TwinRay: ‘We Are the Resurrection’

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group,

[00:00:12] club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. Oops. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:17] Welcome back everyone to another episode of A Little Bit Culty. Okay, Sarah, here we go. Do you remember the Twin Flames group? That was a focus of a big streaming documentary. Yeah. Is that the one where everyone was stoned and worshipped Robin Williams and whose leader

[00:01:33] turned blue from consuming colloidal silver? No, that's Love is One. That's the subject of a Max documentary of the same name. Oh, I know this one. This is the shady church that recruits people to dance on TikTok and be their management company.

[00:01:46] No, that's another docuseries, Dancing with the Devil. Oh no, this is the evil mirror version of Narcotics Anonymous with forced labor and multi-level marketing. No, that's Synanon, the subject of another new HBO documentary. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. There's just a lot of documentaries out there right now.

[00:02:00] It's a little oversaturated. But it is impossible to forget the Twin Flames universe, the fringe group run by the couple who preach a sort of grab bag of metaphysical beliefs and sell their followers on the idea

[00:02:11] that their beloved gym crush is their predestined soulmate and can be theirs if they just hawk over more money for more and more and more seven hour webinars that start with things like this is going to be a juicy one.

[00:02:23] And that group was the subject of two documentaries last year actually, one on Amazon Prime and one on Netflix. Imagine your gym crush being your Twin Flame. I could see that happening with you, babe. Well, anyway, well the group we're talking about today also believes in Twin Flames

[00:02:38] and has bombastic cosmological beliefs that are all over the map and they are also living large on followers cash. They're living large on followers cash? Large. Tell me more. Large cash. Huge. They're living on it. Okay.

[00:02:54] They're called Twin Ray and they are led by a married couple, kind of like our podcast, who wear white robes and hold hour long Zoom sessions with followers. One of them is a former actress who says she is a goddess reincarnated and can heal the

[00:03:05] world literally with invisible energy technology. There it is with that invisible technology. The other, like Jeffrey Ann of the Twin Flames universe says he is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. So many people think they're Jesus. It's like an endemic. It's not original. So listen to this.

[00:03:22] These two say when they met in 2017, a portal opened and 144 million Twin Flame pairings came into the universe. Well, look, we should start one and say that a portal closed and took 144 million with them. I wonder who they're going to believe.

[00:03:36] But look, this kind of stuff is out there and anyone who's listened to this podcast knows that these ideas do hook people and many of them are ordinary, well-educated folks because it doesn't start with all that. It starts with simple, less contestable things.

[00:03:48] And we're going to hear about that. Like our guest on this episode, she says that over four years, she spent $80,000 on teachings from the Twin Ray group, went to their retreats and watched them move up into an 11,000 square foot mansion in Oregon. Oregon, there you are again.

[00:04:02] And get this, the job she had before she joined was keeping watch over companies for bad financial behavior. Oh, wow. Well, let's hear what she has to say. Welcome Demetria to A Little Bit Culty. Demetria, welcome officially to A Little Bit Culty. Wow. Thank you for having me.

[00:04:31] This is a big deal. You're speaking out for the first time on a, I mean, you've been interviewed for different press, but it's the first time being on a podcast. So we have the exclusive. Tell us a bit about you. I know that you'd been through a divorce.

[00:04:43] You'd left a job with the federal government. What was going on for you when you heard about Twin Ray? Yeah, I was definitely what you would call a seeker, a spiritual seeker. I actually read Eckhart Tolle's book in 2008. And that just completely changed my life.

[00:05:01] It changed how I saw the world, how I saw myself. And so that started the whole process. Which book? It was actually A New Earth that was the one that really changed everything.

[00:05:14] So I read that and because prior to that, I really didn't know myself as, that's going to sound weird, but as like a conscious being. It was more just the identity in my mind, cascading thoughts of who I was.

[00:05:32] So that really kind of broke open this space of like, oh wow, I really am a spiritual, like I'm a spirit having a human experience. That was the big turning point of your spiritual journey? Yes. Okay.

[00:05:46] And for those people who don't know Eckhart's work, and it's funny that you bring this up because we're, I don't know if you know this, we're writing our second book looking at our journey since starting the podcast and everything we've learned.

[00:05:56] And in that, I'm also going back to this point in time where I'm asking you for us about like what was my spiritual thing? And one of it was Celestine Prophecy and The Artist's Way.

[00:06:04] And I was looking at those books and like what the nuggets were that kind of set me up for being open to this new other thing. But do you remember what the tenet was of The New Earth?

[00:06:16] Like what the main sort of nugget that that book tries to teach that you could share with our listeners if they haven't read it? Yeah, that's so fascinating. I also read those books, The Artist's Way and Celestine Prophecy. I really enjoyed them. Look where those books got you.

[00:06:29] Look where we are now. No, but I don't blame that though. No, no, no, no, of course not. Yeah, I mean like the tenet was just basically like, wow, I'm not who I thought I was.

[00:06:40] And then there is a big part of the teaching, and this is important, it's about surrender. So surrendering to what is, surrendering to whatever happens, kind of being okay with whatever arises. And that's where kind of along the path it gets a little tricky because surrendering doesn't

[00:07:00] mean, and he didn't mean it to say that way, but surrendering does not mean surrendering to someone else's agenda. No. Yeah. Later that became used, but it's like the good part of it is surrendering to the what is, being in the now, not being egoic about it. Exactly.

[00:07:19] And surrendering to who you are, and that doesn't change. But there is an additional process that a person has to go through. That's not enough. You can't just read the book. Yeah. Yeah, we can't just read the book.

[00:07:32] We are very complex human beings with very complex nervous systems. We go through intense emotional experiences, and we need to connect with other people. We need to use language. We need to set boundaries.

[00:07:47] And I don't think that was, when I started on the spiritual path, that was something I had to really work through. You're kind of abandoning your own structure to go on the journey in the first place, right?

[00:07:58] So what initially got you there, you're recognizing not working, maybe I should be a little bit more open, and then you have to redefine how open, what the new boundaries are. And sometimes you can make a mistake. That's actually exactly right.

[00:08:12] Because you are, you're abandoning the structure that you've known. That's gotten you there. Yeah. Yeah. Because to open up to something new, how else does someone's life change if they're not creative or open to new ideas or new possibilities?

[00:08:28] So it's this constant balancing of that wildness, the wild creativity, and then the structure that grounds us into this reality. So just from my own self-reflection, I'll share this nugget with you. I think about the Celestine prophecy, which is all about when you meet somebody, they're

[00:08:45] there to teach you something and there's a meaning behind it. Nothing's coincidence, right? That we're all part of this path to transcend ourselves, right? So there's that sort of magic of encounter, right? Which I think sets us up later. I absolutely agree. Yes, it's the magical.

[00:09:03] It's like, oh, everything's so magical. It's in that place of wonder, which we really don't want to give that up. No, I still don't. I still don't want to. There's merit to that. Yeah. Coming from a guy, before our experience, I was like, that world doesn't exist.

[00:09:18] If it's not in physics and I can't quantify and measure it, that's where I make my decisions. Hotjob.com. But my point is there's other things that are informing your decisions, maybe, and just

[00:09:28] rejecting them and not exploring them to see if they do only makes you wiser, right? So at a certain point when you have an experience of it, you can kind of go, there's a karmic

[00:09:38] thing going on that I don't think I was sensitive to beforehand, and now I am. And that's the wisdom, I think, that I've gotten from it. There's more out there. It's just outside physics to help you make good decisions. Yeah. But that's a weird world.

[00:09:52] You don't learn that in school. Exactly. That's the thing. You don't learn it in school. And so you do have to kind of be... It's a little bit of a wild journey. It's untamed because it doesn't have those parameters.

[00:10:08] People are going to prey on you in that world. Exactly. Right. That's the spiritual thing. And then also, I'm sure you've heard the term because you listen to the podcast, the situational vulnerability. In other words, you've just come through this divorce. You lost your job.

[00:10:21] How do you hear about Twin Ray? Okay. So yeah. So I'm on this spiritual path. And I had read a lot of books. I was really into the... I don't know. I was really drawn to the Indian gurus like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta and Krishnamurti

[00:10:39] and studying all the different traditions and just trying to find the common threads. And then I also started getting into alternative healing, learning about like theta healing because I had a lot of health issues growing up.

[00:10:52] I was in and out of the hospital and doctor's offices with asthma, allergies, migraines. And I did start to get healing on this journey. So I started listening to these summits. And these summits would have a variety of spiritual teachers and healers.

[00:11:10] And at a certain point, the guy, his name's Akasha Sananda at the time, that was his name, he was being interviewed on one of these summits. And so keep in mind, I'm gathering lots of information from all these different sources and I'm listening to all these different people.

[00:11:30] And he comes on and, oh, here's... Okay, here's the thing that I realized what set it up is a lot of the books that I read in certain traditions, they always say you need a teacher, which I don't agree with that anymore.

[00:11:45] But on the spiritual path, they say you need a teacher. So I was looking for a guru. I was looking for some enlightened being that I had read about. Like Ram Dass, who wrote his book about Maharaji. So I'm looking for it. So there he is.

[00:12:03] And in his bio, he said that he achieved spiritual liberation, that he was a liberated being. So that's the first thing. As he's talking, he's a smart guy. So he has this really pretty sharp ability to synthesize many different teachings.

[00:12:26] Everything I had learned, he took it, he synthesized it, and he communicated it in a really succinct way that clicked. And not only that, it wasn't even what he said, it wasn't even the bio. It was also how I felt when I was listening to him.

[00:12:43] It was so... What was that? It was just so calm. It was something very hypnotic about how he talked. My nervous system calmed down. Everything seemed to calm down when I listened to him. So he really stood out. I was hooked. I can totally imagine that.

[00:13:02] And it actually brought back some memories of the first couple encounters I had with Naxiom, where I was like, yeah, it's almost like an electric feeling when something is said in a way that feels right. But most of that did feel really right.

[00:13:14] And then there was other things that didn't, but because everything else felt so good, I'm like, well, I must not understand that yet. Did that happen to you too? 100%. Once he hooked me in, it was almost like an octopus.

[00:13:26] I had the image of the octopus, extended the tentacles and just pulled me in. That was it. It was like nothing he could do was wrong. Even though the red flags were coming up. And then he was alone when I first heard him talk.

[00:13:41] And then I think it was five months later, he met the woman who was named... They changed their names many times, but at the time she was Lady Nada. 2017. So his real name is Harley Forster. That's his real name. Yes. First name. Okay. Akasha Sananda.

[00:14:01] And he's Australian, right? Yes. And then her name is Mia Therese Dushle. Oh, Dushle. That's unfortunate. I think it's Dushle or Dushel. Yeah. Okay. And she goes by Shakenama. Dushle. That's what... Dushle. That's what my notes say, but I don't know. That's what the breakdown...

[00:14:19] I actually don't know. It doesn't really matter because she's going by Shakena. Which I had to look up because, I don't know if you've been following the 7M, the TikTok cult Dance of the Devil on Netflix. Did you watch that? No. Check that out.

[00:14:36] But their church that they go to is also called Shakena. So I looked it up and it's in Jewish and Christian theology. The glory of the divine presence conventionally represented as light or interpreted symbolically in the Kabbalah as a divine feminine aspect.

[00:14:50] The churches and the people we're looking at right now have the same name that they've... I think they kind of co-opt to bring about a certain feeling that people put a bunch of trust in or resonate in or whatever. It's my theory. It's a good one. Yeah.

[00:15:04] There's grand beings. The Shakena is the divine feminine, and she also would refer to herself as divine mother. Right. Yes. You might as well just call yourself Jesus or God or wait for it. She developed a British accent along the way too. I love that. Yeah.

[00:15:20] So she got a British accent when and how did that happen? That was in 2019. And according to her, she was going through a big change and her voice, because she's liberated and her genetics are being liberated, that she was going through this mutation. And so her voice changed.

[00:15:38] And this was after being on a flight and developing meningitis? Is that... No, this was after that. That's how it started. Yeah. That's how it started. Okay. And that was now like two years later. Was her accent good? Was it believable? No.

[00:15:52] Demetra is shaking her head since you can't see her. Well, let me clarify one thing. So the meningitis thing, that happened in 2010. And this is important because they claimed, the creation story was that she basically

[00:16:09] had a death initiation where it was six days, six nights, and she was resurrected at age 33 on 10, 10, 10. That was their story and it was repeated over and over again. I want to know more about the story, but quick thought. Do you think they believed it?

[00:16:27] Did they buy their own thing or is this something that they... You don't know. At a certain point, I believe that they did believe it. But when I saw the deposition, there's just no way. There's no way that they didn't know that that was such a misrepresentation.

[00:16:45] There were a lot of things that were conflicting her story, like medical records. So it was like these people sit in the face of their lives being shown right to them. Something happens to them.

[00:16:54] This is my take because they're not them anymore somehow, like who they were previously. They go into this narrative and in spite of anything, they lie right in the face of it. And I think something mutates in them, it feels like.

[00:17:07] I have to just tell you, admit to you, because I've had a friend who was actually in NXIVM with us who at one point had this spiritual thing and changed her name and said that she wasn't this person anymore. She was now an oracle.

[00:17:20] She went by that name and it happened like that. We were talking to her one week and then the next. She had a completely different personality. And she spoke of her former person that she was as another person that used to be in her body.

[00:17:33] And I really, even to this day, most of me thinks that's just crazy and bullshit. And then the other part of me is like, but what if that's possible? And I don't know. Yeah.

[00:17:43] Like it's possible that an oracle, like a new spirit could be in her body and that was the arrangement their souls had from the beginning. I don't know. And just go around saying it. That's where I just kind of like those are- What was your thought?

[00:17:52] Like, is that possible? Okay. I actually know somebody who was what you would call a walk-in soul. Okay. So a walk-in is like- That's what she said she was. Yeah. She said she was a walk-in. And it has happened with people who have near death experiences.

[00:18:07] There has been where there will be like a soul exchange and a new soul comes into the body. And I do know this person, this other person is completely different how she's handled it. She says, I mean, it took her 30 years to integrate into her body.

[00:18:28] And she never claimed any kind of superior deified kind of powers or identity. I mean, yes, people change their name. I'm actually thinking of changing my name to be honest. We have that choice.

[00:18:44] There is a changing of the name and there's a changing of the soul, which I just don't like, I want to believe that's possible actually. I'm skeptical, but I also believe I'm open. In our scenario, there was no incentive for this person to go do that. Right.

[00:18:57] This person was seemingly doing well in life. I thought attractive, didn't have problems, any traditional problems that she was doing It wasn't like, hey, I just need to go do this for, it was a drastic bam. And it was like, what?

[00:19:13] She expects us to accept this new and she doubled down. And I don't say it like judgingly, I'm just saying like it was pretty drastic. And that was a big digression. Let's go back to you. Okay. So here's what I got.

[00:19:26] So I couldn't really hone in on what their beliefs were. This is what I have. Tell me if this is accurate. They say they are a single being called the Twin Ray. They are the reincarnations of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene.

[00:19:36] They say their followers are ascending into space beings and are joined spiritually with a twin flame. And they say they can do remote surgeries, upgrade DNA, interact with metaphysical energy grids. Do they have a consistent worldview or do you get the sense that they're making it up as

[00:19:50] they go along? And what was your experience of all those beliefs? And was that even accurate? Yeah. I mean, some of it's accurate. I would say the part about they did say often that they're one being in two bodies. They would say that quite a bit.

[00:20:03] And that they operate as one. And they made a distinction between twin flames and twin rays. Oh, interesting. They claimed that they're the only twin ray on the planet. What is a twin ray? There's lots of twin flames, they say.

[00:20:21] And the twin flames are two people that just kind of dance around each other. And this was like disturbing to me, but like with twin flames, they might be advocates. They might be advocates for social justice, but that that's duality. That's polarity. That's a lower evolution.

[00:20:38] But a twin ray, they don't have any duality. It's just two pillars of light. So they're basically claiming that they're non-dual, if that makes sense. Like non-dual in other words. She would say if anybody goes into duality, run, which is duality. What does duality look like?

[00:20:59] She's basically saying if there's any kind of like us, is there any kind of like, if you talk about the dark or you talk about like light and dark. Oh, like light and dark as duality. Yeah, that's duality. They don't acknowledge that there's anything negative.

[00:21:13] They don't acknowledge that there's the dark, you know, it's all love and light, which has played out completely the opposite. Right. Was that a red flag for you? Because that seems inconsistent to so much other spiritual teachings.

[00:21:26] Well, it's a huge red flag because the thing is, is as soon as you start talking, you're in duality. Language is dualistic. Yes. And also anytime you have a concern that's easily brushed off as, oh, you're in your duality, right? Got it. Yeah. You're in duality.

[00:21:46] You're in the ego. You know, they had all kinds of thought terminating ways of keeping people silent. They had this loaded language. They would say, get in your 12 o'clock. And it would kind of be militant sometimes, you know, get in your 12 o'clock. What does that mean? Be present.

[00:22:01] Be present. We're all sitting up straight for those people who can't see us. We're like, oh, 12 o'clock. I'm like alert and ready. I'm ready. What am I in 12 o'clock for? I kind of like that. I kind of like getting to 12 o'clock.

[00:22:10] In NXIVM we called it, you have to be ready in SOP. But what were you in 12 o'clock for? What was happening? Well, it's just a way of being present. But honestly, what it turned out to was like, if you have any concerns about anything that

[00:22:23] we do, just get in your 12 o'clock, be quiet and don't question our authority. Right. Yeah. That sounds familiar. This podcast certainly would not be happening without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons. Are you with us?

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[00:23:02] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we? What kind of drugs were they on? Yeah. So about that. Well, I mean, they must be using them if they're administering them, right? Yes, they were definitely using. I wonder how that informs what they're teaching. Yeah.

[00:23:19] So what was really interesting is that they would promote it as this sacred elixir. This like ancient, sacred elixir that only the most spiritual adepts have access to. And it's so pure, so pure that any experience that you would have taking it, it's just your own karma.

[00:23:43] It's just your own issues because they had it tested in a lab and they could not find any ingredients other than the apple cider vinegar. And the experience is one of taking DMT, a psychoactive, it's hallucinogenic. It's like a plant medicine experience.

[00:24:05] But they would say if you had a hard time, which most people did, it's your issue, it's your karma. That's illegal for one. And super dangerous. Yeah. I'm just like, I'm trying to get the picture of this just to back up for a second. What's the setup?

[00:24:22] Are you taking classes? Are you living in a house? What was the evolution of you finding this guy on a seminar and then getting involved? What was the day to day? Yeah, we skipped several steps. That was my fault. I got excited.

[00:24:32] Yeah, it's like how do we go from listening to a podcast and now we're in a room taking DMT? Okay. So, you know, I'm listening to them. I'm following them. They announced their union about four months after I first found them.

[00:24:49] And they claimed that they had been married in a past life. And they just immediately started launching all of their programs. And I saw them. I had some red flags with her, but I put them aside because, again, I was already hooked in. So I put them aside.

[00:25:07] You found your path to enlightenment. Why wouldn't you, you know? Yeah. You're on board. Yeah, I get it. You just, you have to surrender and you keep going. So they offered a program within a month after they met.

[00:25:20] They offered a mentorship and they called the mentorship an ascendantship. And I signed up for it. And I was probably one of their first, I had to be one of their first ascendants because it was like I was working with them like a month after they met.

[00:25:34] I was like a guinea pig when I looked back. What was the pitch? Oh, it was everything. It was everything I've ever wanted my entire life. These are the messiahs I've been looking for my whole life.

[00:25:47] And I grew up in the Midwest where it's very, all the pictures of Jesus are like this white guy with long hair and he kind of had that look. And he kept making parallels between his life and Jesus' life because Jesus also studied

[00:26:06] with an immortal yogi and he studied with an immortal yogi. The thing too is he didn't outright say, I'm Jesus. Right. But might as well have. Yeah. But he would just make the, you know, the parallel. You know, some people say I'm just like Jesus. I don't know.

[00:26:23] I'm just, I'm so humble. I won't say this. The humble bragging. Yeah. Gross. And so at this point where you then, what did that look like? You're all living together or you're just visiting a center? No, yeah. No, no living together. This is all online.

[00:26:35] It's all on Zoom. But the first big, huge red flag in my face was right after I met with them. And the first thing she said was, they asked like, how much are you willing to pay for this nine month basically mentorship? It's like 12 sessions for nine months.

[00:26:57] So they didn't have a price. They wanted to know how much you were willing to pay? Yes. That's what they first asked. But then right away she says, how about 33,000? I was like, I didn't have that kind of money available.

[00:27:10] And they were like, well, we want you to feel good about it. So take a couple days to think about it. They said, but it just, it has to be angel numbers. Which are? 333-444. 000? Is that acceptable? Well, 222 is an angel number, right? Yes. You got it.

[00:27:25] That's my lucky number. And I just always know that I actually had an angel number. I didn't know that's what it was. So yay for me. So what was your counter? So my counter was, well, okay, it's angel numbers. So how about 13,333?

[00:27:46] You low balled her, you low balled her at a third of the price. No, but here's, this is where they, so they're like, well, we're compelled. However, it needs to be deposited in our bank account in Estonia and paid in euros. And they were living in San Diego.

[00:28:08] That's a red flag. That's a red flag. How do they justify that? Why did they, did they give you a justification or you were just too, you were just like on board and it said- Well, I didn't have that kind of cash to deposit in their account.

[00:28:19] So I told them I have to pay, you know, I'm going to have to pay you with a credit card through PayPal. That's the only way, you know, so of course then I had to pay the PayPal fee. They thought it was better than nothing, right?

[00:28:33] Or I'm assuming. Yeah, well, with when paying in euros raised the price to like 17,000. So right. Oh, I'm so sorry. That's a lot. They charge you in euros. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't so much the money, like that wasn't the biggest issue for me.

[00:28:48] It's just the fact like I didn't understand why I had to pay in euros when they live in San Diego. Okay, wait. So these are classes that you've just paid 17,000 for. What was happening in these classes? And I've always wondered how people can do spiritual stuff over Zoom.

[00:29:03] Like what did that feel like or what were they doing with you? Yeah, so sorry. Those are actually private sessions. Oh, private sessions, but on Zoom? On Zoom. You're meditating, you're, what's the vibe? Yeah, so the private sessions are like, you know, they're coaching, they basically ended

[00:29:20] up being coaching sessions. But, you know, the promise was like liberation. Like you're going to be liberated, you're going to be in this like bliss state and you're going to be in our field.

[00:29:32] And it just made it sound like, wow, this is going to be really ascended and you'll have abundance and, you know, be ready to meet your twin flame. And I mean, it was just like a promise of everything, you know?

[00:29:47] The first thing they did was put me on this strict diet. And I don't know if you read that part, but it was a strict diet of just eating fruits. And so I was eating only watermelon and grapes for like six months and charcoal pudding. Oh no.

[00:30:05] It could have been longer because he said eventually you're going to release your attachment to food. He thought I was just going to not need food at a certain point. So after six months, I got really hungry, you know? Like I got really hungry. That checks out.

[00:30:20] And I was hungry. Yeah. And I was just like, I think the big moment too, this is another big moment where I was like, you know, I'm getting kind of hungry. Is there something else I could eat?

[00:30:36] And I just remember his face, like cold, like just cold, dead stare. You know, I've heard Rick Ross talk about the NXIVM, that guy, I don't even want to say his name. Voldemort? You know who I refer it to? Yeah.

[00:30:53] How like his face, like it just cold, you know, it's that same face. It was just like nothing there. Dead eyes. No compassion, no empathy. And he just looked at me and was just like, you could eat pasta.

[00:31:07] You're like this whole time I could have been eating pasta. That would have been so much better. What a dink. I'm sorry. Yeah, you can have some avocado toast, I guess. Okay, whatever. Do what you want. Fuck, fuck. I'm just pissed on your behalf. Deprived.

[00:31:22] Okay, so you started eating pasta and then you had some carbohydrates in your body and then did your brain click in or what happened? I ate a little bit more, but then, well to answer, I want to go back to your question

[00:31:32] because you're like, how did you get to the elixirs? So one of the promises, he said your graduation present when I first paid for the mentorship, he said your graduation present will be the elixir, you know, the sacred elixir.

[00:31:48] Of course, when it came down to do it, I had to pay for it. We had to pay $1,100, you know, for the one night that we did it in their home in San Diego. That's where the elixirs come in. Okay.

[00:32:01] In this time, so Shekinah and Sananda, they moved on up. There were more people. They started signing up online. The couple moved from a temple in La Jolla, California to an 11,000 square foot mansion in Ashland that some wealthy followers helped them purchase for 2.6 million. Is that accurate?

[00:32:16] I believe that is accurate. Yeah. I don't know if they paid 2.6 million. I feel like they paid less than that. But it was in that range. Yeah. Okay. And their lifestyle there now was in-person retreats, selling water for $100, necklaces

[00:32:31] for $300, online classes cost thousands, prominent family members and high paying professionals are now involved. Did they tailor their activities to reach a wealthy clientele, do you think? I think they definitely knew. They knew how to pull people in that had resources, for sure.

[00:32:47] Didn't she come from a family that may have been a little bit connected? Am I making that up? Yeah. It appears that her family was relatively well off. Yeah. I wonder how many people that she enrolled you have access to, I'm guessing. Like the Bronfmans did with us.

[00:33:01] It seemed like they just had high profile connections to bring in. Yeah. It was actually quite impressive. I mean, there was a lot of really, really highly educated people at the retreats, like people from a lot of wealthy backgrounds. I mean, they are smart.

[00:33:17] He's able to pull a lot of information and then he puts it together with science. So for someone who's highly educated, it really hooks into what they already know and he puts it together. And so it lights things up for people.

[00:33:32] And are these retreats them speaking and people listening and some exercises or what do the retreats consist of? The retreats are the elixir. Well, supposedly they haven't, they stopped doing the elixir, they say in the last couple years. But when I was there, the retreats were mainly elixirs.

[00:33:50] Every other night, it was an elixir during the nighttime. And then the day after, they would have what they call satsang or sharing circle, which would be all day long, everyone sharing. And mostly it was everyone was basically telling them how wonderful they were and praising

[00:34:07] them and they seemed to really, really like the praise. I mean, it sounds like it's an elixir retreat and it's bare bones. I think they know that's their product, right? And everything's built around that. Were they telling people it was DMT?

[00:34:21] Like what do people think they were taking? I'd never heard the word DMT the whole time I was there. I didn't know what that was. I didn't find out that it was DMT until after I left and someone told me that, you know,

[00:34:33] where he got the formula and that the person who knew what the formula was said it was DMT. I didn't know what that was. I had never done drugs. For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir.

[00:34:50] It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. If you want to see that story in streaming form, watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO. You've heard from our sponsors.

[00:35:09] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we? So you went from no drugs to doing an unknown elixir. What was your elixir experience like? Let's get into it. Because you can't compare it to ecstasy or smoking weed because you don't know. Yeah, I have nothing.

[00:35:26] Exactly. I had no reference. That's really fucked up they did that though. Yeah. That was one of the worst experiences, the very first one. DMT is highly intense. Yeah. Well, do you know what DMT is? I mean, I have a superficial understanding of it.

[00:35:39] How would you explain it? Well, I know what it is now. You know what it does. Yeah. Yeah. It's called an entheogenic drug, which entheo in Greek means in God. So that's why they would say you're drinking God.

[00:35:56] It's designed to kind of open up different dimensions, different, you have visions of different things. Is it extremely intense for a short amount of time or is it a long drawn out?

[00:36:08] I mean, for me, it would start around 10 at night and then it would just keep going until the morning. So for me, it'd be six hours of super intense, scary visions, really intense on my body, wanting to purge. A little bit like ayahuasca, it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:30] I think people who had taken it, yeah. Sort of a similar? But they would always say this is nothing like ayahuasca. You know, this is so much more pure. I would be seriously pissed if that happened to me. Yeah.

[00:36:42] I mean, the hardest thing is what happened to my friend. I think that's the part that I just want to give a tribute to her because she's the one who's referred to as Patricia in one of the articles.

[00:36:53] And she was my friend and she went to all the retreats like I did and, you know, she gave him, I think it says in the article how much money she gave them and she actually gave them much more than what's stated on there.

[00:37:06] So she was very supportive of them, very supportive of the community, open hearted, accepting of people that are different than her, generous, energetic. I just want people to know like, you know, she's described as an older woman, but she

[00:37:21] was a youthful and, you know, like positive, healthy, fit. And we were at a retreat in Hawaii together in 2019 and they sold us these gold pills. They were like these little clay balls, 30 gold pills, and they sold them for like $111.

[00:37:41] They expressly stated, and there's witnesses that if you took those gold pills and all of us took them, it was like 20 of us, like everyone took them, you cannot get cancer. When she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, they blamed it on the fact that she spent too

[00:37:58] much time with her granddaughter. Oh my God. And that she went on a retreat with someone else. They acted like they healed her at a certain point. They said, we'll help you.

[00:38:13] And she messaged them, like the cancer came back, like it went down for a little bit or something, and then the cancer came back worse than ever. She messaged them, said it's worse than it was before. Can I get some help? They disappeared. Two months later, she passed.

[00:38:31] And two weeks after she passed, they had their retreat. Like nothing happened. And I just feel like she deserves better than that. Her family deserves better than that. She deserved better than that after how much she gave to that community. Thank you for sharing that. Yes.

[00:38:48] Let's dedicate this to her. Yeah, it's not her real name that's on there, but it is to her, yes. Oh, that makes me so mad. Was that the final straw for you? Is that what woke you up? Well, that happened actually after I officially left.

[00:39:02] So let's back up then and hear about that. What were some of the red flags? And then what was the final straw? Well, the red flags is the lack of transparency in their financials. So nobody knew where all the money was going. That was totally secretive.

[00:39:18] They kept changing things around. Lots of unfulfilled promises. And I think the biggest thing is that they were the ultimate authority. They kept appropriating information from other places, never giving credit. And what applied to their followers did not apply to them.

[00:39:34] They were exempt from all rules, all laws because they were liberated beings. So those were definitely red flags. I mean, there were many, but this is one story I do want to share. Sure. It was kind of one of the final straws. We were in ceremony.

[00:39:51] And as I just explained, ceremony is extremely vulnerable. You're very vulnerable. You're like, you know, you're kind of like on the verge. At a certain point, the last retreat that I attended was in 2021.

[00:40:07] All of a sudden this like chaotic laughter broke out and the male leader was a part of it. He was amplifying it, but it wasn't human laughter. I'm not talking about, I'm a crazy, like I laugh at inappropriate times. It's not about that.

[00:40:25] It's the fact that like it did not stop and it was like nothing I've ever heard. It was creepy. It was like, didn't sound like human laughter. And they had given us a mantra, you know, like a mantra to just kind of stabilize your system.

[00:40:43] I was chanting it quietly, but they wouldn't stop. The noise would not stop. I was on the verge. I was on the verge of being very dysregulated. So I just, just to save my life and maybe save other people, I started chanting out loud.

[00:41:01] And it stopped, like it stabilized the space and people thanked me afterwards. You know, that's a sacred space. Like I'm glad you did that. So he sent somebody to tell me to be quiet when I started chanting.

[00:41:15] So they didn't silence this chaos, but then they silenced me when I chanted, right? So then that's once, that's the first time. And then I saw them later just to explain, you know, out of respect.

[00:41:28] I was like, oh, I just wanted to let you know why I did that. It's just, I was really becoming destabilized. And he was like, oh yeah, no problem. I understand. And she turned and her eyes were like bulging out.

[00:41:42] And she was just like, you needed to do that silently. I was about to start singing. She said, I was just about to start singing. And she was very upset, very upset. It's the second time I got silenced, okay? She silenced me again.

[00:42:02] When it was time for me to leave, leave the community, schedule the parting call to say goodbye to them. And actually at that point, I just wanted to leave on good terms. I didn't know it was a cult or anything at that point.

[00:42:12] I was just like, you know what? I think, you know, my time, it's time for me to graduate, you know, thank you. And then I let them know, you know, I was a little frustrated when you didn't silence that chaos, but you silenced me twice.

[00:42:27] So you gave them feedback? Yeah, I gave them feedback, but no, it gets better. So then she said it again. She still would not take accountability, would not show compassion and said again, I was just about to start singing. But this time she twisted it again.

[00:42:45] She said, you know, for you, and I'm going to say it in her voice so you can kind of get a feel of what it felt like, you know, to be me. She was like, well, for you, beloved Demetria, you were probably laughed at as a child.

[00:43:00] Oh, of course. This is just your trauma. Right. So me bringing stability into the space was because I was laughed at as a child. Did you tell her to go fuck herself or what did you say when she said that?

[00:43:12] Yeah, at that point I was just like, you know, because he actually, I'll give him some credit. He actually owned up to it. He was like, I understand, you know, okay, I get your point. So I just was like, no, that's really not helpful for me.

[00:43:25] But it was like silencing me three times and then adding a twist of shame at the end of it. Oh, right. A little sprinkle. Not so spiritual. Not so spiritual, Shekina Ma. Wow. Okay, so you left.

[00:43:38] How did you figure out that it, and when did you figure out that it was a cult or that it was high control group or toxic or whatever you want to call it? Yeah, well, part of that same conversation is they didn't like just let me go.

[00:43:50] Oh, of course. I was kind of hoping it would be like, oh, we wish you well, you know, goodbye. But no, instead they kept saying that I still needed a teacher and I, you know, in order

[00:44:02] to use the healing modality that I paid $5,000 for and did all the work that they told me to do, that I needed to make sure I had their logo on my website. And I said I did all that, but it still wasn't good enough.

[00:44:15] They kept saying that they needed to check and they needed to monitor my website. They weren't doing that to anyone else. And so I basically just said, that's okay, I don't need to use it. It's fine. I don't need to use your healing modality.

[00:44:27] And they just kept going in circles for like an hour, wouldn't let go. I think I finally just had to say goodbye and still use the spiritual language, you know, of like, you know, love is always there and, you know, bless it be.

[00:44:38] But they still couldn't say, like he still couldn't say goodbye and that was it. And that's when I realized, okay, yeah, this was not what I signed up for. So yeah. And then how did you decide to speak up? Yeah. So that was in 2021.

[00:44:57] And then just throughout the process, you know, like I was listening to your show. Your show helped me so much because the door was just kind of slammed and the people don't really, you know, the people there don't talk to you if you leave.

[00:45:11] I mean, they're polite, but it's pretty much over, you know? And those were my friends, like that was my community. And so it was like a big part of my life that was just done. Yeah, it took a while, right? So the articles just came out.

[00:45:26] It's been like two and a half years for to finally say something, but it just felt, I don't know. I just felt like this needed to come out because there's such a gross misrepresentation. You know, if you want to act, you can act.

[00:45:41] If you want to do magic tricks, do magic tricks, play games. That's not what the people are paying for, you know? Right. I know that there's reports that they've threatened legal action against ex-members who have spoken out.

[00:45:53] Are you afraid of it or do you feel like there's strength in numbers now that more people are speaking out? You know, this is my experience and it's true. It's 100% true. So I'm really not.

[00:46:05] I mean, ever since the articles went out, many more people have come out of the woodworks and they disappeared. Nobody knows where they are. I don't know if they're in contact, so I'm not sure.

[00:46:16] But nobody really, like, you know, they stopped posting on social media and they never put out like a response to it. You know why I also think you're safe is that you're speaking the truth.

[00:46:29] If they were to come after you, part of that process would be that they would have to open up their financials. They'd have to have full transparency and clearly that's not going to be something that they ever want to do.

[00:46:38] So Shekina and Buddy, if you're listening to this, keep that in mind. If you go after ourselves or our lovely guest here, then you'll be under scrutiny. So just in case you didn't know how that worked. The gig is up or they'll resurface in another country.

[00:46:52] Yeah, sounds like they're on the limb. Maybe they're hanging out with Bentenio Massaro. Do you know who that is? The bento box. I listened to your episode on that. I was like, wow, that's, yeah. They're probably all friends. They're like in Costa Rica somewhere. Teal Swan. Trading elixirs.

[00:47:06] What distinctions can you make now between like what's good, what's healthy? Like, what have you learned? What's your wisdom? What's your takeaway? Discernment is really important on the spiritual path, for sure. I just think the biggest thing, you know, I wouldn't throw out a lot of the, because

[00:47:22] a lot of the energy healing was helpful for me. I have found, you know, being in nature to be really healing. I especially like really wild places like forests and mountains. That's where I find a lot of healing. Nature is non-negotiable. Absolutely. It's a non-negotiable on this. Absolutely.

[00:47:42] You know, I mean, the main thing is like we really don't need, like the idea that you need a teacher on the spiritual path is really just an old ideology. It's anachronistic. It's archaic.

[00:47:54] And there are people that can help you just like any, you know, like a therapist can help you or, but where somebody acts like they have some kind of special divine dispensation that nobody else has, that's, yeah, that's definitely a red flag.

[00:48:10] Demetria, thank you so much for being so brave. A, to use your real name, to speak for so many people that clearly got conned by these two grifters, actors, magical. And good for you for speaking out and having your friends back. Yes, that means a lot.

[00:48:25] This one's for her. And please keep in touch and let us know if we can support in any way. And we wish you the best on your healing journey. Thank you so much. And please keep doing what you're doing. Will do. Thank you.

[00:48:38] Like what you hear, do you? Give us a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes. Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there. Smash that subscribe button. You know you want to. Well, that was part for the course, terrifying and unusual, right?

[00:48:56] Has anyone called Hulu, Netflix, Max, Apple TV? I mean, Paramount. Paramount Plus? But Disney. Definitely not Disney. Peacock still around? Who's going to jump on the cult bandwagon? A lot of the beliefs seem like throwbacks to seventies and eighties cults, stuff like energy healing reincarnation.

[00:49:10] It's always invisible, of course. And the incorporation of space beings and science fiction stuff into religion. It's amazing how social media has helped this stuff out, like spread it to anyone and building like a network of people. Right.

[00:49:22] Cults have always exerted social pressure on their members and cut them off from outsiders. It's just amazing how these tactics have adapted to an online world where conceivably anyone could log off or log on anytime. Well, it's not that simple. It's hard for us to log off Instagram.

[00:49:37] Imagine when you're getting something spiritually or emotionally out of it, right? Please let us know what you think of this episode. See us over on Patreon and hope you are having a fabulous summer. Until next time. Bye! Bye! Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[00:49:49] I'm hanging on to the wind in my love. If I let go of it all, I could leave, but I know I won't. Thanks for listening, everyone. We're heading over to patreon.com slash a littlebitculti now to discuss this episode.

[00:50:12] In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely for general informational, educational and entertainment purposes. It's not intended as a substitute for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice. For cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world,

[00:50:30] check out a littlebitculti.com slash culty resources and don't miss Sarah's TED talk called How Cult Literate Are You? A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer

[00:50:44] Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard Jess Temple-Tardy. And our theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant.