Bonus Episode: Nobody Should Believe Me

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:30] Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:38] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:49] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult.

[00:00:57] If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out.

[00:01:03] We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

[00:01:15] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content. That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

[00:01:22] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:40] We're doing something a little different this week.

[00:01:43] We had such a strong response from listeners about Andrea Dunlop's two-part appearance on the podcast over the past two weeks, and we wanted to share just a taste of her incredible work on Nobody Should Believe Me.

[00:01:54] Each season, Andrea and her team highlight a different case. Season four follows the story of Jordan Hope as they unravel their childhood secrets.

[00:02:01] After revelations that they were abused as a child, Joe bravely returns to their small, deeply religious hometown to attempt to unravel their many lingering questions about their upbringing.

[00:02:11] Was their abuse a secret? If not, why didn't anyone help them?

[00:02:14] Joe connects with her first grade teacher and childhood best friend as they begin their search for their answers.

[00:02:19] Andrea travels with Joe, hoping to help her friend find healing and to see what the future might look like for the survivors in her own life.

[00:02:25] Without further ado, here's the season four premiere of Nobody Should Believe Me.

[00:02:45] Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners.

[00:02:51] If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.

[00:03:05] Hi mom.

[00:03:07] It's Joe.

[00:03:09] I hope you can hear me.

[00:03:11] I wish you could see me.

[00:03:13] I'm so sorry.

[00:03:15] I wish you called me.

[00:03:18] In the spring of 2022, Jordan Hope made the nearly nine-hour drive from Missouri to Minnesota to say goodbye to their mother, who will be calling Donna.

[00:03:29] Donna's health had been declining and it had taken a sharp turn when she'd lapsed into a coma.

[00:03:34] Joe's sister called and said, I think this is it.

[00:03:38] I just want to see you one more time.

[00:03:42] Well, I see you.

[00:03:44] I want you to see me.

[00:03:46] I forgive you.

[00:03:47] I'm sorry.

[00:03:49] I'm sorry that you were hurting so much.

[00:03:52] I forgive you.

[00:03:54] Okay?

[00:03:56] Forgive you.

[00:03:58] It had been a long time since Joe had spoken to their mother.

[00:04:01] But even after years of near estrangement, Joe still wanted to be by their mother's side at the end.

[00:04:08] And I love you so much.

[00:04:11] I just had to have boundaries of all.

[00:04:14] To take care of myself too, you know?

[00:04:17] But I never stopped thinking about you.

[00:04:19] Wondering how you were.

[00:04:21] Hoping you get better.

[00:04:22] My life is really good, mom.

[00:04:24] Can you hear me in there?

[00:04:25] Can you feel me?

[00:04:27] I'm mad at you for not saying goodbye.

[00:04:29] Goodbye.

[00:04:30] Those are very nice of you.

[00:04:32] I think after everything, you owed me a goodbye.

[00:04:38] To say that Joe and Donna have a complicated relationship is an understatement.

[00:04:42] Pulling away from Donna as an adult has been one of many steps that Joe has taken to attempt to save themselves from the lasting psychological damage of their mother's abuse.

[00:04:51] And yet, to be here at their mom's side was also a step.

[00:04:55] Because even the truth about their mom, as bad as it was, did not extinguish the love.

[00:05:01] But like everything with Donna, even her death was not what it seemed.

[00:05:08] I'm Andrea Dunlop.

[00:05:09] Welcome to season four of Nobody Should Believe Me.

[00:05:12] This season, we will be following Jordan and Hope as they unravel the many mysteries of their childhood.

[00:05:19] If you are a longtime listener of our show, you'll likely recognize Joe, short for Jordan, as they have done several previous interviews with us.

[00:05:27] Joe is not only a friend of the show, they are my dear friend in real life.

[00:05:31] We serve together on the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy Committee.

[00:05:37] And Joe and I also work together for Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit organization in the country dedicated to helping Munchausen by Proxy survivors and families.

[00:05:46] And I think getting to know Joe so well over the past few years and getting to hear so much of their story has really given me a sense of what's possible.

[00:05:55] And I feel like often these stories, when we're hearing them in the news, they drop off after the court case.

[00:06:02] And you never find out what becomes of the child at the center of it.

[00:06:07] And this is really that story of what human beings who have been through horrible things are able to become as adults.

[00:06:17] And of the healing that can happen.

[00:06:20] I think Joe's story can tell us a lot about the process of healing and the process of building a life after you've been through something unimaginable.

[00:06:41] A note about Joe at the top.

[00:06:43] They are trans and non-binary.

[00:06:46] Joe interchanges what pronouns they use, but prefers they-them pronouns.

[00:06:50] So that's what we'll use.

[00:06:52] But just a heads up that some of our interview subjects use she-her pronouns when discussing their relationship to Joe or when they're talking about Joe's childhood.

[00:07:01] Yeah, you'll see.

[00:07:03] We'll be like driving like 60 and then it'll say 35 for like two seconds.

[00:07:07] And then it'll be back to like 60.

[00:07:09] We begin our story in Joe's hometown of Hutchinson, Minnesota.

[00:07:14] What's the vibe of a Minnesota small town?

[00:07:17] Because I feel like small towns are, I think they're kind of the same neighborhood, but then they're like, okay, just church?

[00:07:21] I mean, once you see Hutchinson, at least it used to be like-

[00:07:24] On a chilly February day where it is mercifully not dumping snow, Joe and I, along with my producer Mariah, drive out to Hutchinson, a small rural town outside Minneapolis.

[00:07:35] The streets are lined with all of these huge trees that are barren now in the winter, but you can imagine them making this beautiful leafy canopy in the warmer months.

[00:07:46] And there are rows and rows of small craftsman houses and, as Joe said, a lot of churches.

[00:07:55] Joe has come along on this journey with us, bravely, to do something that I feel like you mostly see people doing in movies.

[00:08:03] Returning to their hometown to try to get to the bottom of their often confusing childhood memories.

[00:08:09] To return, literally in Joe's case, to the scene of the crime.

[00:08:13] I lived in Hutchinson my whole life, which is like a very small town in Minnesota.

[00:08:21] Like the next nearest town was probably like 30 minutes away.

[00:08:26] So very secluded and isolated just as a town itself.

[00:08:32] What are some of your earliest memories?

[00:08:36] Hmm.

[00:08:37] That's a really hard question I feel like to answer.

[00:08:40] I feel like a lot of memories I just were repressed for so long and I didn't even really get until seeing my records.

[00:08:50] But some of my earliest memories would be being in the hospital, sick a lot, missing school, not being able to like go out and play with friends.

[00:09:06] But then also I have a lot of memories of playing with friends and a lot of memories of getting McDonald's with my mom.

[00:09:16] We all misremember our childhoods to one degree or another.

[00:09:19] But Joe's is a different story because their history is so obscured by their mother's manipulations.

[00:09:26] Her interconnected webs of deceit, not only around Joe's health, but around every facet of their lives together.

[00:09:32] The idea of unraveling it all is beyond daunting.

[00:09:36] So we've come to round up some witnesses.

[00:09:39] This is, yeah, this is very rural.

[00:09:42] Yep.

[00:09:44] This is it.

[00:09:46] Cornfields.

[00:09:47] Oh yeah, when I was little we would like play hide and seek and like hide like in the cornfields.

[00:09:54] Which I think is like dangerous.

[00:09:56] But we weren't going that deep, so.

[00:09:58] This is like the main street.

[00:10:00] You hit everything in Hutch down this street.

[00:10:03] Okay.

[00:10:05] You guys have a Target.

[00:10:06] Look at that.

[00:10:07] We do have a Target.

[00:10:08] That was there.

[00:10:10] It wasn't as popular as Walmart though, so.

[00:10:13] What is Menards?

[00:10:15] Menards.

[00:10:16] Menards?

[00:10:16] I really don't know.

[00:10:18] Please put that in.

[00:10:19] Okay, so obviously I did not grow up in the Midwest.

[00:10:23] The drive into Hutchinson is beautiful but pretty sparse.

[00:10:27] There are all these lakes glittering under the winter sun and lots of empty cornfields.

[00:10:32] Very few signs of life.

[00:10:34] This really is the middle of nowhere.

[00:10:36] I went to this church for a while for youth group as a kid.

[00:10:40] And then one day they said, today we're going to speak in tongues.

[00:10:43] And I said, I think I won't go here anymore.

[00:10:46] I went to that church across the street.

[00:10:48] Another church.

[00:10:49] Not exaggerating, as we drove around, there was a church on almost every corner.

[00:10:55] Yeah, we love a church.

[00:10:58] Another church.

[00:11:01] Joe lived in Hutchinson for their entire childhood.

[00:11:04] And driving through the place, it looks like a sweet, nice place to raise kids, honestly.

[00:11:09] And you know, we have a pretty strong archetype of what places like this are supposed to mean in America.

[00:11:14] Small towns are supposed to be the places where people look out for one another.

[00:11:18] Or, alternatively, some see these as places that are not so tolerant of outsiders.

[00:11:25] Our first stop is the elementary school that Joe went to as a kid.

[00:11:29] We pull up outside a few minutes early to a very chaotic and familiar scene as school is letting out,

[00:11:35] and a long line of SUVs and sedans snakes around the block with parents waiting to pick up their kids.

[00:11:41] I shouldn't generalize, but a lot of people who live here grow up and stay here.

[00:11:48] They marry each other, and you know, then, you know what I mean?

[00:11:52] So, a lot of our teachers are homegrown.

[00:11:55] That's why I call them homegrown Hutchinson people.

[00:12:00] So, that was, I felt like the town was kind of, I don't want to rip on Hutchinson,

[00:12:06] but I felt like it was a little clicky.

[00:12:08] Hey, how are you?

[00:12:09] I've been feeding you for a long time.

[00:12:11] Hello.

[00:12:12] Nice to see you.

[00:12:13] Hi, I'm Jen.

[00:12:14] Hi, nice to meet you.

[00:12:15] Hi, nice to meet you.

[00:12:16] Nice to meet you.

[00:12:17] Can I give you a hug?

[00:12:19] Yes, of course.

[00:12:21] Of course you can.

[00:12:22] Jen Becker, or Mrs. Becker, as Joe remembers her,

[00:12:25] was then and is still a first grade teacher in Hutchinson.

[00:12:29] The two hadn't spoken in well over a decade, but their reunion was warm.

[00:12:33] I'm sure it looks very, very different.

[00:12:36] I always felt so safe.

[00:12:37] I remember as a kid, my memory was like, you know, kid brains are interesting.

[00:12:42] So, I was like, Mrs. Becker is really pretty.

[00:12:45] Oh.

[00:12:46] And that was like the biggest thing I remembered about you.

[00:12:50] Oh, well, that's nice.

[00:12:50] She's so pretty, and she's so nice.

[00:12:53] Well, like, I don't know if you remember anything about me that you were.

[00:12:56] I remember you were quiet, and you always looked super tired.

[00:13:04] I remember that.

[00:13:07] I was like a little worried about you, so I brought you, we had like a, we have a, it's

[00:13:13] called something different now, but we had a team that, where I would, I don't bring you

[00:13:17] to it, but I bring your case to them to talk about you, because I was worried about that

[00:13:23] you seemed so tired, and it was like a little bit harder for you to concentrate sometimes.

[00:13:30] I don't remember academically anything, but I remember you being a very sweet, sweet kid.

[00:13:37] I remember you were kind of sickly.

[00:13:40] Your mom was very super mom, kind of.

[00:13:45] She was, did she like run the gymnastics program here?

[00:13:48] Yes.

[00:13:49] I remember that.

[00:13:50] I remember her saying you were going to be like a superstar gymnast, but she would come

[00:13:59] to act like mama to everybody in our, in our room.

[00:14:03] Like the mom of the year kind of thing.

[00:14:06] That's what I remember about her.

[00:14:09] And, but, and I remember her always being concerned because she said you were like ill or sick

[00:14:15] or they were trying to figure out what was wrong or whatever.

[00:14:18] She was more of the, I'm like such a role model for everybody kind of thing.

[00:14:23] And I'm not putting your mom down, tried to make herself look really like a, yeah, super mom.

[00:14:30] I always had like a little bit of a uncomfortable feeling about it, but there was never anything

[00:14:38] concrete that I could do.

[00:14:41] I was like probably in my second, third year of teaching.

[00:14:45] So, you know, I'm just like doubting myself.

[00:14:49] Of course.

[00:14:50] So I'm always, I was just kind of like, well, it doesn't feel right.

[00:14:55] What Mrs. Becker says about her memories of Joe's mom sounds extremely familiar to me.

[00:15:00] In interviewing people about these cases, they frequently describe a bad feeling that they just

[00:15:06] can't quite put their finger on.

[00:15:08] Mom seems involved, loving even, but something is just off.

[00:15:12] So I feel like a lot of memories, I just were repressed for so long and I didn't even really

[00:15:20] get until seeing my records.

[00:15:23] One of Joe's earliest memories really belies the distance between their mother as they experienced

[00:15:28] her and how she tried to present herself to the outside world.

[00:15:31] Joe doesn't remember a time when they weren't sick and their mom was often pushing them

[00:15:36] into the spotlight in one way or another.

[00:15:38] One of these memories is being a state finalist in Minnesota's American Petite Princess pageant

[00:15:44] at age four.

[00:15:46] I have very faint memories of it.

[00:15:50] I'm pretty positive my church sponsored me and paid for it.

[00:15:55] At the time I was supposedly really sick.

[00:15:58] So I'm not really sure.

[00:16:00] It's a little odd to have someone that's super sick all of a sudden wearing this like really

[00:16:05] pretty dress and putting on a show for people.

[00:16:09] But that was kind of, I think the theme of my life was one day I was dying and the next

[00:16:14] day I was doing back walkovers across the grass.

[00:16:18] So it definitely was fitting.

[00:16:21] My mom, I remember I, I guess I like grabbed the curling iron like right before we went on

[00:16:29] and burned my hand pretty bad.

[00:16:31] And I, I remember like crying and like screaming cause I was in pain and it hurt.

[00:16:37] And my mom was like, you need to stop.

[00:16:40] You need to go out there and perform.

[00:16:42] Um, so that's like one of my first memories I would say of where like, it was like the opposite

[00:16:48] where my mom didn't want me to be sick, where like me being in pain was not convenient

[00:16:53] and it was not the time for it cause it was going to actually take attention away from her.

[00:16:59] And so I had to just act like I wasn't in pain and go and perform and do, do my thing.

[00:17:07] And I ended up getting runner up at the pageant because my mom, there was a girl that was too

[00:17:14] shy and wasn't going to go out.

[00:17:16] And my mom ended up helping her.

[00:17:18] So she went out and then she won.

[00:17:20] And I still have a little bit of a grudge cause I was supposed to get to go to Disney

[00:17:25] world.

[00:17:26] But since I got runner up, I didn't get to go to Disney world.

[00:17:30] And my mom ended up ironically winning best mom award.

[00:17:36] And that I remember like she always made a big deal of it.

[00:17:41] Of course it was like a really big thing.

[00:17:43] Cause it proved that she was this great, loving, caring mom.

[00:17:47] In the beauty pageant, they had a best mom category.

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:51] So sometimes I really do think back and I'm like, did, was that a real thing?

[00:17:55] Like, is that what the award really said?

[00:17:57] Cause that is kind of like an interesting, like that, what, what kind of beauty pageant

[00:18:02] was this?

[00:18:03] I don't know.

[00:18:04] So who's to say that's what I remember.

[00:18:07] And I remember my mom making a big deal about it.

[00:18:09] And I remember me being really annoyed because I didn't get to go to Disney world and she didn't

[00:18:14] care cause she got best mom award.

[00:18:16] Hey, culty listeners.

[00:18:19] As you probably know, because we talk about it all the time, Nippy and I are working together

[00:18:24] on our manuscript for our first book together.

[00:18:27] So romantic.

[00:18:28] My first book, Scarred, has sold tens of thousands of copies worldwide and prompted fascinating

[00:18:34] conversations with people in very similar culty situations.

[00:18:37] And that book ultimately led us to having these conversations in our podcast.

[00:18:41] And now we have signed a publishing deal with the Forbes featured publishing house, the

[00:18:47] self-publishing agency, AKA TSPA to help bring this book to market.

[00:18:52] We chose them because we love how they play by big traditional publishing standards while

[00:18:58] ensuring we keep control rights and royalties of our work.

[00:19:01] You don't need a therapy session to understand why maintaining control is important to us.

[00:19:07] We're an open book when it comes to our lives, as you know.

[00:19:10] So we've decided that writing this book is going to be no different.

[00:19:13] Except unlike my first book, this time we're retaining 100% of the creative control.

[00:19:18] This new book is going to feature all of the wisdom and nuggets that we've gathered since

[00:19:23] we started this podcast.

[00:19:24] Like don't hand over all your power to corporate goliaths.

[00:19:27] Sorry, traditional publishers, you're a little bit culty.

[00:19:30] Maybe we'll do an episode on that one day.

[00:19:32] For now, working with the self-publishing agency is already a game changer for us.

[00:19:36] Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting months or even years to

[00:19:41] get a deal, self-publishing lets you take control of your timeline.

[00:19:44] You'll have complete creative freedom from editing and cover design to marketing and distribution,

[00:19:49] but with all the insight and guidance from pros in the publishing world.

[00:19:53] With the self-publishing agency, you'll keep more of your profits and maintain full control

[00:19:57] over your content.

[00:19:58] I love that journey for us.

[00:20:00] So, if you're like us and you have a story that's burning to be told, we highly recommend

[00:20:05] TSPA as your go-to partner.

[00:20:07] They offer everything you need, from expert editing and eye-catching cover design to marketing

[00:20:11] and distribution strategies that really make a difference.

[00:20:14] They've made the entire process seamless and inspiring so far, so we can focus on what

[00:20:19] matters most, the actual storytelling.

[00:20:22] We're so excited to see our book come to fruition with TSPA's help, and we know that

[00:20:26] you'll love working with them too.

[00:20:28] So visit theselfpublishingagency.com today and start your very own publishing journey.

[00:20:34] Enjoy.

[00:20:41] This podcast wouldn't even exist without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:20:46] Come find us on Patreon.

[00:20:48] We are at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:20:50] Go there for bonus episodes, live Q&As with past guests, exclusive content, and lots of

[00:20:56] other goodies.

[00:20:56] Subscribe now and help us keep this podcast going.

[00:20:59] That's patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:21:02] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culti sponsors.

[00:21:05] And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

[00:21:12] Need a break from the crowded stores and endless gift lists?

[00:21:16] Not really.

[00:21:17] Nope.

[00:21:18] Haven't even started shopping.

[00:21:20] Nowhere near that.

[00:21:21] And by the way, I think we could just riff without a script about the gummies.

[00:21:24] No thanks, chat GPT.

[00:21:27] If that's your real name anyway.

[00:21:28] Well played.

[00:21:29] Everyone knows that Nippy and I love our gummies.

[00:21:32] Loving them gummies.

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[00:21:36] Every occasion.

[00:21:37] Which is your favorite, Sarah?

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[00:21:54] Especially if you're home for the holidays and needing to deal with family members and you

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[00:22:27] I'm glad it's discreet because I wouldn't want my neighbors to know that I do enjoy

[00:22:31] partaking in gummies.

[00:22:33] What's your favorite, Nip?

[00:22:34] My favorite is Cloud9 for relief and Revive for relief.

[00:22:40] And I actually like to do it before I go work out.

[00:22:42] Relief from what?

[00:22:46] From you?

[00:22:48] The stress of life?

[00:22:50] Yeah.

[00:22:50] The stress of just being a dad in the world?

[00:22:54] I like to do it before I work out.

[00:22:55] Okay, so the Revive has CBD, CBG, L-theanine, which is so good for you, reishi mushrooms.

[00:23:02] I personally like the focus because we're writing this book and I can barely stay on track.

[00:23:07] Squirrel, what are we going to do now?

[00:23:09] Oh, we're writing a book.

[00:23:10] Focus makes me just hone in.

[00:23:12] It's partly, I think, the Lion's Mane and the B12 that just is like, I don't know, I've

[00:23:17] never done Adderall, but I feel like it's a natural form to keep me in the zone.

[00:23:22] They have some for some hanky-panky too.

[00:23:24] It's called High Love.

[00:23:25] Gets you in the mood.

[00:23:26] I guess we're going to save that for our date night.

[00:23:28] Yeah.

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[00:24:02] Double dose that.

[00:24:04] This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

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[00:26:55] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:26:59] In Joe's memory, their mom successfully fooled everyone as thoroughly as she'd fooled those

[00:27:04] pageant judges.

[00:27:05] And it's only right now, in the midst of their conversation with Mrs. Becker, that Joe

[00:27:11] realizes maybe their mother's abuse wasn't so well hidden after all.

[00:27:15] Did you know before just now that Jen had ever made a report about you?

[00:27:21] No.

[00:27:22] I had no idea.

[00:27:22] I didn't know, oh, I'm going to eat a little more.

[00:27:27] I don't think I knew that anybody in school knew.

[00:27:33] My interpretation, not in first or second grade or third or even any of that, but probably

[00:27:40] like fourth grade on, my interpretation was that everyone thought that I was faking illnesses

[00:27:46] and then I just wanted attention and I was just this like kind of bad, rough-around-the-edges

[00:27:51] kid.

[00:27:54] I didn't, yeah, I didn't, it didn't seem like anybody had any, any idea.

[00:28:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:28:02] Yeah.

[00:28:02] Well, it was just, like I said, like a, I don't know what it was, like a feeling.

[00:28:07] Yeah.

[00:28:07] I, it just, um, with your mom, it just didn't feel right.

[00:28:12] It just felt forced, I guess.

[00:28:15] I don't know what the word would be.

[00:28:16] You were probably one of my very first kids that I did a report on.

[00:28:21] So, and like I, like I said, I was, I was like young.

[00:28:25] I was like in my fourth year of teaching or whatever and you doubt yourself all the time

[00:28:30] and I see things and I have inklings about things, but I can't really, what can, like

[00:28:39] legally, what can I do besides do a report or whatever?

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:43] Um, I can't go to your house and like take you out of the house.

[00:28:47] Yeah, I think we talk about that so much.

[00:28:50] This is everything you're speaking to.

[00:28:51] I know you were like, I don't know that I have much to say, but like literally this has been

[00:28:56] one of the most helpful conversations I think I've had.

[00:28:59] Well, that's good.

[00:28:59] Um, yeah, I think that there's so much, everything you're speaking to speaks to the systemic issues.

[00:29:06] And I think whether or not I was like one of your first reports or even if I had been

[00:29:11] your hundredth, like, like you said, there's only so much that you could.

[00:29:16] And the reality is like, you are still a reason that I'm sitting here today.

[00:29:21] You were that safe enough person in my life at that time that helped me survive that year

[00:29:26] of my life.

[00:29:29] Joe and Mrs. Becker share goodbyes and we walk back out into the empty hallways of the

[00:29:34] elementary school.

[00:29:35] They're full of adorable, wonky artwork and kid-sized chairs and sinks.

[00:29:40] How was that for you?

[00:29:42] It was so good.

[00:29:44] I had no idea about the reports.

[00:29:49] Um...

[00:29:50] That is like...

[00:29:52] I feel like it makes me mad all over again.

[00:29:56] Like so many people knew.

[00:29:59] So many people knew.

[00:30:03] Yeah.

[00:30:08] It's weird.

[00:30:11] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] I think it's easier thinking that nobody knew.

[00:30:16] Thinking that like I just hid it really well versus being like, no, everybody knew and still

[00:30:21] chose to treat you poorly.

[00:30:24] I mean, not like those specific people necessarily, but yeah.

[00:30:30] For Joe, remembering their childhood can feel like putting together a puzzle that's constantly

[00:30:41] rearranging itself.

[00:30:43] Joe thought their mom had everyone fooled, in part because plenty of other adults seemed

[00:30:48] to trust her.

[00:30:49] Tell us about Donna just as a person.

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] Yeah.

[00:30:54] She, when I was little, was, I would say, pretty well respected.

[00:30:59] Like I said, she taught Sunday school.

[00:31:04] So at my church, which I think she just kind of did things wherever I was going to be.

[00:31:10] She also had a daycare.

[00:31:12] She had kids coming over to our house all the time that she supposedly cared for and things

[00:31:18] like that.

[00:31:19] But also growing up, weirdly, we always had people living with us.

[00:31:26] One of my sister's friends pretty much grew up with us for a very long time, was living

[00:31:33] at our home.

[00:31:34] Some of my cousins stayed with us for a really long time, which very odd now when I look back

[00:31:41] at it, but she always seemed to be around kids taking care of people.

[00:31:47] When I was pretty young, she started coaching gymnastics, which I was a part of.

[00:31:53] And she did that, I mean, until I was a teenager.

[00:31:57] So she did that for a very long time.

[00:32:00] And a lot of people really, like I said, respected her, really liked her.

[00:32:06] And then on like the flip side, you know, I remember riding in the car with her to the

[00:32:11] liquor store and her having me sit in the car.

[00:32:15] And I would sit there and when people would be walking out of the liquor store, I'd roll

[00:32:19] my window down and I'd yell, Jesus loves you.

[00:32:22] And then I'd roll my window back up and I'd duck down because I was kind of scared.

[00:32:27] But I remember like that was this fun little game that I would play right outside the liquor

[00:32:33] store to all the people.

[00:32:34] I had no idea what they were doing or who they were, what was going on.

[00:32:37] I thought they're just running in for errands.

[00:32:40] I didn't really understand what alcohol even was at that point.

[00:32:42] I can't really remember many people not liking her or being afraid of her or not trusting

[00:32:50] their kids around her when I was really little.

[00:32:53] That changed a lot as I got older.

[00:32:56] One of the people who spent a lot of time around Joe and their mom as a kid was Joe's

[00:33:01] friend, Bree.

[00:33:02] Yeah, no, I'm really excited to see her.

[00:33:04] Yeah, me and Bree were like best friends pretty much like eighth grade through senior year.

[00:33:12] We were like inseparable.

[00:33:14] People would always joke that we were like dating because we were just always, always

[00:33:22] together.

[00:33:25] Yeah, I spent a lot of time at her house.

[00:33:28] She spent a lot of time at my house.

[00:33:29] You pull up to a house with a red barn next to it and a frozen lake behind it.

[00:33:33] Walking into the house feels like a Minnesota Pinterest board come to life.

[00:33:40] There are little signs everywhere with funny sayings, many involving puns.

[00:33:44] And there's a cookbook on display with hot dish recipes.

[00:33:47] There's kid paraphernalia everywhere and a very sweet sleepy dog who curls up in his

[00:33:52] bed after giving Joe, Mariah, and me a thorough inspection.

[00:33:55] Oh my God.

[00:34:01] She's just so lovely.

[00:34:04] Yeah.

[00:34:04] Oh, smell, smell, smell, smell, smell.

[00:34:06] Bree and Joe met as kids at their church confirmation, but didn't really become friends until middle

[00:34:11] school.

[00:34:11] Bree would eventually go on to marry her high school sweetheart and she still lives in Hutchinson.

[00:34:19] Just tell us a little bit about Hutch from your perspective.

[00:34:26] Um, small town.

[00:34:29] Uh, lots of drama.

[00:34:31] Watching Joe with Bree is incredibly sweet because like we all do around people we grew

[00:34:36] up with, they morph back into the teenagers they once were as they giggle and reminisce.

[00:34:41] Yeah.

[00:34:42] Everybody knew everybody.

[00:34:43] Everybody knew everybody's business.

[00:34:45] What was that?

[00:34:45] Where did you hang out?

[00:34:46] What would you do?

[00:34:47] What was the draw?

[00:34:49] I just go to like Walmart.

[00:34:52] That's what I said.

[00:34:53] I was like Walmart.

[00:34:54] That's Walmart.

[00:34:55] That was like, yeah, that was the place.

[00:34:56] Yeah.

[00:34:57] Literally just the stupidest things.

[00:34:59] I don't know.

[00:35:00] It's just the only thing to do.

[00:35:01] Small town shit.

[00:35:01] I don't know.

[00:35:03] We're driving around.

[00:35:04] I was just going to say.

[00:35:05] Yeah.

[00:35:06] We drove around.

[00:35:06] We would drive around for hours.

[00:35:07] Yes.

[00:35:08] Doing literally nothing.

[00:35:09] Literally nothing.

[00:35:10] But we would always like be in the car with the boys and they're like whipping.

[00:35:16] Whippin' shitties.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:17] Whippin' shitties like all over.

[00:35:19] Yes.

[00:35:20] Donuts.

[00:35:20] Wow.

[00:35:21] Okay.

[00:35:21] Yes.

[00:35:21] I knew that was a Midwestern thing.

[00:35:24] I was like whipping titties.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:25] Whippin' shitties.

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:27] We'd like sit on Main Street in like the Genesis parking lot.

[00:35:31] Just like do stupid stuff.

[00:35:34] Bree knew Donna well because in addition to being her best friend's mom, she was also their

[00:35:39] cheerleading coach.

[00:35:40] Can you talk a little bit more about like cheer?

[00:35:42] What was cheerleading like?

[00:35:43] Did y'all do competitions?

[00:35:45] Was it just like for games and stuff?

[00:35:48] Just competition.

[00:35:49] Not in school.

[00:35:50] Hudge band.

[00:35:51] Or not band.

[00:35:51] But they got rid of cheer like right before we.

[00:35:54] Well you were in it.

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:56] You were in it.

[00:35:56] I started cheer in sixth grade.

[00:35:58] Yeah.

[00:35:58] Yeah.

[00:35:58] And did it.

[00:35:59] And then in eighth grade or something I want to say, we had this coach that we like

[00:36:06] went to our homecoming game and at like right before the game started, our coach like walked

[00:36:11] out on us because supposedly we were bullying her daughter, which didn't happen.

[00:36:16] It was so weird.

[00:36:17] But so they like literally, she like walked out on us and we weren't able to cheer the homecoming

[00:36:21] game, which at the time felt like.

[00:36:23] A big deal.

[00:36:23] A big deal.

[00:36:24] We had like our routine, like all these things.

[00:36:26] And there was like a cop like standing there, like all these, it was like very dramatic,

[00:36:31] you know, Hutch drama.

[00:36:33] And so then.

[00:36:34] Hutch is dramatic.

[00:36:35] So then my mom was like, oh, I can be the coach.

[00:36:39] And that's where I went downhill there.

[00:36:41] And then that is where.

[00:36:42] So then my mom started coaching and it became an all-star team.

[00:36:45] So we no longer did anything at the school.

[00:36:48] Nothing through the school.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:50] Yeah.

[00:36:50] Because you guys were like the Hutch Tigers.

[00:36:52] Yeah.

[00:36:53] What was.

[00:36:53] I don't know.

[00:36:54] We were the Midwest all-stars.

[00:36:57] Yeah.

[00:36:58] When, when we became competition.

[00:36:59] Yeah.

[00:37:00] Our colors were teal and zebra.

[00:37:03] We were like, when we would do competitions, we'd be like the only one.

[00:37:08] So we'd win.

[00:37:11] Which is cool and all, but we'd be competing against nobody.

[00:37:17] Like, I don't know if we just sucked or if there was just like, we were in such a small

[00:37:23] like rank.

[00:37:24] I feel like my mom like had to have like purposely put us in a big set.

[00:37:28] So then we could always win.

[00:37:29] Yes.

[00:37:29] Because she would be like, you guys got number one.

[00:37:32] Yes.

[00:37:32] And we'd always get number one.

[00:37:34] But like drop every single stunt.

[00:37:37] Yes.

[00:37:37] And like do so horribly.

[00:37:39] I feel like we were not very professional competition cheerleaders.

[00:37:43] It's like the bad news bears are cheerleaders.

[00:37:45] It's just like so embarrassing.

[00:37:48] So embarrassing.

[00:37:49] You guys have a, you guys have a very big trophy in this picture.

[00:37:52] Yeah.

[00:37:52] We got first.

[00:37:52] We're winners.

[00:37:53] We're really good.

[00:37:54] We're winners.

[00:37:55] We're really proud of ourselves.

[00:37:56] We're going to have to look up like what the brackets were.

[00:37:58] Because it was probably something like, like town size, team size.

[00:38:03] Oh yeah.

[00:38:03] And like you could find a way to then like.

[00:38:05] Oh, she found a way.

[00:38:07] She found a way.

[00:38:09] Interesting.

[00:38:10] So was, was Donna being drunk at practice something you, you remember from that time?

[00:38:16] Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:38:17] Brie pulls up a photo and these uniforms are exactly as spectacular as they sound.

[00:38:22] Brie and Joe clearly had a lot of fun together growing up.

[00:38:25] But Brie glimpsed the dark side of Joe's home life too.

[00:38:29] What are your memories of what Joe's house was like?

[00:38:33] We would mostly stay in her room or do stuff in the kitchen.

[00:38:38] But then for the most part, we'd be outside.

[00:38:40] Like they had like a playground.

[00:38:42] I know we were a little bit old for that, but whatever.

[00:38:45] And then really just like go to the neighbor's house and like walk around and yeah.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] Never really like.

[00:38:52] Do you remember the town house?

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:54] Yeah.

[00:38:54] We were like hung out in the house a lot, but at the same time not really.

[00:38:58] We try to avoid her mom at all costs.

[00:39:01] Oh, you're like unlocking.

[00:39:03] Do you remember?

[00:39:04] Oh my God.

[00:39:05] Do you remember when we were like washing dishes and my mom was like drunk, but we were

[00:39:10] like so afraid of her.

[00:39:12] So then I made the song.

[00:39:14] Do you remember the song?

[00:39:14] I don't remember the song, but I remember the song.

[00:39:17] It was like washing dishes with Brie.

[00:39:20] It's just my friend and me doing this something very carefully.

[00:39:25] Cause if I wake up my mom, she'll drop the F-bomb and then I'll have to run till I see the

[00:39:31] bright sun.

[00:39:32] If she wakes up, she'll look and say sup.

[00:39:36] Oh my gosh.

[00:39:37] Something, something bad would happen.

[00:39:38] Yeah.

[00:39:39] Don't wake up mom.

[00:39:40] Don't wake up mom.

[00:39:40] She was usually drunk in the living room and that's where she like stayed the whole time

[00:39:46] that we, I'd be over.

[00:39:48] She never did anything.

[00:39:50] So you didn't, sounds like you didn't really have any interactions with her.

[00:39:54] Yes and no.

[00:39:55] Like I'd like, I was very cordial with her.

[00:39:59] I think she liked me and we would like, I could go in and talk and like she'd be my

[00:40:04] mom, like whatever.

[00:40:06] But I never really had like a whole lot of interaction.

[00:40:08] I really just went over there just to hang out.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:11] She was really nice to you.

[00:40:12] Like she really loved you.

[00:40:14] I was just always there.

[00:40:16] Jo, do you remember like, was there a difference with your mom's behavior when there were other

[00:40:22] people there versus when it was just you and her?

[00:40:25] Um, I mean, definitely.

[00:40:26] I think that was like always, I mean, I think Bree probably saw like.

[00:40:31] I saw some, she got really mad sometimes where it was like, you shouldn't be here.

[00:40:38] Like around adults, she was a lot nicer and normal.

[00:40:43] She tried to pretend to be normal.

[00:40:45] Yeah.

[00:40:46] Yeah.

[00:40:46] Yeah.

[00:40:47] She definitely played like the, like I'm so happy and loving and kind.

[00:40:51] Yes.

[00:40:51] I'm such a good mom.

[00:40:52] I'm such a good mom.

[00:40:54] There were other signs that something was amiss in Jo's house.

[00:40:57] But I definitely remember the kitchen meds.

[00:41:00] So many.

[00:41:02] Just like bottles of pills everywhere.

[00:41:04] Yeah.

[00:41:05] All over the counter.

[00:41:06] Yes.

[00:41:07] And like in the covers where like cups were supposed to be.

[00:41:10] Yeah.

[00:41:10] Not normal.

[00:41:10] Not normal at all.

[00:41:12] At that time, was your mom claiming that you and or her had a specific chronic illness?

[00:41:21] Um, I mean, I had severe asthma.

[00:41:24] Yeah.

[00:41:24] Oh my gosh.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:27] I forgot about that.

[00:41:29] Cause she would always like at cheer, like would be like, Jo, you can't run or you can't

[00:41:34] do this cause you have asthma.

[00:41:36] And I'd be like.

[00:41:37] I'm fine.

[00:41:38] I'm fine.

[00:41:38] Yeah.

[00:41:38] And then she'd be like, use your inhaler.

[00:41:40] And I'd be like, no, I'm not gonna like, I just have to breathe.

[00:41:43] Yes.

[00:41:44] Um, cause I thought I was like invincible.

[00:41:46] I thought I was like beating asthma.

[00:41:48] Yes.

[00:41:48] Cause I thought I had it, but I didn't.

[00:41:50] No.

[00:41:50] I didn't.

[00:41:55] For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir.

[00:41:59] It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life.

[00:42:03] It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:42:06] Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife.

[00:42:08] And now a brief message from our little bit culty sponsors.

[00:42:12] Remember when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast.

[00:42:18] Need a break from the crowded stores and endless gift list.

[00:42:22] Not really.

[00:42:23] Nope.

[00:42:23] Haven't even started shopping.

[00:42:25] Nowhere near that.

[00:42:27] And by the way, I think we could just riff without a script about the gummies.

[00:42:30] No, thanks chat.

[00:42:31] That GPT.

[00:42:32] If that's your real name anyway.

[00:42:34] Mmm, well played.

[00:42:35] Everyone knows that Nippy and I love our gummies.

[00:42:38] Loving them gummies.

[00:42:39] Gummies for really every occasion.

[00:42:41] Every occasion.

[00:42:42] Which is your favorite, Sarah?

[00:42:43] Well, during this stressful season, you can unwind and recharge with any kind of gummy.

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[00:42:59] Especially if you're home for the holidays and needing to deal with family members and you need a little bit of je ne sais quoi.

[00:43:07] Well, there's a gummy for every occasion.

[00:43:09] Exactly.

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[00:43:31] No medical card required.

[00:43:33] I'm glad it's discreet because I wouldn't want my neighbors to know that I do enjoy partaking in gummies.

[00:43:38] What's your favorite, Nip?

[00:43:40] My favorite is Cloud9 for relief and Revive for relief.

[00:43:45] And I actually like to do it before I go work out.

[00:43:47] Relief from what?

[00:43:52] You?

[00:43:54] The stress of life?

[00:43:55] Yeah.

[00:43:56] The stress of just being a dad in the world?

[00:43:59] I like to do it before I work out.

[00:44:01] Okay, so the Revive has CBD, CBG, L-theanine, which is so good for you, reishi mushrooms.

[00:44:07] I personally like the focus because we're writing this book and I can barely stay on track.

[00:44:13] Squirrel, what are we going to do now?

[00:44:14] Oh, we're writing a book.

[00:44:15] Focus makes me just hone in.

[00:44:17] It's partly, I think, the Lion's Mane and the B12 that just is like, I don't know, I've never done Adderall, but I feel like it's a natural form to keep me in the zone.

[00:44:28] They have some for some hanky-panky too.

[00:44:29] It's called High Love.

[00:44:30] Gets you in the mood.

[00:44:31] I guess we're going to save that for our date night.

[00:44:33] Yeah.

[00:44:34] So if you're 21 plus, treat yourself to 15% off with our exclusive code CULTI at viahemp.com.

[00:44:41] That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com.

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[00:45:03] I'm little, so I like to microdose.

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[00:45:07] Double dose that.

[00:45:09] This holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

[00:45:12] If you're 21 plus, head to viahemp.com and use code CULTI to receive 15% off.

[00:45:17] That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com and use code CULTI at checkout.

[00:45:22] Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.

[00:45:25] This holiday season enhance your everyday with Viah.

[00:45:28] Enjoy.

[00:45:29] How are you sleeping, Sarah?

[00:45:31] Oh, like a baby.

[00:45:32] Yeah, I noticed.

[00:45:33] I got my magnesium from Bioptimizers.

[00:45:36] Hmm.

[00:45:36] Thanks for asking.

[00:45:38] You like free stuff, do you?

[00:45:39] Duh.

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[00:47:54] Night, night.

[00:47:55] Sweet dreams.

[00:48:00] Break time's over, people.

[00:48:01] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:48:04] It's a good one.

[00:48:06] I remember my mom had a clear, like a Gatorade bottle.

[00:48:10] All the time.

[00:48:11] That had vodka in it.

[00:48:12] Yep.

[00:48:13] And it would just be sitting like on the back thing and she would always go and just take a drink.

[00:48:18] And then she had these like, these like breath strips or something that she would like take after that.

[00:48:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:48:24] Like the clear, not clear things, but yeah, the little strips.

[00:48:27] Oh.

[00:48:27] Yeah, these weird, like you like put it on your tongue.

[00:48:30] The water bottle or whatever she would put it in was like everywhere.

[00:48:34] Everywhere.

[00:48:35] She'd bring that everywhere.

[00:48:36] She always had that Gatorade bottle.

[00:48:38] And I remember one time as a kid, I was like, mom, can I have a drink of water?

[00:48:41] And she was like, no, don't touch that.

[00:48:43] And I was like so confused because I was like, I don't, okay.

[00:48:46] Like why?

[00:48:47] Yeah, like why?

[00:48:48] Jo thought their mom was better at disguising her many issues than she actually was.

[00:48:52] But the fact that she was pretty much constantly intoxicated appears to have been an open secret.

[00:48:58] I remember like the last like year or two of being friends, like it seemed like more abuse was going on.

[00:49:10] And like, I know I talked to my mom about it and was like, we need to get her out of there, blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:15] And I know at one point I was over and we were like, we need to record your mom.

[00:49:19] So like being drunk and stuff and the things she would say to her.

[00:49:23] But I guess like that was more towards the end.

[00:49:26] When you stayed towards the end, like around what age?

[00:49:30] I was like 16.

[00:49:32] I don't know when we like stopped being as close.

[00:49:35] Probably after I started dating Max.

[00:49:38] Yeah.

[00:49:38] I lost.

[00:49:39] Yeah.

[00:49:39] I lost touch with a lot of people.

[00:49:42] Yeah.

[00:49:43] Probably like 16.

[00:49:45] 15, 16.

[00:49:46] Did you, do you feel like you knew like at the time that like not all of it was real or that it like seemed dramatized?

[00:49:51] Yeah.

[00:49:51] Like, but I would have never said anything because like I didn't know anything.

[00:49:58] Yeah.

[00:49:58] I feel like when it came out that it was all a lie.

[00:50:02] I was like, yeah, I knew that.

[00:50:05] Obviously.

[00:50:06] How did you find out about?

[00:50:10] Online.

[00:50:11] Like when you did the story.

[00:50:13] The doctors.

[00:50:14] Yes.

[00:50:15] That's when it, that's when I was like, oh, okay.

[00:50:17] Yeah.

[00:50:18] That makes sense.

[00:50:19] Joe first went public with their story on social media prior to making an appearance on the CBS TV show The Doctors.

[00:50:26] We will get into that in a later episode, but this was the first time many people in Joe's life heard about the abuse that they had endured.

[00:50:34] So you weren't shocked.

[00:50:37] Mm-mm.

[00:50:38] It made things kind of fall into place for you.

[00:50:39] Yeah, definitely.

[00:50:41] None of it shocked me.

[00:50:42] Yeah.

[00:50:44] None of it shocked my mom either, which is sad because I feel like my mom didn't really like even know the full extent of it.

[00:50:50] But like she knew mom and yeah.

[00:50:55] Did you know anything about Chosen by Proxy before watching that?

[00:50:59] Mm-mm.

[00:50:59] Nope.

[00:51:00] I don't think I've ever even heard of it before, before that.

[00:51:03] So, yeah.

[00:51:05] What did it feel like to kind of have that confirmation that you were like, oh, my intuition was kind of correct of all that thing?

[00:51:12] It felt really shitty.

[00:51:13] I feel like I wish that I had known more then.

[00:51:17] Obviously, I was a teenager, so there's not much I could have done.

[00:51:20] But I felt really bad because I feel like there were signs and we knew things.

[00:51:26] And I feel like we were trying to, like, help.

[00:51:28] But I feel bad that there was no way to help, really.

[00:51:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:34] And that you were a part of it for so long.

[00:51:37] And I was a part of watching it for so long.

[00:51:41] Yeah.

[00:51:43] Shitty.

[00:51:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:45] What does that feel like to hear, too?

[00:51:49] Um, yeah.

[00:51:51] It's really a lot.

[00:51:53] I think it's, like, I mean, you were, like, my literal best friend for so long.

[00:51:58] We were, like, sisters for a long time.

[00:52:01] Yes, so long.

[00:52:02] Yes.

[00:52:03] And I think, like, you definitely knew probably the most out of literally anyone in my entire life.

[00:52:08] Yeah.

[00:52:08] And I didn't even, like, know, right?

[00:52:10] Right, yeah.

[00:52:10] So it's just, like, and like you said, like, yeah, I remember, like,

[00:52:15] trying to do, like, plotting of how, like, you could get me out of the house.

[00:52:18] Yes.

[00:52:18] Like, we knew that your mom was terrible.

[00:52:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:20] And we knew she was not a fit mother.

[00:52:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:25] And she shouldn't, yeah, but.

[00:52:27] But I still thought I was sick.

[00:52:29] Exactly, yes.

[00:52:30] Like, I still thought a lot of it was real.

[00:52:30] And at least safe for the most part.

[00:52:33] Like, she was still your mom.

[00:52:35] So she had your best interest in mind.

[00:52:38] Yeah.

[00:52:38] I'm hesitant to judge the adults surrounding Joe too harshly,

[00:52:42] but what the hell?

[00:52:44] This lady was just constantly drunk at cheer practice and no one intervened?

[00:52:49] You know, the comfort of living in a small town, which, by the way, I also do,

[00:52:54] although it's certainly not one as isolated as Hutchinson,

[00:52:56] is that people are supposed to look out for each other.

[00:52:59] Why didn't someone do something about Donna?

[00:53:10] As is often the case with these offenders, Donna was skilled at eliciting sympathy.

[00:53:14] Your mom was broken too, though.

[00:53:17] She would always, like.

[00:53:19] Be sick.

[00:53:20] Sick.

[00:53:20] Or.

[00:53:22] Like, injuring her.

[00:53:24] Injuring.

[00:53:25] Do you remember that with her?

[00:53:27] Was it like, kind of every time you had an interaction with her,

[00:53:30] was there like a, oh, I'm just my back or my thing?

[00:53:33] Something was like.

[00:53:34] Always.

[00:53:35] Yeah.

[00:53:35] Just like.

[00:53:38] It was normal.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:41] It was there.

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:44] Joe, just to the, like, question of how many meds were on hand,

[00:53:49] were you taking all of those meds?

[00:53:52] Were you taking them sporadically?

[00:53:54] Was she getting them prescribed for you and then hoarding them?

[00:53:58] Like, do you have a sense of what?

[00:53:59] I think it was pretty sporadic.

[00:54:02] Like, I, like, there were, I feel like, hundreds of, like, meds.

[00:54:06] But.

[00:54:07] Probably hoarding, not taking, like, the full doses.

[00:54:11] Yeah.

[00:54:12] Just hoarding them.

[00:54:12] Hoarding them.

[00:54:13] Lots of, like, antibiotics or, like, things like that.

[00:54:18] Yeah, I remember, like, one time my mom, like,

[00:54:23] you could see, like, when you were sitting in the living room,

[00:54:26] there was, like, a mirror that kind of, like, shined.

[00:54:28] Reflecting her.

[00:54:29] Like, you could see into the kitchen.

[00:54:30] And my mom, like, overdosed on meds, like, with vodka, like, in the kitchen.

[00:54:38] And I couldn't call the cops because I couldn't do that to her.

[00:54:42] So I, like, told my neighbors.

[00:54:44] And they, like, had to call the cops.

[00:54:46] And I had to, like, stay at their house for the night.

[00:54:48] Because my mom was just crying about how she didn't want to live

[00:54:52] and how horrible she was.

[00:54:55] Usually more about how horrible I was.

[00:54:57] I was going to say, I feel like a lot of it was you were a horrible child to her.

[00:55:03] She didn't.

[00:55:04] That was a reason she drank.

[00:55:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:06] Did she, do you say that because Joe reported that to you?

[00:55:10] Or did you actually hear her mom say that about her?

[00:55:12] Her telling me stories and seeing it firsthand.

[00:55:16] It wasn't very often that she, like, would talk like that to her.

[00:55:19] Because she put up a front, but, like, get her drunk enough.

[00:55:25] Yeah.

[00:55:26] Yeah.

[00:55:27] Definitely knew she was not a fan of you.

[00:55:29] And that you ruined her.

[00:55:31] I ruined her.

[00:55:32] Yeah.

[00:55:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:55:33] Which to me back then was, like, how?

[00:55:36] You were the best.

[00:55:38] Like, I don't understand.

[00:55:40] She, like, does everything for you.

[00:55:42] Everything she does is because she wants to please you.

[00:55:45] What Brie says about Joe here really hits me.

[00:55:49] Because Joe is the best.

[00:55:51] They're always looking out for everyone around them.

[00:55:53] And Joe and I know a lot of people in common.

[00:55:56] Everyone loves them now.

[00:55:58] It's not a surprise to me to hear that everyone actually loved Joe growing up.

[00:56:02] But before this trip, I know that Joe believed the opposite.

[00:56:06] Their mom told them over and over again that they were a bad kid.

[00:56:11] So they thought that everyone else must think so, too.

[00:56:14] That's the influence that our parents have on us.

[00:56:16] The things they tell us about ourselves, for better or worse, bury themselves pretty deep.

[00:56:26] So, Joe, I'm really interested in the way that you just phrased that.

[00:56:29] Where you said, I didn't call the police because I couldn't do that to her.

[00:56:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:35] Why did you think...

[00:56:38] Because I think calling 911 would be, like, the most normal response.

[00:56:42] Like, what did you...

[00:56:44] Did you feel that was somehow a betrayal of your mom?

[00:56:46] Yeah.

[00:56:47] I mean, it goes to what you just said.

[00:56:48] Like, I...

[00:56:50] I, like, really thought I was, like, the problem.

[00:56:52] Like, I really...

[00:56:53] It's, like, at times, like, yeah, I would, like, look for the alcohol.

[00:56:56] But it was because I wanted...

[00:56:57] I thought if I could, like, take the alcohol from her,

[00:57:00] then she would, like, stop drinking and be nicer.

[00:57:02] And, like, I always just thought that, like, yeah, I was the problem.

[00:57:07] I was why she drank.

[00:57:09] I mean, she said if she...

[00:57:10] If I wasn't alive, she would stop drinking.

[00:57:13] So, like, I don't know what else I'm supposed to believe.

[00:57:17] And, yeah, she would always just say that I was, like, this bad kid.

[00:57:20] And even with everything going on, like, all I wanted was her to love me.

[00:57:26] Approve.

[00:57:26] Approve me.

[00:57:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:57:27] For me to be enough.

[00:57:35] There were times that when the cops were called,

[00:57:39] several times throughout my life because of her drinking.

[00:57:43] And they...

[00:57:43] Because, like, they would have to take her to the hospital and whatever

[00:57:46] to, like, detox and stuff.

[00:57:48] And my extended family would come over, like, that day.

[00:57:52] And then they would have me show them where all the pills

[00:57:55] and all the alcohol were.

[00:57:56] And then they would throw all of it out.

[00:57:59] Not in the garbage outside because we knew that she would, like,

[00:58:02] dive in the dumpster.

[00:58:02] So we'd have to, like, bring it to someone else's house.

[00:58:06] But then that's when they would, like, have me go stay at, like,

[00:58:09] my uncle's house or something because they knew, like,

[00:58:12] when my mom got home from the hospital, like,

[00:58:14] she would literally kill me because it would be my fault.

[00:58:18] Even though, like, I was just doing what I was asked to do by my family.

[00:58:24] And, like, I always felt really weird about it all because I didn't understand,

[00:58:27] like, the alcohol or the pills or, like, any of that sort of stuff.

[00:58:30] But I wanted her to feel better.

[00:58:32] So, like, I would help.

[00:58:35] But I knew I would get in so much trouble.

[00:58:40] Joe's mom, Donna, was clearly struggling with addiction

[00:58:43] and with her own mental health issues.

[00:58:45] But it doesn't excuse her actions.

[00:58:47] Someone should have protected Joe and held Donna accountable.

[00:58:51] And yet, when adults in Joe's life did try to help,

[00:58:54] they met with dead ends.

[00:58:55] And those times when Joe attempted to reach out for help on their own,

[00:58:59] it often backfired.

[00:59:00] My mom taught Sunday school, and I grew up in a, like,

[00:59:04] Missouri Senate Lutheran church.

[00:59:07] And once she stopped teaching Sunday school, we stopped going to church.

[00:59:12] But I started going to church with my neighbors.

[00:59:15] And I had gone a little bit with some other people before this.

[00:59:18] But I started going with my neighbors to an evangelical free church.

[00:59:22] And I really liked it there.

[00:59:24] But I guess maybe because that was when I was a teenager.

[00:59:29] I was probably 14-ish.

[00:59:33] And so that's when I started to kind of break away from my mom a little bit.

[00:59:37] And I think she felt threatened by that.

[00:59:40] High school is the first time I ever told anyone anything that was happening in my home.

[00:59:45] Prior to that, when I started getting more involved with church,

[00:59:48] where I started, I opened up to my neighbors and my youth leader for Youth for Christ.

[00:59:54] He was the first person I ever told anything that was happening.

[00:59:57] But all these people then that started to be in my life that were involved in church

[01:00:02] started to think I was making up illnesses and stuff.

[01:00:08] So then they started to use the Bible against me.

[01:00:11] And they would always use this quote,

[01:00:13] Do you want to be well?

[01:00:15] Then pick up your mat and walk.

[01:00:17] And they would always use that as, like, it was my choice to be healthy.

[01:00:21] And I would always do these testimonies at church and, like, through these little groups I was in

[01:00:26] where I would talk about how sinful I was and how bad I was and how God saved me.

[01:00:31] And it wasn't until getting out of that state, like, literally getting out of Minnesota,

[01:00:37] that I was able to, like, really wrestle with religion and really deconstructing religion.

[01:00:43] But I had to do so much.

[01:00:46] And I still struggle with this concept of, like, I'm evil and bad.

[01:00:50] Because, one, I learned that that was just, like, my core beliefs because of what was going on in my home

[01:00:55] and how I was, like, taking in how people were reacting to me.

[01:00:59] But then, two, I was told, you know, the Bible says you're born sinful.

[01:01:03] And, like, you can only, like, be good if Jesus is in your heart.

[01:01:08] And so I just always, like, had all these messages that were just thrown at me that I was the bad one.

[01:01:16] You can tell, even from a quick drive through town, that in terms of places in Hutchinson that one might go to for support,

[01:01:23] the choices were going to be the church or the church across the street.

[01:01:27] And Joe quickly realized any help those institutions might offer came with big strings attached.

[01:01:33] I kept thinking, as we were driving around this town, about that country song that came out last year,

[01:01:39] Try That in a Small Town by G. Snell Dean.

[01:01:42] Thought about how this song sounded to some people like a patriotic love letter to tight-knit communities

[01:01:47] where people take care of each other.

[01:01:49] And it sounded to others like a sinister warning to people who might try and stand up for themselves

[01:01:54] in a place where they're not welcome.

[01:01:57] And the truth is, we saw this duality in the story that we covered in season two.

[01:02:01] It was, in part, I believe, the tight-knit nature of the community surrounding Alyssa Weyburn,

[01:02:07] the victim in that case, that finally brought her abuser to justice

[01:02:11] and landed Alyssa ultimately in a safe and loving home.

[01:02:14] And you would hope that people in a place where everyone knows each other

[01:02:18] would really look out for one another.

[01:02:20] But maybe it can make situations like Joe's worse.

[01:02:24] Maybe it's easier to report on a person you suspect is abusing their child

[01:02:28] if you're not going to see that person every single day at the grocery store for the rest of your life.

[01:02:33] Maybe insularity breeds its own kind of silence.

[01:02:36] Or maybe a town of any size is only as good as the people in it.

[01:02:46] Next time, we'll take a closer look at Joe's home life from the person who lived it with them.

[01:02:52] Because mom's favorite phrase growing up is,

[01:02:54] I brought you into this world, I can take you out.

[01:03:00] Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop.

[01:03:04] Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gossett.

[01:03:07] Greta Stromquist is our associate producer.

[01:03:10] And administrative support from Nola Karmouche.

[01:03:13] Music provided by Johnny Nicholson and Joel Shupak.

[01:03:16] With additional music and sounds from SoundSnap.

[01:03:19] Additional music by Jason Shaw from Free Music Archive.

[01:03:23] Thanks to Cadence 3 for recording support.

[01:03:26] Special thanks this week to Jen Becker, Brianna Garrity,

[01:03:30] and the many people of Hutchinson who welcomed us into their homes and workplaces.

[01:03:33] If you'd like to support the show,

[01:03:37] the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon,

[01:03:42] where you can get all episodes early and ad-free,

[01:03:45] along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from this season,

[01:03:49] as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month.

[01:03:53] If monetary support is not an option,

[01:03:56] rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen helps a great deal.

[01:04:00] And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show,

[01:04:03] please do share it.

[01:04:04] Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.

[01:04:08] For more, you can now find us on YouTube,

[01:04:10] where we have all of our episodes as well as bonus video content.

[01:04:24] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty?

[01:04:26] Then please do give us a rating, a review,

[01:04:29] and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

[01:04:32] Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it.

[01:04:36] Maybe they're in a cult.

[01:04:37] Maybe they're a little bit susceptible.

[01:04:39] Just share the love.

[01:04:41] Thanks!

[01:04:45] Want to hear more?

[01:04:46] You're in luck.

[01:04:47] Season 4 premiered over the summer,

[01:04:49] and you can binge the whole season now.

[01:04:51] We at A Little Bit Culty are big fans of this podcast.

[01:04:54] Head over to Nobody Should Believe Me on your podcast platform and give it a listen.

[01:05:16] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[01:05:19] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames,

[01:05:22] in collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[01:05:24] Our co-creator is Jess Templtardi.

[01:05:27] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios,

[01:05:29] and our writing and research is done by Emma Deal and Kristen Reeder.

[01:05:32] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.