Big Phoenix Energy: Actor, Activist & Badass Evan Rachel Wood (Part 2)

[00:00:00] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit cultier, those are the hosts.

[00:00:03] And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast, right Sarah?

[00:00:07] Correct.

[00:00:08] Any of the quote fire content, I prefer lava content, provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors,

[00:00:14] or authors of the opinion and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization,

[00:00:20] business individual, anyone or anything unless Sarah?

[00:00:23] You're a douchebag.

[00:00:24] Yeah, I mean pretty much.

[00:00:26] Also we're not doctors, psychologists, or wizards.

[00:00:29] We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly and formative podcast based

[00:00:33] on our experience that we've turned into wisdom.

[00:00:35] Okay, good talk.

[00:00:36] Okay.

[00:00:47] Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:00:49] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty,

[00:00:56] aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:01] We've been there and back again.

[00:01:02] A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult.

[00:01:07] And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.

[00:01:09] The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season.

[00:01:14] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how

[00:01:19] I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:21] Look at us, a couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night

[00:01:26] where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control.

[00:01:30] Oh wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe.

[00:01:33] We got to schedule that, that's separate.

[00:01:34] So it's two days we gotta hang out?

[00:01:36] We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium.

[00:01:41] Still on that journey and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help

[00:01:44] of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:01:46] We know all too well that culty things happen.

[00:01:48] It happens to people every day across every walk of life.

[00:01:51] So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating

[00:01:55] to mega churches and multi-level marketing.

[00:01:57] This stuff really is everywhere.

[00:01:59] The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we.

[00:02:03] Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie,

[00:02:05] serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms.

[00:02:10] Learn more at alittlebitculti.com.

[00:02:19] Hey ALBC listeners, here's part two of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood,

[00:02:34] who is a pretty phenomenal actor and a force to be reckoned with in the activism

[00:02:37] and human rights world now.

[00:02:39] 100%. Also on her resume, most likely to be hideously trolled by the Marilyn Manson

[00:02:44] Stands of the World.

[00:02:45] If you haven't listened to part one, back that ass up.

[00:02:47] This is a two-parter.

[00:02:48] Repeat, this is a two-parter.

[00:02:51] Evan Rachel Wood is chatting with us about her journey from Starlet to survivor

[00:02:55] to activist and how she's doing now that her story has gone wide.

[00:02:59] Make sure you watch Phoenix Rising on HBO if you haven't already.

[00:03:02] It's a gut-wrenching but beautifully made docu-series by Amy Berg,

[00:03:05] who is Oscar nominated filmmaker behind Deliver Us from Evil,

[00:03:08] a documentary about the sex abuse cases in the Catholic Church

[00:03:11] and the Emmy nominated docu-series The Case Against Adnan Said,

[00:03:15] which most people know about from the serial podcast,

[00:03:17] which is like the granddaddy of True Chime podcast really, right?

[00:03:20] And again, an important note for our listeners and our lawyers

[00:03:24] that Marilyn Manson has repeatedly denied the multiple sexual assault allegations.

[00:03:28] So strangely, who deny that?

[00:03:29] Yes, and has recently sued Evan for defamation over the accusations,

[00:03:33] claiming it's all part of an elaborate quote-unquote organized attack.

[00:03:36] Because she's got nothing else to do.

[00:03:38] There we said it.

[00:03:39] Marilyn Manson categorically denies all of it.

[00:03:42] Okay, whatever buddy.

[00:03:43] Yeah, okay.

[00:03:43] And again, conversations like the one you're about to hear

[00:03:46] can be traumatizing for abused survivors.

[00:03:48] So please listen to this episode with caution

[00:03:50] and if you or anyone you know needs support,

[00:03:52] you can reach out to the rape, abuse and incest national network, RAINN.

[00:03:56] The organization provides free confidential support to sexual assault victims

[00:04:00] or call their hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE or CRCITE for some links

[00:04:05] to critical resources at a little bitculti.com.

[00:04:08] And we aren't journalists or forensic psychologists,

[00:04:11] and we can be partial if we want to,

[00:04:13] so we are unapologetically partial to her.

[00:04:16] So eat it, weirdos of the dark web.

[00:04:19] Eat it.

[00:04:20] Everyone else come hang out with us on Patreon after this.

[00:04:22] We'll tell you what we really think

[00:04:25] in our After Evan bonus episode

[00:04:27] for a little bitculti Patreon subscribers only.

[00:04:29] This season, we're going to be unpacking things over on Patreon

[00:04:32] in a slightly looser format

[00:04:33] and you can get access to those post-episode musings

[00:04:36] plus other fun bonus content every month.

[00:04:38] There are some cool rewards and tiers starting at $5 a month.

[00:04:41] And I know that tiers and members-only content

[00:04:43] in exchange for cash feels a little bit culti,

[00:04:45] but it's capitalism, okay?

[00:04:46] We didn't invent capitalism.

[00:04:47] No, he can't play best for that.

[00:04:49] Capitalism can be a little bit culti.

[00:04:51] 100%.

[00:04:51] Tondo P.

[00:04:52] Save that for another episode.

[00:04:53] Okay.

[00:04:54] All right.

[00:04:54] Here's part two of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood.

[00:05:08] What was the final straw after all the things

[00:05:10] that you put on the shelf?

[00:05:12] What broke it eventually?

[00:05:13] There were a lot of moments.

[00:05:16] There wasn't like one final thing where it was like,

[00:05:18] that's it because I had a lot of those moments.

[00:05:20] I left so many times.

[00:05:23] Sometimes I would get out,

[00:05:24] but I was always still under his eye

[00:05:27] and he was still keeping tabs on me

[00:05:30] and still reaching out to me and all of these things.

[00:05:34] Or I'd make it to the end of the driveway,

[00:05:36] or like the amount of times I packed my suitcase

[00:05:39] and got to the door and then you're going,

[00:05:41] why can't I walk out of the door?

[00:05:43] Why can't I leave?

[00:05:45] And it's because that psychological manipulation

[00:05:49] has infected your everything.

[00:05:53] Right.

[00:05:54] And it seems scarier to leave,

[00:05:58] but I think there was really a really, really,

[00:06:01] really scary moment and it wasn't even a violent one.

[00:06:05] It was when I realized that he was turning it on

[00:06:07] and turning it off when I got really scared

[00:06:11] because that's when it changed for me

[00:06:12] and it wasn't just, oh, you're not just drunk.

[00:06:15] You're not just sad.

[00:06:17] You're not just a hurt person.

[00:06:19] You're not an eccentric artist.

[00:06:21] You're doing this on purpose.

[00:06:23] And you know when to turn it on,

[00:06:26] when to turn off, how to and who to do it in front of.

[00:06:28] Anytime he had to do an interview or anything in public,

[00:06:32] I ended up getting to a point where I would lock myself

[00:06:34] in the bathroom because he's such an insecure person

[00:06:39] and he would always just abuse everybody all day

[00:06:43] while he was getting ready because he would be,

[00:06:45] I don't know, I'm not in his head,

[00:06:47] but it felt like he was so insecure about himself

[00:06:50] that he had to make it sort of everybody else's problem.

[00:06:54] And so I would lock myself in the bathroom

[00:06:56] while he was getting ready

[00:06:57] because I just knew it was going to be awful

[00:07:00] and I was going to get yelled at

[00:07:01] and abused and blamed for everything.

[00:07:02] And so anyway, so like all morning,

[00:07:05] he's just going off and like throwing things

[00:07:08] and wrecking things and yelling and like,

[00:07:11] I'm pretty sure I was locked in the bathroom

[00:07:13] and like, you know, it was just chaos.

[00:07:16] And then almost on a dime from one room

[00:07:19] to going in to do this interview,

[00:07:21] it was like chaos and then he went in and it was,

[00:07:24] and all of a sudden he was Marilyn and Manson was gone.

[00:07:27] And he was just calm, totally fine.

[00:07:30] Easy breeze.

[00:07:30] He started talking about me.

[00:07:32] Oh yeah, I love her blah, blah, blah.

[00:07:34] And like there was just something about this one time

[00:07:38] that like it still just gives me chills

[00:07:41] just thinking about it,

[00:07:41] just watching the shit, watching the mask go on

[00:07:45] and realizing like, oh, he's not even trying

[00:07:47] to hide the fact that he wears a mask anymore.

[00:07:50] Like he's got so much power and control over me.

[00:07:52] He didn't even bother hiding this.

[00:07:56] I saw it.

[00:07:57] I saw the mask go on.

[00:07:59] And that's when I knew that he wasn't just sick,

[00:08:02] that it was calculated.

[00:08:03] You know, it was really terrifying.

[00:08:05] Whether you're religious or not,

[00:08:06] like the power of prayer,

[00:08:07] you know, or the power of focused energy

[00:08:09] or when you focus enough good energy onto something,

[00:08:13] you know, maybe you can make good things happen.

[00:08:15] You know, and that's not to say that if you focus enough

[00:08:17] bad energy on something,

[00:08:19] what you might be stirring up or opening up.

[00:08:22] And he was certainly somebody that just invited

[00:08:25] any type of bad energy in,

[00:08:27] just open the door to it all the time.

[00:08:29] And I didn't believe in things like that

[00:08:31] until I was around him and felt it

[00:08:34] and felt how sick I got

[00:08:36] and just felt how thick the air was

[00:08:38] and felt I just never understood

[00:08:40] what like pure evil was until I was around it.

[00:08:44] You know, but it's like if you have like fetuses and jars

[00:08:47] and paintings that John Wing Gacy did on your wall

[00:08:52] and the crime scene photos of Sharon Tate

[00:08:56] in the hanging in the bathroom

[00:08:58] and like Hitler's coat hangers

[00:09:00] and like all of that was in our house.

[00:09:02] Oh my God.

[00:09:04] You know, that is like a vortex of dark,

[00:09:08] just the darkest energy that you're inviting in

[00:09:12] that we were just, I was just swimming in all the time.

[00:09:14] Yeah, it's awful.

[00:09:16] You know, like, man, why would you want that

[00:09:19] in your home all the time?

[00:09:20] We had our version of that.

[00:09:22] Exactly.

[00:09:22] We did.

[00:09:23] We had our version of it and there's a front for it.

[00:09:25] We're three people like Sarah and I set out

[00:09:27] to do good in the world.

[00:09:28] I'm assuming, you know, Evan,

[00:09:29] when you started your acting career,

[00:09:31] you had a vision for what you looked like.

[00:09:33] Yet we found ourselves in the clutches

[00:09:35] of this dark force.

[00:09:37] Somehow with the intent of doing good.

[00:09:39] Yes.

[00:09:39] Do you remember when we saw that spiritual person,

[00:09:42] I forget who it was now,

[00:09:43] but they were looking at what had happened

[00:09:45] and described Alan as a harvester of souls.

[00:09:48] Yes.

[00:09:49] Oh, yeah.

[00:09:49] And they need your light.

[00:09:50] They need your light.

[00:09:51] They feed off it.

[00:09:52] They need it.

[00:09:52] They do.

[00:09:53] And they suck it and it's like their life force.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:57] No, they have to do it.

[00:09:58] The energy vampire.

[00:09:59] It's an itch.

[00:10:00] They can't not scratch.

[00:10:01] Absolutely.

[00:10:02] How did you heal from that, Evan?

[00:10:04] Like how did you

[00:10:04] and how do you still protect yourself?

[00:10:06] You know, it's funny.

[00:10:07] I did realize one thing that will still make me angry sometimes

[00:10:13] and what I've heard from other survivors

[00:10:16] is the old you that you feel like was killed.

[00:10:19] And there is a version of me that I still mourn

[00:10:24] that was just so full of light and joy

[00:10:29] and just was so excited to go out into the world

[00:10:33] and do good and to live life

[00:10:35] and to have fun.

[00:10:36] And I used to say I was naive,

[00:10:38] but then I changed that to the less self-deprecating description

[00:10:42] of innocent, you know,

[00:10:44] just that innocence that was taken.

[00:10:46] And idealistic.

[00:10:47] And idealistic, absolutely.

[00:10:49] And I still have a lot of those qualities.

[00:10:52] I mean, clearly like I, you know,

[00:10:54] even just going and doing the Phoenix act,

[00:10:56] like there's always going to be a part of me

[00:10:58] that wants to help people,

[00:10:59] wants to do good and help heal.

[00:11:02] And if that means, you know, exposing some of my,

[00:11:07] all the things that I'm the least proud of,

[00:11:10] that's, you know, one way of doing it

[00:11:11] and one way of turning poison into medicine.

[00:11:14] But how do I protect myself from that stuff?

[00:11:16] Well, it doesn't go away overnight.

[00:11:18] And after I got out of my relationship with Brian,

[00:11:21] I have had good relationships

[00:11:22] and healthy relationships

[00:11:23] and some lovely people who I'm still so, so close with.

[00:11:27] But I also fell into some similar traps

[00:11:30] and was taken advantage of.

[00:11:32] And was told things that I wanted to hear

[00:11:35] and, you know, was looking for love

[00:11:37] in all the wrong places.

[00:11:38] And I realized that I finally got to a point where

[00:11:41] I realized like, oh, it's not just defending myself

[00:11:43] against these people.

[00:11:44] It's healing the part of myself

[00:11:45] that is also when these people come into my life,

[00:11:49] they feel like home and they feel familiar.

[00:11:53] And what is this part of myself

[00:11:55] that sort of allows it in?

[00:11:57] And if I heal that part of myself,

[00:12:00] then I won't fall for this bullshit anymore.

[00:12:05] You know, and that's why I sort of incorporated

[00:12:08] some of my family stuff into the Phoenix Act

[00:12:11] because the more work that I did on myself

[00:12:14] and with survivors

[00:12:15] and the more I looked at the problem,

[00:12:17] the more I realized like,

[00:12:19] this isn't just about one man.

[00:12:20] This isn't just about perpetrator victim.

[00:12:23] You know, it's an entire system that enables it.

[00:12:26] And there's also the cyclical nature of abuse

[00:12:32] or grooming or, you know,

[00:12:34] even if it's not at the level that Brian does it,

[00:12:37] there's little things that can erode your sense of self

[00:12:40] or your voice or your ability to, you know,

[00:12:44] identify abuse.

[00:12:45] And for me, you know,

[00:12:47] it was like looking back at my life and going,

[00:12:50] well, yeah, you were a child actor.

[00:12:54] You grew up in an arena that was made for adults

[00:12:59] where you were expected to behave like an adult.

[00:13:01] You were expected to do what you were told,

[00:13:03] wear the clothes that you were told to wear,

[00:13:06] look the way you were told to look,

[00:13:08] say the things that you were supposed to say,

[00:13:10] put on a happy face, don't talk back,

[00:13:12] don't cause problems.

[00:13:14] You know, the more you could soldier through things

[00:13:17] and not cause a scene,

[00:13:19] the less you used your voice,

[00:13:21] the more you were rewarded.

[00:13:23] You know, in its own way, Hollywood is a cult.

[00:13:26] Absolutely.

[00:13:27] I was going to ask you about that.

[00:13:28] Yeah, 100%.

[00:13:29] 100%

[00:13:30] Dude, yeah, come on.

[00:13:32] You can't speak up.

[00:13:33] You can't speak up.

[00:13:34] And again, like any kind of massive industry

[00:13:36] with a lot of money and a lot of power,

[00:13:38] it's going to kind of operate like a cult

[00:13:41] in that there's going to be hierarchies.

[00:13:44] You're not going to be able to say anything

[00:13:45] because you could lose your spot in line

[00:13:47] and they operate off a set of their own rules

[00:13:51] and their own laws.

[00:13:52] And they are accountable to different people.

[00:13:55] And it puts you in a situation where you're kind of powerless.

[00:14:00] And like that was even scary coming forward

[00:14:04] because people have asked me, like,

[00:14:05] well, what's it like being put through the system?

[00:14:08] And I said, it's kind of like that scene

[00:14:10] in Texas Chainsaw Massacre

[00:14:11] where you finally escape the murder house

[00:14:14] and you go to the neighbors and you say,

[00:14:16] oh my God, help me call the cops

[00:14:18] and they're dressed like the cops.

[00:14:19] And then they call the murder house

[00:14:21] and the murder house drags you back.

[00:14:24] You know, it's like the people that you go to for help

[00:14:26] sometimes are there to intercept you

[00:14:29] or to pretend like they're there to help you

[00:14:30] but really they're there to either get information

[00:14:33] or to throw a wrench in your whole plan

[00:14:37] or, you know, they're not actually going to help you.

[00:14:40] You know, and so that's pretty scary.

[00:14:41] How do you feel about that all?

[00:14:42] It's really scary.

[00:14:43] I just like realizing that you've gone through all this,

[00:14:46] become an activist

[00:14:47] and you still have this incredible career

[00:14:50] and you're a mother.

[00:14:51] Like how do you balance all of that?

[00:14:52] And what's your creative journey?

[00:14:53] And these are two questions.

[00:14:55] What's your creative journey as an artist

[00:14:58] on the other side of this?

[00:14:59] It's changing a lot day by day.

[00:15:02] I really, really love acting.

[00:15:04] I really don't like all the things

[00:15:06] that surround it all the time.

[00:15:08] You know, the more I've been able to sort of

[00:15:11] take a step back and examine it

[00:15:13] and examine some of the things

[00:15:15] that are expected of me

[00:15:17] if I am to pursue this and do the things that I do.

[00:15:20] I question things a lot more

[00:15:22] and I participate in things less.

[00:15:26] I'm starting to have much more

[00:15:28] of a Fiona Apple approach to most things

[00:15:32] of like, no, I'm not going to do that

[00:15:34] because I don't believe in it

[00:15:35] and I think it's actually bullshit

[00:15:36] and perpetuates certain ideas about

[00:15:39] celebrity and about beauty

[00:15:41] and about the patriarchy or whatever.

[00:15:44] Just like, no, I'm not going to do this anymore.

[00:15:46] And I'm lucky that I do feel like

[00:15:48] I'm in a place where I can do that

[00:15:49] and I can continue to act

[00:15:51] and do the things I love

[00:15:52] but I probably won't participate

[00:15:54] in the other things as much anymore

[00:15:55] just because it just doesn't feel the same.

[00:15:59] It feels a little peculiar.

[00:16:00] Well, it's good that the artists

[00:16:01] can control that now.

[00:16:02] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:03] And again, I am in a privileged place

[00:16:07] where I can do that.

[00:16:10] I think a lot of artists

[00:16:11] are always put in this shitty position

[00:16:13] of like, how much do I play the game

[00:16:15] and how many...

[00:16:16] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:17] Like I got to do this

[00:16:18] to do the things that I love

[00:16:19] and that's a lot of times

[00:16:21] the leverage that the industry holds

[00:16:22] over your head in order to abuse you

[00:16:24] as well because they're like,

[00:16:25] hey, we know you really want this.

[00:16:27] So are you willing to like,

[00:16:29] let us treat you like this to get this?

[00:16:32] And if it's not you,

[00:16:33] it's going to be somebody else.

[00:16:34] 100%.

[00:16:35] Yeah, and yeah, if it's not you,

[00:16:36] then like somebody else

[00:16:37] definitely will take the abuse.

[00:16:39] That's the shit that's got to change

[00:16:41] because right now

[00:16:41] it's just that's how the system works

[00:16:43] and it's always going to be a culture of abuse

[00:16:45] if we don't all start saying no.

[00:16:48] You know?

[00:16:48] That's the thing that kind of

[00:16:49] chaps my ass about Hollywood

[00:16:50] is a lot of times they flex

[00:16:52] that they're this moral conscience of things

[00:16:55] in a lot of ways

[00:16:55] that they try to lead these causes

[00:16:57] that they don't embody themselves.

[00:16:58] And the virtue signaling

[00:16:59] that comes out of it.

[00:16:59] And they undermine the cause

[00:17:01] that they profess to champion.

[00:17:02] Evan shaking her head

[00:17:04] for those who can't see her right now.

[00:17:08] Yeah, because it is that

[00:17:10] the more I've been in it,

[00:17:11] the more...

[00:17:11] And I've been guilty of this as well.

[00:17:13] We're all guilty of this, you know,

[00:17:15] in some form or another,

[00:17:17] some more than others.

[00:17:18] And there is, yeah,

[00:17:19] there's a lot of

[00:17:20] this is wrong,

[00:17:21] this is wrong stand up for this

[00:17:23] but then they're going

[00:17:24] and doing the exact opposite

[00:17:25] and completely playing

[00:17:27] and do all of the things

[00:17:29] that they're claiming to be against.

[00:17:30] And so there's tons of hypocrisy.

[00:17:35] This is the golden age

[00:17:37] of cult recovery.

[00:17:38] The more we speak up

[00:17:40] and share our stories

[00:17:41] the more we realize

[00:17:42] we are not alone.

[00:17:44] Your voice and your story

[00:17:45] can empower others.

[00:17:47] This is Sarah

[00:17:48] and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator

[00:17:50] of the hashtag I Got Out movement.

[00:17:53] Learn more at IGotOut.org.

[00:18:19] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:18:34] What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:18:37] Maybe you never skip leg day

[00:18:39] or never miss yoga.

[00:18:40] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:18:42] I mean, that's my personal

[00:18:43] and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:18:45] Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.

[00:18:47] Like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:18:49] and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:18:50] as I can outside of nature.

[00:18:52] Hashtag, cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:18:55] Nature is a non-negotiable.

[00:18:56] Not enough time in the fresh air

[00:18:57] and the trees around me

[00:18:58] and I start to feel not great,

[00:19:00] not myself, not grounded.

[00:19:01] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:19:03] I try to not miss it

[00:19:05] and I know I'm just going to feel

[00:19:06] so much better all around

[00:19:07] if I make it a priority.

[00:19:08] I get so much out of it.

[00:19:10] It helps me put my worries

[00:19:11] and anxieties in their rightful place

[00:19:12] and helps me clear my mind

[00:19:14] so I can focus on what I really need

[00:19:15] and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:19:17] Like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:19:18] just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:19:20] You know what I mean?

[00:19:20] Thanks, Therapy.

[00:19:21] Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:19:23] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,

[00:19:25] give BetterHelp a try.

[00:19:26] It's entirely online,

[00:19:27] designed to be convenient, flexible,

[00:19:29] and suited to your schedule.

[00:19:30] Just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:19:31] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:19:33] and switch therapists

[00:19:34] any time for no additional charge.

[00:19:36] Look, even when we know

[00:19:38] what makes us happy,

[00:19:39] it's hard to make time for it.

[00:19:40] But when you feel like

[00:19:41] you have no time for yourself,

[00:19:42] non-negotiables like Therapy

[00:19:43] are more important than ever.

[00:19:45] Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp.

[00:19:47] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:19:49] to get 10% off your first month.

[00:19:51] That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.

[00:19:57] The feeling that I was left with,

[00:19:59] I mean, other than just being like gutted

[00:20:02] and proud and moved by the documentary

[00:20:06] was just like I wanted to know

[00:20:08] where it all stood.

[00:20:09] And what I want to,

[00:20:10] obviously how you are as a person

[00:20:11] which you shared at the beginning,

[00:20:13] what's happening with the Phoenix Act

[00:20:15] and what's the current state of affairs

[00:20:17] that you can share

[00:20:18] because I know there's some legal things you can't.

[00:20:19] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:20] Well, the investigation I can't speak about

[00:20:22] because it's still active.

[00:20:24] I've taken a step back from things to recharge.

[00:20:28] I felt like from the moment

[00:20:31] I testified in front of Congress

[00:20:33] up until the documentary came out,

[00:20:34] it felt like it was just non-stop.

[00:20:36] And I put so many things aside

[00:20:38] like I was going to direct multiple projects.

[00:20:41] There was all this creative stuff

[00:20:42] and then this other thing came in

[00:20:44] and just everything got put on hold

[00:20:45] and sort of all of my energy went

[00:20:48] there and I do finally feel like

[00:20:50] once the documentary came out,

[00:20:52] it was like, okay.

[00:20:53] Like I've done everything that I can do at this point.

[00:20:56] I just, I feel like I don't know what else I can do.

[00:20:59] I've done it.

[00:21:00] I can rest a bit now.

[00:21:01] Yes, so important.

[00:21:02] Yeah, like oh my god.

[00:21:04] But I will eventually get back on the advocacy train

[00:21:07] and lobbying and because there is a lot of...

[00:21:10] I mean the thing that I learned is,

[00:21:12] you know, it's a lot of it are the laws.

[00:21:15] A lot of it, the way the laws are written,

[00:21:17] the laws that are in place, how outdated they are

[00:21:20] and they are not helping.

[00:21:25] You know, people wonder how there's Harvey Weinstein

[00:21:28] and how there's R. Kelly

[00:21:29] and now there's Cosby

[00:21:31] and now there's like Brian Singer

[00:21:33] and like how does all of this happen

[00:21:35] and so much of it are the limitations of the laws

[00:21:38] and also not teaching people what their rights are.

[00:21:42] Like I didn't know I was on the clock.

[00:21:44] I didn't know that there was a statute of limitations.

[00:21:46] I didn't know what that was.

[00:21:47] I didn't know I had a time limit.

[00:21:50] When you put it like that, it's...

[00:21:51] It is.

[00:21:53] Yeah, it is.

[00:21:53] It's a time limit where you can hold someone accountable

[00:21:56] for abusing you.

[00:21:57] Oh fuck.

[00:21:58] Well yeah and something's only a crime

[00:22:00] for a certain amount of time

[00:22:01] and the reasons why the statute of limitations

[00:22:03] are there are, you know,

[00:22:05] because memory could fade, evidence could deteriorate

[00:22:08] but these laws were written before iPhones,

[00:22:10] before, you know, all these technological advancements

[00:22:14] where it's a lot easier to collect evidence

[00:22:16] is also way harder for it to deteriorate.

[00:22:19] They also have the statute of limitations

[00:22:21] to like leave room for reform

[00:22:23] and I think that's interesting because it's like,

[00:22:26] oh yeah, no totally

[00:22:27] because if people aren't held accountable

[00:22:30] they definitely just get better on their own.

[00:22:32] They don't get worse.

[00:22:34] It's just like clearly it gets worse and escalates

[00:22:38] and if we're not doing anything

[00:22:40] and if we don't have systems in place

[00:22:42] for mental health or rehabilitation,

[00:22:45] why are you assuming that all these people

[00:22:47] are just going to rehabilitate themselves

[00:22:49] and get better and like the crime won't matter

[00:22:52] or like a life hasn't been shattered?

[00:22:54] So some of it, I understand

[00:22:56] but some of it is still not quite computing

[00:22:58] with my brain

[00:22:59] and it also seems intentional

[00:23:01] because there are so many studies about trauma now,

[00:23:05] so much brain science, so much evidence.

[00:23:08] We know sort of like a good time frame

[00:23:11] for how long it kind of takes to process

[00:23:14] and be able to come forward or to feel safe.

[00:23:17] I mean look sometimes it takes people an entire lifetime.

[00:23:20] Sure, it's okay.

[00:23:22] But you know for the most part

[00:23:24] you know it's around like seven to 10 years

[00:23:27] and we know that.

[00:23:29] So to have laws that are one to three years

[00:23:33] it just seems a little intentional.

[00:23:34] It just seems a little like

[00:23:36] oh we're just going to put a...

[00:23:37] Who stands to gain from this?

[00:23:37] Who stands to gain and you know again like

[00:23:40] we don't think like this but psychopaths do

[00:23:43] in that they're going to look up

[00:23:44] what the statute of limitations is

[00:23:46] and they're going to know all right I got a year.

[00:23:49] Oh man I only got to intimidate this person

[00:23:51] for a year, easy, easy for a psychopath

[00:23:55] to like scare somebody until the statute

[00:23:56] of limitations runs out

[00:23:58] especially if you have collateral

[00:23:59] and you have power

[00:23:59] and somebody's scared of you.

[00:24:01] You know it's going to take a very long time.

[00:24:03] I had never considered really that collateral was a thing outside of Nexium

[00:24:08] because it just wasn't like

[00:24:10] you know it just was this crazy thing that he made up.

[00:24:12] Revenge porn.

[00:24:14] Yeah and listen what they had on me is nothing compared to

[00:24:17] what they have on some of the women

[00:24:18] some of whom are still in

[00:24:20] because they haven't reconciled

[00:24:21] that they have been abused

[00:24:23] because they're still stuck in that shame

[00:24:25] and I hope that they watch Phoenix Rising

[00:24:27] because I think that a lot of them could potentially

[00:24:30] we call it waking up

[00:24:31] you know or yeah snapping out of the dream

[00:24:33] or whatever you want to call it.

[00:24:34] It's so hard because when you're in denial

[00:24:37] it doesn't feel like you're actively in denial

[00:24:40] it's not like you're white-knuckling it going

[00:24:42] no I'm not gonna admit it

[00:24:43] you know you're genuinely like

[00:24:45] you're like no this is good for me

[00:24:46] I chose this, I chose it, I chose this

[00:24:48] you're disassociated

[00:24:49] I don't even think I could say the word rape for years

[00:24:52] like it just wouldn't even come out of my mouth

[00:24:55] it's just yeah the reality is just too horrible

[00:24:58] you know

[00:24:58] I meant to ask this earlier but when you were in

[00:25:00] was there anything that people could have said

[00:25:02] knowing what you know now

[00:25:04] that would have gotten you out sooner

[00:25:06] or was it just like the path you had to be on?

[00:25:08] Man honestly like when I first saw the graphic

[00:25:12] for the cycle of violence

[00:25:15] when I started to read about domestic violence

[00:25:18] and human trafficking

[00:25:20] and when I realized that my situation

[00:25:22] was not only not just me and not unique

[00:25:26] but there was like a textbook for it

[00:25:28] there was like a how-to step by step

[00:25:32] that I think that would have done something

[00:25:36] I think people approached me in a shaming way

[00:25:40] and in a what's wrong with you

[00:25:42] how could you be with him

[00:25:44] why aren't you leaving

[00:25:45] you're on drugs

[00:25:46] you know it was very much sort of

[00:25:48] that doesn't work

[00:25:50] it doesn't work

[00:25:51] yeah you know

[00:25:52] and I think a lot of people just thought

[00:25:54] I was on drugs and crazy

[00:25:56] but there's usually an underlying cause for that

[00:25:59] you know it's you know people don't just become

[00:26:02] drug addicts for fun

[00:26:05] there's usually like some serious pain

[00:26:08] they're trying to escape from

[00:26:10] and if people had come to be in more of a

[00:26:13] hey like first of all read this

[00:26:16] second of all like especially

[00:26:19] I don't know if you've ever watched the show

[00:26:20] intervention

[00:26:21] but you see the moment people decide to go

[00:26:24] and it's never when they're able to see the error of their ways

[00:26:29] it's when the people around them are able to admit their dysfunction

[00:26:32] I swear to you

[00:26:33] and I think for me if my family had come to me

[00:26:38] and said

[00:26:39] and not made it about me

[00:26:41] and said

[00:26:42] hey we're really sorry

[00:26:43] I think that would have been a total game changer

[00:26:45] it'd have been like we're all gonna sort of take responsibility

[00:26:48] for our piece of the puzzle here

[00:26:49] and the dysfunction that we modeled

[00:26:51] or the things that we taught you

[00:26:53] or we did not empower you

[00:26:55] we did not give you a voice

[00:26:57] we expected you to be an adult too soon

[00:27:00] we did all of these things

[00:27:02] and we didn't do them on purpose

[00:27:04] like I love my family

[00:27:06] I love my parents

[00:27:07] I know the things that they did were not on purpose

[00:27:09] but we all do dysfunctional things

[00:27:12] and it's how we repair those things

[00:27:14] especially with our children

[00:27:15] that really matters

[00:27:16] and if you're not able to acknowledge those things

[00:27:20] you keep somebody sick in a way

[00:27:23] but if you're able to sort of free them from that pain

[00:27:26] and to acknowledge either your hand in it

[00:27:29] or what they're going through

[00:27:30] then that does so much

[00:27:31] for sure

[00:27:31] it does so much

[00:27:33] that's such good advice

[00:27:34] oh I hope all the parents listening

[00:27:37] put that in their pocket

[00:27:38] I'm listening as a parent

[00:27:40] it's not about yeah

[00:27:41] it's not about blame

[00:27:42] it's not like you were a terrible parent

[00:27:44] it's not that

[00:27:45] and that's like

[00:27:45] you're human

[00:27:46] they're human yeah

[00:27:47] and I know my parents when the documentary came out

[00:27:50] it was hard for them

[00:27:51] and I think it's still hard for them

[00:27:53] some days to feel like

[00:27:55] I don't want to be portrayed in this sort of negative way

[00:27:58] and for the focus to be on all the things that I did wrong

[00:28:01] and I just have to tell them

[00:28:03] look I could make another documentary

[00:28:04] that was about all the things you did right

[00:28:06] for sure

[00:28:06] yeah honestly

[00:28:07] like beautiful things

[00:28:08] clearly you did something right

[00:28:09] I'm alive

[00:28:10] and I burnt it all to the grass

[00:28:12] like you know so like

[00:28:13] yeah

[00:28:14] I'm still a good person

[00:28:15] like you did good

[00:28:16] there's a lot that you built

[00:28:17] because of them

[00:28:18] so much that you built

[00:28:19] if anyone's watching that

[00:28:21] they're gonna understand that

[00:28:22] these people who have been through some sort of trauma

[00:28:24] or they can recognize that your parents are human

[00:28:26] yeah

[00:28:26] they're good parents

[00:28:27] like we're all a product of our experiences

[00:28:29] and the time in which we were born

[00:28:31] and we're all doing our best

[00:28:32] and I know that they both tried really hard

[00:28:35] and in retrospect

[00:28:36] can look back at some things and be like

[00:28:37] oh my god

[00:28:39] yeah of course that would wire you for this

[00:28:42] of course you didn't have a core identity

[00:28:44] and it was easy for you to fall into this stuff

[00:28:46] like you were controlled by adults

[00:28:48] like your whole

[00:28:49] like you were like a little puppet

[00:28:50] like you know like so

[00:28:52] made sense

[00:28:53] I actually think that was one of the

[00:28:54] most emotional

[00:28:55] well one of them

[00:28:56] moments with your dad

[00:28:57] recognizing that he

[00:29:00] wasn't there for you

[00:29:01] when you needed him

[00:29:02] and that you taught him

[00:29:04] how to be there for someone

[00:29:05] and that helped him evolve his empathy

[00:29:08] and I think it's true

[00:29:10] that there's a lot of people

[00:29:11] myself included

[00:29:12] I wouldn't have known how to be

[00:29:13] with somebody in trauma

[00:29:14] until I went through my own trauma

[00:29:15] and now I know

[00:29:16] you just show up

[00:29:17] I had even messaged you that

[00:29:18] when you first came out

[00:29:19] it was like if I was there

[00:29:20] I'd come by with some food

[00:29:22] and we just met

[00:29:23] on Instagram

[00:29:24] but I would hold space

[00:29:25] and I'd bring you some macha

[00:29:27] and whatever you needed

[00:29:28] totally

[00:29:29] yeah and you don't know that

[00:29:30] until you go through it

[00:29:30] like I've seen other people

[00:29:31] go through trauma before

[00:29:32] I'm like oh I guess

[00:29:33] I better just give them some space

[00:29:34] and like stay out of their way

[00:29:35] but no I mean

[00:29:36] everyone needs different things

[00:29:38] but at least to offer that

[00:29:40] yeah because it's a very lonely

[00:29:41] experience

[00:29:42] and at the end of the day

[00:29:43] like people can

[00:29:44] hold your hand and support you

[00:29:45] but you're doing it

[00:29:47] you're alone and at the end of the

[00:29:48] day like it's your brain

[00:29:50] it's your soul

[00:29:51] it's your trauma

[00:29:53] and you have to sort through it

[00:29:56] and you have to do the work every day

[00:29:58] but yeah people ask me

[00:30:00] how'd you get through it

[00:30:01] it's like well you know

[00:30:02] you're never like

[00:30:03] I'm through it I'm done

[00:30:04] you know it's like it's work

[00:30:06] it's work every day to

[00:30:08] fend off the panic and anxiety

[00:30:10] or the PTSD

[00:30:11] or you know repeating patterns

[00:30:13] and yeah holding space for people

[00:30:15] is everything just like

[00:30:17] not trying to fix it

[00:30:19] if you ask for this

[00:30:20] it's a little different

[00:30:21] but like sometimes I'll be

[00:30:23] I'll just need to talk about

[00:30:24] what I'm going through

[00:30:25] I'll just need to talk about it

[00:30:26] with somebody

[00:30:27] and you know sometimes their response is like

[00:30:29] yeah but you know

[00:30:30] try to focus on you know

[00:30:31] some of the good stuff

[00:30:31] and like you know

[00:30:32] let's not dwell on this

[00:30:34] and let's you know

[00:30:34] let's move on for you know

[00:30:35] and you're like

[00:30:36] I understand that's very well

[00:30:37] intentioned

[00:30:38] but like I can't just

[00:30:42] if I could just like flip a switch

[00:30:44] and and just not think about this

[00:30:45] and be happy like I would do it

[00:30:47] but I just need to talk about it

[00:30:48] in process

[00:30:49] and if I need cheering up

[00:30:51] or a distraction

[00:30:52] I'll tell people I'll say

[00:30:53] like please just come over

[00:30:54] and distract me

[00:30:55] let's just like have fun

[00:30:56] and I want to forget stuff

[00:30:57] but sometimes you just need to sit in it

[00:30:59] and it's uncomfortable

[00:31:00] it's very very uncomfortable

[00:31:01] for people to sit

[00:31:02] in that with somebody

[00:31:03] because it's sad

[00:31:07] it's not it's not fun

[00:31:09] I was actually really impressed

[00:31:10] with how clearly therapy

[00:31:12] but also self-education

[00:31:14] you went through

[00:31:15] to even

[00:31:16] like the documentary

[00:31:17] really laid out the steps

[00:31:18] you really laid out the love bombing

[00:31:20] and the grooming

[00:31:21] and all the tactics

[00:31:22] was there a particular resource

[00:31:24] in your therapy

[00:31:24] and your healing

[00:31:25] that that led you to that

[00:31:26] or was it an amalgamation of

[00:31:28] different things

[00:31:28] I was in amalgamation

[00:31:29] there was a few people that really

[00:31:31] opened the door

[00:31:33] for me

[00:31:34] and Tandy Way Newton

[00:31:37] saw

[00:31:38] she just

[00:31:39] I wasn't I didn't tell anybody

[00:31:40] what had happened

[00:31:41] but like

[00:31:42] just the same way

[00:31:43] you can spot

[00:31:45] a perpetrator easier

[00:31:46] you can also spot a victim

[00:31:48] or somebody like going through it

[00:31:49] and I think she just could see

[00:31:52] something

[00:31:53] she felt it

[00:31:53] she felt it

[00:31:54] and she introduced me to Eve Ensler

[00:31:56] who wrote The Apology

[00:31:57] and the Vagina Monologues

[00:31:58] and Desvidé

[00:32:00] and is just brilliant

[00:32:02] she was the first person that I

[00:32:04] well one of the first people

[00:32:05] that I barely knew

[00:32:07] that I like

[00:32:08] told my story to

[00:32:09] and she was one of the first people

[00:32:11] that said I believe you

[00:32:12] and then I started

[00:32:14] sort of

[00:32:14] following her work

[00:32:16] and her journey

[00:32:17] The Apology is an incredible book to read

[00:32:21] if you've

[00:32:22] you know been through a kind of trauma

[00:32:23] and had a reconcile with

[00:32:24] never getting an apology

[00:32:26] never getting Josh to read that

[00:32:27] you know it's like

[00:32:28] oh it's really good

[00:32:30] really really good

[00:32:30] especially like

[00:32:31] you know

[00:32:32] your perpetrator was like huge

[00:32:34] narcissist

[00:32:35] and like

[00:32:36] nobody else could see it

[00:32:37] but you

[00:32:38] and then I

[00:32:39] I followed a lot of amazing advocates

[00:32:41] online

[00:32:42] and then I would reach out to them

[00:32:43] and then

[00:32:44] I would talk to them

[00:32:46] and learn from them

[00:32:47] and I would go to

[00:32:49] like the California partnership

[00:32:50] to end domestic violence

[00:32:52] and California is amazing

[00:32:53] I joined that

[00:32:54] I would go to

[00:32:56] the talks

[00:32:57] and I would hear from

[00:32:59] survivors from all walks of life

[00:33:01] different backgrounds

[00:33:03] different communities

[00:33:04] how the problem affects

[00:33:05] different people

[00:33:07] in different ways

[00:33:09] sort of

[00:33:10] the learning from

[00:33:11] the mistakes of the past

[00:33:12] talking to perpetrators

[00:33:14] talking to reformed abusers

[00:33:15] you know it's like

[00:33:16] I kind of just like

[00:33:17] had to look at the

[00:33:19] scope of the

[00:33:20] issue from every different angle

[00:33:21] especially when you're going to

[00:33:23] pass legislation

[00:33:24] you can't just be like

[00:33:25] here's a law that works for me

[00:33:27] a pretty white girl

[00:33:30] like it's like no

[00:33:31] like it has to work for everybody

[00:33:32] and so you have to study it from all sides

[00:33:35] and that helped

[00:33:36] just understand

[00:33:38] hey there listener

[00:33:39] hope you're enjoying this episode

[00:33:41] and that you're taking deep breaths

[00:33:42] when we cover the

[00:33:43] enraging stuff that cult jerks are up to

[00:33:46] let it out

[00:33:47] as in the yoga practice

[00:33:48] inhale positivity

[00:33:49] exhale negativity

[00:33:50] that's for you Sarah

[00:33:51] we got this

[00:33:52] no hulking it out

[00:33:53] all you will hulksters

[00:33:54] and if you need some helpful resources

[00:33:56] on the topic of cult recovery

[00:33:57] check out our website

[00:33:58] at a littlebitculti.com

[00:34:00] and now here's a brief message

[00:34:01] from our sponsors

[00:34:05] meals bring people together

[00:34:07] but for many families

[00:34:08] providing their next meal

[00:34:09] can be a challenge

[00:34:11] you can help by participating in

[00:34:13] Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive

[00:34:15] all proceeds go toward local food banks

[00:34:17] and families

[00:34:18] now through January 31st

[00:34:20] you can purchase an icon in store or online

[00:34:23] or watch out for the blue

[00:34:25] feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:34:26] where a portion of your purchase

[00:34:28] will be donated to local pantries

[00:34:30] together we can combat hunger

[00:34:32] in our local communities at Macy's

[00:34:35] the frankies were a picture

[00:34:36] perfect influencer family

[00:34:38] but everything wasn't

[00:34:40] as it seemed

[00:34:42] I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:34:43] still up here asking for help

[00:34:46] he's emaciated

[00:34:47] he's got tape around his legs

[00:34:50] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name

[00:34:52] infamous is covering Ruby Frankie

[00:34:55] the world of Mormonism

[00:34:56] and a secret therapy group

[00:34:58] that ruined lives

[00:35:00] listen to infamous wherever you get your podcasts

[00:35:07] where did the cults

[00:35:08] connection come in for you

[00:35:09] it's funny I was reading something

[00:35:11] about the cult of one

[00:35:12] and it was breaking down abusive relationships

[00:35:15] and domestic violence

[00:35:16] and comparing it to similar tactics

[00:35:19] used in a cult

[00:35:22] but honestly

[00:35:23] it was listening to other people's stories

[00:35:25] it was listening to you guys' story

[00:35:26] it was listening to the people that

[00:35:29] escaped Scientology

[00:35:31] there's a really crazy documentary

[00:35:33] called Every Fucking Day of My Life

[00:35:35] I don't know if you

[00:35:35] I'm not yet

[00:35:36] I watched that

[00:35:37] says it all

[00:35:39] it says it all right

[00:35:40] and it's the senders around a woman

[00:35:43] who fought back

[00:35:44] and actually killed her abuser

[00:35:45] when I went to jail

[00:35:46] yeah and it was like one of the most

[00:35:48] like horrific domestic violence situations

[00:35:51] that the courts had seen

[00:35:53] but they still had to send her to jail

[00:35:55] because you can't kill people

[00:35:56] and the opening is the 911 call

[00:35:59] and she's you know saying

[00:36:00] I killed them

[00:36:01] and you have to send help

[00:36:03] and they said

[00:36:03] did he ever abuse you

[00:36:04] and she said Every Fucking Day of My Life

[00:36:07] and it was just like

[00:36:08] goosh

[00:36:09] like I mean that's a

[00:36:10] that's a really amazing documentary to watch

[00:36:13] but I devour self-help

[00:36:15] people ask me

[00:36:17] so do you watch movies like what are you

[00:36:19] I was like no I don't watch movies

[00:36:20] I watch documentaries and I read

[00:36:21] self-help constantly

[00:36:23] what are your favorite self-help books

[00:36:25] I loved let's see

[00:36:28] Conversations with God is what I read

[00:36:30] when I was in

[00:36:32] really yeah

[00:36:32] when I went into the psych ward

[00:36:35] after trying to take my own life

[00:36:37] years ago

[00:36:38] my mother put that book on my bedside table

[00:36:40] and it like changed

[00:36:42] a lot of things for me

[00:36:43] during that time

[00:36:44] and then the four agreements

[00:36:46] clearly classic

[00:36:48] I really recently am on like an

[00:36:51] a Yanla Van Sant kick

[00:36:52] I don't know if you've ever watched her show

[00:36:55] no

[00:36:56] she's got a show called

[00:36:57] Yanla Fixed My Life

[00:36:59] it's great

[00:36:59] I love what she does

[00:37:00] because her approach

[00:37:02] to the problem

[00:37:03] is not always just a one-on-one

[00:37:05] with the person

[00:37:06] she brings in the entire family

[00:37:08] mm-hmm

[00:37:08] so she'll work with a whole family

[00:37:11] for like either a weekend

[00:37:12] or a week

[00:37:13] and she will find the root

[00:37:16] of all the dysfunction

[00:37:17] and how

[00:37:18] everybody's mirroring each other's traumas

[00:37:20] what got passed on to who

[00:37:22] even if like

[00:37:24] parent has been estranged

[00:37:25] from their child their whole life

[00:37:26] they're still like repeating

[00:37:28] each other's patterns

[00:37:29] it's bananas how deeply ingrained

[00:37:32] some things are

[00:37:33] even just in our DNA

[00:37:34] it's in the very fabric of our being

[00:37:36] and we will unconsciously repeat things

[00:37:39] without realizing it

[00:37:40] and that was a huge

[00:37:42] we need to watch that

[00:37:43] and it

[00:37:43] oh you would

[00:37:44] it's very

[00:37:45] very addicting

[00:37:46] it's very very addicting

[00:37:47] none of this means anything

[00:37:49] to us me

[00:37:50] my story

[00:37:51] if we can't turn it into some sort of

[00:37:52] content or wisdom

[00:37:53] and what do you think your wisdom

[00:37:55] or content is

[00:37:56] if you could summarize it

[00:37:58] I don't know man

[00:37:59] we've we've still got so much work to do

[00:38:00] with how people view

[00:38:02] domestic violence

[00:38:03] God just go back into the history of it

[00:38:06] really

[00:38:06] I mean

[00:38:07] the fact that

[00:38:08] it used to be legal

[00:38:10] should just tell you like

[00:38:11] why we are where we are

[00:38:13] and why the laws don't protect victims

[00:38:16] I think we have to empower people a lot

[00:38:18] more and teach people their rights

[00:38:20] and there's a lot of

[00:38:22] I

[00:38:23] you're saying you're allergic to self-help

[00:38:24] I'm very allergic to performative activism now

[00:38:28] after like

[00:38:29] and I used to do it

[00:38:30] like I get it

[00:38:31] I totally get it

[00:38:33] and like I'll bring it up now

[00:38:35] and I'll be like look I'm really not

[00:38:37] it's like it's not that I think this person's

[00:38:38] bad or stupid

[00:38:40] it's just

[00:38:41] after going through the legislative process

[00:38:44] and seeing

[00:38:45] what is necessary

[00:38:46] seeing the roadblocks

[00:38:47] understanding how things work

[00:38:48] what actually needs to be done

[00:38:50] I can't do the like

[00:38:53] performative outrage

[00:38:55] on Instagram anymore

[00:38:57] you know without some kind of action behind it

[00:38:59] and that's why I won't normally

[00:39:02] comment on things unless I'm actively

[00:39:04] doing something

[00:39:05] to help if I'm like on the ground

[00:39:07] if I've got my like

[00:39:09] fingers in the dirt

[00:39:10] otherwise it's just like you're still just like

[00:39:12] yelling for other people to do the work for you

[00:39:14] and I like

[00:39:15] I think people really have to wake up to the fact that like

[00:39:17] no one's gonna do it for you

[00:39:19] and if you're upset about it

[00:39:20] like you have to get on the ground

[00:39:22] like get into the Capitol

[00:39:24] not in that way

[00:39:26] like you know

[00:39:26] in the legal sense

[00:39:28] actually

[00:39:28] knock on the door

[00:39:29] yeah don't

[00:39:30] don't

[00:39:30] you know yes yes

[00:39:31] but like you actually have a lot more

[00:39:33] power than you realize

[00:39:35] and that's what this taught me

[00:39:36] is that we do have more power

[00:39:38] we just haven't been taught how to use it

[00:39:40] we've been purposely disempowered

[00:39:42] and like

[00:39:43] you got to get in there

[00:39:44] like you just you got to get in there

[00:39:46] you can't just post on Instagram anymore

[00:39:47] we're we're past that

[00:39:49] like

[00:39:50] and they

[00:39:51] they

[00:39:52] rely on

[00:39:53] you know us putting up a black square

[00:39:55] or like wearing an armband

[00:39:57] or something and being like

[00:39:58] I did it

[00:39:59] you know it's like

[00:40:00] that's not it

[00:40:01] that is a very

[00:40:02] very small piece

[00:40:04] of a very big puzzle

[00:40:05] and it takes work

[00:40:07] and it takes time

[00:40:08] it's going to take away from your life

[00:40:10] it will take away from your family

[00:40:12] it will take away from things

[00:40:14] that you would rather be doing

[00:40:16] and like

[00:40:17] you have to get comfortable

[00:40:18] with the fact that you're going to be uncomfortable

[00:40:21] and you know if you really want to see change

[00:40:23] like you got

[00:40:24] it takes time and energy

[00:40:25] I think we're both allergic

[00:40:26] Nipi and I are both allergic to that

[00:40:28] so

[00:40:28] yeah 100%

[00:40:30] my other question is

[00:40:30] and listen we can cut this if it's

[00:40:32] it's too personal but

[00:40:33] I couldn't help but

[00:40:35] feel the connection is on the right word

[00:40:37] but when I saw your brand

[00:40:39] oh I was gonna say like

[00:40:40] I'm gonna cry too

[00:40:41] we buried the lead didn't we

[00:40:43] yeah

[00:40:43] but I was like

[00:40:44] I looked at it I was like

[00:40:46] what the fuck

[00:40:46] and I just wondered

[00:40:47] have you removed it

[00:40:48] or have you done anything with it

[00:40:50] you cover it or

[00:40:50] I was actually gonna ask you

[00:40:52] if you had any tips

[00:40:52] I do

[00:40:53] that's what I wanted to offer you

[00:40:56] yeah

[00:40:57] yeah no it's still

[00:40:59] I haven't I haven't done anything yet

[00:41:01] it's still there

[00:41:02] I'm removing some of the tattoos

[00:41:05] but I've consulted with some people about it

[00:41:07] like I've heard you can do like

[00:41:09] laser treatments

[00:41:10] or you can cut it off and kind of

[00:41:13] I don't know like

[00:41:14] what are you what are you doing

[00:41:15] well I'm so glad you're open to talking

[00:41:18] about this because it's when I wanted to

[00:41:19] oh yeah

[00:41:20] as soon as I saw it

[00:41:21] for many years

[00:41:22] for the first three years

[00:41:23] I was cream

[00:41:24] I would creams

[00:41:25] I did a number of injections

[00:41:26] to make the keloid go down

[00:41:28] I got it from being quite like

[00:41:29] puffy you know what you see in

[00:41:31] like on the internet

[00:41:32] if you google like what my brand looked

[00:41:33] like it was quite puffy

[00:41:34] and keloid and quite red

[00:41:36] and so I got it white and flat

[00:41:37] and eventually

[00:41:38] I saw a plastic surgeon

[00:41:39] just to see what my options were

[00:41:40] and she said also you can laser it

[00:41:42] but it'll always be there

[00:41:43] it'll just be more faint

[00:41:45] and I found an incredible

[00:41:46] plastic surgeon

[00:41:47] through a friend who's in the industry

[00:41:48] here in Vancouver

[00:41:49] who I realized

[00:41:50] did the dirty work for me

[00:41:51] which is I'd never consulted

[00:41:52] because I don't have to explain to

[00:41:53] somebody what had happened to me

[00:41:54] I just didn't have that in me

[00:41:56] and luckily this friend of mine told

[00:41:58] one of her colleagues who happened to be

[00:41:59] the best plastic surgeon in Vancouver

[00:42:01] what had happened

[00:42:02] so I could just go in and show her

[00:42:03] and then she's like well

[00:42:04] what we can do

[00:42:05] and this is what I ended up doing

[00:42:06] as if you can imagine

[00:42:07] if our listeners like

[00:42:08] you know the brand was like a square

[00:42:09] it was about this big

[00:42:10] and she literally cut out

[00:42:13] like an eye around it

[00:42:15] and just you know cut it out

[00:42:17] and then sewed it back together

[00:42:19] can I show you

[00:42:20] take a picture of it

[00:42:20] yeah oh if you don't mind

[00:42:22] that's what I

[00:42:23] that's what I was hoping

[00:42:24] it was a thing

[00:42:25] it was a thing

[00:42:26] and it was not so bad

[00:42:27] and it was very well thought out

[00:42:29] and I had a friend who's

[00:42:30] a very spiritual friend of Lise come over

[00:42:32] and she did like a whole little

[00:42:34] you know intentional thing

[00:42:36] I don't even know what you call it

[00:42:37] like a mantra

[00:42:38] or like a

[00:42:39] you know why I'm choosing to do this

[00:42:40] like a

[00:42:41] as a very pivotal moment in my healing

[00:42:43] and that's what I'm going to show you

[00:42:44] if I can get the camera

[00:42:45] on the right spot

[00:42:46] oh my god

[00:42:47] it's going

[00:42:47] it's going

[00:42:47] like flying

[00:42:48] that's amazing

[00:42:49] that's what's left of it

[00:42:50] it almost looks like a

[00:42:51] scissor and scar

[00:42:52] but it's very faint now

[00:42:53] like you'd never notice it

[00:42:55] wow

[00:42:55] my appendix scars worse than that

[00:42:57] wow I'm so happy for you

[00:42:59] because I'm happy too

[00:43:01] oh my god that's got to feel so good

[00:43:03] I really

[00:43:04] yeah because

[00:43:05] but

[00:43:05] but even though it was flat

[00:43:06] I could still in the mirror

[00:43:07] I could still see k.r

[00:43:09] and I just didn't want that

[00:43:10] on my body anymore

[00:43:11] and I'm sure there's people who do it

[00:43:12] there

[00:43:12] but if you ever happen to be in

[00:43:13] Vancouver

[00:43:14] and you want a surgeon

[00:43:14] I can connect you

[00:43:16] that would be amazing

[00:43:17] yeah I would really appreciate that

[00:43:19] I clearly do not want this on my body

[00:43:22] you know it's weird

[00:43:23] I know all the years that I've had it

[00:43:25] only one person ever asked about it

[00:43:27] really

[00:43:29] wow

[00:43:30] only one

[00:43:32] yeah like you know with like

[00:43:33] intimate partners and things

[00:43:34] you know it's like

[00:43:35] I yeah I was kind of surprised

[00:43:37] like no one

[00:43:39] brought it up

[00:43:39] one person

[00:43:41] immediately was like

[00:43:42] is that a brand

[00:43:43] you know it's like

[00:43:43] what do you say

[00:43:44] like what do you

[00:43:45] what do you say

[00:43:46] I would just say like

[00:43:46] it's not a good story

[00:43:48] I don't really want to talk about it

[00:43:49] it's not a great story

[00:43:50] and then we just kind of

[00:43:52] you know move on

[00:43:53] but yeah I thought that was really

[00:43:54] interesting that was one of the most

[00:43:55] horrifying moments when I realized

[00:43:57] that so many of us had them

[00:43:59] he did it to a lot of women

[00:44:00] you know

[00:44:01] it's coercion

[00:44:02] you know it's like that coercion

[00:44:03] and fraud thing

[00:44:04] where you think it's just you

[00:44:06] and you're doing this thing

[00:44:07] with the person that you love

[00:44:08] and then you realize like

[00:44:10] oh you were just told the same thing

[00:44:12] as a bunch of other people

[00:44:13] and this is like a total

[00:44:15] scam to get you branded

[00:44:17] and that was like a horrifying

[00:44:20] moment

[00:44:21] and that's when I

[00:44:22] yeah I thought about

[00:44:23] you guys and felt so connected to you

[00:44:26] and even just the placement of your brand

[00:44:28] and I felt so many things

[00:44:30] and so yeah

[00:44:31] I'm really glad that there's a way to

[00:44:33] take it that off

[00:44:33] Yeah there is and it healed really quickly

[00:44:36] and it was a very empowering decision

[00:44:38] yeah I can't wait

[00:44:39] I feel like that's gonna be

[00:44:41] a big day

[00:44:42] a big day

[00:44:43] it was already like a big day

[00:44:44] kind of like starting to get some of

[00:44:46] the tattoos removed

[00:44:48] but yeah the brand

[00:44:50] that has to go

[00:44:51] this has got to go

[00:44:52] but it's evidence right now

[00:44:53] right well actually that was one of the things

[00:44:54] your body is the crime totally

[00:44:56] in many ways I felt like

[00:44:58] you know

[00:44:58] there wasn't even a choice to have it

[00:45:00] because I needed to be able to say

[00:45:02] look this is what happened

[00:45:02] hey

[00:45:03] this is what happened

[00:45:04] look guys

[00:45:05] you know and I got shit for that

[00:45:06] like

[00:45:06] that I was being a exhibitionist

[00:45:08] or looking for attention or whatever

[00:45:10] I'm like no no

[00:45:11] this is

[00:45:11] I don't understand that

[00:45:12] oh yeah because that's totally the kind of attention

[00:45:15] exactly

[00:45:17] exactly

[00:45:19] you have no idea

[00:45:20] the ignorant spot

[00:45:20] you have an idea

[00:45:22] you have an idea

[00:45:23] yeah nobody wants this kind of attention

[00:45:25] nobody

[00:45:25] yeah like one thing that was said about me

[00:45:27] it's just like

[00:45:28] oh yeah like she's just

[00:45:29] wants to get people to stop

[00:45:31] like associating her with this person

[00:45:33] and I'm like

[00:45:34] oh yeah so the

[00:45:35] so the way to do that

[00:45:36] is to draw as much attention to it as possible

[00:45:39] because that makes sense

[00:45:40] it's like before I came forward

[00:45:42] it was like

[00:45:42] people had just stopped talking about it

[00:45:45] like you have no idea how hard

[00:45:47] it was

[00:45:48] I mean you do

[00:45:49] but I mean like other people like

[00:45:50] how hard it was to accept the fact that by doing this

[00:45:53] to help other people

[00:45:55] because I still don't even know if like

[00:45:58] I don't think I've been in the statute of limitations

[00:46:01] so that it stops like

[00:46:02] future abuse and helps like current victims

[00:46:05] you know to be like

[00:46:07] now when you google my name

[00:46:09] it's me and him

[00:46:10] like it's me and him

[00:46:12] and

[00:46:12] I had just gotten to a point where it was just me

[00:46:15] and so to do this meant

[00:46:17] I was going back

[00:46:19] in many ways

[00:46:20] and so no

[00:46:22] it wasn't

[00:46:25] it wasn't to get like fame

[00:46:26] or clout or money

[00:46:28] like all of that's hilarious

[00:46:29] it's like all the fame that you don't want

[00:46:31] I've never spent more money in my life

[00:46:33] you know like

[00:46:34] everybody's remembering all the things

[00:46:36] I don't want them to remember

[00:46:37] everybody's watching the video of me getting assaulted online

[00:46:40] it's like none of these things

[00:46:42] are what you want

[00:46:43] no

[00:46:43] you know

[00:46:44] it's just necessary

[00:46:45] especially where we are right now

[00:46:46] in the world to do this

[00:46:48] and if they're going to burn the witch

[00:46:49] they're going to burn the witch

[00:46:50] but like

[00:46:51] we'll get there eventually

[00:46:52] and when we look back and we study this time

[00:46:54] they're going to go

[00:46:55] oh shit

[00:46:55] there were a lot of people trying to tell us

[00:46:57] that something was wrong

[00:46:58] and

[00:46:59] we burned them

[00:47:02] and

[00:47:02] and we've learned

[00:47:03] we've come a long way now

[00:47:04] can you look at the way that we used to like

[00:47:06] treat these people

[00:47:07] is what I'm hoping for

[00:47:08] you know

[00:47:09] just to be on the right side of history

[00:47:11] you are definitely on the right side of history

[00:47:13] and it's

[00:47:14] have goosebumps

[00:47:15] just like

[00:47:16] with the meaningfulness

[00:47:18] for me of this conversation

[00:47:19] and to be aligned

[00:47:21] with you as an advocate is

[00:47:22] really meaningful

[00:47:23] so thank you

[00:47:24] well thank you guys

[00:47:25] because

[00:47:25] you guys were such a huge inspiration

[00:47:28] for me

[00:47:29] and

[00:47:29] I know some of the other survivors

[00:47:30] watching

[00:47:31] what you guys went through

[00:47:32] and how brave you were

[00:47:34] and

[00:47:34] I remember hearing things about

[00:47:36] the cult

[00:47:36] and what had happened

[00:47:37] but

[00:47:38] you don't understand

[00:47:39] until you watch

[00:47:40] that long form

[00:47:41] storytelling

[00:47:42] and you really get personal

[00:47:43] with people

[00:47:43] you really see the journey

[00:47:45] and

[00:47:45] I had such a deeper understanding

[00:47:48] of not just what you went through

[00:47:49] but just these power dynamics in general

[00:47:51] and

[00:47:52] it really lit fire under my ass

[00:47:55] and it made me less ashamed

[00:47:57] and

[00:47:57] it made me feel like

[00:47:59] there was something that we could do

[00:48:00] and

[00:48:01] oh my god

[00:48:01] if I could

[00:48:02] get a documentary made

[00:48:04] and

[00:48:04] tell people

[00:48:05] not the whole story

[00:48:06] you know

[00:48:07] because there's always so much more

[00:48:08] but like

[00:48:09] give it to them in a way that's digestible

[00:48:11] that they can start

[00:48:12] to understand

[00:48:12] what this is

[00:48:13] you know

[00:48:14] then

[00:48:14] like I feel like I've done something good

[00:48:16] so thank

[00:48:16] you guys

[00:48:18] for

[00:48:18] getting out

[00:48:19] and for

[00:48:20] not stopping

[00:48:21] the fight

[00:48:22] and you know

[00:48:23] doing all the work that you did

[00:48:24] like especially after going through

[00:48:26] what I've

[00:48:26] gone through

[00:48:27] I know

[00:48:28] how

[00:48:29] hard that is

[00:48:30] so

[00:48:31] it's really amazing

[00:48:32] what you guys are doing

[00:48:32] and thanks for sharing

[00:48:33] thank you

[00:48:34] one final thought to end on

[00:48:36] you say to your child

[00:48:37] at the end

[00:48:38] the good guys win

[00:48:40] and what we've always said to Troy

[00:48:41] is our version of that

[00:48:42] which is light wins

[00:48:43] light always triumphs over dark

[00:48:45] in the end

[00:48:46] yeah

[00:48:47] but it's that the evil never dies

[00:48:50] but

[00:48:51] evil never wins

[00:48:52] there's a better

[00:48:54] phrasing for it

[00:48:55] but yeah

[00:48:55] it's something that it's like no

[00:48:56] it's not that the evil wins

[00:48:58] it's just that it never dies

[00:48:59] and so you have to keep fighting

[00:49:00] but

[00:49:00] light prevails

[00:49:02] it's a good message for our children

[00:49:03] amazing

[00:49:04] well

[00:49:05] we keep in touch

[00:49:06] and virtual high five for now

[00:49:08] and thanks again

[00:49:09] same

[00:49:10] Fizzbomb

[00:49:10] that was a Fizzbomb

[00:49:11] yeah

[00:49:12] okay

[00:49:13] okay

[00:49:26] that was part two of our chat with Evan Rachel Wood

[00:49:28] let us know what you think

[00:49:29] come hang out with us on Instagram

[00:49:31] or leave us a voicemail over on our website

[00:49:33] at alittlebitculti.com

[00:49:35] and just know

[00:49:36] that anything you say

[00:49:37] or do

[00:49:37] maybe held

[00:49:38] no I was kidding

[00:49:39] anything you say

[00:49:41] or do

[00:49:41] on our voicemail line

[00:49:43] might get played on the podcast

[00:49:44] you never know

[00:49:45] that's going to be fun

[00:49:46] and be sure to join us over on Patreon

[00:49:48] if you want to hear us unpack

[00:49:49] the Evan episode a little bit more

[00:49:52] and you'll also get some other hot bonus content

[00:49:54] and there may or may not be an imitation of Keith

[00:49:57] coming down the pipeline

[00:49:58] just gonna

[00:49:59] drop that out

[00:50:00] just clap that seat oh guys

[00:50:01] it's so good

[00:50:02] yeah

[00:50:03] y'all don't want to miss that

[00:50:04] y'all don't

[00:50:05] y'all don't

[00:50:05] hell no

[00:50:07] okay we're serving up some fun

[00:50:09] unfiltered and exclusive extras there

[00:50:11] from word salads

[00:50:12] you guys remember that part

[00:50:13] and signed merch

[00:50:15] to VIP access

[00:50:16] to our special

[00:50:17] The Vile Season 2 episode

[00:50:19] starting at five dollars a month

[00:50:20] so if you're already one

[00:50:21] of our monthly patrons on donor box

[00:50:23] and you're hearing this

[00:50:24] come over to Patreon if you want

[00:50:26] it's going to be fun over there

[00:50:27] Nippy might even drop some football knowledge

[00:50:28] and I'm just going to give some

[00:50:30] unsolicited advice about

[00:50:32] how to live your life

[00:50:32] let the season marinate a little bit more before I start

[00:50:35] yeah

[00:50:35] but there's some things coming out

[00:50:37] because why not

[00:50:38] we're already over there

[00:50:39] come on over to Patreon

[00:50:40] if you want

[00:50:41] it's going to be fun

[00:50:42] it's going to be

[00:50:43] lit

[00:50:44] it's going to be lava

[00:50:45] as the kids say

[00:50:46] no they're saying lava now

[00:50:47] oh really

[00:50:48] that's what I heard

[00:50:49] lit's no longer a thing

[00:50:50] well lit

[00:50:50] but lava is like hot too

[00:50:52] Troy always says let's go

[00:50:55] that's a Tom Brady thing

[00:50:56] is it Tom Brady?

[00:50:57] yeah

[00:50:57] Tom Brady says let's go

[00:50:59] well they all say let's go

[00:51:00] it's not that original

[00:51:01] but like it's the way that he says it

[00:51:02] it's like oh yeah let's go

[00:51:04] yeah

[00:51:04] the emphasis is there

[00:51:06] all right

[00:51:06] see you over there

[00:51:07] on Patreon

[00:51:08] let's go

[00:51:09] and until next time

[00:51:10] don't join a cult

[00:51:11] bye

[00:51:12] TVT

[00:51:23] I hope you liked this episode

[00:51:33] let's keep the conversation going

[00:51:35] and come hang out with us on Patreon

[00:51:36] where we keep the tape rolling each week

[00:51:38] special episodes just for Patreon subscribers

[00:51:41] and where we get deep into the weeds

[00:51:43] of unpacking every episode of the vow

[00:51:45] and if you're looking for our show notes

[00:51:46] or some sweet sweet swag

[00:51:47] or official ALBC podcast merch

[00:51:50] or a list of our most recommended

[00:51:51] cult recovery resources

[00:51:53] visit our website

[00:51:54] at alilibitculti.com

[00:51:56] and for more background on what brought us here

[00:51:58] check out Sarah's page-turning memoir

[00:52:00] it's called Scarred

[00:52:01] the true story of how I escaped nexium

[00:52:02] the cult that found my life

[00:52:04] it's available on amazon audible

[00:52:05] narrated by my wife

[00:52:07] and at most bookstores

[00:52:08] Alilibit Culti is a talkhouse podcast

[00:52:11] and a Trace 120 production

[00:52:13] we're executive produced by

[00:52:14] Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Niphy Ames

[00:52:16] with writing, research and additional

[00:52:18] production support

[00:52:19] by senior producer Jess Tardy

[00:52:21] we're edited, mixed and mastered

[00:52:23] by our rocking producer Will Rutherford

[00:52:25] of Citizens of Sound

[00:52:26] and our amazing theme song Cultivated

[00:52:28] is by John Bryant

[00:52:29] and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[00:52:31] thank you for listening