A Radical Awakening: Dr. Shefali on Guru Culture

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should

[00:00:30] not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:52] I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony air quotes Nippy Ames and this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real

[00:01:07] cult stories told directly by the people who live through them because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way. Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:01:20] You might even already be in a cult. Oops, you better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty. Well, well, well here we are season six, Sarah. After an incredibly long season five.

[00:01:53] It was a bit long. All other seasons were 12 episodes long. I think this was like 70 episodes long. We couldn't say no. We couldn't say no. We did take a little break. As you know, I hope you enjoyed the remix slash mashup episodes with our best of nuggets

[00:02:07] and it gave us time. Yeah, prepare. I think there's even more content, maybe a couple changes in what we're doing and a lot of projects, a lot of developments on the horizon, which we're

[00:02:17] going to share with you. What's new in the cultivars before we launch into our first guest of season six, Sarah? Well, ironically Nancy Salisman is out of prison. She's in a halfway house and for health reasons. Health reasons. Meanwhile, Danny Masterson is going to prison,

[00:02:34] which is very good news for those following the fight against Scientology. Yes. A lot of controversy around that one, but I think justice is served there. Absolutely. Meanwhile, we are getting ready for our live event here in Atlanta, Georgia.

[00:02:47] And we will be also playing some of the voicemails that you all have been leaving. We've been playing them over on Patreon and then we realize that people from our audience aren't on Patreon,

[00:02:58] leaving the messages. So we're going to play some of the best of this fall. We have an incredible lineup. And our guest to start it off is not our usual type of guest. It's somebody who

[00:03:12] I've been aware of, dare I say, in the personal growth development space for over a decade. And I probably would have gotten into her work had I not been so knee deep in nexium.

[00:03:24] She actually heard my interview over on the We Can Do Hard Things podcast with Glenn Andoil and Abby Wambach and reached out to me a couple months ago about coming to speak at her event. Which serendipitously. Here in Atlanta. And for those of you who've been following

[00:03:39] the journey on Patreon, I was hesitant because she was doing this immersive weekend and there was a lot of words in the description of the retreat that were triggering for me or like little.

[00:03:49] If you're going to abuse this space, you have to mimic the tactics of people who aren't abusing the space and how they get followings and how they create a following. So our conversation

[00:03:59] gets into that a little bit. Because there is someone it's possible to be legitimate in the space. To be a thought leader. Whatever the term you want to call it.

[00:04:08] Or to be a teacher, or to be somebody who's trying to impart a message. And I express these concerns to our guest. I decided to use it as an opportunity to kind of practice what I preach. In other words,

[00:04:23] I am still somebody who wants to grow and learn. And I'm still a seeker. I still want to evolve certain things. And specifically one of the things I've been working on recently is just being

[00:04:33] a better parent. And this particular guest is a parenting expert. She wrote a book called Conscious Parenting. Great book. And in my reading of it and deciding if I wanted to do her retreat,

[00:04:46] I realized that it was bringing up a lot of things for me. Basically, in essence, in the space of personal development, there are so many red flags that aren't necessarily a red flag. It could be a red flag, but it could also be a green flag.

[00:05:00] This is going to be hard. The pre-empts, all the things that we've experienced. There are tactics that are used in good groups and also destructive groups. And they can look the same. And just because somebody, for example, has a whiteboard, like they did in Nexium,

[00:05:15] doesn't mean they're sociopath. So there are things that might look the same. How do you discern? And it also goes in line with my TEDx talk, which hopefully will be out by the

[00:05:23] time this episode launches or if not within the month for sure. And that's sort of the message that I'm posing is we are human. We are seekers. Along the path, there's going to be charlatans and there's going to be legit people. How do you tell the difference?

[00:05:37] So that's largely what our conversation is about. If you see today's guest, Dr. Shafali, on other platforms, she's usually talking about parenting, becoming more conscious in the space as a parent but also as a person. But that's not so much what our

[00:05:51] conversation is about. We riff on all different tangents. I think you'll find it enjoyable. Yeah, she's great. And also if you're not into it, just skip it. We're going to be here next week with other experts, survivors, whistleblowers, the usual. So today's guest,

[00:06:05] Dr. Shafali is the forefront industry expert in a practice she calls conscious parenting, which I've read the book and it's really good. It uses the mindfulness tools to build a sturdier and more authentic bridge between parents and their children as an Oprah endorsed clinical

[00:06:20] psychologist with a doctorate from Columbia University. Dr. Shafali has published four books, three of which are New York Times bestsellers. Obviously her teaching struck a massive nerve with parents across the globe, encouraging Dr. Shafali to open a conscious coaching

[00:06:34] institute where she trains others to practice her philosophy, which is a mix of eastern and western teachings and to help spread the message of conscious parenting to anyone who could benefit from it. I found this to be incredibly fascinating and fun and we hope that you

[00:06:47] do too. Without further ado, Dr. Shafali. Oh, welcome to a little bit culty, Dr. Shafali. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. We have so many questions and 8,000 false

[00:07:12] starts from- We've done like half the podcast already off camera. But as you know, we weekly interview people who are ex members of different groups, different experiences with course of control organizations that are a little bit to a lot culty, but you woke up out of a system.

[00:07:30] You talk a lot about being brainwashed and indoctrinated by our cultural programming. How did you wake up? And what did you wake up out of? Yeah, so, you know, I was pretty young

[00:07:40] when I had my first awakening, when I was at a very intense meditation retreat where I realized that the ways I had been thinking were really not mine. They were programmed, they were conditioned, but in meditation you're allowed that opportunity to realize,

[00:08:00] oh my goodness, these thoughts, these belief systems, they're not mine. And typically that is one of the most common epiphanies that meditators have because you create that pause between your self and your thinking. There's a space in a pause before the next thought comes, and there's a space

[00:08:19] where you get to watch your thoughts and you realize, oh my goodness, that's my culture's thought and that's my mom's thought and that's my dad's thought and that's not mine. And then it begs the

[00:08:30] next question, well then who am I? So I had my first awakening around the age of 21 and then since then I've been on this quest to help myself and help others uncover the false layers of their

[00:08:45] cultural conditioning and arrive at a more deep original authentic essence. That is a beautiful mission. Yes. And I've heard you say in some of your books, like the structure of, and we're not banging on men or whatever, but the structure of like the patriarchy. That's good. Yeah,

[00:09:02] that's you. Especially with radical awakening, which I'm almost done and I'm loving it and feels like the perfect timing for me right now is I'm like just embracing my journey back into personal development after being burned so badly. But it feels like that's such a tidal wave that's

[00:09:18] happening right now in women of our age, especially in our 40s going like, okay, I'm not just a mother and I'm not just these things. Who am I? Who is my authentic self? Can you speak a

[00:09:29] little bit about the programming specifically? I don't want to say the cult of the patriarchy sounds so ominous, but yeah. Well, the patriarchy affects everyone. It's not just women and men and perpetrators of things that we see it in extremes and religion. So where these seemingly

[00:09:44] good people are accelerating these agendas somewhat unwittingly, right? You have to build awareness around that. Right. I'm not against the patriarchy, just like I wouldn't be against the matriarchy. I think as I've talked about in the book, I'm against the toxic parts of it.

[00:10:00] Yeah. But there can be a toxic femininity too when I talk about it in my book, A Radical Awakening. So a patriarchy is just leadership. Arche is a problematic word. It could be an oligarchy.

[00:10:13] Right? So we have to be careful, but it's okay to have leadership. So if the men are in leadership, that's beautiful. If it's benevolent, if it's compassionate, if it's led by an alpha leadership that understands cooperation and understands community, it becomes toxic when

[00:10:30] the male agenda for leadership converts to domination, converts to separation, converts to exploitation, competition which can be healthy becomes exploitation, leadership becomes domination. So when things veer off-center and become annihilative of others who are weaker than them,

[00:10:51] then it becomes toxic. Right? If it's a matriarchy, it's beautiful, but it could be a toxic matriarchy. Right? So we have to be careful. It's not that we are against anyone leading whether male or

[00:11:02] female. It's how they lead. Right? So the new wave movement against the patriarchy by women or females or those who identify as such could also be toxic. It could just be reactive. It could

[00:11:15] be coming from a wounded place. So this idea that now I see so many women railing against that, oh, I'm not just a mom. I go, wait a minute. Don't knock motherhood. Motherhood is amazing. Beautiful. Yeah. And I feel women, because of their wound, flailingly reactive against what

[00:11:35] they perceive as a perpetration against them to not be pigeonholed as a mother, but then they're throwing everything out with it. Like I so don't want to be identified as a mother that now I'm

[00:11:47] reactive against it. And that's coming from a wounded place. How can we be mothers and be everything else, but also realize maybe being a mother is a whole lot too? Yes.

[00:11:58] I mean, how much can we be? Do you remember, I don't know if it was like a year or two ago and you were with some friends that were talking about being mothers and like just mothers. And I

[00:12:06] was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. The just mother thing is a reframe. And listen, by no means am I like evolved to a certain point. Like I'm guilty of probably all

[00:12:16] the things that are toxic at some point in my life for the patriarchy. But as someone who watched my wife give birth to two kids, I was blown away. And I think it was, I can't remember

[00:12:26] who it was, was two of your friends. I was like, you guys need to slow your role on that and really recognize that like, if a guy can't take that in and be somewhat amazed and like

[00:12:35] appreciate that it's certainly on him, but you guys don't have to take on the onus of feeling less feeling like you're overweight or all that things. Enjoy the shit out of it. All we need to do more. Say we don't have to do it for, for financial reasons.

[00:12:51] Don't do it just for the ego of being in the male masculine world of entrepreneurship and being a boss bait because you feel like being a mother is not enough. Right. You can't come from that place.

[00:13:03] And I hope, I hope you've never felt that. I mean, even like, even like when times and you're like, how do I look? I'm like, slow down. Enjoy it. Like this is it.

[00:13:11] I think what I resonate with specifically about that concept in the book is that there is so much of what I call societal meanings around all these roles and responsibilities and titles

[00:13:24] and the programming of where we are as women. And I'm only now just willing to look at it because, as I said earlier, I got burned in personal development before. I got burned in the literally, oh yes. Yeah. Metaphorically and literally it's spiritually.

[00:13:38] Yeah. No, it's true. You know, I got bet on the wrong horse, you know, and that whole drive is being generous to keep bet on the wrong troll. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. Troll gnome. Yeah. There we go. So it's your path.

[00:13:50] We can laugh here. We're in that stage of our healing. There's so much darkness we have to. I've been in that stage for a while. Miffy's humor is the main reason we are together and healing.

[00:14:02] You know why? Because I, and I think it's so healthy to laugh. It doesn't mean you're minimizing no trauma, but you're acknowledging that the human condition is shitty and you will meet crappy people. And that's just life. And you just have to roll with the

[00:14:16] punches as you meet the beautiful people. Yes. You're going to meet deeply wounded, troubled souls as well. Yes. And the absurdity of all of that. Yeah. So exactly. So I'm on this path of like, you know, 2005, I'm seeking, I want to understand

[00:14:31] myself, self-awareness. Like probably the only reason I didn't read Conscious Parent back then is because I was so focused on nexium. Yeah. Right. And that's the way. We thought we had all the answers. We had all the answers. We were evangelical about it. I mean to be.

[00:14:43] You were. Yeah. Yeah. We were evangelical personal development groupies, but just to say that the irony isn't lost on me, that the desire to understand our wounds and our templates and look back at our childhood and figure out like what happened there

[00:14:57] that's informing us now and how can we evolve it? It all comes from the same place. Yes. So that's the second part of this discussion is like, how do we go on a personal development

[00:15:07] or spiritual journey and not get caught up in something toxic or how do we keep clear on that path that will be dependent on another structure, another person or guru or system? And I think that is the biggest red flag, the systems that are created around,

[00:15:23] you know, what you went through. He had so many layers and so much propaganda and systems and institutionalized the self-growth process and ritualized it. So the minute you create ritual and systemic indoctrination and that there is a pathway

[00:15:42] forward, right there those are the red flags because that's counterintuitive to growth. Growth is dynamic. Growth is serendipitous. Growth is organic. It doesn't require ritual or order or organization or rules. So those are red flags. Now we know. Now it's ashes or

[00:16:04] costume or garb. Right? So I'm so against that and that's what I teach in all my books and really in conscious parenting. Don't follow a systemic indoctrinated ritualistic orderly approach to raising your children or growing yourself because that is anti-true wisdom and

[00:16:24] evolution. Evolution is dynamic. It's so spontaneous and so serendipitous and that's why it's risky. And I think that's what Nexium was against. It was against you taking your own risk. It cut you off. It severed you from your own guttural raw human potential and took that power

[00:16:44] away by so ritualizing that it dumbed you down and dimmed you to a little robot, a puppet on a conveyor belt. And pretended and professed through the opposite. And pretended it was wild

[00:16:56] and feral. You know when people come to me I ignite or I help ignite and reflect back the feral wild nature of our power and never take it away. And the surefire way to take away

[00:17:11] wild feral power is ritualization. And people don't realize it. People love rituals and there is some beautiful aspect to ritual but when we get married to ritualization you're actually dimming and dumbing the authentic in the moment aliveness of the soul. Right? If I tell you

[00:17:31] okay now sorry we have to stop this podcast I have to light 15 candles. Right? And sage. And sage. And it sounds amazing right? It sounds so beautiful but I've just taken away your power.

[00:17:43] I've taken away your participation and I've controlled the whole situation. Did you not feel what she's talking about when we really could show up every day and do? Oh yeah. Right? Every day.

[00:17:52] Now and sorry you cannot come with your own organic essence and energy. You have to wear yellow and bow to me five times. Right? It sounds like we're all doing it together and we're all in unison

[00:18:04] but I have just robbed you of your initiative, of your own self-governance. Right? So these are the ways that people slowly take away from children, take away from members. Right? If you come to

[00:18:19] my events or my courses it's wild. Like there is no... You'll be like who's in charge here because I'm not invested or I'm not teaching control. I'm teaching the opposite of control which is inner alignment and you follow that you will have the greatest control.

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[00:20:58] to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one it's great point because and I'll share with you how they normalize that in the module the very first module I believe was called rules and

[00:21:08] rituals that was the first one oh my god really rules and rituals yes very first one and they basically went through where do you see rules and rituals in society and they got the audience

[00:21:18] to participate your honor school all these things so uniforms basically what he did I think very well is he basically said hey look this is normal you've already done this before in your lives

[00:21:31] school and all the other things which how many people of us resisted school right how many people of us don't like it just have an authority issue right but there's also people that come in and

[00:21:40] go where's the structure yeah because we've been conditioned to it so seeing the rules and rituals can actually make people feel a bit more comfortable and what they don't necessarily recognize is

[00:21:49] that they feel comfortable having their power taken away from yeah but here's the thing so I'm doing this event evolve and you're coming for it people will ask me what is the timetable right like months

[00:22:00] in advance as if I know and I say to them it will be revealed like a day before if even yeah you have to get comfortable with just coming to experience the moment if I created a timetable

[00:22:13] and rules and rituals a month before that means I'm not living in the present moment I want to show up with my most recent authentic best self which will arrive a day before right but look at what they did

[00:22:26] with you right they normalized it by telling you that you're already acculturated and so for those who want the structure what they should have said is you will find the structure through your own

[00:22:36] inner alignment through your own inner listening through your own inner knowing but they were too terrified to give you that much power right now and that's what the school system does yeah that's what every system does the religious institutions the judicial institutions the marital institutions

[00:22:52] all of them have codes rules systems of conduct and if you violate them there's punishment and help and also your bad your bad that's what I mean you cannot violate these rules so look how

[00:23:03] they steal your inner empowerment well it's somewhat of a catch 22 because maybe you don't agree with this but I do think structures have a value right like for me I had a routine when I was

[00:23:16] trying to achieve something had a discipline and from that discipline it freed me up to be yes a better athlete a better speaker or whatever it is because I had some rules and some practices

[00:23:26] so there's value to it so how do you discern or how do people discern when those tools are okay if they're aligned with whatever it is you're trying to achieve and then when people

[00:23:36] just go hog wild and they want to use what is the thing that can reel them in it has to be some sort of structure right law and order or whatever it is right but when the structure is maniacally

[00:23:47] imposed it causes chaos it causes more chaos and if you give power to the external beyond listening to yourself yeah in conjunction so I talk about the balance between the form

[00:24:01] based world and the formless and there needs to be a beautiful synergy between both but sadly in our excessively materialistic power hungry world form is given too much reliance and the form comes from

[00:24:15] the outside right and that's where you will mess up so the formless which is our own inner stamp on things our own inner authority if that is not an equal or greater balance with the form

[00:24:28] of the world we will lose our way and sadly because we raise our children with such little reliance on their inner formless essence and we teach them to rely on the out of form based world we have

[00:24:42] automatons in the world who then lose their way you know all of us have lost our way because of we were indoctrinated in that system which overly relied on the external to validate us right

[00:24:53] and oftentimes they become the perpetrator of the structure yeah because they think that's the way yeah right I was really curious since you've read my story and we've chatted about this a little bit do you see certain templates and as a doctor and psychologist like you you really

[00:25:07] studied all the different things that can happen in childhood and how that creates certain ego masks and all those things you talk about in your books do you see certain patterns of what makes people more susceptible to things like nexium or a false guru or getting dependent on

[00:25:22] something externally well I think if I was to say and I always want to say that there is no predictability right which person becomes the malignant narcissist and the Keith Renears

[00:25:32] and who becomes the victim of him yeah it's hard to predict but for the ones who I think fall into his all others predatory hands I think they are the prototypical you know good girl people

[00:25:45] pleaser who overachieved in childhood got their validation from the external yeah this is my list or didn't get it who didn't learn to rely on it within themselves and became hungry for it from

[00:25:59] the external world and kept getting their accolades from the outside but didn't get it enough it's never going to be enough right because whenever it's from the outside it's always capricious and transient so you're always thirsty and you become an addict for it

[00:26:13] so the very sweet beautiful from from the inside and out caring prototypical silent obedient good girl is a danger for herself to herself because she will grow up typically to be prey to predators

[00:26:30] and the good boy too but the good boy a little bit less because the good girl is on steroids compared to the good boy right because she biologically is so nurturing anyway and caring

[00:26:43] anyway just our female biology predisposes us to to being more nurturing anyway so now we want to take care of everybody now we want to save everybody and then I mean that's what happened to you

[00:26:56] you fell in that role so easily every adjective you just described I had yes I put on my list and partly why I wanted to come to evolve because I feel like I've become aware of those things

[00:27:06] but I don't think I've evolved those things here I'm in Atlanta I'm new here I'm I'm still doing all of those things but in a different way I'm like maybe I'm more aware of it but the core wounds

[00:27:17] are still there right so we can still keep a lot of those qualities but heal the broken place that they were emerging from because I'm still all those things too I've just learned to

[00:27:30] really take care of myself in a better way before I become the good girl right so I'm still a good girl like you are I'm still a savior I'm still a people pleaser but I'm not doing it

[00:27:41] from an automatic reactive broken desperate place that I used to do it from for really most of my life till a few years ago so I can't talk too much but I'm healing that and coming from a place of

[00:27:54] strength now and that's one of the things I like about you is that you're like you're not pretending to be you know the enlightened Buddha you're like I these are some of the things

[00:28:04] I'm aware of and I'm doing it with you yeah that's another good red flag if anyone claims to be enlightened or an example far superior calls himself a guru puts themselves on a higher rank

[00:28:18] that's a sure red flag of a malignant narcissist that you hire a chair a higher chair big chairs yeah I mean I don't know whether you cross the board big chair I love Osho do you know

[00:28:30] but I also am very aware that he was probably extremely narcissistic and his big chair you know he had a big chair so people who walk around with their chair carry big chairs big costumes big garb

[00:28:43] you have to really scrutinize and run away I'm going to send you our episode on Osho because Wildwell country it turned out just scratched the surface yeah it was worse yeah I know because

[00:28:53] I had my mother lives right behind the Osho Ashra really yeah so I know all about Osho as well and most Indians do because we grew up hearing about him right his teachings had wisdom though

[00:29:04] that's the danger but yes we and you have to look at the whole person right so you can't have amazing pearls of wisdom drop out of your mouth but then you're living the most debauched life right

[00:29:16] you have to be integrated and that's the thing many people are not integrated and their ego stops them from being integrated they have the intellectual wisdom right but they haven't

[00:29:26] integrated it into the day to day which is hard to do yeah right I mean ask me I screw up every day because I'm like damn this wisdom is hard to integrate but I own it and that's the human part

[00:29:38] of our existence and we need to relate to people from a human place not from a godlike place right distinction is it seems that you want to integrate it seems that they have an intellectual

[00:29:49] understanding of what it looks like and sounds like but aren't necessarily driven to integrate they don't care to integrate it just leveraging it for the power so now it's it's serving them as

[00:29:59] opposed to them serving it correct because if you leverage it just for power right you can make all this money you can have all this glory when you try to integrate it into real life you realize

[00:30:10] with humility yeah how difficult the f this is and then you come off your own pedestal and you are going to now reveal yourself as a human they're not interested in that they're to sit in the

[00:30:21] equal chair sit in the equal chair yes and that's a true teacher but true teacher sits on the ground with their people right if you see the his holiness the Dalai Lama and there may be cobwebs in that

[00:30:34] closet too I'm not going to idolize anybody including myself or anybody but I have watched him at least enter a room and he will bow lower than everyone then everyone else bows lower than

[00:30:45] him then he's bowing lower than them and we're all on the floor but at least it's a bow off like who can bow lower but at least he tries to emulate humility and many of these teachers don't even try

[00:31:01] right so these are the signs we have to look for in a good wisdom teacher are they humble are they real are they honest are they accountable you know or is it just a power hungry trip I thought it

[00:31:13] was interesting what you said in our Instagram live the other day about how you encourage your audience not to clap when you're done and they can't they cannot because we've been indoctrinated

[00:31:23] in this guru culture of being a follower and having leaders from school right so yeah at one of my summits evolved two years ago I think I said I'm going to challenge you to not clap because it

[00:31:35] annoys the hell out of me it disturbs me it stops my flow and I don't need the accolade I don't need it yeah and when I asked them why do you do it why do we as an audience clap and they go well

[00:31:46] we feel bad for the person on stage we feel obligated then we feel distracted it's a relief from stress and anxiety they do it for themselves and and so that was you're doing it all for you

[00:31:57] because I'm here to tell you I don't need it and they still couldn't do it stop it yeah because we're indoctrinated yeah right and also to show we're good we're good we're good right we're

[00:32:08] yeah I was the learner always in the front row by the way and Nipi was in the back row yeah I was in the back row yeah napping I was you know take care of myself yeah yes that's why

[00:32:16] he didn't get promoted to the green section I gave up on that so you have a lot of the tactics of indoctrination which are rooted in or more in good principles like this is going to be hard

[00:32:28] what I'm saying is the faux guru and the person really trying to help often kind of sound a lot and have a lot of the things and we've done enough work to know that the faux guru comes in

[00:32:38] and is like oh what are they doing and just kind of taking notes and they're mimicking in a lot of ways yeah like he keeps you do this for something for what's the faux humble oh do your pressure

[00:32:50] laying forward and kind of it's interesting you know one might find that the world in this aspect is choosing my words here somewhat unpleasant you know he'd do this whole like like he was

[00:33:02] thinking and the depth of his thoughts were informing all his actions but let me ask you this when you were sitting in his presence so this is one of the signs that I think reveal whether

[00:33:12] somebody's real not a real guru because I don't believe in a guru anyway just a real human yeah is did you feel his energy like we are feeling our energy did so he was capable of showing his

[00:33:24] heart no no oh that's what I mean no well how did you rationalize not seeing or feeling his heart I was missing it yeah oh that's what they do they say something's wrong with you

[00:33:34] yeah I didn't necessarily walk around thinking someone was wrong with me I did I had just accepted that's who he was I stopped challenging it and I accepted the narrative and I didn't see

[00:33:47] behaviors that conflicted with what his persona was meaning I didn't see abuses I didn't see reactivity you also did not see his heart no no right so see that's in fact here's what I saw

[00:33:58] he had glasses on and I would see kind of dead eyes I thought I wasn't smart enough yeah and I wasn't and I wasn't suspecting I just thought okay right because I think the indoctrination

[00:34:09] happened even before he came on stage absolutely so you were already feeling looking for that and was so told that this is the superior god that you're going to meet so you you didn't even come in challenging you didn't even come in discerning no my challenges had already

[00:34:29] been dumbed and damed by asking other people that I trusted yes you've been propped up by other people yes I respected him I put him on a pedestal so when I didn't connect with him in that way

[00:34:39] I thought it was my limitation yes one of the things I got you know in trouble for is you know from my book controlling dependent I don't know how much I talked about this but the other

[00:34:47] thing was superficial yeah so my lack of depth stopped me from being able to connect to him on a deep because he's so deep I see he's so deep you can't even reach his soul yes until you have such

[00:34:59] soul yes so the reason you're not seeing his soul is because you don't have right oh my god what a trip you know but connected to that this this line of defense that he created with these other

[00:35:09] people smart that's another big for me a red flag and I'll tell you how it plays out in my life tell me so people tell me that I should have more for barrier because honestly if I won't even say it on

[00:35:21] air how many people work for me I will not even reveal that okay I'll give the illusion that I have an army okay but I really I have an army of one yeah okay now I'll tell you why yeah so people tell me

[00:35:33] you should have a defense you should you should not be so accessible but here's the thing I don't want other people being a barrier between me and yeah my people like my I don't I don't even

[00:35:44] want to say the word my audience but I say it in quotes community yeah my the word my right is problematic to me that's why even in the book for my child in all my parenting books I put my

[00:35:55] and I can't even say my child properly it's actually interesting reframe I didn't consider but yeah so the my is problematic for me so please know I say it in quotes but I can't always

[00:36:05] give the bunny ears so but people think that people in power like whatever power we have should be barricaded from the lay people by an army and that's really a sad and sick philosophy I want to be accessible I don't want the audience to be inaccessible to me

[00:36:25] meaning I want to touch my audience I don't want a barrier but the strategy that many leaders use is to have this very thick wall between them and quote-unquote their people for this precise

[00:36:40] reason so that they get indoctrinated by their second and third in command before they even reach them so then by the time they reach the real person their instincts are dulled right their own

[00:36:53] heart is dulled and barricaded by the barricade right and also it's most dangerous because you can't well you can't control because we had Eckhart Tolle on our podcast and we were like

[00:37:04] he's a friend of mine yes I know he endorsed your book and and he's randomly popped up into my life the week we left nexium yeah it's crazy story it's crazy story I'll tell you that sometime but

[00:37:14] we chatted a lot about like baby with the bathwater and toxic spirituality and stuff but one of the things I asked him is like how do you make sure you're he's not a big organization

[00:37:21] like how do you make sure that I mean humans are humans how do you keep them in check and I don't think he actually really had an answer for that if I recall but with one person you're safer

[00:37:32] I think in that way because you can keep more of an eye on things and make sure that people don't abuse their power in that structure that's attached to your name which is a real risk I

[00:37:42] would think but also when you have this barricade of protection it sounds like it's healing for the person it's protecting but it also barricades that person from being vulnerable and therefore stops their own healing so Keith as I've understood it kept himself so barricaded

[00:38:00] in this protected bubble that he himself was never to be vulnerable but also he then limits his own growth right he's stopping his growth he's controlling who's around him who challenges him

[00:38:12] but then he's not growing for me personally I want to grow I want to be vulnerable that's why I'm here I'm not here to just edify others I'm here to edify myself but we have to

[00:38:24] interact with people in a very human way to have that real life energy right and he had handlers handlers handlers and people that were obedient exactly and no one challenges no one challenges

[00:38:36] so then you don't grow yeah and that seems to be consistent with anyone who's a thought leader or even just like a culty business leader in different spaces where no one around them can

[00:38:45] even say I don't think that's a good idea it's not right and so no one's challenging them so then they so here's Keith going yeah I'm just gonna brand I'm gonna brand all the women right

[00:38:55] I'm gonna brand them I just create my own little world where I'm cozy and safe but that's completely anti-growth no that's anti-life and anti-humanity anti-humanity anti the whole message the message

[00:39:07] is to be in this together to be what your pain is my pain my heart is your heart to interconnect and these very leaders are creating separation and disconnection and amplifying the unworthiness

[00:39:20] that the people came there to eradicate in the first place they're increasing it you know yeah they're saying you are unworthy of this rank or to meet me without these specifications that's completely it's going to create more unworthiness in people right but that's the goal that's the

[00:39:36] goal that's the goal and one step further he wouldn't even give you a time it'd be like at some point in the next 24 hours you just be waiting yes oh my yeah and it could be the middle

[00:39:46] of the night you to keep your phone on well it was preference to be it's been the night because your defense is yeah yeah but this is you know what I teach in conscious parenting is so against

[00:39:55] this right and I'm telling the parent I mean forget a cult leader I'm telling even the parent they're not allowed to wake their child up in the middle of the night or keep the

[00:40:04] child waiting and the parent says to me well it's my child I get to do what I want it's my child how can you tell me not to do this and I go against parents right this has been my whole

[00:40:14] movement even if they came from your womb and blasted it and you put on 30 pounds and you don't have a uterus anymore I don't care you do not own this human being you're not giving them

[00:40:25] the bill yeah exactly you could they don't owe you anything too bad for you you decided to have the child now you own it and you will not glorify yourself through this relationship

[00:40:37] so I don't even allow a parent to do it talk about a leader right oh man I wish I wish we could just put Keith right here and you can show him but that's my my hope is that when we raise children

[00:40:50] to be empowered to speak up then they will not be prey like you and I were to our programming and now a brief message from our a little bit culty sponsors this episode is sponsored by

[00:41:05] Better Help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending

[00:41:21] literally as much time as I can outside in nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I

[00:41:30] start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get

[00:41:41] so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I

[00:41:49] don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited

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[00:42:55] hunger in our local communities at macy's you've heard from our sponsors now let's get back to a little bit culty shall we do you feel comfortable sharing what happened to you recently how you

[00:43:13] got taken advantage of sure yeah i'm not above being taken advantage of so i've been royally fucked many times by many people and taken advantage off so yeah i had a very close person

[00:43:24] on my team who you know literally stole over a million dollars from me and now there's a case against her and she's recently been arrested and it was really traumatic at first because i began

[00:43:36] to doubt myself uh you know how could you be so stupid and then people would come to me and say oh what did you do to attract this and i really have a whole way of debunking this whole

[00:43:49] idea that spirituality sometimes propagates that it's you know our attraction and something's faulty with our vibration no there was nothing faulty with my vibration i did not attract this i've learned from it because of my power to alchemy's negative into power but i did not

[00:44:06] attract it and for anyone out there who is feeling that they are a victim of some really bad eggs out there and there are bad eggs out there they need to feel empowered that they did not attract it it's not their fault there's nothing wrong with their vibration

[00:44:19] it's just that sometimes bad things happen to good people and we need to own it we can say with pride i was a victim of a really bad person's evil and it's okay there's no shame in being a victim

[00:44:33] there is shame perhaps in being an indulgent victimized person right right victim mentality victim mentality or staying in victimhood but there's no shade on you if you're a victim like speak up victim you know i was molested in my childhood i've been speaking up about it

[00:44:50] ever since because i didn't do anything wrong why am i feeling bad about it and that's how spirituality sometimes gets it wrong by making the victim feel there was something wrong in their

[00:45:00] aura or their vibration or you know no no you know let's learn from it let's grow from it but don't feel bad about being a victim there's shitty people out there you've had them i've had

[00:45:10] them and no amount of wisdom can counteract a shitty person coming in front of you right you just have to learn to deal with it people are masters at concealing and the beautiful caveat

[00:45:23] though is that their true colors will be revealed yes but sometimes after a lot of pain yeah and so this person eventually i did find out about this person well my one day just went into the back

[00:45:35] corners of my bank account and my platforms and discovered the theft which i had not gone to before i did not go all the way back you know because i just trusted her but then one fine day

[00:45:46] i said hey something's off let me go deep into the back you know coffers of my treasury and i realized that i didn't have the passwords and things were you know concealed for me and within

[00:45:59] 15 hours i understood that she had been stealing from me so then i got really upset with myself oh my goodness it took you three years to do this why didn't you do it sooner well because

[00:46:10] this person was really good at concealing and i trusted i was a good person who trusted so i had compassion for myself and i want people listening and for people like you know who've had experiences like you not to berate themselves because that's just a whole other

[00:46:24] cycle of shame right no we need to go i was really really good i was really kind i was really compassionate really trusting and yeah i got stolen from okay it's just money

[00:46:37] now i will recover and i will help others not to make the same mistakes i made i will try to teach them to look out for the red flags but i went back to all my red flags man even if i

[00:46:46] had paid attention to every red flag she was lazy she didn't work hard enough she wasn't honest i found her lying about this and that but i had so much compassion for her

[00:46:56] that even then i could have never ever imagined the depth right off the of the abuse that she financially inflicted on me so i have to forgive myself for that absolutely well you brought up

[00:47:08] you brought up a good point something i wanted to ask you is as one of the tenets of spirituality that i feel gets warped in the wrong hands which is this concept of personal responsibility yeah

[00:47:17] when you have let's say we're having a struggle and i could like you know blame him want him to be different or i could look okay well this this upset is within me this is from my

[00:47:26] programming this is my template my expectations my parents divorce whatever you want to look at right yeah there's such a beauty and personal responsibility and looking within and the inquiry and then that in the hands of somebody like Keith or somebody wants to abuse

[00:47:40] it protects them from bad behavior yeah i'll speak to that there is no personal responsibility without also the space to acknowledge your personal pain so for example if a woman comes to me and she's 30 years old and she's upset about her parents divorcing when she was six

[00:48:02] as a therapist i will tell her okay you have to now take personal responsibility for your own life right now you're 30 years old we have to move on and i want to hear about your pain right so

[00:48:13] what they did with you is they just dumped it all back on you but they didn't hear right where you were upset where you were angry where you had feelings about them right even to this day if my

[00:48:26] daughter brings up pain around our my divorce from her father i will say come on now we have to move on and i'm so sorry that i caused your pain so nowhere did they take ever personal responsibility

[00:48:40] for the pain that they caused you or that you had misgivings there was no space for you to show up in your confusion in your doubt in your misgivings there was no space for that to be validated

[00:48:51] so that's not personal responsibility that's victim blaming yeah just victim blaming like no you you have a problem it's your problem yeah there's no integrity and not only that my reaction to what

[00:49:02] happened was the very reason why dos needed to exist yeah so they've made it took at the next level not only could they not admit that they had made a mistake yeah and it hurt me yeah but

[00:49:13] they doubled down they were like and this is why we need a woman's movement yes any any objection to the narrative becomes evidence of the need for their abuse yeah and what i try to encourage so

[00:49:25] at my summit so in my courses is dissidence right speak up tell me that you don't like this tell me where it's poking you tell me where this is rubbing you wrong and let's have a real healthy

[00:49:36] debate about this yeah live at one of my last evolves a woman came to me in the break and she told me i think she even called me a bitch or she said i was acting like one okay but you know i welcome it

[00:49:49] yeah and she said i flew all the way from australia i want my money back this is awful i i don't agree with what you've been teaching and i'm having a real problem so what i did is i called her on stage

[00:50:01] and right in front of everyone i made her repeat what she said to me privately yeah out in the open and i did a whole process with her and of course we then find out that she her boyfriend had broken

[00:50:12] up with her she was really feeling disenfranchised she was taking it out on me because i wasn't saying things that were you know coddling her i was pushing her to look at her own self

[00:50:22] but i did it in front of everybody and she was angry with me and i said i will give you back all the money but come on stage and talk it out in an honest open way in front of everybody

[00:50:34] and it was serendipitous it was in the moment people thought i had staged it because she was at the end of it you know on the floor in a heap totally realizing how she had projected on me

[00:50:44] she thought i was the bad mother and all her mother issues and her boyfriend leaving her her abandonment issues were coming up but i showed people that a i wasn't afraid when

[00:50:54] people are upset with me i know it's not about me and i did not blame her we went through a process together where she authentically wrestled with her issues on stage so this is what i do when people

[00:51:05] are upset with me i go okay come let's talk about it in front of everybody you want to be upset with me let's talk about it in front of everybody i'm not afraid yeah tell me how you

[00:51:13] don't like my teachings i see why my teachings can be provocative but i'm not hiding from people right you're transparent you're transparent that's good so these are all the ways we get to know

[00:51:23] whether somebody is real or somebody's just hiding behind the role right people often ask me you know how do you stay grounded and i say it's so easy to stay grounded and the way to stay grounded

[00:51:35] it's so easy how does one not stay grounded i'm i'm curious why people don't stay grounded but the reason why people don't stay grounded is because they have confused the function they play

[00:51:46] in people's lives and the role they play with who they are so i'm very clear i am a little bit of dr schifali but i'm a whole lot of schifali right and i'm very clear that when people come to a

[00:51:59] summit or people take my courses they are seeing dr schifali which means they are having their own relationship with dr schifali which has nothing to do with me so they can love dr schifali but it's not me they're loving they're loving the role i'm playing in their lives

[00:52:14] but they're projecting a whole lot on that right role that has nothing to do with me so but if they upset with dr schifali i want to participate i want to understand i want to have compassion

[00:52:25] it's not like i just absolve myself of responsibility but i also don't get carried away with the adulation that dr schifali gets right schifali is not getting the adulation yeah dr schifali is getting the adulation and there's a very clear although it's the same person

[00:52:40] i'm very clear that i'm playing a role in people's lives and i cannot abuse it but i also cannot get heady with it and i cannot run with it but also when they demonize dr schifali i don't need to

[00:52:53] go into the goddess of depression you don't have to agree with it either there's a healthy relationship there that's good one of the things to reframe the victim shame thing is you know

[00:53:03] there's a lot of shame when came out of like embarrassed felt stupid about it there was a lot of questions like how do you let that happen to you right my response since we've done this is

[00:53:15] it didn't happen to us we happened to Keith yes yes right yes he was abusing the whole time and he finally met a wall of people who did who actually are good yes and did the right thing right and

[00:53:27] that's why he's sitting in a jail cell for 120 years and it's okay if it takes time yeah it's okay things take time it's okay you took time to let it percolate and let it faster and you did get

[00:53:39] taken advantage of it's okay but then you came out on the right side i did too i took three years to figure out this person but then guess what who's the winner now who's the loser right so it's okay

[00:53:52] if things take time and even in terms of winning and losing i just feel like good one yes in terms of like you know i was 27 when i signed up i think you were 27 as well i sought out to do a good

[00:54:03] thing yes and i ended up doing a good yes exactly it takes time but now i designed it and now i thought it was gonna go but but not only that you are now alchemizing it even more yes you're

[00:54:14] talking about it here you know how many people you're helping right so i'm going to make good out of that betrayal that happened to me as well i'm going to help other people yeah but we

[00:54:23] cannot live our lives pretending that if we're just good enough nothing bad will happen to us that's dangerous right that's really it's baloney and dangerous because then when bad things happen

[00:54:36] we begin to say oh maybe i'm not a good person no that has nothing to do with how good a person you are life happens and in fact let more bad people come into my life it's okay

[00:54:47] i will alchemize it and i will make something powerful out of it we cannot cocoon ourselves from quote-unquote bad people totally there's a great quotation i read recently play dough it was like the consequences for not getting involved with politics or whatever politicians whatever is you

[00:55:04] end up being ruled by inferior people yes now i'm not saying get involved with politics but i think it's a great metaphor for get involved with certain things it's okay because if you don't

[00:55:14] those bad minds were motivated to do badly we'll end up be making decisions that affect you exactly and i always say better me good it happened to me right because i can handle it

[00:55:23] and i will take this person out yeah and it's okay to be attracted even attracted to a keith renier or quote-unquote bad person because ultimately we will figure it out yeah it's okay how it started

[00:55:36] it's about how it ends yeah and it's okay if the process is murky and mucky it's how what came out of it what is the outcome of all of it how did we alchemize it how did we metabolize it

[00:55:47] for the greater good look what we get to do now yeah look how cool it is yes yes and and i got to we're doing what we set out to do yes and i got to meet you and now you're coming to evolve i mean

[00:55:58] all of this because of the work you're doing in the aftermath of one of the biggest traumas of your life it's a gift yes okay we make an action plan for evolve if i get triggered do you have

[00:56:08] whiteboards do you use whiteboards no okay guys i use i you don't even i barely use power points people have to beg me to use sashes do you use words i'm just gonna pre-empt it i'm just gonna get them

[00:56:18] all out right here how big is the chair there's no i stand the whole time yeah for years i didn't even put it on power point because i said to myself if people don't feel it and don't walk away with

[00:56:30] a resonance that's visceral they don't need to get it cerebrally no but now i sometimes use power points but my it's all about inner work and growth but it's been so bastardized that i feel embarrassed sometimes to say i'm a wisdom teacher i can't stand those words myself

[00:56:47] i thought leader thought leader because it's been bastardized that's the casualty to all these guys doing that is that is that someone can always say oh you're like this you're like that and

[00:56:57] it just makes it harder for people who are authentic how do you go on a personal development journey how do you if you've been duped how do you separate the baby with the bathwater

[00:57:05] and not throw it all out because we spent 12 years there i didn't want to do that and so much of what we learned was good and i swear he stole from your books and ecard and power versus force and

[00:57:15] probably seven habits of highly effective people like the basics power versus force he took literal verbatim throw that out yeah but you take the teaching yeah dump the teacher yeah that's always the rule you always dump the teacher even when people come to me i say dump me

[00:57:31] keep the teaching don't take me home with you right we can't take you out no you cannot do you take the words that resonate that's it and dump the rest okay so your 12 years were not

[00:57:44] in vain no the teachings are delicious i love osho's teachings but osho himself i have issue with right but i adore his teachings and i can do both right and this is the art of a higher

[00:57:57] transcendent evolved space of living it's okay to see the shadow in people but take what you need out of them and dump the rest okay as your 12 years were not in vain i agree beautiful things

[00:58:09] i agree we had lots of conversations with a lot of intelligent people yes volumes of conversations we got to understand people impulses psychology dynamics that inform what we're doing now yes undoubtedly and even if all the 12 years just got you to a place of realizing all the

[00:58:25] things you don't like yeah that's huge yeah so it's okay we never look at anything that happened to us i don't like all the work you don't like alvin in york there you go see i don't like sashes

[00:58:38] you don't like roofs and rituals you don't like big chairs see so much information and now we're learning to you know trust our gut again which is another yes you know we know we screwed it around

[00:58:47] this issue a little bit in the in the live that we did is a lot of people have been asking like okay we have this feeling that's i'm uncomfortable you always need to go through discomfort to grow

[00:58:57] how do you know i know when it's like a trigger that points to something versus thing get the fuck out of here so you test it out yeah you test it to see is this just discomfort or is this real

[00:59:09] icky red flags yeah you know because many people don't like me too right away and i'm like what the hell did i do you know so then i know it's like okay you need to go work on yourself you're

[00:59:19] just projecting a whole lot onto me because you think i'm i look at this certain way so i definitely can't be that because of how i look or how i sound or i'm from india people have solid

[00:59:30] projections against me which is which are unfair but i tell them go test me test me go listen to me don't just dump me out test me out and then if after 40 hours of listening to me you still think

[00:59:43] i'm icky and yucky then you shouldn't be around me then i'm a danger to you yeah because it's not about me it's about the teachings maybe you're just not vibing with the teachings

[00:59:52] right now but if you just all out as soon as you see me say oh i think shefali is a manipulative bitch that's not fair yeah i'm like hey what did i do but people will do that like you know i saw her

[01:00:02] one time and i decided she was a bitch because of how i look how did you decide that you know some people are some people are a scratch looking for an itch yeah yeah so then i tell people

[01:00:13] you know sit with it test it out that's why i give so much free content to test it out for free don't just dump me out and then decide and there's a difference between you know a little bit

[01:00:23] of suspicion to all out ick there's a big spec from there so good to be suspicious test it out but let's also adapt maybe give this person a chance too you know give me a chance

[01:00:36] so this podcast is free on our on our platforms people will listen to it if they decide they're like hey we want to do more want to come see dr shefali in atlanta live and

[01:00:45] dip her toes back into personal development what can they expect out of that yeah so i only do one in person event myself although i go from any talks all around the world i only have one signature

[01:00:57] event that i do once a year and i'm even thinking of doing it only once every two years but this year it's in three weeks in atlanta sarah edmondson is going to be on the stage with me

[01:01:09] and we're so excited and she's going to be book signing so it's my in person event it's a weekend retreat i call it my master class it's live i mean there's nothing like it i grow so much from it

[01:01:21] it's fun it's raunchy it's it's x-rated at times and it's very provocative so if people want to learn from me and sarah and come meet us in person they can join us at evolve they can go

[01:01:33] to my website get all the details and i'm giving listeners a 20 discount with the code evolve 20 amazing yeah and there's two other people that are going to be there too we're excited about

[01:01:43] the first lady of canada sofi gregor trudeau oh and the most amazing alina brauer who's a mystic yoga teacher spiritual wisdom giver i can't wait to meet her too amazing somebody sent me one

[01:01:57] of her spoken words beyond on spotify when i was like in the worst of my worst in the healing and it's like it became a mantra for me now alina is a teacher yeah like barnon and doesn't make any

[01:02:09] bones about being a guru and she's just a teacher yeah and uh she's so far yeah she's just a true wisdom giver and that's what we are and you'll meet my beautiful my in quotes community

[01:02:26] they're not mine by any means and they're just beautiful people who've who've understood consciousness and uh propagators of conscious parenting even if they're not parents so this is a weekend for parents non-parents single couple polygamous well all kinds of people amazing bring the flag yes

[01:02:44] it's over columbus weekend i have limited scholarships if people want to fly they can write to my office i have some scholarships what's your office email office at drtraffali.com dr for dr shifani i love that you offer that because i think that's important

[01:02:59] yeah to make it accessible and if people are living under a rock work and they find you in social media i think my handle is at dr spelt out doc to our shifali okay i knew lots of

[01:03:10] great videos and little snippets so much free content during coven i did every day i did a talk called viral wisdom i did 72 of those and i did 179 free meditations amazing youtube channel

[01:03:23] i'm gonna find those and i'll just put this up for the camera nippy's reading this the british version oh that's a british version yes it's okay it's okay we like the british it's okay we haven't started

[01:03:32] i actually am british by the way that's the american family i have five books and then radical awakening but i also have a superpowered i have out of control oh my goodness i have the parenting

[01:03:43] map parenting map i'm almost done yeah i'll bring i'll be i'll be caught up by the time we get to evolve yes lots of books thank you so much for your time this has been such a delay thank you

[01:03:53] for listening and thank you for having me here we'll see you in a couple weeks yes good luck at the event everybody like what you hear do you give us a rating review and subscribe on itunes every little bit

[01:04:05] helps us get this cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you know you want to so we were recording in a studio bravo ocean in atlanta thanks for hosting us by the way guys

[01:04:18] and as soon as we were done the most horrendous like literally we ended and the rain started the rains they were a comment sarah they and it rained hard we wouldn't have been able to record

[01:04:27] in that in that rain because it was so loud on the roof no it even lightning struck them in some of our questions too we pressed on didn't we we did we pressed on because we're professional

[01:04:35] so we will include the code should you feel inspired to come to evolve if you're also like i will never attend a retreat ever again like i was a few years ago i totally get that and no

[01:04:48] pressure this is not a sign up now and get a 20 discount to take the situation we don't have that power we'll never do that again love you all enjoy that one opener for season six yeah i'd love to hear

[01:04:58] how people relate to this topic if you've been in a personal development program of any kind will you ever attend a seminar again are you totally allergic to it do you feel like there's space

[01:05:09] for such teachers who are the people that you like to learn from again we will never follow anyone ever again what questions did we not ask what do we not ask tell us all right make your

[01:05:20] comments in the instagram handle a little bit culty see you there and see you next week bye bye bye for now now a little bit culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by sarah edmondson and

[01:05:49] anthony nippy aims in collaboration with producer will rutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator just temple tardy our writing and research is by holly azadra and matias rosenswig and our theme song cultivated is by the artist john bryant in nigel aslan