened? The first thing that made me really, really, really bloody angry is that it sounds like there weren't any men being branded, were there? No. Just women. Just naked women, of course. Of course it was.

[00:50:00] Because it, yeah, that's just, whenever there's just this inbuilt gender inequality, it makes me so cross because it sounds like there was a pervy man behind all that enjoying the idea that there were going to be naked women getting branded with his bloody initials. Like, have I got that right? Yeah. Yeah, that's about it. Yeah. So that's the first thing. Then the second thing is, I've been in this community and industry for 21 years.

[00:50:27] I know two people who've experimented with branding in all of that time because it's a really extreme activity. And I can see the appeal of it sexually, but there are a whole load of ways to play with the idea without permanently damaging someone. So, for example, when my husband and I first started playing together, he wrote his initials on the back of my neck with henna tattoo, with like henna ink. So that lasts for maybe a month. And it was a really fun role play thing to do.

[00:50:57] And I got the experience, some of the experience of branding without any permanent damage. And the people I know who did get as far as doing branding in a BDSM context, they did it with someone they'd chosen with informed consent. They got to talk to people who'd played with that idea before. So they had an idea of how painful it was going to be. And none of that was extended to you.

[00:51:21] The informed consent about the level of pain, the informed consent about what you were actually being branded with. As a BDSM practitioner, the other thing that makes me so angry about it is if you're into branding, that's fine. You can go and do that as a BDSM activity with someone who's into that sexually as well. What you do not do is you go taking your kink of having your initials put onto other people permanently. Pretend it's not a kink.

[00:51:49] Pretend it's like a religious activity. Dress it up as that and abuse people into taking part in it with you. Historically, we've seen it a lot in the mainstream church. We've seen because of the authority that priests have, for example, they have sometimes abused that authority by sexually abusing members of their congregation. We've seen it a lot in the Catholic church with boys being abused by priests.

[00:52:13] And they're using their religious power to get what they want sexually, sexual gratification. And I'm so sorry that happened to you because if you'd wanted to do branding as part of a BDSM thing, you would have got to choose how it happened to you. And what happened to you is disgusting to me. And I'm so sorry you experienced that. Thank you, Ariel. It's validating to hear that from a professional.

[00:52:40] And, you know, the more and more conversations we have around this, like even when we left, I knew that it was bad, which is why we left. But I didn't even understand that people did that, that humans are ever branded. I didn't even understand that the slave and master was a thing in a certain context that could be, you know, fun and safe for people, you know. Sure. I mean, why would you? And the idea of that being kind of your sort of innocence in that regard being used against you is, you know, it's really appalling.

[00:53:09] And I do hope as time goes on, as there's better education about being kinky, I just hope that people wouldn't be able to get away with something like that. Because maybe this generation of teenagers, if someone suggested that to them, they'd be like, oh, I saw that on Pornhub. It looked awful. I'm not doing that because they'd have some idea of what it meant. And I don't like to. It's not like I want everyone to watch porn.

[00:53:32] But I do think when you're really innocent about the sort of sexual things people could be into, you sometimes get trapped doing them because you don't realize it might be sexual for them. Porn at an early age, you don't want people's first experience of sex to be porn or watching. At least I don't think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. That's my comment on that. No, no. I absolutely agree.

[00:53:58] But I also I don't want our population of people in their 20s to be so innocent of kind of the variety of sexual things someone might be into is that they get BDSM presented to them like a religion. And they just go, oh, I think I'm oh, I'm in a new religion because because it just that kind of ignorance makes people very easy to control. Which is a good segue to the next question is what pushback or judgment do you get and how do you handle it?

[00:54:28] It's amazing. Like there's so much discrimination. So PayPal won't let sex workers. No, they won't. They won't let us. So if they find out what we do, they just shut our accounts down. Same with Airbnb. They say they don't discriminate. But I know so many people whose accounts have been shut down. Multiple friends of mine have had their bank accounts shut down. And, you know, these aren't people doing illegal stuff. They are doing legal work. They are they are shooting content that you are allowed to produce.

[00:54:55] You know, I'm not talking about some kind of dark web extreme porn. So there is genuine daily discrimination against people who do what I do for a job, which obviously isn't the same as just doing it in your private life. Hopefully, if you're just kinky in your private life, you won't experience so much of this. That said, I know some kinky people who've been driven out of their towns or even their country sometimes just by people in their local community finding out what they're into and seeing them as kind of a threat to the community. And making them feel so unwelcome that they've left.

[00:55:25] So, no, it can be kind of problematic. And it's interesting. You know, my book has just come out in the USA and it was really hard to find a book publicist who'd take it on like really hard. I had to send a lot of emails before I found someone who was liberal minded enough. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. I mean, especially in today's day and age. No, I'm shocked actually. Well, there's all this fear around the over-sexualization of our children that I think is kind of the current political backdrop and stuff that you're going to have to face.

[00:55:55] And certain people just don't want to go near that because they're just intellectually lazy or whatever to do the work and figure out how it might be an opportunity to educate people. Yes. So I think that's kind of what's needed too. But it's so interesting to experience it because the USA is like, it is the biggest producer of pornography in the world. So I kind of thought it'll surely be OK. I'll be able to find people who will help me with my book.

[00:56:24] But I mean, and I have, but it was harder than it was in Europe for sure. And it was interesting because Stormy Daniels autobiography was a New York Times bestseller. So I kind of thought I might be all right because I don't feel as though what I do is as kind of shocking as what she's done. So, yeah, it's been an interesting experience for sure. And I think, well, the Stormy Daniels is kind of two camps, right?

[00:56:47] I don't know anything about Stormy Daniels. Like there's two distinct polarities with Stormy Daniels. You're presenting it and you're adding context to it and bridging a gap that people just don't think should be bridged probably. That's my guess. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably true. And, you know, I don't mind.

[00:57:17] I just think it's very interesting. It's an illustration of where we are as a society in acceptance of atypical sexual identities. That's all. And so I'm glad to know because I didn't know that. I didn't know it would be so hard to get published. Is it better in the UK? Yes, somewhat better, but still quite hard. So I'm just about to start pitching my second book to publishers. And I'm really interested to see if it's going to be equally difficult. I'm hoping not. But everything I learn, I can just write more about it. So I don't mind.

[00:57:45] Well, it's impressive to hear you talk about it. And I don't want to say normalize it, but it feels like a normal conversational piece. It should be. It should be. Right. It should be. I think it should be because it's, as a sort of conservative estimate, about 10% of us are into BDSM. So it's not a small minority of people. Those are the ones willing to be honest about it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I've seen people, statistics say up to 50% of us might be into it on some level.

[00:58:14] But I think, to be fair, probably 10%-ish of us are really into it. Like we really want to do it. We're not just open to the idea. It's a kind of need in us. So the idea of 10% of the population going around thinking it should be a secret they should never share is quite a horrible idea. And I really hope that the work I do will just make a few more people feel a little bit less uncomfortable with being kinky because we don't get to choose what we're into sexually.

[00:58:42] So I think it's really good for us as a society to be kind to each other over this sort of thing because we don't get to choose. This is, as far as I can see, this was just in my DNA. And all I can do is make the best of it. So I'm hoping I can do that and help other people to do the same, really. I think it's great.

[00:59:01] I think it's really liberating and inspiring and just shows so much of your character to care so much about other people as well, that you want people to be as free as you've been able to be. I think that's really wonderful and a real gift. Not talking about something is always the worst option. Yeah.

[00:59:22] And I just I think when I was writing and often still when I'm writing, I just think of the 16 year old me thinking she should maybe kill herself because she was kinky. And I just think no one should feel like that about their sexuality. Your sexuality is one of the best things in life. Like discovering your sexuality should be this happy thing. The idea that it should make you feel so ashamed that you don't want to be alive anymore is just awful.

[00:59:49] And I still meet people who experience that, you know, when they realize what they're into sexually. They just think, oh, no, I'm a kind of invalid person. And so kind of trying to write back to the person I was and anyone who's a bit like the person I was has felt like a very compelling thing to want to do to sort of write what I wish I'd been able to read when I was a teenager, I suppose. I feel like we went on this tangent and I don't think I fully asked you about feminism and how you are able to speak about that.

[01:00:19] Is there anything else you wanted to say in regards to that? Do you think it's important for people to know that in terms of the dichotomy between those two concepts of being a submissive but also a feminist? Yeah, I suppose I would like to say that when I was 20 and just sort of discovering feminism and thinking about the kind of feminist I wanted to be, it seemed as though being a feminist and being into the stuff I was into sexually, those two things couldn't possibly go together.

[01:00:48] And now as a 47 year old, I just don't understand why I ever thought that. Because for me, at least, feminism is about equal rights, opportunities and responsibilities for women. There's nothing about what kind of sex you should be having. And it just I do not find it difficult at all to advocate for women's rights and also like to be spanked. These two things just they don't seem as though they cancel each other out at all.

[01:01:14] The only thing that I do think is really important for me is because I'm producing this kind of work, I'm putting it out into the world. Lots of videos of me behaving submissively. I just need to keep letting people know that this isn't because I think all women should be treated like this or that all men should naturally get to do these things to women. It's my responsibility to make sure that I keep saying, you know, if I suddenly discovered I was dominant, I would start doing these things to men.

[01:01:40] It's just that so far I don't want to. But women should have the right to be sexually dominant, just like they should have the right to explore being sexually submissive, just like men should as well. We should all get to experience whatever we want and our political beliefs shouldn't stop us being able to do that. Brilliant. Anything else that you feel like we didn't ask you or that you wanted to share with our audience? Knowing that this is largely a, there's a lot of cult survivors and a lot of people that are trying to heal.

[01:02:10] And I think maybe we'll do more on this because, you know, healing after a cult, especially where sex is repressed and people are trying to find who they are sexually. Like I do know that that's a big topic for a lot of people trying to figure out that new path on the other side. Yeah, I suppose I would just say that a lot of the conditioning we get in cults, maybe especially if we grow up in them, you don't always know to what extent it's affected you.

[01:02:37] And I think one of the areas it does seem to affect people is in terms of just sexual repression of just all these ideas about various sexual things being sinful. And even though I've worked in this industry as long as I have, I still struggle with it a little bit. Just the feeling that if I want to try something new, oh God, is it a sin though? And so I suppose I'd just like to say to you, anyone struggling with the same thing, I think it's worth having the fight.

[01:03:04] Like don't let the conditioning that you've experienced stop you having the kind of sex you want to experience. And it can be a bit of a fight and it can be quite scary, but we don't deserve to live with the conditioning that was just foisted upon us for the rest of our lives. So just the thing that I've found is by if you keep doing the thing that you want to do, even though you feel guilty, in the end you stop feeling guilty. So exposing yourself to the things you want to do. Eventually, I think you can fight the conditioning. You're going towards the fear, so to speak. Yes, yes.

[01:03:34] I'm going to add a caveat to a lot of the, a lot of people say that like the religion may have an effect on the person's sexual behavior as an adult. But wouldn't you say most of the time we've come across it, someone under those conditions has sexually abused that person. So sexual abuse oftentimes has a lot to inform that, right? Wouldn't you say that's most of the cases? I don't think she had the sexual abuse. Oh, right, right.

[01:03:58] And a lot of the cases, I'm saying we're attributing it to the atmosphere of the religion, but I would, most of the cases. There's sexual abuse in addition. There's sexual abuse in those churches that's caused it. And I don't think, I think that's more, would be more of a cause of it than the church doctrines alone. Probably both has effects in different ways. I mean, I would say being sexually abused would inform that way more than. Obviously, obviously.

[01:04:25] But there's also, there's lots of cults where maybe someone isn't abused, but the doctrine is like, if this and this, you are going to burn in hell. Like that, that's going to terrify a child. That's going to terrify a child. She's offering up, from my understanding, she's challenging that indoctrination by going towards those fears. I guess, how do you do that? But how do you safely do it? Like, like, do you go online? Do you, like, where do people? Yeah, that's a good question. I think just become a porn star. Just become a porn star. Great advice from Errol Anderson. You're welcome.

[01:04:55] Okay, we're done. Thanks, Errol. Because at least if you do it in a pornographic environment, like I have, you're working on professional sets with people who know what they're doing. And obviously, I'm being facetious. Porn isn't for everyone, of course. But one of the benefits is that you are doing it with people who actually have some skills in that area, which is quite useful if you're breaking into something for the first time. Because I think otherwise, the first time I'd have done kinky stuff would have been with a boyfriend who didn't know what they were doing.

[01:05:24] And as it was, the first experience I had was with someone who knew exactly what they were doing. And it was a really good experience. And I've got the benefit of being able to look back at the pictures of my first experience of BDSM, which is a kind of nice thing. But obviously not for everyone. Don't do porn unless you want to do porn. I should say that to be responsible. That's good advice. I'm past my prime. Yeah. I don't know. Missed that, mate. I missed it. Your portfolio must be quite impressive at this point in your career.

[01:05:53] And I really love how you've taken other young models under your wing and tried to share what you learned so they don't have to learn the hard way as you did. Well, that's what you're doing with your podcast as well, isn't it? Just sort of sending information into the world that would have helped you if you'd been able to hear it at the time, I guess. That's it. That's exactly it. Yeah. It's such a treat to be able to talk to you, Ariel. And I hope that we'll stay in touch. If you ever come to Atlanta, please let us know.

[01:06:22] And I'll do the same. Thank you so very much. This is great. And I have one last burning question from your book, which is I know that your home in Wales randomly happened to have a dungeon in the middle of it, which is perfect for your BDSM scenes. Did you ever figure out what the dungeon was for? Like, did you ever get the history of it? Yes. Okay, tell me. Please do. I do. I do. It was a whiskey maltings. So they made whiskey before it was a house. It was a commercial building for producing whiskey in the 1700s.

[01:06:52] And then a house for the owner was just bolted onto what now we use as a dungeon. So it's a very strange architectural place to live, but it's beautiful. And I absolutely love it. And it's designed just for you. So yeah. And we don't make whiskey in it because we don't know how. It seems very complicated. No, you've got other things to make in that dungeon. Well put, Sarah. You beat me to that one. Yeah. Nice. Thanks. You're getting good at this. Well, I'm going to go dig out my fridge maid costume. And, um... Okay. Ariel, thank you so much.

[01:07:21] Please keep in touch. And we'll, uh... We'll see. I hope to meet you in person one day soon. That'll be great. Thank you. If you like the show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes. Cults are commonplace now, and we're looking at them all, and every little bit helps. Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode. This was probably one of my favorite, like, surprisingly... Spicy? Steamy, wasn't it?

[01:07:51] Surprisingly just... Spicy Stevie, but also just like, I mean, I know I got you about her book. Her book was fascinating. Like, talk about reading a book to get a peek into a life that you'd never know anything about unless you're into BDSM, and that's great. Apparently, time for me to go get my French maid outfit. Yeah, evidently. Thank you so much for being here and for adding a little spice into our lives, Ariel. We love hearing stories about empowerment after surviving a cult, especially from women. If any of you want to learn more about Ariel, check out her memoir, Playing to Lose, How a

[01:08:20] Jehovah's Witness Became a Submissive BDSM Model. We'll also drop her website into the show notes. Thank you for listening, everyone. Please let us know what you think, and see you next time. Bye. Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[01:08:48] A Little Bit Culti is a Trace 120 production, executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames, in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios, and our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.