Bigger Than the Pope: Jennings Brown on Teal Swan & The Fellowship of Friends (Part 1)

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[00:02:05] are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization,

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[00:02:22] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a

[00:02:27] great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah

[00:02:32] Edmondson. And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a

[00:02:38] self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it? We got out

[00:02:44] of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers

[00:02:49] was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a

[00:02:54] newspaper. New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit

[00:02:59] Culty we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like

[00:03:04] cultic abuse and coercive control. We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians

[00:03:09] with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad

[00:03:13] romances with raging narcissist. There's always something to learn about the cultivars.

[00:03:19] Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode.

[00:03:22] Find us on Instagram and at alittlebitculty.com.

[00:03:25] Kick it off, Sarah. What do you got?

[00:03:44] I got some juicy stuff today, babe. Oh yeah?

[00:03:46] Got some real juicy things to talk about. How juicy? Really juicy.

[00:03:52] Before we get into that. That's gross.

[00:03:55] Before we get into it, I just have to say it's been really fun hearing everybody's

[00:04:00] suggestions for the listeners. We got decultaminated, cult averted, decultagious,

[00:04:07] the decults. A couple people also wrote in and I think it's important to note that naming

[00:04:13] the listeners may be a bit culty. So I think we're just going to abandon this idea.

[00:04:18] Yeah. I mean, we've got to be careful. Yeah. You've got to be careful that

[00:04:22] we don't get culty on the other side of this, right?

[00:04:24] Thanking our listeners and giving shoutouts to them is...

[00:04:27] No, no, no. Thanking them. We're just not going to name them.

[00:04:30] We were coming up with a name for the... Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[00:04:33] Some podcast of... Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[00:04:35] Coffee's just kicking in. Yeah. I was never on board with that really.

[00:04:38] That was more... I don't know how we even started it.

[00:04:41] I blame Jess. Yeah, Jess. This one's on you, sweetheart.

[00:04:44] But Jess is also responsible for some amazing things.

[00:04:48] Like really amazing things. The show notes, a lot of our questions.

[00:04:50] Like the whole idea of the podcast, the reason we're talking right now.

[00:04:52] The name of our podcast, in case you relate to the party,

[00:04:56] Jess Tardy came up with the title a little bit culty.

[00:04:59] And we owe her a lot. We owe her our lives and our happiness.

[00:05:03] Yeah, and we haven't met her in person yet.

[00:05:05] When I meet Jess Tardy in person, I'm going to like tackle her to the ground

[00:05:09] and I don't know what I'm going to do after that.

[00:05:10] Like I might lick her face a little bit. I don't know.

[00:05:13] It's going to be wild.

[00:05:14] Yeah. I mean, I just love her so much.

[00:05:16] And it's just so weird to know somebody...

[00:05:18] Like we probably talk five times a day

[00:05:20] and I've never met her in person.

[00:05:22] So that's going to change, I think, when we're down south.

[00:05:24] For sure at fist bump.

[00:05:25] For sure. Come on.

[00:05:27] Jess, for the first time in fist bumper.

[00:05:30] She's going to be like, fuck you, baby Ames.

[00:05:34] Get over here for some Jess Tardy loving.

[00:05:36] Anyway, Jess also writes a lot of our intros because that's not our forte.

[00:05:41] Anyway, so yeah, before we jump in another, this is another preempt.

[00:05:46] This is a serious one.

[00:05:47] We need to give you the heads up that this show is created for adult audiences

[00:05:51] and we advise listener discretion with this episode, particularly,

[00:05:55] because it includes a discussion of sexual assault, mental illness, and suicide.

[00:05:59] If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or crisis,

[00:06:03] please reach out immediately to a licensed medical professional

[00:06:06] or take yourself to an emergency room for real.

[00:06:09] We've put links to hotlines and resources in our show notes.

[00:06:12] We don't normally preface our episodes,

[00:06:13] but we felt like this one needed one because of the person Teal Swan.

[00:06:18] One of my favorite episodes is our ones with Nadia Boltzweber

[00:06:21] and we asked her about these kinds of people.

[00:06:23] And my favorite line from her is when she said,

[00:06:26] I assume they're all monsters until they prove otherwise or something to that effect.

[00:06:31] Yeah, there's the way that they talk, right?

[00:06:34] Yeah, just in the whole vibe.

[00:06:36] And this is someone who right away,

[00:06:38] because we've been looking at this and discussing it for quite some time,

[00:06:42] right away I recognized, I mean, I'll say it, I think she's a monster

[00:06:46] and people are kind of dancing around that,

[00:06:48] but that's my professional opinion of looking at this for as long as we have.

[00:06:53] Okay, here's my shot at it. Teal Swan in a nutshell.

[00:06:59] A new A.G. Guru and spiritual influencer who also happens to look a little bit like

[00:07:04] Zena Warrior Princess.

[00:07:06] If Zena had a thing for posting teachings that occasionally fixate on the darkest topics ever,

[00:07:11] self-harm, suicide, and necrophilia.

[00:07:13] And just so you know when I said teachings,

[00:07:15] I made big air quotes around them with my fingers because most of what she says is actually very generic,

[00:07:19] like reheated chicken soup for the soul quotes and memes from Instagram.

[00:07:24] It's just hard to argue with, you know, just be yourself.

[00:07:27] But the stuff that isn't absurdly generic is pretty crazy.

[00:07:31] Think of Jennifer Connelly, you know, put on a Stevie Nicks outfit and started recording videos.

[00:07:36] Yeah, with like trippy backdrops.

[00:07:39] So we actually got an opportunity to watch a sneak preview of the Freeform Docuseries

[00:07:43] about Teal Swan that just dropped.

[00:07:45] It's very sneak, but it's called Deep End and we'll link to it in the show notes.

[00:07:49] It's really good, but we're not going to lie.

[00:07:51] It's extremely disturbing for real.

[00:07:53] I couldn't even sleep well after watching this.

[00:07:55] I made a mental note.

[00:07:56] I'm not going to watch the rest of it before going to bed.

[00:07:58] I literally was like confronting her and writing letters to her about why she's dangerous in my

[00:08:04] sleep throughout the entire night.

[00:08:05] So don't do what I did and maybe watch it during the day.

[00:08:08] But I'll put it in teal terms.

[00:08:09] She seems to have some very dark vibes resonating in her energy field.

[00:08:13] I could see her aura and it's very dark.

[00:08:15] It's a little malevolent.

[00:08:17] We're actually going to be talking to John Kasby, the director and BitSola, the producer.

[00:08:21] They're the filmmaking team behind the Deep End in an upcoming episode.

[00:08:25] So stay tuned for that.

[00:08:26] And in that episode we're going to be doing an even deeper dive into the making of that series.

[00:08:31] She does a really good job of the online or what I like to call the algorithm cult.

[00:08:36] And she has a slick content making machine behind her.

[00:08:40] Very provocative way of engaging.

[00:08:42] If you look at her YouTube videos, it seems kind of benign, but all the things are there

[00:08:46] where she stares into the camera and all the hypnotic things are there.

[00:08:49] She has a huge following of hundreds of thousands people on YouTube.

[00:08:53] And she also seems to really believe that she has all the answers for anyone struggling

[00:08:57] with depression and suicidal thoughts.

[00:08:59] And she's very, what's the words there?

[00:09:01] I mean, I guess arrogant, but also like when she's challenge, she asserts her dominance.

[00:09:06] Just watch it and check it out.

[00:09:07] And her own words, according to the series we just watched,

[00:09:10] she's the most aware person on the planet.

[00:09:12] There's nobody wiser than her.

[00:09:14] And she says she's bigger than the Pope.

[00:09:17] She's going to be bigger.

[00:09:18] I think she thinks she's already bigger than the Pope.

[00:09:20] It's just a matter of timing.

[00:09:21] Basically she's asserting that that's her goal to be bigger than the Pope, right?

[00:09:25] Fuck it. Why not?

[00:09:26] Fuck it. Why not?

[00:09:27] Teal says she saves lives.

[00:09:29] Others say she's dangerously death obsessed.

[00:09:33] Our opinion is that Teal Swan is giving us very strong nine perfect strangers villain vibes,

[00:09:38] which is also a smidge of night terrors.

[00:09:40] But that's just us.

[00:09:41] So we wanted an expert opinion, which brings us to our guest today.

[00:09:46] Jennings Brown is a Brooklyn based investigative journalist

[00:09:49] who's experienced the Teal Swan effect live and in person.

[00:09:53] As a senior reporter at Gizmodo, Jennings traveled to rural Utah,

[00:09:57] the forests of Costa Rica and smack dab into the middle of Teal's inner circle

[00:10:01] to understand her teachings and to investigate the deaths of some of her followers.

[00:10:06] His unprecedented access to Teal's world is now at the heart of a six part podcast

[00:10:10] called The Gateway, which is crucial listening and we'll link to it in our show notes.

[00:10:15] Before Gizmodo, Jennings was an editor at Esquire magazine and popular mechanics magazine.

[00:10:20] And his work has appeared in New York Times Magazine, The Daily Beast, CNN and Deadspin.

[00:10:25] He joins us today to talk about Teal Swan's controversies,

[00:10:28] the layers of the onion that is reporting his peeled away from that carefully curated

[00:10:33] Teal Swan image and how spiritual hucksters are gaming the algorithm in order to manipulate

[00:10:38] people's most vulnerable moments. We also talked to him about his newest podcast project,

[00:10:42] The Spotify Original Revelations, which follows a California cult

[00:10:46] that combines doomsday prophecies and fine wine. And we get so carried away that we go

[00:10:51] into extra endings here. So this is the first of two episodes with Jennings.

[00:10:54] Part two drops next week.

[00:10:56] But let's be in the now, shall we? Teal's, well, she's a piece of work. Buckle up.

[00:11:02] Go listen to The Gateway pod or check out some of the articles in our show notes

[00:11:05] before you listen to this episode if you feel like being extra creeped out.

[00:11:09] But do browse and listen safely. It's dark stuff. We warned you.

[00:11:13] So that further ado, here's our chat with Jennings Brown,

[00:11:16] who had unprecedented access to Teal Swan's culty, culty world. Enjoy.

[00:11:36] Welcome Jennings Brown.

[00:11:38] Welcome. It's been a long time coming.

[00:11:40] Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:11:41] Yeah, I must be, I don't know. You tell me it's a little bit weird to be on this end after being

[00:11:45] the asker of the questions that reporter up till now? Or have you done a lot of these interviews?

[00:11:49] I've done a few, but they always make me nervous. I'm definitely more comfortable

[00:11:53] being on the other side.

[00:11:55] So where do you want to start here, Bitter?

[00:11:56] I am a little curious how you got into this. Like you're now

[00:12:00] this investigative reporter on cults.

[00:12:04] I mean, it's certainly not my only beat.

[00:12:06] Of course.

[00:12:07] I'm cover all sorts of things, but yeah, the stuff that seems to have gotten the most attention lately

[00:12:11] is on spiritual leaders and spiritual organizations and spiritual abuse and that sort of stuff.

[00:12:17] I'm fascinated by kind of strange communities and things on the fringe.

[00:12:22] So I guess I started reporting on kind of alternative communities and a lot of,

[00:12:25] especially in like, like before the 2016 election, I was doing a lot of like conspiracy

[00:12:31] communities and the right wing extremism and spending a lot of time kind of exploring the

[00:12:36] dark corners of the internet. And that's sort of how I got into Teal and started reporting on her,

[00:12:42] which I guess sort of shifted my whole career into focusing more on that kind of stuff.

[00:12:47] But I guess I could kind of talk about the origins of the Teal Swan reporting if you'd like.

[00:12:51] I would love that. And just before we do, is there anything in your background or childhood

[00:12:56] or religion or community wise that was part of that fascination or just something that you

[00:13:00] got into because you were exposed to it?

[00:13:01] I had a pretty, I guess, normal upbringing. I grew up in Dallas, Texas.

[00:13:06] I was raised in United Methodist Church, but I was pretty active. Did a lot of church choir

[00:13:10] and theater actually wanted to be a pastor when I grew up and it just was like kind of my safe

[00:13:15] space. I didn't really fit in at school and I had a community there. And then as I went to

[00:13:20] college and got kind of more politically engaged and more aware of global affairs and stuff,

[00:13:25] the church I was raising was the same church as George W. Bush. And there was kind of the sense

[00:13:30] that everything he was doing, he had God on his side. And then I realized that it was the same

[00:13:33] sort of God I was raised under. So I started questioning that. And then my youth minister

[00:13:39] was arrested with child porn. And just a lot of things started to come out about the people

[00:13:44] that I respected in the church. And I realized there was this sort of sacred veil they all

[00:13:49] had that I respected them. I think that kind of planted the seed of just sort of the fascination

[00:13:54] behind what spirituality and religion can kind of cover, maybe more sinister things brewing

[00:14:00] underneath and people get a pass. And I just kind of liked the idea of peeking behind the curtain.

[00:14:05] So you had a journey yourself?

[00:14:07] Yeah, yeah. But I've always been a seeker. I mean, even back then I was reading a lot of

[00:14:11] like books on sort of the occult and Buddhism and voodoo and different ideas.

[00:14:16] So I think those two sides collide is that when I reach out to spiritual communities and want to

[00:14:21] report on them, I mean, I'm genuinely very interested in their beliefs, their dogma I

[00:14:25] want to understand. I mean, maybe I'm going to find some sort of tool or new dogma that

[00:14:29] will resonate with me. And I think people respond to that because I don't go into anything

[00:14:32] trying to expose and just truly trying to understand both what they believe and the

[00:14:37] appeal and also just like maybe what they could be doing with their power and influence.

[00:14:42] That was the thing that struck me most about your process is it didn't seem like you went

[00:14:45] into any of these things with an axe to grind per se and more curious, which I think allowed

[00:14:50] you to get in there, which was the most fascinating thing for me to see is like,

[00:14:53] how did you get in there and get so close? What do you think that you were doing that

[00:14:58] facilitated that?

[00:14:59] You know, I reach out and I'm genuinely curious and I genuinely want to engage.

[00:15:03] And before I read a lot of the texts, I mean, The Fellowship of Friends is one organization

[00:15:08] I have done a lot of reporting on and they're based on the fourth way. It's

[00:15:12] just kind of this esoteric teaching. And I've read a lot of the books from the founders

[00:15:16] of the fourth way, so I can engage on that level. I think that's the sort of work that

[00:15:20] a lot of people reporting on this sort of thing don't really do.

[00:15:23] So you find that common ground?

[00:15:25] Yeah, I connected them about that and then I tell them, I'm also interested in the darker

[00:15:29] side, the shadow aspect. Also, I use the sort of language of the groups to show

[00:15:32] them my understand and like, look, I'm going to explore all these things, but I'm coming

[00:15:36] into it with an open mind and I'm trying to meet you on your level. And so,

[00:15:39] yeah, I think people respond to that.

[00:15:40] That's really impressive. I also, like Nipi, I think, I don't even just watching Teal,

[00:15:46] I've never met her, obviously you have, but I think because a lot of her vernacular and way

[00:15:51] of speaking and what I perceive as arrogance and just even the sort of the therapeutic

[00:15:56] model reminds me a lot of my own experience. So it's hard for me not to have a disdain,

[00:16:01] an instant disdain.

[00:16:03] Yeah. Well, I mean, Sarah and I were talking about this before and granted,

[00:16:06] when I think a lot of people start to investigate or ask questions to these groups,

[00:16:12] a lot of people know exactly what they're looking at before they go into it. A lot of

[00:16:15] people have their own journey with going into it and after three to five years of just asking

[00:16:19] questions, it's like, it's pretty evident to Sarah and I right away, like, okay, here's

[00:16:24] what it is. And we try to be devil's advocate with Teal, like what works and pretty consistently

[00:16:29] and tell me if this is what you've come across. Very seldom do the content points

[00:16:35] of what they're saying, are they really objectionable? It's normally the process of the leader that for me

[00:16:41] and particularly in Teal's case, and I'll just take the gloves off here. I find the arrogance,

[00:16:45] her weakness and her confidence is the thing that is ultimately going to be her downfall

[00:16:50] because I think that kind of blind ambition and I've experienced in my life just lends to

[00:16:54] many, many blind spots when you're pursuing and the comment we just saw in one of the

[00:16:58] trailers about her being akin to the Pope. And that to me is I'm tired of the term

[00:17:02] red flag. I mean, to me that's you should run. It's a classic delusion of grandeur, right?

[00:17:06] Yeah. And I'm wondering was that your immediate response to her? Did you reserve judgment? How do

[00:17:12] you press on when you start to understand what you're looking at? You said you think her arrogance

[00:17:17] will be your downfall. That kind of reminds me of a lot of the sort of arguments about how

[00:17:21] people thought that, you know, Trump wouldn't really become as powerful as he is within the

[00:17:26] Republican community. I think something that people really appreciate about her is her sort of

[00:17:31] confidence and brazenness. And people have asked me when the gateway came out and now the

[00:17:36] documentary about her, are you going to look back like the producers of The Apprentice who,

[00:17:41] you know, kind of gave him that platform? And I don't know if respect is the right word, but

[00:17:45] you can't help but sort of admire somebody who's just like their sheer confidence and boldness

[00:17:49] with this sort of stuff. This sort of spiritual community world, it tends to be a male dominated

[00:17:54] industry. And here you have this woman who's just like, she's like, I don't give a fuck.

[00:17:57] Like this is who I am. And like, I'm going to be bigger than the Pope. And I think that sort of

[00:18:02] confidence resonates with people. But yeah, I did have red flags when I first started reporting on

[00:18:07] Teal. Actually, Teal sort of came to me the way that it does for a lot of people is their YouTube.

[00:18:11] When I first discovered Teal, I was reporting on a lot of kind of conspiracy theories and

[00:18:16] consuming a lot of info wars and YouTube videos about like aliens and Planet X and all

[00:18:22] kind of these sort of alien conspiracy theories. And just out of like journalistic curiosity,

[00:18:28] but I think the sort of Google algorithms matched me with somebody who was interested in that kind

[00:18:34] of thing. This is the stuff we hear from a lot of people who got into Teal. They're like,

[00:18:37] I was looking into kind of conspiracy theories, like ancient alien type stuff. And she sort

[00:18:41] of fits into that nexus of conspiracy theories and mysticism.

[00:18:45] We call it the cult of the algorithm.

[00:18:47] Yes. And she's gained it really brilliantly, I think. But you know, so the time I was

[00:18:51] reporting on these things, I also I was dealing with a breakup and I was between jobs. And I think

[00:18:56] also just fit the profile of somebody who was spending a lot of time online and alone.

[00:19:00] And YouTube started recommending I watch these videos by this spiritual teacher.

[00:19:06] I ended up like looking back through my YouTube, you could see kind of every video that, you

[00:19:10] know, in your watch history. It was like a lot of info wars conspiracy theory videos.

[00:19:14] And then I watched the theme song from MASH, which is Suicide is Painless.

[00:19:18] And then it was like, you might like a video from Teal Swan. I clicked it.

[00:19:22] And I was just immediately transfixed because it was this beautiful woman who was looking deep

[00:19:28] into the screen, these kind of penetrating eyes, this swirly hypnotic background.

[00:19:32] Her voice was very droning. And you're like, what is this? It seems like something out of

[00:19:36] sci fi and it's kind of hypnotic. And she starts talking to us topics about everything

[00:19:40] from like diet to cryptocurrency to darker topics like self harm and suicide and

[00:19:46] necrophilia. A lot of times things will start very normal and just kind of new age,

[00:19:51] self help, law of attraction type stuff. And then it's droning on, you're getting sucked in.

[00:19:55] And then it just takes a turn for like, like a necrophilia or suicide.

[00:19:58] And so that immediately my spidey senses were tingling. I was like, I think there's

[00:20:02] a story here. I admired it was like this sort of spiritual influencer wasn't afraid to talk

[00:20:06] about these darker topics. She's also very upfront about how the YouTube

[00:20:12] and her online presence preps people for when she meets her. She doesn't have to win them over

[00:20:16] when she meets them. They're already won over by the time they do that.

[00:20:19] At the time I was a tech reporter, so I was reporting on it from that angle because

[00:20:23] I was really fascinated. It's a lot of topics that there aren't videos for because they're

[00:20:26] very taboo. Like there's a period where if you typed in, I want to kill myself,

[00:20:30] the first video that popped up on YouTube was her video titled, I want to kill myself,

[00:20:35] parentheses, what to do if you're suicidal? It's already kind of like she's sort of

[00:20:39] gaming the algorithm by talking and she has videos about everything. And so when people are,

[00:20:43] they've told me they're like, I put a question in the universe and then YouTube sort of delivered

[00:20:47] this video. And then they kind of fall down the rabbit hole. They start watching your videos

[00:20:50] all night. I mean, people told me they just like it was all they're watching. Yeah. So it's by

[00:20:54] the time they meet her, it's like they truly have, they're like, it's beyond fandom.

[00:20:58] And I felt that too. When I met her, like I had been watching so many videos of her and

[00:21:02] to see her in the flesh. I had that when I met Nancy also. Oh really? Yeah. Because I didn't

[00:21:06] have a video for so I had, I had what most people had for Keith. I had more with Nancy

[00:21:10] and I really admired her and looked up at her and wanted to be like her. But when I first met

[00:21:14] her in person, I'd seen her on the videos, right? For five straight days in a row and then I met

[00:21:18] her that next weekend. And so I was like, Oh my God, Nancy. So yeah, I do get that. And I do

[00:21:22] find Teal to be quite calm and charismatic. And the confidence is definitely reassuring

[00:21:28] when you're into her. But from the outsider's point of view, I look at it and go,

[00:21:32] you know, especially with the allegations that she somehow maybe played a part in

[00:21:35] certain people's suicides. I mean, I think you really deal with well in gateway, like the way

[00:21:39] that you explore that. I think it's really responsible. And I find her response very irresponsible,

[00:21:44] you know, in terms of like, if that was me, like she says she was upset, but more about what it

[00:21:49] meant about her, like not about the person who died. I found that quite shocking. It wasn't

[00:21:53] the appropriate response to someone committing suicide. It seems like when most people, if

[00:21:58] you had any sort of link or causation to someone's death, that didn't look like the

[00:22:02] requisite empathy that would happen with most people. I did find when she was challenged,

[00:22:07] she got a little bit. She kind of gaslit you. Yeah. Did you catch that Jennings listening back?

[00:22:11] Yeah. So I mean, I had two main interviews with her. The first one was at her compound,

[00:22:16] her healing center in Costa Rica for a lot of her, it's like her intentional community. A lot of

[00:22:20] them were living at the time. Kind of nine perfect strangers ask. It honestly was very

[00:22:24] nine perfect strangers asked. They, I think they pulled, I mean, obviously it was

[00:22:28] nine perfect strangers as a book before, but there were a lot of elements that

[00:22:30] weren't in the book that seemed straight out of gateway. It was like very surreal watching

[00:22:34] that because when I arrived there, she immediately had everybody go through this like death meditation

[00:22:39] where they all imagine their death and we're sitting in a circle and there's a moment in

[00:22:43] nine perfect strangers where they, she had to really bury their graves in a circle. And it

[00:22:46] was like as somebody who'd seen that and then seeing it on film, it's very weird. But I spent

[00:22:51] like a week there like getting to know her community and the people who'd spent thousands

[00:22:54] of dollars to go there for this retreat. And so I was even more kind of amped up.

[00:22:58] I'd interviewed a lot of people that I respect or like celebrities, but this was different. It was

[00:23:02] like these people really believe that she was some sort of deity or had some sort of power.

[00:23:05] So then by the time when I finally interviewed her there, you know, people are kind of pressed

[00:23:09] against the windows and watching. And I think the little jealous that I got so much time alone

[00:23:14] with her, she totally got in my head. I finished that interview and I thought I just

[00:23:17] like killed it. And then my producer was like, we can barely use that. She totally

[00:23:21] manipulated you, controlled you. And listening back was like, yep, she absolutely did.

[00:23:26] She didn't answer your questions. She never answered a direct question.

[00:23:28] Yeah, I would ask something and then she would say something very shocking that made me

[00:23:32] feel very uncomfortable was like, you know, man asking a woman very sensitive questions,

[00:23:36] which, you know, that was also delicate issue with the podcast. But after that, yeah, I prepared

[00:23:40] and we had a final interview with that I was much more prepared for. But yeah,

[00:23:44] even looking back there was kind of this gaslighting always kind of one-upping me.

[00:23:47] It felt like this chess game. I mean, it was unlike any interview I've ever done.

[00:23:51] Yep. That's how it is with people when you try and pin them down.

[00:23:53] I was so uncomfortable listening to it. Like, I have not so much anymore, but especially in the

[00:23:59] early days after leaving like dreams where I'm having these conversations with ex leaders or

[00:24:03] ex members of Nexium being out of it now and knowing what it looks like. I can see it and

[00:24:08] like fantasize about responding in a way that's like cut the gaslighting, you know,

[00:24:13] it'd be like, you're not answering my question. You're an arrogant fuck. Go fuck yourself.

[00:24:18] So Jennings, after that experience, what abuses of power do you think she's committing when she

[00:24:24] does that? Like, because that's the subtle kind of not so overt mechanisms they use.

[00:24:29] Yeah. Well, first of all, respond to something Sarah just said. You know, I have a friend who

[00:24:33] got out of Nexium. We're going to call her Becca. Let's call her Becca.

[00:24:36] Sure. Becca. We were friends when the gateway came out. She tried to listen

[00:24:41] to an episode and she was like, dude, I love you, but I can't listen to this. It's giving

[00:24:44] me key triggers. It's just like hearing a nano one's voice. And so, you know, I applaud

[00:24:49] y'all for consuming as much content about this stuff, you know, related to your guests as you do

[00:24:53] because I cannot imagine it's very triggering. Jennings, to your point, and I think you talk

[00:24:58] about this as well, the abuses of power. And this is what we said almost in every episode that go

[00:25:02] on inside of say a cult or whatever are the same ones that go on in society.

[00:25:06] And we spoke to a woman yesterday that we're going to be later about how narcissists do it,

[00:25:10] not stuff. To your point, it is triggering at the same time this podcast has become what's

[00:25:15] our life now. So I'm kind of used to it. And if anything is just like, and here's another one,

[00:25:21] you know, and it's kind of the same shit, different voice, slightly different message.

[00:25:26] But I will say there is a lot of similarities, especially in the methodology, the completion

[00:25:31] process that Tila uses with her clients sounds a lot like an EM in terms of bringing up the

[00:25:37] feeling of we even called it being triggered, you're triggered, you bring that feeling up

[00:25:41] through that feeling, you access a memory. That memory is usually some sort of early childhood

[00:25:45] trauma. We didn't use the word trauma so much in next year. But it was like some incident that

[00:25:48] happened in childhood where you put together meaning about how the world works or whatever

[00:25:53] that means about you, usually like I'm in love, or I'm unsafe, or I'm worthless or whatever.

[00:25:58] And we would then what they call fill in the missing information that you didn't have as

[00:26:02] a kid. So you could look at it in a different way, reintegrate it. And then the thing

[00:26:05] that normally triggers you is no longer a trigger because you don't have that, you don't

[00:26:08] carry that same wound exact same thing, which I later found out as sort of like different.

[00:26:12] And listen, I'm not a therapist, but like it's kind of psychology 101 to reframe your beliefs

[00:26:17] that you had a kid. My concern is I mean, she thinks she just downloaded this from the cloud,

[00:26:22] the Akashic records, Akashic records. Yeah, the universe and this is she got it that way.

[00:26:27] And listen, after this whole journey, I'm not opposed to certain what some people call

[00:26:31] or energy. Like I got some crystals, I do my smudging. I have angel cards, but like

[00:26:37] I wouldn't make major life decisions on those things are just sort of like accoutrements

[00:26:41] in my house. And I'm very skeptical. My main concern with her is like she has no training.

[00:26:47] That's a big problem. Well, that's the abuse. And there's people's psychies and

[00:26:50] major traumatic wounds in her hands, and they're going to her to resolve it.

[00:26:53] How do you think she justifies that? I try not to dismiss anybody's beliefs or claims

[00:26:59] of their powers because I mean, certainly the what I was raised in, I think of an alien look

[00:27:03] down and looked at teal and what she teaches and like what just basic Christians think, you know,

[00:27:07] that's like zombie Jesus rose from the dead. We eat as flesh, we drink as blood, like it sounds,

[00:27:12] you know, so I certainly I don't want to like say that she doesn't have any psychic abilities

[00:27:16] or you know, that there isn't any truth to the things she's saying. Yeah, she's not trained in

[00:27:20] any kind of mental health capacity. She has had a lot of therapy, has read a lot of books of

[00:27:27] different spiritual teachings and consumed a lot of content around that. And I think it seems to me

[00:27:32] that because there's a lot of like sort of parroting and accusations of plagiarism,

[00:27:35] so it seems to me that she does kind of pull from all these different teachings and

[00:27:39] kind of diagnose people. But that's where it gets really messy is she uses

[00:27:43] terms straight from psychology, like straight diagnosing people with bipolar disorder or

[00:27:48] telling them, you know, I think you are passively suicidal. There are things from your past

[00:27:52] that I can tell like, you know, saying your parents abused them sexually or like in these satanic

[00:27:57] rituals. That's where it gets really scary is like, you know, the people who are in a very vulnerable

[00:28:01] position, very impressionable, you know, she's the sort of authority figure, power figure, you

[00:28:05] know, and they've paid to go to these events. So just the power balance is already off and she's

[00:28:09] saying like she knows things about them and she's diagnosing them. And that's where it goes

[00:28:13] to a certain yeah, they were at the things she's really playing with fire because then that

[00:28:16] totally changes their identity. And then, you know, they find out with her that their parents

[00:28:20] abused them. And so they do this, what she calls like used to be the shadow shadow work now,

[00:28:24] then it was completion process. I'm not sure if it's a ball to be on that. But people do this

[00:28:29] sort of completion process to try to remember what teal has sort of said about them or diagnosed

[00:28:34] them with and help them process it so that it becomes all the more real. I saw a very clear

[00:28:38] pattern a lot of a lot of people who went to her, they found out things about themselves,

[00:28:43] like they found out their parents abused them in satanic rituals, or like experiment on

[00:28:47] their body or things like that. And then they go and do this completion work, and it becomes very

[00:28:51] real to them. And then it just ruins their family. There's many people who have had that exact

[00:28:56] trajectory where they are no longer on her family. And you know, she is also kind of a

[00:29:01] mother figure to a lot of people. So the teal tribe sort of becomes their new family.

[00:29:05] And so much of this is happening just online. And so she really has built this kind of model

[00:29:10] that we are somewhat familiar with and has put it on the internet and the algorithms have

[00:29:15] totally boosted it. And used to be just with YouTube, and now she's thriving with TikTok.

[00:29:20] And she's leaned more into kind of QAnon stuff and Conspirituality, a lot of anti-back stuff.

[00:29:26] She's very good at kind of evolving with sort of what's going on in the Conspirituality world

[00:29:31] on the internet. She's clever. And look, she came on my radar around the time we did

[00:29:36] a podcast on Bintin Heño. Bintin Ho. Masaro. And because he does a similar thing.

[00:29:41] Yeah, they're very similar. I think. Yeah.

[00:29:42] And I don't think it was a coincidence that she came out with kind of a statement about

[00:29:47] people who are abusing things online kind of warning people about people like him

[00:29:53] while she was doing the same thing. To your point, I think she's clever,

[00:29:57] anticipating what my objections might be so she could get ahead of them.

[00:30:01] Do you think that she was okay to let you in because she thought that you were gonna

[00:30:05] validate her or that she was trying to do that I've got nothing to hide? Come on in.

[00:30:08] What do you think was going on for her that you got so close?

[00:30:11] With my approach, I came to her and I was like, you're clearly doing something.

[00:30:15] I didn't understand the time. I knew that she, a lot of people swore by what she did.

[00:30:19] I knew there was some controversy. I knew she was doing something very original.

[00:30:22] I told her I was a tech reporter and I was also a seeker and I was fascinated with this sort

[00:30:26] of stuff. I wanted to understand how she was building this sort of spiritual empire through

[00:30:30] the internet. I think that resonated with her and they invited me out. And even as like,

[00:30:36] I kept sending them sort of fact check questions as the thing was coming to an end and they

[00:30:40] just paid it to the end. And she is not ashamed of anything she does. I think she also

[00:30:46] is sort of into the controversy. They used to have this very, very active Facebook group

[00:30:50] called the Teal Tribe that since been shut down, but it was just like people posting about

[00:30:55] suicide and posting her videos all the time. But it was really, it was like this community

[00:30:58] she built for people who appreciated spirituality, but all of it was kind of too

[00:31:02] woo woo and happy. And this was kind of like for people who had like a darker side.

[00:31:06] When it was active, if anybody posted the gateway or mentioned me or any kind of criticism,

[00:31:12] A, the settings were set so that you couldn't post anything about the gateway. So there's

[00:31:15] already kind of control of information online. Yeah, anybody who started posting sort of like

[00:31:20] questions about it were kicked out. There's this excommunication. I think there is a

[00:31:23] sort of control of information. They don't appreciate criticism. They call everybody

[00:31:26] a hater, but I think they sort of appreciate the controversy. It validates this idea that

[00:31:30] she's doing something that, you know, the mainstream doesn't want. She's this sort of

[00:31:34] fearless maverick. They're not ready for it. Right. Keith's version of that was whenever

[00:31:38] there was negative media, it was, well, of course, if you're trying to bring ethics

[00:31:43] to an unethical world, there's always going to be a pushback. We tell our stories.

[00:32:16] We change the world. A little bit cult is proud to support the hashtag I got out project

[00:32:21] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online as a catalyst for

[00:32:26] education, prevention and healing. Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement

[00:32:31] and find resources at I got out.org. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:32:42] What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:32:48] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. I mean, that's my personal and everyone's dream,

[00:32:52] isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right

[00:32:56] now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools,

[00:33:01] hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees

[00:33:05] around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy Day is a bit like

[00:33:10] my nature walks. I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all

[00:33:14] around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and

[00:33:19] anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really

[00:33:23] need and sometimes what I don't need. Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because

[00:33:26] I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks, Therapy. Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:33:31] And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online,

[00:33:35] designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:33:39] and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge.

[00:33:44] Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it.

[00:33:48] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like Therapy

[00:33:51] are more important than ever. Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com

[00:33:56] slash culti today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culti.

[00:34:03] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family, but everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:34:10] At a 12-year-old boy, she appeared asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs.

[00:34:18] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name.

[00:34:36] What do you think people need to know about Teal and do you think she's dangerous?

[00:34:40] I think for some people, she'd be very dangerous. The amount of people who reached out afterwards

[00:34:44] that thanked me for the podcast and a lot of times it was like it just helped my family understand

[00:34:49] why I went through such a dark period and why I was alienated from them. That's a benefit to a lot

[00:34:54] of these documentaries and stuff is, I mean, there's definitely, I think a lot of issues with

[00:34:58] a lot of those sort of fascination with cult related documentaries and podcasts and stuff

[00:35:03] like that. And that's the whole other topic we get into. But I think for a lot of people,

[00:35:06] it does. I've heard from cult survivors who were like, it finally helped. It was the sort of thing

[00:35:10] that I couldn't explain to everybody. And then I have this podcast or documentary came out and it

[00:35:14] helped people understand what I went through and why I seemed crazy. So yeah, I think she can be

[00:35:20] dangerous because a lot of people have since told me that she affected them in very dark ways.

[00:35:24] And there have been people who were very connected her consuming a lot of her teachings who

[00:35:29] died by suicide. And that's not to say that she's to blame. I mean, a lot of therapists

[00:35:33] to help patients with suicidal ideation obviously like have clients who died. The beginning,

[00:35:37] I started focusing on the suicide because there was so much on her. The people call her

[00:35:40] like the suicide catalyst because she calls herself a spiritual catalyst. And there's a lot of sort

[00:35:44] of ex teal people or people who are just like fascinating with teal who are promoting this

[00:35:47] idea that teal is like a suicide cult leader and she's pushing people to kill themselves.

[00:35:51] And I don't know, she's playing with fire. She's pulling in a lot of people who are isolated

[00:35:56] depressed having suicidal ideation. And she definitely, I mean, she romanticizes suicide.

[00:36:02] I mean, the video, the main suicide video that has since been taken down title, I want to kill

[00:36:06] myself. What's good if you're suicidal? Said suicide is a reset button. It can feel very good to die

[00:36:11] because she's lived many lives. She's experienced death. And so it was sort of this kind of like,

[00:36:15] I understand why you want to do it. It feels very good, but you shouldn't. But it's,

[00:36:18] you know, it really feels good and it's like a fresh start. So it's like drawing in those

[00:36:21] kind of people. And then like, I mean, maybe for some, it works or just having that community

[00:36:26] of people who are also into the same thing going through the same things as you,

[00:36:30] I think that can benefit people. But like I said, she's playing with fire. She's playing the role

[00:36:34] of therapist, but also this sort of omnipotent, all knowing person that can access the Akashic

[00:36:39] records and knows more things than you do about yourself. So I guess like the solution, which

[00:36:43] isn't a great one, but there's just should be some sort of regulation or more transparency

[00:36:48] with this process because she has no license. There's no board. There's nobody she has to

[00:36:53] answer to, but she's pretending she is sort of right. She's demanding that you believe

[00:36:59] that she is. This is basically what I heard when any sort of inquiry or cross examination

[00:37:04] or curation of a conversation that she wasn't curating, she got pretty ornery.

[00:37:08] Yeah. And my final interview was like one of the first times that she's really had to

[00:37:12] question that sort of criticism and pushback. And I think you sort of see a side of her

[00:37:16] that you rarely see. And a lot of her followers did not appreciate that. And they're like,

[00:37:20] how dare this guy? And I understand how that can be uncomfortable.

[00:37:23] Yeah. She was basically an essence saying you need to believe my boast about myself.

[00:37:27] I am because I am. So that was her attitude, like, well, I am because I am. And that's it.

[00:37:31] It's like a parent saying just do it. Do you think anyone's woken up because of the gateway?

[00:37:35] Because of your podcast on her? I've had people reach out and thank me and say,

[00:37:38] like, maybe they were having questions. You know, you hear this term, like when the shelf broke?

[00:37:42] Yes. We talk about it a lot. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Some people like they had kind of things

[00:37:47] piling up, but it's like, once they listen to the gateway, it was like, oh, this all

[00:37:50] comes very clear. Yeah. My ex, the gateway was an introduction for her to Tiel Swann.

[00:37:55] And we're still friends and she will now post Tiel Swann Instagram posts and TikToks

[00:38:00] on her Instagram. And she's like, yeah, you were my gateway to Tiel. Oh, shit.

[00:38:04] And she's like, yeah, she's, she's definitely controversial. There are things I don't like,

[00:38:08] but you know, she's like, when she's right, she's right. So dangerous though, all of these

[00:38:11] people that we're discovering there, they're obviously it's good stuff on the outside.

[00:38:14] Otherwise why do you get in? There's a lot of beautiful, wonderful teachings that

[00:38:17] they're pulling from. And then like, you know, and a lot of those teachings like

[00:38:20] were due for an update. So it's like they're giving an update and kind of

[00:38:23] she's throwing in some Tielisms and like making it more accessible in the internet age.

[00:38:28] And that's good, you know? Like also it's like maybe some proper credit to like the

[00:38:32] Eastern religions that you're pulling from. I just would be really uncomfortable if there was a

[00:38:36] Sarah tribe, you know, like there's a certain personality that relishes that,

[00:38:41] you know, and that wants that. And I think that's where she derails. And I'm wondering,

[00:38:45] did she have any contact with you after gateway came out or did you talk to her?

[00:38:48] Or was it a response? Or do you know what she thought of it?

[00:38:51] I don't think they listened to it. They were very upset because they said they had to cancel some

[00:38:55] events because the controversy around it. I wrote some articles for Gizmodo for each episode

[00:38:59] and they asked me to take down the articles. Did you? No, no. Yeah, there's no reason. And

[00:39:03] they certainly didn't like the reaction. I don't think they listened to it. You know,

[00:39:06] I feel like it was pretty balanced. And I gave in her and her followers some

[00:39:10] space to explain like what she brings to them. I reached out to them afterwards

[00:39:14] because somebody's interested in developing into a doc series. And at first they were

[00:39:18] like, why would you reach out to us? And I was like, okay, well, somebody wants to make a doc

[00:39:22] series about Teal. They're like, okay, we'll talk to them. And they did.

[00:39:24] Yeah, they did. And that's coming out mid-May on Hulu Freeform.

[00:39:28] We just watched the trailer. Okay, so this is my burning question. Like if they know that every

[00:39:34] time that they've kind of had an expose on them, it hasn't gone to their liking. Why invite

[00:39:39] more? Is it arrogance? Is it like people are going to see it or is it like,

[00:39:44] why would they bring that upon themselves? I don't understand it.

[00:39:48] I mean, maybe y'all know more than me, maybe you can't talk about it, but I heard

[00:39:50] Keith is in the second season of The Val. We've heard that too.

[00:39:54] I can explain that because Keith's backs against the wall. He was never going to

[00:39:59] willingly bring in a neutral party that he didn't know that he could curate how

[00:40:03] the filming was going to go and have a trustworthy team to do that. Now he's in

[00:40:07] a position where he's throwing Hail Marys and he's going to convince whoever he can

[00:40:11] convince and that he didn't do the New York Times article, invite a reporter in until

[00:40:15] New York. He had a tsunami of evidence mounted against him and he had to enter an arena where

[00:40:21] he had to answer questions. And he lied. He lied from the get every question he did.

[00:40:26] And I don't think Teal's in that situation. There's nothing legally going on and there's

[00:40:29] nothing going on. And she thinks she's doing right. Keith knows he didn't.

[00:40:33] That's what I kind of have to think. Yeah, it seemed like when she agreed to be filmed,

[00:40:37] she thought if people see for their own eyes, that's what I told her. I was like,

[00:40:40] look, look, you didn't like the podcast. It was told through my perspective.

[00:40:44] I tried to be as balanced and includes many voices, but people can only experience so much

[00:40:48] through that. Whereas if you see Teal, there's more to take from their own opinion from. Yeah,

[00:40:52] I think she sees it as a platform. That's why they agreed to participate in these things

[00:40:57] is because it's a way of getting their message out. And again, she I think

[00:41:00] understands that it's not going to work for everybody. It's going to be controversial.

[00:41:03] So it's a numbers game. Yeah.

[00:41:05] And also keep in mind, like for the whole time that we were in Nexium, there was articles written

[00:41:09] and nobody was allowed in. There was no access. And just to clarify what Nipi was saying,

[00:41:14] like he could have, you know, the Times Union was in his backyard. He refused to give a statement.

[00:41:19] His whole thing was when you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

[00:41:24] So basically his whole thing was if I justify with a response, then what was

[00:41:28] that? There was a quote about that right, Nipi. If I justify it.

[00:41:31] If I stop to block every sling and arrow that's thrown at me, they now control me in my time.

[00:41:36] Which has some truth to it. Yeah.

[00:41:38] It does. It does. Yeah.

[00:41:39] So he just like refused to engage.

[00:41:42] But he made it a noble move to not do it.

[00:41:44] He was a noble thing.

[00:41:45] I've reached out to a lot of spiritual leaders and they don't engage.

[00:41:50] I've reached out to Bantino. He's very closed off, more strategic around that.

[00:41:53] And then I've reached out to some, they just like immediately respond to my DM.

[00:41:56] Different people, you know, I think it's you kind of hit them where they are in their

[00:41:59] career, if they're open to that.

[00:42:01] Have you ever had any contact with other ex or current Nexium members?

[00:42:05] Yeah. I have a good friend who actually, you know, she ended up introducing me to others.

[00:42:09] But it's funny how we met. I didn't know this the time. So we matched on Bumble.

[00:42:14] She had been out of Nexium for four months or so.

[00:42:17] Fresh.

[00:42:17] Yeah. And he had kind of moved out and was starting this new life.

[00:42:20] And I think it was when the news hit, Keith had been arrested and it was just

[00:42:23] all over the news. And she was like, oh my God, I just need to like need a random dude in Brooklyn.

[00:42:26] And we matched. She was like, I just need to meet somebody who has like nothing to do with cults.

[00:42:31] Yeah. It doesn't know this world and we matched and we met up. There's like a drink and so what

[00:42:35] do you report on? Like what were you doing in Costa Rica? I was like, wow, it's kind of weird.

[00:42:39] I was reporting this sort of spiritual guru. She looked controversial. People call her

[00:42:43] cult theater. So like, oh my God, what are they?

[00:42:47] She can't escape.

[00:42:48] Yeah. Oh my God.

[00:42:49] And she was like, all right, this guy is either going to understand

[00:42:52] or he's going to exploit my story. And fortunately, I was human about it.

[00:42:56] And we talked about it. And I think for her, it was good to have a friend who understood.

[00:43:01] And for me, I mean, it was very, it's been very informative of my reporting.

[00:43:04] What did you learn?

[00:43:05] I was finishing up the gateway after that, the gateway was just the podcast about Teal Swan.

[00:43:10] After that, I started reporting on the fellowship of friends.

[00:43:12] And for that one, I interviewed about, I spoke to about 100 people.

[00:43:16] I spent three years on the compound getting to know them a week or two here and there

[00:43:19] throughout that three year period and interviewed a lot of survivors.

[00:43:22] And with that one, there's just a lot more, maybe hundreds of young men have been sexually exploited

[00:43:27] and possibly trafficked over, I mean, it's been around for 50 years.

[00:43:30] And I spoke to a lot of abuse survivors that told me their stories.

[00:43:33] With that, just the way that I had to present it, you know, it's like, you're making this

[00:43:38] product that is for consumption. I mean, on some level, it has to be engaging

[00:43:42] and almost entertaining. But it is about people's trauma.

[00:43:46] You know, people are trusting you with their story and a lot of times to protect

[00:43:49] their anonymity, I guess just with the editing of that, just being sensitive to that.

[00:43:53] And there were some things I was like, Hey, if this was you telling your story,

[00:43:55] like how would you appreciate it? Like you heard this and like,

[00:43:58] is the music here does feel too dramatic? My biggest fear is making like a work of

[00:44:02] trauma porn, you know, like exploiting people's stories who like, they trust you

[00:44:06] and then re traumatizing a survivor, they give you your trust.

[00:44:08] So I think there were so many times where Becca was sort of the voice on my

[00:44:11] shoulder as I was editing or interviewing, like what would she think if she heard this

[00:44:15] and would she be disappointed? That's been hugely impactful.

[00:44:19] That's invaluable. Well, good for you. Good for you for even wanting to do that.

[00:44:23] Sarah and I got lucky with the bow. And I wish that Becca had been on the

[00:44:27] shoulder of the people who made bad vegan with Sarma because they did the opposite

[00:44:31] of what you just said in my humble opinion. I know you haven't finished it yet,

[00:44:35] but if you do, I think you'll know what I mean is just like she's not only

[00:44:38] still in trauma whilst being interviewed, but they didn't do her right.

[00:44:44] And also I don't think they knew what they were looking at,

[00:44:46] but that's the thing that I disagree with is that they did because they interviewed

[00:44:49] a cult expert and they didn't use it. Either they didn't know what they were looking at or

[00:44:53] they did and they chose to be insensitive to it. Yeah, I only watched first episode

[00:44:57] because it's like there's so many of those and I'll watch them and I'm like,

[00:44:59] I already know I'm gonna get mad if I finish. Yeah, I know.

[00:45:03] Yeah, I told you, I was listening to you all's interview with the survivors of

[00:45:09] Ventino. I really appreciated and respected how you were very hyper aware of this.

[00:45:14] They are processing their trauma, giving them the space and the time to talk about that.

[00:45:17] And Sarah, I think you said it was kind of like therapy and you're like,

[00:45:20] I can only do so many of these type of interviews, but it's a lot. And it's like, yeah,

[00:45:24] so many times where survivors will tell me like it's the first time they've really told the story

[00:45:28] in a full time. You know, they're like, I, you know,

[00:45:30] that sometimes I wrote about it or processed it because I did, you know,

[00:45:32] I do a lot of everything I could to kind of fact check and look through like the first

[00:45:34] time they wrote a letter about her or a diary or an entry fact check,

[00:45:37] their allegations because they're very serious. It's the first time they've kind of told their

[00:45:40] story and went to a he said way and they're like, wow, this is like therapy. I'm like, no,

[00:45:43] no, no, no, I am not a therapist. Like absolutely should get a therapist, but I am just trying to

[00:45:48] help them tell your story. Just reminding them of that goes a long way. I think

[00:45:51] absolutely. And I appreciate that the same time one of the big things I've learned in

[00:45:55] cult recovery or any kind of course of control abuse narcissistic, all that stuff is one of

[00:46:01] the main things. Well, at least certainly for me has been talking about it, especially in

[00:46:04] a lot of these groups where you're silenced and you lose your voice and you lose your

[00:46:08] free will just to even speak and say this happened is a huge cathartic release.

[00:46:14] Which is part of the whole I got out community and, you know, people writing their stories,

[00:46:18] sharing their stories, blowing this lid off the shame and all that.

[00:46:20] Yeah. I'm sure you get this a lot, but people who will message me, they'll tell me their story.

[00:46:25] And I'm like, I don't know if I can do anything. If I can report out the story or

[00:46:28] just there's certain issues, but they're just like, I just needed to tell somebody

[00:46:31] and you they know that you know it and you're going to hear them and believe

[00:46:34] they're not going to feel shame for how could you get pulled into this? Because

[00:46:38] I genuinely believe anybody can get pulled into a cult like group use of or spiritually

[00:46:42] view some situation. So yeah, I think for some it's telling somebody who's in that

[00:46:46] in that world and covers it like you or me.

[00:46:48] I think we found that with all the experts we've interviewed and survivors,

[00:46:52] but also people like yourself. You had a story, you had your own experience

[00:46:55] with things lining up, right? That there's this understanding of yes,

[00:46:59] it could happen to anybody. And until then you're susceptible.

[00:47:02] And a template, so to speak of what to be sensitive to. And I think a lot of

[00:47:07] what allows these people in these positions to thrive, the gurus or whatever, is they know when

[00:47:12] someone leaves, they're generally not in any position to share their story in a way that's

[00:47:17] concise, believable and they do sound a little bit crazy. And then people think, oh, I would

[00:47:22] never fall for that or whatever. So it humanizes it.

[00:47:24] I mean with a lot of the men who I spoke to who were in the fellowship of friends,

[00:47:27] because the leader for one thing, he was very homophobic for years didn't allow gay

[00:47:31] relationships. But according to a lot of the men I spoke to, he was sexually abusing these

[00:47:36] young men and he was only interested in straight ones. I heard from a lot of gay men who were like,

[00:47:40] yeah, you know, interested in me. But he would groom the men and get them alone and then reveal

[00:47:43] to them that he's a goddess in a man's body and they couldn't deny the goddess or they might be

[00:47:46] doomed to dying and going to hell. And so these men who had this experience,

[00:47:51] you know, especially years later, they're like, I couldn't tell anybody about it.

[00:47:54] Especially with male sex abuse, there's just a different kind of stigma and shame, you

[00:47:58] know, especially I think it was, I don't know if it was by design or what, but with all these

[00:48:02] straight men especially they just didn't want to speak about that. And so I think that's part of

[00:48:05] the reason he's sort of been able to get away with it with maybe like, you know,

[00:48:08] been like possibly hundreds of people who could have exploited and abused. And you know,

[00:48:12] they're telling me that it's only now through like the coverage of the Me Too movement and

[00:48:17] Nexium and Larry Nassar, they were like, they finally had this sort of psychological

[00:48:20] vocabulary to explain these things. They're like, well at the time, I didn't think it was

[00:48:24] rape because he didn't have a gun to my head. But now I realized like, he made me believe

[00:48:28] he controlled if I lived or died or what happened to my very mortal soul. So like it was like this

[00:48:31] ultimate gun. So I couldn't, you know, they understand like the power dynamics there.

[00:48:35] It's heartbreaking, but it's definitely hopeful and inspiring to see these men finally understand.

[00:48:54] And help support what a little bit Calty is doing. And you know what? That's a great idea.

[00:48:58] Thank you for that. And as we've gotten to know other podcasters and learn more about this whole

[00:49:03] podcast thing, we've been learning that it takes a whole lot of different resources

[00:49:08] and different sources of revenue and listener support to keep it rolling. Sponsorships

[00:49:12] and ads and the occasional appeal to amaze balls listeners like you. That's why we added

[00:49:18] a way for anyone who wants to support the show to do exactly that. You can go to a

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[00:49:27] notes to make a one time contribution or a recurring one. We will pay your support forward

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[00:49:37] it's a little bit Calty.com slash support or check out the link in our Instagram bios.

[00:49:41] Next up, we really got to figure out what to call you our listenership.

[00:49:45] A LBC nation flying monkeys. We're going to have to workshop that. Thanks guys.

[00:49:52] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self care non-negotiables?

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[00:52:06] The Fellowship of Friends. I first heard about it from Teal's then husband, her ex. He, I believe,

[00:52:12] bought the Spiritual Retreat Center and then he kind of seems like he left his family behind

[00:52:16] and joined the Teal Tribe and they married her, bought this retreat center and then they kind

[00:52:21] of seemed like he just kind of divorced him and he went off and started his own spiritual

[00:52:25] group, changed his name. But anyway, he told me that his spiritual journey began when he

[00:52:30] was in this group called the Fellowship of Friends and he's written about it online. I looked into it

[00:52:35] and it sounded just strange and fiction. I mean, it's this sort of monastery of refinement out in

[00:52:40] California. They have this vineyard. They collect Renaissance art. One of the things is in order

[00:52:44] to achieve higher consciousness, it helps you to surround yourself with all the finest things in

[00:52:48] life which are very like objective to what the leader likes. So it's like Renaissance art,

[00:52:52] fine wine. They have 44 angels that oversee them. It's Shakespeare Rembrandt, the Vincci Bach.

[00:52:58] And so I heard this and I was like, this sounds like truly strange than fiction. I need to check it

[00:53:03] out. I found out they had like a doomsday coming up because the leader gets these omens from the

[00:53:07] end. He's the only one who can talk to 44 angels and he's going to be an angel himself when he

[00:53:11] dies. He gets his messages for like when the world's going to end. And so I was like, I want to

[00:53:15] get out there because how often am I going to like observe a spiritual group as they prepare for

[00:53:19] the doomsday? I showed up. They invited me to start with like a wine tour because

[00:53:24] they have this vineyard. They were like pioneers of the natural wine movement.

[00:53:27] You know, they welcomed me to a wine tour and then they looked in and they're like, we're not so sure.

[00:53:30] Wait, in the article that was in SFK, the exact words that they used, and I'm just wondering if

[00:53:36] you caught this. They said that they were the vanguard of the natural wine movement,

[00:53:40] which I thought was an interesting choice. You said pioneer.

[00:53:44] So they're their winemaker who's now left. He was seen as sort of vanguard of the

[00:53:48] natural wine movement because they were like no pest. You know, this was a time when like

[00:53:51] wineries becoming very industrialized. This was like sacred land and a sacred wine. So they just

[00:53:55] stripped all that out. But I was trying to describe them. And I think, I don't know if I used vanguard

[00:54:00] or pioneer in the podcast. I don't know if he was trying to signal. I mean, obviously,

[00:54:05] I went to your getting out. It's like, that's what Keith called himself. First they were like,

[00:54:08] no. And then they're like, yes, the no. Then and then I came back to them. I was like,

[00:54:12] I'm really just trying to, but again, at the time, I was like, I just want to see this

[00:54:15] world. It sounds unreal. And so I went for the doomsday. And you know, they had this

[00:54:20] like final black tie dinner. Everybody's supposed to die except for them. And they're going to kind

[00:54:24] of build this new world based on their beliefs. And Robert, the leader will be kind of this new

[00:54:30] world leader. And they're pulling from all the teachings of all the angels and all that.

[00:54:34] And I just want to see it. It was like, it was fascinating. I mean, the wine was incredible.

[00:54:39] Everybody was like dressed in these like tuxes and gowns. And there's this like gala.

[00:54:43] And of course the world didn't end. And that's the whole thing we get into more. But

[00:54:47] as I was there, I started talking to more people and started hearing about the sex rituals.

[00:54:52] And I was like, I think there's more here. So I kind of kept coming back and ended up speaking

[00:54:57] to more and more survivors. This leader has this pattern for like 50 years of exploiting young

[00:55:03] straight men. And then now it's kind of gotten just a whole other level. I mean,

[00:55:07] I interviewed men who said they participated in these like the leader, Robert would try to have

[00:55:11] sex with 100 men in one day. And these men would say they were just like waiting to go in the

[00:55:16] bedroom. It was like, they described it like a line for the DMV and he was just doing sometimes

[00:55:20] like five at a time. And but yeah, these were all men who like, they were sort of groomed into it.

[00:55:24] So just to give you a sense of the scale. So that's when I was like, yeah, this is

[00:55:27] I mean, we spent again, it was three years, I had to make sure the reporting was airtight.

[00:55:32] We got fact checker lawyer. And is he still alive? Richard? Yep. He's still alive and

[00:55:36] still seems how does he's like 81 or two. We interviewed Spencer Schneider, Manhattan

[00:55:41] Colt story and the teachings of what they he called the work at the center with the group

[00:55:50] were all from the fourth way from Gershiff. Yeah, that's the teachings that the fellowship is based

[00:55:55] on but there's even a stronger connection. So that Colt that he wrote about in the book was

[00:56:00] Sharon Gans was the leader. Yes. And she was an actress who was in Slaughterhouse 5

[00:56:05] and she kind of built this it's again, it seems like a very eyes wide shut. It's like

[00:56:08] Manhattan elite. Yes. So she got into that when she started a cult with her then husband, Alex Horn

[00:56:14] in California called the theater of all possibilities. Right. He was an actor and it was

[00:56:18] kind of this fourth way like theater performance stuff and Robert Burton, the leader of the

[00:56:22] fellowship was in that cult with Alex Horn and Sharon Gans is the leader. Okay. And

[00:56:27] that's sort of his origin story that we pack get into in the later episodes where

[00:56:30] he was abused by Alex Horn. Alex was like, he would make people beat the gay out

[00:56:35] of each other and he would just smack people all the time and like allegedly made one man have sex

[00:56:39] with his own daughter. I mean, he was just very horrifically abusive and that's how Robert,

[00:56:45] his introduction to the fourth way. And then he was apparently kicked out for having relations

[00:56:50] with another man. Then he got in a car wreck at his head started speaking to the angels

[00:56:56] and then he decided to start his own fourth way group. So there's this sort of cycle of abuse

[00:57:01] that goes on. I mean, it's like there were many men who left the fellowship to start their own

[00:57:06] cult like groups something I wasn't really expecting. With the podcast, I interviewed a lot of the men

[00:57:10] who Robert allegedly abused. I kind of thought three years I got to the core of this rotten

[00:57:15] onion and then children who were raised in the fellowship started reaching out and they

[00:57:20] said that those men because then they were the inner circle and they had power, they then

[00:57:23] abused these children. Oh my God. Yeah. You start to see this cycle continues.

[00:57:29] Who were spiritually abused can continue that pattern. We saw that also in the O-Show podcast

[00:57:34] that we did with the leaders who then started, it was made okay by the inner circle and then so the

[00:57:39] outer inner circle start doing it to the kids. Probably going to do more on that later, but

[00:57:45] this episode will have some space between now and Spencer Schneider's book. And I said,

[00:57:50] this is Spencer in our interview as well. I was like certain that Keith had been invited

[00:57:54] to something or done some classes in the early 80s, maybe taken notes and even with the recruitment

[00:58:01] process was very similar, but also with the parties. They loved these lavish, elaborate,

[00:58:07] fancy, very extravagant, very extravagant parties. You have to keep it fun. Yeah,

[00:58:11] but it wasn't fun. It was weird. Well, that was their version of fun in an abusive regime

[00:58:16] in Albany. Nazis through parties too, right? It's true. I mean, we threw parties here

[00:58:22] in Vancouver. I'm just saying the lavishness was something that ours weren't lavish. They were

[00:58:26] just fun parties. Yeah, it makes it feel more like a secret society, like something you really want

[00:58:30] to be in. Like we are elite. Nobody else lives like this. Totally. So we're going to recommend

[00:58:36] Fellowship of Friends podcast called Revelations on Spotify for next week's episode and we'll

[00:58:40] deep dive on that. But to wrap a couple questions I had just about your process.

[00:58:44] Now that you are known as an investigative journalist that exposes these types of things,

[00:58:48] do you think that'll impact your ability to expose other calls or make it easier?

[00:58:52] I don't know. I don't really think about that at the moment. I'm just trying to tell a story and

[00:58:57] again, I went into the Fellowship thinking it was totally different story and it was just

[00:59:00] kind of where the story took me and saying with teal, like I said, I don't go and try

[00:59:04] and expose something. I go and try and understand it and share that story with people. So I hope

[00:59:08] people understand that I'm not the total snake who's off to expose them. Like sorry if you

[00:59:13] can't handle that sort of scrutiny. I have gotten many tips. I get a lot of tips

[00:59:17] that I wouldn't have if I didn't have this kind of platform. But yeah, I think my reporting style

[00:59:22] might have to evolve. It's definitely something I think about.

[00:59:25] With the tips that you're getting, are there any other groups that should be on people's radar now

[00:59:28] that you're seeing more and more of this getting brought to light?

[00:59:31] Yeah. We are in the new golden age of cults I think.

[00:59:35] Yes.

[00:59:35] In spiritual abuse but it's happening in so many different ways. Yeah, there are a lot.

[00:59:39] I mean, there are some I'm reporting on that I can't really talk about.

[00:59:41] Darn it.

[00:59:42] I'll say something like kind of, I have my eye on is in Austin.

[00:59:47] I saw a group in Texas spend a lot of time in Austin. It's obviously like Austin's just kind

[00:59:50] of evolving so quickly. But there's a lot of that kind of conspiratoriality movement going

[00:59:55] there. A lot of people who are in California got too expensive so they're moving to Austin

[01:00:00] and they have less restriction. It kind of reminds me how there's a lot of spiritual

[01:00:04] groups and gurus who go to Costa Rica because it's safe. It's safe enough that you can

[01:00:10] walk around with beads and barefoot naked and not get shot. But it's pretty unregulated and you

[01:00:16] kind of get away with ayahuasca ceremonies and all that. I think Austin has that sweet spot.

[01:00:19] It doesn't have the kind of restrict, at least during COVID, it didn't have a lot of restrictions

[01:00:23] and the tax stuff and all that. It's California had but it's very welcoming to kind of

[01:00:28] libertarian thinking, free thinking. There seems to be a hotbed of a lot of these very

[01:00:32] powerful influential gurus who are moving out there in that kind of conspiratoriality space

[01:00:36] and I've been hearing rumors and stuff of things going on down there.

[01:00:39] That makes sense. It's also just a lot of online groups that I'm actively

[01:00:44] monitoring to see how they're evolving. To me, yeah, that's where I think the

[01:00:49] regulation should be put in and who knows how to do it. I have no idea but we've heard consistently

[01:00:54] the cult of the algorithm is the influential one. With Teal, it was YouTube. She really flourished

[01:00:59] there. People didn't have to seek her out and she didn't have to see out people. It was like

[01:01:01] YouTube was delivering the most vulnerable, allowing people right to her and then TikTok.

[01:01:06] Do they have responsibility in this? How does that algorithm play into the cult recruitment and

[01:01:11] private company? I was a tech reporter at Gizmodo for years reporting all kind of like YouTube,

[01:01:16] cybersecurity stuff, Facebook. They always take action when a journalist reaches out and asks

[01:01:21] for their date because it's just like to stay for just to kill it. They shut down the Teal

[01:01:25] tribe when I think BBC did a report that came out after the gateway. I was reporting on

[01:01:28] those things and seeing how they were like radicalizing terrorists and stuff. I mean,

[01:01:32] Teal Swan, I don't think is the big concern for them or like a concern for me. I think Facebook and

[01:01:37] Google are amplifying so much sort of toxic, terrible stuff and radicalizing people that

[01:01:42] can't even begin to like try to knit that in the bud. What chaps your ass about journalists who

[01:01:48] report on this stuff? It's pretty simple when they want trauma porn and they're not seeking

[01:01:53] to understand it. Yeah, if you ever finish watching Bad Vegan at the end, it's sort of

[01:01:58] left as almost like a twist. Like maybe she was part of the con and like as somebody who's known her

[01:02:05] now not in real life, but like as friends on the internet since the vow came out and having a deep

[01:02:10] empathy for her and her story and how she was clearly in my mind conned by a sociopathic narcissist,

[01:02:16] it's just so irresponsible to even insinuate that. Let's see that a lot. I was just reporting

[01:02:20] for years like writing articles and you don't need like a clean ending. I mean, maybe a good

[01:02:24] kicker, but with a lot of these documentaries and podcasts, there's a real push for like, yeah,

[01:02:28] but how does it end? Like what's the revelation or something? And so I think there's a big push that

[01:02:32] they have to like pull that in. It's like, I don't know. I mean, it seems like that's an issue

[01:02:36] with like a lot of abuse survivors, spiritual abuse, domestic abuse is like, yeah, maybe they're

[01:02:40] sort of complicit in the crime, but that's a part of them being preyed on and manipulated

[01:02:44] and sometimes, and it sounds like it kind of built us up and then it's like, yeah, well,

[01:02:47] maybe you know, I don't know how it ends, but it seems like they got kind of messy with

[01:02:51] that. Yeah, they did. Well, I know this from talking to her is that they got her in the filming

[01:02:55] of it to get on the phone and have conversations with him to record it, to show how, you know,

[01:03:00] the crazy shit that he says to her and how he speaks with her. And in that she was playing a role,

[01:03:05] she was acting for the camera. It wasn't fly on the wall, lighting in the bottle real,

[01:03:09] it was contrived for the purpose of, you know, showing his personality.

[01:03:13] And they used one of those conversations at the end and people who watched it and even

[01:03:16] people who know us and know our story and saw our podcast were like, what? But like,

[01:03:20] but she was laughing with him. That's how they cut it. And it's so awful for me knowing the whole

[01:03:25] story that's like that they would, they would leave that doubt in people's minds. It's just like...

[01:03:29] Well, also it does two things. It empowers the abuser and it takes Sarma's trust

[01:03:35] and abuses it again to support their story and then says that she was complicit with the person

[01:03:40] who was abusing them. So she got kind of abused twice from my perspective.

[01:03:44] That's definitely an ass-chapping. How about with you? What do you, what's your ass-chapping?

[01:03:48] So what chaps my ass about teal or maybe I'll say, what grinds my gears about teal? You know,

[01:03:54] there's a lot of focus on the suicide aspect of it. And I think that kind of,

[01:03:58] a lot of attention goes on that. That's its own issue that I looked into in the,

[01:04:02] into the podcast, the gateway. But as I got deeper into it, I got more concerned about

[01:04:07] the memory stuff and how she's influencing people's memory. And that's where I got

[01:04:11] really concerning for me. I mean, we know about this with how police, they get people to say things

[01:04:16] and maybe even believe things that didn't happen. And this happens a lot in therapy and especially

[01:04:21] with a spiritual healer relationship where teal has a lot of influence over somebody and

[01:04:27] convinces them these things happen. And that can completely warp somebody's own perspective

[01:04:32] of who they are, their relationship with their family. The way she influences memory was

[01:04:35] really the most concerning thing for me. And do encourage people to watch the documentary,

[01:04:41] which is called The Deep End. The Deep End. I love the name. Yeah. Going off the deep end.

[01:04:46] Something she says a lot. You know, you have to be with me. You really have to go into the

[01:04:50] deep end of the book. Yeah. Well. And that's where you drown. There's such a double meaning

[01:04:53] to that though. So I think maybe that's what they're going for. I don't know. I can't say.

[01:04:56] Amazing. Well, thank you Jennings for your time. Thank you. Thank you for everything

[01:05:01] you'll do. Imagine yourself walking into a forest. You can see the path and the trees

[01:05:10] high above you, the air is crisp. You are walking towards your happy place.

[01:05:15] Allegedly, allegedly say it with me. Anything said here on this podcast about alleged cults,

[01:05:22] alleged MLM schemes, alleged douchebaggery, mindfuckery, criminality, spiritual fraud,

[01:05:28] or the like is offered purely as commentary because the views and opinions expressed on a

[01:05:34] little bit culty do not necessarily reflect on official policy or position of the podcast.

[01:05:41] And any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are their opinion

[01:05:47] and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual,

[01:05:53] anyone or anything. So just let these words drift into your mind without needing to focus on any of

[01:06:00] them. You are great. You are capable. You deserve to be happy. Nobody's mad at you unless you're

[01:06:08] actually a narcissistic culty criminal. If that's you, cut that shit out. Don't be a fuckwad.

[01:06:15] But if that's not you again, you are great. You are capable. You deserve to be happy.

[01:06:21] A little bit culty loves you. I think it's really interesting. This is the first time we've talked

[01:06:28] to an investigative journalist on a subject and I want to point out that there was a time when we

[01:06:33] had been in touch with one of the survivors of Teal Swan's Inner Circle. He's actually featured

[01:06:39] in the doc that we mentioned, the deep end, and he wasn't ready to talk. And I think that's

[01:06:46] often the case with people when they first get out. It's, and it was recommended to us,

[01:06:50] don't process your trauma. It's the case with people now in our situation. And next to him,

[01:06:54] they don't want to talk about it. Don't process your trauma on film or in this case on audio.

[01:07:00] And I said, listen, you take your time and you've seen that in a couple of our episodes where

[01:07:04] people are still in trauma. For us, it was helpful in the end, I think, to talk about it. But

[01:07:10] I'm glad that we had access to Jennings. And as we said in the intro, we will talk more

[01:07:14] to the director and the producer of the deep end and learn more about Teal.

[01:07:18] So I think that like her word solid is ripe and rich throughout all her videos. You found a

[01:07:25] special one. Can we hear it? Yes, you can. This time space reality that you call life on earth

[01:07:35] is a consensus reality. What that means is that it is a co-creative experience.

[01:07:41] Even though many guides will tell you that you create your own reality because it is empowering

[01:07:46] and important to realize your power as a creator of your experience,

[01:07:50] you do not actually come here to create your own reality made for one. In a consensus

[01:07:54] reality, the mastery of relationships so as to reach a chosen state of oneness is really the

[01:08:00] ultimate goal because that is really the only way to co-create something pleasing to all

[01:08:05] individual creators participating in such a construct. Is your head hurt?

[01:08:10] The vision in my left eye just went a little bit. Okay, I got it back.

[01:08:15] I wish you could see what's happening in Nippy's face right now. It's like super contorted.

[01:08:19] Like we could go through that but I just don't... We could break it down. I just don't feel like

[01:08:23] it's a good idea for anybody. Yeah, I'll let you guys rewind that and hopefully laugh.

[01:08:27] So check out the gateway Jennings pod and check out the deep end and we'll see you next week

[01:08:33] for part two with our new friend Jennings Brown.

[01:08:37] We're sinking down to the depths of the ocean. I'm hanging on to the wind of my love.

[01:08:47] If I let go, I'll let all I could leave but I don't know.

[01:08:52] Let's keep the conversation going. We'll be back soon with more episodes of

[01:08:56] A Little Big Coltie with more experts and survivors and sometimes experts who are

[01:09:01] survivors as well as some familiar faces from the Val from HBO. If you've got suggestions or

[01:09:06] questions on upcoming topics, find us on Instagram at A Little Big Coltie.

[01:09:11] And for more background on what brought me here, my memoir, Scarred, The True Story of How I

[01:09:15] Escaped Nexium, The Cult That Bound My Life is available on Amazon, Audible and where most

[01:09:21] books are sold. If you'd like to help us spread the word about A Little Big Coltie

[01:09:24] podcast, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe.

[01:09:28] Seriously, like take out their phone and tell them to press subscribe.

[01:09:31] Takes a second.

[01:09:31] We're also available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and every major listening app.

[01:09:36] And if you're listening on a smartphone, tap or swipe over the cover art of this podcast to

[01:09:40] find show notes and helpful resources. You might also find some offers from our sponsors there

[01:09:45] and when you support our sponsors, you help us keep this podcast going.

[01:09:48] Just don't be a little bit culty about it.

[01:09:50] A Little Big Coltie is executive produced by me, your co-host Sarah Edmondson and Anthony

[01:09:55] Nippy Ames.

[01:09:56] That's me.

[01:09:57] Associate producer is Jess Tardy. Produced, edited, mixed and mastered by citizens of sound.

[01:10:03] Our amazing theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin.

[01:10:09] I'm Sarah Edmondson and thanks for listening to A Little Big Coltie.