Witness Underground: Scott Homan on Music & The XJW Movement

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_09]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_09]: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_09]: and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_09]: A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_09]: You might even already be in a cult.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Oops, you better keep listening to find out.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome back everybody to A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_09]: As you know, we've already done an episode with an ex-member of the Jehovah Witness community,

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_09]: but people keep reaching out and we realized that there is a vast range of experiences

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_09]: that range from a little bit culty to a lot culty from that community.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_09]: And so we are still on the lookout for gas and stories to share here on ALBC.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Our guest today is filmmaker Scott Homan, whose debut documentary featured titled,

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Witness Underground, is shedding light on the ex-Jehovah's Witness experience

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_05]: to the lens of the underground music scene.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Scott's film delves into the journey of notable underground bands within the culty culty J.W. organization

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_09]: and explores how it's possible to harness the power of art for liberation

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_09]: even within the constraints of a tightly controlled environment.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Just fascinating.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And he would know Scott has more than just a little street cred in the subject.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_05]: As he was raised a second generation Jehovah's Witness in Wisconsin

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_05]: where his teenage music community recorded albums while being influenced by everything J.W.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_09]: He later studied photography and digital media in Minneapolis

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_09]: and now runs Banana Island films.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_09]: And these days he's focused on telling stories about artists escaping cults.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I like those stories. How about you?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Homan sounds like our kind of human.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_05]: See what I did there?

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_05]: See how I work?

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_09]: We were excited to talk to him about his story and get his thoughts

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_09]: on how self-expression can help pave the way to healing.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Wait, should we start a rock band maybe?

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Nipi has, you got this like frontman energy.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: It's true I've heard that but I think those days are done.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Although McJagger's still doing it at 80.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_09]: I think we'd be more like Donnie and Marie except Mary.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_05]: You're like the goth base pillar.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Come to think of it, Donnie and Marie would be dream guests.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Mormon sibling pop stars with a cult following.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a culty trifecta.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I digress.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_05]: You did. I digress.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Here's our chat with Scott Homan, director of Witness Underground.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Welcome Scott Homan to A Little Bit Cultie.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Hii, thanks for having me.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_09]: Hey!

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: On the pod.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_09]: On the pod, finally.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love your show and it's been a long time coming.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a dream actually to be on A Little Bit Cultie.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Dreams do come true right here on the podcast.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: How'd you hear about it, Curious?

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh wow.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Since I released Witness Underground, our documentary,

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been trying to find audiences that aren't just

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: former Jehovah's Witness groups and there's a lot of private groups

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and quite a few YouTube shows and some podcasts on that topic

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: but for me it's always, there's a whole world out there

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: like every cult is, there's a lot of similarities

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and I want to try to bridge those gaps

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and I feel like the film tries to do that

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: but getting outside of the bubble

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: inside of the ex-Jehovah's Witness bubble

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: was important for getting a film out in the world

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and I like that you're both very vocal about your experience

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's so many parallels

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually people wouldn't probably think of self-help

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or sex cult as similar to what people think of as a benign Christian group

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's a lot of similarities to the control structure.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's looking for shows and your shows just skyrocketed

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: along with the vow.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, we heard from a lot of ex-JWs

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_09]: well JW, ex-JW, Mormon, ex-Millor and people who'd seen the vow

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_09]: and they're like holy shit. Thank you.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Well also to, well we'll get into it I'm sure

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_05]: but JW hits all those things that we went through

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_05]: and it very, I find it more intense way.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Are you offended or are you okay with us saying JW or J-Dub?

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_05]: No, that's fine.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_09]: It's for efficiency really.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_09]: Also J-Dub sounds a bit like a rapper.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: The first time I heard it was on a chairlift

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: back in the day with it was like on Christmas

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Jehovah's Witnesses flood all the ski resorts

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: because they can't celebrate Christmas

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: so all these ski resorts are like playing Jehovah's Witness

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: like church music and people

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone on the mountains of Jehovah's Witness

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: so like this kid was like are you J-Dub

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like, I thought he was asking me something about marijuana

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like J?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what are you saying?

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_09]: You want to smoke a J-Dub?

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_09]: So the Jehovah's Witnesses go skiing

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_09]: and the Jews go for Chinese food.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I've actually been going for Chinese food

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because like on Christmas

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: ever since I learned that

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Jews, Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: hanging out at the Chinese restaurant.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_09]: So before we get into

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_09]: all the exciting things you're doing now

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_09]: tell us a little bit about your story.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_09]: I know you weren't born into the JW world.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_09]: How'd you get in?

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So my story is a bit strange

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and so Jehovah's Witnesses knock on doors, right?

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's like one of the few things they're famous for

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that birthday's and the end of the world

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: No Christmas.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: My grandparents

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: in their early retirement

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: when they were like 55 hit the road

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and moved away so like I didn't really know them

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but they were living in Florida,

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: out from Wisconsin.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: They lived in Florida, New Mexico during their retirement

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and you'd land in a new place

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: called members who are trying to find new members,

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: recruit, you're an easy target

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're new in the neighborhood

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is back in the early 80s

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so there was no internet, hard to meet new people,

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: hard to find community

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were like ripe for the picking

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know, they're getting older

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: so the idea of death is coming

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and their big pitch is

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you're gonna live forever

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: so don't even worry about death.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not a thing for you

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and they got hooked by the concept

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: of a million, millions now living will never die

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: was the big slogan from the 1920s

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were still selling that idea

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: even though most of those millions had died

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: who read that book originally

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: when it was hot off the press in the 20s

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: my grandparents were like

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we're gonna be part of those millions who never die

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they influenced my dad

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and my uncle and eventually both of

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and then all four of them, their kids

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: to join the religion

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and then because of my parents' age

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: joining the religion

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: then us kids were influenced by that

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: even though my mom was sort of like

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: resistant to it

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and still is resistant to a lot of it

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: now she's pretty much towing the line

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but after 30 years of pressure

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: she's somehow resistant to this cult

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but I sort of had

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: if you were to break it down

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and oversimplify it

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I had like a two different faith household

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: my dad was trying to join this cult

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and doing a poor job of indoctrinating us

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's trying hard

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: with his limited time with five kids

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and my mom was basically like putting her foot down

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and saying no Saturday morning cartoons are okay

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and so is baseball

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and so are our cousins who are Lutheran

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and our non-religious family

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so like I had a dual perspective household

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: without a lot of the rules that most

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of the indoctrinated and born ins

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: would have did get

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so I had kind of a lighter

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So you had compare and contrast abilities

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, lucky for you

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel very fortunate for that

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: because in a way I feel like I had a normal childhood

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: all of my high school friends would disagree with that

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: because I missed all of the birthdays

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and some of the parties

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and didn't use any drugs

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was unfortunately like in purity culture

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: so missed out on a lot of coming of age moments

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that they all went through that I was not there for

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, rites of passages

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_09]: And for those who don't know

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_09]: why is it that you don't celebrate birthdays

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and Christmas and any holidays

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_09]: or pledge allegiance to the flag

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_09]: or any of that stuff

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_09]: what's the meaning behind that

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well there's two perspectives

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: One is

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Like what they say there it is

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and then what it actually is

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: He looked up to the left like oh boy

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Here we go

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: There's my Rolex

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately comes down to persecution complex

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and what they want as part of the indoctrination process

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: especially for youth

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: is to be separated from everyone else

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and then to make a stand for the cult

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: even if you don't even understand why

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but then they try to logically

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so you're getting removed from the classroom

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: during the pledge of allegiance

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not a part of all the birthday

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: celebrations of all your friends

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: so you're missed

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you're not there for any of the important moments

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: of those people's lives and the fun

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you feel like you're missing out on something

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: with missing Christmas

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and everyone's talking about it for a month

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and everyone's talking about their gifts

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and their family experiences

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and you have nothing to say

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and you like for that whole month and a half

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and I still have this problem

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you're sort of like left out

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but then you have to find a reason why

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: why are you doing this?

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: so you have to make up your own conclusion

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: they will give you lots of logical reasons

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or spiritual

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: they'll call it a spiritual reason not to do so

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you're spiritually clean

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're dirty pagans

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but there are reasons

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the logical reasons for

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: they use a scripture

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: so they can say it's Bible based

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and like God wants this for you

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and only true Christians act this way

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: so birthdays

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: here's the Jehovah's Witness pitch

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: there are two times the birthdays

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: are mentioned in the Bible

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: one is King Herod of Egypt

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: or somewhere in that part of the world

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and he had a true follower of God

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in prison

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was John the Baptist

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he cuts his head off

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and serves on a silver platter

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: because someone wanted it

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: on his birthday

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and if I might be missing a couple

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: fine details there

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but basically that's the idea

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: like he's murdered

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and then also the baker

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: who made the cake

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: at another moment in the Bible

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: so all the people that are associated with birthdays

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: get murdered

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they are not God's followers

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that were doing the murdering

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were murdering God's followers

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so from their perspective

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that's bad

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Christmas is because

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: basically all the holidays

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that are considered Christian today

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: have no basis in the Bible

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but are actually originated in pagan world

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and Catholics adopted them

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and then so all Christians still do them

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're sort of normalized in culture

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and all that's not untrue

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but that is their reasoning

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_09]: How do you define the persecution complex?

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, persecution complex

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: is actually a concept I've been learning about

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: more recently

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but essentially

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm out of the religion 15 years

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Shunned for 15 years

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm sort of doing this channel

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: interviewing artists who've left the religion

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm learning about some of these deeper concepts

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and persecution complex is the idea

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that you want your cult members to believe

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that they are being attacked for their faith

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're not

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: like you just separated yourself from everyone else

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and you ousted yourself

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so like the idea of someone, some kids

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and bully in primary schools

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: going to tell some fourth grader

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that he's

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: say some mean things to him

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: use name calling or make fun of his religion

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: but that kid has separated himself from that class

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: or his parents told the kid he had to

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: or the teachers told the kid he had to

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: because his parents made a big deal about it

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: at the parent teacher conference

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and so the kid has been like basically kicked out of the class

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: in front of everybody every single day

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: for the last five years of his life

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: from kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, fourth grade

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and now some kid is bullying him on the playground

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because he's a Jehovah's Witness

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: so it feels like he's being attacked

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: but ultimately like he was set up for that situation

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but then you're like

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: then you go home to your echo chamber

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: of your parents or your siblings

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or like someone said something mean to me in the playground

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and that reinforces this idea

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're being persecuted

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: just to give a colorful example

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, actually it's part of our cultural worlds right now

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_09]: But it's also like

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_09]: when you say similarities between what you saw in the vow

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_09]: we were always being persecuted

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_09]: there was always a bad guy coming to get us

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_09]: or that was against us

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_09]: and like that's what happens when you put

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_05]: the victim perpetrator model

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_09]: ethics out in the world there's going to be someone trying to squash you

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_09]: and that also creates more

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_09]: isolation and then more

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_09]: defensiveness that we are doing the right thing

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_09]: because of course you don't want to be wrong

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_09]: so it's a cyclical

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_09]: pattern it sounds like

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right and there's that angle to it that

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: only God's people will be attacked

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like no one's being attacked for being

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: celebrating Christmas

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in a Catholic village or whatever

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_09]: everyone's doing. So it's a righteousness too

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Is this the 90s

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're growing up? Yes, late

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: 80s my parents started going to

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: when my dad started going to this

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: religion and bringing us in

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and trying to do indoctrination lessons

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_09]: And were you a creative

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_09]: spirit from the gym? I think so

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like my dad's like an inventor

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: guy my mom liked

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: play music and so when she's

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: massive with baking and cooking

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that's like her art and we were always encouraged

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: to play and make things so

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we had a pretty nice

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: world for the creative side of things

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: kids have access that we were exposed to lots of

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: different kinds of creativity growing up and then

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the one that really stuck for me was music

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: my older brother got a drum set

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I got my mom got

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: me encouraged me to play saxophone because she

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: played saxophone but then eventually like I got

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Nirvana's Never Mind and the Weezer's first

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: blue album and I was like

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I need a guitar immediately and I started learning

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: how to play guitar so I

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: mowed a bunch of lawns and bought myself a guitar because

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: my parents were like you can learn a Pink Floyd song

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: on saxophone then we'll get you any guitar you want and I was like

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm done. I'm playing punk rock

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm playing alternative

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: grunge that's what I want to do.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So music became a whole thing

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and my little brother and I

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: played a lot together and we met a lot of

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: musicians in our high school later on

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and we had like my parents bought the

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: neighbor's house and we built our own studio basically.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_05]: How do you think that contributed to you

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_05]: ultimately wanting to defect because it seems like

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_05]: creativity would be that impetus right?

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and it's actually

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: so I feel like music

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of pressures from the religion

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and it wasn't so much that they were saying you can't play

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: music in my world like elders

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: in the next congregation over were musicians or as a

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: drummer who is in our congregation

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: in polka bands

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: in Wisconsin there's a huge polka scene

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: like every wedding had a live polka band

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone danced polka until like year 2000

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in my weird

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Polish German colony but

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like music was an off-limits and

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: my parents were big in music they were a little

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: about on the loose side on that side

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to Jehovah's Witness stuff because they were new in

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the religion and they also had a background in the real

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: world and they were big fans

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: of lots of different artists they exposed us to lots of music

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: my mom would buy us like explicit lyric

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: albums from like rappers

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: as gifts and she thought it was cool

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so we had like this

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: a very different than the standard Jehovah's Witness

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: experience but music

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: what I realized is like a lot of the

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: musicians I was a big fan of back in

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: even in sixth grade I was like

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I would recite bomb

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I recited bomb track by rage against the machine

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: as like a poem exercise

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: in my sixth grade class

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: so I was already like listening to

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: very rebellious

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: themes like anti-government

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: themes and in a weird way

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like Jehovah's Witnesses are very anti-government

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and so I was like that's an interesting parallel

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: like I'm proud of being anti-american

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and not standing up for the Pledge of Allegiance

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because like Zach De La Roca

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: also does that in this song

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and like I was like finding these

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: weird all else like the resistance

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of that

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_09]: so you kind of found a parallel

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_09]: to fortify what you were believing

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and of course like Zach's not singing about

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: like being in a religious

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: theocracy slash cult

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to resist America

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: or American imperialism

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and I recognized the difference but I saw the parallel

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and but those met

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: what I guess I think really happened was

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: like punk music

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or anti-government

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: themes in the night's alternative music

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: was really the thing that

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: was becoming my

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: giving me an education

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: was from the music and then I was writing my own music

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and trying to find my own voice

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was writing silly stuff about

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you know some cute girl

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and wanting to like hold her hand

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: at the punk show

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: or crowdsurf with her or something

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you know like silly teenage stuff

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know singing it

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in front of an audience and

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: writing it and recording it and then playing shows

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and finding your voice

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is something that the religions

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of never letting me do

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: your voice is the cult's voice

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you're knocking on the door with their literature

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: with their messaging

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: with their responses to resistance

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to the ideas you're pitching

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: we're basically selling immortality

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and all you have to do is be a slave for the rest of your life

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you might get a reward if you die

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and were you door knocking?

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a tough sell

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: it's mandatory to door knock

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: or you'll get socially ostracized

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: for not doing it

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you won't get invited to the parties and social events

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_09]: do they track you?

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: oh yeah like you have to turn in

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: time every month and if you don't hit your numbers

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll get a talking to

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and people will start calling you unspiritual

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: or bad association

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're not actually hitting your numbers

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's like very regimented

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that would have been me

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_09]: sounds like a bit of an MLM vibe to it

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: well with that tough sales pitch

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: there's gotta be something incentivizing you

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: their sales pitch is actually

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to see your dead loved ones

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: stop mourning

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and imagine them in the paradise

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: basically like

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: manifest them

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in visualized seeing them alive again

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're gonna see them again

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's the carrot on the stick

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: is anyone who's ever died and everyone has someone

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: who they're mourning

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not real

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: they will be there

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll just stick with us and see them again

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_09]: I have a question because we talked a little bit about this with Ian

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_09]: who gave us a good overview of the religion

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_09]: and we'll link that in our show notes

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I never really quite

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_09]: understood

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_09]: how that picture was painted so far

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_09]: is that so many people believe it

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_09]: I guess I have certain beliefs around

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah I don't really know

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_09]: like this could happen or that could happen

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe it lights out or maybe they're in heaven

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_09]: or maybe I'll see my grandma

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_09]: how is it that believed

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_09]: you know what I mean? how do they get so many people

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_09]: with that vision of certainty

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: emotional manipulation

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the certainty of it

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: well they're always using the logical fallacy

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of appeal to authority

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: with the bible as that authority

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're the only one who has

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: access to understand the bible

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: where all the other Christians are wrong

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so basically they do a dual thing

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: where they're like we are right

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: we're God's only voice on the planet

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the leadership and they're

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: book publishing company who are selling

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: immortality but every other religion is wrong

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: so a lot of what they spent a lot of time in the 80s

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and 90s on is that

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: all religions are false religion

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of their individual

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: gods are false gods

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and they are the only ones with the real god

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and so if you point that lens at every religion

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: like here's the 14 reasons why the Catholics

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: are wrong also they are

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: big and sexual child

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: child sex abuse and

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: here's Protestants and they're wrong because of this

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and speaking in tongues isn't real with the Pentecostals

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and over here and over there and over there

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and they do that so like all these other options are melting away

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: for you while they're like

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: they're the true and they're the one

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: speaking truth and they're giving you scriptural

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: backgrounds right or back

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: up for what they're saying and they do read their bible

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: they read their own bible but they do

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: read the bible and

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they're big advocates for doing your own

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: bible reading but they are the interpreters

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and you use their guides only

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a complex thing and I think

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: probably the best way to understand how it works

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: is with the bite model it's not the

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: best way but it's a good way by Stephen

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Hassan behavior control

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: information control thought control

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and emotion control

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and they've knocked those out of the park

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: they're experts at all four

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and if you live in breathe

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that world with all the

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: positive reinforcements and negative

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: reinforcements and the rules

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and the social reinforcements for all that

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it works and anyone who does

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: those things well will have a following

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and maintain control over their followers

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_09]: I think. Yeah. Do you want to give us some

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_09]: examples in each category?

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so witnesses are kind of reinventing themselves

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and every 10 years you kind of wouldn't recognize

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it as a member like

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an almost unrecognizable group to

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: me looking at it now after I've been out 15

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: years but the most recent change

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: they're always changing something and it's like

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the drip change until it's like a transformed

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: environment and one of the recent changes

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: would are that women

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: are now allowed to wear

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: pants trousers

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: for the British. But you know

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: at church so like women have

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: now have the choice and for them they're like

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: oh my god now I can go shopping and we can change

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: our wardrobe that's exciting

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and so if all these pictures

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: all over the internet of active

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: active cult members

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: wearing pants for the first time

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and taking new photos for their

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: their socials but what that is

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: is that's not giving them more freedom

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that's just turning the knob of control

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and now they get to say like oh like

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: those pants are a little bit like too flashy

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Can you wear sweatpants?

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_09]: They have to be trousers

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I would not last long.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah they have, they're

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really funny. They should start wearing sweatpants

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_09]: that'd be hilarious. Any cult that's like

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_09]: you could wear sweatpants. I'm in

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm there

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Another one is men

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: are now allowed to wear

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: beards. Like their

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: founder had a super long

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: beard in the 1800s

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and Jesus in all our pictures has a beard

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: but men have been mandated

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: they'd have to shave. We would get

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: counseled as teenagers

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: for like our sideburns starting to grow

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and like you need to start shaving young brother

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_09]: What was the reason for that

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_09]: or just to control?

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Just a control thing and now it's like

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you can have a beard but it has to be trimmed in a certain way

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it's like it's just a dial

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: change it's not a freedom

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: information control they're not allowed to use

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the internet

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to search for things. They're only allowed

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to read their own literature so like a lot of people that

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: leave their religion they're like I read their literature

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: only and then I left like I

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: de-uninducted and I'd de-converted by using

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: their own library only but

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: if you only do that you'll probably reinforce

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: those beliefs not de-convert

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's why they kind of put a ban on

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Wikipedia is not accepted. The internet in general

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: is sort of like who knows what's out there

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but they have their own website now and they kind of

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: worship the URL information control is huge for them

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and they change it like if they

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: reprint some new idea they go back to the old

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: literature and adjust

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: what it used to say in the 70s

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that if anyone does any research on their past stuff

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like well no no we never said

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that other thing that you think we said

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: like in 1984

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: rewriting of all the past

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: then thought control like they have

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: programming like if

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: imagine you're going door to door

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: riding the countryside in a car

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: going to some address where someone was nice

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to us a year ago we're going back there

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and like you'll bring up an idea

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: have you guys ever you know

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: thought about aliens something really ridiculous

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it could be something very new or something ridiculous but like

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: they respond to be like well

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: we just don't know and yes

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the universe is vast but like

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it wasn't written there was no aliens in the Bible so

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: we shouldn't really

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: speculate on that

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: what happens to like all the aborted babies

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in paradise like do they get a

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: pass are they going to be resurrected or are we going to be raising them

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and like don't speculate about the future

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: but then of course that's all they're doing

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: is like pitching you a big speculation about

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: some imagined

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: paradise that they're selling to everybody

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but you can't imagine anything that would

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: actually happen there practically

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or like how do we roll out

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: like the dead being resurrected

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: or like the bearing of the bodies

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: after genocide like no no no we don't

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: we can't talk about that so like

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a bit of thought control that's like

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: reinforced in the culture

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_09]: can I jump in there for a sec? it sounds also like

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_09]: there's a lot of thought control just in

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_09]: terms of what you

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_09]: what you can think like and this is

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_09]: I think the Mormons have this as well

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_09]: like you're not allowed to doubt

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_09]: it's kind of sister religions

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Mormons and the like

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_09]: but yeah a lot of like it's not

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_09]: okay to control your own thoughts

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_09]: like your own internal gaslighting

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_09]: of like you know that's

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_09]: the voice of what do you call that Satan

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_09]: or what's anything negative if you have a

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_09]: negative thought or a doubting thought

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: they might call that

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: yes seeds of doubt would be

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: they use an analogy about

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: like fishing at least where I'm from in Wisconsin

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: like the tackle box

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: like all the different kind of lures that

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Satan can use to get you and that's

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: just like anything that you're thinking

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: is one more but also

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Satan can't read your thoughts God

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: always is and demons

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: are always watching what you do things are just

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: like that going on I kind of missed

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: your off topic though

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_09]: no no no it's fine this is

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_09]: exactly I know like what's going on in the thoughts

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_09]: like how does how do they control thoughts

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_09]: in order to control

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_05]: well it's making your thoughts bad

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_05]: that's what it sounds like yeah I think

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: your own thoughts like meditation is not

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: like not allowed and

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: they generally teach

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that your thoughts are

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you and as an indication of you

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: being a sinner and

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of you're just yeah a bad person

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and you require them

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to for your own personal salvation

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_09]: which is also like the opposite of meditation

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: this is all

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_09]: but like a meditation teaches you like you're separate from your thoughts

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah you can be

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_09]: you and then you could have a thought which is separate which I think is

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_09]: generally good unless it's

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_09]: transcendental meditation in which case it's a cult

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_09]: this podcast certainly would not be happening

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_09]: without our amazing supportive generous patrons

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_09]: are you with us

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_09]: come find us over on Patreon at

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_09]: patreon.com slash a little bit culty

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_09]: for bonus episodes

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[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_09]: and the occasional zoom with fan favorites

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[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_09]: and all sorts of goodies it's fun over there people

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_05]: sir you know that chicken salad I love

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_05]: my favorite place here in Atlanta

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I sure do babe you know I was thinking about it

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_07]: just the other day you were thinking about the chicken

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_05]: salad I think about it more than

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to admit I was thinking

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[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_05]: of culinary satisfaction at home no disrespect to you

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean I'm going to try to not be offended

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_09]: but I get where you're coming from

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_05]: okay just maybe I manifested it but it turns out

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_09]: he's manifesting now cook unity

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[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_09]: get back to a little bit culty

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_05]: it seems like the bite model

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_05]: the way the Jehovah's Witness uses

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_05]: it is to attack all things that they

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_05]: can perceive as a threat

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_05]: lay down to like the pledge allegiance to the flag

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_05]: well what if he sees the flag a certain

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_05]: way you know it's like anything

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_05]: that they're highly anticipated

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_05]: the potential

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_05]: threats to your indoctrination

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_05]: seems like it's well thought out as

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: well yeah they also have like

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: 130 years of

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of nonsense refining

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: they keep on recycling so there's

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: like incredible amount of contradictions

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in their own beliefs

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they pivot and switch and anytime

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: they're like hey this is what we now believe

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and you have to adopt it it could be a thing that

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: they were saying in the 1950s

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they went away from it and you had to adopt

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the new thing and now they're going back to it

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of that going on and every single time they call it

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: new light it's like well

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: new light was it wrong

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: then

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: are you admitting your wrongs

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: they'll never say that

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the light is getting brighter they say

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's right

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_09]: what about emotion how do they control through emotion

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the strongest piece

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of emotion control is what I

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: mentioned about the pitch of you'll see

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: your dead loved ones they're always on the lookout

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: for someone who's gone through something

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: heavy emotionally and

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and they will love bomb

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they'll bring you in and entree you

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: amazing and then say sweet

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: things to you about how

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that emotional reality

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: will all be taken care of

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: very very soon like the end of the world

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: is around the corner and they will be the soul

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: survivors of Armageddon

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of the doomsday

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: of Jesus murdering everybody basically

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the blood bath coming the coming blood

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: bath of anyone who's down at Jehovah's Witness

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: they're always talking about taking your houses

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: basically having a zombie apocalypse

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but like Jesus will take care of all the zombies

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: too so you don't have to worry about anything

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: after the end of the world

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_09]: oh like Jesus has his own cleanup crew

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah you'll do all the body

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: burying but they won't like attack you

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: or they're not going to be a threat like in any

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: zombie film

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_09]: it's very complex actually reminded me

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_09]: just tardy our producer shared that

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_09]: when there was a death in the family she got a letter from

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_09]: neighbors who were Jehovah's Witness like

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_09]: she hadn't heard from them

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the emotion control really

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: they're waiting for that moment

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're suffering from something real

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to swoop in

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and tell you everything's going to be okay

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they hook you

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and then anytime you're like

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I miss that person

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or I'm going through depression it's like hey

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you know the new system is right around the corner

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the new paradise everything's going to be fine

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like don't

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: have emotions don't dwell on that

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: dark side we are the light

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to be guiding you

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to the amazing place

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the good place and the distant distant future

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what's in your future in their mind

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_09]: that's such a no offense to any Jehovah's Witness

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_09]: or ex-Jehovah's Witness listening

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_09]: but it's just such a ridiculous carrot

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_09]: you know like it's just so

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_09]: silly that that could even be a thing

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_09]: but you know we believe

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_09]: creating things too well that's the whole thing about

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_05]: the course of control

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_05]: like the content points almost don't matter

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_05]: you got coerced

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_09]: we were promised our own

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_09]: personal selfish success

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_09]: talking about success of

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_05]: the process of hooking you emotionally is the same thing

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah but I'm just looking at it

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_09]: going like how do we know

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_09]: something that's happening in the future how do we know

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_09]: like I can imagine

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_09]: hitting my success as an actor

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_09]: is a possibility

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_09]: but like all those things sound very

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_09]: like sci-fi

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_09]: ish

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and it's all out of your control

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: completely there's nothing you can do

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: even quote the script for like

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: by your works alone

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you cannot get to paradise some loose quote

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: like at least with acting

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you can try hard

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you can learn new skills you can do a workshop

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_09]: what was the quote say it again

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_00]: by works alone you will not gain

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: salvation I mean I'm not quite sure what

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: what version I'm quoting or if I'm

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_09]: totally off it should be

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_09]: by door knocking alone

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_09]: you shall get salvation

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_05]: right exactly

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_05]: well you know one thing I noticed when watching the doc

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_05]: is when you do music

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd imagine you don't feel the

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_05]: ceiling of your life in the way

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_05]: that you feel like the ceiling

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_05]: you just touched on something like you're

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_05]: de-incentivized but music

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_05]: is something you can try hard in and get

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_05]: better and have some sort of relationship

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_05]: with the laws of physics cause and effect

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_05]: like sports might offer that but I don't imagine

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_05]: you guys were allowed to do sports but like

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_05]: there's no

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_05]: there's no incentive if you're

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_05]: not inspired to you know

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_05]: work hard and they de-incentivize you at every point

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_05]: so I imagine music was a great outlet

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: for that yeah it was

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: immediately a great coping situation

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: cause it's in total lack of presence

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: coping and so much of that religion

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: has anxiety about the future

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but also have hope about the future

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're never present

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: really except for when they're doing

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the religious work with the door

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: door knocking it's like a public speaking

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: exercise but

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that's for them that's not for you right

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: like you're being drained when you're doing that

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: nobody really wants to do that

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but music is such a

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you can do that alone, you can do it with others

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's very personal and immediately gratifying

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in our movie Cindy says

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: she would just play guitar and cry

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: she wouldn't be particularly emotional but like

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the act of being present and doing something for yourself

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: is like wow I never do that

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: have you seen Get Out the film

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: there's something they show in Get Out

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I just re-watched it

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: where the real person is inside

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and they show

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: like the eye and like a tear

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and I feel like

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: those moments are like when you do something for yourself

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that person deep inside

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: gets to come out for the first time

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but the religion is telling you

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you can't do that, you shouldn't do that

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: there's more important things to do

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you should think about your future

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and living forever, why are you being so selfish

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but really doing something for yourself

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: is like the key to

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: mental health

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_05]: and love

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_05]: you got me

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_05]: that's powerful

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_09]: it's so true

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_09]: and I think the reason you're able to speak

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_09]: or even make your film

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_09]: or like with Ian Corlett as well

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_09]: you're at least two people that I know

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_09]: who had some outside connection

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_09]: for you music, for Ian

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_09]: he did his voices for a living

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_09]: and he's a voiceover artist

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_09]: but neither of you it sounds like had

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_09]: extremely

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_09]: it sounds like it was really hard but you weren't

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_09]: horrifically abused, am I right?

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_09]: or were you? we haven't got to that point

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: well not sexually or physically

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but emotional, spiritual abuse

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: emotional, spiritual abuse

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_09]: 100%

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not trying to

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not trying to make less of it

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm just saying that the reason is

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_09]: that you're able to speak

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_09]: is because you had that sense of yourself

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_09]: before hand

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_09]: before your parents got involved and then during with music

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_09]: thanks to your mom, right? like what a gift

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_09]: that you had that connection

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and I had a lighter experience

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I had this, I had an opportunity

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to get to know myself young

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: at the important moments

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: yes I had to reject certain parts of society

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: or relationships

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I was enjoying myself, I was having fun

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I was being me, I was playing

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: at life where a lot of witness youth

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: don't get to do that

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're so indoctrinated or so following

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the pattern, the program

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to say something about what I love about your show

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: we have a similar goal which is

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that you guys are both

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you've talked a number of times in your show about

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: like being such active

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: members recruiting people

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and then feeling shame about that

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and also looking back at that time

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to try to understand what were the motivations

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the true motivations of why you

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: were doing it then

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and then also that is motivating you

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: to do your show

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: which is to show other people like hey

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: people don't join cults, they do something that

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: think is good for them at the moment

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: or it's a good thing for their family

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: or a good thing for their future

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: or find a community that's safe

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and I feel like

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: witness underground the movie and the youtube channel

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: with my ongoing interviews

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it's sort of trying to change

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the narrative around the topic

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: like most of what

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I see is like oh the cult, what did the cult member say

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: yesterday or something

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that's like

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: newsworthy but ultimately like

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm proud of my background and the choices I made

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: at the time they've made

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: sense to me at the time and I feel like

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you guys are doing a good job of kind of hey

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: anyone can be a part of something like this

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's tons of different

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: organizations that are using these

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: unhealthy patterns to control you

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think it's

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: a deep value that you're both offering

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: with your show. Thank you

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_09]: now you're going to make me cry

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_09]: trying to offer that

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_05]: anyway. Thank you

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_05]: for saying that, that's the goal

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I think I said on our first podcast

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_05]: I want our story to become content and wisdom

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_05]: for people

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_05]: and then I have a whole manifestation thing

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_05]: that I've just kind of realized about

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_05]: because to your point when we got in this

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_05]: we wanted to do good

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_05]: and manifesting do good

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_05]: we were just aligned with something and we ended up

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_05]: getting there now

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_05]: if that makes sense.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_05]: So manifestation doesn't

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_05]: happen in the way that you manifest it happens

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_05]: in the way that like

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_05]: there's something that maybe we had to evolve

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in that in order to get to that point

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: was there something that you learned

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: from the actual program in Nixxiom

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that you think your show now

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: is actually like embodying? Yeah

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: for sure it can't not

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_05]: a couple things. Say one of the biggest

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_05]: things is we sat down with a

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_05]: volume of people thousands

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_05]: of people over a 10 or a

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_05]: decade period of time got to know people

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_05]: learn to get into rapport

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_05]: with people learn again rapport with people that

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_05]: we otherwise wouldn't have ever met

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_05]: maybe didn't even like it sometimes

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_05]: you know what I mean like there's

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_05]: all sorts of skills that you do just by

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_05]: being around the volume of people and asking them

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_05]: the same questions over and over and over

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_05]: you start to recognize patterns

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_05]: you start to recognize that really

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_05]: human beings aren't that mysterious

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_05]: right I think kind of going into

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_05]: what we do with that

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_05]: understanding it kind of gave us

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_05]: a in a lot of ways we were underestimated

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_05]: by people that came and wanted

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_05]: our story because we would sit down with

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_05]: them and we could tell like you just want our

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_05]: story you don't care about us like

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_05]: those were things that we developed in

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_05]: because we're just so we could understand the intent

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_05]: kind of feel it so when we were

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_05]: out I think it a lot is to make a lot of

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_05]: really good decisions to facilitate what

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_05]: ultimately end up happening there are certain things that weren't in our control but I also think

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_05]: that's that whole manifestation

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_05]: thing that I used to poo poo before

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_05]: spiritually I feel like

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_05]: something happened here that wasn't

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_05]: really in my control I think

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Sarah and I and enough

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_05]: of us put out enough good will

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_05]: and the universe is in the universe's

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_05]: hands and I'm just making good decisions

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_05]: based on what I know and

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_05]: what I know to be inside of me and then

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_05]: that ultimately kind of took care of itself

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_05]: and I wasn't confident in that right

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_05]: so I had the experience of that I just go

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_05]: okay that's what this was about that's why we're here

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_09]: that's the spiritual assessment yeah

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_09]: some people might say

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't use that in a vernacular

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_09]: universe I say universe I don't

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_05]: I never you know me I was I never did that

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_05]: so it's never that guy but when it

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_05]: happened to me I was like hmm maybe there's something to this

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you mean manifestation yeah

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_05]: manifestation yeah or whatever

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: the word is you have for it yeah

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: almost everything I've ever created I had to

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I saw it first and the first

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: practice I could visualize

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the thing and then it's a matter of

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: well you have to go create that thing and you're

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: need a bunch of people to help you and you have to put a

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: bunch of money and time into it but like

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: manifesting I feel like it doesn't work

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: unless you work your ass off after

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_09]: see you have to also work towards it

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah totally yeah plan your time

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_09]: yes you can't just think

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_09]: about it answer your question then I want to get back to

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_09]: you the other thing that

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I love to do this when I'm a guest

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah I see this

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_09]: going on here but I would think the one

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_09]: major thing that was like a

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_09]: core tenant and more so in later years

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_09]: was about character

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_09]: and it was often said

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_09]: like characters not character unless it's

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_09]: tested like you might think that you are a

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_09]: type of person but unless you

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_09]: have a moment that you can actually

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_09]: like in the real world that will tell

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_09]: you what your character is and I feel like

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_09]: I got to test my character in the moment

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_09]: of you know do we blow the whistle

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_09]: and put our lives in the line

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_09]: or just pretend none of it ever happened

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_09]: and slip away quietly which

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_09]: you know we could have done and there's value

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to that people can make that choice

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: like if you're out there and you just want to walk away

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that's fine but some of

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: us need to make a movie totally fine

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah so I was into a movie

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah and I totally respect

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_09]: the people who did that I think

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_09]: for us it was a slightly different because

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_09]: we'd at least for me had been such a big recruiter

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_09]: I felt like the right thing to do for me

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_09]: and a lot of like

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_09]: overcoming things I'd been working on in XEM

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_09]: like caring what people think

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_09]: was something that you know they called it

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_05]: like me disease. Just building awareness around it

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_09]: was valuable. Yeah built awareness around

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_09]: it but then when I actually had to be like

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_09]: I have to really not care what people think

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_09]: in order to do the right thing

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_09]: those are two different conflicting values

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: oh like the negative feedback you might get

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: from the Vow or this podcast

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah from the podcasts but even

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_09]: even before the podcast before we even thought

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_09]: about the podcast we were just blowing the whistle

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_09]: you know I was on the front page in the New York Times

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't think I wasn't thinking about who

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_09]: would like me or not like me I was like this is what has to be

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_09]: done to shut the mother fucker down

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_05]: it's such a we got

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_05]: we got dragged into the fight too

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_05]: you know so it's like

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_09]: so what are you gonna say

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: just the vow is so powerful

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean to take the guy

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: expose it and put him in prison

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and like expose all the dark stuff

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: he was doing and it's not just him

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: like the entire system that was built

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah is amazing

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and I even knew people that were like

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: pitching me to for their

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: recruitment of Nixxiom when I was in LA

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I went on a date in this film really

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: she's like this guy he's like pressuring me

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: he wants me to give him $5,000

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is gonna change my life

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I found out like a year later

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: she's like that was Nixxiom and I was like oh my god

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_09]: oh my god I probably knew the person

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_09]: trying to recruit her

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_00]: but anyway the vow was just like

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: oh my god powerful

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: nice job

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_09]: well we didn't make it but it was great to be part of

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_09]: back to you though so what was your

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_09]: exit like how did you eventually get out

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_09]: because I know you mentioned you've been shunned for

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_09]: many years what led to that

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: so my story like

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I met a lot of people

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: in the religion that I thought were

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting when I was still a teenager

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but most of my friends were never in the religion

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: most of my actual friends I grew up with

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: were skateboarders

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: musicians channel 2

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: public cable access

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: TV friends from my hometown

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I started meeting witnesses basically my dad

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to convince me that there's actually

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting people and I should try it out

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and I should get closer to the religion and I was like rejecting it

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: but I eventually did

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I met all these musicians and started hanging out

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: with them and had a lot of shared interests

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but then most of them out of like 18

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: teens that I was friends with

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like 17 of them left the religion

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the day they moved out of the house

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like how am I

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the one who's still here

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think it was partially I was like

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I can balance both worlds and they couldn't

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: they had to leave

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to make the life they wanted

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to feel comfortable

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_00]: or I was like it's fine

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I can go to church but I can also play music

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and I can do all these I just like light

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: light experience on the fringes of the religion

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and the culture so I kept going

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I left at 19 for like

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like I'm not going anymore

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: it wasn't that I mentally left

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: they call it physically

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00]: in mentally in and there's physically out

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: mentally in

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then there's physically

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: out so you're like pretending

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to go

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I transferred between some of those

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: right and I went back

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to it but I was like I don't really believe a lot of it

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's for family

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever I can maintain both worlds

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: one foot in each door

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever keeping

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: my worlds making sense for me

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: eventually the thing I took another gap

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: where I was out for like six months and didn't participate

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and I felt closer to God

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: if or that idea

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt more spiritual not going to church

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and I thought that was kind of shocking

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and then at some point I finally

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: there were some things I wouldn't research

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so to make the long story short

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I got real sick

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: with a kidney infection and I was like

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_00]: bedridden for a week and then some elder

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: called me and this is what the impetus was

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: he's like hey how are you doing

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like I'm really sick he's like well we haven't seen you

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: at church meetings

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like yeah I'm really really sick

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's like well you know

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm worried about your spiritual world

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm like I'm sick

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: he's like well if you don't show up it's going to be a problem

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and he like you know it was like this really

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: like totally missing the moment

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation and I was like what an asshole

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so that had an effect on me

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm shortening the story and it wasn't so dramatic

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: but like I was like you know what

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I've never actually dove into like

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: what is the actual evidence for a global flood

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: 4500 years ago

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: according to their Bible chronology

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and I found the only people on the internet

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I did an all deep research and watched all these youtube videos

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and read a bunch of stuff

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like there's absolute zero evidence for that happening

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: then at all

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: like just no zero zero zero evidence

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like well that's not true

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: well what else isn't true

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: well I already don't believe like 90% of this religion

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that was like the last thing I was holding onto

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: was like evolution's not real

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_00]: or like the you know Bible prophecy

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_00]: or something and anyway

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: so like that was a huge thing and then I went to one more church

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_00]: meaning after I got

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: after I was healthier and I could go

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: then there was like a homophobic talk

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: basically bashing

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00]: gays and just like

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: in a really really blatant way

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and I just I was like I looked around it's like

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I am in a I'm in a crazy cult

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: looking around all these people just like

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: nodding their heads to like being homophobic

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and I got up and I just like I'm never coming back here

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe any of this

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to be associated with any of these people

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been hating it my whole life what am I doing here

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: right and then everyone back

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm a big education campaign

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think it's important to like

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: when you do get out of something

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it's to like fully wipe the slate clean

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like do your best to de-program

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: to de-convert all the way

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you can rebuild

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and add things back in as you

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: have valid personal experiences

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: or do your research and of course

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not just a one time it's not a wake up moment

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like a I peeled one

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_00]: layer of an infinite onion back

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like oh yeah I've been peeling

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: this onion back for a long time this is just one more

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: layer and there's been many more since then

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: right there was that pinnacle moment

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_09]: the straw that weighs it from

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_09]: the Bible the straw that broke the camel's back

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_09]: I feel like that's biblical I might have made that made that up

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_09]: whatever you know what I mean

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: we do we do

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we do a good expression

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_09]: there's a lot of camels in the Bible

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: is the camel's eye

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah that's what it was the camel's eye

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_09]: for more background on what brought us here

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_09]: check out my page turning

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_09]: memoir it's called scarred the true story

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_09]: of how I escaped next year and the cult

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_09]: that bound my life it's available on Amazon

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_09]: audible and at most bookstores

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_09]: and if you want to see that story in streaming form

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_09]: you can watch both seasons of the vow

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_09]: on HBO

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Sarah you know that chicken salad I love

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_05]: my favorite place here in Atlanta I sure do babe

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_05]: you know I was thinking about it just the other day

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_07]: you were thinking about the chicken salad

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I think about it more than I'd like to admit

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I was thinking how great it would be

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_05]: to get that level of culinary

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_05]: satisfaction at home no disrespect to you

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean I'm gonna try to not be offended

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_09]: but I get where you're coming from

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_05]: okay just maybe I manifested it but it turns out

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_09]: he's manifesting now cook unity

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[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: papa Murphy's triple pet pizza is the perfect

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[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_00]: is the set if you can think

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: of like a film set we're like

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not about music but music

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is is what like keeps

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the story moving forward that's the world you're in

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and all the characters

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00]: are musicians artists which I like

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that framing my personal background

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I was mentioning as a teenager I got into

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_00]: playing guitar and music and

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00]: we had this neighbor our neighbor

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: died and my parents bought the house and became like

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: our music studio in the forest in

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00]: rural Wisconsin so like all hours

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of night all the kids in the

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_00]: county that had guitars that

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_00]: like any kind of like grunge or

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_00]: rock and roll in general had

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_00]: their equipment at our house at that house

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was just a dedicated music space

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: space and we did

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: we run that for years and lived there

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_00]: my I believe they're not my little brother lived there

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and just maintained this thing we called it the crib

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because of MTV cribs so we called

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it oh the crib records and I recorded

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: my album there and another

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: band that came out of that space

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that was like my first band and

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we had a little tour around the region

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and made an album we didn't record it there

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: record it in the other guy's base

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_00]: garage but you know garage band

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_00]: actual garage band

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but it came out of that kind of community

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in space but I realize after making

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_00]: my album and trying to make a band like in the

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00]: movie it's like a marriage when you're

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in a band like the relationships you have are

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so strong and necessary that you

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: have fun and you're playful and you're also

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_00]: like writing and you enjoy and

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's some co there's

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_00]: cohesion socially that's hard

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really hard to maintain and hard to do

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00]: when you have it it's magic and

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_00]: when someone has a problem

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and they need to leave the band it's dramatic

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: for the whole band and you have to replace them and it's

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_00]: a different vibe entirely but then when

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the religion is doing that then it

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_00]: causes problems so I started having that problem

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_00]: early on and

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_00]: there were like one guy left the religion and he wouldn't

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_00]: he wouldn't play music with us and we're like hey like

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_00]: we're barely in the religion like we

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_00]: can still play music he's like no you guys are

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Jehovah's Witnesses and I was like barely

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00]: like come hang out with us and he's like no

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing my own thing I'm independent like

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_00]: okay so we had to replace the bassist and then the guitarist

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_00]: got kicked out of the religion for something sexual

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: intimacy with someone and so like he

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_00]: was out so I had to replace the guitarist

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like man I'm just going to give up

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: so I ended up giving up and I moved to

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Minneapolis where the film takes place

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00]: partially because I had a job and the other

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00]: partially because I had gotten to know

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_00]: over those couple years that there's

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_00]: other Jehovah's Witnesses who make music and I

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: for a long time I was like I'm the only you know

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm one of the only guys who do that and play both

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_00]: in the real world and also in that

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_00]: weird music space with religious

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_00]: people and it's all secular music we weren't

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: like singing like Kumbaya

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_00]: or like Hallelujah or anything we were

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like making music about relationships

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's totally secular type stuff and

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that was really interesting but I'd gotten to know

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: this other whole community through the

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: network like everyone there drives like

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_00]: five hours to meet their friends across

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_00]: multiple state lines and I'd learned

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: about nuclear gopher this like music

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_00]: community and website that only had Jehovah's

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Witness music on it was like oh wow

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that's like a really weird interesting thing

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like so parallel to my weird world

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: been navigating my whole life and I got

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to know some of those people and I moved there

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and became friends with a lot of musicians

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that are now featured in the movie then fast

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_00]: forward a lot of years

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that was sort of our college experience me

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_00]: hanging out with them and everyone in our early 20s

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: is like 20 to 24 years

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00]: old span of time being

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: super engaged in making art in Minneapolis

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_00]: with this huge community of like four or five hundred

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: people like in the art

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_00]: creation space there and it was

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_00]: greater than Minneapolis I went to Chicago

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it was all the way down to St. Louis

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was all across Wisconsin but like

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you know pockets and small

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_00]: bands and groups and but people would

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_00]: drive like four hours to see like come to a cafe

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to watch a bunch of witnesses

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_00]: their own songs it was cool

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it's vibrant is very it was very 90s

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: too and it's a very nostalgic time

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you remember the 90s like

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00]: rock and roll was it was basically

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: pre-internet you know like

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: now we have DJs like rock and roll is not so

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: important anymore. Peek livin. A lot of

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_00]: plaid. Peek livin in the 90s

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_00]: America peaked.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah yeah exactly

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00]: so later I had

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a channel to public access TV

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_00]: thing and I went to work at a TV station

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: as an audio and camera guy

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_00]: my next the next town over

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the bigger town was Wisconsin and then

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I went to school for photography in Minneapolis

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_00]: so whenever I kind of gave up on music

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_00]: even though I was hanging out the nuclear gopher kids

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but I went to school for photography so it's like in this visual arts

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_00]: train I kept coming back to that

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and I finally got a real education in it

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I then the

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_00]: recession hit and I was traveling

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and like we're talking like 2003

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_00]: 2012 span like a lot

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of stuff happened and

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I was traveling I lived in Ecuador I moved from

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Minneapolis to Florida to Ecuador to

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Seattle to Colorado and there's a lot of

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_00]: different phases of my life

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_00]: there and kind of music

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_00]: wasn't really a part of it then but I was doing

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_00]: camera work and visual work

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I left the religion so another huge traumatic

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_00]: thing and then I went back to school

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_00]: for engineering so I'm just like packing up

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and after leaving the religion

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and when going back to school I kind

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: of had this break from the engineering thing or I was like

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_00]: man engineering

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is not really it for me kind of want to go

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_00]: first of all I want to live abroad properly

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I want to get back in filmmaking

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and camera work and visual arts

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so I was like I took some random thing where

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I could teach English in Vietnam

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and I brought and I bought a camera and lenses again

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and I had given kind of given up on the visual arts

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: thing I was like no I'm going to do it properly I'm going to go

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't matter where I am in the world like there's going to be interesting

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_00]: stories everywhere and I went there and I found

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: a music community I started playing music again

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and I started and I realized again that I'm

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_00]: actually not that into this I'm not actually

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like a life or a musician I'm more

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: of a visual arts person

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like playing three cover songs a week

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: but then I was like

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00]: after I would play my set at an open mic

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I would like record people that were doing amazing

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_00]: music and I was just like

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to start making music videos for these people

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and I started making friendships, making music videos

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and I started doing documentary work with

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: people I met that music venue

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and I met this French filmmaker

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and I met this Vietnamese American filmmaker

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and I started working with those guys and getting a professional education

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was then where I was like

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a story to tell

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it was like eight years after leaving the religion

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: where I was like I should start trying to tell

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_00]: this story about shunning because I feel like

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yes the religion growing up and it was tough

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but I also had really chill parents

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and a really chill family

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and a pretty relaxed environment when it came to

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the Jehovah's Witnesses compared to what you might

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_00]: think of normally or what people you might

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: learn about on your podcast or interviewing people

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's pretty intense. What really caused traumatic

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: a trauma for me was actually

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_00]: after leaving the religion was the

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_00]: shunning and getting cut off

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_00]: from parents and siblings and I was like

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_00]: how do you tell that story? How do you talk about

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: disconnection in video

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and disconnection in documentary

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00]: or interview and so I started experimenting with that

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I was making like creative short films

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_00]: there with these filmmakers

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and I randomly hit up

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and I have all these musician friends that were X-Winuses

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're like, you know, they weren't just X-Winuses

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00]: they were friends and that was like a connection

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that was deeper than the religion

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and so I was like hey Eric and Cindy, Elvendol

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00]: do you guys want to help us with this 40 hour

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: film project? We're doing this creative before

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Sunrise style romantic

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: film and they sound tracked it like in 24 hours

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Was this the 48 hour film festival?

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_09]: We did that in Vancouver too. I didn't know it was international

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh cool, yeah

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's an LA based small

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_00]: company but like they do it all over the world

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so I got involved in Vietnam

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It was so fun and then just

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: random like connection

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it had been years since we really talked

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I hit up Eric and Cindy and they're like

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they knocked out this amazing soundtrack and then my French

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_00]: filmmaker director friend was like

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to start hiring them and he did

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was getting commercial work and I started hiring

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: them and they were doing commercial songs

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: for custom songs for like commercial work

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I started doing this

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_00]: interview series called X-W Coming Out

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_00]: partially inspired by Eric

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and also this American guy

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_00]: met in Munich, Germany

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_00]: one of my early interviews, he said he came out twice

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because he's gay but he also came out of the religion

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so he's like he came out again and I was like

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_00]: oh I love that as a title

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_00]: X-W Coming Out series which was like

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_00]: documentary style interviews discussing

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_00]: disconnection from family, friends

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and then with that I was like

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_00]: oh this is bigger and I'm actually really enjoying this

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and it feels powerful

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it feels rewarding and like a deep

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_00]: purpose and meaning in what I'm doing

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_00]: wasn't just a commercial or

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: an advertisement or a music video

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_00]: this is about real life

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_00]: this is about a real connection or disconnection

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_00]: what does it mean to build community

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_00]: after being dragged

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you know through the mud

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_00]: by cult members over

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_00]: your own personal world view

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that we crowdfunded this documentary

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Witness Underground and

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it was all a piece of like I needed a big break

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't tell anyone I was a part of that religion

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_00]: for like six years because

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_00]: no one would understand it, no one would think

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_00]: it has more than three minutes of their time to like

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_00]: hear about your traumatic moment

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_00]: even if they're a super close friend nobody cares

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they have their own stuff going on

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but no one will even get it

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't matter how many hours I spend talking about a topic

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_00]: they'll never get it

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_00]: so I wanted to make a movie because I felt like

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00]: not only did I feel like it was an important topic

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00]: for people to understand that this religion does this dangerous thing

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're not the only one who does it

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and that shunning is evil

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's all these pieces I wanted to tell

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I also didn't want to just look back

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and be like oh everything sucked

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually proud of some of the experiences I had

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like happy about my past

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's not

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not just a weird ex cult member

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't just

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: some poor sad cult member

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: in my youth

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like a minor rock star in my mind

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I was doing documentary

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: film and we were having fun

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and we were going on cool trips

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and I had formative important experiences

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: with other cult members

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and also I looked back with great

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: nostalgia on that and I wanted to create

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: a piece that was people could watch

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and be like yeah I had some fun

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: as well and it was cool

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and reframe how we see

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: this experience, reframe how we show

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the world the cult lived experience

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's not all terrible

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in fact some of it is

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: limitations are like breed creativity

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and so being extremely limited

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to a really great point

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: the cult mind frame actually made us think

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: differently and

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: thread the needle of life in a different way

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that is really empowering

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually becoming good at public speaking

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but I was given a pretty good foundation

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: as a cult member knocking on

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: thousand doors a year

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a face rejection, I'm pretty good

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: at being told no

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: there's some good in that

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what we got, that's the impression

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_05]: the documentary gives particularly following

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't want to ruin it for anyone

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_05]: but the shining aspect of it

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_05]: it's heartbreaking

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_09]: I highly recommend the film

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and there's a couple moments

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_09]: that really stood out for me

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_09]: one was the idea of

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_09]: leaving and creating your own bible

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_09]: was one thing I really liked

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_09]: is one of your characters making his own little

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_09]: book of different excerpts

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_09]: of essays and I actually don't know

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_09]: what all the different things he pulled from

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_09]: but works that had affected him

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_09]: spiritually that were important to him

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_09]: which felt so

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_09]: I like that. Yeah, Nipina, the people were like

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_09]: oh yeah we should do that. We should do that with her

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_09]: we kind of have like with our bookshelf

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_09]: you know and with our podcast

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_09]: but not an actual

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_05]: this is our book. I have a word document

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_05]: with things I've cut and pasted over the years

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_09]: okay we'll pull it together

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to read the Nipi

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: My Bible Volume 1

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Sarah Adnan's

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bunch of like

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of its quotes

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_09]: We are working on a second book

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_09]: that kind of encompasses the whole journey of the podcast

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_09]: and all the nuggets we've learned so maybe part of it will be

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_09]: you know at the end here's our bible

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_09]: or our bible reference

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_09]: book something I don't know

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great exercise I think

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_09]: we should all do it together

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe it'll be our

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_09]: we're not starting any more survival groups

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_09]: because it just never works

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_04]: but you can do a blog

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_09]: but the other thing that really stood out to me

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_09]: and I thought of this actually after you went to sleep Nipi

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_09]: was that

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_09]: it was just the metaphor

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_09]: it made me emotional thinking about it

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_09]: but the metaphor of I loved how your people in your band

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_09]: like built their own space

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_09]: to play in

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_09]: and you did that in a slow mo

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_09]: what's it called? You speed it up

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh the time lapse

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_09]: time lapse of putting this place together

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_09]: cleaning it out and setting it up

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_09]: and I was like what a great metaphor of rebuilding yourself

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_09]: after something like this

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and creating a new space of self-expression

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_09]: and

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not sure if that was intentional or just a happy coincidence

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_09]: but that really hit me

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_09]: that your method was music

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_09]: our method is the podcast

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_09]: and podcasting for you as well

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_09]: and just how important that is

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_09]: on the other side of this journey

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_09]: to rebuild something

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_09]: that's from you

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. Thank you for highlighting that

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Was that purposeful or just happened to be?

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been advised to say that

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: anything positive people say about my movie

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I should tell them that it was totally the plan

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that had that impact

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Well it's just that the depth of your genius

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_09]: you didn't know maybe

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_09]: that's what you can write on

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. That was the depth of my genius

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: somehow intuitive

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually that's actually a really fun part of it

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was like actually that band that you see play at the opening

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: like we bookmarked

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: or bookended the film and there's this

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: a transition from the past to the present

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: in the film where you see a band play

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and for me those people

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: three of the members Eric, Cindy and Chad

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: were in high TV which is the highlighted band

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and those are the songs they're playing

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in the opening and closing

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: our high TV songs but Ryan

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and the drummer had never played with them

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: ever

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: like Ryan had known all of them growing up

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: so they were making music together and collaborating

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot throughout that time

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but I really just wanted to show have live music

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: as a piece that bookends it

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: not just have archival music

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and something about like Ryan had a

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: working studio in the library

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: showing you the books in the My Bible

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: volume one that's an actual working studio

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: everything was perfectly set up

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but like he showed me this other building

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: he had this dream he's like I want this to be my studio

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: one day

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna renovate it, I'm gonna insulate it

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna put the sound booth here and the bands are gonna be here

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: he just bought this property

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: he has this vision for his future

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's about to relaunch nuclear gopher

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the music studio and he did just relaunch it

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: so if you wanna try to find some hidden gem

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: on the internet, Ryan's nuclear gopher

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: is back

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it was just really exciting but when he was pitching that

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that was 2018 right

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and I just met Ryan for the first time

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so we met when you see him in the movie

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's him and I meeting for the first time

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that discussion is us having our first conversation

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_09]: that's so cool

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I was doing what you did before this episode

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you're like don't say it, we'll save it for the podcast

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I was doing that to Ryan, I was like shh

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you sign this paper, you get sit down in the chair

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna turn the lights sound camera

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: okay now you can talk

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but that was the second time we were meeting

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: was when we were shooting at his house

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said that vision, I was like that's it

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we're gonna kill a day of our

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: we're gonna add a day to our shooting

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're gonna clean out this shed

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: cause we're gonna turn Ryan's dream into reality today

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: for tomorrow for the shoot

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're gonna invite the band and we're all gonna play

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you guys are gonna come and you're gonna play

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're like, uh okay

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that was sort of like inspired by his vision

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: for his own future to make that space

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the space and so it was a collaborative genius

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that brought that all together

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_09]: you did intend on it, you just never know how

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_09]: that's gonna affect anybody right

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that's a perfect effect

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate that, that's beautiful

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_05]: but Sarah and I both noticed how much better

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_05]: they got, remember we were commenting

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_05]: like oh my god, you caught them

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_05]: early when they were younger

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_05]: and then as they started to

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_05]: they progressively got like oh my god

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_05]: we're like oh my god, they're good

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_05]: it was cool to watch them get

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: better over the years too

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you mentioned that there's sort of

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe this is off camera but like the film has this

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like slow character, it's like all character building

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and it sort of gets slow and then it's like

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: rocket speed of tragic losses

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and I kind of wanted to get to that

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: rocket sprint moment

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: as soon as possible in the movie

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but I felt like to care about any of this person

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: losing all these things

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_09]: you asked what stood out, the other thing for me that stood out was

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_09]: the young man who lost his brother

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Ryan

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Ryan Sutter

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_09]: talking about how when he initially got baptized

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_09]: his dad said to him well you were my son

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_09]: but now you're also my brother

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_09]: and that was sort of like weighing on him

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_09]: when he was telling his dad that he was

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_09]: leaving and didn't believe anymore

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_09]: and I was like what a terrible position to put

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_09]: kids into, to bind them

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_09]: with like the oh I could lose my

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_09]: if I step away I'm losing my brother

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_09]: like the closest connection

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_09]: you can ever have to another person

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_09]: your parent, your brother, either way

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_09]: losing your parent, losing your brother

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_09]: like his dad was saying now that you are Joe's witness

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_09]: we are bonded forever

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_09]: unless you leave

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_09]: like how terrible

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_09]: what a horrific manipulative

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_09]: disgusting practice

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_09]: in a religion

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually they do that to kids

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: they want to hook you, they want you to sign

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: basically their blood contract

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: as a teenager before you're legally

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: able to make your own adult choices for your future

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and most people get baptized

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: before they turn 18

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they're held to that contract

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: given limited information

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and access and basically

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: told a lie

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: huge, huge lie that you're like well I have to do

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: this or I'm going to get killed by Jesus

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: so you're sort of like gun to your head

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: what are you going to do as a kid without

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: really knowing how the world works yet

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually that's I don't know if you've been following the news

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but Norway just did a huge trial on the human rights

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: aspect of that

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and they delisted Joe's

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: as a religion like a month ago

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: really, that is amazing

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: so they can't even marry anyone because of this

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because of exactly that

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's not so much like

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: baptizing children or teens

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it's that if a teen does get baptized

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: make a decision as they're developing

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: about their own spirituality

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and their own personality

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but they don't believe it

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: or they make a mistake and break a rule

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they're abused emotionally

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's the abuse of children

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: emotional and spiritual abuse of children

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in that context

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that turns that now

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Jehovah's Witnesses are no longer an active religion

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: they no longer get funding

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and they can no longer even marry anyone

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: because of that and I feel like that's an amazing

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: amazing achievement

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: for a government to see the human rights violations

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: for even such a small

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: nuanced aspect of this destructive cult

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Wow, I hope America

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_09]: pays attention in Canada

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: she gets someone on the pot

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: who helps bring that legislation through

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, that would be

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that would be an interesting

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: John Froda Nielsen is the

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the name I believe

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Did you ever read Leaving the Witness

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_09]: by Amber Scora? Yes, I just

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: read it a few months ago. So good

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I have my favorite moment but what

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_09]: I haven't read it in a while so I don't remember

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_09]: maybe if you said it I remember

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_09]: but I contacted her right away through Ian

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_09]: she's not doing interviews anymore

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_09]: she's kind of moved on with her life

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_09]: but I was that, I read it

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: She was on Trevor Noah

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: what an amazing

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: book release. She was on Trevor Noah

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: for that book, I love that. I'm happy

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_09]: for her that she's moved on but yeah

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that was a really good book, what was your favorite moment?

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: She wrote something I thought

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: so I grew up with guns

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: NRA like the gun

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: side of America in rural Wisconsin

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and she wrote something

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: as a she was a missionary in China

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: for the Jehovah's Witnesses

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: she said that she started thinking

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: what if the leaders

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: ask us to

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: do the dirty work for Jesus

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not Jesus who's going to come down

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they have images of him on a horseback

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: huge mega size Jesus on a horseback with bow and arrows

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: shooting

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: meteorite bullets at earth

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and moms with kids

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: running through the streets as the enemies of God

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: getting killed by Jesus

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: she's like what if

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what if Jesus isn't going to do that

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and the leaders instruct us to take up arms

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and kill everyone

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: she's like would I do that

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and she's like the answers she was having

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in her internal like meditations on this

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: problem

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: where that she might actually do it

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: she might actually take a gun

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and start killing people, her neighbors

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and I had had

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: similar thoughts like what

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: what if, if this is all real

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're the voice of God

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're the only ones who know

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean they're constantly saying right now

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: like we might ask you to do things that

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: from a human standpoint will seem

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: illogical like they're constantly

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: putting this idea in your head

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and so to hear her to read that

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like oh my God like they can

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: really hook people like their own

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: members are considering

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the possibility of having to murder

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like that's not the kind of

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean they're considered a pacifist

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: religion but like they're also teaching

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: destruction and doomsday

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and dark sides like deep

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: deep dark side end of the world

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff so that for me

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: was like oh my God I'm so glad somebody

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: said that because I've had that thought

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and it scared me when I was a member

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_09]: wow anything else we didn't cover

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_09]: that you want people to know and where can people find

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_09]: you and what's the call to action

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the most exciting thing ever I've been working on this

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: film for years and it's and distribution

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: has been the hardest piece of the puzzle

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: not making the film would be but now it's available

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: wide public release on 2B TV

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's the best way to watch the film support

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the film share the link and if you can

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to watch the film leave a review

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and rating on IMDB that's huge for us

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_09]: absolutely will do count on that

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you so much for having me on

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and and for highlighting witness underground

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_09]: what socials do you prefer

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I'm on Facebook

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a Facebook group and a Facebook page

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: so follow that for any

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of the latest news also at the website

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: witness underground dot com for where to watch the film

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and also there's an ongoing project

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that no people don't understand like I made a movie

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but I also have been making a series

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and a podcast for years

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: also by the same name witness underground on youtube

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: so you want to support the project just watch

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the content like a filmmaker interviews

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: author interviews and it's not like what did the cult

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: leader say yesterday it's inspiring

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: with people who have made a whole new life on the outside

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: artists who've escaped a cult

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and made a creative life on the outside

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that's great and awesome

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: turn negative and positive

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and I feel like we're really aligned

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a great job with a similar

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_09]: angle I can't wait to be on yours and you can

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_09]: ask all the you get to ask all the questions

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I'm excited congratulations

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_09]: on your work congratulations getting out

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_09]: congratulations on creating a really beautiful

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_09]: moving film which also

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_09]: it's kind of fun to reminisce about the 90s

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I know I was like take me

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_05]: back take me back

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_09]: yes so till next time be

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_09]: well and God I almost look like God bless

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_09]: but I don't even believe I don't even say

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_09]: that but I just felt compelled to say but like

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_09]: you know it's something like that I saw

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_05]: us get called Jehovah's fitness

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_05]: and it was like a workout

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_05]: place for jobs

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll see if I can find it

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it was funny anyway

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_09]: thank you Scott thanks Scott

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that was great interview really appreciate you guys

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_09]: of course

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_09]: you like what you hear please do give us

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_09]: a rating a review and subscribe on iTunes

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_09]: or wherever you listen every little bit helps

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_09]: us get this cult awareness content out

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_09]: there smash that subscribe button

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_09]: you know what to do

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_09]: thank you everybody that was our chat with Scott

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Holman and we wish him nothing but the best with his

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_09]: creative projects and everything he's doing

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_09]: in the XJW community

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_05]: we've done other episodes in our culty back

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_05]: catalog and XJW movement and in fact

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_05]: we just caught up with Ian Corlett recently

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_05]: check out our Ian Corlett episode

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_05]: for more J.Dove context plus

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Mega Man's a funny guy

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_09]: he is a funny guy Mega Man back

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_09]: on the scene here in Vancouver so good to see you

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_09]: Ian so great to chat with you Scott

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_09]: and how about you listeners

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_09]: are you an XJW with a story to share

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_09]: get in touch with us on our voicemail

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_09]: line or a little bit culty.com

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_05]: talk to us tell us a story

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_05]: ask a question or share something that

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_05]: really chaps your ass about a culty situation

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_09]: in your life we also have a very special

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_09]: all voicemail episode

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_09]: coming up soon on the pod and you could be featured

[01:14:48] [SPEAKER_09]: listen it's been a

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_09]: wild and crazy summer but we've packed our microphones

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_09]: in our beach bags and don't worry

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that's me

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_09]: I packed my too

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe he's the big microphone bagger

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_08]: we've got your culty content

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_09]: covered and if you want

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_09]: even more we will be on Patreon

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_09]: with some incredible bonus

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_09]: content with X

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_09]: DOS slaves

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_09]: and nexium coaches that you've never heard

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_09]: from before in your life they've never been in

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_05]: just listening to you DOS slaves

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I know it sounds so oscillation

[01:15:21] [SPEAKER_09]: join us there on Patreon

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_09]: for some special special content

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_09]: until next time don't join a cult

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_09]: that's right babe

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_05]: bye

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_05]: thank you

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_06]: bye

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_09]: a little bit culty is a trace 120 production

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_09]: executive produced by Sarah Edmondson

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_09]: and Anthony Nippy Ames

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_09]: in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_09]: at Citizens of Sound

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and our co-creator and show chaplain

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_09]: slash producer and co-creator

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_09]: bodyguard Jess Templetardi

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_09]: and our theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant