[00:00:00] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit cultier, those are the hosts.
[00:00:03] And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast, right Sarah?
[00:00:07] Correct.
[00:00:08] Any of the quote fire content, I prefer lava content, provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors,
[00:00:14] or authors of the opinion and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization,
[00:00:20] business individual, anyone or anything unless Sarah?
[00:00:23] You're a douchebag.
[00:00:24] Yeah, I mean pretty much.
[00:00:26] Also we're not doctors, psychologists, or wizards.
[00:00:29] We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly and formative podcast based
[00:00:33] on our experience that we've turned into wisdom.
[00:00:35] Okay, good talk.
[00:00:36] Okay.
[00:00:47] Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.
[00:00:49] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty,
[00:00:56] aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.
[00:01:01] We've been there and back again.
[00:01:02] A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult.
[00:01:07] And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.
[00:01:09] The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season.
[00:01:14] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how
[00:01:19] I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.
[00:01:21] Look at us, a couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night
[00:01:26] where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control.
[00:01:30] Oh wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe.
[00:01:33] We got to schedule that, that's separate.
[00:01:34] So it's two days we gotta hang out?
[00:01:36] We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium.
[00:01:41] Still on that journey and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help
[00:01:44] of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.
[00:01:46] We know all too well that culty things happen.
[00:01:48] It happens to people every day across every walk of life.
[00:01:51] So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating
[00:01:55] to mega churches and multi-level marketing.
[00:01:57] This stuff really is everywhere.
[00:01:59] The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we.
[00:02:03] Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie,
[00:02:05] serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms.
[00:02:10] Learn more at alittlebitculti.com.
[00:02:19] Hey ALBC listeners, here's part two of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood,
[00:02:34] who is a pretty phenomenal actor and a force to be reckoned with in the activism
[00:02:37] and human rights world now.
[00:02:39] 100%. Also on her resume, most likely to be hideously trolled by the Marilyn Manson
[00:02:44] Stands of the World.
[00:02:45] If you haven't listened to part one, back that ass up.
[00:02:47] This is a two-parter.
[00:02:48] Repeat, this is a two-parter.
[00:02:51] Evan Rachel Wood is chatting with us about her journey from Starlet to survivor
[00:02:55] to activist and how she's doing now that her story has gone wide.
[00:02:59] Make sure you watch Phoenix Rising on HBO if you haven't already.
[00:03:02] It's a gut-wrenching but beautifully made docu-series by Amy Berg,
[00:03:05] who is Oscar nominated filmmaker behind Deliver Us from Evil,
[00:03:08] a documentary about the sex abuse cases in the Catholic Church
[00:03:11] and the Emmy nominated docu-series The Case Against Adnan Said,
[00:03:15] which most people know about from the serial podcast,
[00:03:17] which is like the granddaddy of True Chime podcast really, right?
[00:03:20] And again, an important note for our listeners and our lawyers
[00:03:24] that Marilyn Manson has repeatedly denied the multiple sexual assault allegations.
[00:03:28] So strangely, who deny that?
[00:03:29] Yes, and has recently sued Evan for defamation over the accusations,
[00:03:33] claiming it's all part of an elaborate quote-unquote organized attack.
[00:03:36] Because she's got nothing else to do.
[00:03:38] There we said it.
[00:03:39] Marilyn Manson categorically denies all of it.
[00:03:42] Okay, whatever buddy.
[00:03:43] Yeah, okay.
[00:03:43] And again, conversations like the one you're about to hear
[00:03:46] can be traumatizing for abused survivors.
[00:03:48] So please listen to this episode with caution
[00:03:50] and if you or anyone you know needs support,
[00:03:52] you can reach out to the rape, abuse and incest national network, RAINN.
[00:03:56] The organization provides free confidential support to sexual assault victims
[00:04:00] or call their hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE or CRCITE for some links
[00:04:05] to critical resources at a little bitculti.com.
[00:04:08] And we aren't journalists or forensic psychologists,
[00:04:11] and we can be partial if we want to,
[00:04:13] so we are unapologetically partial to her.
[00:04:16] So eat it, weirdos of the dark web.
[00:04:19] Eat it.
[00:04:20] Everyone else come hang out with us on Patreon after this.
[00:04:22] We'll tell you what we really think
[00:04:25] in our After Evan bonus episode
[00:04:27] for a little bitculti Patreon subscribers only.
[00:04:29] This season, we're going to be unpacking things over on Patreon
[00:04:32] in a slightly looser format
[00:04:33] and you can get access to those post-episode musings
[00:04:36] plus other fun bonus content every month.
[00:04:38] There are some cool rewards and tiers starting at $5 a month.
[00:04:41] And I know that tiers and members-only content
[00:04:43] in exchange for cash feels a little bit culti,
[00:04:45] but it's capitalism, okay?
[00:04:46] We didn't invent capitalism.
[00:04:47] No, he can't play best for that.
[00:04:49] Capitalism can be a little bit culti.
[00:04:51] 100%.
[00:04:51] Tondo P.
[00:04:52] Save that for another episode.
[00:04:53] Okay.
[00:04:54] All right.
[00:04:54] Here's part two of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood.
[00:05:08] What was the final straw after all the things
[00:05:10] that you put on the shelf?
[00:05:12] What broke it eventually?
[00:05:13] There were a lot of moments.
[00:05:16] There wasn't like one final thing where it was like,
[00:05:18] that's it because I had a lot of those moments.
[00:05:20] I left so many times.
[00:05:23] Sometimes I would get out,
[00:05:24] but I was always still under his eye
[00:05:27] and he was still keeping tabs on me
[00:05:30] and still reaching out to me and all of these things.
[00:05:34] Or I'd make it to the end of the driveway,
[00:05:36] or like the amount of times I packed my suitcase
[00:05:39] and got to the door and then you're going,
[00:05:41] why can't I walk out of the door?
[00:05:43] Why can't I leave?
[00:05:45] And it's because that psychological manipulation
[00:05:49] has infected your everything.
[00:05:53] Right.
[00:05:54] And it seems scarier to leave,
[00:05:58] but I think there was really a really, really,
[00:06:01] really scary moment and it wasn't even a violent one.
[00:06:05] It was when I realized that he was turning it on
[00:06:07] and turning it off when I got really scared
[00:06:11] because that's when it changed for me
[00:06:12] and it wasn't just, oh, you're not just drunk.
[00:06:15] You're not just sad.
[00:06:17] You're not just a hurt person.
[00:06:19] You're not an eccentric artist.
[00:06:21] You're doing this on purpose.
[00:06:23] And you know when to turn it on,
[00:06:26] when to turn off, how to and who to do it in front of.
[00:06:28] Anytime he had to do an interview or anything in public,
[00:06:32] I ended up getting to a point where I would lock myself
[00:06:34] in the bathroom because he's such an insecure person
[00:06:39] and he would always just abuse everybody all day
[00:06:43] while he was getting ready because he would be,
[00:06:45] I don't know, I'm not in his head,
[00:06:47] but it felt like he was so insecure about himself
[00:06:50] that he had to make it sort of everybody else's problem.
[00:06:54] And so I would lock myself in the bathroom
[00:06:56] while he was getting ready
[00:06:57] because I just knew it was going to be awful
[00:07:00] and I was going to get yelled at
[00:07:01] and abused and blamed for everything.
[00:07:02] And so anyway, so like all morning,
[00:07:05] he's just going off and like throwing things
[00:07:08] and wrecking things and yelling and like,
[00:07:11] I'm pretty sure I was locked in the bathroom
[00:07:13] and like, you know, it was just chaos.
[00:07:16] And then almost on a dime from one room
[00:07:19] to going in to do this interview,
[00:07:21] it was like chaos and then he went in and it was,
[00:07:24] and all of a sudden he was Marilyn and Manson was gone.
[00:07:27] And he was just calm, totally fine.
[00:07:30] Easy breeze.
[00:07:30] He started talking about me.
[00:07:32] Oh yeah, I love her blah, blah, blah.
[00:07:34] And like there was just something about this one time
[00:07:38] that like it still just gives me chills
[00:07:41] just thinking about it,
[00:07:41] just watching the shit, watching the mask go on
[00:07:45] and realizing like, oh, he's not even trying
[00:07:47] to hide the fact that he wears a mask anymore.
[00:07:50] Like he's got so much power and control over me.
[00:07:52] He didn't even bother hiding this.
[00:07:56] I saw it.
[00:07:57] I saw the mask go on.
[00:07:59] And that's when I knew that he wasn't just sick,
[00:08:02] that it was calculated.
[00:08:03] You know, it was really terrifying.
[00:08:05] Whether you're religious or not,
[00:08:06] like the power of prayer,
[00:08:07] you know, or the power of focused energy
[00:08:09] or when you focus enough good energy onto something,
[00:08:13] you know, maybe you can make good things happen.
[00:08:15] You know, and that's not to say that if you focus enough
[00:08:17] bad energy on something,
[00:08:19] what you might be stirring up or opening up.
[00:08:22] And he was certainly somebody that just invited
[00:08:25] any type of bad energy in,
[00:08:27] just open the door to it all the time.
[00:08:29] And I didn't believe in things like that
[00:08:31] until I was around him and felt it
[00:08:34] and felt how sick I got
[00:08:36] and just felt how thick the air was
[00:08:38] and felt I just never understood
[00:08:40] what like pure evil was until I was around it.
[00:08:44] You know, but it's like if you have like fetuses and jars
[00:08:47] and paintings that John Wing Gacy did on your wall
[00:08:52] and the crime scene photos of Sharon Tate
[00:08:56] in the hanging in the bathroom
[00:08:58] and like Hitler's coat hangers
[00:09:00] and like all of that was in our house.
[00:09:02] Oh my God.
[00:09:04] You know, that is like a vortex of dark,
[00:09:08] just the darkest energy that you're inviting in
[00:09:12] that we were just, I was just swimming in all the time.
[00:09:14] Yeah, it's awful.
[00:09:16] You know, like, man, why would you want that
[00:09:19] in your home all the time?
[00:09:20] We had our version of that.
[00:09:22] Exactly.
[00:09:22] We did.
[00:09:23] We had our version of it and there's a front for it.
[00:09:25] We're three people like Sarah and I set out
[00:09:27] to do good in the world.
[00:09:28] I'm assuming, you know, Evan,
[00:09:29] when you started your acting career,
[00:09:31] you had a vision for what you looked like.
[00:09:33] Yet we found ourselves in the clutches
[00:09:35] of this dark force.
[00:09:37] Somehow with the intent of doing good.
[00:09:39] Yes.
[00:09:39] Do you remember when we saw that spiritual person,
[00:09:42] I forget who it was now,
[00:09:43] but they were looking at what had happened
[00:09:45] and described Alan as a harvester of souls.
[00:09:48] Yes.
[00:09:49] Oh, yeah.
[00:09:49] And they need your light.
[00:09:50] They need your light.
[00:09:51] They feed off it.
[00:09:52] They need it.
[00:09:52] They do.
[00:09:53] And they suck it and it's like their life force.
[00:09:57] Yeah.
[00:09:57] No, they have to do it.
[00:09:58] The energy vampire.
[00:09:59] It's an itch.
[00:10:00] They can't not scratch.
[00:10:01] Absolutely.
[00:10:02] How did you heal from that, Evan?
[00:10:04] Like how did you
[00:10:04] and how do you still protect yourself?
[00:10:06] You know, it's funny.
[00:10:07] I did realize one thing that will still make me angry sometimes
[00:10:13] and what I've heard from other survivors
[00:10:16] is the old you that you feel like was killed.
[00:10:19] And there is a version of me that I still mourn
[00:10:24] that was just so full of light and joy
[00:10:29] and just was so excited to go out into the world
[00:10:33] and do good and to live life
[00:10:35] and to have fun.
[00:10:36] And I used to say I was naive,
[00:10:38] but then I changed that to the less self-deprecating description
[00:10:42] of innocent, you know,
[00:10:44] just that innocence that was taken.
[00:10:46] And idealistic.
[00:10:47] And idealistic, absolutely.
[00:10:49] And I still have a lot of those qualities.
[00:10:52] I mean, clearly like I, you know,
[00:10:54] even just going and doing the Phoenix act,
[00:10:56] like there's always going to be a part of me
[00:10:58] that wants to help people,
[00:10:59] wants to do good and help heal.
[00:11:02] And if that means, you know, exposing some of my,
[00:11:07] all the things that I'm the least proud of,
[00:11:10] that's, you know, one way of doing it
[00:11:11] and one way of turning poison into medicine.
[00:11:14] But how do I protect myself from that stuff?
[00:11:16] Well, it doesn't go away overnight.
[00:11:18] And after I got out of my relationship with Brian,
[00:11:21] I have had good relationships
[00:11:22] and healthy relationships
[00:11:23] and some lovely people who I'm still so, so close with.
[00:11:27] But I also fell into some similar traps
[00:11:30] and was taken advantage of.
[00:11:32] And was told things that I wanted to hear
[00:11:35] and, you know, was looking for love
[00:11:37] in all the wrong places.
[00:11:38] And I realized that I finally got to a point where
[00:11:41] I realized like, oh, it's not just defending myself
[00:11:43] against these people.
[00:11:44] It's healing the part of myself
[00:11:45] that is also when these people come into my life,
[00:11:49] they feel like home and they feel familiar.
[00:11:53] And what is this part of myself
[00:11:55] that sort of allows it in?
[00:11:57] And if I heal that part of myself,
[00:12:00] then I won't fall for this bullshit anymore.
[00:12:05] You know, and that's why I sort of incorporated
[00:12:08] some of my family stuff into the Phoenix Act
[00:12:11] because the more work that I did on myself
[00:12:14] and with survivors
[00:12:15] and the more I looked at the problem,
[00:12:17] the more I realized like,
[00:12:19] this isn't just about one man.
[00:12:20] This isn't just about perpetrator victim.
[00:12:23] You know, it's an entire system that enables it.
[00:12:26] And there's also the cyclical nature of abuse
[00:12:32] or grooming or, you know,
[00:12:34] even if it's not at the level that Brian does it,
[00:12:37] there's little things that can erode your sense of self
[00:12:40] or your voice or your ability to, you know,
[00:12:44] identify abuse.
[00:12:45] And for me, you know,
[00:12:47] it was like looking back at my life and going,
[00:12:50] well, yeah, you were a child actor.
[00:12:54] You grew up in an arena that was made for adults
[00:12:59] where you were expected to behave like an adult.
[00:13:01] You were expected to do what you were told,
[00:13:03] wear the clothes that you were told to wear,
[00:13:06] look the way you were told to look,
[00:13:08] say the things that you were supposed to say,
[00:13:10] put on a happy face, don't talk back,
[00:13:12] don't cause problems.
[00:13:14] You know, the more you could soldier through things
[00:13:17] and not cause a scene,
[00:13:19] the less you used your voice,
[00:13:21] the more you were rewarded.
[00:13:23] You know, in its own way, Hollywood is a cult.
[00:13:26] Absolutely.
[00:13:27] I was going to ask you about that.
[00:13:28] Yeah, 100%.
[00:13:29] 100%
[00:13:30] Dude, yeah, come on.
[00:13:32] You can't speak up.
[00:13:33] You can't speak up.
[00:13:34] And again, like any kind of massive industry
[00:13:36] with a lot of money and a lot of power,
[00:13:38] it's going to kind of operate like a cult
[00:13:41] in that there's going to be hierarchies.
[00:13:44] You're not going to be able to say anything
[00:13:45] because you could lose your spot in line
[00:13:47] and they operate off a set of their own rules
[00:13:51] and their own laws.
[00:13:52] And they are accountable to different people.
[00:13:55] And it puts you in a situation where you're kind of powerless.
[00:14:00] And like that was even scary coming forward
[00:14:04] because people have asked me, like,
[00:14:05] well, what's it like being put through the system?
[00:14:08] And I said, it's kind of like that scene
[00:14:10] in Texas Chainsaw Massacre
[00:14:11] where you finally escape the murder house
[00:14:14] and you go to the neighbors and you say,
[00:14:16] oh my God, help me call the cops
[00:14:18] and they're dressed like the cops.
[00:14:19] And then they call the murder house
[00:14:21] and the murder house drags you back.
[00:14:24] You know, it's like the people that you go to for help
[00:14:26] sometimes are there to intercept you
[00:14:29] or to pretend like they're there to help you
[00:14:30] but really they're there to either get information
[00:14:33] or to throw a wrench in your whole plan
[00:14:37] or, you know, they're not actually going to help you.
[00:14:40] You know, and so that's pretty scary.
[00:14:41] How do you feel about that all?
[00:14:42] It's really scary.
[00:14:43] I just like realizing that you've gone through all this,
[00:14:46] become an activist
[00:14:47] and you still have this incredible career
[00:14:50] and you're a mother.
[00:14:51] Like how do you balance all of that?
[00:14:52] And what's your creative journey?
[00:14:53] And these are two questions.
[00:14:55] What's your creative journey as an artist
[00:14:58] on the other side of this?
[00:14:59] It's changing a lot day by day.
[00:15:02] I really, really love acting.
[00:15:04] I really don't like all the things
[00:15:06] that surround it all the time.
[00:15:08] You know, the more I've been able to sort of
[00:15:11] take a step back and examine it
[00:15:13] and examine some of the things
[00:15:15] that are expected of me
[00:15:17] if I am to pursue this and do the things that I do.
[00:15:20] I question things a lot more
[00:15:22] and I participate in things less.
[00:15:26] I'm starting to have much more
[00:15:28] of a Fiona Apple approach to most things
[00:15:32] of like, no, I'm not going to do that
[00:15:34] because I don't believe in it
[00:15:35] and I think it's actually bullshit
[00:15:36] and perpetuates certain ideas about
[00:15:39] celebrity and about beauty
[00:15:41] and about the patriarchy or whatever.
[00:15:44] Just like, no, I'm not going to do this anymore.
[00:15:46] And I'm lucky that I do feel like
[00:15:48] I'm in a place where I can do that
[00:15:49] and I can continue to act
[00:15:51] and do the things I love
[00:15:52] but I probably won't participate
[00:15:54] in the other things as much anymore
[00:15:55] just because it just doesn't feel the same.
[00:15:59] It feels a little peculiar.
[00:16:00] Well, it's good that the artists
[00:16:01] can control that now.
[00:16:02] Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:03] And again, I am in a privileged place
[00:16:07] where I can do that.
[00:16:10] I think a lot of artists
[00:16:11] are always put in this shitty position
[00:16:13] of like, how much do I play the game
[00:16:15] and how many...
[00:16:16] Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:17] Like I got to do this
[00:16:18] to do the things that I love
[00:16:19] and that's a lot of times
[00:16:21] the leverage that the industry holds
[00:16:22] over your head in order to abuse you
[00:16:24] as well because they're like,
[00:16:25] hey, we know you really want this.
[00:16:27] So are you willing to like,
[00:16:29] let us treat you like this to get this?
[00:16:32] And if it's not you,
[00:16:33] it's going to be somebody else.
[00:16:34] 100%.
[00:16:35] Yeah, and yeah, if it's not you,
[00:16:36] then like somebody else
[00:16:37] definitely will take the abuse.
[00:16:39] That's the shit that's got to change
[00:16:41] because right now
[00:16:41] it's just that's how the system works
[00:16:43] and it's always going to be a culture of abuse
[00:16:45] if we don't all start saying no.
[00:16:48] You know?
[00:16:48] That's the thing that kind of
[00:16:49] chaps my ass about Hollywood
[00:16:50] is a lot of times they flex
[00:16:52] that they're this moral conscience of things
[00:16:55] in a lot of ways
[00:16:55] that they try to lead these causes
[00:16:57] that they don't embody themselves.
[00:16:58] And the virtue signaling
[00:16:59] that comes out of it.
[00:16:59] And they undermine the cause
[00:17:01] that they profess to champion.
[00:17:02] Evan shaking her head
[00:17:04] for those who can't see her right now.
[00:17:08] Yeah, because it is that
[00:17:10] the more I've been in it,
[00:17:11] the more...
[00:17:11] And I've been guilty of this as well.
[00:17:13] We're all guilty of this, you know,
[00:17:15] in some form or another,
[00:17:17] some more than others.
[00:17:18] And there is, yeah,
[00:17:19] there's a lot of
[00:17:20] this is wrong,
[00:17:21] this is wrong stand up for this
[00:17:23] but then they're going
[00:17:24] and doing the exact opposite
[00:17:25] and completely playing
[00:17:27] and do all of the things
[00:17:29] that they're claiming to be against.
[00:17:30] And so there's tons of hypocrisy.
[00:17:35] This is the golden age
[00:17:37] of cult recovery.
[00:17:38] The more we speak up
[00:17:40] and share our stories
[00:17:41] the more we realize
[00:17:42] we are not alone.
[00:17:44] Your voice and your story
[00:17:45] can empower others.
[00:17:47] This is Sarah
[00:17:48] and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator
[00:17:50] of the hashtag I Got Out movement.
[00:17:53] Learn more at IGotOut.org.
[00:18:19] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
[00:18:34] What are your self-care non-negotiables?
[00:18:37] Maybe you never skip leg day
[00:18:39] or never miss yoga.
[00:18:40] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.
[00:18:42] I mean, that's my personal
[00:18:43] and everyone's dream, isn't it?
[00:18:45] Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.
[00:18:47] Like I'm in Vancouver right now
[00:18:49] and I'm spending literally as much time
[00:18:50] as I can outside of nature.
[00:18:52] Hashtag, cold pools, hashtag crushing it.
[00:18:55] Nature is a non-negotiable.
[00:18:56] Not enough time in the fresh air
[00:18:57] and the trees around me
[00:18:58] and I start to feel not great,
[00:19:00] not myself, not grounded.
[00:19:01] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.
[00:19:03] I try to not miss it
[00:19:05] and I know I'm just going to feel
[00:19:06] so much better all around
[00:19:07] if I make it a priority.
[00:19:08] I get so much out of it.
[00:19:10] It helps me put my worries
[00:19:11] and anxieties in their rightful place
[00:19:12] and helps me clear my mind
[00:19:14] so I can focus on what I really need
[00:19:15] and sometimes what I don't need.
[00:19:17] Like I don't need to be overbooking myself
[00:19:18] just because I hate to say no to people.
[00:19:20] You know what I mean?
[00:19:20] Thanks, Therapy.
[00:19:21] Thanks for helping me see that.
[00:19:23] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,
[00:19:25] give BetterHelp a try.
[00:19:26] It's entirely online,
[00:19:27] designed to be convenient, flexible,
[00:19:29] and suited to your schedule.
[00:19:30] Just fill out a brief questionnaire
[00:19:31] and get matched with a licensed therapist
[00:19:33] and switch therapists
[00:19:34] any time for no additional charge.
[00:19:36] Look, even when we know
[00:19:38] what makes us happy,
[00:19:39] it's hard to make time for it.
[00:19:40] But when you feel like
[00:19:41] you have no time for yourself,
[00:19:42] non-negotiables like Therapy
[00:19:43] are more important than ever.
[00:19:45] Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp.
[00:19:47] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today
[00:19:49] to get 10% off your first month.
[00:19:51] That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.
[00:19:57] The feeling that I was left with,
[00:19:59] I mean, other than just being like gutted
[00:20:02] and proud and moved by the documentary
[00:20:06] was just like I wanted to know
[00:20:08] where it all stood.
[00:20:09] And what I want to,
[00:20:10] obviously how you are as a person
[00:20:11] which you shared at the beginning,
[00:20:13] what's happening with the Phoenix Act
[00:20:15] and what's the current state of affairs
[00:20:17] that you can share
[00:20:18] because I know there's some legal things you can't.
[00:20:19] Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:20] Well, the investigation I can't speak about
[00:20:22] because it's still active.
[00:20:24] I've taken a step back from things to recharge.
[00:20:28] I felt like from the moment
[00:20:31] I testified in front of Congress
[00:20:33] up until the documentary came out,
[00:20:34] it felt like it was just non-stop.
[00:20:36] And I put so many things aside
[00:20:38] like I was going to direct multiple projects.
[00:20:41] There was all this creative stuff
[00:20:42] and then this other thing came in
[00:20:44] and just everything got put on hold
[00:20:45] and sort of all of my energy went
[00:20:48] there and I do finally feel like
[00:20:50] once the documentary came out,
[00:20:52] it was like, okay.
[00:20:53] Like I've done everything that I can do at this point.
[00:20:56] I just, I feel like I don't know what else I can do.
[00:20:59] I've done it.
[00:21:00] I can rest a bit now.
[00:21:01] Yes, so important.
[00:21:02] Yeah, like oh my god.
[00:21:04] But I will eventually get back on the advocacy train
[00:21:07] and lobbying and because there is a lot of...
[00:21:10] I mean the thing that I learned is,
[00:21:12] you know, it's a lot of it are the laws.
[00:21:15] A lot of it, the way the laws are written,
[00:21:17] the laws that are in place, how outdated they are
[00:21:20] and they are not helping.
[00:21:25] You know, people wonder how there's Harvey Weinstein
[00:21:28] and how there's R. Kelly
[00:21:29] and now there's Cosby
[00:21:31] and now there's like Brian Singer
[00:21:33] and like how does all of this happen
[00:21:35] and so much of it are the limitations of the laws
[00:21:38] and also not teaching people what their rights are.
[00:21:42] Like I didn't know I was on the clock.
[00:21:44] I didn't know that there was a statute of limitations.
[00:21:46] I didn't know what that was.
[00:21:47] I didn't know I had a time limit.
[00:21:50] When you put it like that, it's...
[00:21:51] It is.
[00:21:53] Yeah, it is.
[00:21:53] It's a time limit where you can hold someone accountable
[00:21:56] for abusing you.
[00:21:57] Oh fuck.
[00:21:58] Well yeah and something's only a crime
[00:22:00] for a certain amount of time
[00:22:01] and the reasons why the statute of limitations
[00:22:03] are there are, you know,
[00:22:05] because memory could fade, evidence could deteriorate
[00:22:08] but these laws were written before iPhones,
[00:22:10] before, you know, all these technological advancements
[00:22:14] where it's a lot easier to collect evidence
[00:22:16] is also way harder for it to deteriorate.
[00:22:19] They also have the statute of limitations
[00:22:21] to like leave room for reform
[00:22:23] and I think that's interesting because it's like,
[00:22:26] oh yeah, no totally
[00:22:27] because if people aren't held accountable
[00:22:30] they definitely just get better on their own.
[00:22:32] They don't get worse.
[00:22:34] It's just like clearly it gets worse and escalates
[00:22:38] and if we're not doing anything
[00:22:40] and if we don't have systems in place
[00:22:42] for mental health or rehabilitation,
[00:22:45] why are you assuming that all these people
[00:22:47] are just going to rehabilitate themselves
[00:22:49] and get better and like the crime won't matter
[00:22:52] or like a life hasn't been shattered?
[00:22:54] So some of it, I understand
[00:22:56] but some of it is still not quite computing
[00:22:58] with my brain
[00:22:59] and it also seems intentional
[00:23:01] because there are so many studies about trauma now,
[00:23:05] so much brain science, so much evidence.
[00:23:08] We know sort of like a good time frame
[00:23:11] for how long it kind of takes to process
[00:23:14] and be able to come forward or to feel safe.
[00:23:17] I mean look sometimes it takes people an entire lifetime.
[00:23:20] Sure, it's okay.
[00:23:22] But you know for the most part
[00:23:24] you know it's around like seven to 10 years
[00:23:27] and we know that.
[00:23:29] So to have laws that are one to three years
[00:23:33] it just seems a little intentional.
[00:23:34] It just seems a little like
[00:23:36] oh we're just going to put a...
[00:23:37] Who stands to gain from this?
[00:23:37] Who stands to gain and you know again like
[00:23:40] we don't think like this but psychopaths do
[00:23:43] in that they're going to look up
[00:23:44] what the statute of limitations is
[00:23:46] and they're going to know all right I got a year.
[00:23:49] Oh man I only got to intimidate this person
[00:23:51] for a year, easy, easy for a psychopath
[00:23:55] to like scare somebody until the statute
[00:23:56] of limitations runs out
[00:23:58] especially if you have collateral
[00:23:59] and you have power
[00:23:59] and somebody's scared of you.
[00:24:01] You know it's going to take a very long time.
[00:24:03] I had never considered really that collateral was a thing outside of Nexium
[00:24:08] because it just wasn't like
[00:24:10] you know it just was this crazy thing that he made up.
[00:24:12] Revenge porn.
[00:24:14] Yeah and listen what they had on me is nothing compared to
[00:24:17] what they have on some of the women
[00:24:18] some of whom are still in
[00:24:20] because they haven't reconciled
[00:24:21] that they have been abused
[00:24:23] because they're still stuck in that shame
[00:24:25] and I hope that they watch Phoenix Rising
[00:24:27] because I think that a lot of them could potentially
[00:24:30] we call it waking up
[00:24:31] you know or yeah snapping out of the dream
[00:24:33] or whatever you want to call it.
[00:24:34] It's so hard because when you're in denial
[00:24:37] it doesn't feel like you're actively in denial
[00:24:40] it's not like you're white-knuckling it going
[00:24:42] no I'm not gonna admit it
[00:24:43] you know you're genuinely like
[00:24:45] you're like no this is good for me
[00:24:46] I chose this, I chose it, I chose this
[00:24:48] you're disassociated
[00:24:49] I don't even think I could say the word rape for years
[00:24:52] like it just wouldn't even come out of my mouth
[00:24:55] it's just yeah the reality is just too horrible
[00:24:58] you know
[00:24:58] I meant to ask this earlier but when you were in
[00:25:00] was there anything that people could have said
[00:25:02] knowing what you know now
[00:25:04] that would have gotten you out sooner
[00:25:06] or was it just like the path you had to be on?
[00:25:08] Man honestly like when I first saw the graphic
[00:25:12] for the cycle of violence
[00:25:15] when I started to read about domestic violence
[00:25:18] and human trafficking
[00:25:20] and when I realized that my situation
[00:25:22] was not only not just me and not unique
[00:25:26] but there was like a textbook for it
[00:25:28] there was like a how-to step by step
[00:25:32] that I think that would have done something
[00:25:36] I think people approached me in a shaming way
[00:25:40] and in a what's wrong with you
[00:25:42] how could you be with him
[00:25:44] why aren't you leaving
[00:25:45] you're on drugs
[00:25:46] you know it was very much sort of
[00:25:48] that doesn't work
[00:25:50] it doesn't work
[00:25:51] yeah you know
[00:25:52] and I think a lot of people just thought
[00:25:54] I was on drugs and crazy
[00:25:56] but there's usually an underlying cause for that
[00:25:59] you know it's you know people don't just become
[00:26:02] drug addicts for fun
[00:26:05] there's usually like some serious pain
[00:26:08] they're trying to escape from
[00:26:10] and if people had come to be in more of a
[00:26:13] hey like first of all read this
[00:26:16] second of all like especially
[00:26:19] I don't know if you've ever watched the show
[00:26:20] intervention
[00:26:21] but you see the moment people decide to go
[00:26:24] and it's never when they're able to see the error of their ways
[00:26:29] it's when the people around them are able to admit their dysfunction
[00:26:32] I swear to you
[00:26:33] and I think for me if my family had come to me
[00:26:38] and said
[00:26:39] and not made it about me
[00:26:41] and said
[00:26:42] hey we're really sorry
[00:26:43] I think that would have been a total game changer
[00:26:45] it'd have been like we're all gonna sort of take responsibility
[00:26:48] for our piece of the puzzle here
[00:26:49] and the dysfunction that we modeled
[00:26:51] or the things that we taught you
[00:26:53] or we did not empower you
[00:26:55] we did not give you a voice
[00:26:57] we expected you to be an adult too soon
[00:27:00] we did all of these things
[00:27:02] and we didn't do them on purpose
[00:27:04] like I love my family
[00:27:06] I love my parents
[00:27:07] I know the things that they did were not on purpose
[00:27:09] but we all do dysfunctional things
[00:27:12] and it's how we repair those things
[00:27:14] especially with our children
[00:27:15] that really matters
[00:27:16] and if you're not able to acknowledge those things
[00:27:20] you keep somebody sick in a way
[00:27:23] but if you're able to sort of free them from that pain
[00:27:26] and to acknowledge either your hand in it
[00:27:29] or what they're going through
[00:27:30] then that does so much
[00:27:31] for sure
[00:27:31] it does so much
[00:27:33] that's such good advice
[00:27:34] oh I hope all the parents listening
[00:27:37] put that in their pocket
[00:27:38] I'm listening as a parent
[00:27:40] it's not about yeah
[00:27:41] it's not about blame
[00:27:42] it's not like you were a terrible parent
[00:27:44] it's not that
[00:27:45] and that's like
[00:27:45] you're human
[00:27:46] they're human yeah
[00:27:47] and I know my parents when the documentary came out
[00:27:50] it was hard for them
[00:27:51] and I think it's still hard for them
[00:27:53] some days to feel like
[00:27:55] I don't want to be portrayed in this sort of negative way
[00:27:58] and for the focus to be on all the things that I did wrong
[00:28:01] and I just have to tell them
[00:28:03] look I could make another documentary
[00:28:04] that was about all the things you did right
[00:28:06] for sure
[00:28:06] yeah honestly
[00:28:07] like beautiful things
[00:28:08] clearly you did something right
[00:28:09] I'm alive
[00:28:10] and I burnt it all to the grass
[00:28:12] like you know so like
[00:28:13] yeah
[00:28:14] I'm still a good person
[00:28:15] like you did good
[00:28:16] there's a lot that you built
[00:28:17] because of them
[00:28:18] so much that you built
[00:28:19] if anyone's watching that
[00:28:21] they're gonna understand that
[00:28:22] these people who have been through some sort of trauma
[00:28:24] or they can recognize that your parents are human
[00:28:26] yeah
[00:28:26] they're good parents
[00:28:27] like we're all a product of our experiences
[00:28:29] and the time in which we were born
[00:28:31] and we're all doing our best
[00:28:32] and I know that they both tried really hard
[00:28:35] and in retrospect
[00:28:36] can look back at some things and be like
[00:28:37] oh my god
[00:28:39] yeah of course that would wire you for this
[00:28:42] of course you didn't have a core identity
[00:28:44] and it was easy for you to fall into this stuff
[00:28:46] like you were controlled by adults
[00:28:48] like your whole
[00:28:49] like you were like a little puppet
[00:28:50] like you know like so
[00:28:52] made sense
[00:28:53] I actually think that was one of the
[00:28:54] most emotional
[00:28:55] well one of them
[00:28:56] moments with your dad
[00:28:57] recognizing that he
[00:29:00] wasn't there for you
[00:29:01] when you needed him
[00:29:02] and that you taught him
[00:29:04] how to be there for someone
[00:29:05] and that helped him evolve his empathy
[00:29:08] and I think it's true
[00:29:10] that there's a lot of people
[00:29:11] myself included
[00:29:12] I wouldn't have known how to be
[00:29:13] with somebody in trauma
[00:29:14] until I went through my own trauma
[00:29:15] and now I know
[00:29:16] you just show up
[00:29:17] I had even messaged you that
[00:29:18] when you first came out
[00:29:19] it was like if I was there
[00:29:20] I'd come by with some food
[00:29:22] and we just met
[00:29:23] on Instagram
[00:29:24] but I would hold space
[00:29:25] and I'd bring you some macha
[00:29:27] and whatever you needed
[00:29:28] totally
[00:29:29] yeah and you don't know that
[00:29:30] until you go through it
[00:29:30] like I've seen other people
[00:29:31] go through trauma before
[00:29:32] I'm like oh I guess
[00:29:33] I better just give them some space
[00:29:34] and like stay out of their way
[00:29:35] but no I mean
[00:29:36] everyone needs different things
[00:29:38] but at least to offer that
[00:29:40] yeah because it's a very lonely
[00:29:41] experience
[00:29:42] and at the end of the day
[00:29:43] like people can
[00:29:44] hold your hand and support you
[00:29:45] but you're doing it
[00:29:47] you're alone and at the end of the
[00:29:48] day like it's your brain
[00:29:50] it's your soul
[00:29:51] it's your trauma
[00:29:53] and you have to sort through it
[00:29:56] and you have to do the work every day
[00:29:58] but yeah people ask me
[00:30:00] how'd you get through it
[00:30:01] it's like well you know
[00:30:02] you're never like
[00:30:03] I'm through it I'm done
[00:30:04] you know it's like it's work
[00:30:06] it's work every day to
[00:30:08] fend off the panic and anxiety
[00:30:10] or the PTSD
[00:30:11] or you know repeating patterns
[00:30:13] and yeah holding space for people
[00:30:15] is everything just like
[00:30:17] not trying to fix it
[00:30:19] if you ask for this
[00:30:20] it's a little different
[00:30:21] but like sometimes I'll be
[00:30:23] I'll just need to talk about
[00:30:24] what I'm going through
[00:30:25] I'll just need to talk about it
[00:30:26] with somebody
[00:30:27] and you know sometimes their response is like
[00:30:29] yeah but you know
[00:30:30] try to focus on you know
[00:30:31] some of the good stuff
[00:30:31] and like you know
[00:30:32] let's not dwell on this
[00:30:34] and let's you know
[00:30:34] let's move on for you know
[00:30:35] and you're like
[00:30:36] I understand that's very well
[00:30:37] intentioned
[00:30:38] but like I can't just
[00:30:42] if I could just like flip a switch
[00:30:44] and and just not think about this
[00:30:45] and be happy like I would do it
[00:30:47] but I just need to talk about it
[00:30:48] in process
[00:30:49] and if I need cheering up
[00:30:51] or a distraction
[00:30:52] I'll tell people I'll say
[00:30:53] like please just come over
[00:30:54] and distract me
[00:30:55] let's just like have fun
[00:30:56] and I want to forget stuff
[00:30:57] but sometimes you just need to sit in it
[00:30:59] and it's uncomfortable
[00:31:00] it's very very uncomfortable
[00:31:01] for people to sit
[00:31:02] in that with somebody
[00:31:03] because it's sad
[00:31:07] it's not it's not fun
[00:31:09] I was actually really impressed
[00:31:10] with how clearly therapy
[00:31:12] but also self-education
[00:31:14] you went through
[00:31:15] to even
[00:31:16] like the documentary
[00:31:17] really laid out the steps
[00:31:18] you really laid out the love bombing
[00:31:20] and the grooming
[00:31:21] and all the tactics
[00:31:22] was there a particular resource
[00:31:24] in your therapy
[00:31:24] and your healing
[00:31:25] that that led you to that
[00:31:26] or was it an amalgamation of
[00:31:28] different things
[00:31:28] I was in amalgamation
[00:31:29] there was a few people that really
[00:31:31] opened the door
[00:31:33] for me
[00:31:34] and Tandy Way Newton
[00:31:37] saw
[00:31:38] she just
[00:31:39] I wasn't I didn't tell anybody
[00:31:40] what had happened
[00:31:41] but like
[00:31:42] just the same way
[00:31:43] you can spot
[00:31:45] a perpetrator easier
[00:31:46] you can also spot a victim
[00:31:48] or somebody like going through it
[00:31:49] and I think she just could see
[00:31:52] something
[00:31:53] she felt it
[00:31:53] she felt it
[00:31:54] and she introduced me to Eve Ensler
[00:31:56] who wrote The Apology
[00:31:57] and the Vagina Monologues
[00:31:58] and Desvidé
[00:32:00] and is just brilliant
[00:32:02] she was the first person that I
[00:32:04] well one of the first people
[00:32:05] that I barely knew
[00:32:07] that I like
[00:32:08] told my story to
[00:32:09] and she was one of the first people
[00:32:11] that said I believe you
[00:32:12] and then I started
[00:32:14] sort of
[00:32:14] following her work
[00:32:16] and her journey
[00:32:17] The Apology is an incredible book to read
[00:32:21] if you've
[00:32:22] you know been through a kind of trauma
[00:32:23] and had a reconcile with
[00:32:24] never getting an apology
[00:32:26] never getting Josh to read that
[00:32:27] you know it's like
[00:32:28] oh it's really good
[00:32:30] really really good
[00:32:30] especially like
[00:32:31] you know
[00:32:32] your perpetrator was like huge
[00:32:34] narcissist
[00:32:35] and like
[00:32:36] nobody else could see it
[00:32:37] but you
[00:32:38] and then I
[00:32:39] I followed a lot of amazing advocates
[00:32:41] online
[00:32:42] and then I would reach out to them
[00:32:43] and then
[00:32:44] I would talk to them
[00:32:46] and learn from them
[00:32:47] and I would go to
[00:32:49] like the California partnership
[00:32:50] to end domestic violence
[00:32:52] and California is amazing
[00:32:53] I joined that
[00:32:54] I would go to
[00:32:56] the talks
[00:32:57] and I would hear from
[00:32:59] survivors from all walks of life
[00:33:01] different backgrounds
[00:33:03] different communities
[00:33:04] how the problem affects
[00:33:05] different people
[00:33:07] in different ways
[00:33:09] sort of
[00:33:10] the learning from
[00:33:11] the mistakes of the past
[00:33:12] talking to perpetrators
[00:33:14] talking to reformed abusers
[00:33:15] you know it's like
[00:33:16] I kind of just like
[00:33:17] had to look at the
[00:33:19] scope of the
[00:33:20] issue from every different angle
[00:33:21] especially when you're going to
[00:33:23] pass legislation
[00:33:24] you can't just be like
[00:33:25] here's a law that works for me
[00:33:27] a pretty white girl
[00:33:30] like it's like no
[00:33:31] like it has to work for everybody
[00:33:32] and so you have to study it from all sides
[00:33:35] and that helped
[00:33:36] just understand
[00:33:38] hey there listener
[00:33:39] hope you're enjoying this episode
[00:33:41] and that you're taking deep breaths
[00:33:42] when we cover the
[00:33:43] enraging stuff that cult jerks are up to
[00:33:46] let it out
[00:33:47] as in the yoga practice
[00:33:48] inhale positivity
[00:33:49] exhale negativity
[00:33:50] that's for you Sarah
[00:33:51] we got this
[00:33:52] no hulking it out
[00:33:53] all you will hulksters
[00:33:54] and if you need some helpful resources
[00:33:56] on the topic of cult recovery
[00:33:57] check out our website
[00:33:58] at a littlebitculti.com
[00:34:00] and now here's a brief message
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[00:34:32] in our local communities at Macy's
[00:34:35] the frankies were a picture
[00:34:36] perfect influencer family
[00:34:38] but everything wasn't
[00:34:40] as it seemed
[00:34:42] I just had a 12 year old boy
[00:34:43] still up here asking for help
[00:34:46] he's emaciated
[00:34:47] he's got tape around his legs
[00:34:50] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name
[00:34:52] infamous is covering Ruby Frankie
[00:34:55] the world of Mormonism
[00:34:56] and a secret therapy group
[00:34:58] that ruined lives
[00:35:00] listen to infamous wherever you get your podcasts
[00:35:07] where did the cults
[00:35:08] connection come in for you
[00:35:09] it's funny I was reading something
[00:35:11] about the cult of one
[00:35:12] and it was breaking down abusive relationships
[00:35:15] and domestic violence
[00:35:16] and comparing it to similar tactics
[00:35:19] used in a cult
[00:35:22] but honestly
[00:35:23] it was listening to other people's stories
[00:35:25] it was listening to you guys' story
[00:35:26] it was listening to the people that
[00:35:29] escaped Scientology
[00:35:31] there's a really crazy documentary
[00:35:33] called Every Fucking Day of My Life
[00:35:35] I don't know if you
[00:35:35] I'm not yet
[00:35:36] I watched that
[00:35:37] says it all
[00:35:39] it says it all right
[00:35:40] and it's the senders around a woman
[00:35:43] who fought back
[00:35:44] and actually killed her abuser
[00:35:45] when I went to jail
[00:35:46] yeah and it was like one of the most
[00:35:48] like horrific domestic violence situations
[00:35:51] that the courts had seen
[00:35:53] but they still had to send her to jail
[00:35:55] because you can't kill people
[00:35:56] and the opening is the 911 call
[00:35:59] and she's you know saying
[00:36:00] I killed them
[00:36:01] and you have to send help
[00:36:03] and they said
[00:36:03] did he ever abuse you
[00:36:04] and she said Every Fucking Day of My Life
[00:36:07] and it was just like
[00:36:08] goosh
[00:36:09] like I mean that's a
[00:36:10] that's a really amazing documentary to watch
[00:36:13] but I devour self-help
[00:36:15] people ask me
[00:36:17] so do you watch movies like what are you
[00:36:19] I was like no I don't watch movies
[00:36:20] I watch documentaries and I read
[00:36:21] self-help constantly
[00:36:23] what are your favorite self-help books
[00:36:25] I loved let's see
[00:36:28] Conversations with God is what I read
[00:36:30] when I was in
[00:36:32] really yeah
[00:36:32] when I went into the psych ward
[00:36:35] after trying to take my own life
[00:36:37] years ago
[00:36:38] my mother put that book on my bedside table
[00:36:40] and it like changed
[00:36:42] a lot of things for me
[00:36:43] during that time
[00:36:44] and then the four agreements
[00:36:46] clearly classic
[00:36:48] I really recently am on like an
[00:36:51] a Yanla Van Sant kick
[00:36:52] I don't know if you've ever watched her show
[00:36:55] no
[00:36:56] she's got a show called
[00:36:57] Yanla Fixed My Life
[00:36:59] it's great
[00:36:59] I love what she does
[00:37:00] because her approach
[00:37:02] to the problem
[00:37:03] is not always just a one-on-one
[00:37:05] with the person
[00:37:06] she brings in the entire family
[00:37:08] mm-hmm
[00:37:08] so she'll work with a whole family
[00:37:11] for like either a weekend
[00:37:12] or a week
[00:37:13] and she will find the root
[00:37:16] of all the dysfunction
[00:37:17] and how
[00:37:18] everybody's mirroring each other's traumas
[00:37:20] what got passed on to who
[00:37:22] even if like
[00:37:24] parent has been estranged
[00:37:25] from their child their whole life
[00:37:26] they're still like repeating
[00:37:28] each other's patterns
[00:37:29] it's bananas how deeply ingrained
[00:37:32] some things are
[00:37:33] even just in our DNA
[00:37:34] it's in the very fabric of our being
[00:37:36] and we will unconsciously repeat things
[00:37:39] without realizing it
[00:37:40] and that was a huge
[00:37:42] we need to watch that
[00:37:43] and it
[00:37:43] oh you would
[00:37:44] it's very
[00:37:45] very addicting
[00:37:46] it's very very addicting
[00:37:47] none of this means anything
[00:37:49] to us me
[00:37:50] my story
[00:37:51] if we can't turn it into some sort of
[00:37:52] content or wisdom
[00:37:53] and what do you think your wisdom
[00:37:55] or content is
[00:37:56] if you could summarize it
[00:37:58] I don't know man
[00:37:59] we've we've still got so much work to do
[00:38:00] with how people view
[00:38:02] domestic violence
[00:38:03] God just go back into the history of it
[00:38:06] really
[00:38:06] I mean
[00:38:07] the fact that
[00:38:08] it used to be legal
[00:38:10] should just tell you like
[00:38:11] why we are where we are
[00:38:13] and why the laws don't protect victims
[00:38:16] I think we have to empower people a lot
[00:38:18] more and teach people their rights
[00:38:20] and there's a lot of
[00:38:22] I
[00:38:23] you're saying you're allergic to self-help
[00:38:24] I'm very allergic to performative activism now
[00:38:28] after like
[00:38:29] and I used to do it
[00:38:30] like I get it
[00:38:31] I totally get it
[00:38:33] and like I'll bring it up now
[00:38:35] and I'll be like look I'm really not
[00:38:37] it's like it's not that I think this person's
[00:38:38] bad or stupid
[00:38:40] it's just
[00:38:41] after going through the legislative process
[00:38:44] and seeing
[00:38:45] what is necessary
[00:38:46] seeing the roadblocks
[00:38:47] understanding how things work
[00:38:48] what actually needs to be done
[00:38:50] I can't do the like
[00:38:53] performative outrage
[00:38:55] on Instagram anymore
[00:38:57] you know without some kind of action behind it
[00:38:59] and that's why I won't normally
[00:39:02] comment on things unless I'm actively
[00:39:04] doing something
[00:39:05] to help if I'm like on the ground
[00:39:07] if I've got my like
[00:39:09] fingers in the dirt
[00:39:10] otherwise it's just like you're still just like
[00:39:12] yelling for other people to do the work for you
[00:39:14] and I like
[00:39:15] I think people really have to wake up to the fact that like
[00:39:17] no one's gonna do it for you
[00:39:19] and if you're upset about it
[00:39:20] like you have to get on the ground
[00:39:22] like get into the Capitol
[00:39:24] not in that way
[00:39:26] like you know
[00:39:26] in the legal sense
[00:39:28] actually
[00:39:28] knock on the door
[00:39:29] yeah don't
[00:39:30] don't
[00:39:30] you know yes yes
[00:39:31] but like you actually have a lot more
[00:39:33] power than you realize
[00:39:35] and that's what this taught me
[00:39:36] is that we do have more power
[00:39:38] we just haven't been taught how to use it
[00:39:40] we've been purposely disempowered
[00:39:42] and like
[00:39:43] you got to get in there
[00:39:44] like you just you got to get in there
[00:39:46] you can't just post on Instagram anymore
[00:39:47] we're we're past that
[00:39:49] like
[00:39:50] and they
[00:39:51] they
[00:39:52] rely on
[00:39:53] you know us putting up a black square
[00:39:55] or like wearing an armband
[00:39:57] or something and being like
[00:39:58] I did it
[00:39:59] you know it's like
[00:40:00] that's not it
[00:40:01] that is a very
[00:40:02] very small piece
[00:40:04] of a very big puzzle
[00:40:05] and it takes work
[00:40:07] and it takes time
[00:40:08] it's going to take away from your life
[00:40:10] it will take away from your family
[00:40:12] it will take away from things
[00:40:14] that you would rather be doing
[00:40:16] and like
[00:40:17] you have to get comfortable
[00:40:18] with the fact that you're going to be uncomfortable
[00:40:21] and you know if you really want to see change
[00:40:23] like you got
[00:40:24] it takes time and energy
[00:40:25] I think we're both allergic
[00:40:26] Nipi and I are both allergic to that
[00:40:28] so
[00:40:28] yeah 100%
[00:40:30] my other question is
[00:40:30] and listen we can cut this if it's
[00:40:32] it's too personal but
[00:40:33] I couldn't help but
[00:40:35] feel the connection is on the right word
[00:40:37] but when I saw your brand
[00:40:39] oh I was gonna say like
[00:40:40] I'm gonna cry too
[00:40:41] we buried the lead didn't we
[00:40:43] yeah
[00:40:43] but I was like
[00:40:44] I looked at it I was like
[00:40:46] what the fuck
[00:40:46] and I just wondered
[00:40:47] have you removed it
[00:40:48] or have you done anything with it
[00:40:50] you cover it or
[00:40:50] I was actually gonna ask you
[00:40:52] if you had any tips
[00:40:52] I do
[00:40:53] that's what I wanted to offer you
[00:40:56] yeah
[00:40:57] yeah no it's still
[00:40:59] I haven't I haven't done anything yet
[00:41:01] it's still there
[00:41:02] I'm removing some of the tattoos
[00:41:05] but I've consulted with some people about it
[00:41:07] like I've heard you can do like
[00:41:09] laser treatments
[00:41:10] or you can cut it off and kind of
[00:41:13] I don't know like
[00:41:14] what are you what are you doing
[00:41:15] well I'm so glad you're open to talking
[00:41:18] about this because it's when I wanted to
[00:41:19] oh yeah
[00:41:20] as soon as I saw it
[00:41:21] for many years
[00:41:22] for the first three years
[00:41:23] I was cream
[00:41:24] I would creams
[00:41:25] I did a number of injections
[00:41:26] to make the keloid go down
[00:41:28] I got it from being quite like
[00:41:29] puffy you know what you see in
[00:41:31] like on the internet
[00:41:32] if you google like what my brand looked
[00:41:33] like it was quite puffy
[00:41:34] and keloid and quite red
[00:41:36] and so I got it white and flat
[00:41:37] and eventually
[00:41:38] I saw a plastic surgeon
[00:41:39] just to see what my options were
[00:41:40] and she said also you can laser it
[00:41:42] but it'll always be there
[00:41:43] it'll just be more faint
[00:41:45] and I found an incredible
[00:41:46] plastic surgeon
[00:41:47] through a friend who's in the industry
[00:41:48] here in Vancouver
[00:41:49] who I realized
[00:41:50] did the dirty work for me
[00:41:51] which is I'd never consulted
[00:41:52] because I don't have to explain to
[00:41:53] somebody what had happened to me
[00:41:54] I just didn't have that in me
[00:41:56] and luckily this friend of mine told
[00:41:58] one of her colleagues who happened to be
[00:41:59] the best plastic surgeon in Vancouver
[00:42:01] what had happened
[00:42:02] so I could just go in and show her
[00:42:03] and then she's like well
[00:42:04] what we can do
[00:42:05] and this is what I ended up doing
[00:42:06] as if you can imagine
[00:42:07] if our listeners like
[00:42:08] you know the brand was like a square
[00:42:09] it was about this big
[00:42:10] and she literally cut out
[00:42:13] like an eye around it
[00:42:15] and just you know cut it out
[00:42:17] and then sewed it back together
[00:42:19] can I show you
[00:42:20] take a picture of it
[00:42:20] yeah oh if you don't mind
[00:42:22] that's what I
[00:42:23] that's what I was hoping
[00:42:24] it was a thing
[00:42:25] it was a thing
[00:42:26] and it was not so bad
[00:42:27] and it was very well thought out
[00:42:29] and I had a friend who's
[00:42:30] a very spiritual friend of Lise come over
[00:42:32] and she did like a whole little
[00:42:34] you know intentional thing
[00:42:36] I don't even know what you call it
[00:42:37] like a mantra
[00:42:38] or like a
[00:42:39] you know why I'm choosing to do this
[00:42:40] like a
[00:42:41] as a very pivotal moment in my healing
[00:42:43] and that's what I'm going to show you
[00:42:44] if I can get the camera
[00:42:45] on the right spot
[00:42:46] oh my god
[00:42:47] it's going
[00:42:47] it's going
[00:42:47] like flying
[00:42:48] that's amazing
[00:42:49] that's what's left of it
[00:42:50] it almost looks like a
[00:42:51] scissor and scar
[00:42:52] but it's very faint now
[00:42:53] like you'd never notice it
[00:42:55] wow
[00:42:55] my appendix scars worse than that
[00:42:57] wow I'm so happy for you
[00:42:59] because I'm happy too
[00:43:01] oh my god that's got to feel so good
[00:43:03] I really
[00:43:04] yeah because
[00:43:05] but
[00:43:05] but even though it was flat
[00:43:06] I could still in the mirror
[00:43:07] I could still see k.r
[00:43:09] and I just didn't want that
[00:43:10] on my body anymore
[00:43:11] and I'm sure there's people who do it
[00:43:12] there
[00:43:12] but if you ever happen to be in
[00:43:13] Vancouver
[00:43:14] and you want a surgeon
[00:43:14] I can connect you
[00:43:16] that would be amazing
[00:43:17] yeah I would really appreciate that
[00:43:19] I clearly do not want this on my body
[00:43:22] you know it's weird
[00:43:23] I know all the years that I've had it
[00:43:25] only one person ever asked about it
[00:43:27] really
[00:43:29] wow
[00:43:30] only one
[00:43:32] yeah like you know with like
[00:43:33] intimate partners and things
[00:43:34] you know it's like
[00:43:35] I yeah I was kind of surprised
[00:43:37] like no one
[00:43:39] brought it up
[00:43:39] one person
[00:43:41] immediately was like
[00:43:42] is that a brand
[00:43:43] you know it's like
[00:43:43] what do you say
[00:43:44] like what do you
[00:43:45] what do you say
[00:43:46] I would just say like
[00:43:46] it's not a good story
[00:43:48] I don't really want to talk about it
[00:43:49] it's not a great story
[00:43:50] and then we just kind of
[00:43:52] you know move on
[00:43:53] but yeah I thought that was really
[00:43:54] interesting that was one of the most
[00:43:55] horrifying moments when I realized
[00:43:57] that so many of us had them
[00:43:59] he did it to a lot of women
[00:44:00] you know
[00:44:01] it's coercion
[00:44:02] you know it's like that coercion
[00:44:03] and fraud thing
[00:44:04] where you think it's just you
[00:44:06] and you're doing this thing
[00:44:07] with the person that you love
[00:44:08] and then you realize like
[00:44:10] oh you were just told the same thing
[00:44:12] as a bunch of other people
[00:44:13] and this is like a total
[00:44:15] scam to get you branded
[00:44:17] and that was like a horrifying
[00:44:20] moment
[00:44:21] and that's when I
[00:44:22] yeah I thought about
[00:44:23] you guys and felt so connected to you
[00:44:26] and even just the placement of your brand
[00:44:28] and I felt so many things
[00:44:30] and so yeah
[00:44:31] I'm really glad that there's a way to
[00:44:33] take it that off
[00:44:33] Yeah there is and it healed really quickly
[00:44:36] and it was a very empowering decision
[00:44:38] yeah I can't wait
[00:44:39] I feel like that's gonna be
[00:44:41] a big day
[00:44:42] a big day
[00:44:43] it was already like a big day
[00:44:44] kind of like starting to get some of
[00:44:46] the tattoos removed
[00:44:48] but yeah the brand
[00:44:50] that has to go
[00:44:51] this has got to go
[00:44:52] but it's evidence right now
[00:44:53] right well actually that was one of the things
[00:44:54] your body is the crime totally
[00:44:56] in many ways I felt like
[00:44:58] you know
[00:44:58] there wasn't even a choice to have it
[00:45:00] because I needed to be able to say
[00:45:02] look this is what happened
[00:45:02] hey
[00:45:03] this is what happened
[00:45:04] look guys
[00:45:05] you know and I got shit for that
[00:45:06] like
[00:45:06] that I was being a exhibitionist
[00:45:08] or looking for attention or whatever
[00:45:10] I'm like no no
[00:45:11] this is
[00:45:11] I don't understand that
[00:45:12] oh yeah because that's totally the kind of attention
[00:45:15] exactly
[00:45:17] exactly
[00:45:19] you have no idea
[00:45:20] the ignorant spot
[00:45:20] you have an idea
[00:45:22] you have an idea
[00:45:23] yeah nobody wants this kind of attention
[00:45:25] nobody
[00:45:25] yeah like one thing that was said about me
[00:45:27] it's just like
[00:45:28] oh yeah like she's just
[00:45:29] wants to get people to stop
[00:45:31] like associating her with this person
[00:45:33] and I'm like
[00:45:34] oh yeah so the
[00:45:35] so the way to do that
[00:45:36] is to draw as much attention to it as possible
[00:45:39] because that makes sense
[00:45:40] it's like before I came forward
[00:45:42] it was like
[00:45:42] people had just stopped talking about it
[00:45:45] like you have no idea how hard
[00:45:47] it was
[00:45:48] I mean you do
[00:45:49] but I mean like other people like
[00:45:50] how hard it was to accept the fact that by doing this
[00:45:53] to help other people
[00:45:55] because I still don't even know if like
[00:45:58] I don't think I've been in the statute of limitations
[00:46:01] so that it stops like
[00:46:02] future abuse and helps like current victims
[00:46:05] you know to be like
[00:46:07] now when you google my name
[00:46:09] it's me and him
[00:46:10] like it's me and him
[00:46:12] and
[00:46:12] I had just gotten to a point where it was just me
[00:46:15] and so to do this meant
[00:46:17] I was going back
[00:46:19] in many ways
[00:46:20] and so no
[00:46:22] it wasn't
[00:46:25] it wasn't to get like fame
[00:46:26] or clout or money
[00:46:28] like all of that's hilarious
[00:46:29] it's like all the fame that you don't want
[00:46:31] I've never spent more money in my life
[00:46:33] you know like
[00:46:34] everybody's remembering all the things
[00:46:36] I don't want them to remember
[00:46:37] everybody's watching the video of me getting assaulted online
[00:46:40] it's like none of these things
[00:46:42] are what you want
[00:46:43] no
[00:46:43] you know
[00:46:44] it's just necessary
[00:46:45] especially where we are right now
[00:46:46] in the world to do this
[00:46:48] and if they're going to burn the witch
[00:46:49] they're going to burn the witch
[00:46:50] but like
[00:46:51] we'll get there eventually
[00:46:52] and when we look back and we study this time
[00:46:54] they're going to go
[00:46:55] oh shit
[00:46:55] there were a lot of people trying to tell us
[00:46:57] that something was wrong
[00:46:58] and
[00:46:59] we burned them
[00:47:02] and
[00:47:02] and we've learned
[00:47:03] we've come a long way now
[00:47:04] can you look at the way that we used to like
[00:47:06] treat these people
[00:47:07] is what I'm hoping for
[00:47:08] you know
[00:47:09] just to be on the right side of history
[00:47:11] you are definitely on the right side of history
[00:47:13] and it's
[00:47:14] have goosebumps
[00:47:15] just like
[00:47:16] with the meaningfulness
[00:47:18] for me of this conversation
[00:47:19] and to be aligned
[00:47:21] with you as an advocate is
[00:47:22] really meaningful
[00:47:23] so thank you
[00:47:24] well thank you guys
[00:47:25] because
[00:47:25] you guys were such a huge inspiration
[00:47:28] for me
[00:47:29] and
[00:47:29] I know some of the other survivors
[00:47:30] watching
[00:47:31] what you guys went through
[00:47:32] and how brave you were
[00:47:34] and
[00:47:34] I remember hearing things about
[00:47:36] the cult
[00:47:36] and what had happened
[00:47:37] but
[00:47:38] you don't understand
[00:47:39] until you watch
[00:47:40] that long form
[00:47:41] storytelling
[00:47:42] and you really get personal
[00:47:43] with people
[00:47:43] you really see the journey
[00:47:45] and
[00:47:45] I had such a deeper understanding
[00:47:48] of not just what you went through
[00:47:49] but just these power dynamics in general
[00:47:51] and
[00:47:52] it really lit fire under my ass
[00:47:55] and it made me less ashamed
[00:47:57] and
[00:47:57] it made me feel like
[00:47:59] there was something that we could do
[00:48:00] and
[00:48:01] oh my god
[00:48:01] if I could
[00:48:02] get a documentary made
[00:48:04] and
[00:48:04] tell people
[00:48:05] not the whole story
[00:48:06] you know
[00:48:07] because there's always so much more
[00:48:08] but like
[00:48:09] give it to them in a way that's digestible
[00:48:11] that they can start
[00:48:12] to understand
[00:48:12] what this is
[00:48:13] you know
[00:48:14] then
[00:48:14] like I feel like I've done something good
[00:48:16] so thank
[00:48:16] you guys
[00:48:18] for
[00:48:18] getting out
[00:48:19] and for
[00:48:20] not stopping
[00:48:21] the fight
[00:48:22] and you know
[00:48:23] doing all the work that you did
[00:48:24] like especially after going through
[00:48:26] what I've
[00:48:26] gone through
[00:48:27] I know
[00:48:28] how
[00:48:29] hard that is
[00:48:30] so
[00:48:31] it's really amazing
[00:48:32] what you guys are doing
[00:48:32] and thanks for sharing
[00:48:33] thank you
[00:48:34] one final thought to end on
[00:48:36] you say to your child
[00:48:37] at the end
[00:48:38] the good guys win
[00:48:40] and what we've always said to Troy
[00:48:41] is our version of that
[00:48:42] which is light wins
[00:48:43] light always triumphs over dark
[00:48:45] in the end
[00:48:46] yeah
[00:48:47] but it's that the evil never dies
[00:48:50] but
[00:48:51] evil never wins
[00:48:52] there's a better
[00:48:54] phrasing for it
[00:48:55] but yeah
[00:48:55] it's something that it's like no
[00:48:56] it's not that the evil wins
[00:48:58] it's just that it never dies
[00:48:59] and so you have to keep fighting
[00:49:00] but
[00:49:00] light prevails
[00:49:02] it's a good message for our children
[00:49:03] amazing
[00:49:04] well
[00:49:05] we keep in touch
[00:49:06] and virtual high five for now
[00:49:08] and thanks again
[00:49:09] same
[00:49:10] Fizzbomb
[00:49:10] that was a Fizzbomb
[00:49:11] yeah
[00:49:12] okay
[00:49:13] okay
[00:49:26] that was part two of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood
[00:49:28] let us know what you think
[00:49:29] come hang out with us on Instagram
[00:49:31] or leave us a voicemail over on our website
[00:49:33] at alittlebitculti.com
[00:49:35] and just know
[00:49:36] that anything you say
[00:49:37] or do
[00:49:37] maybe held
[00:49:38] no I was kidding
[00:49:39] anything you say
[00:49:41] or do
[00:49:41] on our voicemail line
[00:49:43] might get played on the podcast
[00:49:44] you never know
[00:49:45] that's going to be fun
[00:49:46] and be sure to join us over on Patreon
[00:49:48] if you want to hear us unpack
[00:49:49] the Evan episode a little bit more
[00:49:52] and you'll also get some other hot bonus content
[00:49:54] and there may or may not be an imitation of Keith
[00:49:57] coming down the pipeline
[00:49:58] just gonna
[00:49:59] drop that out
[00:50:00] just clap that seat oh guys
[00:50:01] it's so good
[00:50:02] yeah
[00:50:03] y'all don't want to miss that
[00:50:04] y'all don't
[00:50:05] y'all don't
[00:50:05] hell no
[00:50:07] okay we're serving up some fun
[00:50:09] unfiltered and exclusive extras there
[00:50:11] from word salads
[00:50:12] you guys remember that part
[00:50:13] and signed merch
[00:50:15] to VIP access
[00:50:16] to our special
[00:50:17] The Vile Season 2 episode
[00:50:19] starting at five dollars a month
[00:50:20] so if you're already one
[00:50:21] of our monthly patrons on donor box
[00:50:23] and you're hearing this
[00:50:24] come over to Patreon if you want
[00:50:26] it's going to be fun over there
[00:50:27] Nippy might even drop some football knowledge
[00:50:28] and I'm just going to give some
[00:50:30] unsolicited advice about
[00:50:32] how to live your life
[00:50:32] let the season marinate a little bit more before I start
[00:50:35] yeah
[00:50:35] but there's some things coming out
[00:50:37] because why not
[00:50:38] we're already over there
[00:50:39] come on over to Patreon
[00:50:40] if you want
[00:50:41] it's going to be fun
[00:50:42] it's going to be
[00:50:43] lit
[00:50:44] it's going to be lava
[00:50:45] as the kids say
[00:50:46] no they're saying lava now
[00:50:47] oh really
[00:50:48] that's what I heard
[00:50:49] lit's no longer a thing
[00:50:50] well lit
[00:50:50] but lava is like hot too
[00:50:52] Troy always says let's go
[00:50:55] that's a Tom Brady thing
[00:50:56] is it Tom Brady?
[00:50:57] yeah
[00:50:57] Tom Brady says let's go
[00:50:59] well they all say let's go
[00:51:00] it's not that original
[00:51:01] but like it's the way that he says it
[00:51:02] it's like oh yeah let's go
[00:51:04] yeah
[00:51:04] the emphasis is there
[00:51:06] all right
[00:51:06] see you over there
[00:51:07] on Patreon
[00:51:08] let's go
[00:51:09] and until next time
[00:51:10] don't join a cult
[00:51:11] bye
[00:51:12] TVT
[00:51:23] I hope you liked this episode
[00:51:33] let's keep the conversation going
[00:51:35] and come hang out with us on Patreon
[00:51:36] where we keep the tape rolling each week
[00:51:38] special episodes just for Patreon subscribers
[00:51:41] and where we get deep into the weeds
[00:51:43] of unpacking every episode of the vow
[00:51:45] and if you're looking for our show notes
[00:51:46] or some sweet sweet swag
[00:51:47] or official ALBC podcast merch
[00:51:50] or a list of our most recommended
[00:51:51] cult recovery resources
[00:51:53] visit our website
[00:51:54] at alilibitculti.com
[00:51:56] and for more background on what brought us here
[00:51:58] check out Sarah's page-turning memoir
[00:52:00] it's called Scarred
[00:52:01] the true story of how I escaped nexium
[00:52:02] the cult that found my life
[00:52:04] it's available on amazon audible
[00:52:05] narrated by my wife
[00:52:07] and at most bookstores
[00:52:08] Alilibit Culti is a talkhouse podcast
[00:52:11] and a Trace 120 production
[00:52:13] we're executive produced by
[00:52:14] Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Niphy Ames
[00:52:16] with writing, research and additional
[00:52:18] production support
[00:52:19] by senior producer Jess Tardy
[00:52:21] we're edited, mixed and mastered
[00:52:23] by our rocking producer Will Rutherford
[00:52:25] of Citizens of Sound
[00:52:26] and our amazing theme song Cultivated
[00:52:28] is by John Bryant
[00:52:29] and co-written by Nigel Asselin
[00:52:31] thank you for listening