The Way Back: Gina Wilson On Faith After ‘The Way Down’

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_05]: This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_05]: North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_08]: The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_08]: The Way Back

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult, cult nexium.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail in a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_08]: New York Times, babe. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit Culty, we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_08]: There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at ALittleBitCulty.com.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, babe. Hello. Where are we in our lives? Are we back from Hawaii in the timeline of our... We're back from Hawaii. Are we going to tell people our big news? You're pregnant?

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh gosh. I mean, that would be crazy and amazing. Just kidding.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm 44. I feel like the shop is closed and I mean, honestly, I would have more children. I'd love to.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_08]: It's open for business. Yeah, I mean it's open for business but it's not...

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's open for a deposit. It's not producing new...

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Human beings.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Trying to find a metaphor. Anyway, I was going to share that we're moving to Atlanta.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah. Yeah, we're moving to Atlanta.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_08]: That's kind of big news. We have a date mid-August.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Choice football season starts.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't have a home. We don't have a school. We don't have health insurance but Troy has signed up for football.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the priority, really, is what...

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We can do whatever we want going to Hollywood. Sell everything they have, go to Atlanta with $52 in our pocket and just make it.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_08]: We're just going to make it happen. So all our friends in Atlanta and in the south, we have friends in Nashville and Raleigh and Charleston and all our friends in the south.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Please welcome us. Drop off casserole. Show us around.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_08]: More on that to come. We're actually going to be recording and asking anything with all the incredible questions you guys posted on our Instagram.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And the requisite shout-outs to all the support, which has been amazing.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, so many shout-outs to supporters that have been keeping us going here.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_08]: We actually just recorded an episode with Will Allen from Holy Hell, the documentary Holy Hell, that is about the Bouda Field cult.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_08]: And that was a really important movie that was part of our awakening and understanding what had happened to us.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_08]: So I'm mentioning it now so you have time to watch the movie.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a resource list.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Send our resource list. I'll mention that again, sarahedmanson.com slash resources. That's a growing resource list.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_08]: I need to update it. Please feel free to send suggestions of other things that you think might be good for that list.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_08]: People who just get out of a cult originally started by the OG Bonnie piece.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: What else we got?

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Our guest today also requires some homework if you're so inclined.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Although many of our listeners, I think, watched the way down on HBO Max and suggested it to us.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_08]: And then we had to binge it when we were in Salt Lake City because we couldn't watch in Canada for some reason.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_08]: So we were so excited to connect with Gina who's one of the brave people who spoke out against the remnant church and is also featured in part two.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_08]: So as this episode drops, part two of the way down will have dropped a couple days ago.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_08]: I believe it will be live as of April 28th on HBO Max.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you're familiar with the way down just to give you a little backstory,

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_08]: it's the HBO docu-series that chronicles the rise and fall of conservative Christian diet guru Gwen Shamblin slash Lara who actually died in a plane crash in May of 2021.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And you may remember today's guest, Gina Wilson.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: As a devoted member of the remnant fellowship, the Brentwood Tennessee church founded by the Big Hair Shamblin,

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Gina spent nearly 13 years inside the group as part of the music ministry team

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and also as recruiter and sort of poster child for Shamblin's way down diet program in books.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Gina's 130 pound weight loss made her something of a walking talking testimonial for the diet,

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_08]: which in a nutshell is a method that combines prayer and fasting

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_08]: and a sort of evangelical spin on mindful eating.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Although later allegedly becomes something that sounds a lot more like starvation according to the HBO series.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I want to make a little sidebar here that some of the diet stuff we talk about may be triggering for some of our listeners,

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_08]: especially if you've been in any group that has fat shaming or weird diets.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_08]: And I want you to know I don't go too deep into that in this episode

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_08]: and we will be doing future episodes about the cultiness of diet culture in general.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_08]: But that's not what this episode is about in particular.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: The way down diet and remnant fellowship ministry machine helped propel Shamblin's profile and sell millions of books.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But in 2004, the church came under the glare of a different kind of public attention.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: After an investigation into the death of an eight year old boy whose parents were both remnant fellowship members

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: uncovered that the pair routinely punished the child according to church teachings.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Although the official investigation into the church's role in the boys murder ultimately proved not to be prosecutable,

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the parents were both found guilty of murder and sentenced to life plus 30 years.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Gina joins us today to share more about her experience in the church,

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_08]: the collateral damage to her family unit and how she ultimately escaped Shamblin's clutches after 13 years

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_08]: of what she describes as cultic control and spiritual abuse.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_08]: She also shares how her faith has only deepened now that she's free from the remnant fellowship.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Imagine that. That is a rare thing for our listeners. Here's our conversation with Gina Wilson.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome Gina to a little bit culty.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome Gina.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh wow, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much. I'm really excited about this.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Well we have been anticipating this since before we saw the way down because

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Since Thanksgiving.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, as soon as it aired actually our listenership started sending us messages and photos.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of the photos were about Gwen's hair, which is often the thing that kind of captures attention.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Right? And then as the documentary progressed just people being flabbergasted at what was being revealed

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_08]: but also saying like you have to do an episode on this.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_08]: It wasn't airing in Canada so we had to wait till we went to Salt Lake City and we binged it.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_08]: And we've just been trying to find someone to interview ever since so we're really grateful to Niall,

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_08]: one of the producers Niall Capello from The Way Down who connected us with you.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm excited because this is a long form opportunity to dive a little deeper to some of the questions we had after watching The Way Down

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and we love the long form and we hope that you do too.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely. I mean a lot was shared of my story in the documentary but there's a lot that wasn't so I'm excited about that

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: to have the opportunity to maybe dive in a little bit deeper.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Great. Hopefully they'll have seen the series.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_08]: If they have can you remind our listeners who you are in the story from the doc?

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Well I was the one that, I think it was episode three where they featured my story more.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I had been in remnant for almost from the beginning and I worked there.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I shared a lot about just my personal story of my family trying to get out,

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the things that were happening to me in my marriage because of all the control

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and I told a little bit of my story about the abuse and the horrific things that they did to me to keep me down

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and not allow me to get the help I needed and we needed in our marriage

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: which ended up opening my eyes honestly to see what was going on there.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I had a jean jacket on and I was the one that looked really mad and tired.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, fair enough.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We've been in a jean jacket as well.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Jeana before you were mad and tired and all that stuff happened.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_08]: So you joined in around 1999, is that right?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_08]: That's when the church got started if I did my research, right?

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. We started in the fall and I believe the church started in like April of that year.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were pretty close in after it started there weren't too many in there yet.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_08]: And did you join through the weight loss program as well or how did you get in?

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_08]: What was your hook?

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well the weight loss program definitely was how we got introduced to the church.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I had joined the way down workshop. That's what was called back then.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It was in virtually every church in the country and very popular.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I had been successful in that and we lived in the Nashville area

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and we kind of bumped into Gwen at an event at another church that she had just left.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I think she was members of that church at the time and had gone back to see some friends.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We bumped into her there.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: She was adamant to speak with us and pursued us, kept talking to us

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: about what was going on with this new church and wanted us to hear more about it.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: She sent me a lot of emails about it, things she had been writing about and studying

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and she called me.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt actively recruited into the church.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It felt very natural at the time to kind of move into that realm

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because there were so many people starting to talk about this church in the realm of

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: we're all like-minded, we've all got the same common beliefs

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and just kind of make sense to all have community together.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of what we were drawn to in the beginning.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: She actively recruited and she offered to come speak to a class I was leading at the time

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in Murfreesboro which was a big deal for Gwen Shamblinda.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of class?

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I was doing a class at the church I was attending at the time.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd been leading classes for a couple years.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_08]: So these are religious classes in the church, nothing to do with the way down?

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it was a way down class in the church.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That's how she had it going in the beginning was through the churches.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like on a Thursday night you do a Bible study and one of the offerings was this

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: faith-based weight loss program and it was everywhere.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Just to backtrack for a second, so you done the way down,

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_08]: faith-based weight loss, you liked it then you became a teacher

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_08]: and you were teaching it but you hadn't been in direct contact with Gwen

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_08]: up until that time that she sort of sought you out.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Right?

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Not on any personal level really.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I had met her when we did some filming, she updated the class videos

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and I had just lost all of my weight and so I was contacted by

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: way down to be a part of that so I met her through that

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and had a couple of brief interactions with her

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and a few other, you know, I was on a local channel,

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, news thing one night about it, et cetera.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we did 2020, they came down to, you know, at her height

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: when she was doing Larry King and all that.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We were asked to be there and give our testimonies for that.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So she had celebrity status.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, absolutely.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: She was definitely a celebrity to us and I say us, you know,

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: as my ex-husband but we went into it together.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I started the program first and he started seeing changes

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in me weight loss wise so he started diving in and doing it

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was successful so we were both really all in with

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the program and very in awe to, you know, be able to,

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: wow, you know, speak with Gwen Shamblin and she's calling me.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, I had a question just as somebody who's into health

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_08]: and wellness and not a dietitian or nutritionist in any way

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_08]: but I was curious when I'm watching the doc what the actual diet

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_08]: was and that it was faith-based and I did hear some clips

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_08]: of Gwen saying like in the moment where you want to eat

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_08]: that you pray instead.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that accurate?

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, pretty much.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you did other things too but you know,

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you couldn't always just stop, drop and pray.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you're working or whatever.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But the concept was and I still believe in it today.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was very revolutionary the way that she presented it.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the concept has been around a while of intuitive eating

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but to put the faith-based part of it with it,

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it was very revolutionary at that time for the church

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to hear that, that you could bring God into that

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and I remember thinking, you know, before I found the way down

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I had struggled with my weight for years.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I was in a hopeless state like I guess I'm just going to be this way

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and nothing's working and I was miserable

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and I had this thought in my mind for years

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that if I could just lose weight, I'd be happy.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: My marriage would be better, you know, it would be great

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and everything would just be wonderful.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I never considered bringing God into it

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that was the part that really lightbulbbed in me.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So the concept was you're intuitive with your body

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and you eat when you're hungry

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and you stop when you're full

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know, like you drink when you're thirsty,

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that's to me and you didn't have to like have this list of restricted foods.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You could, you know, you were free to eat whatever your body was calling for

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and I didn't have to say no to fried chicken and pizza anymore

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: so I went into it with that

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and it changed my world

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: because I was free from the diet mentality

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and I saw results very quickly

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know there are times that you're really wanting to eat

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're really not needing to eat

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not fuel at that moment, it's just head hunger.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what she called it was head hunger or emotional eating, you know.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Which is a thing.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Stress eating, that's what I call it, it's definitely a thing.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, that's when you would just pray.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You'd ask God to just help you to have the strength to wait upon him

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: for the right time to eat and you get in the word.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Look for him to strengthen you and help you through that time.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what she meant by that

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and it really, it changed my world like I said.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like wow, I had no idea that I could do this

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and that would work.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So the calculated move on her part, a shrewd business move on her part to do

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because she did have background in nutrition.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you considering that at the time

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or like did you feel any ill intent or bad intent?

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: What was going on at that point?

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: No, not initially.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: She was very charming and you know warm

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and just a cheerleader for you

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and just seemed like she was just out for your good

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and I do believe in the beginning this is my own personal feeling

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but I do believe that she had good intent in the beginning.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it got to her head later.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's just my question.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't sense it at all.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was years later I started seeing it over time

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that things are changing, promoters are changing.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's clear too if you look at her art too

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that even just listening to certain audio

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and even her appearance got a little bit more extreme

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: from what felt more integrated in a societal thing

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and got more extreme as she got removed from it.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my impression.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Me and my friends and former members

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: we laugh about this a lot

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: is like the more power she got

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: the more control she got the bigger her hair got.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was just kind of a sign over time.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_08]: You definitely see that.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: The hair is an indication of our timeline.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_08]: So with the diet

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_08]: you could eat whatever you wanted

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_08]: there was no emphasis on what's healthier

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_08]: and unhealthier like no fried foods

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_08]: or too much carbs or anything.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_08]: It was just like portion,

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely complete freedom.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you know being in tune to what your body is calling for

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like not eating chocolate three times a day as she taught

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_08]: but my body calls for chocolate sometimes.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_08]: It does.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It absolutely does.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: All day.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_08]: I guess to me and we've talked about this before

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_08]: like we're not religious

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_08]: but I do have a connection with something

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_08]: I just don't call it God.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_08]: For me I would interpret that as like being mindful

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and being present and like connected to myself

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_08]: or my higher power and everything.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_08]: What that is and that would make me realize

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_08]: okay I'm just like emotional.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_08]: I want to stuff it down with some chocolate.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_08]: That's not healthy right now.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_08]: That I think it sounds like the good part

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_08]: whether you call it God or whatever

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_08]: what was unhealthy about it?

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_08]: I guess is the question.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Why did it become a problem?

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: When I got into remnant is when I started struggling

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: when the control started coming in more and more

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: she got it off of the basic freedom

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of just listening to your body

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and she started coming in and controlling things

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and I started getting really whacked out

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and then it started becoming severe restriction

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of being able to eat and you know like eating

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe a half of a biscuit in the morning

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: with coffee and then not eating anything

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the rest of the day maybe a light salad

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: at seven o'clock at night

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and that'd be all I'd eat all day.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the unhealthy part.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Extreme moon health.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_08]: You were doing the program

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_08]: she brings you into the church

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_08]: like what was good about the remnant church

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_08]: that drew people in do you think

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_08]: and what were they signing up for

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_08]: in addition to the supportive structure

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_08]: around the diet.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know during that time when she was

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: at her height popular and her book was on

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the best seller list she was on Larry King

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the view and all that she was on Tyra Banks

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: at one point later on and remnant tube

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody knew of her

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: so everybody was very aware

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of the good from the program

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think there was just a lot of people

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like me and my ex-husband that were just

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling like this is a natural thing

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: to just be around like minded people

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know this wasn't really being

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: taught in the mainstream church

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it was you know on a lower level

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of outside of the church doctrines

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but people were really having a lot of

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: success so you know that's what drew

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: me in was I just wanted to be around

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: other people that were experiencing

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: what I was experiencing.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It took us to a higher level of

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: spirituality seeing God really

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: move in our lives and we can pray

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and get our prayers answered

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and start feeling like we're getting

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: blessed for walking in what she was

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: teaching was you know obedience

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to not having greed and gluttony.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Abedience to God or obedience to the

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_08]: scripture or obedience to her

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_08]: or all of that.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Well in the beginning it was to God

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely obedience to God

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so that drew me in and I'm sure

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that was a big draw for many people

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: was just to have the ability to

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: commune with other people of like

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that mind.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering because you had done

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the weight program where a lot of

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the original members people that

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: had performed well in the weight

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: previously and think that might have

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: been one of the reasons she

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: contacted you because you had

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: demonstrated that you could follow

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: at least her instructions or her

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: interpretation so was that

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: original group a lot of those

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: people. Absolutely.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't really considered it like

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that but I think you're probably

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: more concerned about that.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: attention through your merit I

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: can imagine it feels pretty good

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: when she reaches out to you.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah that's a good point and I

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: saw that throughout the years

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in remnant that if you wanted

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to get close to Gwen you needed

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to be super thin a yes man

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: or a yes gal you know to get

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: around her have time with her.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You're a worker. You're a worker. You can stick to a plan so she understands that.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's going to need people to be working and you're one of those people.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm guessing if she's strategic in this, she wants people that aren't sitting around not working the plan.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. That's a fact.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was a good commercial for her wherever I went.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was natural for me to put her up on a pedestal and she let me.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And she let us all.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: She did.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure she didn't mind that.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Ah, okay. So I'm getting a sense of...

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Get the ecosystem, right?

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, the ecosystem and how many years was it when you say when things were good for people to remember the documentary?

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_08]: This was in that big... Did you move immediately into that big church, that big Ashland? Is that what it's called?

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Ashland?

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Ashland was where she lived.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That was her mom.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, right. Okay.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: The big white church was 1999 when they started the church and it was 2004, I believe, when we went into the church.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So we met for several years at way down in their office space and then as it grew, we moved into their warehouse space.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess for two or three years we were there.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Can you explain to somebody who's maybe not super well-versed in the different distinctions in Christianity

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_08]: what was the difference between say just your standard Christian church and then the remnant church?

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_08]: What was the other... From what I understand, there was a dismissal of the Holy Trinity as part of the...

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Like this is a distinction.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_08]: What was Gwen saying made remnant the one true church?

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: In the beginning, you know, the big draw and what she was talking about, you know, encouraging people to get into it was that this really was the one true church.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That all the churches out there where her program had been in, she was everywhere doing that.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Her premise was to get people to leave their church, to start talking about how the current church you're in is not fulfilling what you're meant to have.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not supporting you. It's not telling you the truth. It's not helping you to overcome what she called this greed for food and idol idolatry.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you're being misguided. They're false. This is the truth here. This is where you're going to get the truth.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This is where God's calling you to be. So she used that a lot in the beginning, you know, to kind of bring people in and have them leave their church.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then people would be on staff at churches and they would just fill this conviction when she would share these things.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was going around and I was going with her, you know, some of us, the new members in this early stage,

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: we were going around to different parts of the country and she was holding these little events to bring people in to tell them about remnant and to try and get them into remnant.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she'd talk them out of their church and tell them what was wrong with their church and how she had the hold on what was right and scare them.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Scare us all. And so people were leaving staff positions and scared to go back in and like God's going to strike us dead if we go back in the doors there and he's going to turn his face from us.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: She was already doing some of that. It was, you know, minimal, but we were still hearing some of it.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_08]: No, listen, no judgment here because we joined something with very little information.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it was all based on what people we trusted said.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I never checked Keith's resume or, you know, his credentials.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We checked him with the wrong people.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_08]: We checked with the wrong people, right?

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. I could say the same.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. So I guess what I'm hearing is that people were going based on her charisma and her fortitude and her delivery.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, she also has a little bit of validation from media and she has cachet.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what I was doing. I was looking at, well, everything she's been teaching me so far, look at what it's doing for me.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had that in my mindset as well.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I just look at like, you know, because we've interviewed other people from different religions where

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_08]: so much of the doctrine is based on somebody saying, I've spoken to God and this is what he's telling me to do.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_08]: And I guess for someone who doesn't have that same religious background, my question is, but how do I know you spoke to God?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Nippy and I joke and I hope this isn't offensive. If it is, I'll cut it out, you know,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_08]: but like since then I've been saying, I spoke to God, Nippy, and he says, you need to buy me flowers or like buy me a mess up.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm like, he called me first and told me he was going to say that to you.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_08]: We joke, but like I don't want to be offensive because I know that you have a connection and I totally respect that.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Like 100%. What I question is somebody from the outside is going, how do you know when someone says,

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_08]: I spoke to God and this is the way? How does that feel? How does that resonate with you?

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it because of who she is? Is it because of the street cred? Is it because what she's saying also resonates?

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: She definitely had the credentials there in my mind of, you know, what she's teaching is bearing out fruit.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And she used that a lot as she would talk about that and she would bring in scriptures

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that made sense. One that she would use a lot would be where Jesus says to look,

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: examine your leaders and your teachers and examine the fruit of their lives.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And she would say that all the time, examine the fruit in my life. Examine the fruit in your life

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: from what I've taught you and know that I'm speaking for God. And some of it did make sense.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Even today, I think over time she used that to her advantage more and more to control us

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and to pick apart and twist the scriptures. And when someone says, well, God told me that

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to do this or that, you know, I usually go back with, well, he hasn't told me that.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's a personal relationship. And so I see now, I mean, I was so naive in so many ways,

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: but I was a seeker. I was seeking for truth. I was easily molded because of her charisma and her

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: love bombing and all of that. And she wanted to put me right to work and gave me a cause and a calling.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like I'm fulfilling God's purposes. And she used that fully to her advantage with

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: me and everyone there. But at some point, you know, you start going in and you start

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: examining the fruit again, and it's not good fruit anymore. What she taught at the beginning ended

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: up being for me what got me out. I just listened to what she told me in the beginning and I did that.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_08]: You examined the fruit? The fruit's not there anymore. It's bad. Or it's rotten. Yes, rotten.

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[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Before you got to that key juncture, looking back now, and I'm sure you've done lots of

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_08]: reflection, share with us and our listeners what were some of the things that you now know are

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Red Flags? Do you remember the first time that you had a moment? You know there was so

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: many times that she would in the beginning love bomb you and you could do no wrong in her eyes and

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: she was just so happy that you were with her and with the church and what a blessing. And then

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: just out of the blue, I remember one time her just not having time to speak to me and just

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of shut me down. We were actively recruiting constantly through the way down classes. That was

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: one of her big goals was to keep local classes going and start doing online to keep bringing

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: people into the church through the way down program. And so she had this little event

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: at the way down office and we brought in people from our class that seemed to be interested in

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the church and I brought her up to meet Gwen after it was over and we were instructed that

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: we weren't doing our job if they weren't in front of Gwen because Gwen was the one that

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: they needed to hear from. She was the voice of God and so I brought this woman up and we stand

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: there and we wait for others to talk to Gwen and then it's finally our turn and I introduce her.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is my friend so-and-so and she's so glad to be here and I just want you to

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: meet her and Gwen just stops and just looks off in the distance and just has this random

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: thought about something to someone else starts talking to him then she looks down starts

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: fixing her boot and the woman's talking to her the whole time and she never acknowledges

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the woman's there. She doesn't acknowledge I'm there and I'm just like, what in the world is

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: going on? Then we end up walking away. You know, she kind of goes, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh, good

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to meet you and I've got to go take care of something and she's gone and I thought that

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is the rudest thing I've ever seen in my life and that was so embarrassing to me because

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I had edified Gwen to this woman all week. I remember thinking what in the world is going

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: on? That was probably my first memory of this is bizarre and then she got to where she would do

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that more and more. If it suited her and benefited her, she'd stand and give you time but if not,

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: she'd act like you were just totally unimportant not even there, not even there. Reading your book,

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you had many experiences where you thought oh it's something I did because that's

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: how we were all grooms like oh I did something wrong. I didn't have the right outfit on or the

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: right color on or I spoke too firmly to Gwen and you know I was to assert it. I mean I was always

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: looking at myself like what did I do wrong? I'm such an idiot because that's how she groomed us

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_08]: to be. Right and looking back when did it go from great to not so great? What else was happening

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_08]: in the church and I know you mentioned in your marriage, you started to get involved in

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_08]: like was she couples counseling you or what was happening? A little by little and I tell

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: people all the time that I equate this whole experience to a frog in a pot of water

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and I had no idea that the heat had been turned up and it took years to realize I'm about to boil

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: over but it was just a little by little, just little things like that would just keep happening

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and I would get corrected just out of the blue in front of everybody. A big thing for me was

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: she was constantly on me about my weight and that's when I said earlier that I didn't start

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: struggling with any of that until I was in remnant because she made me so ultra focused

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: on my weight and what the scale said and I was never thin enough for her and she would say it to me

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: in front of whoever she was with and it was so mortifying, so embarrassing and she would call me

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: a liar. She'd say you've gained weight this week and I knew I hadn't because I had been on the

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: scale every day that week because I was so concerned about it and she said you're lying

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: to me in front of just a whole group after church and then she took me into her office

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: she said you need to come with me we need to talk about this in front of everybody

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: she did that kind of thing all the time it was just to keep me down

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: keep her thumb on me but that was a huge source of contention where I just kept thinking this is

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: just not right this is not cool this is not what it used to be and then even when I got as thin

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: as I thought I could get it's still I needed to lose five more pounds. She started having the

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: church fast a lot and some people that really had a lot of weight on them she would call

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: severe struggleers you know she would call a lot of them to a 40 day fast and they had to do it

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean they had no choice in it and you know she would introduce these things every year it'd be

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: more and more repercussions but basically by the end of it you know I knew that well and our

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: whole family knew it my ex-husband knew it we couldn't complain to anybody we couldn't say

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm concerned about this or I'm concerned about what she's doing here we couldn't even talk to

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: each other in our marriage we cannot even have that closeness where we're really sharing our deepest

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: concerns with each other we were taught to turn each other in our children were taught to turn

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: us in you know especially adult children were taught to turn their parents in if they weren't

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: happy enough if we weren't exuding joy all the time if we were having marriage problems

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: if we were seen overeating and certainly if we complained about leaders or Gwen you know

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: we were supposed to turn each other in so you couldn't talk about it you're in constant fear if you

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: did get called in about any of these things or if you didn't get your weight off that was the

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the biggest thing or if you were considered divisive where you know you started talking too

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: much about things that she considered coming against her then you would be threatened to

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: be kicked out of the church and what that meant was we didn't have contact with the outside

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_01]: world really except we had jobs but we were taught and grim to not have any connections

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in the world as she called it you were isolated we would lose everything we would lose our

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: friends sometimes our sources of income we'd be completely shunned like the show a few years ago

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: about leaving Amish you know that's how I felt it's like I'm gonna be totally shunned by the

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: community and not accepted in and then she would divide husband and wife you know for me

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I'd seen it happen many many times and I knew someone personally that happened to that was out

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and she would turn the spouse that was in still in the church she would turn that spouse against

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the one that wanted out of the church and get them to divorce the other and then turn the kids

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: against that parent and bring in a new spouse within months and get them remarried and give the

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: kids a new more godly mom or dad so I would have been out and had lost even my family I wouldn't

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: even had access to my children without years and years and lots of dollars to go to court to fight for

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_08]: that right just before we get into that part of your journey you just said so eloquently and I

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_08]: think gave our listeners again such a clear template like this is so textbook everything you

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_08]: just said you know creating the dependency on the group so you feel like you can't leave

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_08]: having the group self-police the leadership doesn't even have to do it you're all telling on each other

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_08]: and then shunning right like checking off all the all the abuses yeah all the abuses so how long were

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_08]: you in but you knew that you were out how long did that go on for well I would say probably by

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: 2007 or 2008 I was starting to really start processing this more and more let's see probably

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: by 2010 we got out in 2012 so probably a couple years before that I came to a point where I just

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: can't do this anymore and I'm about to have a nervous breakdown and I confided in my oldest

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: sister who lives close by in Brentwood I confided in her that I was having marriage trouble that

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: was how it started and so I immediately got some outside support and we started talking a lot

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and she had been concerned for years I had always just kept her at bay as we were taught to do that

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know stay away from your family because they're going to turn you against us and turn us

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: turn you against the church of course I finally started letting her in and she encouraged me to

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: started examining the fruit she encouraged me to even go to get some counseling just

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: presented the truth wins not allowing you to even get marriage counseling because we couldn't

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: we were not allowed to do any of that it was all her or one of her appointed

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: leaders that we had to counsel with so that got me really kind of thinking maybe I could get out

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of here and I made a couple attempts I just kind of left on a Friday night went to stay with her and

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: texted my ex-husband that you know I'm leaving I can't do this I can't be in the church anymore

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure I can be married anymore by Sunday or Monday they were blowing my phone up so much

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: all the leaders and Gwen herself that they were pulling me back in and bringing to my mind

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you don't want to lose everything you don't want to lose think about your children

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: getting married then you wouldn't be able to be there think about not be able to see your grand

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: babies one day you know so they were threatening me and so I got pulled back in but I think over

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: those last two or three years my marriage was getting progressively more miserable and more

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: miserable that I just couldn't I couldn't stay in anymore because I knew they weren't

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: giving us the help we needed and I knew I couldn't live like this anymore in this marriage

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and I knew that they weren't going to let me be in the church if I left him divorced him so I might

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: as well just get out of the church and so I was trying to build myself up with courage but two or

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: three times man I just got pulled back in because I was so scared I was going to lose it all

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a really horrendous time but it was my marriage that really got me to just like I'm

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: just got to have the courage to do this because I just couldn't live in this marriage anymore and

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to disparage him he was not getting any help no he's in the same environment you

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: we couldn't talk about things and there was definitely some things going on that and I mentioned

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this in the documentary but you were struggling with certain things and there was some infidelities

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01]: even and that was the thing that was pushing me like I just can't continue if we could get

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: some help and I could might maybe can have some hope right because there was definitely a subservience

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to right women to men oh yes yeah and this I guess is what really opened my eyes this is you know

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01]: my awakening as I would be pulled back in by you know these leadership texts and threatening me

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to lose everything if I didn't come back and then I'd go in and I'd have to go see Glenn

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: or I'd have to go see Ted and sometimes it was another leader David Martin you would go in and

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: see Gwen sometimes when it was super bad but she was delegating too because she had so many

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: she was correcting people night and day I mean there was hundreds and hundreds of us that she

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: was having to corral and control I bet that's a full-time job I would go in and you know I

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: would be told by either her or whoever she appointed to talk to me what I was going to say was it

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: all came from her it was her words they were just mockingbirds they didn't know what to say

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and they were only saying what she wanted to be said but you know I would be told well I need to

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: submit more in my marriage and I need to lose 10 more pounds and I need to be more sensual it's

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: all about what I'm not doing and if I just do all those things everything would be perfect in the

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: world in our marriage and wasn't anything he was doing and there was some big things

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: happening there so I was constantly being told it was my fault and I needed to lose more weight

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and submit more and then everything would be fine and that wasn't working it was making it

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: worse I was getting very resentful and he was actually being more entitled it was enabling him

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that's so unhealthy not healthy and he recognizes that today and I just want to say and we really

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: made great peace with each other we're in a really great place and I'm just so thankful for that

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_08]: that's great and did you two leave together in the end we did I know how you woke up but how did

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: he snap out of it when you're in this situation when you feel like it's hopeless and you don't

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: know how in the world you're going to get out of this and I was just going in this spiral

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: downward with anxiety and panic attacks and I was about to crack I found out that there was

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: another transgression that had happened in our marriage and it was like I snapped it's like

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm done I shut down emotionally I'm getting out I don't care what the repercussions are I'm just

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: going to have to trust God and so I feel like my faith in God has increased so much through this

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: process where I know people would scratch their head and go how's that possible a lot of people

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: will say how could a good God let you go through something like that and what I saw in that was

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: God coming in and being my rescuer and he was totally aware you know God's totally aware of

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever we're going through he already knows it and he's just wanting us to lean upon him so that's

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: what I started doing and the more I prayed the more I started asking for help because I'd seen

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: him answer prayers coming into way down all of the wonderful things he had done originally

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew he could and I had lost my faith in that in those years in remnant because she had turned

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it into it was her being the source right off of God that was what was the most evil thing about it

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: in my mind is making people think God is evil it was her that was evil and man is evil and God

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: is not and I want to say that clearly in this and so through that process I wanted out I was

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: going to determine I was getting out I started asking God to give me strength to guide me to

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: help me he started bringing things resources to me and my sisters came in both of my older sisters

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_01]: became just a huge emotional support for me I got in contact with some former members who had been

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: leaders and they started giving me emotional support I started secretly going to see a counselor

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_01]: which was helping I was just getting stronger and stronger but it was a six month period of time

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that I was doing all this inside of there scared out of my mind that I'm gonna get caught

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: they're gonna find out I'm gonna lose my family I'm gonna lose my kids and at the end of that six

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: months when I almost did have a nervous breakdown through it I really believe that God was leading

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: me to bring my ex into it and tell him because I couldn't tell him I couldn't tell my 20 year old

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: daughter as afraid I was going to get turned in but I told him we went away for a family vacation

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to the beach and I told him everything everything that I knew everything that I'd learned all the

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: abuses that had happened to me how many years I'd wanted to get out and I told him I said I don't

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: feel like you've had the help I've had the help we haven't had the marriage help either I want us

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to get out together and get help and so I pled my case before him and I mean he could have

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_01]: turned me in and I could have lost everything but I believe that God came in and gave me

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: favor there because I was putting my faith in him and he was like I went out too I mean

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: it was like a bigger leaf thank you I've been wanting out for years and you know I said it's

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: either you choose in the church or you're choosing me you're not getting both and he was like I choose

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: us I choose us and it was beautiful that was like my first ability to breathe and then from there

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: we you know prayed over you know we got to tell her 20 year old because she's you know of age

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: she could choose to stay in and cut us off and we knew they were gonna try and get her to do that

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's a lot of prayer over that and I believe that there was huge favor it was just

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: gut wrenching it was probably the hardest day of my life one of the hardest days in my life was to

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: have to tell my 20 year old that we're leaving the church because we'd all you know she'd been

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: trained to like oh that's she's coming against God I got to get away from her but you know

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: after about 24 hours she was on board she was like I think you're right I think I see this

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: too and so then we made a plan secretly to get out and to tell the youngest they were 12

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and 13 and we could not tell them till the day we were actually leaving because everybody would

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: have known they would have told everybody you know their friends and everything and so we had that day

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a really hard day for them because they had been brought up in this church they knew nothing

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: but this they had no friends outside of this church they were homeschooled they were there every day

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: they grew up in it it was a gut wrenching day I mean I broke I just broke and wept over these

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01]: children and their friends they knew the consequences we were going to be shunned they'd never be able

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_08]: to talk to their friends or see them again hey cultie listeners lovers of cult busting content

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_08]: alb sears culti kids hmm we've gotten a lot of requests to put up a link where people can

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_08]: throw some funds up behind the podcast and help support what a little bit cult is doing

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_08]: and you know what that's a great idea thank you for that and as we've gotten to know other

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_08]: podcasters and learn more about this whole podcast thing we've been learning that it takes a whole

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_08]: lot of different resources and different sources of revenue and listener support to keep it rolling

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_08]: sponsorships and ads and the occasional appeal to amaze balls listeners like you

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_08]: that's why we added a way for anyone who wants to support the show to do exactly that you

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_08]: can go to a little bit cultie dot com slash support or the link in our instagram bio or

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_08]: smash that link in our show notes to make a one-time contribution or a recurring one we will pay your

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_08]: support forward with a galactic level of love and light and healing resources of course again it's

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_08]: a little bit cultie dot com slash support or check out the link in our instagram bios next up we

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_08]: really got to figure out what to call you our listenership albc nation flying monkeys

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_08]: huh we're gonna have to workshop that thanks guys our team at a little bit cultie podcasts

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_08]: loves the blood ties podcast because it is gritty and current and fascinating it's also a little

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[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: go to cook unity dot com slash culty were you physically moving somewhere or were you

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's gonna stay local and then they you just cannot be a part of the church well we were

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: gonna leave the church officially make it known but we were also putting our house on the market to

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: move and get out of Brentwood so we told the kids and it was a hard day but they got through it and

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we were all on the same page and i just believe that was all god's favor everything was just

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: clicking we sold our house in a week we moved we got to a new city we moved back to murphy's

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: bro they got into public school and adjusted so well it was just a beautiful time it was just

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: like peace was everywhere we knew there was just confirmation after confirmation that god was helping

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: us that really built my faith and helped me believe that hey you know i don't need to assess my opinion

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of god through the eyes of this person man's gonna let us down but he doesn't so i wanted to share

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that i have a lot of hope today for anybody that's in a situation like this i kind of

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_01]: assess it to like the story of moses and the israelites and how horrific that had to

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: been for them to get out of egypt but he got him out he rescued him and i felt like that

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: he did the same for you all i mean i've read your book sarah and i've watched the documentary

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just amazing how everything came together and you all were able to be in unison together

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and coming out it was just a lot of favor yeah a lot of things went right you know we use

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: different words but i agree yeah it's the same force right you got pulled by some dark

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_08]: light and dark and you know it's just different words how's your life now and and what would you

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_08]: say to people because i'm sure there's a lot of people who are in in your boat not just in the

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_08]: remnant church but a lot of the people we speak to in the Mormon church and the she was witness

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and all sorts of churches where they they know it's not right for them but they can't leave

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: because of everything you just said yeah it was the hardest time in my life i have to say

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but yet the most empowering time in my life it's been a hard road since i'm not alive you know and

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: i mean our marriage suffered you know we we got out and you know we got counseling and he got help

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it was maybe too little too late i don't know there was so much damage done you know we ended up

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: divorcing about five or six years later but we gave it you know one last shot outside of

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the control of the church and so i'm really thankful for that that's some major collateral damage

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01]: right and a lot of healing that still needs to be done in all of us them dealing with just

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: social anxiety and this constant condemnation message that was taught them you know never

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling good enough and i'm really proud of what they've done so far they're very strong but

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we've all got a lot more healing to do the marriage suffering it really brought a lot of

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: damage to me and my self-esteem gaining weight from all of this you know going you know i turned

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: away from all the principles for a long time because i didn't want to be loyal to gwen in any

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: way right and i think a lot of people that have left the church you know experienced that and

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of shame and condemnation in that because you know she put that over us for years so

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: i am really in a much healthier place with that in my mind and i'm working on my health and

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: my weight loss i've lost about half of it now and you know i don't feel like that's my in and all

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: of who i am anymore so my identity that's good and so i'm in a new relationship i'm engaged we're

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be married in a few months thank you very exciting times that's awesome have grand

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: babies now my heart really goes out to those that are still in remnant and those that are

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_01]: out and are still struggling and need to heal and i know you know this i mean it's an ongoing

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_08]: thing yeah what would you say to people who are still in if they happen to hear this you know life

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_01]: has a lot of hurts and a lot of pain and it's not your fault god's not mad at you if things are going

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: wrong and god's got so much more for you than to put your faith in a person to be able to walk in

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_01]: freedom and to have control of thinking on your own and letting god even just control your steps

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and guide you instead of walking in fear there's just so much more for you out there and there is

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_01]: life after remnant i think that one of the biggest things that were taught the most in there is

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that if someone leaves remnant god turns his face from them it's a big fear tactic we're

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_01]: going to lose our salvation and i know you all went through so much more serah you went through so

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: much more than i could ever say i went through i can't even imagine i don't know about that

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: abuse is abuse right when you're threatened with your faith and you know your hope for eternity

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: by your performance or lack of it i just think there's just a place for people like that

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that is scary i don't want to ever ever see anyone go there to that dark place but to mess with someone

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_01]: in their spiritualness their faith to make someone lose their faith is very serious it is very serious

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_08]: even though the content of what went on in remnant versus the next game was very

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_08]: different there's so many overlaps and i think one of the main things i see is that it's a lie

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_08]: like you're they're offering this one thing this path of joy and health and community all these

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_08]: things but ultimately the underlying message is you're not good enough and you're made to feel

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_08]: terrible about yourself and always on the hamster wheel you can never achieve it it's a bait and switch

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_02]: also abusing the world of faith it's going in there and knowing people how to leverage people

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_02]: because they have a buy-in to faith and then taking the language over and while pretending to

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_02]: have the faith and promote it it's the ultimate abuse of power i totally agree and

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: i just have to say i've seen those effects on my youngest children and i mean it's devastating

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and our family unit has more healing to do and so i'm committed to that it's a hard walk but it's

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01]: worth walking to be free to be out from under that abuse it takes so much courage to do it

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to have the right reason to get out and it has to trump your reason to stay

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to reach down inside of you and for me it was my kids

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like i will not keep my children in this one more day i will not if even if i have to lose them

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: eventually through this process i've got to at least try you know that's like the mama bear

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_08]: instinct yes i feel it what was it like for you to to watch the way down when it came out

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_01]: it was very hard to watch you know i said at the beginning of this that i was the one that was

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_01]: mad and tired looking it was hard to do that interview yeah everything came back up i had

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01]: spent years trying i felt like i was in a good place but it all came back up i had to push

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: deal with it all again and then watching it again like here we go again i'm glad i did it

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_01]: i really am i've gotten a lot of good feedback a lot of people thanking me for having the courage

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to speak out and i just want more people to have their voice and to feel that strength that well if

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: jenna can do it i can do it good for you thank you do you know what to expect on the next two

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_01]: have they showed it to you yet no i haven't seen it i'm very excited to see it i have no

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: idea all the details but i do believe there's going to be more of a focus on the plane crash

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: yes how was that news for you it's still very surreal to me it's very hard to imagine that you know that

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: she's gone she's not here with us i don't think anybody in my circles you know as much as we

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted them to be exposed we never wanted this right to happen to them we just wanted no

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of course then you know to be shut down you know just stop it it's very surreal but i do think that

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a a message in the way it went down yeah seriously and metaphorically metaphorically

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_08]: exactly right it strikes me as i'm just not sure how the people who remain in remnant would be able

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_08]: to explain that given her clear message that if something is bad in your life that's god's will

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_08]: right what kind of mental gymnastics would one have to do to explain this i have learned as i've

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: dug into my faith jesus christ says to follow him is going to be a path of suffering that if the world

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: hated him the world will hate us and there will be persecution and things are not going to go right

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: for us always um walking this path of following in his footsteps but the reward is great but you

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: know it's that's the exact opposite of what she taught in there that's why look at the fruit right

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: there what she taught in there was if you stay in obedience with god you're going to have blessings

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and favor all the time and nothing's going to ever go wrong and if it does go wrong you've

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: done something wrong that is right totally opposite yeah of the christian faith and philosophy

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_08]: and would be hard to reconcile if you're still in and wondering what happened to the leader if

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_08]: it like what did she do wrong maybe she led people i mean that's how i would interpret it

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you know i see what you're going with that no so again i would say look at the fruit because

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: for someone in remnant that has been told to examine the fruit and stay in the word of god i

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: would say get in the word of god and and read what god says about people that are leading his

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: sheep astray he's not happy with that there's definitely a path of suffering that is from

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to do the right thing and being persecuted for it but there's another path of suffering that's

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: self-induced because you're going the wrong way so you have to think on your own you have to

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: really have this relationship with the lord that i don't know if they're being taught that

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know that's what's so wrong about all of this and what gives churches in general a bad

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: reputation sure so i would just say you know i'm praying for all of them i'm there to help

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: anybody that wants to talk and encourage them to just get into the word like she has always said

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and examine for yourself the fruit because god does not deal with people that mislead his

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: children he does not deal well with them and the fruit meaning like look at the evidence is that

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: another way of saying it listen to the stories from all the people i mean yeah how can so many people

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: tell the same story be lying right it's amazing it's amazing the gymnastics people have to go

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: through when they hear the same story from like multiple and multiple decades oh my god i just

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_08]: made a correlation because when we were in nexium they would always say get the data get the

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_08]: information get the data and then now that we've left and the people who stayed won't get the data

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_08]: they won't talk to us because they're shunning us right because we're liars and we're you know

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_08]: we're just doing it for the attention right blah blah blah because this is this is what that was

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_08]: our goal oh yeah you know what i mean like so now it's the same directive in both groups

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_08]: that was now i mean that's what we did we got the data and we're like that's

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_08]: and we don't want to be a part of this anymore you looked at the fruit it was rotten you got out so

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that's exactly what i did looked at the data i mean and it speaks for itself and if you will

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: think on your own that's the key if you will think on your own and not let some other person

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: persuade you either way this has got to be you looking at yourself and making those decisions

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and then sifting through all that the fear tactics keep you from doing it but i just encourage people

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to just you know don't dismiss the data like you said i mean it's just stacking up that's really good

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_08]: advice thank you so much jina it yeah this has been really enlightening emotional as as per usual

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah thanks for sharing oh you're so welcome thank you for letting me share from my heart

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and share my faith and i just hope and pray that people will hear this and they will have encouragement

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and they will have these things in their mind of what to be looking for i'm going to spend the

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: rest of my life as you are i'm sure as well you know always like being very skeptical from here on out

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_08]: sure i think that's what's most astounding about your story is that you laughed and

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_08]: you still have faith you know so many people we've spoken to laughed and you know became

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_08]: atheist or you know very skeptical or very harsh with the world and i think what the

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_08]: distinction is that i'm hearing is that you have faith but it's it's loving and there's no fear

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_08]: and you have critical thinking so you're thinking for yourself but you're connected to this higher

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_08]: power in a beautiful loving way and without all the punishment and fear that comes with these

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_08]: high demand groups and who can say no to that sounds great wow thank you for saying that yay

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you this has been so wonderful thank you all so much imagine yourself walking into a forest

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_08]: you can see the path and the trees high above you the air is crisp you are walking towards your

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_08]: happy place allegedly allegedly say it with me anything said here on this podcast about

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_08]: alleged cults alleged mlem schemes alleged douchebaggery mindfuckery criminality spiritual fraud or the

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_08]: like is offered purely as commentary because the views and opinions expressed on a little bit culty

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_08]: do not necessarily reflect on official policy or position of the podcast and any content provided

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_08]: by our guests bloggers sponsors or authors are their opinion and are not intended to malign

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_08]: any religion group club organization business individual anyone or anything so just let these

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_08]: words drift into your mind without needing to focus on any of them you are great you are capable

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_08]: you deserve to be happy nobody's mad at you unless you're actually a narcissistic

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_08]: culty criminal if that's you cut that shit out don't be a fuckwad but if that's not you

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_08]: again you are great you are capable you deserve to be happy a little bit culty loves you

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_08]: i loved our conversation with jena and i loved the last two episodes didn't you nip i did

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and i think that last two episodes do a good job of addressing the conundrum of the teachings

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's being diplomatic and the karmic aspects and spiritual aspects of it definitely

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: give yourself an educational experience and watch that mm-hmm i'm curious to know how the

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_08]: church survives in ashville and if it's able to survive this type of media yeah so check it out

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_08]: we'll see let us know what you think and one thing i definitely noticed through the whole time

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_08]: watching gwynn chabell and is that she had a lot of word salad mm-hmm got something to share babe

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: whether you take a donut hole as blank space or as an entity into itself

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: is a purely metaphysical question and does not affect the taste of the donut one bit what

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_07]: donuts don't change sarah that reminds me do you remember what they said about donuts and nexium

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_08]: don't eat them no if you were like when you're getting an em or you're doing like the process

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_08]: rational inquiry if you got confused they call that being in your donut well that's right

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_08]: they'd be like oh nippy's in his donut like he was could you be like what is love i don't

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_08]: know love is a feeling but what is love what do you mean love and be like uh and your brain would

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_08]: turn too much and you kind of you'd be in like a i don't know you'd be like nowhere it's a limbo

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_08]: purgatory deep consciousness bullshit they called that the donut why do they call it the donut

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: okay you're running around and around in your logic oh yes it's around around the

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_08]: circle of the logic where doesn't make sense and on that note thanks everybody

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_07]: i hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as we did thank you see you next week bye

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: let's keep the conversation going we'll be back soon with more episodes of a little bit

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: culty with more experts and survivors and sometimes experts who are survivors as well as some familiar

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: faces from the vow from hbo if you've got suggestions or questions on upcoming topics find us on

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_08]: instagram at a little bit culty and for more background on what brought me here my memoir

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_08]: scarred the true story of how i escaped nexium the cult that bound my life is available on amazon

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_08]: audible and where most books are sold if you like to help us spread the word about a little

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[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: keep this podcast going just don't be a little bit culty about it a little bit culty is executive

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[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_08]: just tardy produced edited mixed and mastered by citizens of sound our amazing theme song cultivated

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_08]: is by john bryant and co-written by nigel assilin i'm sarah edmondson and thanks for listening to

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_08]: a little bit culty