Where Are They Now? Isabella Constantino on Post-NXIVM Healing and Identity (Part 2)

[00:00:00] We always recommend Shopify. It took us from an idea to a real business. We got set up, I think, in less than a day with very little effort. We could just focus on the supply chains and the product development. Shopify gives us the ability to customize without the complexity. We can change something without introducing fragility or having to pay a developer. We're Thirsty Turtle and we leveled up our business with Shopify. Start your free trial at shopify.com.au

[00:00:30] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:58] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. We woke up from a cult. And that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now, in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gotta laugh.

[00:01:26] Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad-free listening, some live Q&A, and exclusive content at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome to Season 8 of A Little Bit Culty. I got sued. Like, I think you knew about that. Did we talk about that at all?

[00:01:56] Didn't we get sued? I don't know. This is separate. Wait, are we allowed to talk about it? I don't know. The lawsuit's over. Yeah. I don't know. Wait, if it's over, I think you can talk about it, can't you? Technically. Did you sign an NDA or anything? I don't know. I actually don't know. Maybe not. Oh, I don't know. It's so weird. I hope they've moved on. I know there's a bunch of Reddit threads about it. I've read those. Well, what can you say? So he sued you for what? He, the scene that we were- It's amazing he sued you.

[00:02:25] Yeah. It's so crazy. It's funny. I didn't even get served. Like, I had no idea what it was until someone called me and they were like, hey, just so you know, like, this is a lawsuit that's happening with all of us. And I was like, I'm glad you told me because I just got a letter. And now that I'm opening it, I have no idea. It was like a random court document. It was like handwritten. And I never even, like, I had no context for it and ended up spending a year dealing with it all.

[00:02:52] So, and it's funny. I won't say much about it, but basically the scene where we were talking on FaceTime, like, was the one that was kind of like the issue, so to speak, within the lawsuit that it was based on.

[00:03:13] But it's funny because with everything that's happened the last 10 plus years of me getting into NXIVM, leaving NXIVM, dealing with the people's bullshit in NXIVM, I think I handled it very well. I think that I process my emotions very well. I think that I've had a lot of compassion for everyone along the way, regardless of, you know, circumstances.

[00:03:41] We were all going through shit. The thing that annoyed me was that I get this letter, this fucking letter in the mail. And I'm like, God damn it. Like, what was the accusation? Like, what were you being seen for?

[00:03:58] It was like, I don't know. He, it was literally just like, he was saying that we shouldn't have posted it without his knowledge, essentially. Like, it was like duplicitous in some way because it was before the date that he signed the release. Well, they'll find a reason. People who are in the, you know, they'll just find a reason or they'll make one.

[00:04:20] And I will say that, yeah, I, I was thinking a lot, like when my first six months I was there, Mark had a birthday party in Brooklyn or New York City, Manhattan at the center there. And I remember taking the bus there, spending the day and then going to the birthday party. And I was already in a really fucked head space at this point. And I remember going and just feeling so hungry for one, but like cold and seeing this.

[00:04:51] I was so stressed, but like, I appreciated the people. I liked the people. I appreciated Mark and everything that he was doing because he meant well. He was trying and you could tell he cared. Even in a lot of the fucked up moments of gaslighting, like he has a good heart or had a good heart. I haven't talked to him in years. Yes, he does.

[00:05:43] I, I, my parents thought I was in denial for a long time. They were frustrated with me because when I didn't leave, they said I was in denial or I didn't want to look at it. Or I don't think, you know, there's no, if you're not in a manipulative or like narcissistic relationship where you're being gaslit every day, you don't necessarily know how to, you don't understand what someone's going through.

[00:06:05] You don't understand how information is being manipulated around them. You know, how information is being, you know, justified or whatever. So when I got out, I was never in denial. I was just being lied to. So when I got that information, I said, Oh, I've got to get out. Like this isn't good.

[00:06:27] And it never, like, I couldn't begin to imagine that someone would have that information and still stay. That was very hard for me to try on. Yeah. So for years when I was seeing all of the things that the loyalists were doing, all of the things they were saying or pushing, you know, sometimes you have a sense of there's like sometimes like a level of ingenuity in people. It was hard for me to tell.

[00:06:55] Like, especially like, like, like you said, like I had a feeling something was off, but I didn't have the information to back it at that, like at the end there. I did. I, it was hard for me to imagine what people are going through or even try on that they would justify something knowing it was bad.

[00:07:10] Like seeing, feeling, like seeing, feeling, knowing it was bad and then turning it around and saying, no, I'm going to stay. So when the people were there doing these things, saying these things back in Keith, showing up at court and, you know, matching outfits, doing whatever it was that they were doing. It was hard for me to say, you know, and you're doing it anyway.

[00:07:34] And I think like, at points, I recognize how hard it is for people. I do. But like when certain things have happened, I think I'm just, I'm compassionate, but I'm frustrated. And I just, I don't know. But when that letter, when I got that letter, and when I realized what Mark was doing, I was just like, fuck.

[00:07:57] Like, like I, I can empathize, but God, that's annoying. Like you're interfering with my life now in a way you don't need to. You're not just trying to defend something. You are actively participating in making my life harder. Because she's one of the only loyalists.

[00:08:11] You've given up your autonomy, your morality to a cause. And whatever the cause stands for, you're now, you've justified. And your morality isn't calling the shots. The morality of the group, loyalty to the group, you know, 1984, it was loyalty to the party or no one else. So it's loyalty to the party. And when you've done that, you've given up your own autonomy.

[00:08:30] Yeah. So because you think you're right, you feel like whatever behaviors are subsequently happening because you're fighting the cause against justice. And that's what Keith tried to get people to do against people that dissented, you know, love versus fear, all that campaign stuff. Remember hashtag love versus fear? And then accumulate information. Then they're trying to accumulate information around us that would make them feel okay about objectifying us and making us bad people. There was a campaign with posts where people doing hashtag love versus fear.

[00:09:00] Oh my gosh, no, I don't remember that. Allison in India, before she got out. Yeah, it was a whole. It's the dangers of ideology. Yeah. Right? But as you're talking about Mark, I was realizing, you know, he was one of the few of the loyalists with, this is a NXIVM term, quote unquote, effort strategies. He was a producer. That's why he was a good salesperson because he had effort. So now he has effort strategies towards suing you, right? Like he's trying to do what he could do.

[00:09:26] And I was thinking about it, like you said, the compassion. I totally have compassion for him as well as him, you know, the frustration. Like when you think about the conversations he was doing with you and gaslighting you and saying things like, you know, haven't you been helped, Isabella? Like why would you let this fear? There were other motivations there.

[00:09:44] Other motivations, well, he's protecting his self-image, right? As somebody who his whole life depends on and his curing of, his whole speaking point, right? But I remember he had a conversation with us when we first got out. And I remember it was the summer because we'd just gotten out. I laid into him. Nippy laid into him. We were doing a photo shoot. So it was June or July. It was in the summer. So six months before you got out. And he was one of the few people who called us. Not many people called us. It was mid-June. It was like mid-June. It was like two or three weeks after.

[00:10:10] Two or three. Got on the phone with that. Wait, but let me finish my thought. He said to me, he was like really upset. And I said, I told him what happened to me. And he said, look, that's really bad.

[00:10:18] If it's true. He's like, there's no way Keith had anything to do with this. This seems like something that got out of control with this women's group. And I said, for sure he has something to do with it, Mark. And he said, if it is, I wish I'd recorded this call. He said, if it is, I am out because that is terrible and that is awful. But it can't be true. And I said, well, the truth will come out. And then also Nippy laid into him and said-

[00:10:41] Look, here's the thing. And here's what you're defending. You're defending the branding of women as a means to teach them character and honor. And regardless of what happens here, I'm the guy who's saying that's not okay. And I'm stopping it.

[00:10:54] Now, whether you prove me wrong or whatever in two or three years, five years or whatever, you're still going to be the guy that history remembers as branding people as a way to teach people how to behave. And it's a means of coercion. So like you can go ahead and roll that dice. And that was just the conversation. You said you're on the wrong side of history. You're on the wrong side of history. Bro. We're not going to be sitting here in five years going, this is a normalized thing and you've normalized it. And here we are. Here we are. Nine years later.

[00:11:24] Yeah. So he and other people like Lucas, for example, like I remember having conversations with Lucas and he was saying, okay, if you can get me on the phone with one woman who's had sex with him, I will leave. And I arranged for one of the ex- Hold my beer. Ex-members of the harem in Vancouver who had left, who would get on the phone with Lucas and say, yes, I had sex with Keith and I was one of his harem members and I had that lined up. And then he would call me back and say, you know what?

[00:12:01] Yep. And being gaslighted by Lauren. Mark was in direct conversation with Keith, right? So if I said to him, you know, this happened and he's like, well, Keith had done it. Then he goes to talk to Keith. Keith, of course, can gaslight Mark into thinking this is a good idea. So like he and this is something else that's also in the book. I'm sure you know this by now. I'll just share it for our audience.

[00:12:22] This is a nugget that I got from Dan Shaw when he was my cult therapist when I first got out where I was so hurt by my friends, my peers throwing me under the bus for the loyalty of the cult, right? Like for choosing Keith or Lauren or Nancy over our friendship.

[00:12:41] And what I didn't understand that I understand now is this horizontal versus vertical hierarchy thing so that anything that's along this horizontal line, friendships, spouses, gets thrown under the bus for the vertical ranking of the hierarchy. Does that make sense? Yeah. Loyalty to the hierarchy as opposed to your friends, family. I'm sure there's a chart that people could look up. Some good visuals. I'm sure there's an on the spectrum chart. Yeah.

[00:13:10] The spectrum of loyalty. Like obviously Nippy and I had a strong relationship when we got out at the same time, but a lot of cults, you know, ruin that. Which we witnessed there. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And people chose the ranking and, you know, Keith over their colleagues or their peers or their lovers. Yeah. I mean, it depends what you were susceptible to. I just remember making a decision. This isn't going to get in the way of my family and friends. Thank God. I'm glad. And you did too.

[00:13:36] Well, if you had been like, this is the company's more important, you and I wouldn't have been. Yeah. We both got what we wanted. We both had ambitions outside the organization. We both pulled the good stuff and we weren't really willing to do like, and this is where I think your youthfulness was a weakness, not a weakness, a susceptibility for you. Certainly. Because you were gotten, right? At that juncture. Very pivotal age. A little 21-year-old pivotal age, right?

[00:14:05] And they may have gotten me had I joined then, but I was 27, 27. I was just coming out of that. Also, they were promising a cure to a lifelong. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. You had a lot of different hooks. Multiple hooks. Yeah. And like, Jesus, like, who wouldn't? Oh, I can't wait to send this to you. I'm so excited. You're going to love this so much. Can I see the cover? Yeah. That looks so good. You see it? Yeah.

[00:14:28] There's a section on hooks and susceptibility and there's a whole section on healing and there's a whole section on navigating life after a cult. And I just, it's just like, so excited to be able to give that to you. Question is, do we send it to our mutual friends? No. No, probably not. Make them buy it. I don't think they'll like it. Somebody out there is going on and giving our book one star who hasn't read it. I'm guessing it's one of the loyalists, but who knows? It would be a one star to them.

[00:15:02] Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion, is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed pre-orders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews and research. Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups and how to avoid, escape or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go-to resource, this is it.

[00:15:32] Available now on Amazon in print and as an e-book for Kindle. And yes, the audio book is coming soon, narrated by us. Just search A Little Bit Culty and grab your copy. Do it. Thanks, everybody. This message is sponsored by Raycon. If you're someone who likes getting outside but still wants moments to really lock in, I've been using Raycon's Everyday Earbuds Classic. And they've been my go-to for daily listening.

[00:16:02] I finally caved and got new earbuds because my old ones were held together by Hope and electrical tape. Very chic. I went with Raycon's Everyday Earbud Classics and honestly, they're kind of perfect. Active noise cancellation that actually works. They stay put when I'm out for walks. And this is key. They don't fall out after every five seconds like I'm in some sort of earbud trust fall exercise. But here's what got me. The colors. I grabbed the blush violet ones because I'm 12 years old at heart. And they actually feel like something I'd choose. Not just here's your standard issue white tech blob.

[00:16:32] The real plot twist? They sound as good as those brands that cost twice as much. Same premium audio, half the price. Over 3 million people agree with me on this, which is oddly validating. Plus, they've got a 30-day happiness guarantee. So if you hate them, you're not stuck explaining to yourself why you wasted money on fancy ear accessories. Honestly, my only regret is not getting them sooner. The Everyday Earbud Classics are the perfect addition to your everyday routine. Go to blu-ray.com slash culty to get 15% off. Thanks, Raycon, for sponsoring.

[00:17:00] So when we first moved to Atlanta, our outdoor space was, let's call it, aspirational. There was some plastic chairs we inherited. There were some things we got from a garage sale. I mean, it was generally an eyesore. And we just didn't use it. And that's why we were so grateful for Wayfair. Wayfair made it so easy to fix that and give us the vibe that we were going for. The delivery was easy. The assembly was easy. We have these beautiful Adirondack chairs around a fire pit that, let's just say, the neighbors covet.

[00:17:31] I think they covet it. You can shop by style, modern, coastal, farmhouse, whatever your vibe is, and actually find pieces that work together without spending hours spiraling and scrolling and looking at reviews. Their filters, reviews, and photos from real people are clutch. It's like having millions of second opinions before you commit. And for somebody like me who has trouble making decisions, this is a game changer. And everything's in one place. Seating, rugs, lighting, storage, even grills. So you're not piecing it together from five different sites like a part-time job.

[00:17:59] Plus, with Wayfair verified, their team vets products with a full quality checklist. So you know you're getting something solid. And if you're not exactly handy like Nippy and I, they've got assembly options too, which saved us from at least one patio meltdown. And we're grateful for that. Basically, less guesswork and more actually using the space now. Come on over. We're having a party. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home.

[00:18:26] That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style. Every home. Lately, I've tried to be more intentional with what I wear. Because as a parent, I have approximately 90 seconds to get dressed before someone needs a snack or a ride or emotional support over something. So I just need clothes that work. No fuss. No outfit spirals. No, does this go with this and whatnot. That's why I keep going back to Quintz. And I'm so excited that they are still our sponsor.

[00:18:53] Everything is effortless, comfortable, and makes it look like I tried. They've got some incredible spring pieces made from 100% European linen, organic cotton, and super soft denim. Think lightweight linen pants, easy dresses, and tops starting around $30. Breathable, wearable, and on repeat. Here's the best part. It all looks way more expensive than it is. Quintz cuts out the middleman and works directly with ethical factories. So you're getting high quality pieces for 50 to 80% less.

[00:19:21] I am lucky enough to go away on a little Mother's Day trip. And I needed to upgrade a few things. And I'm so excited to say that I got some incredible bathing suits. I also got a bunch of basics like an organic cotton micro rib scoop neck tank in Heather Oatmeal. But my biggest obsession is 100% organic cotton gauze smocked sleeveless maxi dress in ocean breeze. So that's like a light blue. So thanks to Quintz, I can look like a semi-functioning adult. Even if my morning has already been chaos.

[00:19:50] Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head over to Quintz.com slash Kulti for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash Kulti for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quintz.com slash Kulti. Sponsor Breaks Den. Back for more Kulti stories. Yeah. It's – and you know what?

[00:20:18] Something that I've tried to be mindful of because I've been very – not recent – well, not that it's come up recently at least, but just recognizing that like pressuring people doesn't do anything. I feel like if there's almost like – I don't know. Something you said to me, Sarah, when we were on the phone like a couple years ago, I think about every now and then. Oh, good. Yeah.

[00:20:44] Well, just with interpersonally, just like thinking about, well, partly my own fears in the situation or my own vested interest, so to speak. And what you said was you made kind of like a commitment to not pressure anyone to do anything. Yeah. Trying to. Trying to. Yeah. But honestly, that's been really helpful for me. Oh, has it?

[00:21:10] It has because I feel like just recalling when I was in Albany, my relationship with my parents briefly got better and then it got significantly worse because there was this hope, there was this success in certain ways, but at the same time, I was going through it and there was anger and there was defensiveness and there was all these ideas being put on me and instilled

[00:21:37] and like ones that didn't quite make sense that I was trying to make sense of, but they didn't. And the gymnastics fucks you up. The mental gymnastics you have to do to make that work. It's hard. You're angry. You're defensive. And I was that way with my parents and I was that way with other people and they were worried partly because, you know, I was moving back there. They just wanted me to have a normal life without treads.

[00:22:01] But I noticed towards the end, you know, when those conversations became more intense with other things influencing them like branding, like, you know, the things in the papers, everything that was happening and coming out as things were imploding, it never helped. Those conversations did not help. You know, when you're putting someone on the defense, when you're pressuring them, when you're, you know, having that style. You're using force. Yeah. It doesn't work.

[00:22:30] And I've tried to keep that in mind in situations where I feel like between the state of the world and the way that, you know, the internet shows us all different things and the way that like, you know, sometimes it can be very easy to hone in and just stay in our own like little worldview.

[00:22:52] Sometimes I, I try to remember that because I think part of what NXIVM taught me was that at the end of the day, we can all have similar values, even if they look different ways. I'm not going to say NXIVM necessarily taught me that, but it certainly reinforced that I think in some ways that were negative and maybe positive here and there. But I think just, I don't know.

[00:23:20] It's really, I think a lot about to use NXIVM terminology, the content and the process. Like we have very human processes that, you know, when someone does something, someone will probably react a certain way. And sometimes the content is secondary, even if we think it's the main thing. And the reason I'm saying this is because I thought a lot about like how I would have conversations with lawyers,

[00:23:48] or if I ran into someone at the grocery store, you know, what would I say? And I probably wouldn't know what to say realistically, but at the end of the day, like there, there is ego involved. There is, you know, holding on to, I'm sure a lifestyle or an idea of a lifestyle involved. But like at the end of the day, hopefully like we care about people. We want certain things for ourselves. We want certain things for the world, even if it, we think it should look different.

[00:24:19] And trying to figure out how to like address that. Like when I was talking with Mark or other people, or when I was, you know, when I'm talking with my parents, I don't know. It's an interesting thing because it is deconditioning almost as well. Like it's, you're just trying to like unpack. There's certain metrics, I think too, to pay attention to, you know, that you can't

[00:24:45] subjugate in a conversation. You have to hold the line boundary. And sometimes that requires you setting a boundary. It's a great term that one of our guests said, it's like, you set a boundary to keep the relationship, not end it. And I think when you sit down with your parents, your wellbeing to them isn't ever in doubt, right? They're not going to make you obedient to an ideology or a task at the expense of you and your wellbeing. When you're talking to someone who's

[00:25:12] ideologically captured, because they've subjugated their own morality to the group and their decision making off to the group and justified whatever gets in the way, your wellbeing, you can feel it is no longer their priority. And their dogma is the thing that's taken a front seat and their own morality and their own compassion has taken a back seat to the dogma. And you can feel and see that because they don't see you as a person. And there's a lot of people that dress themselves up in an altruistic

[00:25:41] uniform, right? Hide behind that and are extremely dogmatic and are willing to be malevolent when you push and expose it. Very true. And one of the ways to do that is just be consistent. And it goes on in altruism, it goes on in religion, it goes on in nationalism, right? You know, a lot of people, you know, America, fuck yeah. You know, it happens, you know, with Team America, but it also happens with people that

[00:26:06] come to you with this compassionate kind of front. And when a real life event stresses the merit of what they stand for, they fail and their real dogma and their real character is revealed to you. And very few times do we have relationships and very few relationships ever have that stress test. We all had that stress test in one cataclysmic event and people scattered, right? And everyone's

[00:26:34] character was revealed in one moment. And then people that didn't want to accept that cataclysmic movement, you tried to introduce the forensics to them and they rejected wholeheartedly. And in doing so, you got a stark reminder. It was hard to go, oh my God, I just showed this person forensics. I just showed them a brand. I just showed it to their face and they could not see it. So reality hasn't come in hard enough for them to pivot. And that's oftentimes what you see, you see in politics that

[00:27:03] people advocate for these policies that the effects of those policies will never wash back up in their gated communities, but they will say what's good for you isn't good for me. And that is the inconsistency that we all felt. And then unfortunately or fortunately, it was revealed that this organization doesn't stand for any of those things. It's leveraged all this talk and Keith is the biggest perpetrator

[00:27:25] of it all. And so having to go and pick all that stuff up and reconcile that you were not only duped by it, but you were also unwittingly aligned with it and a perpetrator of these things. And then you as a person who does embody these things has a body of work that you've participated in. And what do you do? I don't have a big enough napkin for that to clean up my mess. Do you know what I'm saying? That's a great way to put it. You know, for, you know what I'm saying?

[00:27:53] That's a great metaphor now. So some of those people have to say, that's not what it is versus finding a big enough napkin. And you've got to own that. You know, at this point, nine years in, I don't know that they're going to have, like what I just said is, I think really good language to what we went through. Now what they will do with that language, rather than let it land and pivot, they will go find holes in it. They'll do things to find out how it's not true. And then if that doesn't work,

[00:28:20] they'll attack my character and tax my personhood. And once I'm in conversations that reveal this person isn't worth my time anymore, I need to remove myself and sever my relationship with them accordingly. You have good boundaries, Nippy. Yeah. Better than mine still, I think. That's what, well, same. I'll accept a phone call from anyone who wants to talk from that side, and I have. And Nippy's like, don't, no, not interested. They've demonstrated, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, I agree. But I also still have this spot for like, anyone can redeem themselves.

[00:28:49] Well, it isn't to say that, but if I ever get on the phone with them, I'm going to go hear the ground rules. I'm not going to indulge a conversation where Keith Raniere isn't who he is and who he's in jail. He didn't abuse people. He didn't abuse my wife. He didn't abuse a bunch of other women. He didn't do these things. And if there's going to be a conversation, you're going to pretend that any of those things aren't true. I'm going to end it because I'm not having a reality-based conversation anymore. I'm having one that's indulging your fantasy and you're still ideologically captured by something that isn't real. Care to continue? How recently have you talked? And that's reasonable.

[00:29:19] No, that is reasonable. No, they, look, they don't, they know not to contact me. They know I have clarity on it. My clarity for them is a problem. My clarity wrecks their delusion and I'm willing to weaponize it against them. I think they need that. Sorry. I tend to not put myself in situations where I don't get triggered by people who are behaving that way. Cause I just, sometimes I'm not emotionally mature enough to like bite my tongue. But that said, I just don't put myself in those

[00:29:45] situations. And I think if people, my friendships are predicated on like, okay, I'm going to ask Nippy because they want to, you know, and I know how to ask questions. And like, if it's a good faith conversation, then I'm, I think I can shine in it. But like with people like that are still doing the emotional gymnastics around it and then victimizing themselves to our clarity and making what we see a problem, I don't really have a lot of patience. And why would I?

[00:30:12] I don't, you don't want, you don't win anything. And what they're trying to do is win a conversation. I'm trying to move the ball forward. Not to mention that we already all went through that while we were there, let alone getting on it. Yeah. And we're done and we're done with it. Right. Exactly. One of our questions from our Patreon audience, who is very excited that you're coming back, this is from Cameron Manier said, so excited to hear from Isabella again. I wonder if she talked

[00:30:38] with Mark since leaving and filming The Vow. I think you answered that. He said, I assume not since I last heard Mark was still deeply loyal to KR, but curious if you've been able to connect with them or any others that were still in when you left. Also congrats on being back into art and creating. How has your art journey been since filming? So we've already talked about the loyalists. Tell us about your art journey.

[00:31:04] Even cult podcasts need sponsors. Check out these must-haves. I don't know about you guys, but I like keeping my money where I can actually see it. Unfortunately, big wireless seems to like keeping it as well. After years of overpaying for phone bills, mystery fees, and those free perks that somehow cost extra, I finally want to tap out

[00:31:31] and switch to Mint Mobile. Mint exists to fix exactly that. Premium Wires plans start at just 15 bucks a month. You still get high-speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network without the financial side-eye. And switching is super easy. Bring your own phone, keep your number, activate with eSIM in minutes, and you're good to go. No contracts, no hassle. So yeah, maybe it's time to stop doing wireless the hard way. Get three months of premium service for 15 bucks a month

[00:31:59] with Mint Mobile and keep more of your money where it belongs. Next time I switch my mobile plan, that's what I'm using. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash culty. That's mintmobile.com slash culty. Upfront payments of $45 for three months, five gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 per month. New customer offer for three months only, then full price plan options available. Tax and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[00:32:37] Did you skip over all the ads? We hope you didn't. Thank you to our sponsors and thank you for listening. Now let's resume our culty combo. Yeah, so art-wise, I've kind of had a love-hate relationship with art, honestly, since coming to Albany or going to Albany. I love everything that

[00:32:59] I've made, but the process of making it in recent years has been tedious, if not triggering, usually. It's been very frustrating for me. And I feel like, so I'll back up. I was finishing art school when I went to Albany. And so it was very much a part of my life every day. As the gaslighting

[00:33:27] and the manipulation and the fight or flight just became my entire world, very quickly, the creative parts of your brain kind of get overshadowed. And trying to force that or be pressured into that didn't really work. Like for context, and I don't know if I'm into this last time we talked, but I was in a goals lab for like arts and creative people and like dancers, performers, all of that.

[00:33:53] And I just really didn't want to be there. I didn't want to do it. I was still new enough into, fresh enough out of the real world to be able to say like, yeah, this doesn't feel right anymore. So I was able to vocalize that, but I kept getting brought back in and pressured back in. And basically by the time I would fight my way into saying, like be able to speak up and say, I don't want to do this. They'd say, what? You keep coming back. Clearly you need to do it.

[00:34:23] So I was kind of a really rough cycle of that, that I think I kind of perpetuated on some level upon leaving where I would just continue to try to like force myself into making art or take commissions that I shouldn't have taken and things that would have been enjoyable before, or would have taken me a night or two to do before took me seven months. It didn't flow. It's not like a skill that you just

[00:34:52] like you follow a pattern and you do it. It's not like slicing paper, cutting chicken. It takes, I heard a quote the other day that was like, a skill is like physical, a craft. You use your, like your hands and your head and art, you use your hands and your head and your heart. And my heart wasn't in it. And my head was spinning a million directions. And so my hands didn't work.

[00:35:23] And that was, it was very difficult for me to be able to say like, let me step away from it and mean it. And I think that's something I'm still struggling with because I think it's something I really do identify with. I've done art a lot of different kinds my whole life. And there's a level of like pride in like, you know, this is something at least in the past I have been good at or something like

[00:35:49] I have an eye for. It was my main skillset. I have a college degree in it that I invested in it. So like figuring out my relationship, but that now has been an ongoing process that has coincided with, you know, different phases of healing. Something I've realized to kind of, or kind of re-recognized recently is whatever art I've kind of gotten into at different points of my life has balanced out

[00:36:18] whatever I'm dealing with. So growing up when my tics were really bad, when I was dealing with not knowing what was going on in my body or how to deal with it, I had gotten into like acting and theater and stuff like that. And it gave me a kind of like confidence. It gave me kind of skills for being with people. It gave me a way to kind of like express and engage in a way that maybe I didn't always feel

[00:36:43] comfortable in the day to day or, you know, allowed me to build skills around that. And then later on college, high school, like, you know, visual art allowed me to decompress. It gave me an outlet to focus to almost like, it was almost meditative, which was helpful for my tics as well in different ways. It gave me community. It gave me a lot of things. But when I was in Albany, I was so confused

[00:37:11] and I didn't- They muzzled that. They muzzled that. And not even directly, just that happened to be an effect of, imagine that. An oppressive culture. An oppressive culture. You don't feel super creative. So that being said, I'm still kind of working through what makes sense for me right now. I have been definitely active on social media,

[00:37:37] which there are pros and cons of. Like, I do want to share things that I do, but also there's like pressure to share things that you do because algorithms kind of suck. And so like, you know, a lot of people congratulate me on like, you know, doing a lot of art or being involved in it again. And I both appreciate that. And I also feel almost a little ingenuine in it because I almost feel like,

[00:38:04] because I feel like I don't know how I identify. I identify as an artist, but not as a painter right now. So I'm figuring out what makes sense. And coming out of Albany, when I got out, I started doing like swing dancing and tango and salsa and like social dances, which was really good for me. Yeah. And I mentioned that last time, but because I, it was so good for me to have like

[00:38:28] healthy movement. And I was doing open mics because I didn't have a voice. You couldn't hear me when I talked for like a year out and that helped. And now I don't know. I feel like I'm, I kind of want to get into like speaking honestly, or like performance and kind of hone in on that and grow in those ways. That's awesome. That's great. Isabella, as you're talking, I was recognizing,

[00:38:58] you know, it makes sense because your identity was so wrapped up as an artist and a painter. And I think so much of the work, though, I hate to use the word, the stuff we're doing now to work on ourselves, AKA the work. And Nippy and I are in a similar boat, like who are we? You know, like so for much, so much of our life, we were identifying as Nexians or Espians or whatever. And then we're identified as like healing post. Well, I am as like a, you know, cult advocate,

[00:39:25] you know, and as this chapter ends or, you know, who knows what's next. It's like, well, who are we? What do we want? What are our values? Even that, at least for me, that inquiry is a little triggering because. Yeah. Well, how do you apply it? Yeah. How do you apply it? So I don't think you're alone in that. And I don't necessarily identify as an actor anymore. I still, I mean, I did voiceover and narration and some commercials here and there, but I'm not like on set, haven't been in years. So I don't know. Yeah. I think it's just part of what we're all doing right now. It's like,

[00:39:53] okay, we did that. We're healing. That's a trajectory all on our own timeline. And what do we want to do next? Yeah. That's great that you have some things to look forward to. It's really exciting. Yeah. I want to check out that museum too. Oh, you should. Come to Buffalo. I'll show you around. It's really fun. All right. Will do. When we connected about doing this, you said you had something to share. Have we covered it all? No, there's like one or two things. Do you have a minute still? If not, it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. We should probably,

[00:40:22] yeah. Well, like we'll gear towards wrapping up, but tell us those things as we close out. There's two things. So one was you were asking me about Mark and something that I care about Mark. I don't know. It's, but it's weird to care about someone who, you know, in the situation.

[00:40:51] Come after him. Yeah. We're in the situation we're all in. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was just thinking the other day about like when I was, I didn't, you know, go into NXIVM in a way that was planned. I didn't out and then like kind of just circumstantially moved out in the middle of the night with some help. And when I came home, like I moved home a couple of weeks later, then it was like Christmas and we

[00:41:20] traveled and like, it's basically like back for a day or two. And you know, my sister comes into my room and like, I'm literally asleep. And she's like, Hey, mom wants us to get like the last few things that you had at your house in Albany. We don't want there to be like any issues if stuff is left there, any reason they could contact you or come after you. And like, like I was living with like a couple of women that like, it just didn't seem like that would happen. I didn't think it was necessary. I get where my mom's coming from, especially from the outside. Maybe it could have

[00:41:50] been used as an issue. I don't know. But like literally two hours later, I'm on the road to Albany, not planning on it at all. Just spent the entire month going back and forth to different cities and high stress situations. And this is a few days after Christmas. I was planning on probably being back in Albany at this point anyway, living there, getting ready for whatever ridiculous New Year's thing that we were being obligated to do and fucking apropos like the year before.

[00:42:19] There's the footage that you saw on the vow and there was the phone calls and people convincing me to come back and Nancy texting me just, I'll be happy to talk with you when you come back. Or if you come back, I'll talk to you. Not even with you, to you. You know, it was just, it was completely different set of circumstances than the last time I was there intentionally. And when I went, I brought gifts along with me and gifting is like one of my like main love

[00:42:47] languages. I love getting people things. I don't know if it like comes with being an artist. I appreciate little things that I think about people, but I had gifts for everyone. And I had cards that I usually like make my own cards and I put a lot of effort into them so it could actually be kind of stressful. So I hadn't had any of them finished. Basically, like we stopped halfway at my sister's

[00:43:11] apartment in Syracuse and, you know, stay there for the night so we could leave the next morning and go to every like fucking shop and restaurant that I had art in and get stuff from here, get stuff from here, go to my apartment, get a fucking treadmill or whatever I had. Like it was just, it was a crazy time. So it's like, I'm exhausted and I'm sitting in my sister's apartment and I'm just looking at all

[00:43:37] these like cards and gifts that I have for people there. And, uh, and I wrote things I, on the cards, I wrapped things. I had things for like some of the kids that I babysat and I was able to leave some of them with the people there. And I had some stuff for Mark and Justin actually. And because I wasn't

[00:44:01] planning on doing this and I didn't have anything finished and the weeks prior didn't, they were different than I had expected my December to be. I didn't have them finish. And because of the OCD and I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I wanted them, especially given the circumstances, the cards and what I said to be just right. I wanted it to be intentional and show my love and

[00:44:27] show my care and, you know, tell them that, you know, I got these things for you because I thought you'd like them because of an inside joke or something that you care about or whatever. And just little things. I was broke, you know, we all were, but things that were from the heart. And I never finished the cards. So I didn't want to give them the gifts without the cards. And I remember making one stop to drop something off, like in Knox Woods, like I ran in while my

[00:44:55] sister was in the car and Justin happened to be there. And I don't know if that was on purpose, you know, because he knew I was going to be there or- This is Mark's brother. Mark's brother. Yeah. Or, you know, he just happened to be there because, you know, they were friends. You know, we all were, but for the most part, I thought we all were, but I don't know, but there's drama I heard about after, I don't know. But I stopped there and he was there and

[00:45:21] I was already super socially awkward because, you know, gaslighting and exhaustion, but I didn't know how to handle the situation. So it was super awkward. I might've given him a hug or, you know, just said hello. And he was like, you know, he handled it well. He was like, Hey, you, you know, like, what are you doing here? Like what's going on? And like, he was very friendly. Cause he knew you, he knew that you'd left at this point. Yeah. Yeah. I was getting calls. Like we'd already had conversations on the phone,

[00:45:47] like the ones with Mark, like this was weeks after I was gone in the middle of the night. They, you know, and so they all knew I had left. I worked with Justin a lot. He gave me a lot of work while I was there and I cared about him a lot. And despite like some of the unhealthy behavior that was pretty common in the environment, he was also kind, I would say to me. Yeah. I got along with Justin.

[00:46:13] Yeah. But I guess, I just, I guess what I wanted to say was it just, I, it's interesting. I never mailed them the gifts. I thought I would, but I was broke and things were more chaotic than I expected them to be. But like, I always felt odd. And I always wondered if they took it as a slight or intentional that like, I dropped all these little things off to people and I didn't have anything for them, but it wasn't because I didn't care. It's because I

[00:46:43] cared a lot and I still have them upstairs in a box with a bunch of stuff from like that time and the cards that I started and never gave to them. And yeah, I don't know. Time is odd. And it's a lack of closure. Yeah. One day. Yeah. It's hard as well. So. I still give, I have hope that one day you'll be able to give them those cards or those presents. And

[00:47:12] I still believe that anybody can wake up and if they're listening and who knows if they're listening, I don't know if they do, but if they're listening, I just, I really do hope that this is an indication to them about how many people. They're not listening. Well, if they are. Stop talking. I hope that it helps them heal and maybe see a different perspective. But you know, Nippy's probably right. They don't listen because that would be contributing to dishonor. Anyway. Right? Isabella, thank you for sharing.

[00:47:42] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I always love chatting with you. Yeah. I guess there's, there's always hope for all of us. So. Next stop Buffalo. Yeah. Please do come. Or let us know if you're in Atlanta. Yeah. Absolutely. And so glad that you are, you know, thriving and shining. We'll see. Next stop. You look great. Moving out of my parents' house. We'll see. One thing at a time. So thank you guys. It's always so nice to talk with you. Thank you. Yes. Thanks for being for part one of a where are they now?

[00:48:13] Okay. Amazing. Thanks guys. Thanks Isabella. Thanks Isabella. Great. All right. All right, everybody. That was the end of part two. We do have some really incredible interviews coming up with former guests, Mark Vicente, Bajorette Bouillon.

[00:48:43] And who else would you like to hear from? Let us know on Instagram or Patreon or wherever you listen. Bye. See you next time.

[00:49:35] We hope you're enjoying A Little Bit Culty. Executive Produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound. Our co-creator is Jess Temple Tardy. Our production coordinator is Leslie Detsonborn. Writing by Sandra Namoto and social media marketing by Eric Swarzynski and Brooke Keane. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artist John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. time.