Big Phoenix Energy: Actor, Activist & Badass Evan Rachel Wood (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass, North.

[00:00:04] North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:14] North we're easy to get to, meets worlds away.

[00:00:20] Go north to Snow Basin.

[00:00:24] Now on The Icon Pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts

[00:00:31] and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] That's true.

[00:00:36] Any of the fire content provided by our guest bloggers, sponsors or authors

[00:00:40] are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club,

[00:00:44] organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] Unless you're abusing people then I have a problem maligning you.

[00:00:50] Also we're not doctors, psychologists or wizards.

[00:00:53] We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly, informative podcast

[00:00:57] that helps you understand culty shit.

[00:01:06] Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:10] And I'm Anthony Ames, A.K.A. Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to

[00:01:15] A Little Bit Culty, A.K.A. ALBC.

[00:01:18] A podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:22] We've been there and back again.

[00:01:24] A little about us.

[00:01:25] True story, we met and fell in love in a cult.

[00:01:28] And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.

[00:01:31] The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow.

[00:01:34] Now in its second season.

[00:01:36] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, SCART.

[00:01:39] The true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:43] Look at us.

[00:01:44] Couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night

[00:01:47] where we interview experts and advocates

[00:01:49] and things like cult awareness and mind control.

[00:01:52] Wait, wait. This does not count toward date night, babe.

[00:01:54] We got to schedule that. That's separate.

[00:01:56] So it's two days? We got to have a hangover?

[00:01:58] We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of NXIVM.

[00:02:02] Still on that journey.

[00:02:03] And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:07] We know all too well that culty things happen.

[00:02:09] It happens to people every day across every walk of life.

[00:02:13] So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating

[00:02:16] to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:19] This stuff really is everywhere.

[00:02:21] The cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we.

[00:02:24] Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie,

[00:02:27] serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms.

[00:02:31] Learn more at alittlebitculti.com.

[00:02:44] And we're back.

[00:02:51] We are back in a new country.

[00:02:53] New studio.

[00:02:54] New studio, new lives.

[00:02:56] Yeah.

[00:02:57] And new do.

[00:02:58] Yeah. You're almost American.

[00:02:59] I've been watching you.

[00:03:00] I've been seeing how you've been integrating.

[00:03:02] Well, you know, you're not speaking Canadian anymore.

[00:03:05] It's taken some time.

[00:03:07] You know, I have to say I kind of came here kicking and screaming,

[00:03:09] but I'm enjoying myself so far.

[00:03:11] You're saying y'all.

[00:03:12] I said y'all.

[00:03:13] I mean saying you guys.

[00:03:15] Seriously.

[00:03:16] It just sounds still thing.

[00:03:17] Plus it's gender misappropriating, isn't it?

[00:03:19] All that stuff.

[00:03:20] Y'all is all inclusive.

[00:03:21] Yeah. You can't mess with that.

[00:03:23] No, you can't say no to y'all.

[00:03:25] Yeah, they're not coming for you for that one.

[00:03:27] Okay, y'all.

[00:03:28] All right.

[00:03:29] Let's get to it.

[00:03:30] Let's do it.

[00:03:31] Welcome to Atlanta.

[00:03:32] We deliberated who we're going to start with here.

[00:03:34] Evan Rachel Wood.

[00:03:35] It is a special one for me.

[00:03:37] I think y'all will see why.

[00:03:39] Our guest today withheld her alleged abusers name

[00:03:42] for nearly 16 years.

[00:03:44] Actor and activist Evan Rachel Wood has said on several occasions

[00:03:47] in recent interviews that she fully intended to go to her grave

[00:03:51] for their horrifying story of vicious sexual, physical,

[00:03:54] and emotional abuse including alleged anti-Semitic threats.

[00:03:57] But in February of 2021, Evan took to Instagram

[00:04:00] and publicly identified the alleged perpetrator,

[00:04:03] the man that she met when she was just an 18-year-old

[00:04:06] up-and-coming Hollywood starlet.

[00:04:08] And he was a much older shock rocker

[00:04:10] with a reputation for dark stuff.

[00:04:13] A dark kind of creative genius.

[00:04:15] Yeah. Air quotes.

[00:04:16] Air quotes.

[00:04:17] Creative genius.

[00:04:18] There's a lot of air quotes in this room right now.

[00:04:19] Yeah.

[00:04:20] Speaking Marilyn Manson's name, A.K.A. Brian Warner,

[00:04:23] in this context Evan unleashed, well, a total shitstorm.

[00:04:26] Multiple women have since come forward with accusations

[00:04:29] of physical and sexual abuse.

[00:04:31] And Marilyn Manson, A.K.A. Brian Warner, A.K.A. your name for him is?

[00:04:35] Captain Fucknugget.

[00:04:36] Has been clobbered by several lawsuits,

[00:04:38] condemned by a few notable band members and rodies,

[00:04:41] and dropped by his record label.

[00:04:43] And it's important to note for our listeners

[00:04:45] and our lawyers that Marilyn Manson has repeatedly denied

[00:04:48] allegations and recently sued Evan for defamation

[00:04:51] over the accusations.

[00:04:52] Hmm, sound familiar.

[00:04:53] Claiming it is all part of an elaborate quote, unquote,

[00:04:56] organized attack.

[00:04:57] Hmm, sounding even more familiar.

[00:04:59] There.

[00:05:00] We said that Marilyn Manson categorically denies all of it.

[00:05:03] It is all alleged.

[00:05:04] Alleged, alleged, allegedly,

[00:05:06] ledgerific, alleged do, alleged.

[00:05:08] Alleged.

[00:05:09] That said, the temperature of the whole situation

[00:05:11] went up several degrees again earlier this year

[00:05:13] with the release of the HBO Max miniseries,

[00:05:15] Phoenix Rising.

[00:05:16] Oh, it's so good.

[00:05:17] Please watch it.

[00:05:18] Directed by Oscar-nominated filmmaker Amy Berg,

[00:05:21] Phoenix Rising chronicles Evan's journey

[00:05:23] from a 13-year-old child actor to emerging star

[00:05:26] coming of age in the glare of the Hollywood spotlight

[00:05:29] to her nearly five-year ordeal as Marilyn Manson's

[00:05:32] girlfriend to the aftermath of leaving him.

[00:05:35] It also shows what it can look like to transform trauma

[00:05:38] into civic action.

[00:05:39] Evan is on a mission to raise awareness of barriers

[00:05:41] that survivors of domestic violence face

[00:05:43] when it comes to finding healing,

[00:05:45] and she's working to shape public policy

[00:05:47] so that anyone facing this kind of abuse

[00:05:49] can get a fair shake in our shaky justice system.

[00:05:51] In fact, Evan helped co-write the bill,

[00:05:54] The Phoenix Act, which was unanimously passed

[00:05:56] and signed into law in January 2020

[00:05:59] and extends the statute of limitations

[00:06:01] for domestic violence in California.

[00:06:03] Look, the Phoenix Rising docu-series

[00:06:05] is beautifully made and also truthfully

[00:06:08] incredibly hard to watch.

[00:06:09] For us, it was also familiar terrain.

[00:06:11] The twisted world Evan escaped from

[00:06:13] was a place where grooming, love bombing

[00:06:15] and narcissistic abuse were the norm.

[00:06:17] Not to mention that it's all the hands

[00:06:19] of a so-called misunderstood genius

[00:06:21] who reminds us of a certain culty fuc-wad

[00:06:24] who's currently serving hashtag 120 years.

[00:06:27] In five years probation.

[00:06:28] Reminder, we are a personal storytelling platform

[00:06:31] for survivors and experts.

[00:06:32] We're not judge and jury.

[00:06:34] We really try not to speak in absolutes.

[00:06:37] We try to condemn behaviors, not individuals.

[00:06:40] And we certainly believe that Marilyn Manson

[00:06:42] deserves the same due process

[00:06:44] as any other alleged abuser.

[00:06:46] That said, we're going to make it clear right up front

[00:06:48] with our team Evan.

[00:06:49] She's calling out patterns of abuse

[00:06:51] and calling foul and abusive systems

[00:06:53] that enable this kind of behavior to exist

[00:06:55] at her own expense

[00:06:56] and providing an open book

[00:06:58] to some of her life's darkest moments.

[00:07:00] And for what? Does she get anything out of this?

[00:07:02] She's someone who's had a really solid,

[00:07:04] well-respected acting career

[00:07:05] and has the ability to go make a very hardy paycheck

[00:07:08] by putting on a Westworld costume

[00:07:10] and having to have Android.

[00:07:11] As ways to make money go, it's a pretty plum gig.

[00:07:13] So why on earth would she go through the ordeal

[00:07:16] and sheer effort of all this advocacy

[00:07:18] and whistleblowing when it comes to the real threat

[00:07:20] of legal, physical, and emotional retaliation

[00:07:23] and as a mom of a young child also

[00:07:26] when she's got nothing to gain from this?

[00:07:28] Well, she stands to gain a bunch of

[00:07:30] Coltie Marilyn Manson fans trolling her,

[00:07:32] various naysayers,

[00:07:33] and all kinds of publicly sanctioned gaslighting

[00:07:36] which we've already experienced a little bit of

[00:07:38] with our couple videos that we've posted on her.

[00:07:40] I was shocked to see the organized attempt

[00:07:43] of the MM trolls trying to tell us how,

[00:07:46] sorry, Evan is the abuser here?

[00:07:49] Evan's lying?

[00:07:50] Yeah, well this is what it looks like, right?

[00:07:52] So it's a coordinated effort to discredit

[00:07:54] the person and never address the behaviors.

[00:07:56] Yeah, template seriously.

[00:07:58] It takes real guts to do what she's doing

[00:08:00] and we're beyond excited to have her

[00:08:02] on our little podcast.

[00:08:04] It's not easy listening, that's for sure.

[00:08:06] Conversations like the one you're about to hear

[00:08:08] can be traumatizing for abused survivors.

[00:08:10] So please listen safely to this episode

[00:08:12] and if you or anyone you know needs support,

[00:08:14] you can reach out to the Rape,

[00:08:16] Abuse, and Incest National Network, RAINN.

[00:08:19] This organization provides free,

[00:08:21] confidential support to sexual assault victims.

[00:08:24] Call RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline

[00:08:26] 1-800-656-HOPE

[00:08:29] or visit the website for more information.

[00:08:31] We've put this info in our show notes

[00:08:33] and please do reach out to the experts

[00:08:35] as much as we love everyone reaching out to us

[00:08:37] and we try to respond to everybody.

[00:08:39] We are not the experts, especially in this field.

[00:08:41] So all that said, let's get on with it, shall we?

[00:08:43] Yes.

[00:08:44] Here's our season premiere, our chat with the brave,

[00:08:46] ass-kicking, amazing Evan Rachel Woods.

[00:08:49] Here we are and this is one of the gifts

[00:09:05] we've been in touch for I think over a year now

[00:09:07] and although we haven't seen each other like this,

[00:09:10] it means a lot to me that you're here

[00:09:13] and that we're connecting in this way.

[00:09:15] So welcome, welcome to a little bit culty

[00:09:17] and how are you?

[00:09:19] How are you doing and how is your heart?

[00:09:21] You know, taking it sort of moment by moment

[00:09:24] and taking the good moments

[00:09:27] and holding them close

[00:09:29] because I know there will be other waves.

[00:09:32] I think I read a quote recently that's,

[00:09:34] like I posted it on my social media

[00:09:36] and it was about getting through to the light

[00:09:38] at the end of the tunnel

[00:09:39] but what's at the end of the tunnel

[00:09:41] and what comes after the light

[00:09:43] and it's, well there's going to be another tunnel

[00:09:45] but there's also going to be another light

[00:09:47] and that's sort of the journey I'm on right now.

[00:09:50] I think lots of tunnels but a lot of light,

[00:09:52] you know in between and just kind of riding the waves.

[00:09:55] Such a great metaphor.

[00:09:56] I feel you and sometimes I forget

[00:09:58] when I'm back in a tunnel, you know

[00:10:00] and then someone reminds me, usually Nippy,

[00:10:02] like there'll be more light.

[00:10:04] Don't you find that once you've been through

[00:10:06] something like this

[00:10:07] that it's almost a template for your own resilience

[00:10:10] for the future, like it just keeps building?

[00:10:12] Absolutely.

[00:10:13] Someone was speaking to me the other day

[00:10:15] about sort of the flip side to PTSD

[00:10:19] and it's post-traumatic resilience

[00:10:22] and I was like, oh yeah, that's a thing.

[00:10:25] That's absolutely a real thing

[00:10:26] and so yes you have post-traumatic stress

[00:10:28] but you also are more equipped

[00:10:31] to handle insane situations

[00:10:34] or trauma or hardships or you know

[00:10:36] you get very centered and focused

[00:10:38] in the midst of chaos

[00:10:40] that is very true.

[00:10:41] Well you know what you're made of.

[00:10:42] Yeah, I'm able to really

[00:10:45] even though there could be a hurricane around me

[00:10:48] I do feel very calm in the center

[00:10:50] and that's something that I didn't use to have

[00:10:53] until coming forward

[00:10:55] and after this whole experience

[00:10:56] it's sort of like okay well at this point

[00:10:59] whatever is happening around me

[00:11:01] I know that you know at the core I'm okay.

[00:11:03] So it's been five months

[00:11:05] since Phoenix Rising came out

[00:11:07] how are you in that process?

[00:11:08] It's interesting. I don't know if you guys

[00:11:10] experienced this but I've noticed that

[00:11:13] the people closest to me are still terrified to watch it

[00:11:16] and so a lot of my close friends

[00:11:19] and people that I love still haven't seen it

[00:11:22] so I haven't really been able to have a dialogue with them yet

[00:11:25] and I get it, you got to do it in your own time

[00:11:27] because it can be triggering

[00:11:29] and you have to be in the right head space

[00:11:31] but it is weird to think

[00:11:33] there's this thing floating around

[00:11:35] some of your closest, you know, your close circle

[00:11:37] still kind of hasn't gone there yet

[00:11:39] but yes people are still reaching out

[00:11:42] people are still finding it

[00:11:44] survivors are reaching out

[00:11:46] you go to the grocery store

[00:11:47] you go to an appointment

[00:11:48] and suddenly survivors are everywhere

[00:11:51] as you know

[00:11:53] and you realize just

[00:11:55] I already knew that it was so rampant

[00:11:57] and that it was so common

[00:11:58] but you really do see them everywhere they pop up

[00:12:01] When you say you already knew that it was rampant

[00:12:04] rampant like in your industry, the world

[00:12:07] or because it was a shock to me to see

[00:12:09] like after we went through

[00:12:10] how many people were there

[00:12:11] how much of it was out there

[00:12:14] and still is to this day

[00:12:16] yeah it's like you know that there's

[00:12:18] evil things in the world

[00:12:20] but until you've really come across it

[00:12:22] and until you've been put into a system

[00:12:24] that enables it

[00:12:26] I know I didn't fully understand at all

[00:12:29] you know there's problems

[00:12:31] but you don't fully understand the scope

[00:12:33] until you're going through it

[00:12:35] and then it's oh this is so much worse

[00:12:37] than I thought it would

[00:12:38] Well not anymore but before

[00:12:39] it's like I've said this many times before

[00:12:42] you don't know that you're necessary

[00:12:43] in the clutches of say evil

[00:12:45] whatever word you're the dark forces

[00:12:47] until you're out of it

[00:12:48] and the light shows up

[00:12:49] and then you can actually go back

[00:12:50] and go holy shit

[00:12:52] and then you

[00:12:53] then you're never

[00:12:54] it's never the same

[00:12:55] because you can kind of see it

[00:12:56] you can feel it

[00:12:57] you can

[00:12:58] That's part of the trauma

[00:12:59] of being in a cult

[00:13:01] or in a cult dynamic

[00:13:03] is you can't see it

[00:13:05] when you're in it

[00:13:06] so not only do you have to process

[00:13:08] like the sort of the shame

[00:13:09] of what happened to you

[00:13:10] but also the shame of

[00:13:12] what you feel like

[00:13:13] you participated in

[00:13:14] even though you didn't know

[00:13:15] what you were participating in

[00:13:16] and it's like

[00:13:17] you have to reconcile these two

[00:13:19] sides

[00:13:20] Totally

[00:13:21] I think that's why most people

[00:13:22] don't speak up

[00:13:23] when they recognize

[00:13:24] they've been a part of something

[00:13:26] like either of these things

[00:13:27] or both of the

[00:13:28] the same thing really

[00:13:29] different content

[00:13:31] same process of abuse and manipulation

[00:13:33] is that people are so ashamed

[00:13:35] that they

[00:13:36] ignored their gut

[00:13:37] or didn't see the red flags

[00:13:39] or didn't you know

[00:13:40] the worst question

[00:13:41] I know we probably both hate

[00:13:42] is why didn't you leave sooner

[00:13:44] right like could that

[00:13:45] just that societal

[00:13:47] misunderstanding is like

[00:13:49] why would you tell everybody

[00:13:50] that happens

[00:13:51] so the fact that you have

[00:13:52] is such a gift to people

[00:13:54] and I'm wondering

[00:13:55] is it different for you

[00:13:56] when people

[00:13:57] acknowledge you publicly

[00:13:59] or when they run into

[00:14:00] a grocery store

[00:14:01] and acknowledge what you did as

[00:14:03] you know you as you

[00:14:04] versus you as an actor

[00:14:05] Absolutely

[00:14:06] Yeah

[00:14:07] and it's something that I

[00:14:09] leave space for

[00:14:11] you know people will come up

[00:14:12] and just start sobbing

[00:14:13] you know and

[00:14:14] it's not a burden to me

[00:14:16] because

[00:14:17] you know you understand

[00:14:18] what it's like to be there

[00:14:20] and the empathy

[00:14:21] is so

[00:14:22] is so

[00:14:23] strong

[00:14:24] and yeah

[00:14:25] it is very different

[00:14:26] it's also strange

[00:14:28] because

[00:14:29] like you know when a survivor

[00:14:30] somebody comes up

[00:14:31] and just sort of

[00:14:32] wants to be in the presence

[00:14:33] of somebody else that understands

[00:14:34] that's

[00:14:35] that's very specific

[00:14:36] but then there's this other side

[00:14:37] that's kind of like

[00:14:38] that can feel weird of

[00:14:40] this sort of like hero mentality

[00:14:42] or like this thing

[00:14:44] that you know

[00:14:45] good for you

[00:14:46] you did this

[00:14:47] you know like

[00:14:48] you're getting pats on the back

[00:14:49] and I'm kind of like

[00:14:50] ooh I didn't

[00:14:51] You didn't do it for that reason

[00:14:52] Yeah

[00:14:53] yeah I didn't do it for that reason

[00:14:54] B like I was in it

[00:14:55] for years

[00:14:56] you know lobbying

[00:14:57] and doing the advocacy work

[00:14:59] and I will continue to do that

[00:15:01] but I take breaks

[00:15:03] when I need to

[00:15:04] and I'm not in it all the time

[00:15:06] and I'm not on the floor

[00:15:07] every day

[00:15:08] and there are people that are

[00:15:09] and they're really

[00:15:11] heroes

[00:15:12] I mean that's

[00:15:13] they eat, sleep and breathe

[00:15:14] this

[00:15:15] and I

[00:15:16] just the utmost respect for them

[00:15:18] and

[00:15:19] absolutely

[00:15:20] everything that they do

[00:15:21] so yeah sometimes it can be a little like

[00:15:22] ooh thanks

[00:15:23] but like

[00:15:24] I don't

[00:15:25] try to get

[00:15:26] like no

[00:15:27] I totally get that

[00:15:28] there's a lot more work to do trust me

[00:15:30] yeah

[00:15:31] you're right

[00:15:33] we tell our stories

[00:16:01] we change the world

[00:16:03] a little bit cultie is proud to support

[00:16:05] the hashtag

[00:16:06] I Got Out project

[00:16:07] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse

[00:16:09] to share their stories online

[00:16:11] as a catalyst for education

[00:16:12] prevention

[00:16:13] and healing

[00:16:14] learn more about the hashtag

[00:16:16] I Got Out movement

[00:16:17] and find resources

[00:16:18] at IGotOut.org

[00:16:27] what are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:16:29] maybe you never skip leg day

[00:16:31] or never miss yoga

[00:16:32] maybe it's getting 8 hours of sleep

[00:16:34] I mean that's my personal

[00:16:36] and everyone's dream isn't it?

[00:16:37] well I definitely have some non-negotiables

[00:16:40] like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:16:41] and I'm spending

[00:16:42] literally as much time as I can

[00:16:43] outside in nature

[00:16:44] hashtag

[00:16:45] cold pools

[00:16:46] hashtag

[00:16:47] crushing it

[00:16:48] nature is a non-negotiable

[00:16:49] not enough time in the fresh air

[00:16:50] and the trees around me

[00:16:51] and I start to feel

[00:16:52] not great

[00:16:53] not myself

[00:16:54] not grounded

[00:16:55] therapy day is a bit like

[00:16:56] nature walks

[00:16:57] I try to not miss it

[00:16:58] and I know I'm just going to feel

[00:16:59] so much better all around

[00:17:00] if I make it a priority

[00:17:01] I get so much out of it

[00:17:03] it helps me put my worries

[00:17:04] and anxieties in their rightful place

[00:17:05] and helps me clear my mind

[00:17:07] so I can focus on what I really need

[00:17:08] and sometimes what I don't need

[00:17:09] like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:17:11] just because I hate to say no to people

[00:17:13] you know what I mean

[00:17:14] thanks therapy

[00:17:15] thanks for helping me see that

[00:17:16] and if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:17:17] give better help or try

[00:17:19] it's entirely online

[00:17:20] designed to be convenient

[00:17:21] flexible and suited to your schedule

[00:17:23] just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:17:24] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:17:26] and switch therapists anytime

[00:17:28] for no additional charge

[00:17:29] look even when we know

[00:17:30] what makes us happy

[00:17:31] it's hard to make time for it

[00:17:33] but when you feel like you have

[00:17:34] no time for yourself

[00:17:35] non-negotiables like therapy

[00:17:36] are more important than ever

[00:17:38] never skip therapy day

[00:17:39] with better help

[00:17:40] visit betterhelp.com

[00:17:41] slash culty today

[00:17:42] to get 10% off your first month

[00:17:44] that's better help

[00:17:45] H-E-L-P

[00:17:46] dot com

[00:17:47] slash culty

[00:17:48] the frankies were a picture perfect

[00:17:50] influencer family

[00:17:52] but everything wasn't as it seemed

[00:17:55] I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:17:57] still up here

[00:17:58] asking for help

[00:17:59] he's emaciated

[00:18:00] he's got tape around his legs

[00:18:03] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name

[00:18:05] infamous is covering Ruby Frankie

[00:18:08] the world of Mormonism

[00:18:10] and a secret therapy group

[00:18:12] that ruined lives

[00:18:14] listen to infamous

[00:18:15] wherever you get your podcasts

[00:18:18] you know Sarah and I do

[00:18:20] do it like a walk

[00:18:22] when we talk about our next guest

[00:18:23] and we were both agreed

[00:18:25] that watching Phoenix Rising

[00:18:28] was the one that literally felt

[00:18:30] like we were watching our story

[00:18:33] almost like down to the markers

[00:18:35] normally I can do it

[00:18:36] and decompress

[00:18:37] but this one was like

[00:18:38] I went to bed with it

[00:18:39] I walked in

[00:18:40] and I was driving to my kid to school

[00:18:41] and it was in my head

[00:18:42] the whole time

[00:18:43] the parallels were staggering

[00:18:44] down to even how you were asked questions

[00:18:48] one of the things that I became allergic to

[00:18:50] and I watched some of your interviews

[00:18:52] was some of the questions

[00:18:53] that demonstrated that the interviewer

[00:18:55] didn't really understand

[00:18:56] what they were looking at

[00:18:57] and I thought you did a really impressive job

[00:19:00] of being patient

[00:19:01] and kind of educating

[00:19:02] and I kind of feel like

[00:19:04] it felt like you had to be a little diplomatic

[00:19:06] I don't know you well enough

[00:19:07] to know when you're angry or not

[00:19:08] but it felt like you

[00:19:09] it felt like I was like

[00:19:11] I could think she's best there

[00:19:12] and she's handling it well

[00:19:13] and it was just

[00:19:15] to your point it felt like

[00:19:16] there's more work to do

[00:19:18] and how do you handle that now

[00:19:19] because I know when Sarah

[00:19:21] was going through that

[00:19:22] I was like Sarah that person's not

[00:19:24] I could kind of have her back

[00:19:26] and I'm wondering

[00:19:27] do you have those people in your camp

[00:19:29] because it felt like

[00:19:30] particularly you were 16 years in

[00:19:32] and how's the help been

[00:19:33] and how's the support been

[00:19:35] because it did feel like

[00:19:36] you were the first one

[00:19:37] through the door in this

[00:19:38] in a lot of ways

[00:19:39] Yeah honestly having to do

[00:19:42] the press tour for Phoenix

[00:19:44] I think was one of the hardest parts

[00:19:46] as you said

[00:19:47] because you have the pressure

[00:19:49] of this movement

[00:19:51] sort of on your shoulders

[00:19:53] and you want to represent

[00:19:55] survivors and the issues

[00:19:57] and you don't want to say anything wrong

[00:19:59] or be misunderstood

[00:20:01] but to your point

[00:20:02] I sometimes appreciate those questions

[00:20:04] because it gives you an opportunity

[00:20:06] to sort of spin it

[00:20:07] when they ask me what drew you to him

[00:20:09] it's like well no

[00:20:11] no

[00:20:12] go back

[00:20:13] reverse it

[00:20:14] you know

[00:20:15] I wasn't

[00:20:16] like don't put this on me

[00:20:17] you know we're always kind of

[00:20:19] because it's so

[00:20:20] ingrained in our subconscious

[00:20:23] just from messages

[00:20:25] that we've received through society

[00:20:27] and other people

[00:20:28] and from entertainment

[00:20:29] and we just sort of automatically

[00:20:31] go into these patterns

[00:20:32] and I think what you guys are doing

[00:20:34] and what we're trying to do

[00:20:36] is disrupt the pattern

[00:20:38] you know and by being radically

[00:20:40] honest

[00:20:41] and shedding that shame

[00:20:43] and just telling the truth

[00:20:44] which is

[00:20:45] not only

[00:20:46] incredibly difficult

[00:20:48] but it's dangerous

[00:20:50] like it's actually dangerous to tell the truth

[00:20:53] about these things sometimes

[00:20:54] and that's the part that

[00:20:56] really gets me sometimes

[00:20:57] so just like it shouldn't be this hard

[00:20:59] to just tell the truth

[00:21:00] you know the ecosystem protects

[00:21:01] the perpetrator

[00:21:02] more than nurtures the

[00:21:04] victim

[00:21:05] which I was pretty intolerant of

[00:21:08] but also it was dangerous for us

[00:21:10] in a different way

[00:21:11] it was dangerous for us like legally

[00:21:13] but never physically

[00:21:14] like you were physically

[00:21:16] in danger

[00:21:17] and

[00:21:18] well in legally now

[00:21:19] now you've got the whole package

[00:21:21] yeah

[00:21:22] and all should play

[00:21:23] yeah

[00:21:24] oh my god

[00:21:25] but

[00:21:26] yeah

[00:21:27] fine

[00:21:28] you're celebrating that

[00:21:30] but I don't know if you guys

[00:21:31] experience this

[00:21:32] but when

[00:21:33] you make the decision

[00:21:34] to do something like this

[00:21:36] and to

[00:21:37] speak about something that has

[00:21:39] followers

[00:21:40] and that much power

[00:21:42] I sort of had to just accept the fact

[00:21:45] just accept all worst-case scenarios

[00:21:47] you know you're not going

[00:21:48] oh I'm gonna do this

[00:21:49] but I'm just gonna hope that it's gonna be okay

[00:21:51] you have to kind of say to yourself

[00:21:52] okay

[00:21:53] but you also have to be okay

[00:21:54] with just the worst possible thing happening

[00:21:56] yeah

[00:21:57] whether that's a threat to your safety

[00:21:59] or getting sued

[00:22:01] your career being over

[00:22:02] your reputation being destroyed

[00:22:04] and you know you sort of go through the checklist

[00:22:06] and

[00:22:07] you know do your best to just

[00:22:09] defend yourself against whatever's coming

[00:22:11] but sort of this like acceptance

[00:22:13] of

[00:22:14] well whatever happens is gonna happen

[00:22:15] but I have to do this

[00:22:17] that makes you both

[00:22:18] did you guys experience that?

[00:22:19] oh

[00:22:20] totally

[00:22:21] like nothing

[00:22:22] yeah

[00:22:23] I remember when we were deciding whether to go public

[00:22:25] in the New York Times

[00:22:26] and we had to like hash that out

[00:22:28] like worst case is they'll release my collateral

[00:22:30] you know

[00:22:31] that will be public

[00:22:32] there'll be whatever is out there

[00:22:33] the videos I'd made

[00:22:34] defamatory videos against my family

[00:22:36] they already knew that it was all made up

[00:22:38] because I didn't really have anything

[00:22:40] bad to say about them

[00:22:41] so I had to make shit up

[00:22:42] so they knew that whatever

[00:22:43] if it was released it was false

[00:22:45] it was a false narrative

[00:22:47] but we had to kind of go through those things

[00:22:49] and the career thing was a bit different for me

[00:22:51] because I don't

[00:22:52] didn't have the kind of career that you had

[00:22:54] technically I was a working actor

[00:22:55] but not like

[00:22:56] there's other things I could do

[00:22:57] if that fell through

[00:22:59] oh I'll start a podcast

[00:23:01] but we definitely

[00:23:03] didn't really understand the ramifications

[00:23:06] like

[00:23:07] you know the parents and principal at my

[00:23:09] son's school

[00:23:10] know that

[00:23:11] we were a part of this

[00:23:12] like before they just think we're part of some

[00:23:14] personal development program

[00:23:15] now it's

[00:23:16] sex called

[00:23:17] and to be fair

[00:23:18] yeah

[00:23:19] to be fair

[00:23:20] you know watching

[00:23:21] watching phoenix rising

[00:23:22] it was hard for me

[00:23:23] just to be embarrassed about my decision

[00:23:24] and joining a cult

[00:23:25] and I think that pales in comparison to

[00:23:27] what you had to own

[00:23:30] and to me it was the strongest

[00:23:32] thing I've watched

[00:23:33] in a long time

[00:23:34] just to see

[00:23:35] I mean if

[00:23:36] just was pretty impressive

[00:23:37] to see you get up there

[00:23:38] say all those things

[00:23:39] own it

[00:23:40] and hold your ground

[00:23:41] I can point to that as brave

[00:23:42] and that isn't to take away from

[00:23:44] we went through because we didn't know

[00:23:45] what we were going through

[00:23:46] and it's going to be scary for everyone

[00:23:47] but

[00:23:48] you know I wasn't targeted

[00:23:49] so it wasn't

[00:23:50] that hard for me

[00:23:51] I felt more protecting my wife

[00:23:52] right

[00:23:53] you were targeted in a different way

[00:23:54] yeah

[00:23:55] I mean they're all targeted

[00:23:56] you know I mean

[00:23:57] you said it best in there

[00:23:58] it's like

[00:23:59] I think the term was

[00:24:00] it felt like it was his art

[00:24:01] yeah well and I think

[00:24:02] that's going to be

[00:24:03] I think that's going to be

[00:24:04] one of the discussions

[00:24:05] as this

[00:24:06] goes on you know

[00:24:07] are you just allowed

[00:24:08] to do whatever you want

[00:24:09] as long as you call it

[00:24:10] art

[00:24:11] as long as it's under the guys

[00:24:12] of art

[00:24:13] or under the guys of

[00:24:14] self-help

[00:24:15] in you guys' case

[00:24:16] or you know it's like

[00:24:17] but that's frog

[00:24:18] and that is what

[00:24:19] I think makes my

[00:24:21] situation

[00:24:22] a little bit culty

[00:24:23] yeah

[00:24:24] you know because

[00:24:25] there's a

[00:24:26] very charismatic

[00:24:27] person

[00:24:28] who's very charming

[00:24:29] and seems very wise

[00:24:30] and

[00:24:31] has

[00:24:32] you know something

[00:24:33] new to offer

[00:24:34] a new way of thinking

[00:24:35] and if you're the kind

[00:24:36] of person that

[00:24:37] you know is looking

[00:24:38] for a better way

[00:24:39] or looking for a way

[00:24:40] of liberation

[00:24:41] or freedom

[00:24:42] you know that's

[00:24:43] very alluring

[00:24:44] but then

[00:24:45] you're also stuck

[00:24:46] in this power dynamic

[00:24:47] you know

[00:24:48] in this hierarchy

[00:24:49] and suddenly

[00:24:51] you find yourself

[00:24:52] in a situation

[00:24:53] where you thought

[00:24:54] it's just going to be

[00:24:55] enlightening

[00:24:56] but then it actually

[00:24:57] trapped you

[00:24:58] and it's just slowly

[00:24:59] like eroding away

[00:25:00] your identity

[00:25:02] and it's calculated

[00:25:03] it's not even like

[00:25:04] oh yeah

[00:25:05] it's got swept up

[00:25:06] and it's like no no no

[00:25:07] this is like all

[00:25:08] step by step

[00:25:09] instructions

[00:25:10] on how to

[00:25:11] you know dismantle

[00:25:12] somebody's psyche

[00:25:13] when I watched

[00:25:14] you guys'

[00:25:15] documentary

[00:25:16] I felt the same way

[00:25:17] I couldn't believe

[00:25:18] how much

[00:25:19] I was relating

[00:25:20] to everything

[00:25:21] that you guys

[00:25:22] went through

[00:25:23] the collateral

[00:25:24] that was collected

[00:25:25] and my heart

[00:25:26] just hurt so much

[00:25:27] for you because

[00:25:28] I understand

[00:25:29] what that's like

[00:25:30] and

[00:25:31] this feeling of

[00:25:33] you know some people

[00:25:34] are waking up

[00:25:35] and some people are still asleep

[00:25:36] and you don't really

[00:25:37] know who's on your side

[00:25:38] and you don't know

[00:25:39] who you can trust

[00:25:40] I mean to this day

[00:25:41] even coming forward

[00:25:42] even with

[00:25:43] I don't even know

[00:25:44] what number

[00:25:45] we're on now

[00:25:46] I want to say

[00:25:47] like 50 people

[00:25:48] or something

[00:25:49] coming forward

[00:25:50] you're still kind

[00:25:51] of looking around

[00:25:52] and looking over your

[00:25:53] shoulder like wait a minute

[00:25:54] which one of you

[00:25:55] is going to betray me

[00:25:56] you know

[00:25:57] or throw me under the bus

[00:25:58] and I have seen people

[00:25:59] come forward in support

[00:26:00] of him

[00:26:01] that were like

[00:26:02] acquaintances

[00:26:03] I call it the dark time

[00:26:04] in the dark time

[00:26:05] you know they're like

[00:26:06] yeah I never saw anything

[00:26:07] everything was fine

[00:26:08] I don't know what

[00:26:09] they're talking about

[00:26:10] and some of those people

[00:26:11] definitely saw things

[00:26:12] and just aren't ready

[00:26:13] to admit it

[00:26:14] admit it

[00:26:15] and are still

[00:26:16] in the cult

[00:26:17] and some people genuinely

[00:26:18] didn't see anything

[00:26:19] because they don't do it

[00:26:20] in front of everyone

[00:26:21] that's calculated

[00:26:22] you know

[00:26:23] one of our like

[00:26:24] major points

[00:26:25] that we try to punch

[00:26:26] in the podcast

[00:26:27] because we talk about groups

[00:26:28] where

[00:26:29] you know obviously abuse

[00:26:30] happened

[00:26:31] but it didn't happen everybody

[00:26:32] and when people say

[00:26:33] and I even said this

[00:26:34] when there are accusations

[00:26:35] against KR

[00:26:36] we call him Alan

[00:26:37] because we don't

[00:26:38] like to say his name

[00:26:39] I totally get it

[00:26:40] yes when they

[00:26:41] back in the day

[00:26:42] when I was a believer

[00:26:43] and people there was

[00:26:44] allegations

[00:26:45] I'd say well it wasn't

[00:26:46] my experience

[00:26:47] I've never seen that

[00:26:48] so now that I'm out

[00:26:49] and when I hear people

[00:26:50] say that about anybody

[00:26:51] I say well I'm really

[00:26:52] I don't have to experience

[00:26:54] Hitler

[00:26:55] to know that he was bad

[00:26:56] you know

[00:26:57] and speaking of

[00:26:58] there is another parallel

[00:26:59] both KR

[00:27:00] and what's your

[00:27:01] do you have a moniker

[00:27:02] for Brian

[00:27:03] yeah

[00:27:04] they both were

[00:27:05] they both were obsessed

[00:27:06] with Nazis

[00:27:07] like what's up with that

[00:27:08] it's because of the mind

[00:27:09] control

[00:27:10] it's because it's

[00:27:11] controlling the masses

[00:27:12] I mean in

[00:27:13] Brian's library

[00:27:14] you know

[00:27:15] you'll find

[00:27:16] Nazism

[00:27:17] you'll find

[00:27:18] Scientology

[00:27:19] you'll find

[00:27:20] Charles Manson

[00:27:21] and it's very rooted

[00:27:22] in mind control

[00:27:23] and rooted in

[00:27:24] sort of being your

[00:27:25] own God

[00:27:26] and gathering

[00:27:27] followers

[00:27:28] and you know

[00:27:29] essentially

[00:27:30] breaking them down

[00:27:31] until they're under

[00:27:32] your control

[00:27:33] and so

[00:27:34] that's probably why

[00:27:35] you guys relate to

[00:27:36] my story

[00:27:37] and why some Scientologists

[00:27:38] relate to my story

[00:27:39] or why

[00:27:40] you know because

[00:27:41] the tactics

[00:27:42] are the same

[00:27:43] even if the situation

[00:27:44] maybe slightly

[00:27:45] looks slightly different

[00:27:46] the physical abuses

[00:27:47] is where

[00:27:48] I'm kind of intolerant

[00:27:49] of people

[00:27:50] with the narrative

[00:27:51] I didn't see that

[00:27:52] because once the physical abuse

[00:27:53] starts

[00:27:54] it's a physical manifestation

[00:27:55] of the emotional abuse

[00:27:56] so to me

[00:27:57] it tells me that emotion

[00:27:58] abuse has been going on

[00:27:59] for a long time

[00:28:00] if that happens

[00:28:01] that is correct

[00:28:02] yeah it's usually

[00:28:03] I'm somewhat like

[00:28:04] take a look at my brand

[00:28:05] and then

[00:28:06] you know

[00:28:07] if you don't pivot to that

[00:28:08] then you advertise

[00:28:09] your ignorance

[00:28:10] in my opinion

[00:28:11] like that's

[00:28:12] kind of like

[00:28:13] but I have my boundaries

[00:28:14] what's that like

[00:28:15] especially for women

[00:28:16] especially

[00:28:17] like to not have

[00:28:18] your back

[00:28:19] I have a lot of great

[00:28:21] women

[00:28:22] in my life

[00:28:23] and in the industry

[00:28:24] for sure

[00:28:25] and I also

[00:28:26] really

[00:28:27] haven't read anything

[00:28:28] like I

[00:28:29] when I came forward

[00:28:30] you know what's coming

[00:28:32] you know

[00:28:33] you're like alright

[00:28:34] here comes the propaganda

[00:28:35] here comes the smear

[00:28:36] campaigns

[00:28:37] here comes the slander

[00:28:38] I am gonna

[00:28:39] just block everything

[00:28:40] and cause

[00:28:41] even though

[00:28:42] you know it's not

[00:28:43] real

[00:28:44] it's just

[00:28:45] it's poison

[00:28:46] and it gets

[00:28:47] into your subconscious

[00:28:48] you know

[00:28:49] it's just

[00:28:50] smart

[00:28:51] I can't have it

[00:28:52] in my

[00:28:53] forever

[00:28:54] whatever you want to call it

[00:28:55] I'm always

[00:28:56] yeah yeah

[00:28:57] so yeah

[00:28:58] I just try to

[00:28:59] not let any of that in

[00:29:00] that's smart

[00:29:01] but you know

[00:29:02] it's hard

[00:29:03] when women

[00:29:04] don't

[00:29:05] yeah

[00:29:06] but

[00:29:07] well it's focused on the positive

[00:29:08] also that

[00:29:09] also hard

[00:29:10] it's all hard

[00:29:11] but I

[00:29:12] I think one of the

[00:29:13] moments where

[00:29:14] I cheered the most

[00:29:15] is when

[00:29:16] former band member

[00:29:17] Dan Cleary

[00:29:18] who worked on the tour

[00:29:19] yeah

[00:29:20] reached out to you

[00:29:21] and had your back

[00:29:22] and

[00:29:23] I actually think Nipi and I were

[00:29:24] both in tears because

[00:29:25] I'm tearing up just

[00:29:26] thinking about it

[00:29:27] it was my moment

[00:29:28] I relate to Dan a lot

[00:29:29] are you still in touch with him

[00:29:30] yeah

[00:29:31] I've had to sort of

[00:29:32] stop talking

[00:29:33] to pretty much everybody

[00:29:34] because there's

[00:29:35] an act of investigation

[00:29:36] and

[00:29:37] we kind of all

[00:29:38] had to

[00:29:39] go lone wolf

[00:29:40] for a while

[00:29:41] so it's not to

[00:29:42] you know

[00:29:43] take the process

[00:29:44] and see investigation

[00:29:45] anyway yeah

[00:29:47] and one of the most

[00:29:48] parts is that

[00:29:49] we're all sort of alone

[00:29:50] and we're not

[00:29:51] allowed to speak to each other

[00:29:52] or comfort each other

[00:29:53] or you know

[00:29:54] talk to people

[00:29:55] that are in the same boat

[00:29:56] and to be like

[00:29:57] hey

[00:29:58] how are you doing

[00:29:59] how are you feeling

[00:30:00] other women that were

[00:30:01] in the show

[00:30:02] you have that

[00:30:03] yeah I mean I think

[00:30:04] you know every now

[00:30:05] and then we'll kind of

[00:30:06] wave to each other

[00:30:07] on Instagram

[00:30:08] or have a little

[00:30:09] like hey

[00:30:10] you good

[00:30:11] okay good

[00:30:12] but you know

[00:30:13] we don't get to

[00:30:14] really support each other

[00:30:15] in the way

[00:30:16] we fail

[00:30:17] in the system

[00:30:18] because we had that

[00:30:19] I was supposed to be a witness

[00:30:20] and then they didn't need me

[00:30:21] thank goodness

[00:30:22] because I had a newborn

[00:30:23] at the time

[00:30:24] that would have been

[00:30:25] no fun

[00:30:26] to testify well

[00:30:27] breastfeeding

[00:30:28] it's like I wanted to be

[00:30:29] in court

[00:30:30] but I also like

[00:30:31] was so grateful

[00:30:32] that I didn't have to go

[00:30:33] but anyway my point

[00:30:34] being horrible

[00:30:35] like I just

[00:30:36] but I felt like

[00:30:37] that was a real

[00:30:38] fail

[00:30:39] like they had all

[00:30:40] these victims

[00:30:41] supports

[00:30:42] but like

[00:30:43] really what we need

[00:30:44] is to be able

[00:30:45] to do that is in the

[00:30:46] documentary

[00:30:47] and that was the first time

[00:30:48] you know

[00:30:49] I met some of the other

[00:30:50] victims

[00:30:51] and actually

[00:30:52] got to

[00:30:53] talk about the things

[00:30:54] that had happened to us

[00:30:55] and you guys

[00:30:56] I'm sure know this

[00:30:57] there was so much

[00:30:59] that's not in the documentary

[00:31:00] right

[00:31:01] yeah

[00:31:02] so much

[00:31:03] so much more evidence

[00:31:04] so much more

[00:31:05] cooperation

[00:31:06] and the things that

[00:31:08] I was being told

[00:31:09] oh god

[00:31:10] just

[00:31:11] being able to hear

[00:31:12] from

[00:31:13] especially the men

[00:31:14] that were in

[00:31:15] the immediate circle

[00:31:17] and the things that they saw

[00:31:18] because

[00:31:19] you know I think

[00:31:20] in situations like this

[00:31:21] and with people like that

[00:31:22] it's so

[00:31:23] misogynistic

[00:31:24] in the way that

[00:31:26] the boys are against

[00:31:27] the girls

[00:31:28] and girls are sort of

[00:31:30] like an expensive bottle

[00:31:31] of champagne

[00:31:32] or like a fancy car

[00:31:33] they're just like

[00:31:34] another kind of the

[00:31:35] Kutramah

[00:31:36] that shows your power

[00:31:37] or shows your status

[00:31:38] at least

[00:31:39] in the world that

[00:31:40] I was in

[00:31:41] it was like girls were

[00:31:42] not really

[00:31:43] humans

[00:31:46] they were things

[00:31:47] and so I feel like

[00:31:48] some of the boys

[00:31:49] were let in on more

[00:31:50] of the secrets

[00:31:51] even if they weren't

[00:31:52] okay with it

[00:31:53] they kind of

[00:31:54] have to

[00:31:55] and I don't know if you

[00:31:56] experienced this

[00:31:57] like

[00:31:58] you get put in situations

[00:31:59] where you're like

[00:32:00] I don't know what to say

[00:32:01] or do

[00:32:02] or how to respond

[00:32:03] because all of this seems

[00:32:04] wrong

[00:32:05] nobody else is saying

[00:32:06] anything

[00:32:07] should I say something

[00:32:08] no I don't want to

[00:32:09] make a big deal

[00:32:10] no it's none of my

[00:32:11] sort of

[00:32:12] some of the things

[00:32:13] that the men

[00:32:14] went through

[00:32:15] and the things that they

[00:32:16] saw

[00:32:17] and the things that they knew

[00:32:18] and they were kind of

[00:32:19] telling us

[00:32:20] what was going on behind

[00:32:21] the scenes

[00:32:22] I clearly won't go into it

[00:32:23] here but like

[00:32:24] what can you share

[00:32:25] horrifying

[00:32:26] to hear

[00:32:27] some of the manipulation

[00:32:28] tactics being used

[00:32:29] behind the curtain

[00:32:30] and

[00:32:31] you know

[00:32:32] like there was

[00:32:33] things that would

[00:32:34] be done

[00:32:35] purposely

[00:32:36] to

[00:32:37] not only disorient

[00:32:38] us

[00:32:39] but keep us

[00:32:40] in a constant state

[00:32:41] of like

[00:32:42] anxiety

[00:32:43] and like

[00:32:44] trying to fix something

[00:32:45] or trying to make him

[00:32:46] happy

[00:32:47] and nothing was ever good

[00:32:48] enough

[00:32:49] and we could never fix the

[00:32:50] things that were broken

[00:32:51] and it keeps you

[00:32:52] in a very dysregulated

[00:32:53] state

[00:32:54] so that you're easier

[00:32:55] to sort of manipulate

[00:32:56] like one of the things

[00:32:57] was

[00:32:58] where's my credit card

[00:32:59] and

[00:33:00] it would be

[00:33:01] I don't know

[00:33:02] we'll look for it

[00:33:03] okay

[00:33:04] you start looking for

[00:33:05] the credit card

[00:33:06] it's not being found

[00:33:07] why'd you take

[00:33:08] credit card

[00:33:09] you know

[00:33:10] you start getting

[00:33:11] accused of things

[00:33:12] that you've never done

[00:33:13] and then

[00:33:14] all day

[00:33:15] you're like

[00:33:16] being yelled at

[00:33:17] you're trying to find

[00:33:18] this credit card

[00:33:19] so I'm telling this story

[00:33:20] right

[00:33:21] and then

[00:33:22] one of the other

[00:33:23] people goes

[00:33:24] I hate to tell you this

[00:33:25] he was hiding

[00:33:26] the credit card

[00:33:27] oh my god

[00:33:28] and I was like

[00:33:29] what

[00:33:30] yeah

[00:33:31] he would kind of

[00:33:32] laugh about it

[00:33:33] and show us

[00:33:34] he'd take the credit

[00:33:35] card

[00:33:36] put it in his pocket

[00:33:37] and then

[00:33:38] he'd

[00:33:39] go

[00:33:40] and

[00:33:41] he'd

[00:33:42] just

[00:33:43] put it in his pocket

[00:33:44] and

[00:33:45] he'd

[00:33:46] go

[00:33:47] I'd

[00:33:48] just

[00:33:49] find the credit card

[00:33:50] find the credit card

[00:33:51] find the credit card

[00:33:52] and

[00:33:53] I'd

[00:33:54] it was just

[00:33:55] stuff like that

[00:33:56] that just

[00:33:57] like blew

[00:33:58] my mind

[00:33:59] to

[00:34:00] like

[00:34:01] finally get

[00:34:02] the other piece of the

[00:34:03] puzzle

[00:34:04] like it was already bad

[00:34:05] and I

[00:34:06] I'm going to

[00:34:07] end this

[00:34:08] video

[00:34:09] and I'll

[00:34:10] go back to

[00:34:11] the

[00:34:12] little bit

[00:34:13] culty

[00:34:14] episode

[00:34:15] if you're

[00:34:16] interested in more

[00:34:17] long form

[00:34:18] culty content

[00:34:19] check out

[00:34:20] my memoir

[00:34:21] it's called

[00:34:22] Scarred

[00:34:23] the true story

[00:34:24] of how I

[00:34:25] escaped

[00:34:26] Nexium

[00:34:27] the cult that

[00:34:28] bound my life

[00:34:29] you can

[00:34:30] get it on

[00:34:33] Amazon

[00:34:34] or listen to it

[00:34:35] unaudible

[00:34:36] or find it

[00:34:37] and

[00:34:38] you can help

[00:34:39] by

[00:34:40] participating

[00:34:41] in Macy's

[00:34:42] annual feeding

[00:34:43] the hungry food

[00:34:44] drive

[00:34:45] all proceeds go

[00:34:46] toward

[00:34:47] local food

[00:34:48] banks

[00:34:49] and families

[00:34:50] now through January

[00:34:51] 31st

[00:34:52] you can

[00:34:53] purchase an

[00:34:54] icon

[00:34:55] in-store or online

[00:34:56] or

[00:34:57] watch out for the

[00:34:58] blue

[00:34:59] feeding the

[00:35:00] hungry

[00:35:01] shelf tags

[00:35:02] where a

[00:35:03] portion of

[00:35:04] your purchase

[00:35:05] will be

[00:35:06] self-care

[00:35:07] non-negotiables

[00:35:08] maybe you never

[00:35:09] skip leg day

[00:35:10] or never miss yoga

[00:35:11] maybe it's getting

[00:35:12] eight hours of sleep

[00:35:13] that's my personal

[00:35:14] and everyone's dream

[00:35:15] isn't it

[00:35:16] well I

[00:35:17] definitely have

[00:35:18] some non-negotiables

[00:35:19] like I'm in Vancouver

[00:35:20] right now

[00:35:21] and I'm spending

[00:35:22] literally as much time

[00:35:23] as I can

[00:35:24] outside in nature

[00:35:25] hashtag

[00:35:26] cold pools

[00:35:27] hashtag

[00:35:28] crushing it

[00:35:29] nature is a

[00:35:30] non-negotiable

[00:35:31] not enough time

[00:35:32] in the fresh air

[00:35:33] and the trees around me

[00:35:34] and I start to

[00:35:35] feel like I'm

[00:35:36] really

[00:35:37] tired

[00:35:38] and I know

[00:35:39] I'm just

[00:35:40] gonna feel

[00:35:41] so much better

[00:35:42] all around

[00:35:43] if I make it a

[00:35:44] priority

[00:35:45] I get so much out of it

[00:35:46] it helps me

[00:35:47] put my worries

[00:35:48] and anxieties

[00:35:49] in their rightful place

[00:35:50] and helps me

[00:35:51] clear my mind

[00:35:52] so I can

[00:35:53] focus on

[00:35:54] what I

[00:35:55] really need

[00:35:56] and sometimes

[00:35:57] what I don't need

[00:35:58] like

[00:35:59] I don't need to be

[00:36:00] overbooking myself

[00:36:01] just because

[00:36:02] I hate to say

[00:36:03] know to people

[00:36:04] and switch therapists

[00:36:05] any time for

[00:36:06] no additional charge

[00:36:07] look

[00:36:08] even when we know

[00:36:09] what makes us happy

[00:36:10] it's hard to make time for it

[00:36:11] but when you feel like

[00:36:12] you have no time for yourself

[00:36:13] non-negotiables

[00:36:14] like therapy are more

[00:36:15] important than ever

[00:36:16] never skip therapy day

[00:36:17] with better help

[00:36:18] visit betterhelp.com

[00:36:19] slash culty today

[00:36:20] to get 10% off

[00:36:21] your first month

[00:36:22] that's better help

[00:36:23] H-E-L-P

[00:36:24] dot com

[00:36:25] slash culty

[00:36:26] but here's the thing

[00:36:32] with that

[00:36:33] that can seem like

[00:36:35] a harmless prank

[00:36:36] to someone who's like

[00:36:37] oh I'm going to tease her

[00:36:38] right

[00:36:39] if I'm coming in

[00:36:40] and I'm teasing her

[00:36:41] but it's really

[00:36:43] from his perspective

[00:36:45] the setup

[00:36:46] gaslighting

[00:36:47] yeah it's the very

[00:36:48] from the movie

[00:36:49] making the other person

[00:36:50] right 100%

[00:36:51] yeah yeah

[00:36:52] and like

[00:36:53] and like yeah

[00:36:54] there's difference between

[00:36:55] playing a harmless prank

[00:36:56] and teasing

[00:36:57] of course

[00:36:58] breaking someone down

[00:36:59] and yelling at them

[00:37:00] and making them feel

[00:37:01] like worthless

[00:37:02] but you can defend

[00:37:03] yourself saying

[00:37:04] oh I'm just playing

[00:37:05] with her

[00:37:06] but when you see

[00:37:07] Random roadie

[00:37:08] who sees that

[00:37:09] who can't project

[00:37:10] like bad intent

[00:37:12] or evil intent

[00:37:13] or whatever you want to call it

[00:37:14] can't imagine

[00:37:15] could dismiss it

[00:37:16] and not know what he's looking at

[00:37:17] and I think that's like

[00:37:18] you know why this is such a gift

[00:37:20] that you speak about it

[00:37:21] because one person

[00:37:22] listening to this

[00:37:23] goes oh my god

[00:37:24] that's what my

[00:37:25] partner does to me

[00:37:26] but that's psychopathic

[00:37:27] yeah but they don't know

[00:37:28] what they're looking at

[00:37:29] and they've been able

[00:37:30] to get for themselves

[00:37:31] justify it

[00:37:32] or stay in the relationship

[00:37:33] because they have kids

[00:37:34] or whatever

[00:37:35] and they go, that's what he's doing

[00:37:37] or that's what she's doing or whatever it is.

[00:37:39] That's our goal, what we're trying to do here.

[00:37:40] Like what are the red flags?

[00:37:42] What are the signs so people have that template in their lives?

[00:37:45] Sure.

[00:37:46] Well, cause like when I was in it,

[00:37:47] I think I just thought, oh, you know,

[00:37:49] this is just the six centric artists

[00:37:51] that needs certain things and they're temperamental

[00:37:54] and they're sensitive and they have big reactions

[00:37:56] to things and like, you just have to understand

[00:37:58] that they're an artist and like,

[00:38:00] this is just like how they are.

[00:38:02] So, you know, I prided myself on being like a strong person

[00:38:06] because it's like, well, I've been chosen

[00:38:08] and like I can take it, you know?

[00:38:10] And so suddenly it's like the more abuse you can take,

[00:38:13] like the better you feel.

[00:38:14] Yeah.

[00:38:15] And that's after a long time with the person

[00:38:19] and your brain has just been completely warped

[00:38:22] at this point.

[00:38:23] And, you know, at the time I'm thinking, oh God,

[00:38:26] you know, yeah, he's having one of his moments,

[00:38:28] you know, but I'm not thinking,

[00:38:30] oh, he's purposely trying to run me around in circles

[00:38:34] and exhaust me and run me into the ground

[00:38:35] and disorient me and make me feel like I'm bad

[00:38:38] so that he has control over me.

[00:38:40] You're not thinking that.

[00:38:41] He's absolutely thinking that

[00:38:43] and that's the difference between, you know,

[00:38:45] somebody having a bad day

[00:38:46] and somebody maliciously doing something

[00:38:49] who's read about this, who knows what to do

[00:38:52] and then purposely does it.

[00:38:53] It's like that's as a whole other level.

[00:38:56] That's cult.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:58] He sets up the ecosystem of abuse.

[00:39:01] He normalizes abuse.

[00:39:02] Yes.

[00:39:03] And starting from the beginning,

[00:39:04] circle back to earlier who said like,

[00:39:05] you weren't drawn to him, he pursued you.

[00:39:07] I think that's a parallel that's really important to make

[00:39:09] is that with cults,

[00:39:11] with all of these things where there's abuses of power,

[00:39:14] there's a lie from the beginning.

[00:39:16] He's offering you something

[00:39:18] and you're accepting something,

[00:39:19] but it's not what he's offering.

[00:39:21] Yes.

[00:39:22] It was truly, we always ask our guest this,

[00:39:23] what did you think you were signing up for?

[00:39:25] What was he, what did he tell you

[00:39:27] he was gonna give you?

[00:39:28] I actually love this question

[00:39:30] because especially in my case,

[00:39:33] because Brian looks the way that he does

[00:39:37] and has made the kind of art that he has,

[00:39:40] people assume that you should have known

[00:39:43] what you were getting into.

[00:39:45] And with that logic,

[00:39:46] like then every heavy metal band is like evil

[00:39:50] and abusing people and torturing them

[00:39:53] and why are we fine with this?

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:56] Right.

[00:39:57] Yeah, that's the assumption.

[00:39:58] Yeah, it's like no, no, no, no, no.

[00:40:01] Look, I am an actor.

[00:40:02] I've been in the entertainment industry.

[00:40:04] I put on costumes and play roles all the time.

[00:40:07] I have played abusers.

[00:40:09] That doesn't mean that I'm taking my work home with me

[00:40:13] or I play a killer robot on TV.

[00:40:15] That doesn't mean I'm over here like shooting up the place.

[00:40:19] So you can't be like, oh, well, you dated,

[00:40:21] you dated, she was on Westworld.

[00:40:22] So what did you expect?

[00:40:24] Like that's why you're dead.

[00:40:25] It's like, no, no, this logic does not make sense.

[00:40:30] It doesn't.

[00:40:30] And so like I expected a hangover.

[00:40:33] I expected to be in my 20s

[00:40:35] and probably go to some wild parties.

[00:40:37] I was looking for liberation

[00:40:40] and I was looking to sort of find myself

[00:40:42] and explore my sexuality because I was queer.

[00:40:46] And you know, I thought I was with somebody

[00:40:48] that was sensitive to that or understood it.

[00:40:51] I ended up being wrong about that as well.

[00:40:54] I didn't go to college and I went on tour with...

[00:40:57] Probably shit.

[00:41:00] Yeah, I know.

[00:41:01] Like I really wish I'd gone to college,

[00:41:02] but I really thought that he was more of a mentor

[00:41:06] and that I was going to gain wisdom and experience.

[00:41:11] And again, I thought I would have some wild nights,

[00:41:15] but I assumed that I would still be in control

[00:41:18] of what happened to my body and mind

[00:41:21] and that there would be consent.

[00:41:24] There's a way to have fun wild times

[00:41:27] and still make sure that A, everybody's of age

[00:41:30] and B, everybody's consenting.

[00:41:32] I don't know why that's a hard concept for people to grasp.

[00:41:36] It feels like the whole,

[00:41:38] well look at what she was wearing kind of thing.

[00:41:40] And in our case, a lot of these girls

[00:41:43] were tattooed, fishnet wearing, goth looking girls.

[00:41:49] And I feel like people judge them

[00:41:52] because of the way that they look

[00:41:54] and thinking they were after something

[00:41:56] or deserved it in some way,

[00:41:57] just because they wanted to go to a fun party.

[00:42:00] It's like, no.

[00:42:04] It doesn't justify the abuse.

[00:42:05] Not at all, no.

[00:42:06] But for some people it does.

[00:42:08] Yeah, the whole short skirt thing doesn't really...

[00:42:11] I mean, listen.

[00:42:12] What did you expect?

[00:42:13] I think that has been such an important question

[00:42:16] for us with our guests is,

[00:42:17] what did you think you were signing up for?

[00:42:18] Because there is the initial con

[00:42:20] from the abuser right at the beginning.

[00:42:22] If he had said to you,

[00:42:23] hey, do you want to go on tour

[00:42:25] and then I'm gonna slowly dismantle your psyche

[00:42:27] and your sense of intuition

[00:42:28] and eventually put my initials on your crotch.

[00:42:30] What do you think?

[00:42:31] Yeah, I'd have been like absolutely not.

[00:42:33] You know, you don't sign up.

[00:42:35] There's not a sign-up sheet for rape and abuse.

[00:42:38] It's just not how this works.

[00:42:39] And that is why there's no consent.

[00:42:42] And honestly, the more I found out reading

[00:42:47] all of the statements online

[00:42:49] and all of the stories that came out

[00:42:51] and looking at the ages of some of the girls

[00:42:53] and looking at the timeline,

[00:42:55] I knew it was bad.

[00:42:56] I knew what happened to me was bad.

[00:42:57] And then I knew what happened to other people was bad.

[00:42:59] But then the more I read,

[00:43:01] the more I realized that as you said,

[00:43:04] there was never consent.

[00:43:06] And when I realized that all of this

[00:43:08] had been happening long before me and long after,

[00:43:11] it was like this crushing realization of,

[00:43:13] oh, I didn't just have a bad relationship.

[00:43:16] I was groomed by a predator

[00:43:17] from the second that he said hello to me

[00:43:19] and he lied to me about who he was there for.

[00:43:22] Every time we were intimate,

[00:43:24] any time I felt safe.

[00:43:26] It was all a con.

[00:43:27] It's all a con, yeah.

[00:43:28] And so in a way it feels like every time we were intimate,

[00:43:31] almost it feels like a violation now.

[00:43:34] Even if every time wouldn't be classified as rape,

[00:43:38] it's still done under the guise of fraud and coercion.

[00:43:42] And so it's really hard to reconcile all of it.

[00:43:44] Have you been in touch with the FGKIA?

[00:43:48] Ladies, hashtag FGKIA stands for freely given

[00:43:52] knowledgeable informed agreement.

[00:43:54] No.

[00:43:55] Yeah, I'll connect you later.

[00:43:57] We did an episode with them.

[00:43:58] Their whole thing is about also changing laws

[00:44:00] because apparently consent,

[00:44:01] there's no legal definition for it.

[00:44:04] Well, it's different states.

[00:44:05] No across-the-board definitions.

[00:44:07] And you're familiar with the state's statutes, right?

[00:44:10] Yeah, and the laws for consent

[00:44:12] and the torture laws and all of the laws.

[00:44:15] And this just came up for me because I say on camera,

[00:44:19] master would you brand me?

[00:44:20] It would be an honor, which I was instructed to say

[00:44:22] and I had to follow instructions.

[00:44:24] And the reason why you were asked to say that

[00:44:27] is in case that ever legally came back to Hong Kong.

[00:44:30] Yeah, it's like that's a total move.

[00:44:32] It is a move, but actually there's one

[00:44:34] of the pieces of evidence was Alan telling Alison Mack

[00:44:38] ask the women to put their hands up above their heads

[00:44:40] and say this so that it appears consensual.

[00:44:43] And that's a recording

[00:44:44] because of course they recorded everything.

[00:44:46] And it also demonstrates he knows it's not consensual.

[00:44:49] Exactly.

[00:44:50] Why would I consent to that?

[00:44:51] Yeah.

[00:44:53] Ridiculous, ridiculous.

[00:44:55] One of the things too, and we experienced this,

[00:44:57] one of the people said yes,

[00:44:59] but it was consensual to me on the phone.

[00:45:01] I spoke to someone who was like trying to talk us out

[00:45:03] of what they knew was coming,

[00:45:04] which is us going to the news

[00:45:06] and someone who's still loyal.

[00:45:07] And they said yes, but it was consensual.

[00:45:08] And I said, do you understand when you say

[00:45:10] but it was consensual, it adds to the problem?

[00:45:14] It's and it was consensual.

[00:45:15] What's going on up there where this,

[00:45:17] and this is a guy and I was like,

[00:45:18] if you say yes, but it means

[00:45:20] you don't understand what you're looking at.

[00:45:22] The fact that there is women agreeing

[00:45:24] to this abuse around this man is the red flag.

[00:45:28] Not yes, but it's yes and.

[00:45:31] So if you don't understand that yes and

[00:45:33] if you say yes, but I just know

[00:45:36] that I'm talking to someone who's

[00:45:37] doesn't know what they're looking at

[00:45:38] because the fact that there are women agreeing to this

[00:45:42] tells me he doesn't know what he's looking at.

[00:45:44] So anyone who says yes, but or all that stuff

[00:45:47] I just kind of go, you need education.

[00:45:49] Yeah.

[00:45:50] It's frustrating.

[00:45:51] It is frustrating and it's also why it took me

[00:45:54] a long time to even classify some of the things

[00:45:57] that happened to me as rape

[00:45:59] because I was fed sort of the thing that

[00:46:02] we're all fed, which is like

[00:46:04] you have to be held down and screaming

[00:46:06] and beaten up for it to count

[00:46:09] or for there to be no consent

[00:46:10] and this idea of the perfect victim

[00:46:13] and especially when you're in a cult situation

[00:46:18] where there's genuine mind control

[00:46:22] and sleep deprivation and food deprivation

[00:46:25] and military tactics being done

[00:46:28] to your brain and body

[00:46:30] to put you in a state where

[00:46:33] you'll kind of agree to anything

[00:46:35] just to make things stop.

[00:46:36] Right.

[00:46:37] That was true for a lot of the situations

[00:46:40] I was put in where you're so scared of somebody

[00:46:44] and you're so beaten down.

[00:46:47] You just kind of...

[00:46:48] And I guess this also could fall

[00:46:50] into the category of Stockholm syndrome

[00:46:51] where you're just like, I'm just going to agree

[00:46:54] to whatever you want so that I can survive

[00:46:56] to tomorrow.

[00:46:57] Absolutely.

[00:46:58] So I can figure out how to get out of here.

[00:47:00] Yeah.

[00:47:01] You know, and I think I got stuck in that

[00:47:03] for what felt like forever of just like,

[00:47:06] I just have to play along until I know what to do.

[00:47:22] That was part one of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood.

[00:47:25] Heavy stuff, no, Sarah?

[00:47:26] Heavy and important.

[00:47:28] Got part two coming your way this week

[00:47:29] so be sure to listen to that when it drops.

[00:47:32] And do let us know what you think.

[00:47:33] Come hang out with us over on Instagram

[00:47:35] or leave us a voicemail on our website

[00:47:38] at a little bit culty.com.

[00:47:39] Just know that anything you say or do

[00:47:41] on our voicemail might get played

[00:47:43] on this podcast very soon.

[00:47:44] And a little note to the Marilyn Manson army.

[00:47:47] We instantly block victim shamers and obvious trolls

[00:47:51] and you might get a personal go fuck yourself for me.

[00:47:53] So maybe channel your rage somewhere else.

[00:47:55] Okay, it's not good, okay?

[00:47:57] No good, maybe like make some art, like make a song.

[00:48:00] Open up your garage band and make a song about your hate.

[00:48:02] Okay, everyone else be sure to join us over on Patreon

[00:48:05] if you want to hear us unpack

[00:48:06] the Evan Rachel Wood interview

[00:48:07] and other shiny, delicious bonus content.

[00:48:10] That's where we're going to give our ride or die

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[00:48:17] Find us over at Patreon for everything

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[00:48:21] and signed merch to VIP access.

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[00:48:25] Right, VIP access to our special

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[00:48:34] Our Patreon subscription start at $5 a month.

[00:48:37] And if you're already one of our dear monthly patrons

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[00:48:49] Treats? Yeah, treats.

[00:48:51] See on Instagram and hopefully over on Patreon

[00:48:53] and also maybe in our dreams, sir.

[00:48:55] Not our nightmares. Okay.

[00:48:57] We love you.

[00:48:58] Thank you. Good to be back.

[00:48:59] Good to be back.

[00:49:00] Season five.

[00:49:01] Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

[00:49:02] Seeking doubt to the depths of the ocean

[00:49:07] I'm hanging on to the weight of my love

[00:49:11] But I know

[00:49:21] Hope you liked this episode.

[00:49:23] Let's keep the conversation going

[00:49:24] and come hang out with us on Patreon

[00:49:26] where we keep the tape rolling each week

[00:49:28] with special episodes just for Patreon subscribers

[00:49:30] and where we get deep into the weeds

[00:49:32] of unpacking every episode of the Vowel.

[00:49:34] And if you're looking for our show notes

[00:49:35] or some sweet, sweet swag

[00:49:37] or official ALBC podcast merch

[00:49:39] or a list of our most recommended

[00:49:41] Cult Recovery resources,

[00:49:43] visit our website at alillibitculti.com.

[00:49:45] And for more background on what brought us here,

[00:49:47] check out Sarah's page-turning memoir.

[00:49:49] It's called Scarred,

[00:49:50] the True Story of High Escape Nexium,

[00:49:52] The Cult that Bound My Life.

[00:49:53] It's available on Amazon, Audible,

[00:49:55] Narrated by My Life

[00:49:56] and at most bookstores.

[00:49:58] Alillibit Culti is a talkhouse podcast

[00:50:00] and a Trace 120 production.

[00:50:03] We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson

[00:50:05] and Anthony Nipy Ames

[00:50:06] with writing, research

[00:50:07] and additional production support

[00:50:08] by senior producer Jess Tardy.

[00:50:11] We're edited, mixed and mastered

[00:50:12] by our rocking producer Will Rutherford

[00:50:14] of Citizens of Sound

[00:50:15] and our amazing theme song, Cultivated,

[00:50:17] is by John Bryant

[00:50:19] and co-written by Nigel Asselin.

[00:50:21] Thank you for listening.