Bigger Than the Pope: Jennings Brown on Teal Swan & The Fellowship of Friends (Part 2)

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[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it?

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[00:01:58] Well, this is part two of Two Parter obviously with Jennings Brown.

[00:02:21] That is true. It is part two of Two Parter.

[00:02:24] Before we get into that, we've just been really enjoying the commentary after episode one. People sharing their thoughts on Teal Swan.

[00:02:31] A lot of ex-members reaching out thanking us for exposing her people who are just terrified to speak, which kind of goes to show you maybe there's something she needs to look at as opposed to just being the smartest and most enlightened.

[00:02:47] I don't know. She just basically demands that you believe who she is. Can I read the Instagram post?

[00:02:52] Yeah. There was an Instagram post from somebody that we just thought really nailed it.

[00:02:54] There's an Instagram post that drilled it and don't take our word for it because we're not experts, but this one is from Outdoor Mamacita.

[00:03:03] Thanks Outdoor Mamacita.

[00:03:05] As a clinical licensed trauma specialist of 25 years, licensed trauma specialist. Key phrase there. Right?

[00:03:14] It means you've been peer reviewed. It means you have standards and practice that are in place. Of 25 years, I have one simple statement.

[00:03:20] Although someone has experienced trauma in their life, it does not mean they have the capacity to guide others through their own healing of trauma.

[00:03:29] The big difference between a clinical trauma expert and someone who profits from supporting trauma survivors.

[00:03:34] Clinical experts do not gain power or idolization nor claim to quote heal people from their trauma.

[00:03:40] They're not fostered or create dependencies for any secondary gain.

[00:03:43] Nobody knows who we are and we never get recognition for our work.

[00:03:46] And this is okay because it is never about us to begin with.

[00:03:50] Our approach is much the opposite.

[00:03:52] We believe through proven medical clinical practices such as EMDR that people heal themselves with the increased insight, expression of grief, correct coping tools for the individual consistent practice of boundaries slash communication and re-learning how to trust themselves basically rewiring neuro pathways.

[00:04:12] And so much more under the clinical guidance of an expert.

[00:04:16] I love your podcast and Teal Swan has triggered me in multiple ways.

[00:04:19] More importantly, her hyper focus of attracting people who are deeply wounded and vulnerable.

[00:04:24] I understand many quote gurus do the same but she is fucking completely overt about it.

[00:04:29] You know, she says some other comments, but I think that articulates the abuses of power, which is what our podcast is really about, of what Teal Swan is doing and doing it without consent with her followers.

[00:04:39] And that's someone who is in a field of those standards and practices compared to someone who's demanding that you believe who they say they are.

[00:04:48] And to me, that person, Mama Sita nails it.

[00:04:51] You had one as well, Sarah.

[00:04:53] Yeah, well I just actually wanted to share and we'll put this in our show notes.

[00:04:55] Teal Swan did come up with a video with her response to the first episode of the deep end and as well she posted a blog about her response to sort of the media in general.

[00:05:05] And, you know, we could spend our time breaking it down similarly to how we broke down Bento Box's response to allegations of abuse.

[00:05:14] And it's a very similar thing.

[00:05:16] You could see why these two are so similar because if she is truly so enlightened, really the appropriate response is clearly she's hurt people.

[00:05:25] This is in the documentary and she just takes no responsibility but somebody who has absolutely would and she's double binding the audience.

[00:05:33] Can you explain the double binds that she uses?

[00:05:36] A double bind is essentially committing an ethical conundrum with the person where by their own definition that they've agreed to, if you expose them to a different definition, it basically exposes that they're not demonstrating being the person they claim to be.

[00:05:51] So for example, if I say to Sarah and this is oftentimes sales tack it, Sarah, wouldn't you agree that all successful people are the kind of people that are aware of their limitations and are constantly working on them?

[00:06:03] Yes.

[00:06:05] Of course.

[00:06:07] Great. Now based on your definition, I can ask the following question. Great. Where do you think you're limited in your life? If you say no, I'm not, that means you're not a successful person based on the definition we just agreed upon.

[00:06:17] Isn't that also a preempt?

[00:06:19] Preempt is what she does as well when she says this is going to be hard for you. Some of you might not be able to do it. So if you do do it, you're tough in a subtle way.

[00:06:27] If you don't, you weren't strong enough to go through my training and going through therapy shouldn't require you to be strong enough and tough. You're going to be vulnerable. So right away there's just all kinds of abuses going on.

[00:06:39] Yeah. She says in her video this is not for people who are not ready for reality. Basically that protects her from anyone who says this isn't right. This isn't good.

[00:06:49] Well, they're just not ready for it.

[00:06:51] And she's the arbiter of reality.

[00:06:52] Yeah. We promise, Nippy, right from the beginning and listen, this is something I'm going to try to bring into season five that we're going to share some of the good things we got from our time in Nexium so people don't have to join a cult to have those nuggets.

[00:07:06] You can get it out of books. You can get out of podcasts and whatnot. One of the things that I liked that came actually out of the SOP training was these bullshit sessions.

[00:07:15] And I know you remember them well because you used to run them, but the good part of it is that like somebody would explain something that was going on in their life instead of yemming them, which is what we did in ESP executive success programs in SOP.

[00:07:27] You'd say, that's bullshit. So like how is that bullshit? And this happens all the time. Like people tell me things. They come up with some bullshit excuse as to why they didn't do X, Y or Z or follow up on something.

[00:07:36] And I'm like, that's what like in my head I'm going, that's fucking bullshit. Right. But you can't say that in reality, but I have a little present for you, Nip.

[00:07:42] Oh yeah. Bullshit.

[00:07:44] Teal Swan defend herself and talk about how people just don't understand her and like the media doesn't get it and they use sound bites out of context. You know what I say?

[00:07:54] Bullshit. Good one, Sarah.

[00:07:58] I was saving that for you.

[00:08:00] Is that what the buildup was?

[00:08:02] That was my surprise. I didn't tell Nipi I found my little bullshit button. Let's find another one. Teal Swan says this is from her blog.

[00:08:09] My decision to not publicly directly engage with specific individuals who publicly made it known that they're against me was not only done to stay in alignment with my conscience by being the better person.

[00:08:19] Okay, so she's holier than now. It was also done because I mean what I teach if I directly call them up by name and reveal my facts and also my side of the story regarding them to the public regarding them to the public.

[00:08:29] There'll be severe consequences for them. And I've wanted to keep them from these consequences because no one knows those consequences better than me.

[00:08:34] And I would not wish these consequences on anyone. The reality is that I understand people several of the people who've come out publicly against me are not well mentally or emotionally if they were they'd be taking a different approach than the one they are taking.

[00:08:48] They're highly traumatized people.

[00:08:55] They're flailing around trying to find a better way by doing what they are doing even if it's against me.

[00:09:01] That is not to say that they should be simply allowed to do it. They shouldn't but I know what it's like to be highly traumatized too.

[00:09:05] I know what heals this trauma and I know what compounds it. I have no desire to compound their trauma.

[00:09:11] I genuinely believe that they cannot handle a dose of their own medicine so to speak.

[00:09:14] So I want to be careful to set the record straight without making the very problems that came here to this world to solve worse in certain people.

[00:09:24] Wow, man we don't even have to add a word salad to our thing.

[00:09:27] So the subtext of that is simple. I refuse to expose myself to a conversation that I can't curate and control.

[00:09:35] And the fear is that my skill sets aren't real and you will ask questions that expose that.

[00:09:41] Rather, I'm going to go on the attack while pretending to be morally superior and it's a noble move but I'm going to attack your character and say that you're traumatized and you're not qualified to hold me accountable.

[00:09:51] And I get to remain Teal Swan, guru of bullshit. Well done, sir.

[00:09:54] Come on now, that ain't even bullshit. That's bullshit.

[00:09:58] But that's subtle like you mean you know.

[00:10:01] Yes, subtle. If you don't know what you're looking at.

[00:10:02] If you don't know what you're looking at.

[00:10:03] And that's just the point nine out of nine points in her blog.

[00:10:06] I encourage you to read the whole thing and decide for yourself.

[00:10:08] So that's what we've been doing this week since that episode dropped.

[00:10:11] Well not a whole lot. We've been doing other things.

[00:10:14] And other things.

[00:10:15] So welcome back.

[00:10:17] Welcome back part two.

[00:10:19] It's going to be good.

[00:10:21] That's right. Yeah, welcome.

[00:10:24] So it's part two of our conversation with podcaster, journalist Jennings Brown and to catch you up in part one, which had with Jennings about the whole Teal Swan thing we covered.

[00:10:33] Yep.

[00:10:34] And we covered extensively the podcast The Gateway, what it's like to make revelations is new six part podcast.

[00:10:39] He reports on the three years of covering the fellowship of friends in that one.

[00:10:43] A little recap about that.

[00:10:44] It's a California based outfit that makes for some pretty interesting headlines talking about sex rituals, doomsday prophecies and fine wines.

[00:10:52] Yes, fine wines. You heard that right.

[00:10:55] According to our guest, Fof is like we like to call fellowship of friends to save some time.

[00:11:00] F-O-F.

[00:11:01] Which by the way, every time I see it reminds me that Nancy used to have the festival of flowers for her birthday, which is when she had like literally thousands of dollars of flowers bought for her from the entire organization that filled her house, which I thought was a huge waste.

[00:11:13] And we traumatized.

[00:11:14] Oh, we had to celebrate her.

[00:11:16] F-O-F also has some robust top notes of the same culty shit, patterns of abuse and serious cruelty that sounds like they came right out of the Keith Reneary playbook.

[00:11:29] So in this sequel episode here, Jennings keeps chatting with us about the breaking cult news in Yuba County.

[00:11:35] What it was like to spend three years visiting the compound and why fellowship of friends isn't as California dreamy as it sounds.

[00:11:42] Little content warning and just a word of warning here before we fully jump in, we just want to give you a heads up that this show is created for adult audiences.

[00:11:49] And we advise listener discretion with this episode because it includes a discussion around sexual assault, mental illness and suicide.

[00:11:55] If you are someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please reach out immediately to a licensed medical professional or take yourself right to an emergency room for real.

[00:12:04] We put links to the hotlines and resources in our show notes.

[00:12:08] And to remind you, our guest Jennings is a Brooklyn based investigative reporter with a deep interest in understanding online subcultures and the intersection between seeking, spirituality and scams.

[00:12:19] As we mentioned earlier, he's previously worked as a senior reporter at Gizmodo where he hosted the gateway podcast that delves into the distressed and sorry not sorry super fucked up world of YouTube spiritual guru, T.L. Swan.

[00:12:30] If you didn't hear part one of our convo with Jennings and you want to know more about T.L. Swan and that whole situation, you can check that out.

[00:12:36] Before Gizmodo, Jennings was an editor at Esquire magazine and popular mechanics magazine and his work has appeared in New York magazine, Daily Beast, CNN and Dead Spin.

[00:12:44] He's kind of a baller. Glad we connected with him. Here's the rest of our chat with Jennings Brown.

[00:12:49] JB

[00:13:03] Welcome back Jennings.

[00:13:04] Hey, good to be here.

[00:13:05] So in the timeline of reality, the T.L. Swan deep end will have dropped and that's what we talked about with you last week.

[00:13:11] There's more there.

[00:13:12] There's more there.

[00:13:13] Simply put.

[00:13:14] Oh yeah. I mean, it's incredible the amount of access they got. I know John did a truly incredible job, made it something just completely unique and remarkable.

[00:13:24] I can't wait for the world to see it.

[00:13:26] And I guess by now they will have.

[00:13:28] They will have seen at least two episodes by the time this episode drops.

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:32] And I was blown away by the access you got when you interviewed her for the gateway.

[00:13:36] And this is a whole other level obviously because it's on camera and it's right up in there in some very intimate moments.

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:44] I was really surprised like after the gateway came out, we spoke to a lot of production companies about doing a doc version of it because so much of this you really have to really see to understand T.L.'s power and charisma and the way she interacts with her followers.

[00:14:00] And there's so much of that I just couldn't show in a podcast.

[00:14:03] You know, I mean it's both in my voice.

[00:14:05] You know, you learn a lot from the interviews.

[00:14:06] We went deeper, I think with the podcast and certain things like the whole memory aspect.

[00:14:10] I think they both serve different purposes.

[00:14:12] But after it came out, we talked to a lot of production companies and we were really worried because there's so much here that's so messy and sensitive.

[00:14:19] The documentary group we worked with, I knew I could trust them.

[00:14:22] They have incredible journalistic instincts.

[00:14:24] I knew they were going to be trauma informed and how they approached this.

[00:14:27] Then, you know, they brought in, they knew John would be the best director for this.

[00:14:30] He's incredible just getting access and just kind of, I think, being a fly on the wall.

[00:14:34] I saw his film before that when Lambs Become Lions and he just spent, I think like years with poachers and you're like, how did he get this access?

[00:14:43] And it's just like you feel like you're just a fly on the wall.

[00:14:45] He's incredible with Verite.

[00:14:47] So having that talent kind of drop in the T.L.'s world.

[00:14:50] But the gateway came out and we talked to them.

[00:14:52] They were like, okay, so do you think T.L. would be involved?

[00:14:54] And I was like, we can try.

[00:14:56] So I reached out to T.L.'s team and I was like, I know you don't really have super strong feelings about the gateway, but I trust his production team.

[00:15:03] You want to talk to them and they kind of took it from there.

[00:15:06] And she, as you now know, like she was totally down to give them full access for I think three years.

[00:15:11] Wow.

[00:15:12] Which is shocking.

[00:15:13] Yeah.

[00:15:14] The results, I mean they speak for themselves.

[00:15:16] I've seen bits of it.

[00:15:17] What do you make of the decision for her to let the cameras in so close?

[00:15:20] Because I think, you know, she believes in what she's doing.

[00:15:22] And I think a lot of people will watch and it will resonate with them and a lot of people will be horrified.

[00:15:27] You know, I think she has nothing to be ashamed of whether it's ego or true belief in what she does.

[00:15:32] I mean, I think she just wanted more people to see.

[00:15:34] So I'm really curious to see if this will help or hinder her.

[00:15:37] Somebody asked me that.

[00:15:38] I was on Kate Casey's podcast and she asked me, do I think that this docu-series will help her in the long run or shine light on perhaps?

[00:15:46] Some of the abuses of power that are occurring.

[00:15:49] I said, I haven't seen it yet, but when you have that kind of access and it's very clear what's going on, at least if people know what they're looking at,

[00:15:56] it's going to be obvious, but I don't know.

[00:15:58] That's my take as somebody who's gone through this and has been in recovery for years.

[00:16:02] I think she's coercive in how she gets consent.

[00:16:04] I don't think there's clear exchanges between her and her subjects that are explicit.

[00:16:07] Very obvious to me.

[00:16:09] Very obvious gaslighting.

[00:16:10] You can always take the argument into a spiritual realm and discredit it.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:15] But in your explanation just now, it made me realize that your gateway and Jennings Brown on the gateway and his voice and his journey.

[00:16:23] It's so good, Jennings.

[00:16:24] You did a great job.

[00:16:25] So good.

[00:16:26] And also just like-

[00:16:27] So fucking good, man.

[00:16:28] It's very parallel to Josh Block's journey with CBC escaping next to him on On Cover.

[00:16:32] And then the deep end is very parallel with the vow so far in terms of what we've seen,

[00:16:37] in terms of being responsible filmmaking, trauma informed,

[00:16:40] and also showing people what was compelling about joining in the first place.

[00:16:45] Like I think it did at least so far, Malian episode.

[00:16:48] What are we on?

[00:16:49] Two or three and up?

[00:16:50] More than three.

[00:16:51] Almost done with three.

[00:16:52] Yeah.

[00:16:53] So like it did also show similarly to the vow, what's good about it?

[00:16:56] What community is she saying she's building that would draw people in?

[00:17:00] Yeah, that's the balance you have to find with this reporting is you do want to show the benefits people are getting or think they're getting.

[00:17:07] You really understand the value because otherwise you just dismiss it and you're like,

[00:17:10] Oh, how could those crazy people join this kind of thing?

[00:17:13] And that's more harmful because then it just kind of dismisses survivors of this kind of spiritual abuse and coercive narcissism or whatever.

[00:17:20] And so it's such a challenge.

[00:17:22] You have to strike that balance between like showing why these people could get into it and why anybody could get into this kind of thing.

[00:17:27] And also showing the harm or potential harm of it.

[00:17:31] You know, I think they did that.

[00:17:32] We try to do that with the gateway.

[00:17:33] But yeah, you're always going to look back and be like, did I give a potentially dangerous person a bigger platform?

[00:17:40] That doesn't mean you shouldn't cover it, but you just have to be responsible in how you cover it.

[00:17:44] I also think the pitfalls and dismissing it so quickly is you're just missing potential vulnerabilities in yourself if you don't really give the subjects the respect as to why they're able to do what they do because there is a skill set there that you need to be sensitive to.

[00:17:59] I think it does a good job of that.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:01] And great segue.

[00:18:02] Thanks.

[00:18:03] I always over point out the segues bad habit of mine.

[00:18:08] That's great.

[00:18:09] So really this episode is about fellowship of friends.

[00:18:13] They are connected.

[00:18:14] Talked a little bit about this last time, but the seed for revelations and looking into fellowship of friends began when I was at Teal's retreat center Philly, you know, watching her followers and her husband.

[00:18:24] And he's written about this.

[00:18:25] Her then husband, Ale, he has mentioned that he was a part of what he saw to cult in his 20s.

[00:18:30] And I think that's why he's like, I know that Teal is not a cult because, you know, I was in a cult and I understand cult abuse.

[00:18:36] And this is why Teal can help these kind of people, which I found very interesting for various reasons.

[00:18:41] But I was intrigued by this group he was talking about because I'd never heard about it.

[00:18:45] I looked into it.

[00:18:46] It was like this sort of monastery of refinement out in California where they had this vineyard and they collected all those Renaissance art and they brought in, you know, opera and ballet.

[00:18:55] And I was incredibly intrigued.

[00:18:58] I mean, it just seemed like this stranger than fiction Shangri-La.

[00:19:01] So that was kind of the seed and then the gateway came out and I was looking for the next project and I found out that they had a doomsday prediction coming up because the leader receives messages from the 44 angels that oversee them.

[00:19:12] And it's Shakespeare, Rembrandt, Bach, the Venshi, a lot of like male luminaries throughout history.

[00:19:19] There's one woman, but he gets these omens of when the world is going to end.

[00:19:22] So I wanted to go and see that because I thought as a journalist how often do you get to witness the end of the world through the perspective of a spiritual organization.

[00:19:32] So I went out there and, you know, it was this sort of final black-type dinner.

[00:19:36] It felt very like everybody was kind of in this trance.

[00:19:39] It was kind of eyes wide shut.

[00:19:41] I mean, just the glamour of it and this compound just has like hundreds of palm trees.

[00:19:46] And this is like deep in the foothills.

[00:19:47] Like they've moved all these palm trees there.

[00:19:49] What the sort of arborist told me is that when Robert, the leader, Robert Burton, when he sees a palm tree, he likes on the side of the road or when they're driving or whatever.

[00:19:57] He has to have it.

[00:19:58] So they will either, I think they go to the property owner and they barter wine or sell or whatever, but they have to get the tree.

[00:20:03] And so the compound is filled with these hundreds of trees, which just adds to this sort of other worldly thing because you're in the backwoods of California.

[00:20:11] Like there's all like ponderosa pine trees and then you arrive on this compound and it just, you feel like you've been transported to another world.

[00:20:18] Because there's just hundreds of palm trees and all this art and statues and like golden things and like his mansion that he lives in.

[00:20:25] This giant amphitheater, this vineyard, like this mountain vineyard with these sweeping hills and you just feel like you went through a portal to another universe.

[00:20:33] So going there for this end of the world and all that and talking to these people from around the world, I was sort of sucked into it.

[00:20:40] I mean, it was very romantic.

[00:20:41] But the closer I got and I started speaking to ex-members, I started hearing more about these like sex rituals.

[00:20:48] Wait, before you tell us how did you find these ex-members through a blog? Is that right?

[00:20:52] Yeah, they have a blog where they post it's a lot of citizen journalism and a lot of things that ex-members have dug up because, you know, there's a lot of members that were lawyers and, you know, maybe journalists are just kind of obsessive researchers.

[00:21:05] And there's also a discussion group where people post anonymously and kind of process their trauma.

[00:21:10] And I find this with a lot of groups, especially ones that have been around for a while.

[00:21:14] There's usually some sort of online forum where they're discussing.

[00:21:17] It's great because it's a way for them to process.

[00:21:19] And many ex-members or a few ex-members told me that blogging really helped them understand their trauma and find that community.

[00:21:26] It's also good just as a journalist to find, you know, reach out to people who are anonymous and say like, hey, if you're willing to talk to me, tell me the story that you've written about, then it's a good way.

[00:21:35] Yeah, so I started reaching out to ex-members through the blog and then more and more started reaching out to me because they heard I was doing a story.

[00:21:43] Wow. Yeah. When your podcast gets into those interviews, that's certainly at least for me where things take a dark turn.

[00:21:49] But before we get into all that, I have to say the way that you paint the picture very viscerally of the compound and the parties, Nipi and I were laughing just about like, you know, how truly glamorous it sounds.

[00:22:00] Whereas like if you were ever to have infiltrated Nexium and you got invited to what they tried to have these glamorous parties at this old dingy Italian restaurant on Route 9 in Albany that like they converted into like the clubhouse.

[00:22:13] And then we'd have the parties there, but there's like porta-potties in the back because there's not enough bathrooms for how many people we had that were totally over capacity and just cheap plastic cutlery.

[00:22:23] But like silver plastic cutlery. Like they're trying to be fancy, but it just wasn't.

[00:22:27] You wouldn't come if you were invited again.

[00:22:29] Yeah.

[00:22:31] Yeah, I definitely thought about that reporting this while also while the vow was coming out.

[00:22:35] I was like, what a contrast. It's like everything I guess like Keith would have wanted.

[00:22:38] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:40] We were talking about what question and we felt like the audience might want to hear.

[00:22:44] This is the second one you went into. You'd already done teal.

[00:22:47] So you had kind of.

[00:22:48] And heard about this through teal's ex husband. That's the crazy story.

[00:22:51] Right. So you've been around atmospheres like this and Nexium.

[00:22:55] So it's like there's three pretty relevant ones in your life, right?

[00:22:58] And so you started it. I'm curious as to how you understand what you were looking at at the beginning to how you understand it now.

[00:23:04] What impressions are you way more sensitive to than you were before?

[00:23:08] And like, because Sarah and I recognize when we hear it, we see a symptom or a precursor to these kinds of abuse.

[00:23:13] I'm wondering what pulled you to that number one and number two, what you've definitely learned and how you discern what's bad, abusive and whatnot.

[00:23:20] I like to both sort of talk to current members and ex members at the same time.

[00:23:25] So you're getting sort of both doses.

[00:23:27] And so when I hear things, when people are explaining like the magic or enchantment of the fellowship and their compound Apollo where there's all this art.

[00:23:35] And I'm getting sort of sucked into it.

[00:23:37] And then I like to sort of, then I'll do an interview with an ex member who sort of shakes me out of it and will give me their perspective of like that was a high.

[00:23:44] That was Robert created these, these like higher impressions, these higher experiences.

[00:23:48] Higher states, right?

[00:23:49] Higher states.

[00:23:50] Yeah.

[00:23:51] Right. And so that balance, that helped me.

[00:23:53] But yeah, it's like, I wish I had a clear example of things that have sort of become red flags to me that weren't in the beginning because there definitely are.

[00:24:01] Like just speaking with current members when they're explaining the things they like, you can tell more when they're kind of lying to themselves or just kind of like the emperor has no clothes.

[00:24:12] Cognitive dissonance.

[00:24:13] Yeah. It's like this stuff where you're like, you know what's up here, but you're telling me something else.

[00:24:17] Yeah. It's like, you can kind of see the sort of cognitive dissonance that there's this sort of glitch in the system that, you know, it's like they're, they know they're not being fully honest with themselves or me or there's like something they're kind of ashamed of.

[00:24:27] Sounds like a struggle between their cult identity and their actual identity is like, they can't reconcile that as they're trying to pitch you on what's good about it.

[00:24:34] Yeah.

[00:24:35] Because the closer I got and, you know, by the time I knew that the leader, you know, I'd spoken with several survivors who told me they were sexually abused by the leader.

[00:24:42] And one component before I go into this is to explain like he in the early years, especially was very homophobic. He didn't allow gay members.

[00:24:48] He said, you know, where he may be allowed to be didn't allow gay relationships.

[00:24:51] So it was cosmically wrong. But then it came out that he was sexually pursuing young male members and I heard over and over again, he was only interested in straight men.

[00:25:00] So talking with members like as someone were comfortable with me, they would, you know, want to address this because it was kind of the elephant in the room.

[00:25:06] Right.

[00:25:07] And it would always be like, well, you know, Robert's gay, right? And, you know, like some people just don't understand that they sort of blame it on homophobia or something.

[00:25:14] And obviously, I mean, the issue isn't his sexuality, sexual reference. It's allegedly a serial abuser. It's like they would try to frame it like that.

[00:25:22] One person told me like, well, you know, it's kind of a relief that, you know, Robert's not interested in women because I can, this woman told me, you know, I can focus on my spiritual.

[00:25:31] And I'm like, but it doesn't.

[00:25:32] Doesn't concern you?

[00:25:33] Yeah. And then with that same one, I remember talking about like Harvey Weinstein and Nexium and stuff, and they would say like, well, that was wrong.

[00:25:39] But it's like, because I spent enough time with these members to sort of talk about these other things and have those kind of deeper conversations.

[00:25:44] Because usually it's like you just interview a member, X member about the subject, but it's different when you bring the real world into it.

[00:25:50] And I was like bringing up these like other things that were going on because again, as I was reporting this, the vow was coming out and that was becoming a bigger story and all these me too cases.

[00:25:59] So as that's going on and being able to bring that up and seeing the cognitive dissonance there, that was kind of stunning.

[00:26:05] It's hard to watch.

[00:26:06] Yeah. It reminds me of, you know, as time went on, we were, you know, I was there for 12 and Nipi was there for 16 off and on and Nexium.

[00:26:14] At the beginning, we were all told that Keith was celibate, that he was in renunciate, didn't take money.

[00:26:19] He didn't believe in material possessions.

[00:26:21] He was so self-evolved that he had no attachments and need sex is why his celibate.

[00:26:25] And then as the curriculum continued and went deeper and then all these other concepts like Janace and SOP were introduced, like you don't talk about sex in the five day and the 16 day.

[00:26:34] And it was even said they don't talk about it because people have disintegrations, like they're not integrated enough about sex to talk about it.

[00:26:40] So as time went on, eventually that became part of the curriculum and we talked more about sex and how it's different for men and women and blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:48] But I think he got a little bit lazy with the celibate persona because there were times when like he'd walk into one of those parties that I mentioned that we're really lame, flanked by women,

[00:26:57] specifically two women, Marianna and the now deceased Pam Caferitz.

[00:27:00] And I remember thinking like, is he dating? No, Marianna's too young. Is he dating Pam? No, no, he's celibate. That must be his girlfriend.

[00:27:07] No, no, no, it must be his assistant. That's how I was reconciling it in my head.

[00:27:11] And then there came a point like if I question that and I remember asking Lauren like, are Keith and Pam like, are they a thing?

[00:27:17] What is that? Like what's that relationship? And it was always like, how is that any of your business?

[00:27:22] Like how does what Keith does on his own time relate to the technology and the methodology that we're doing?

[00:27:28] So that was sort of like how that was the boundary for us.

[00:27:30] There's a clear answer to that question now.

[00:27:32] Now I would ask something very different, but like it's a thought terminating cliche like we learned from Amanda Montell, then the inquiry was thwarted.

[00:27:39] So it feels like that was similar in this case where because he's this, I don't know what would you call himself like a man of God?

[00:27:46] Like not a man of God.

[00:27:47] After like grooming the man, he would say he was a goddess in a man's body.

[00:27:51] Right. So it didn't matter what he was going to do to them because it was how they would have to connect with God.

[00:27:56] Even if they weren't gay, they would be asked to perform fallatio or receive fallatio and all sorts of different sex acts.

[00:28:05] It was penetration and an oral sex.

[00:28:07] And then I think over the years it got more and more, but that's what you're talking about earlier.

[00:28:11] Having seen kind of that sort of evolution with Nexium and with the fellowship of friends.

[00:28:16] I mean, you have 50 years of the sort of evolution of the cognitive dissonance specifically around his predatory behavior.

[00:28:23] Yeah, it was the same thing like early days he was celibate.

[00:28:26] He was like this on this another level didn't need sex.

[00:28:28] And so it made everybody else they're like, okay, well, I'm sacrificing sex or my desires.

[00:28:32] You know, I want to be more like the teacher.

[00:28:34] And so in the nineties there was the first lawsuit and that came about when a security guard was sexually assaulted by Robert.

[00:28:40] And then he started asking around where other members had this experience and he found out his son also was in an ongoing course of sexual relationship with Robert.

[00:28:49] And at the time when it started, his son was 17.

[00:28:51] So they sued the settled.

[00:28:53] And that's when it became this big news story.

[00:28:55] And then a lot of members were shocked because they were like, oh, he's not celibate.

[00:28:59] In fact, it seems like people are accusing him of having sex with male students and some people left.

[00:29:04] But then the ones that stayed I think became even more devoted.

[00:29:07] And then you started having people speaking up like, yeah, I mean, I had holy sex with Robert.

[00:29:10] It was magical.

[00:29:11] And then it kind of became accepted as a part of the dogma.

[00:29:13] He realized he could get away with it.

[00:29:15] And then I think they changed the rules.

[00:29:16] You had to be 18.

[00:29:17] So they're like, well, I think they were thinking in this is the nineties as long as it's of age, it's fine.

[00:29:22] And it did make it harder to recruit, especially with the internet.

[00:29:25] If you Google the fellowship, you would find these stories.

[00:29:27] But they started recruiting in other centers around the world.

[00:29:30] So at this point, Rob was traveling all over like looking through art and that was the whole thing.

[00:29:34] He was like getting messages from the 44 angels and the art that they made.

[00:29:38] And he was traveling around and looking for higher impressions to buy and bring back to the compound,

[00:29:43] which really was just like they put it in his mansion.

[00:29:45] And so he's just surrounded by all this art, but they said it's actually for the members,

[00:29:48] but he's living in this mansion.

[00:29:50] And paid for by the members through all these centers.

[00:29:53] When I spoke to survivors, they would say, you know, I was chosen because I was working

[00:29:56] because I was Robert's type, you know, like they kind of knew his type, his interest.

[00:30:00] And so then they give them religious visas.

[00:30:02] The fellowship who had had a lot of lawyer stuff would help them with the embassy

[00:30:05] and help them move to Apollo, the compound.

[00:30:08] And many of them would have to live with Robert and kind of become his servant.

[00:30:11] That's when they found out they kind of had to it was sort of expected of them

[00:30:14] that they would have to do sexual things with Robert.

[00:30:17] We tell our stories.

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[00:30:48] A little bit cult is proud to support the hashtag I got out project,

[00:30:52] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online as a catalyst for education,

[00:30:57] prevention and healing.

[00:30:59] Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement and find resources at I got out.org.

[00:31:05] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:31:13] What are your self care non-negotiables?

[00:31:15] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:31:18] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:31:20] I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:31:23] Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.

[00:31:26] Like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature.

[00:31:30] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:31:33] Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me

[00:31:36] and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:31:39] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:31:42] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority.

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[00:32:34] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family.

[00:32:38] But everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:32:41] I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for help.

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[00:32:49] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name.

[00:32:51] Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism

[00:32:55] and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

[00:32:59] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:33:03] So the dependency is created?

[00:33:08] Yeah.

[00:33:09] They feel stuck?

[00:33:10] Yeah, he's the reason they're in America with a system they don't understand.

[00:33:13] You know, their landlord, their boss, their spiritual father.

[00:33:16] I mean it's technically sex trafficking, right?

[00:33:18] Legal sex trafficking.

[00:33:19] It appears to be that way allegedly.

[00:33:21] I mean if they're going through the legal means to do it,

[00:33:24] he's found a loophole or he has protection.

[00:33:26] And so he's been able to get away with this for so long

[00:33:29] and you had that case in the 90s where it was settled

[00:33:31] and I think he really does think he's above the law

[00:33:33] and everybody else, you know, and I talked to members about it,

[00:33:35] I think they just sort of, they're like, that's not my business.

[00:33:38] Other gurus in the past have had lovers.

[00:33:40] It's not my business but the scale of it,

[00:33:42] I mean to me at first was absolutely unfathomable.

[00:33:45] I had survivors who told me they participated in these sex rituals

[00:33:48] where Robert would try to have sex with 100 of his followers in one day

[00:33:52] and usually get to like 70 or 80 or so before he was just so physically exhausted.

[00:33:56] Jesus.

[00:33:57] What the fuck?

[00:33:58] Some of these, you know, they would describe it like

[00:34:00] some of these people were in the rotation currently

[00:34:02] or he would bring in like his past partners.

[00:34:04] So that just kind of shows the scale of how many people have had this experience.

[00:34:09] But anyway, it kind of gives you a sense of like what Keith would be like

[00:34:11] if he was able to get away with it for 50 years

[00:34:13] and the members just sort of, the cognitive dissonance grows.

[00:34:16] Cause yeah, it's like now he's 80 too.

[00:34:19] And I mean he's been doing this whole life and he's been getting away with it

[00:34:21] and he has, he's surrounded by enablers that just allow it to happen.

[00:34:25] Right.

[00:34:26] There's nobody calling him out.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:28] Do you think all the members knew the scale of it in the way that you found out?

[00:34:32] I think there are kind of rumors.

[00:34:33] Like an ex-member in this is in the podcast when he told me

[00:34:36] he had heard a rumor.

[00:34:38] He's like, I can't confirm this.

[00:34:39] This was early on.

[00:34:40] I was like, this can't be true.

[00:34:41] He said, you know, for Robert's 60th birthday

[00:34:43] I heard that they set up 60 boys for him because they call him like Robert's boys.

[00:34:47] You know, they're 18 and older, but yeah, 60 boys.

[00:34:50] And I was just, my job was on the floor

[00:34:52] and I just thought this was kind of like a local sort of myth.

[00:34:54] The guy who was like, yeah, he's the wilt Chamberlain of sex.

[00:34:57] And we didn't include that cause it's like that shouldn't be glamorized.

[00:35:01] But the sex member, they all sort of laugh at it.

[00:35:03] They're like, yeah, he's just, you know, he's got this sexual prowess.

[00:35:06] I think that's just years of like them talking about it

[00:35:08] and then sort of there was no gossip exercise.

[00:35:10] So you weren't supposed to gossip and there's a lot of sort of policing him that

[00:35:13] but I think people couldn't help when they hear the things.

[00:35:15] And it kind of became this like, yeah, he's just so,

[00:35:17] he's just on this next level.

[00:35:18] I don't know.

[00:35:19] That was like my first glimpse of into how people process it.

[00:35:22] He'd left, but he was still kind of talking about like how they talk about it

[00:35:26] when they're in it and when they're kind of in a safe space

[00:35:28] like pine closed doors talking about Robert's sexual behavior.

[00:35:31] It's like, they don't talk about it, but they kind of acknowledge it.

[00:35:33] I think like they either know the scale.

[00:35:36] Like one guy told me a current member who spoke, oh now he's died.

[00:35:40] He was the pilot that he gave me a tour of the compound from his private airplane,

[00:35:44] which eventually crashed, right?

[00:35:46] The plane that he toured you in is the one he died in.

[00:35:48] So the first time we were supposed to go up in the plane.

[00:35:50] Yeah, he's like this wealthy pilot, a member who wanted to give me an aerial tour.

[00:35:53] I was like, absolutely.

[00:35:54] I would love to see a compound from above and it was gorgeous.

[00:35:58] It looked like this sort of lit up gym.

[00:36:00] The way all the palm trees are lined up and all these lamp posts in the vineyard

[00:36:03] and all that it was stunning.

[00:36:05] But we were first supposed to go up and he had engine issues.

[00:36:08] The plane didn't work.

[00:36:09] I was freaked out, but then he was like, they'll just fix it and we'll come back.

[00:36:12] And so three days later, we went back on the plane and I was like, this is it.

[00:36:14] This is how I die.

[00:36:15] But you know, my journalistic curiosity is going to get the best of me.

[00:36:18] It would be worth it.

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:20] And then fortunately went up.

[00:36:21] It went great.

[00:36:22] We didn't die.

[00:36:23] But then I got a text four months later on Halloween from another member told me

[00:36:27] Peter, the pilot had died in a plane crash in the same plane.

[00:36:30] Jesus.

[00:36:31] It helped me kind of understand the fellowship more because after that,

[00:36:34] I was like to other member and he said in the fellowship,

[00:36:36] we always talk to each other.

[00:36:38] We always kind of keep in touch.

[00:36:39] And that was one thing I noticed is like I'd be interviewing somebody and

[00:36:42] like another member would call and they would just pick it up.

[00:36:44] Like they're always in constant communication and like they really are.

[00:36:47] It's like fellowship of friends.

[00:36:48] They're very close and that was frustrating,

[00:36:50] but it was kind of touching when afterwards another member said,

[00:36:53] we're always talking.

[00:36:54] So I spoke to Peter recently and you know,

[00:36:56] I felt like I never left anything unsaid that was touching.

[00:36:58] And like, I wish I had that community.

[00:37:00] But yeah.

[00:37:01] And then Peter who I spent a lot of time with and flew with him.

[00:37:03] He was another one who kind of brought up Robert's behavior,

[00:37:05] you know, they would call it and he said, you know,

[00:37:08] I tell people, you know, there's a lot of bad stuff out there

[00:37:11] written about it.

[00:37:12] I recommend you don't look into it.

[00:37:13] If all of it was true, it would be really bad,

[00:37:15] but I don't believe all of it is true.

[00:37:17] At this point, they've read the blog posts and stuff.

[00:37:19] They've read the stories.

[00:37:20] They kind of know, but they just dismiss it and they're like,

[00:37:22] well, it's more important to just focus on the teachings.

[00:37:24] Right.

[00:37:25] We've seen that before.

[00:37:26] Yeah.

[00:37:27] Yeah.

[00:37:28] Just divert your eyes, just focus on how it helps you.

[00:37:30] And our equivalent of that in next year,

[00:37:31] I'm with the people is like, but the tech is good.

[00:37:34] The tech is good.

[00:37:35] The tech works.

[00:37:36] Yeah.

[00:37:37] It was like the tools work, the tools that Robert teaches work.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:39] You know, the next team community was strong,

[00:37:40] it was a big component of what was good about it.

[00:37:42] But the fellowship of friends sounds like a whole extra level

[00:37:45] of that in terms of like this stunning compound.

[00:37:49] It's easy to extract yourself from the dingy armpit of Albany

[00:37:53] and be like, yeah, I'm not super bought in,

[00:37:55] but like if you're, if you're bought in and putting all

[00:37:57] your money into this compound and also with the doomsday prophecies,

[00:38:01] that's one thing that really struck me with the podcast is that

[00:38:03] people thought the world was ending.

[00:38:05] So they didn't have any more money because they were spending it

[00:38:07] because why would you keep your money if the world's about to end?

[00:38:09] Right.

[00:38:10] I had thought about, well, you hear about these cases where people,

[00:38:12] you know, they think the world's going to end.

[00:38:14] They like give all their money and they buy things

[00:38:16] or they give it to the group.

[00:38:18] But here I hadn't really thought about, yeah, it's like you make

[00:38:20] horrible financial decisions when you think like you take social

[00:38:22] security earlier, all that.

[00:38:24] A lot of times these groups don't really last very long,

[00:38:26] but here you had some members, I spoke to some ex-members who

[00:38:30] they finally escaped when they were older and they just had

[00:38:33] nothing and they're in a lot of debt and maybe gone bankrupt.

[00:38:36] There's something about the slow bleed of the fellowship felt

[00:38:39] especially tragic to me.

[00:38:40] Totally.

[00:38:41] Because it's just these people, it's their entire lives.

[00:38:44] Right.

[00:38:45] So that enforces the buy-in.

[00:38:47] So when they hear these things, it's like even harder to leave

[00:38:49] because it's so much harder to leave.

[00:38:51] You don't have anything else.

[00:38:52] You're nowhere else to go.

[00:38:53] You're nowhere else to go.

[00:38:54] You don't have anything else to go back to your, if you have any

[00:38:56] family and friends in the outside world left over, you have

[00:38:58] to go, oh shit.

[00:38:59] Yeah.

[00:39:00] Made a mistake there.

[00:39:01] So you're like, no, it's good.

[00:39:02] It's good.

[00:39:03] Ignore, ignore and head down, carry on.

[00:39:06] Like there was a member I spoke to, he was kind of a

[00:39:09] freshly ex-member and he was a great interview and he talked

[00:39:12] a lot about how being in the group was like heroin.

[00:39:14] Right.

[00:39:15] So I was like a 27 year heroin addict.

[00:39:17] He was like a cult addict is what he was saying.

[00:39:19] I was like so addicted to the higher impressions and I'm

[00:39:21] so glad I'm out.

[00:39:22] And then after the podcast came out, I heard he had joined

[00:39:25] back.

[00:39:26] The poll is too strong.

[00:39:27] Shit.

[00:39:28] I didn't know that.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:30] He was one of the strongest, most compelling explanations for

[00:39:32] how hard it is to leave.

[00:39:33] It kind of broke my heart when I got that email that went

[00:39:35] back.

[00:39:36] Oh, I had that with somebody from, we were trying to prep

[00:39:39] an episode for landmark and I had somebody ready to go

[00:39:42] and then he was like, but the only thing is if I do this

[00:39:44] and then I want to go back to the community and like,

[00:39:46] whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[00:39:47] Wait a second.

[00:39:48] Yeah.

[00:39:49] You're considering going back.

[00:39:51] It's like, yeah, because I think I can address these

[00:39:53] things and make it better in the company if I like

[00:39:55] expose these things.

[00:39:56] And I'm like, you don't know what you're looking at.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:58] I wish you could.

[00:39:59] I wish you could, but call me when you're ready.

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[00:41:01] Next up we really got to figure out what to call

[00:41:03] you our listenership.

[00:41:04] Albc nation flying monkeys.

[00:41:07] We're going to have to workshop that.

[00:41:09] Thanks guys.

[00:41:11] This episode is sponsored by better help.

[00:41:13] What are your self care non negotiables?

[00:41:16] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:41:19] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:41:21] That's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't

[00:41:24] it?

[00:41:25] Well, I definitely have some non negotiables like

[00:41:27] I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending

[00:41:29] literally as much time as I can outside of

[00:41:31] nature.

[00:41:32] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:41:34] Nature is a non negotiable not enough time

[00:41:36] in the fresh air and the trees around me and

[00:41:38] I start to feel not great, not myself,

[00:41:40] not grounded.

[00:41:41] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:41:43] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just

[00:41:45] going to feel so much better all around if I

[00:41:47] make it a priority.

[00:41:48] I get so much out of it.

[00:41:49] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in

[00:41:51] their rightful place and helps me clear my

[00:41:53] mind so I can focus on what I really need

[00:41:55] and sometimes what I don't need like I don't

[00:41:57] need to be overbooking myself just because

[00:41:59] I hate to say no to people, you know what

[00:42:01] I mean?

[00:42:02] Thanks therapy.

[00:42:03] Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:42:04] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,

[00:42:06] give better help or try.

[00:42:07] It's entirely online designed to be

[00:42:09] convenient, flexible and suited to your

[00:42:11] schedule.

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[00:42:14] any time for no additional charge.

[00:42:16] Look, even when we know what makes us happy,

[00:42:18] it's hard to make time for it.

[00:42:20] But when you feel like you have no time for

[00:42:22] yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are

[00:42:24] more important than ever.

[00:42:25] Never skip therapy day with better help.

[00:42:27] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to

[00:42:29] get 10% off your first month.

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[00:42:33] slash culty.

[00:42:35] Meals bring people together, but for

[00:42:37] many families providing their next meal can

[00:42:39] be a challenge.

[00:42:41] You can help by participating in Macy's

[00:42:43] annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive.

[00:42:45] All proceeds go toward local food banks

[00:42:47] and families.

[00:42:48] Now, through January 31st, you can

[00:42:50] purchase an icon in-store or online.

[00:42:53] Or watch out for the blue Feeding the

[00:42:55] Hungry Shelf Tags, where a portion of

[00:42:57] your purchase will be donated to

[00:42:59] local pantries.

[00:43:00] Together we can combat hunger in our

[00:43:02] local communities at Macy's.

[00:43:05] There was another survivor of Robert's

[00:43:07] sexual abuse.

[00:43:08] He was kind of in the inner circle.

[00:43:10] This was a member who was chosen

[00:43:12] in Russia.

[00:43:13] They got him religious feasts and he moved

[00:43:15] there and didn't realize he was going to

[00:43:17] have to participate in these sex rituals

[00:43:19] and all that.

[00:43:20] But he's still technically a member.

[00:43:22] Even though he's now sort of woken up

[00:43:24] and realized Robert is not this God

[00:43:26] and what happened to him wasn't

[00:43:28] necessarily consensual.

[00:43:29] He's still processing it, but he

[00:43:31] can't leave the community.

[00:43:32] We protected his identity and changed

[00:43:34] his voice because he's still like

[00:43:36] this is all I know and these are my

[00:43:38] people.

[00:43:39] His job, his livelihood, everything.

[00:43:41] People who have woken up, they can be

[00:43:43] very dependent on it because it's like

[00:43:45] they've left their family and life behind

[00:43:47] to join this community.

[00:43:48] We also had that in next year.

[00:43:49] After we left there were a number of

[00:43:51] people that stayed and they were kind

[00:43:53] of like our secret moles and they

[00:43:55] would tell us what was going on.

[00:43:57] They were on our side but they couldn't

[00:43:59] leave yet because they didn't have

[00:44:01] anything else.

[00:44:02] It was great.

[00:44:03] Remember Nip, it was so helpful to be

[00:44:05] like okay they're having a meeting

[00:44:07] and they're showing your branding

[00:44:09] and you consented and then

[00:44:11] they're watching, what was the movie they

[00:44:13] watched?

[00:44:14] The Contender to Teach People, how like

[00:44:16] what the teachable moment of blah,

[00:44:18] blah, blah.

[00:44:19] It's such a great podcast.

[00:44:20] I was segwaying to something that

[00:44:21] really struck the court for me which

[00:44:23] is as I was listening, I was in

[00:44:25] virtual rapport with you as a want

[00:44:27] to be investigative journalist going

[00:44:29] like oh how is this not

[00:44:31] on the radar of the authorities

[00:44:33] and how are they getting away?

[00:44:35] Oh I see how they're getting away

[00:44:36] with this.

[00:44:37] They found a, oh let's become a

[00:44:38] religion loophole and Jennings has

[00:44:40] all this proof like I'm like I have

[00:44:42] to get this to Moira Penza.

[00:44:44] She'll know what to do.

[00:44:46] The next second

[00:44:48] is you interviewing Moira Penza.

[00:44:50] That was the exact process I went

[00:44:52] through.

[00:44:53] I was like I have the receipts.

[00:44:54] Like I spoke to the former

[00:44:56] CFO who told me yeah this was all

[00:44:58] just a way for Robert to get whatever we wanted

[00:45:00] and then the IRS came for us so we

[00:45:02] like turned it into a religion.

[00:45:03] I mean I had him saying that.

[00:45:04] He was like yeah I did this.

[00:45:06] I was like I was blind eye and I had all these

[00:45:08] survivors telling me their stories.

[00:45:10] This clear pattern over 50 years.

[00:45:12] It seemed like this is a nexium type

[00:45:14] situation but more.

[00:45:16] Yeah just a bigger scale because it's

[00:45:18] been happening for 50 years and yeah

[00:45:20] obviously different dynamics, different

[00:45:22] genders but what's next so I reached out

[00:45:24] to Moira because I was like she's used

[00:45:26] to dealing with cases like this.

[00:45:28] And yeah I was like what happens now?

[00:45:30] She basically said yeah it's very difficult.

[00:45:32] I mean it was difficult with nexium

[00:45:34] but I don't know where it goes from here.

[00:45:36] I think you need to find the Moira Pensa of California.

[00:45:38] Like somebody in the right district.

[00:45:40] Right they're also pretty protected.

[00:45:42] That was my question.

[00:45:43] I mean most voters in that county and

[00:45:45] the wealthiest voters are in the fellowship.

[00:45:47] That area is mostly kind of infamous for

[00:45:49] meth labs and weed farms or

[00:45:51] people who are in there's one gas station

[00:45:53] in town and it feels very, I mean

[00:45:55] the whole experience of going to this town

[00:45:57] it felt very lynchy and like I was in a David Lynch

[00:45:59] film like there's no service tall pine trees

[00:46:01] and a lot of the like streets are kind

[00:46:03] of like based on the angels like Shakespeare

[00:46:05] and Walt Whitman and stuff so it's like

[00:46:07] they've created this kind of town, this sort

[00:46:09] of culty town out in the wilderness.

[00:46:11] And there's one gas station, a gas station deli

[00:46:13] the people there are either like dressed

[00:46:15] really nice or like ball gowns

[00:46:17] or they're clearly you know maybe

[00:46:19] involved in drugs or there's also like

[00:46:21] some vineyards and stuff but there's such

[00:46:23] a contrast of the type of people there

[00:46:25] just how they dress.

[00:46:26] It's like you're either in the fellowship

[00:46:27] or not.

[00:46:28] So yeah it's like whoever's running

[00:46:30] in the area knows if they want to win

[00:46:32] they have to be sort of leaning into the fellowship.

[00:46:34] I think that's a big part of why

[00:46:36] they've been able to get away with it.

[00:46:37] Well even down to the sheriff,

[00:46:38] the interview with the sheriff was fascinating to me.

[00:46:40] That's the president.

[00:46:41] He calls himself the sheriff.

[00:46:43] Not the real sheriff.

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:45] It's not a real sheriff.

[00:46:46] Sorry he's the president.

[00:46:47] He runs all the business and stuff.

[00:46:48] I was like what's your role?

[00:46:49] He's like well I'm the sheriff.

[00:46:50] You know I kind of make sure everything goes.

[00:46:52] So yeah he's like the defacto sheriff.

[00:46:54] Well you could hear it.

[00:46:55] It's overt.

[00:46:56] Well you know we try to in our

[00:46:58] podcast really highlight the specific

[00:47:00] abuses of power so you know we're not

[00:47:02] just saying that's a cult but like what are

[00:47:04] they doing that's wrong and Nipi has a list.

[00:47:07] Remember we were talking Sarah the first thing

[00:47:09] they did was compel you to secrecy.

[00:47:11] That's a big precursor.

[00:47:12] Unpaid labor, there was performances for

[00:47:14] them only for him.

[00:47:15] The abuses of women, controlling others

[00:47:17] sexual lives while sexually abusing others

[00:47:19] and then they had a lot of stories

[00:47:21] that they were doing through the mythology

[00:47:23] and stuff like metaphors to make

[00:47:25] abuse normal right.

[00:47:27] Remember the mythology one where Zeus

[00:47:29] what was that the reference there?

[00:47:31] Yeah that was something that kind of stuck

[00:47:33] with me because when you leave the fellowship

[00:47:35] every time you leave the compound there's a

[00:47:37] new quote from one of the angels that

[00:47:39] everybody stops to read and process.

[00:47:41] Why is this here today?

[00:47:42] Everything kind of like Robert brings in

[00:47:44] these like illusions and people are

[00:47:46] always looking for the deeper meaning.

[00:47:47] I couldn't help but kind of think like

[00:47:49] what's the sort of subliminal message

[00:47:51] in all of this.

[00:47:52] I kept seeing like the rape of Ganymede

[00:47:54] in these early journals that would go out

[00:47:56] to centers all over the world.

[00:47:58] Like pictures of art and myths and stuff

[00:48:00] and yeah so I would see the rape of Ganymede.

[00:48:02] There's a lot of depictions of it in art throughout

[00:48:04] history where it's like a bird coming down

[00:48:06] and picking up a child, a young boy.

[00:48:08] In that story Zeus sees this

[00:48:10] beautiful Trojan boy and just knows

[00:48:12] he has to have him and so he transforms

[00:48:14] into a falcon or a hawk

[00:48:16] or an eagle and swoops down

[00:48:18] and brings him up to Olympus where

[00:48:20] he becomes this young mortal

[00:48:22] boy becomes Zeus's sex slave.

[00:48:24] He brings him as chalice and he does

[00:48:26] sexual favors.

[00:48:27] He's become kind of the story about

[00:48:29] sometimes framed as like an example of gay love.

[00:48:31] I mean it's clearly like

[00:48:32] non-consensual.

[00:48:33] I mean this God transforms into something else

[00:48:35] and takes up his mortal boy and brings him

[00:48:37] up to heaven but the only tradeoff is

[00:48:39] he has to serve him both feeding him

[00:48:41] and bringing him his wine and also

[00:48:43] sexually and I mean obviously the metaphor

[00:48:45] there was pretty clear.

[00:48:46] I mean the comparison to Robert who

[00:48:48] you know he transforms into something else.

[00:48:50] He says he's a goddess in a man's body

[00:48:52] and he targets these young men

[00:48:54] and they get to live in this

[00:48:56] Eden where there's a vineyard

[00:48:58] and more wine than you could ever

[00:49:00] possibly consume and all these riches

[00:49:02] and art but the tradeoff is you have

[00:49:04] to have sex with Robert.

[00:49:06] It felt like that kind of messaging.

[00:49:08] People told me after it happened for the first time

[00:49:10] I was disgusted but at that point I'd already

[00:49:12] done it and I found a way to process it

[00:49:14] so then they just kept doing it and I think

[00:49:16] it helps when you have these other stories

[00:49:18] of like well this has happened before

[00:49:20] in Greek mythology.

[00:49:21] Great now we're doing it again and it is

[00:49:23] a man and if you already revere him

[00:49:25] what was this like for you

[00:49:27] as an investigative journalist?

[00:49:28] Like how are you doing with it all?

[00:49:29] How do you process it and take care

[00:49:31] of your psyche with this dark dark content?

[00:49:34] That is a thing that a lot of friends

[00:49:36] ask me.

[00:49:37] I probably could do more therapy.

[00:49:39] I don't know I get so kind of

[00:49:41] sucked into it and fascinated and I

[00:49:43] don't really think about my personal well-being.

[00:49:45] I think about your personal well-being Jennings.

[00:49:47] Thank you but I'm surrounded by

[00:49:49] I have my own community of family

[00:49:51] members and friends who look after me.

[00:49:53] You know I used to like read a lot of

[00:49:55] salty stuff like when I was reporting on it

[00:49:57] but now when I'm off I'm off.

[00:49:59] I read things that consume things that have

[00:50:01] nothing to do with it.

[00:50:02] Just friends and talking about other things

[00:50:04] but it does take a toll I think.

[00:50:06] Jennings thank you so much for spending

[00:50:08] your time with us and doing this work

[00:50:10] it's so important like I know as a

[00:50:12] member of the I Got Out team hashtag

[00:50:14] I Got Out like we're always very clear

[00:50:16] on who the journalists are that

[00:50:18] we can trust to tell a story right

[00:50:20] and you're one of them.

[00:50:22] It's a real honor to spend this time with

[00:50:24] you and I've learned so much from you

[00:50:26] and I really commend you for putting

[00:50:28] your personal well-being behind.

[00:50:30] Second to delight

[00:50:32] shining. Yeah pretty impressive Jennings.

[00:50:34] Thank you I appreciate you having me on

[00:50:36] and having said if any listeners have things

[00:50:38] they want me to look into they are more than welcome

[00:50:40] to email me at JenningsBrownatproteonmail.com

[00:50:42] or reach out on

[00:50:44] Twitter or Instagram

[00:50:46] or go to TJenningsBrown.

[00:50:48] I get a lot of tips that way and it's just

[00:50:50] you know it's when people say like hey

[00:50:52] this is something I should look maybe you should

[00:50:54] look into I got a funny feeling about this

[00:50:56] or I was a part of this thing for 50 years

[00:50:58] so yeah because I'm always looking for things

[00:51:00] to take a closer look at.

[00:51:02] And we'll sign just them too we have about

[00:51:04] a thousand on our list so send them your way first.

[00:51:06] It's awesome to hear other people

[00:51:08] who've been around that thing in here

[00:51:10] their perspective and here they interpret it.

[00:51:12] Amazing thanks for coming see you next time.

[00:51:16] You can see the path and the trees.

[00:51:18] High above you

[00:51:20] the air is crisp

[00:51:22] you are walking towards your happy place

[00:51:24] allegedly allegedly

[00:51:26] say it with me

[00:51:28] anything said here on this podcast

[00:51:30] about alleged cults

[00:51:32] alleged MLM schemes

[00:51:34] alleged douchebaggery

[00:51:36] mindfuckery criminality

[00:51:38] spiritual fraud or the like

[00:51:40] is offered purely as commentary

[00:51:42] because the views and opinions expressed

[00:51:44] on a little bit culty

[00:51:46] do not necessarily reflect on official

[00:51:48] policy or position of the podcast

[00:51:50] and any content

[00:51:52] provided by our guests, bloggers

[00:51:54] sponsors or authors

[00:51:56] are their opinion and are not

[00:51:58] intended to malign any religion

[00:52:00] group, club, organization

[00:52:02] business individual, anyone

[00:52:04] or anything. So just let

[00:52:06] these words drift into your mind

[00:52:08] without needing to focus on any of them.

[00:52:10] You are great

[00:52:12] you are capable

[00:52:14] you deserve to be happy

[00:52:16] nobody's mad at you

[00:52:18] unless you're actually a narcissistic culty criminal

[00:52:20] if that's you

[00:52:22] cut that shit out

[00:52:24] don't be a fuckwad

[00:52:26] but if that's not you

[00:52:28] again, you are great

[00:52:30] you are capable

[00:52:32] you deserve to be happy

[00:52:37] a little bit culty loves you.

[00:52:39] So Jennings is great I feel like we're going to be speaking to him again

[00:52:41] down the road and make sure you do reach out to him

[00:52:43] and he's going to be able to tell us

[00:52:45] about some of the tips about something you want him to cover

[00:52:47] and as always we always appreciate

[00:52:49] you guys writing in with your suggestions

[00:52:51] and with your reviews

[00:52:53] and with your donations

[00:52:55] it all means so much to us.

[00:52:57] Yes, and thanks to Jennings for coming on

[00:52:59] and please listen to his podcast

[00:53:01] he does a great job.

[00:53:03] And obviously it goes into a much deeper dive

[00:53:05] but one thing we did love about revelations

[00:53:07] is that we were provided

[00:53:09] on a silver platter the perfect word salad

[00:53:12] and then we wrote

[00:53:14] that we had a lot of people

[00:53:16] and the people who were talking about it

[00:53:18] and you guys are so beautiful

[00:53:20] when a man crystallizes

[00:53:26] into a conscious being

[00:53:28] there are no longer any laws for him

[00:53:30] he is the law unto himself

[00:53:32] Just to wrap that up

[00:53:34] and who said this?

[00:53:36] The dude, the guy.

[00:53:38] And just to clarify

[00:53:40] that quote was not actually from Robert himself

[00:53:42] that was Robert quoting his master

[00:53:44] that people ordinarily live in a state

[00:53:46] referred to as a semi-hypnotic waking sleep

[00:53:48] while higher levels of consciousness

[00:53:50] virtue and unity of will

[00:53:52] are possible. We will find the fourth way

[00:53:54] as the basis of many groups

[00:53:56] That's gross. Don't be afraid to use

[00:53:58] your bullshit meter everybody

[00:54:00] And just say it, call people out in their bullshit

[00:54:02] we give you permission starting now

[00:54:04] But be nice

[00:54:06] You can be like, I'll settle like a little bit of bullshit

[00:54:08] Love you guys, have a great week

[00:54:10] See you next time

[00:54:14] The ocean

[00:54:16] I'm hanging on to the wind

[00:54:18] in my love

[00:54:20] If I let go

[00:54:22] of it all I could leave

[00:54:24] but I don't know

[00:54:26] Let's keep the conversation going

[00:54:28] We'll be back soon with more episodes

[00:54:30] of A Little Bit Culti

[00:54:32] with more experts and survivors

[00:54:34] and sometimes experts who are survivors

[00:54:36] as well as some familiar faces from the VAL

[00:54:38] from HBO

[00:54:40] If you've got suggestions or questions

[00:54:42] you can find us on Instagram at

[00:54:44] A Little Bit Culti

[00:54:46] And for more background on what brought me here

[00:54:48] my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped

[00:54:50] Nexium, the cult that bound my life

[00:54:52] is available on Amazon, Audible

[00:54:54] and where most books are sold

[00:54:56] If you'd like to help us spread the word about

[00:54:58] A Little Bit Culti podcast, please give us a 5 star review

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[00:55:06] We're also available on Apple Podcasts

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[00:55:22] Just don't be a little bit culty about it

[00:55:24] A Little Bit Culti is executive produced by

[00:55:26] me, your co-host, Sarah Edmanson

[00:55:28] and Anthony Nipi Ames

[00:55:30] That's me

[00:55:32] Associate producer is Jess Tardy

[00:55:34] Produced, edited, mixed and mastered

[00:55:36] by Citizens of Sound

[00:55:38] The amazing theme song, Cultivated

[00:55:40] is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[00:55:42] I'm Sarah Edmanson

[00:55:44] and thanks for listening to A Little Bit Culti